Exclusive: Sonia Gandhi Full Interview With Rajdeep Sardesai

[Music] hello and welcome to this India today's special coming to you from the courtyard at the Swaraj Bhavan in a lab at the birthplace of Indira Gandhi the former Indian Prime Minister whose centenary celebrations have begun this week and joining us today is a very special guest someone who knew mrs. Gandhi intimately a Congress president Sonia Gandhi appreciate ma'am you're joining us and talking to us about Indira Gandhi let me start at the start the first time that you met Indira Gandhi you remember it absolutely and very well she was in London on the way back from New York I think she had gone for two for the opening of the narrow exhibition in New York it was 1965 and my pal Raju ji had already written to her that he had met this girl from Italy we liked very much and she asked him to bring him bringing me along to meet me she wanted to meet me so a date was decided and from Cambridge Rajiv sort of Raja she drove me down and just a little while before we enter the city I got cold feet and I said no I can't I can't I cannot meet your mother I will not and I didn't she was already prime minister at the time no she had this another 1965 so it was just before she became pregnant yes so then he had to excuse himself and say to his mother that he couldn't take me that he had to change the time and then the next day I finally said yes I will okay I will I will make your mother why were you frightened those meeting mrs. Indira Gandhi I suppose you know mothering laws are rather frightening figures especially even more for mothering laws to be possibly to be at that stage and then when I saw her when I met her she was seeing at a high Christmas place I mean I was of course terribly nervous but pleasantly surprised because she was perfectly natural I was a little long as I said nervous I couldn't speak English very well very much at that time and so she conversed with me in French and when she obviously saw that I was terribly nervous she told me don't be afraid I was young too and in love and I understand I understand you that absolutely that born over completely so the first conversation between Indira Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi and French yes and she bored you at the quality that then appealed to you the ability that she had to reach out to you even though his game in a sense from a different culture and she made you feel at home almost instantly absolutely in fact well I came from a completely different culture completely different background and when it was decided well it was with our longest process because then after I met her a few months later Roger D returned to India and before returning to India I came to meet my father and asked him if he would agree to his daughter marry him then we were away from each other for about a year and my father sort of relented it was he saw Rajiv and he said I know this man is a good man but he was more worried about his daughter because he felt that going so far away to a place completely different completely different with different customs he felt that perhaps I would not be able to cuff him to get used to to these new ways so he agreed to give me a return ticket to India and back I was supposed to stay for two weeks and three for myself but then my mother-in-law felt in fact he spoke to the two of us she said well if you have decided that you're sure that you love each other then it's better if you go ahead and get married but when she was Prime Minister that was yes by then she was so the most Prime Minister so that was actually did Sheen when when you came to India for the first time and lived with mrs. Gandhi what was she like at home I first so first I lived with mrs. Bachchan till my engagement in marriage and then of course I moved to softer general route when I lived with my mother-in-law what was Indira Gandhi like at home because the outside world saw Indira Gandhi as this stuff some even said dictatorial she was could be like a quickly the opposite completely the opposite completely the opposite yes she was give me an example of what was she like at home I mean was she someone who questioned I thought she was the lady of the house she was but at the same time in a very gentle and sort of understanding way at least with me I suppose she she understood my difficulties so you know for coming into her into her home not knowing the culture the custom the language even English for that matter what is I mean like really angry no by that time I could make myself understood in English but she was completely completely opposite of what people sort of used to see as she was very warm very kind she would make sure that you know I would I would be I would be given the kind of things that I liked to eat she was you know she was well very just like any other mother so it was not a traditional sauce bahu relationship because you know over the years the stereotype which perhaps influenced you to be frightened of indira gandhi's that the mother-in-law daughter-in-law relationship can be a tough one yes well it can be certainly so everywhere in the world not only in England as a young girl then I was frightened because that was the situation even in the country from in my own baby never made you feel like an outsider not that you know that you are someone who needs to did she sort of insist that you adjust to Indian culture she was a very intelligent woman as as you would agree and she allowed me space and time to get used to to these