Exmormon Conference 2016 Panel Discussion

good morning to brave souls that got up on the Sunday morning to come here we usually basically have the people on Sunday morning who I've stated in the hotel there's with the best of intentions a lot of people don't drive back for this but it's always a fun meeting to have before we start does anyone have any issues questions anything that's first-timers or seen that happen but yeah they're going to call the cabs and pay for them so just make those rings just with the front desk and plenty of time to get through and you need to anything else you know it's it's a labor of love there's no question there's times when it's very stressful one of the things I didn't share with you guys this week is that about a month and a half ago - almost two months I tore both my rotator cuff and it's pretty painful so I've been on meds all weekend mostly - but there are some times I have to take something out here written I've got to see the doctor when I get home I kept putting it off because I thought he'll put me in a sling or it'll do something and I don't want to go down there was one arm so anyway so we're ready to begin and I thought what I would do it would be to start with the people here at the front if any of you have anything you want to add of a personal nature or whatever that you didn't have in your presentation and we can start with that we'll start with the audience but does anybody have you just want to wait for your questions mark preppy guys just a quick reminder that obvi obviously I'm very lucky to have met all of you this weekend it's been life-changing for me we are making a documentary Brandon's back there it's called latter-day glory the movie comm if you want to check out the teaser and we are accepting donations for the cost of the film but we're not expecting that we're very very very grateful for all of the people that have approached us interested in being interviewed and telling their stories so thanks again for the love and support that you've given us questions burning through their brain after yesterday I have one for max I'll start that from having read the books I know that your relationship with your parents was very difficult and I haven't heard just speak too much about well what was it like towards the end of their lives did you ever reconcile or did they ever get get you to understand you my dad my dad caught on oh boy this is a tough question this early in the morning yeah my dad my dad softened after burning himself out on Church work he ended up with some serious medical problems and learned the family and didn't indeed was first and yeah we we reconciled my mother the whatever whatever illness she was suffering from lessened as she grew older and she softened to and we we had good relationships and then but I was far as my father was concerned I know that we wouldn't truly record reconcile until he died and saw that the Mormon Church was a piece of now we can talk we don't have the church between us anymore and for two weeks after he died I drove around my neighborhood my area and the country of Northwest Jersey showed him my house I showed him on my favorite places I showed him the little Porsche replica that I'd built took him for rides in that I sat one day i sat in the parking lot of Bulow's and just yelled at him and he was okay with that too he understood but finally finally after his death that was was father-to-son with nothing between us and that was just such a feeling of peace I just remember people have asked me for my slides no I understand that we put it up on the expert women foundation website I do have one hard copy here by the way up them that I printed out before so if someone once throws like we got to pass them off the slides will be incorporated into the video that they took and it does it goes up on YouTube that's smaller and foundation Laden channel and that's where you can find all the talks we're still working on last year's because we had a just a real problem we're afraid that our cameras with everything those film we're lost are we finding kind of hold I'm just about three or four weeks ago so they'll go on hopeful first and soon thereafter this year's I hope we asked other people questions too but I have one for max also in your longer talk last night you said there's a point where you said you stayed far away from writing and I can't remember what part of the sequence of your life that was and you probably do but my question is did you stay away from writing because you felt like you weren't in the right frame of mind to do it well at that time or was it a kind of self punishment if you understand what I mean that was doing that was during my reinstatement period and I guess four years after that that I felt writing somehow had been responsible for for my excommunication writing made me a bad boy and I wanted to learn it deliveres Mormon again after I was rebaptised I stayed in engineering for probably six years and then it simply I simply couldn't subjugate it anymore it just started coming through and I found myself angry I found myself ecstatic as I started to write again I knew I wasn't that good I mean I was coming from engineering school I could I could work a fluid dynamics problem but I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't extemporize about literature or writing or anything like that I said into you in transition though right Sam that's trying to do that's great today did I answer your question yes probably one no it's causing his writer's block we'll be in touch right okay so I have a two-part question first is for these alpha and shelf people and that is what advice can you give all of us to handle the