EWTN Live - Protestant Theology - Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J. with David Anders - 06-23-2010

what would John Calvin and Martin Luther think of today's versions of evangelical Protestantism we'll talk with a student of Calvinism tonight and find out where modern-day Protestantism led him so please stay with us you thank you thank you and welcome I'm father Mitch Pacwa and welcome to EWTN live our chance to bring you guests from all over the world now didn't go too far to tonight that's for sure right from here in Birmingham but our guest has an interesting journey he began studying John Calvin and Protestant church history while he was in college but soon found out that what passes for modern day Protestant evangelicalism was not the faith of the early reformers his time at Wheaton College and Trinity Evangelical Seminary in Illinois and later his doctoral studies in Reformation history and historical theology led him to eventually question his own evangelical identity so please welcome dr. David Anders our Sanders so you were studying up in Wheaton College and Trinity up in Deerfield that's right right into both places the number of times for talks and session and know that neither one was a place that would have had a faculty of Catholicism that would not be one of the things that they thought they were both both very solidly evangelical schools and in some ways among the leaders of angelical Protestant schools so you were at some of the best of the programs in Evin jokl historical tea and theological studies that's exactly right and that's why I elected to go there I really wanted to study with the best of angelical scholars I didn't find him and learn my faith and and I was there with Baptists and Presbyterians and Episcopalians and charismatic sand all kinds of different Protestants went there and we were all United not in our different denominations but in our commitment to Christ our devotion to scripture to certain evangelical distinctives and in our belief that the Roman Catholic Church was was not that not a tree Church it and if you were Catholic that was a deal-breaker you were outside the true faith in fact one of the conference's I attended there was a large group of us Catholics up at trendy and that was something of a scandal but they wanted us in the sense that there was a risk that they took was there to discuss pro-life issues we shared in common sure but it was something of a scandal for them especially when we celebrated Mass up there near among ourselves the document that came out several years ago called Evan Jellico's and Catholics together yes and some have Angelica 'ls who were softening a bit in their opposition to the Catholic Church well I was in seminary when that when that document came out and the faculty was horrified they were uniformly hostile and so this is compromised with really with the enemy right exact einde of anxiety it's a there's a certain tension there and you know it's one that um you know I don't know how strong it is right now but it was certainly was back when I was there in the 80s oh sure now you then went on after studying at this that both at Trinity and Wheaton you went on to get a PhD where'd you go for that the University of Iowa in Iowa City Iowa which is not a Protestant evangelical no it's a secular institution Brian you know we had faculty that were Protestants Catholics Jews and you know various other things it was a pretty open-minded environment and a particular confessional orientation your focus on new studies was what the theology of John Calvin you know growing up when you grew up a Protestant an Aboriginal Protestant in particular you learn this very powerful identification with the 16th century with the Reformers and this idea that the Catholic Church was somehow corrupt and had abandoned the true faith and Martin Luther and John Calvin were the fellows who allegedly recovered the the true faith and rescued it from the darkness of Catholicism and we really saw ourselves as you know they're their children we identified with them so when it came time to move on in my historical studies I wanted to be a church history professor it really was very clear to me that I needed to go and study the Reformation because that was the roots of my faith I understood it and in fact that's notes at some questions on my radio show this afternoon about this sometimes Protestants so focus on the Old Testament perplexes Catholics but part of is because they have to eliminate a big part of the style I compare church history to broccoli and they cut off the big long stem and they want the flower and the roots right but that but they're between 300 and 1500 it's it's just darkness you're absolutely right you're absolutely right and which is the the Catholic period right precisely and it's it's a problem in there they've come up with various ways of trying to explain away that right up here to but it's a problem that's why you would go to Kelvin in the 16th century for roots oh sure yeah definitely because the you know there's the scriptures and then this nebulous period of time called the early church which is poorly defined in Protestant circles what exactly is the early church and when does it end does n what significance does what significance does it have but clearly the Middle Ages are bad that's the perception so so I go to study Kelvin and to make a long story short first of all yeah did you like reading count like that the one of the main books of Calvin are his Institute's you know I went into Calvin expecting to like him because I had been told he was you know the founder of our church and this great thinker and so forth the farther I went into Calvin truthfully the less I liked him personally and the more I learned of his own personal story in the way he conducted himself with his contemporaries I found I liked him less and less than it contrasted rather sharply with what I eventually learned about the great Catholic theologians many of whom are Saints you know meaning they had heroic charity and humility and so forth and I didn't see those characteristics exhibited in his life like for instance what would it be that you know made you become to dislike I mean you're attracted to his theology and as a source was attracted to the idea of