two new ways what work for me completely new ways new food new way of dressing so she allowed me the space of course I mean occasionally she would say well maybe you know perhaps instead of this bat but always you know in a manner which would make me want to do so rather than force me because I was told she kept a very very good table she was very clear about what people should have for lunch for dinner Indira Gandhi as you say outside the world of politics was very much make up yes absolutely she was what and she sort of taught you and took you through the whole process is it yes yes of course and there were two or she had a personal secretary and and a social secretary I used to refer to them to the three of them as my three mother-in-law's because they would also help me along in the ways of of the of the home or Indian ways what influence did she have over your politics and life I mean even now 32 years after she's passed away how much has she influenced your politics in your life your entire transition to India and then taking that big step into politics was Indira Gandhi the person who's influenced you at all times in in the moves that you've made in your life well I wouldn't have I wouldn't be in politics if if I wasn't my daughter-in-law but when you when you when you had to take tough decisions in life have you thought of her I mean you had to take a lot of tough decisions in life your decision not to become Prime Minister in 2000 the tough decision was the first one was when whether to join politics or not I did not want to join politics and as probably is known I did not want my husband to join politics he was not keen to join politics he was very happy as a pilot we are our own pace our own life and but it's precisely because of a certain beauty that I felt towards my mother-in-law and my husband because I saw them struggle work day and night for certain to uphold certain values certain principles and when when it came to to my call I felt that I was being cowardly not to not to respond to them so you don't hold it against your mother-in-law sometimes that she what should he as you say forced your husband to join politics you had to enter politics perhaps against your initial instincts because there was this image of Indira Gandhi or the duty that you saw towards mrs. Gandhi that she saw politics almost as a duty and therefore virtually pushed her family members into politics I don't think she pushed any member of her family to join politics but I think she brought up her son's in a manner in which they they appreciated they understood the kind of work the kind of in a way sacrifice she had done to uphold certain values because I think she herself did not want to be in politics perhaps if something that way if you know she didn't want to be in Bali who is not terribly keen to be in politics but she won she was in politics she was the ultimate power politician so it seemed almost to the outside world that she was made for politics that Indira Gandhi was made for politics you're telling me today that you believe Indira Gandhi's instincts were not to join politics that's my belief I made the wrong there is some evidence to that that she had in the mid-60s even planned to go and live in England for a while well as I said that is my belief I think left to herself she would have to him so she also saw a sense of duty to javelin arrow in a sense or I will always say to her country to the people of the country you think that was something a sense of duty without doubt whatsoever the reason I'm asking you this is the one criticism that has always been made against Indira Gandhi it's made against you it's been made against the Gandhi families promoting dynasty that it is almost as if you're saying that it wasn't as if the family members were forced into politics but somehow they've all been in politics now for four generations we are sitting in a house built by moti Lal Nehru Jawara Nehru Indira Rajiv Sanjay now Rahul so it's five generations yes well I still understand I mean people do look at it that way but I would say of just like in a family of doctors in a family of professor in a family of business people one or the other within the family will choose the same path as the father right you don't think that's dynasty politics no I will say this I would say there is a difference because in politics you are elected and you are defeated democratically there is also that that difference there is but but you don't you believe that mrs. Gandhi because her father Zavala Niro was the ultimate Democrat and mrs. Gandhi's somewhere was the one who pushed the idea of the family before you no I don't believe so it was always country first absolutely country the people the country is that what also eventually led you to take that big decision in 90s yes because you know by that time I was there was nothing else in my mind but to uphold my mother-in-law's ideas well it is not my mother-in-law's by those to Congress when I asked you mother-in-laws values ideals what according to you are the central ideas or values that Indira Gandhi represented according to you secularism and secularism in the sort of classical way you believe not as its described today as Minority appeasement because there's also little loss absolutely not it was to treat all religions equal absolute and every citizen all india right because what are the same and you believe that regardless of their background of their religion and she practiced her life like that because yes you date sort of in the