guilt and frustration of not having as much fun as you guys seem to be ready and then and then for Jeremy if you can talk a little bit about maybe some of the thought that went into how you did your excommunication and what you learned from it and if there's anything you would have done differently or any advice you would give to other people who may see that as a pattern for something that they want to follow my best advice is just party harder in all honesty just everyone everyone leading always has rough times and even though we had a lot of fun there's plenty of nights where I'm just so frustrated because either my parents aren't getting it or I mean I'm right after we left I had a buddy call me and he told me he saw demons around me and stuff over the phone I Magoo face time anything so but but it's just like people is frustrating so you know we definitely have a good time but you you get what to want to out of life and we're just trying to focus on good so focus on the good when you can and when there's a shitty day just drink I'm just kidding you could also get cats so the answer to your question is I am a like I'm a very freedom oriented individual and I just didn't like the victim victimization stylized communications that were happening in the last couple of years that the church has the power and it's taking the power away from me from the individual so I just wanted to figure out a way to turn it around and you know I think the fine spaghetti monster and you know you came into my life and by the way like John steer came came in and we've spoken over the phone and he was he was shamed about like this guy's an expert on the church handbook of instructions so he's I think you know business in that mess on my cliche and yeah I'm going with it around the church it takes away their power to basically [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] they can't force you thinking about the excerpt II read last night about the where the where shake is we're teaching family I just love the brilliant way that through this little boy's eyes you Illustrated the pain of the mother the young poor mother and the damage done to the mother and to this boy seeing it and then seeing his father's reaction you know and all of those people illustrating the damage observing this I thought it was just so it's just a really amazing way to my question is with regard to dealing with family members like your family of origin or your spouse maybe I want insights on what's worked for you not just ones like it was a Jeremy did you say like your dad came around and he's really supporting you how do you balance their toxicity to you protecting yourself what's worked what hasn't worked that's kind of what I'm looking for and you absolutely unconditionally accept perhaps address you as well relationship which i think is which I was talking about focus on the feelings that causes them feel uncomfortable and that's not the intent but again two years six months two months it's all service much like I think I mentioned yesterday we just take them for their service and saying which is my point is that I passed on that but it was simple it was to me [Music] [Music] about my past especially right after Manish in the first few years [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] that's fine [Music] [Music] [Music] otherwise to do with nieces and nephews reaching out to me contact anyone myself that I have them contact to me and talk about going to cut themselves after church after church and I'm not contacting anybody they reached out to me from nieces and nephews that are breaking down and I mean a really hard time and the parents almost 30 so the ones that are reaching out 25 to 16 so I have an aunt who left the church just decades ago and she's kind of ostracized by the rest of my mom's family and she's comfortable hanging out with and she is great and that is a lifesaver for us and she seriously is just it's it's it's what it's you feel like all your family doesn't get it to have that person that does give it is a huge deal I think she's gotten crap from my mom I think my mom's kind of been upset which that that we go see her and that she's to open and talk to us and I think that the same way and so I don't want to pretend to know what your situation is but if you can be there for them it's a heat it's a huge deal for them and it makes it it's a huge drama from some of your family members because you're there as a support system but it's beneficial to those people very much so when I was about 23 I had worked in Seattle [Music] I was already has attempted suicide because of present and you know before she had graduated high school so I left her side [Music] [Music] because for the first time in my life I was actually truly standing up for myself and so if you continue to do that and stand up for your nieces and nephews they're gonna recognize eventually that even though they're disappointing their parents or your sisters or brothers they're doing something genuinely for [Applause] [Music] the church I was gonna be able to share my message and it would affect other people I just needed to give it to myself and [Music] when my boyfriend [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] so given the field I'm going into the very first thing you do is safety people have to be safe and your relatives are not safe and they need to be safe and it doesn't matter if anything destroys relationship with the siblings but you know they're hurting and people keep a cut because they're in so much pain and they don't know what to do and it relieves the pain some of them most of them are not intending to kill themselves but sometimes they kill themselves on