[MUSIC] [APPLAUSE] >> Fr. Pacwa: THANK YOU! THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WELCOME, I'M FATHER MITCH PACWA AND WELCOME TO EWTN LIVE. WHERE WE BRING YOU GUESTS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. TONIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT SACRED SCRIPTURE AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WITH CATHOLIC APOLOGIST, JIMMY AKIN. BEFORE BUT BEFORE WE HEAR FROM HIM, WE WANT TO HEAR FROM EWTN'S DIRECTOR OF ACQUISITIONS AND CO-PRODUCTIONS, MR. JOHN ELSON, ABOUT A NEW PROGRAM PREMIERING LATER TONIGHT ON EWTN. JOHN HOW ARE YOU? >> GOOD TO SEE YOU. >> Fr. Pacwa: WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN UP TO? >> WELL, LOTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS AND TODAY IS THE FEAST DAY OF ST. FRANCIS CABRINI, KNOWN AS MO MOTHER CABRINI. FRANCIS XAVIER. >> RIGHT, AND TONIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO BE ENTITLED A DOCU-DRAMA, MOTHER CABRINI AND THE HEART OF JESUS. AS A YOUNG NUN, SHE WAS VERY IMPRESSED BY THE LOCUTIONS TO MARY AL - CONWAY, AND THE HEART OF JESUS. AND SHE HAD A MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE LOVE OF CHRIST, AND IT IMPELLED MOTHER CABRINI TO BRING ORDER TO AN ORPHANAGE AS A YOUNG WOMAN AND THEN TO MINISTER TO ITALIAN IMMIGRANTS IN NEW YORK AS A RELIGIOUS. SHE WENT ON TO FOUND HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS, AND ORPHANAGES AROUND THE WORLD, AGAIN, PROPELLED BY HER PROFOUND LIFE OF CONTEMPLATION AND PRAYER. HER AWARENESS AND INTERIORIZATION IF YOU WILL OF THE LOVE OF CHRIST. SO, WE HAVE A BRIEF CLIP THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SHOW EVERYBODY. >> Fr. Pacwa: LET'S DO THAT. THIS IS FROM MOTHER CABRINI AND THE HEART OF JESUS, WHICH IS GOING TO BE PREMIERING LATER TONIGHT. SO, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT CLIP. >> NICE TO MEET YOU. I'M MOTHER CABRINI. >> MOTHER CABRINI NEVER THOUGHT OF GOING TO THE UNITED STATES IN HER LIFE, AND TAKING CARE OF ALL OF THE ITALIANS WHO WERE IMMIGRANTING TO THOSE LANDS. MOTHER CABRINI WISHED TO BECOME A MISSIONARY TO CHINA. BUT SHE HAD A SPECIAL EXPERIENCE THAT CHANGED HER LIFE. AND THAT IS, SHE MET POPE LEO XIII. WHEN HE MET CABRINI, HE TOLD HER AS WE KNOW, CABRINI DON'T GO TO CHINA BUT TO THE UNITED STATES WHERE THE ITALIANS ARE WAITING FOR YOU. >> IN THE END, SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS AN EMERGENCY, THIS GREAT MIGRATORY MOVEMENT OF WHICH SHE WAS NOT SO AWARE UNTIL SHE WENT TO ROME. AND SHE WAS ALSO VERY DOCILE TO THE VOICE OF THE SPIRIT. >> BUT MOTHER CABRINI'S GREAT INSIGHT WAS THIS, IN MY OPINION, NEVER LEAVE ANYONE ALONE. SHE VISITED THE FAMILIES, HER SISTERS WENT FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE, TO THE STREETS, TO THE SQUARES, AND GATHERED ORPHAN CHILDREN. THEIR HOUSES WERE OPEN TO EVERY ONE. WIDE OPEN TO ANYONE. >> WE ARE MISSIONARIES OF THE SACRED HEART OF JESUS. WE ARE BEARERS OF THE LOVE OF CHRIST IN THE WORLD. [APPLAUSE] >> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, YOU KNOW, SHE'S ACTUALLY, NOT ONLY BECAUSE SHE TOOK THE NAME FRANCES XAVIER BUT SHE