his theology initially you know because he was a you know a leading figure more of a symbol of myth of our own Protestant identity you know more than the actual ideas the more I learned about the ideas the farther I went into them I think the less I identified with them would be some of the ideas that you had the most problems with well let me redirect if I go okay go ahead sure and and just say to put it on the record eventually entered the Catholic Church not so much because what I found wrong with Protestantism but because of what I found right with Catholicism and ultimately the Protestants pointed me to the Bible because they always claimed that was the rule of faith there their origin of their document that you would go to I studied the scriptures I studied Greek I studied New Testament scholarship I studied the Church Fathers and I only came to the conviction that the Catholic Church was the church that had preserved the the faith once for all delivered to the Saints and and that the Protestant which is the line from Scripture the claim that the Protestants had recovered the gospel was just fallacious okay so that ultimately led me to the Catholic faith but along the way I also began to get interested in differences that I saw between the the religion of the Reformers and Protestantism as it was practiced in my own church and in 20th century America and let me give you a couple of illustrations alright when you grow up Evan Jellicle Protestant today the one doctrine that is the core the heart of the whole business is this idea that you have to be born again through personal conversion you have to pray to invite Jesus into your heart right I mean this is a strong theme say in Billy Graham of course ah you know make a decision for Christ and he was powerfully influential through making that appeal absolutely and and we even even in churches that practice infant baptism a child might be baptized as an infant but but in the church we would speak of that person actually becoming a Christian you know Christian initiation beginning not in baptism but when they made a decision for Christ at the age of six or seven or eight or nine or whenever that was really the beginning of the Christian life in this this is an idea that's so rampant so widespread that it's totally taken for granted and you'll pick up tracks on how to become a Christian how to know you're saved and it all hinges on this personal decision for Christ personal conversion so when I went to Calvin and Luther and began to study the Reformers it took me a while to realize I didn't find any exhortations in their writings for their parishioners to be born again I didn't see in Calvin sermons or his letters or any of his personal interactions with other Christians exhorting them to have a conversion experience neither in Luth nor and Luther and in it it struck me as very odd because this is such an important part of my evangelical identity and it was completely missing in the thought of the Reformers and when I began to ask myself well when when do they think Christian life begins and lo and behold they maintained the traditional Catholic and Christian doctrine that Christian dicier ssin is in Baptism that a person is brought into the church regenerated by the spirit brought into all the aspects of the Christian life through baptism the Calvin actually uses that language Luther and Calvin would see baptism as the beginning of Christian life absolutely that's that's not commonly held in the free church traditions here press on this country like boyfriend's is Baptist on a number of other groups they wouldn't they would you know what's interesting is that even in Presbyterian churches today churches that theoretically trace themselves to Calvin into his tradition while their documents on paper will hold to a Calvin's action of baptism in reality they've adopted this whole Free Church model that it's conversion as men effect if I may quote from Calvin on baptism where you Calvin wrote and I quote from him in Baptism God regenerating us in Graf's us into the Society of his church and makes us his own by adoption that's from the Institute's of Christian religion of part 4 yeah before for us 17.1 right so that this is a you know Calvin's direct but that would not be taught in many churches day-o there there's a if you if you suggest in most evangelical churches that regeneration can happen in baptism you that's a Catholic doctrine and they you know they see that almost as heretical well as met I went to a debate once and the men I was debate debating was introduced as having defeated the Presbyterian pastor of that church in a debate about infant baptism you know because he was more Baptist than the minister right so I you know I find this dichotomy between modern evangelicalism and 16th century Protestantism in it's bizarre and it kind of became a passion for me to find out well where does this idea of being born again come from and so I go into a deep historical study just on my own time to try to figure this thing out and I find the first hints of it really don't show up until 17th century Puritanism right and but the the full-blown version you don't really find until the 18th century and the revivalist tradition of Whitfield and Wesley and Jonathan Edwards and these characters in the 18th century so that would be during the time of the first created wigglers Great Awakening exactly and that was kind of a watershed for me when I realized that this faith that I had always thought this is missus scripture this is the early church this is what the Reformers recovered lo and behold I come to find out this core doctrine of my evangelical identity is missing from church history until the 18th century so it's a fool you know two hundred years after the Reformation began that's right before the talk of being born again and making a decision for Christ comes into play and mostly in this country that's right that's right you see hints of it in English Puritan ISM and it was interesting you know in Calvin when Calvin wanted to answer the question how do you know if a person is a Christian he looked at what were they baptized are they in communion with the church are they receiving the sacraments and did they have a true faith okay but but the ecclesiastical component was very