accident suicide attempts and some of those to the point that now it's dangerous like she said they're killing people hurting people and Mormons can't see it you can see it they aren't even gonna see that their kids are really in danger and their kids are scared to tell them they feel like cutting themselves but to tell you and the Mormons have there tried to have what they need those kids don't that's why they're telling you and serious so number one always [Music] [Music] [Music] and so to express in my mind using metaphor of some sort is going to help them recognize maybe via another child or another situation that they've been and the stance that that your nieces and nephews take and the reason that there's you know you know mentally emotionally psychologically you don't have a connection to spirituality anymore you're just fighting as yourself and cutting yourself or doing whatever it is to demonization of who you think so and he's called me several times my answer will be until the church has something a place meaningful to address his concerns over something in place meaningful to address his or her concerns until until you would rather come to me that come to you I'm going to be there for them when you do have something meaningful I can't tell you can even be more basic than that and say to this whoever's calling you my son whatever is basic is when someone seeks my help I'm gonna respond I'm coming from a place of love [Music] [Music] [Music] because I loved you first because I lost the single suicide and I know what that is like I wish it was different but I'm glad they have you to go to and they call us all the time one of them I didn't know they were out they didn't know I was out one of them saw me comment on John villains Facebook and texted me and said I saw your comment and I might oh crap the guess we should talk and then you know so but I just told them I do this because I love them they're all adults they can choose and who they talk to and I will be a safe place as long as they need one I think it's time [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] right now the problem with that of course I think is that now that makes it that firms up their position makes it sort of a revelation in their view and then makes it a little tougher to come back from but I mean good communications people work that it's more difficult because everything's documented nowadays everything's out there so you know it can be it can be call back the bottom line is this you know Communications is there to support operations so to speak [Music] all will be accepted I'm talking from a sexual orientation perspective which is what surprised me eleven months ago because I thought we were going in a soft blender transition to make a mistake and then softly transition back from the communications perspective because just two questions answers you have after this life the usual answers that answer any question so bottom line though is this communications you know it's my passion who cares about the communications if they actually pull the policy back Louis just as example my mom exists because of confusion in the household from the children which is what she's been taught to get me to KY my partner she's ecstatic about it and they said you know we want to have kids she's ecstatic about it and I said well what if my kid wants to go to church with you I'm gonna allow that because I love my mom and I know that she would be ecstatic to have her grandchild go to church on occasion I was like well what if my fourteen-year-old daughter wants to get baptized and has been going to church with you and enjoys the gospel and decides and I give her for free whereas my child to do so and that was the first time that she was like this is that doesn't feel good to me sorry to go twice but I'm interested because we think of the church and the big PR machine that they have now and everything when you look at church history like what's sort of waiting to give Joseph Smith as a PR communicator handling all the controversies like when you look back on what he did and at work like how do you see it from our PR communication perspective Joseph Smith I don't think he was big an issue back because I think information travels much more slowly so you could say something crazy today you actually had witnesses and even then maybe the witnesses were delusional who knows right so he was certainly charismatic he was certainly very influential leaders sexual I just don't think he had to manage the issues in the same way that [Music] in recent decades the church has been you know sort of taken back by the pushback they have gotten and it had to had to develop a PR machine a good one I'm gonna say good not that I think what they're putting out is good management of issues when you look at what they're managing is a little bit an odd sometimes some of the issues they deal with but dance you so to answer your question from a PR perspective doing a much smaller world like today just wouldn't happen like that today you send missionaries over to England to bring people back and you tell them that she ate and they don't find that hotel they're over in Utah and they haven't got any money your ability to get back to England so guess what you know they join them where they go that wouldn't happen today in the information age so it's completed two completely different areas just on the edge and and so we were dealing with the extent of web communications and online communications that we are today [Music] just cannot today and no doubt Joseph Smith and other church leaders did it's easier to destroy a printing press than the Internet very good point so kind of on the same vein I want