Ex-CIA Officer Speaks Out: The Italian Job

how far you willing to go to clear your name oh I'll go as far as I mean I've gotten to this point are you willing to go to jail of course but the thing is anyone who joins me at this point is only gonna be complicit in this cover-up I mean that's the way to get rid of me right in 2003 most of the al-qaeda action was in Iraq or Afghanistan but surprisingly according to intelligence officials Italy and specifically Milan had become a hotbed of Islamic extremists in the late 90s Italy granted asylum to a significant number of immigrants fleeing persecution from their home countries among them were a small number of Islamic extremists who became known as the Milanese Network individuals suspected of financing international terrorism one of the most high-profile of these extremists was Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasser also known as Abu Omar an Egyptian who was tied to a Sunni Islamic group designated as a terrorist organization by Egypt the mosque behind me is where Abu Omar spent the majority of his time he was effectively the head Imam or religious scholar here and it was here just after 9/11 that he was giving fiery incendiary speeches that put him in the crosshairs of both the Italian and the American intelligence agencies On February 17 2003 Abu Omar disappeared off the street and more sobbing Omar is walking down this very street on his way to the mosque for noon prayers he's stopped by an Italian police officer who's also a CIA informant and during this time Abu Omar fails to notice that there's a white van parked directly behind him door to the van slides open two hands reach out grab him rip him into the vehicle door slams shut and he disappears adiga mente subito Fuki okay questa persona on IRA's compossible Ontario men Tamara status a quest rod hermanos potaro is a veteran terrorism prosecutor in Turin who spent years investigating and prosecuting Italian mafia figures and leftist terrorists before probing Abu Omar disappearance yo Pandey testimony k descri Cyril fat okay a bomb arias tato praise o ms o un fuel gonna Linda Jeannie dope Oh Pookie Missy Cindy return over solo Chia through extensive use of cell phone mapping and a hotel and credit card receipts Swift ro was able to determine that agents from the Central Intelligence Agency were responsible for the extraordinary rendition of Abu Omar inside the CIA this operation was known as the Italian jump what the CIA did was bold they snatched a guy off the streets of Italy in broad daylight but they were also sloppy and they left behind a trail of breadcrumbs with hard evidence of CIA involvement potaro did something completely unprecedented in the global war on terror he saw indictments and won convictions against 23 Americans it stands as the only successful prosecution against the CIA in connection with the agency's controversial rendition detention and interrogation program 22 former CIA operatives and one US Air Force colonel wolf are now convicted felons in Italy they are in no jeopardy as long as they are inside the United States but if they were to leave they are potentially at risk for being jailed and brought to Italy one of those Americans convicted is Sabrina de Souza a veteran CIA counterterrorism officer who is stationed in Milan what should we know about Sabrina de Souza's involvement in the rendition a so category soon importante lamented irresponsible tonneaus tante le e difficult rally bode go Sol tanto esta bien de Souza ot or need a defender si de Nancy a la corte italiana a shelter luminaire Latta tante la voz de Atacama Latino rope adorable celesta in fact de Souza is in Europe and she's not taking any steps to conceal her presence here de Souza a dual US Portuguese citizen who resigned from the CIA in 2010 has been stuck in the United States but earlier this year she decided to take a risk she traveled to Morocco and then made her way to Portugal despite the fact that there was a European arrest warrant issued for her D'Souza said she was falsely implicated in the Abu Omar trend issue she's accused high-level CIA officials of knowingly carrying out an illegal rendition on Italian soil and leaving her high and dry to take the fall taking on the CIA is a dangerous task and it's taken a heavy toll on de Souza isolated from family and friends unable to work living under the anvil of an arrest warrant she's now planning her next moves in an effort to clear her name she's in Portugal to meet with top European government officials and human rights attorneys who she hopes will pressure prosecutors into launching a new investigation into the Abu Omar rendition it's a risky strategy that could reignite a political firestorm between the u.s. Italy and their respective intelligence services I've been very vocal in the last few years about this entire rendition and the need for accountability and to clear my name the reason I decided finally to come to Portugal was because it was a goal of mine and I didn't see any reason why some of the CIA leadership who were responsible for my not being able to come to Portugal did not put that big-boy pants on assumed responsibility and resolved this issue once and for all none of the CIA officers who were convicted ever served a day in jail that's because Italy never sent the US extradition papers still de Souza claims that she's been living in a different kind of prison barred from travelling overseas and fearing she would never be able to see her family again emotionally for me this was almost like a roller coaster type thing in September of 2005 I got a call and 11 o'clock on a Saturday say my father was in the intensive care unit in India and I was ready to turn in my badge I called someone at the headquarters who was working inside and I said I'm going and I'm going through France and I left I got to India walking to the hospital as the priest and two others were coming to read the last write to my father and then I came back and I was like okay you know I know this is it and I really didn't care because my family was really important and then my father passed away then I got indicted in July of 2006 and again my mother was 80 and I thought there's no way so I said okay why don't you get my mother here for Christmas I mean this the least they could have done for me if they did even that much for me perhaps I wouldn't have I would be here today trying to fight this when did you join the CIA on the 90s and and then I was assigned to Italy was my first tour and why what compelled you to join the agency actually it was just a very almost lame crease and I needed a job actually the end of the day um I was married to an agency office at the time and I just thought what he was doing you know sounded interesting I didn't tell me everything he was doing but um I just thought that whole area was kind of of interest to me who was either Homer I think he popped on the radar not so much for what he had done in the past because you know in the past year then to Albania Germany left from Egypt and left under cloud and from all these different places but that was not taken into consideration because he was granted political asylum there was no pending arrest warrant for him anywhere not needed not in Albania know he had a checkered past but nothing that resulted in an arrest warrant it was