important for him being in communion with the church being in submission to the Church's authority all these kinds of issues and if you had that you were pretty sure that you were part of the true body of Christ as he understood it when you move into England the Puritans didn't acknowledge the state church and they weren't able to as Anglican Anglican and they were not able to set up an institution they could govern the way Calvin would have wanted his church to be governed so they had to start looking for other evidences of true faith communion with the church wasn't good enough because they didn't have the constitution of the church like they wanted it so they started looking for internal evidence and eventually this introspection develops into this doctrine of conversion ISM that we see today so it's this long process but it's totally removed from the thought of Calvin there's there's something that I've often wondered it you might be able to comment on this one part of the doctrine of Luther and Calvin that is very striking to a Catholic who reads them is the denial of any goodness in human will and that the human will is totally Despres total depravity is especially Calvinist absolutely Luther is would have the idea but not develop it like Calvin did and if that's the case then justification by faith alone by grace alone means you can't even say yes to God's grace God makes you say yes or not it's all grace your will can't even accept the grace of God there is a great book that has not yet been written but needs to be that traces out the this dichotomy between between grace and total depravity in Protestant history because there's so many fascinating aspects in my own life I was taught your totally depraved and you can do absolutely nothing good and only grace saves you okay but how do you know you have true faith that was my flesh saved by faith alone having true faith as opposed to a false faith becomes very important well how do you know you have true faith well the way you know you have true faith is your life is supposed to bear evidence of this they're supposed to be morally good actions that flow from your true faith but then again you can't do morally good actions even after regeneration even after being born again you're told all of your quote/unquote morally good actions are actually hateful to God so you're left vacillating between presumption and despair presumption and despair by presumption presumption meaning uh well I don't have to worry about any works I don't have to worry about the quality of my moral life at all because I'm saved by grace but then how do I know I have a true faith oh well my life must bear evidence that I have a true faith so now I'm worried about my works again and it's this almost kind of a neurotic bipolar back and forth back and forth Luther had this a lot himself personally he would go from these highs to lows and highs to lows and you also see it born out actually in history in conflicts between competing factions over this issue if you've studied a New England history you know the early colonies were split right down the middle and the whole colonial experiment was almost destroyed precisely over this question the antinomian controversy with Anne Hutchinson and what is antinomian mean the antinomian point of view is you don't have to do anything whatsoever at all to have a true faith or to go to heaven because it means it's an T law anti law exactly and all of the Protestants agreed with justification by faith alone where they differed was whether or not works have any evidentiary value if they show the truth of your faith and there was one camp that said you have to have these to show evidence of your faith another camp that said no no that's Catholicism that's works righteousness and and they literally had a system right right now in the middle of the Puritan community and and it's been going on really for for 500 years but so you point you make a good point and it seems that you know the first time I lived in a very Protestant environment was when I did my doctoral work at Vanderbilt in Nashville Tennessee Nashville is a very very Protestant culture and you know I came from a very Catholic culture I mean in Chicago even the Jews will tell you what parish they're from because it's the biggest building in the neighborhood and so you know this is something that was part of the way we thought but in Nashville I noticed also that a quest for the verse by which I know I'm saved among competing groups there were a lot of groups competing if you just believe this for then that's how you know you saved that was that there was another pattern that I observed and I was was interested in fascinated to see cuz we Catholics just don't think in that line that's right you have to say alright let me point out another another doctrine we on the conversion and justification issue that this a difference between today and the Reformation another one is with a lot of today's Protestants and their information another one has to do with the way Protestants relate to the Bible and you know back in fifteen eighteen and nineteen Luther it gets into debate with Cardinal caccia tan and then with johannes von Eck about the significance of Scripture versus pope or council and he articulates his doctrine that well you have to go with the bible over the pope of the council's and by the 1520's the idea that the scripture is the final authority for Christian faith is well accepted in Protestant circles but in the Reformation era that doctrine was never understood to mean that the authority of pastors that an interpretive authority and even to some extent the authority of tradition should be completely rejected in fact if you look at Luther's debate with the zoo England's over the nation of the Lord's England's with the Swiss ruthless reformer led by who'll did I swing Zwingli who rejected the idea of Christ's presence in the Eucharist Luther in that context actually says it is a very dangerous thing to reject a doctrine that's been held by the consensus of fifteen hundred years of Christian history that you should never go against the consensus of the church I mean in that context course in other context he's perfectly willing to do so and then when you move over into the Calvinist Reformation I was