to say thank you to each one of you I one of my key takeaways from this this conference is that each of you has come to this group and shared your gifts and talents with us it's this amazing sense of humor and videography and amazing topics that you YouTube and to insights and provoking questions introducing us to some of the communication skills and some of the the things that are going on in public communications that when you take a step back and you can say oh this is actually a science and you realize that it isn't inspired it's actually and what they're doing is in all sorts of organizations you can kind of take some of the emotion out of it and to share painful stories and being able to share that perspective looking back and being able to take those lessons from it and just helping us understand other perspectives and appreciating and loving each other for just who we are I just want to say thank you what do you see over the course of the next year what are some of the things that you predict in the future that will be discussing this time next year with each other my whole life is going to change [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] that's the Johnson said practically speaking practically speaking [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] I see the rescue truck was able to get decades and decades of building himself strength-wise numbers-wise just couldn't that's history so they've got a very strong established base over the weekend for that kind of money you can buy a lot of truth a lot of reality but you can buy a lot of truth and you can buy an awesome communications machine you can put huge amounts of money into web and online communications which they do so for that reason I see the church around [Music] it's going to have to change significantly policy from last November they'll just stop talking about it because another way sometimes organizations they they don't necessarily cancel the news conference or put out a news release and cancel something they just sort of tuck it in away and don't talk about it anymore that way you don't have to announce it but they don't get beyond they get far less bad publicity and I think you'll see a lot you can see with a number of other controversial issues the conversation is changing especially in the church there's there's more acceptance of the facts yes Joseph Smith he's a rock a rock and a half to translate the Book of Mormon like it's no longer in the end time one and why it's a fact so that's a really fascinating thing that's going on another thing noticing is in the apology world that you have guys like Patrick Mason saying like he's acknowledging the facts and he's you know we're moving away from a fair warming McDonald style apologetics to a richer person in the dominant narrative it's not true it can't be sustained we have to reconstruct the narrative so that that conversations very fascinating so combine this with the the emergency of all these suicides happening all these PR disasters I just see this big train wreck that coming within five years I mean I just don't see this the circus being sustainable I just see this this cloud I may be the oddball here but I think this year we're finally going to get all that archaeological evidence we've been hearing so much about maybe some DNA evidence I on a serious note I was talking about this last night I think this will be the year that we discover whether elder David a button are secretly a lizard person in disguise or a robot in disguise like the younger generations don't have the same obsessiveness it seems about the church like when we told Connor siblings were leaving they were able to be very accepting of that and the narrative now is like just sort of people and that wasn't necessarily the case in practice in the past so I guess I mean people are obviously gonna keep leaving I feel that we've been treated since we left the church there's been so many big PR scandals since we left it's like every few months there's a new thing and there's tons of people living in terms of people messaging us saying that they have all these doubts and yeah so I guess it's just gonna keep on being a shitstorm that's gonna be exciting to watch I think here goes I feel like the church is like the one for the organization but they are stuck with Joseph Smith and the restored gospel and the only true church and they really can't jump off that for the reasons you mentioned things are putting out that in the way that will allow them to communicate like many other organizations they can't sort of step out and sort of acknowledge that directly they can but theme of the old guys are not going to do that so that's a very good point the money the big money most of the big money is what is with the folks that aren't as young and so they the face it is all it is all based on money but that comparison might be in 1890 to 1904 after the declaration or revelation on cancelling polygamy which was very much influenced by of course the US Army on the edge of Utah to seize property but I digress you know the today but at that point they had to transition between the celestial pizza bowl to into a new principle and they were doing with two audiences in doing that now they've somewhat successfully the seer stone and and the old truth and the new tricks it's a very tricky playing right now to retain as many members and as much revenue as they can they recognize no doubt in my mind and in their board meetings they recognize they're going to take a hit they're just trying to minimize that hit [Music] speaking in good communications I have a question I appreciated what you were saying about pushing back on the word apostates and so