all supposition you know suspected of maybe he did this but there was nothing stuck to him obviously if there was something concrete which is why he got political asylum he came to the attention because of his rhetoric at the mosque you know fiery speeches and from telephone taps I guess with the Italian police the digos who had him under physical and technical surveillance he would talk about different things but again I like to emphasize that he would talk about it but it didn't concern the Italians enough they didn't feel they had enough evidence based on what was going on there always physical surveillance to issue an arrest warrant for him you see to the point that according to Bruno Magali the chief of canotary Ferdie goes according to his testimony in court they dropped surveillance of Abu Omar in January of 2003 to concentrate on other people other suspects of interest more of interest that he was how does he go from this this figure that you're monitoring to someone who's a candidate for rendition well the figure that the CIA was monitoring him buta the Italians were monitoring him so for the CIA again Abu Omar was not like the only candidate the chief of counterterrorism in Rome again this whole rendition was run out of Rome the chief of counterterrorism in Rome in 2001 had come up with a list of 10 names so despite all of that the agency Greenlight's the rendition of our world yes sir right so there's a specific agency team that does the actual snatch they come in from outside and then as the internal country team you assist them in doing that yeah not many from the internal country team were I mean do I know what love wasn't like everybody from the embassy or the or the base of course it was not there was no one at the base as such to do that it was the team that would come in but again this is there's also got to remember that the team was under the impression that the Italians were on board with this and that's a little bit significant because when a team is under the impression and they're told that the Italians have your back now why would you go around the country engaged in the highest level of tradecraft you see all these the team got convicted on what sloppy tradecraft that was the narrative that been all over the place sloppy tradecraft the CI and all the rest of it why would you do that because if you do that then the host country who's supposed to have your back is gonna run go like what are these guys doing I'll be out of the loop on something you know what I mean they were told that they were told you you know the hosts good huh Italians have your back so so you thought you're operating with the consent of the Italian government the Italian intelligence services well the team did you claim that you were not a significant part of this rendition absolutely not I wasn't even part of the rendition at all I was not there I was skiing that'd be because it was white peak and because I wasn't in charge of her or any of that I went off to to the ski vacation so absolutely and that's what I've settled all along Bo and all these years I've said one thing the charges against me are groundless I want to be able to live freely again and this thing has gone on way too long and what was your role well my rule was earlier on so I was the translator between the Italians and the team most of my career was spent in the counterterrorism center until you're operating undercover State Department what's called declared to them they knew who I was the Italian prosecutor claims that you were the mastermind I know but what's the evidence bears the evidence that's the thing where is the evidence in my attorney proved in court it's not possible for me to have been the mastermind of this whole thing lediko so tanto que no solo en sequester Obama my uncle si si tipo di Otto on ku4 toh di una Otto vector ax y response a piane sole tanto key material meant a say will for toe monka kia participate hola prepper a co only Guapo but that's not it for de souza who maintains her innocence one of her unlikely allies is otto Gomez a member of European Parliament who has been a vocal critic of how the war on terror has been conducted I've worked a lot in the committee that we have set up in the European Parliament to investigate the complicity of Europeans in the extraordinary rendition program and how did you first become aware of Sabrina de Sousa and what she's trying to do some lawyers here in Portugal also go through the documents and and they confirmed that that possession that Nets had been wrongly convicted in Italy because of course there was a political interest in in convicting a number of people and so anyone would do so I thought it was important to to help her and I agreed I arranged with a lawyer that I would go to Morocco where she was and would travel with her to Portugal and would try to help her from here indeed clear her name I I thought that it this is also a way to help bring light into this all or endless affair of the torture program where not just the u.s. administration has tremendous responsibilities but where European governments also have tremendous responsibilities because they were accomplices and and that's exactly where we have not been able to really get a proper follow-up in the u.s. the sentiment is you know this program many of these activities including the Abu Omar rendition happened a decade ago and they want to turn the page they want to sort of close the door on this chapter is there a sense that the sentiment is different in Europe much depends on the victims themselves and you have Sabrina or was also a victim fighting for to clear up her name you have the victims of torture also fighting for reparation and we need to support them we will support ins if the victims prefer a closure there will be closure if they decide to speak up and fight and demand reparation there plenty of avenues you know there are victims of the Second World War the Holocaust who are still going after those responsible Naza criminals of all sorts since 2005 D'Souza has been battling the Bush and Obama administrations she's taking her complaints to members of Congress and has written letters to secretaries of State Colin Powell and Hillary Clinton you have tried multiple channels to get your name cleared from this incident right oh absolutely I had gone through every single option internally in the CIA starting with the Ombudsman who was told to back off the grievance office the EEO even office that were probably not even relevant to anything I was just trying to find something and the interesting thing about Washington is how a cover-up takes effect she knows like a cancer it starts off in the CIA and then they involve the Department of Defense so then it's spread to justice it spread here there and then all the way up to Congress the u.s. starts off with one thing alone we don't acknowledge renditions well now that you feel like you've exhausted all your official u.s. option is what do you do next well there are options in Europe quite a few of them but for now I'm looking at one option so in the 20th of July the European Center for Constitutional and human rights filed a complaint to the German federal prosecutor either German federal question so this complaint was about the Senate torture report as well as the rendition program and why the German prosecutor