struck when I found out how strong adoption of Church Authority Calvin had and he actually claims for himself the right to interpret Scripture and denies that right to the lady but my read a quote she regarded that there's a quote from Calvin on the how to interpret scripture that says and here's what the quote begins pastors and teachers are in charge of scriptural interpretation to keep whole and pure among believers and again that's from the Institute's of the Christian religion book for chapter three of paragraph four right now let me give you an illustration of how this actually worked out in in practical terms in Geneva when Calvin was passed her head pastor in Geneva on one occasion there was a gentleman that came into the city he was not from Geneva his name was Jerome Bullock he was a convert from Catholicism I guess everybody was a convert Catholicism it was probably at that time but he had been a Carmelite monk he was a physician and he sort of saw himself as a lay theologian he came in to Geneva he heard a lecture given on Calvin's theology happened to the doctrine of predestination that was being discussed and he took issue with some of the points in the lecture that he heard and he stood up and challenged them and he challenged the speaker to please prove these doctrines from Scripture now the response was that they clapped him in irons and threw him in jail and Calvin went on to really remember that verse Calvin went on to ridicule this fellow and and and considered him the worst of heretics but the thing that Calvin objected to so strongly wasn't so much his objection to the doctrine of predestination it was both exclaim to be able to interpret Scripture for himself and Calvin when you read the the epistolary evidence the letters back and forth Calvin insists that the interpretation of Scripture and on these abstruse and difficult doctrines belongs to the church in the pastors and it's the obligation of the laypeople to submit and obey again if I can give another quote from Calvin interpreting scripture he says we admit therefore that ecclesiastical pastors are to be heard just like Christ himself that's what he says and that's an ax letter that Calvin wrote to saw diletto in the calvini Oprah of book 5 that's your that's precisely correct and this this was really shocking to evangelical sensibilities because when you grew up as an evangelical you you imbibe this notion that you personal responsibility to really study the Bible to test everything that you hear this is why so many guys go to seminary I mean I was in seminary with with a bunch of people who were there basically to figure out what they believed and and you know they're learning Greek because they want to know what God has to say to them and they they don't trust anybody they don't trust their pastor they don't trust the Protestant traditions necessarily and so they're there to figure it out for themselves and this idea of there needs to be an interpretive Authority which Calvin clearly held just runs flat counter to the spirit of Angelica lism today and Martin Luther didn't read the countenance people disagreeing with him either he didn't like people disagreeing with him whether it was a Protestant or Catholic now the reason that Calvin is so insistent on there being interpretive Authority is there's a good reason for it and that is that he understood the biblical mandate that Christians seek unity in the faith I mean st. Paul says I want you to agree on everything now that is a dead letter in Evin Jellicle ISM today it is an absolute dead letter when I grew up and when I was in seminary and in college as I mentioned I was there with Baptists and Episcopalians and Presbyterians so we were not bothered by our differences our attitude was if we agree on the essentials namely you know being born again then we can disagree on everything else we can disagree on the nature of the sacraments we can disagree on Church Authority these are just so many flavors of ice cream all right in fact it was a series of very highly educated professors at I think Yale and Princeton who invented fundamentalism but I talked about these are the fundamental doctrines you must believe and then after that it's okay well once again actually we have we have Whitfield and the revivalists to thank Whitfield actually one of the lived in 13th century 18th centuries of 17 he was objectionable to many Protestants precisely because he didn't make a big deal over sacraments or Church Authority he went literally outside the buildings preached in open fields and all he cared about was the doctrine of the new birth regeneration and he said that you don't have to seek agreement on these other issues and Christ doesn't want us to which I mean that's the first place I found him when actually articulating that idea that Jesus actually doesn't want us to have Union on all these other aspects of the faith but when I went back to the 16th century I found out that the idea of unity of the faith not just on justification but on all the doctrines of the faith was extremely important to the Reformers Calvin and Luther Luther as you know refused to have any fellowship with the Swiss with the zu England's because they disagreed over the nature of the Eucharist for Luther he thought this put them outside of salvation it wasn't just a minor issue this was a deal-breaker for him and in fact it was Calvin who seemed to try to work out a compromise between swingley and Luther and both of them rejected him Calvin's attitude towards the Eucharist was fascinating he wrote a little book in 1541 called a little book on the holy supper and the first thing he says in that book is that it is essential that the different protestant factions come to agreement because a correct understanding of the eucharist is necessary for salvation now you would never hear an evangelical protestants say that today they would never say proper understanding of the eucharist is necessary for salvation all right the second thing that he says it's fascinating is that the common people don't know what to believe so the pastors of the church must come to agreement so everybody else knows what to do so you have both his idea of the authority of the church needing to decide an issue of utmost importance and necessity for the church