library with the tribals of these Hindi with a you know celebrating Eid and celebrating Hindu festivals now many have criticized that over the saying that you know that this has led to appeasement you believe there was a genuine sense of treating everyone equally completely absolutely the reason I also ask you that is because with mrs. Gandhi secularism has been questioned whether mrs. Gandhi was genuinely committed later on to secularism or what they call vote bank politics was mrs. Gandhi playing vote bank politics I would not like to discuss politics we have the casting mrs. Gandhi mrs. Gandhi's person mrs. Gandhi's black mark man was the emergency and till today people in a sense look at mrs. Gandhi from two images one is the 1971 war as her biggest moment and her darkest moment as the emergency of 1975 what do you believe how do you believe she would see the emergency today would she see it as something she deeply regretted as the daughter of javelin M I cannot say exactly how would how she would say the emergency today but I can say that if she had not felt extremely uncomfortable with it at some stage she would that she would not have called for elections device that's true in 77 she did take that big decision to to revoke the emergency and hold an election that she lost but did she ever personally in conversation with you today I there are I remember instances where Raji she was a pilot he used to fly to various parts of the country on a number of occasions he would make up with people or a passenger or a friend who would say look here you know I've heard this is happening in whichever place and he would tell his mother and I could see that she would would take it and she would listen to it and she would think about it but she never opened he ever told you Sonia III will write it in my own book that's what I'm only are you gonna yeah because you should you should nobody knows in either if and when if and when I thought it seemed odd when more than if well let's see let me come to the question about you know when Indira wanted Rajiv D to be her political heir after Sanjay Gandhi's death you were publicly said that you were against it you're saying it even today yes and was completely completely against it it said famously in the book you fought like a tigress yes husband yes really did that change your equation with your mother-in-law those love no because again she was a very intelligent woman don't forget she allowed the two of us to work it out amongst ourselves she never said anything to me was that a lot of privacy that she gave you as a as a as a as a couple here yes we had I mean your public life you know the daughter-in-law and the son of a prime minister it's not an easy space to be in because your public and your private life often get completely blurred did she allow you to keep you I think it was it was a bit spoilt in those days there was less focused on ask the family you didn't have 24 by 7 tell you how especially difference within nobody was ptrd our life so we had we had yes quite a lot of space to ourselves your mother-in-law won't ask you every evening where are you going out never never never never osteo who are your friends were coming over never never if we had friends we would you know she would know them they were introduced some of them she knew from long before they would come for me in the house you know at her table so you know there are those mom who say the Congress party today needs a leader like Indira Gandhi to take on someone like Narendra Modi the reason they say is mr. Narendra Modi is the stuff sleep prime minister much like Indira and the Congress doesn't have that kind of tough competitive leader to take I I don't agree with that I don't agree with that don't forget after when mrs. Gandhi entered politics she became president of the party or later family she was ridiculed she was made fun of she was insulted there was nothing that she did that was right she was called goon ddrum from from within her own party I would say perhaps even more than outside right you and you believe that she was able to overcome that she was able to overcome that she did overcome that I'm just wondering whether that's something you learned from mrs. Gandhi because there was there is this fighting spirit that we've seen in Sonia Gandhi from time to time is that something you learned from your from your mother-in-law because you were attacked viciously attacked yeah today Rahul is also at absolutely does the family take innocence confidence from from what Indira Gandhi was or do you believe the world has changed you need to be more competitive now then even in the 1960s and 70s when the Congress was the dominant party you didn't have a leader like mr. Modi to take on them that mrs. Gandhi and you know every sort of the here I politics or in history has its own problem its own leaders or its own opposition no I think I think the Congress party is taking on the present dispensation but did you take inspiration from mrs. Gandhi from from what she went maybe maybe subconsciously I did I can't say that I you know that I first studied her what she didn't know I never did subconsciously I guess one imbibes like in any other family as I said you know I don't know and you think your children also because now today when you say that they can take on yeah you think they have this but it you have to do it's called it's not true that Rahul and Priyanka have had more sheltered lives unlike you know the load and all not at all not at all so they can