well Gobbo Omar was rendered from Milan taken to Aviano and then flown to Ramstein Air Base in Germany from there he was sent to Cairo Egypt where he alleges torture so because of Ramstein there's a direct link with Germany and therefore I think the German federal prosecutor is in the best position to conduct an investigation of this the prosecutor has universal jurisdiction but again because of this directly the idea here is if you can get the German prosecutor to bring a new investigation and the German prosecutors relevant because the plane landed in German right then you hope that that will reveal new details that will clear your name absolutely in addition to violating Italy sovereignty the CIA's rendition of Abu Omar had the consequence of completely derail Italy's ongoing investigation into the cleric and other alleged terrorists was Abu Omar a terrorist was he supporting terrorist operations here as part of the melanie's network a quando a boom are a few repeat o la procure animal on o la policía de milano esteban in de gand o subi lui esteban o in de gand o su di Lucca meter Arista SUV compy she say UN Fauci estado repeat o lo Braemore estado no e FM arrest a t a bar esta to multi ultra complex AB Amara Corot are todo Guto a sequester on fattiest a token Donato come apartamento no see you soon enter Arista my fat okay for some terrorists a non-jew stiphu confesses tato sequest righto in italia Kuroda Malaysia were you surprised to learn that the Americans had conducted a rendition on Italian soil obviamente conozco benissimo to Rossetti honest attorney 10 Cedella war on terror que comprende le rendition ma non solo laranesha posso son tanto de la cosa say Kongo sistema de der et Delhi democracy a poacher n tally yo Phnom Penh so kasya immiscible own our area request OT po s empress Ament a illegal a UN readö non SI comma extraordinary rendition machina au sequester le persone conquest Oh tipo de Sione no see combate fat Oh Turismo Madeira to recede ah no I terrorist II Rajani / proselytism Oh Trevor our role our LT terrorist II on a Gomez echoes these same sentiments I will not give up efforts together with others to expose and bring to justice those who are responsible for the surrenders program that has so dramatically damaged our credibility in terms of human rights in the rule of law and democracy and which has actually enabled the terrorists with a narrative to recruit more terrorists isn't there an understanding or a tacit nod nod wink wink that if you rendition a guy like Abu Omar to Egypt he's gonna be tortured absolutely um I'd know but tacit because Egypt is on the State Department's list of countries that is known to torture oh dude I see the result can be Benaiah Thomas all retarded hello how'd you get there we were sent an IRA nurse Telugu the buyer who have him accountable to us Allah be a caller so Colin Powell who was the Secretary of State had to prove this and ditz did so knowing full well that Egypt is on in his State Department's list of countries at tortures well so doesn't that in itself make the rendition illegal um not in the u.s. is torture by proxy illegal in under US law and that's the reason why this the CIA established sending those who are captured off to other countries because then they can go like well we asked for reasonable guarantees and that's about it which obviously doesn't happen do you think this case has damaged relationship air relations between the US and Italy well they on the surface they say absolutely not but I can tell you right now CT cooperation absolutely absolutely counterterrorism work yes we reached out to the CIA to ask them about de Souza's case and the allegation she leveled against the agency but the CIA declined to comment we also sought comment from the House and Senate intelligence committees who de Souza's said she met with staffers told us the committee's did indeed meet with the CIA to discuss de Souza's case but they could not reveal details about those talks because they're classified and who ultimately signs off on a rendition like this Condoleezza Rice and Bush George dumb people at a time is an again but the Abu Omar is guilty or not is a separate matter my issue but this whole thing is you didn't have to take him to Egypt to be tortured this time now ten years later it is really important that this entire story be told because this case is emblematic of a broader larger political and policy issues D'Souza claims that she discovered explosive details about the planning and execution of Abu Omar renditions when she reviewed internal CIA documents while still at the agency but she was reluctant to disclose to us what she learned Serina I don't understand if if you are willing to tell the story of what's happening and you're here talking why not just tell the full story right now you keep asking me the same thing and I'm trying to tell you that this information really belongs in front of a prosecutor sit again telling you the story will may get me three minutes of fame it's out there but it will not result in accountability I think a skeptic would say like Oh Sabrina was on a ski trip yeah when this was happening like that sounds that sounds like a cover story opposite letter case officer would absolutely yep case officer absolutely and there have been skeptical who said exact exactly that but you know I'm not gonna go bother with the skeptics on this again they can say whatever they want I already feel quite vindicated overcome you with what I've done over the last few years and step things on will change my life in any way because they're not the German federal prosecutor or any other prosecutor for that matter so I can't please everybody a spokesperson for the German prosecutor did not respond to our request about whether his office has launched an investigation are you here in order to get the agency back it you could your motives could be interpreted as vindictive well if I just popped up out of the blue then people could say it's been dictum but I have a history I've gone through calls I've gone through Congress I've done what is supposed to be a proper channel except that I found this proper channel is aimed at making sure that abusers remain abusers and never see the light of day it's rare for CIA officers to speak critically and publicly about the agency's secret operations but the fallout from the Abu Omar rendition is unprecedented the prosecutor the politician DeSousa herself share a common threat they want answers and demand accountability yet each of them pursuing their own agendas threatens to reopen a Pandora's box that both the Italian and American governments want closed in this case D'Souza all alone desperate to clear her name threatening to reveal sensitive information is playing an international chess game whose outcome is unknown what she does next could prove to be disastrous for the CIA and for her as well how far are you willing to go to clear your name well go as far as I mean I've gotten to this point are you willing to go to jail of course but the thing is why would I go to jail I believe that the public at this point looking for accountability they are looking for countability and anyone who jails me at this point is only going to be complicit in this cover-up I mean that's the way to get rid of me right I mean disappear tomorrow you know who knows