speaking of glorious apostates my question is for self on the shelf I want to know how the word apostates because I'm sure you've run into that [Applause] everyone but for me it's and reshape in their mind that label actually means rather than trying to get them to change their label so I say yes prostate is by definition someone who leaves their belief and that's exactly what I am so I'm an apostate but I'm not so happy and I'm also a good person and so rather than trying to just change the whole story I just changed the way that they see it and I checked it with a prostate comes from the Greek for escaped slave [Music] so if you embrace prostate to you the prostate truth-seeker if you frame it that way trained to help you and intimidate you if you take that away you can reframe it to audiences internal which is and then the rest of the world ok and what the impact of the root of positive has externally before you sort of the decision perhaps but looking more broadly from the communications perspective but certainly that that's another way of approaching it is just to soften how people see and look at the word apostate you can reframe them for sure the word atheist you tell someone so helping clarify terms and sometimes the tubes aren't correct and also for mark I like our image problem is X moments bigger all walks of life a lot of us come to atheism or some kind of agnosticism but a lot of people don't so our message is more scattered I think and we let the church paint we are just by just by the fact that we're by nature as apostates disorganized you know and and they are extremely organized and funded specifically I was really inspired by Lyndon Lambourne and the reason why I [Music] because you know all the time but if you're not hearing it like people who stand up to the church hostile like they're coming up to you because you're speaking out about your doubts and concerns so a natural consequence of that is to bring up the issues like you know I have a concern that judges need 14 year old I don't we get away from that just by the very nature of the court and the charges that are being placed against you silvers down playing micro derive one of the charges against me as I were speaking against the proper charge of Smith I was attempting to discredit the Prophet Joseph Smith so in my defense I was pointing to the essays I'm not discrediting judges the church's essays are discrediting Joseph Smith does that make sense I think it's important to talk about those details [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] and my point on that because I think you guys can use well Tony agree what which I'm saying there first of all I have a lot thanks for racing especially a former Belgian buses and the church has a that they do have a centralized machine machine necessarily want that it's about freedom not about walking us into some other organization but in terms of you know sort of the communications piece for example talking points that seem to be fairly well accepted that they keep it simple because I think [Music] it's evolved over time organizations [Music] social issues in public policy but that leads to compassion and all the negative stuff so that positive spin that counting that negative perception that they try that the Church of trying to paint on it and this is a social media [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] one day and night the same day that I posted about the churches and he thought it was okay but he had no idea a book of abraham i say you didn't know what to look for he didn't know the question asked and the social media [Music] [Music] I'd like to add to the comments I don't know any more have been coming for him he was singing in the choir but some general authority called and said you have somebody in your ward who's you know etc and at the time some works well I'm gonna go to the excommunication and I said well ok but I got the whole set of procedures no and I said I'm gonna go there and I will present you but of course as they found out that the person that was presenting him was also sleeping with him they said wait a minute we need to call you in this court - I went there still somewhat of a believer in God and concepts of Spirit of God and so I did what I think my community - I came there instead of being on the attack acknowledged that they were these shepherds of the flock that they were doing something that they were compelled to do but that also that I believe that they understood that if we approached is right perhaps we can give our hearts to listen with the spirit in mind and it was like but what I had done is I had prepared some comments and some pictures and what was so interesting is at the end I think there was one guy who was like the Brit Cape back when it was the first counselor and he was out of there and about eleven idea there's lined up in shipping errands and some were crying and when was a judge and he said I will never allow why shacks we shared the story of a seminary student to in class so this is a long time in the 90s and the seminary teacher was basically condoning comments that well you know very anti-gay comments I didn't wait was my son and I just shared the story and did something and this judge said to me you know I will never ever allow even such a thing to happen in my forum so what I'm saying is I took it as an opportunity as best as I could to get them off at advances and do what I could to educating acknowledging that they had to do what they had to do the end state president came up he said the church needs people like you on high councils and in state presidencies and I have to do what I have to do I mean that was mind blowing so you can always