take on the likes of absolutely absolutely so much more is expected of us because we have a certain surname because we belong to a certain family and we we sort of gather some sort of inner strength to to make it possible for us to face such things so you don't sort of you know I know this is a political question but you don't sort of see the Congress as a party which in mrs. Gandhi's time was the dominant party of the country now you have to come up from a from 44 seats you don't think that it's all I think I think that it is absolutely possible not only it is possible but we will come up from 44 feet we would have seats needed to have strength to strength in fire you will come back to power you believe absolutely in politics you win you lose you come up in power you go down it's part of life in every sphere of life the reason I'm do you get troubled when people ask you when when political observers people write a BJP leader says Narendra Modi is a is like Indira Gandhi he is the you know that power politician does that trouble you it doesn't trouble me because I don't believe in it at all I have my own very clear view there is no comparison there is no comparison absolutely not absolutely not as a power politician absolutely not let me ask you a question that many also ask Priyanka Gandhi your daughter is supposed to resemble Indira Gandhi who in the Mara Gandhi family today is more like your mother-in-law who's been the most in all the years that you every m3 of one of us has been influenced by mrs. Gandhi my mother-in-law and in their case by their grandmother in different ways right I've been influenced in my own way in a particular way Priyanka in another way Rahul in another way so it's not about there is no model kind of thing you know that oh yes I am or she is or he is we are all we all have been influenced in differently because my trick question then would be or what people would ask is that will Rahul be the person who will take forward this legacy well that that is that you have to not process too you want to aside that to decide or to reply you know you know because you've been you know mrs. Gandhi man had a one of us big strength was her durability she started in the early people forget in the late 50s under mr. Nehru 66 becomes Prime Minister 84 18 years you've been also communist president for almost that long and people ask will mrs. Gandhi give way to the new order will raffle take over is are you ready to retire you think about these things no politics no policies Gandhi only today fair enough mrs. Gandhi only today I take your point ma'am since we are talking about mrs. Gandhi you saw her the first time you said in London in happy circumstances you saw her the last time in not so happy circumstance 31st October 1984 she literally died in your arms in such a general your recollections yes that was a terrible day it was I was in my room and which was right next to hers she was preparing to go for an interview and I heard I heard from noises Diwali had just been and sometimes you know Diwali sort of carries on a few days later and I heard these noises and I I sort of I thought maybe they are Diwali attackers but there's something something was different and I sent one lady work for me out to see what what is it she came back howling crying and of course I knew that something because we were expecting it my mother-in-law knew she had spoken to us about it she had given instructions he had spoken to Rahul in particular and I ran out and I saw her and she body riddled with bullets and we took her to the hospital this was again terrible sometimes because there was no ambulance nothing for she was placed in the Ambassador in back seat and I was sitting with her in my arms and there was a lot of traffic anyway slowly we reached the hospital and that did it take you a long time to come to terms with what had happened to your mother-in-law yes it was a terrible loss for me it was a terrible blow of course for for Raj he did for Rahul and Priyanka for all of us how do you assess ma'am her contribution to the country as you said she you believe above all else was committed to the idea of India and country above all else if today as we sit here in Swaraj Bhavan you were to assess mrs. Gandhi's greatest contribution to this country's great there is no produced an exhibition in her name which is like all of us I would put it I would put it in these words a greatest contribution is her loyalty and devotion to the people of India would because from that flow you know every age everything else so what was this prod yeah what was the special connect that she seemed to have she could you know Pranab Mukherjee the president he identified with them she there was something about her her deep compassion these people you know very few people talk about President Pranab Mukherjee told me something interesting he said that if you have a political meeting in lapland in in the Arctic Circle Indira Gandhi and the Pope will be the only two people to attract an audience even there so I don't know about that but she had some kind of connect with the average body definitely had she definitely had did she ever talk about it to you about the special relationship that she had with the people of this country what is it that drove her to work every day she she was a very she had in her deep compassion and empathy for the underdog for people who very need of help and support something that maybe is missing in today's politics very much so yes the reason the reason I ask you this