Channel: VICE News

Views: 1,069,715

Rating: 4.6336355 out of 5

Keywords: CIA, Sabrina De Sousa, Armando Spataro, Ana Gomes Rendition, Torture, Abu Omar, Italy, Milan, Portugal, Lisbon, Egypt, Terrorism, Detention, Black Site, Absentia, European Parliament, Prosecutor, State Department, Aviano, Ramstein, Kaj Larsen, Jason Leopold, VICE News, VICE, news, interview, interviews, journalism, world news, culture, wild, lifestyle, world, exclusive, independent, italian job, Ex-CIA Officer Speaks Out, sabrina de sousa vice, the italian job, the italian job vice

Id: Wwgx0DwhPiY

Length: 28min 0sec (1680 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 03 2015

Reddit Comments

[u/dareeza]

Rendition is a vey nice way of saying kidnap

[u/TJ_hooper]

IIRC aren't most the people who were "convicted" fake? As in they were made up identities for the CIA officers.

[u/YOUREABOT]

Portugal a country never in the news must be a good place 2 live.

[u/[deleted]]

[removed]

[u/HappyHighwayman]

In their defense Italian courts are kangaroo. They found scientists guilt of not predicting earthquakes.

[u/duffmanhb]

Man, remember when Vice used to be good?

[u/YourShadowScholar]

"Rendition" doesn't make sense as a word here...