so this is just a spirit of how to run Church and what it means to be a Christian that is so vastly different from the way of Angelica's operate today if I can again give another quote from Calvin himself on the prowl in Christ's presence in the Lord's Supper he says and I quote a true and substantial partaking of the body and blood of the Lord that's that's the other from the Institute's again book for is that is that one of the reasons why evangelicals today find it easy to dismiss disagreements is that they've basically adopted the idea that the church the sacraments the liturgy all of the material aspects of our faith are unimportant that they're at best symbolic all right and this was not the doctrine of the Reformers both or at least of not of Luther John Calvin not really he's make sure he would he would hold it except for the the church having a Thor sure sure not wasn't that action of Luther and Calvin and they both insisted on the the absolute significance of the sacraments Calvin says in a number of places that to be excluded from the sacraments is to be excluded from salvation he he believed that that infant baptism was obligatory for example and Anabaptists the precursors to modern day Baptists when they withheld their children from baptism were literally denying salvation to themselves and to their children putting themselves outside the true church and outside of salvation when people disagreed with Calvin he often utilized the power of excommunication he would put them outside the fellowship of the church and he said in a number of places that once you're put outside the Fellowship of the church when you're excluded from the sacraments then you presume that this person is damned alright so you're actually so he was so identified c'n on that he was stronger than what the Catholic Church would say by communication absolutely the church Catholic Church does not say that somebody who is excommunicated is automatically damned to hell we don't know that God makes that judgment right but you may not you act in a public way so such that you may not receive the sacraments right that's one of the reasons why of someone like James White and others get very upset that we say that you're actually indicated they assume we mean that you're damned we don't that's right but it's it's a that's a problem of difference of theology now now we have to take a breath but we want to get some of your questions and your comments as well so please stay with us thank you and welcome back we have a really nice group of folks here different parts of the country in fact even the Republic of Texas is represented by folks from different parts of the Republicans there's all kind of folks here from New York and other partner Orleans so we'd love to have you come and join us too if you have a chance to be part of our audience and come through Birmingham even you're passing through come and call our pilgrimage Department and what they can do is help you to find a schedule of some of the events going on here will be programs masses and other celebrations here and enhance full with the sisters contact them at two zero five two seven one two nine six six two zero five two seven one two nine six six or go to our website WWE WKN comm and they can help you with where you to stay as well as the scheduling and again it's fun to have you over here and also if you want more information on Calvinism from dr. Anders you can email him at calvin number two catholic so just put calvin to catholic but put the number two alright not don't spell it out don't put a t OT o just Calvin to Catholic at aol.com and he'll try to response you are you ready for some question sure let's get it up we have a caller for first of all Richard good evening father hi were you from Houston Texas the heart of the Bible Belt even even though we now have a cardinal I know you do as a matter of fact now I just live in Nashville we call that the buckle on the belt but go ahead father all my life a doctor all I have like my life I've heard that where you know Luther and Calvin they didn't really start out to create a new religion or Theology they just wanted to reform the Catholic Church now I must tell you father that my gut tells me that that's a Shibboleth about like John Paul Sartre who or some nitwit like him said I am because I think it sounds good but I've got to believe they set out to replace the Catholic Church did they are didn't Lee once and for all gentlemen well they fault that they were reforming the Catholic Church and in fact they had a very strong doctrine of the church as we've been trying to articulate so when you when you go back into the 15th century in the 14th century you find out that the the urge to reform things genuine corruptions and abuses in the church was very strong for a few hundred years there were church councils and popes reformers like Saint Francis and st. Dominic who had been working long and hard to reform the church and and Calvin and Luther were very very influenced by this tradition of reform ISM all right they introduced some novel elements but they saw themselves in continuity with about a 200 year old tradition of trying to bring new life and Reformation to the church so they would personally have denied that they were leaving the the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church even though that's in fact what they did they didn't want to and they had a high regard for the idea of church but that does seem to be pull at some point at which they realized they were making a break uh with you know as they as a matter of fact it was the Calvinists I believe who came up with the idea of the term Roman Catholic that Catholics don't call themselves Roman Catholics for the whole church because we're not really understood that they were breaking with something but they but they wanted to they personally tried to deny that they were breaking with you know with the one true church they wanted to say that we are the one true church we're the guys that are in the Pope broke with them they want to say that the Pope broke with with them exactly and but they have to evolve this whole theology of rupture to explain why this radical break how do you explain it the way Luther explained it was in terms of apocalyptic eschatology this end