WAS A MISSIONARY AND AFTER SHE TOOK THAT NAME, HE'S THE P PATRON OF THE MISSIONS ALG WITH ST. THERESE OF LITTLE FLOWER. BUT SHE WAS ALSO OUR NEIGHBOR IN CHICAGO FOR THE JESUITS. WE HAD A SCHOOL AND A PARISH AND THERE WAS A NUMBER OF FAMOUS STORIES, JUST LIKE IT SAID, SHE DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE ANYONE ALONE. SHE NEVER LEFT THE RECTOR OF THE JESUIT SCHOOL ALONE. SHE WAS ALWAYS GOING TO HIM FOR MONEY. [LAUGHTER] EVEN WHEN HE HID UNDER HIS DID HE SAY. FINALLY SHE WOULDN'T -- DESK. AND HE THOUGHT SHE LEFT, SO HE TOOK HIS LITTLE HANDKERCHIEF AND WAVED IT AS A WHITE FLAG AND SURRENDERED! I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING THAT. YOU PROBABLY HAVE THAT STORY IN YOUR VIDEO. [LAUGHTER] WE'LL BE BACK IN JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES WITH TONIGHT'S GUEST SO, PLEASE, STAY WITH US! [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE] >> Fr. Pacwa: THANK YOU, THANK YOU AND WELCOME BACK. OUR GUEST TONIGHT GREW UP PROTESTANT IN THE GREAT STATE OF ARKANSAS. HE BEGAN INTENSIVELY STUDYING THE BIBLE IN ORDER TO BECOME A PROTESTANT PASTOR OR PERHAPS A SEMINARY PROFESSOR. BECAUSE THIS FELLA IS PRETTY BRIGHT AND HE COULD DO IT. BUT THE MORE HE STUDIED SACRED SCRIPTURE, THE MORE HE FOUND IT TO BE SUPPORTIVE OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH. HE TOOK THAT EXPERIENCE AND YEARS OF APOLOGETICS WORK FOR "CATHOLIC ANSWERS," AND PUT TOGETHER HIS LATEST BOOK, WHICH HAS A REAL SHOCKER FOR A TITLE, "THE BIBLE IS A CATHOLIC BOOK." THIS IS BY JIMMY AKIN. AND JOINING US VIA SKYPE, FROM THE OFFICES OF CATHOLIC ANSWERS, IN SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, PLEASE, WELCOME TO JIMMY AKIN. YOU THERE, JIMMY? >> YEAH, I AM, HOW'S IT GOING? >> Father: WELL, IT'S AFTER HALLOWEEN, OF COURSE, BUT SURE LOOKS LIKE MAGIC TO ME. I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THEY DO ALL THIS STUFF! BUT WE WERE ABLE TO GET YOU BY SKYPE. IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE. LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND. WHAT MOTIVATED YOU TO WRITE THIS BOOK? >> Guest: WELL, THERE WAS A COUPLE OF THINGS. ONE OF THEM IS, I'VE JUST BEEN FASCINATED BY THE HISTORY OF THE BIBLE. I LOVE STORIES. I LOVE DETECTIVE STORIES AND UNDERSTANDING HOW THE BIBLE CAME TO US IS LIKE A BIG DETECTIVE STORY. SO, I'VE JUST BEEN PERSONALLY FASCINATED WITH THIS SUBJECT FOR A LONG TIME. AND A LOT OF PEOPLE, EVEN ACTIVE CATHOLICS WHO GO TO MASS EVERY SUNDAY AND MAYBE EVEN DAILY, THEY HEAR THE BIBLE READ AT MASS, BUT MOST OF THEM DON'T KNOW HOW WE GOT IT. IT'S ALMOST, LIKE, KIND OF LIKE IT FELL OUT OF THE SKY ONE DAY. AND THERE'S A REAL ADVENTURE STORY HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE. SO, I WANTED TO WRITE THIS BOOK FOR THAT REASON. ALSO, CATHOLIC ANSWERS WAS WANTING TO HAVE A BOOK THAT WE COULD UNDERSTAND, LIKE THE TITLE SAYS, THE BIBLE IS CATHOLIC. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT CATHOLICS SHOULD BE INTIMIDATED BY. NOT SOMETHING THAT BELONGS TO OTHER GROUPS OF CHRISTIANS. THAT IT'S A GIFT. GOD USED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO GIVE THE WORLD THIS GIFT OF THE BIBLE. IT'S A CATHOLIC BOOK IN A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT SENSES AND WE WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT. THE REASON THIS IS BROUGHT UP, A LOT OF FOLKS, EVEN IN THE EVANGELICAL COMMUNITIES, THEY TAKE THE BIBLE FOR GRANTED. BUT SOMETIMES THEY DON'T THINK THROUGH THE IDEA THAT THE BIBLE WAS LONG IN EXISTENCE, COPIES AND TRANSLATIONS OF THE BIBLE PRECEDED THE BIRTH OF MARTIN LUTHER, JOHN CALVIN OR ANY OF THE OTHER REFORMERS. YET, ALONE, THE LATER CHURCHES. SO, THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THE BIBLE EXISTED IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH LONG BEFORE THOSE WHO STARTED THE VARIOUS PROTESTANT CHURCHES CAME INTO BEING, THEY DIDN'T EXIST YET. THAT'S WHY THIS IS SOMETHING OF A SURPRISE TO SEE THIS CATHOLIC QUALITY TO THE BIBLE. AND IT'S A CATHOLIC STORY TO KNOW HOW WE HAVE THE BIBLE, HOW WE KNOW WHICH BOOKS BELONG IN IT AND ALL THAT. SO, TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT. >> Guest: WELL, THE BASIC REASON WHY WE HONOR THE BOOKS OF SCRIPTURE THAT WE DO, RATHER THAN SOME OTHER SET OF BOOKS IS BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDED THE CHURCH TO RECOGNIZE CERTAIN BOOKS AS DIVINELY AUTHORITATIVE. AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WAS KIND OF A PROCESS. ACTUALLY, THERE WAS A TIME BEFORE WE HAD ANY BOOKS OF SCRIPTURE. WRITING IS NOT A HUMAN UNIVERSAL. SPEECH IS. WE'VE ALWAYS HAD ORAL SPEECH GOING BACK AS FAR AS THE HUMAN RACE GOES. AND WRITING DOESN'T. WE KNOW WHEN WRITING BEGAN. IT BEGAN ABOUT FIVE THOUSAND YEARS AGO, LITTLE MORE THAN THAT. THE MESOPOTAMIANS INVENTED IT FIRST, THEN SHORTLY THEREAFTER, EGYPTIANS CAME UP WITH THEIR HEIR I WAS. AND HEBREW DIDN'T START TO BE WRITTEN UNTIL AROUND 1,000BC SO IN ALL OF THE PRIOR AGES OF WORLD HISTORY, GOD MADE HIMSELF KNOWN ONLY IN ORAL FORM BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WRITIN. SO, ORAL TRADITION WAS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR PASSING ON THE WORD OF GOD. >> Father: AND I WAS GOING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A PROTO SEMITIC ALPHABET. BUT IT WAS FOUND ON THE SINAI PENINSULA AT PRISON CAMP'S. WHERE PEOPLE WERE WORKING IN THE MINES FOR THE EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT. SO, IT WAS THE VERY BEGINNINGS OF THE SEMITIC LANGUAGE BUT NOT IN ISRAEL, AS YOU SAID. AND IT DIDN'T APPLY, THE HEBREW LANGUAGE BUT IT WAS THE OTHER COMMITTIC LANGUAGES IN THE AREA. -- SEMITIC LANGUAGES IN THE AREA. AND WE DON'T SEE MUCH WRITTEN DOWN UNTIL, YOU SAID ABOUT THE 11TH CENTURY. >> RIGHT, I MENTIONED THAT IN THE SINAI AND DATES AROUND 1600BC SAME LANGUAGE FAMILY OF HEBREW AND UNCLEAR WHICH LANGUAGE IT WAS. BUT THEN YOU HAVE THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES STARTING TO BE WRITTEN A BIT LATER. SO, THERE WERE A LOT OF DIFFERENT HEBREW WRITINGS MADE. SOME OF THEM ARE IN OUR OLD TESTAMENT AND SOME OF THEM NOT. CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES REGARDED, YOU KNOW, VARIOUS BOOKS FROM THAT PERIOD AS BEING SCRIPTURAL AND THEY HANDED THOSE DOWN