is because she also was the FIR you know an Indian woman in 1966 to become the Prime Minister of the country America couldn't produce a president in 2016 who was a woman the fact that she was a woman that did that in any way you think did you see that side of her was she proud of her sort of almost feminine was she ever a feminist or was she as someone once put it the only man in her cabinet did she ever the fact that she was a woman Prime Minister with all the men around her at that time we were still a very male-dominated society did that affect mrs. Gandhi in any way influence our decisions make her tougher baby I don't think so I in fact she I think she did say somewhere I seek to remember that she never felt that she was a woman amongst all these colleagues of her she always felt equal equal to them you know I asked you about her darker moment which was the emergency but her possibly her greatest triumph or 71 and the war and the victory over Bangladesh did it change her in any way at that time you know do you remember that period and mrs. Gandhi in that period was she was she was she very different at home outside because it must have been a difficult noggin no she wasn't she wasn't different of course she felt strongly for the people of East Bengal because if you remember the world terrible atrocities committed on the people of East Bengal I remember as a young fella young for CSI was younger then we used to hear horrific stories and she she felt photos about genuinely paint about it she would take a lot of it she would say he suffered with those people she would take the troubles home she would when she came home she would she would of course she would come she would tell us about what you know was happening there the reason I'm asking is because after 71 she was made madruga in the eyes of people is that how she saw herself as mother no absolutely not how would she has seen her so lucky not she saw herself purely as a as someone who had this special relationship with the yinz yes absolutely absolutely which is why in conclusion as this exhibition now comes a traveling exhibition on a hundred but anniversary goes across the country a young generation has grown up which hasn't even seen mrs. Gandhi all born after 1984 what would you like to that young generation to see in mrs. Gandhi through this exhibition what is it that you to see well to see to try and understand and see a woman of who was completely and totally devoted to her people was willing to give up everything including her own life for the people of her country so it's the sense of sacrifice that she gave and do you think that came from her father and the fact that she herself had been through that freedom struggle that she had he she believed in this play grew up she grew up during that period in fact she herself was jailed for a few not for long but in fact she was during the freedom movement she herself had organized urban Arsena or young kids who useless or go around quietly pass on information to leaders or seniors because they were watched by the police and to distribute quietly leaflets against the British government so her sense of patriotism is what was it was very very strong in her it was I would say it was everything the reason I'm asking you this is because we are sitting here actually in the very space where she was born where in a sense the influence of moti Lal Jawaharlal you know is should be still felt in a way of them of course and all all the other stalwarts of the freedom movement because this was the centre where you know all of them used to meet and strategize so then she she knew them all she she met them all of course she was very young and then later on but she knew she was they were like a family they were like family for you have a favorite Indira Gandhi moment she had a very good sense of humor I'm told she could be shy had she had a very yes very - of cute sense of humor she was a wonderful letter writer she was a wonderful she'd write you a lot of rest yes not only to me but to her friends - relatives - colleague little notes that she would leave for you little notes that you'd leave for me for other members of the family yes yes and she I think another aspect of mrs. Gandhi that perhaps is not so well known is that she was interested in everything in everybody she had great interest in music classical music Indians in western heritage a normal classical original and one classical art folk art folk music environment of course you know flowers trees mountains she had this great interest I would say in everything and everybody as you look today to the camera sense of nostalgia when you think of us I can see your eyes sometimes well up when you think of your course we still miss her yes we do mrs. Gandhi you've taken the time off to speak to me I try to that was Sonia Gandhi here the historic Swaraj vivant speaking on Indira Gandhi in 2006 on the 60th anniversary of Indian independence when we did a poll we found that Indira Gandhi was still the most recognized face in the country and that was more than two decades after her death she now celebrates her 100th birth anniversary with a traveling exhibition we've got a peek into her lives through mrs. Gandhi you too could have a peek into the life and times of Indira Gandhi in that exhibition as it travels across India thanks for watching goodbye [Music] you

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Id: jH6QcrEw2LY

Length: 37min 24sec (2244 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 21 2016