of the world option that the Pope is the Antichrist and this was all predicted by the book of Revelation and so on and so forth this is a very live part of Protestant theology in the 16th century and and on both sides frankly us I'm both both the the loser and Calvin would call the Pope the Antichrist but the Pope was calling them and he was calling Antichrist you know so back there I'll see your Antichrist and raise them one that's right you know so this that's right but so that there was those that sense but once you had that doctrine on the table compromise becomes impossible right you know because if the other guy is the Antichrist we don't compromise with the Antichrist yeah and then again reading the debates between Luther and the various Catholic debaters that he took on like st. keratin or Johannes Eck and others uh you know you see that there you know there is this duplicity that goes on in Luther only he'll say I love the Pope and all that and then he'll reject them so there are real problems going on with him too nobody I just got to read the debates let's take a question from our studio audience ma'am were you from Rome Hanceville alright Hanceville and what is your question either dr. Enders of other Mitch in the Holy Scriptures our Lord Jesus Christ expressed profound longing that all may be one are there any prospects for this deep-seated longing of our Lord to to happen this generation but why the various churches that's all yeah the Catholic faith the Christian faith so-called okay perhaps the other religions so well I think of that I did that what what's the possibility of their becoming a unification of Catholics and say Protestants and Orthodox well you know when I was a Protestant investigating these issues I didn't know anybody who had convert to the Catholic faith it seemed like an impossible thing to do honestly emotionally it was difficult to think about becoming Catholic I'd always been told that it was you know the enemy and I met a fellow one time a friend of mine he we were talking I said where do you go to church he says well I'm thinking of becoming Catholic and it just hit me like a ton of bricks I thought you can actually do that you can become a Catholic you know it seemed unbelievable to me but after I joined the church I began to find converts everywhere I looked and in fact many of the most pious Catholics I know in all of the parishes are former Episcopalians former Presbyterians former Baptist so they've become theology professors they've become religious they've become priests they're everywhere and and I've been very encouraged by the number of Protestants who have in fact in of the church and really brought their love for Scripture and their own experiences to the church sometimes better music and sometimes better music and and and I learned something that was interesting as a Protestant we often got ex Catholics in our churches and they would come in and you know they would join the Protestant church and almost to a man if you asked him what you know why did you join the Protestant Church they'd say well I grew up Catholic but I never really knew Christ I didn't I didn't know my faith it didn't mean anything to me it just seemed like empty ritual that sort of thing and I didn't find a living faith in Christ until I entered this Protestant church but they admitted their basis in Catholicism was poor catechesis they didn't know their Catholic faith that's why they became Protestants every Protestant that I have known personally that has joined the Catholic faith has the opposite story I was passionate in my faith I was studying the Bible with all of my heart I studied the Church Fathers with all my heart I wanted to know truth and it led me to the Catholic faith yeah and it's the opposite picture of what I found didn't yes and up this generation you know the Lord only knows but but the Catholic Church is the fit is the church that Christ founded so he's going to bring it about when he wants to I've also noticed another pattern that a lot of folks who leave a significant number not all by any means a significant number of Catholics who leave the church will have a pretty negative attitude towards it and sometimes even get into the Antichrist of Babylon type of language that you know she David Hunt would be approximately holds that but that that relates whereas I neither here many Protestants none of ones I know convert to Catholicism they don't say oh the Methodist Church is the of Babylon uh they don't say that nor do I want them to I mean I that to me that would be horrible Protestants taught me to believe in God to little Christ exact the scriptures and to reference at least the idea of the early church and they pointed me in the right direction and you know I you know we have disagreements but there's no way that I ever would look for convert to hold to a hatred of where they were before usually they love integrating it and then seeing it more pieces fit together right let's go to a caller of an on the line hello Anne Andy you there I don't think so we'll try and later see if she's done another let's go to our studio audience sir were you from behaving father I'm from Mansfield Texas great and what is your question I find it interesting listening this evening to dr. Andrews story that the further he studied is into Christianity that the realization of Catholicism came upon him and I also read Scott Hans book that he has a similar conversion story that the further he studied and it would be nice if we had a scholarship fund it could fund everyone to go get a doctorate in theology and maybe convert everyone but my question is do you have advice for those out there watching this evening that may be teetering on deciding you know or having the same revelation you did about Catholicism Azura a direction or a source that you know short of getting a doctorate in theology that they can make a decision something a little bit cheaper sure something a little cheaper yeah I think there's one core doctrine one core idea that every Protestant ought to answer for themselves okay and if once you raise the question I think it points you inevitably to the Catholic Church how do you know what the Christian faith is how do you know what the Christian faith is now instantly the Protestants is well