turn it into a platform to make a difference [Applause] so I just want a second the whole idea of the power of social media the net kind of has provided information and so on stuff throughout the history there but then it also provides a way for us to find each other and find each other online is awesome and and there's a lot of support others see us finding each other and others see that there's there's a movement afoot everyone in the church knows someone who once you actually knew someone in your life this kind of thing you could categorize off now it has an impact on your life so anyway that was just a comment about what we were discussing earlier shift the topic really quick there's a guy named Tyler blend his head in trash he shakes [Music] it's called excommunication is [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] absolutely no consistency that they see to John delenn and others and Jeremy and that you know it took a while I think it didn't just happen overnight certainly with John Delaney went on for a long time and now there's all kinds of way no process until eventually right or wrong for them they was best for the corporation they determined that they would rather take the hit of excommunicating John for the benefit and the same thing with the yeah you know at some point beneficial to them so they're really what they do a pros and cons it's very no doubt in my mind it's very corporate they they they weigh the potential damage in public opinion and negative publicity versus the benefits to them because unlike you know the September sakes and John Delaney and Kelly you know that after specifically history or doctrine or star fees for my perception he's really pissed off for with the policy it there I could see if the church is gonna go after him they're gonna they're gonna beat around the bush and try to find some personal saying like you know homosexuality or whatever I just don't I just it's a really fascinating case I I kind of I kind of have my suspicions that Kylie wants BS communicating I'm just speculating here so from yesterday when Jeremy was presenting self on the shelf was trying to excommunicate Jeremy miles before it was cool we saw as a really good PR like if Jeremy would get so many people how would you feel about a mom is not at all [Music] I mean 10 years he went or do you women he's gone Kate's gone you have to have Tyler staying downtown with a purple umbrella the other hat press I'm warming story Simon thing can you see at all [Music] is gonna cause notice if I choose to get excommunicated instead of resign if I choose to go through the process of becoming excommunicated and instead of just resigning the way sheet is that they could be worried about how the world perceives you I mean if you communicated it can be kind of a negative thing especially in the community so the way I saw was I just didn't want I wanted to take power in my own hands I see as communication being a victim victimization versus when you resign it's an empowerment so just depends on meanings externally I would suggest that there's the new excommunicated who's that what did you do wrong the answer is probably nothing okay well quickly I loved your response to where we go and I can as was amazing so if you haven't read that one you need to write his as well you know eight years ago the Republican Party seriously underestimated the power of social media and the Obama the Obama campaign leveraged it all the way to the White House and yes the I work as a photographer for the church and I was part of the PR machine and they do have that organized PR machine and that's their biggest disadvantage because they don't know where to shoot if we had one organization they would just name at that now they've got they've got they've got Patriots popping up all over shooting at the Redcoats and they don't know where to shoot and if we want an organization they could they would be humanize us we wouldn't be individuals we would just be a mass a faceless mass that they're aiming at I agree so that's that's the power that the actual Mormon community has is we are not organized they can't just go after one they got is that you need a centralized message is supported by centralized talking points they can come from all kinds of different directions yes and they continue to give those to us they just they just hand them to us and the things that you write and the things that Jeremy and the responses every time fair Mormon goes after Jeremy they just hate it so that's I just I want to thank every one of you because you guys are kind of our heroes and when I've struggled for 40 years and thought I was the only one in the world that had the doubts I had when I found them it was the water in the desert and it's just gotten better and better and better and I will go wherever I want [Applause] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Laughter] [Music] that of course means the friends I've made here mixed you right now just some such a mix of emotion from having gotten to hear your stories and having my story shared with you I couldn't separate any of the mountain define which which was which programs together sometimes I'm going just on a hunch [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] but I do think they're gonna have to change and that's all this today you know I am I'm gonna end the session now but you know welcome to stay and talk to them and here is some people planes to catch and so forth and so on so thank you again for your participation [Applause]

Channel: ExmormonFoundation

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Length: 104min 18sec (6258 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 01 2018