know because the Bible tells me all right well who told you that that's where you should go to answer this question who told you did Jesus tell us the Bible is our rule of faith right now once you raise the question instantly you know no he didn't no he didn't Jesus said that he was the final authority he frequently invoked his own authority over against that of the Old Testament you've heard that it's written but I say to you and then when he ascended into heaven he gave that interpretive authority to his apostles he said I have all authority you therefore go into all nations and make disciples whoever hears you hears me whoever rejects you rejects me and then the very earliest Christians understood that is referring to the apostolic succession of bishops sayings Ignatius of Antioch in the second century said quoting the Gospel of Luke says we have to hear those who Christ sent as Christ himself namely the bishop and so the question is how do you know what the Christian faith is well you know by looking to the rule of faith that Christ gave us he gave us the teaching Church the Magisterium of the teaching Church to answer that question all you have to do is ask did Jesus tell us the Bible alone you can search the scriptures from cover to cover you'll never find jesus saying if you have a doctrinal question go to the Bible alone now he pointed us to the teaching Church in st. Paul and 2nd Thessalonians 2:15 says hold on to the traditions which I left you absolutely by word or by letter one of my favorite passages in the Church Fathers is from Tertullian the north african theologian he writes a book called the prescription against heretics and then he actually looks at this question if I have a theological question should I look to the Bible alone for an answer he raises this as a possibility is the Bible alone a sufficient rule of faith and he automatically says no he rejects that idea why well for the obvious reason that different groups have different interpretations of Scripture it history shows it's not a sufficient rule of faith how do you know what the Christian faith is in Tertullian says the only way you know is you go to the churches founded by apostles that are in apostolic succession what is the faith that those churches teach and hold that's the way you know what the Christian faith is and it's only the interpretation of Scripture that lines up with that rule of faith that is to be accepted and of course and you move to Irenaeus he he identifies the the premier Church of courses of the Church of Rome and to probably answer his question um one book that is a way to get at some of this is faith of the early fathers by Jurgens it's three paperback volumes and get that from ewtn religious catalogue calm on and that three those three volumes don't give much commentary just what did the Fathers of the Church say that's a good introduction to the teachings of the Falls and you can see whether J and D Kelly's early Christian doctrine yes another gone yes it is that's good now we have an on the line hello Anne yeah hello father hi were you from California great and what's your question my question is in the Bible when Nicodemus asked Jesus Thomas when be born again Jesus said one is born again by water and spirit he did not say you're born again by asking Jesus into your heart once said always saved water and spirit is baptism so my question is what is it the born again Eve evangelicals don't understand about the literal words of Jesus thank you do I respond to that that is such a great question because we were always taught growing up that the Catholics are the ones that don't believe the Bible and we believe the Bible and Catholics dismiss the literal word of Scripture but when I looked into it I found this example after example of this kind of thing baptism now saves you my flesh is real food my flesh is real drink the bath of rebirth and regeneration this kind of language occurs over and over again in the Bible and and really the Protestants have adopted various interpretive methods that they bring to bear to really kind of dismiss these things and push them aside and they don't realize it they don't see how they're wearing interpretive blinders a good example it's on the question of salvation when when Luther comes up with this idea of salvation by faith alone he recognizes that that that runs smack up against the teaching of Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says you know do this or else he gives us a lot of imperatives and and Luther has to come up with this whole convoluted method of basically explaining away the teaching of Jesus so he can hold to his doctrine of faith alone it's a it's a difficulty but they don't see it yet that that passage in 1st Peter 3 I'll never forget a woman who had confronted me at the airport in Denver Colorado fairly aggressively about no baptism doesn't do anything for it's just faith alone and I said if I show you in the Bible that baptism now saves us would you believe it she said no you know and that she couldn't go because that's what the verse says baptism now saves you ah and and in first Peter 3 so this is something that does she refused to deal with now that's not the case everybody with that but that lady just Romans chapter 2 tells us that were justified by works yep ma'am were you from I'm from Huntsville Alabama great it's good to have you here honey what is your question my question is mother Huntsville is not the same as Hanceville Han Solo's up farther north how's the border you work in the space program no my husband does see there you go my question was since you studied Lutheran and Calvin in the church I know that Luther is like more of a direct offshoot from Catholicism the other Protestant religions like Baptist methods all the other angelic own and everything how those come about and are those like at the same time afterwards are they offshoots from Lutheran or what what get all that is rolling with all these seems like thousands of Protestant religions we had and tens of thousands tens of tens of thousands of denominations that's a good question in the sixteenth century there were several bodies of Protestants that sort of emerged more or less at the same time Luther was first swingley was a contemporary Luther was in Germany Zwingli in Switzerland of course there's another Reformation that goes on in England that's really kind of spearheaded by the monarchy and they develop into sort of families with similar with within of family theologies that differ a little among themselves go ahead don't forget the anabaptists who also in holland and other places and the Anabaptist and calvin in in France and then Switzerland and then and then Calvinism spreads in France it spreads to England and Holland and and other places in Europe and then but because they don't have a consistent rule of faith or a consistent method for interpreting Scripture each subsequent generation produced a new leader who finally thought he had the clue had the key that would make that would bring unity to this great diversity and so they just kept multiplying denominations and they continue to multiply at an exponential rate oh yeah within but by the end of the 16th century the radio work I think 300 that's right yeah so it's you know that that split off and and it takes a while to trace even some of the Baptist groups they can call cells of say Free Will Baptist or Missionary Baptist or so but you know you have to follow that history and ethics you know some digging to to get to all the different family trees of the different communities of Calvinists Lutheran's and so on because there are still divided among themselves that's right I have another question here from our studio audience and were you from Birmingham all right and your question okay dr. Anders what do you think of the mega churches that have sprung up throughout the country and the rock music and churches and also the feel-good gospel of prosperity gospel thank you when I was evangelical I visited many different denominations and many different churches including some of these mega churches that you're talking about and by mega church that means what there are some not they call themselves nondenominational meaning they don't have any ties outside their own local congregation they don't answer to any authorities outside their local congregation but they then be very very large very very large because many of them employ a business model that is market driven just the way a business would trying to bring in people like customers there's an interesting thing about those churches that while they claim to adhere to the Bible alone is the rule of faith in practice the pastor's of those churches tend to exercise an extraordinary amount of authority in some respects inside the the group there are they almost have more authority among those Protestants than the Holy Father would among Catholics what they see can change his mind the Pope can't change his mind he can't change Catholic doctrine but these fellows can change their mind and the whole congregation goes with them I've been involved in a few of them some of them to be honest with you sort of leave me with the heebie-jeebies because they get a little cult-like and not all of them not done but the the thing is very it's geared towards being moving people emotionally manipulating them a little bit but but there's also a move by a lot of them to focus on a lot of self-help issues that they're aware of a lot of broken marriages a lot of drug and alcohol abuse spousal abuse and one of the things that very commonly goes on is that they will try to address those issues as a focus and an attractive an attractant more so than say preaching salvation they may do that on like a Wednesday night service but on a Sunday they're trying to reach out to the problems in society and they and often I have some pretty good messages on those those practical points well the health and wealth aspect many of them do preach if you if you have to another one if I have if you have three faiths you'll be rich and you won't be sick and you want to have problems that makes me profoundly sad yes and and that you know the Catholic Church teaches that sufferings come our way we're able to embrace them off of them to the Lord share in the sufferings of Christ which of course is a very biblical idea and these things have value they help us on our way to heaven I have known people in those groups that that had suffering had illnesses handicaps and so forth and they were never able to come to terms with them because they felt like well this is a punishment and if only I had true faith I wouldn't be in this wheelchair yeah yeah and heartbreaking it is you know it's so one of those things where the theology of st. Paul Matta fact one a minister who converted I had been a Pentecostal seminary professor in fact I said that if I didn't read it myself in Colossians chapter one that Paul said I make up for what is still lacking in the sufferings of Christ I could never ever believe that but it's there in the pen Scripture that's right and that this and suffering does have a role and that was a real shock to him my shock but it was all something quite important let me just give out your information again if you want to find out more information on Calvinism please contact dr. and Anders or you can go to Calvin the number two Catholic so Calvin to Catholic at aol.com and know he can response that question so you know try to be ready you'll getting some questions he's just one guy by himself let me give you all the blessing may God bless you and keep your cause his face to shine upon you the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit amen and you know we're still in something of a difficult position because uh we are still down a bit uh over the last a week or so your help has been starting to come in because we've been you know well over nearly $800,000 down so we do need your help so that you know we can pay up our bills and bring you guests not only from here in Nashville Birmingham which is a great money saver but you know we do bring people from all over and so we need your support because this network is brought to you by you and that you make it possible so please keep us in between your gas bill your electric bill and your cable bill and we'll be able to pay all of our bills god bless you and thank you very much you

Channel: EWTN

Views: 187,385

Rating: 4.7699294 out of 5

Keywords: Catholic

Id: qibg-m2vUno

Length: 56min 32sec (3392 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 24 2010