AS DIVINELY REVEALED. AND IT WAS NEW INFORMATION THAT WAS NOT PREVIOUSLY. THERE ARE HINTS OF THE DOCTRINE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. BUT IT'S NOT ARTICULATED AS CLEARLY AS IT IS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. SO, ALL OF THIS NEW REVELATION THAT JESUS BROUGHT US INCLUDING HIS PARABLES, PROPHECIES AND SO FORTH, THIS WAS ALSO ORIGINALLY PASSED DOWN IN ORAL FORM. JESUS DIDN'T WRITE ANY BOOKS. ONLY ONE REFERENCE TO HIM WRITING ANYTHING AT ALL IN SCRIPTURE. AND THAT'S WITH HIS FINGER ON THE GROUND. >> IN THE DIRT, WHICH NOBODY HAS THAT. >> Guest: EXACTLY. AND HE DIDN'T COMMAND THE APOSTLES TO START WRITING ANYTHING. AND IT WAS ACTUALLY YEARS BEFORE THE FIRST BOOKS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT BEGAN TO BE WRITTEN. EVENTUALLY, THEY GOT WRITTEN, AND ALSO, OTHER EARLY CHRISTIAN WORKS GOT WRITTEN AND THERE WAS SOME DEBATE ABOUT SOME OF THESE, SHOULD THEY BE COUNTED AS SCRIPTURE OR NOT. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO BE AN APOSTLE IN ORDER TO WRITE A BOOK OF SCRIPTURE. IT WAS SUFFICIENT IN SOME CASES TO BE THE COMPANION OF AN APOSTLE, LIKE MARK, LUKE, OR EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE NOT THEMSELVES APOSTLES, GOD USED THEM AS INSTRUMENTS FOR DIVINE INSPIRATION AND GAVE US TO THE GOSPEL THROUGH THEM. SO, THERE WERE OTHER MEN WHO WERE ASSOCIATED WITH THE APOSTLES, LIKE, POPE SAINT CLEMENT OF ROME WHO MAY BE MENTIONED IN PHILIPPIANS, BUT EVEN IF HE'S NOT MENTIONED IN PHILIPPIANS OR NOT THE SAME CLEMENT, HE WAS CERTAINLY LIVING RIGHT THERE IN ROME AND THE FATHERS AND ORDAINED BY PETER. HE WAS ALSO A COMPANION OF THE APOSTLES. YOU FIND FIGURES IN THE EARLY CHURCH SAYING THE LETTER THAT HE WROTE TO THE CHURCH OF CORINTH THAT WE KNOW AS 1 CLEMENT, THAT LETTER SHOULD BE CONSIDERED SCRIPTURE. THERE WAS ALSO ANOTHER GENTLEMAN IN ROME NAMED HERMUS AND HE RECEIVED A SEVERAL PRIVATE REVELATIONS AND MANY EARLY CHURCH FATHERS THOUGHT THAT SHOULD BE PART OF SCRIPTURE. AND THERE WAS A CHALLENGE THAT THE CHURCH HAD TO DISCERN WHICH BOOKS WERE AND WERE NOT. AND IT GOT EVEN MORE COMPLICATED IN THE SECOND CENTURY WHEN VARIOUS HERETICS STARTED PRODUCING A BUNCH OF NEW, SO-CALLED SCRIPTURES THAT THEY WANTED TO SEE HONORED AS BIBLICAL. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND I BELIEVE IT'S WORTH POINTING OUT THAT THE SAME KIND OF STRUGGLE APPEARED IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY WHERE -- >> Guest: YEAH. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND THERE WERE DIFFERENT GROUPS AT KUMRAN WHERE THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS WERE FOUND. THERE'S NO COPY OF THE BOOK OF ESTHER BUT YOU HAVE 1 SOMETHING AND BOOK OF MACCABEES. I MEAN, THERE WAS NOT AN AGREEMENT AMONG THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, EVENTUALLY, EVEN THE 39 BOOKS THAT ARE STILL READ BY JEWISH PEOPLE AS SCRIPTURE, AS THEIR BIBLE. THAT WASN'T FINALLY DECIDED. YOU SEE, THE ARGUMENT IS GOING ON IN THE LIFE OF RABBI AKIBA, IN THE EARLY SECOND CENTURY AD. SO, THESE KIND OF DISCUSSIONS AND QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT IS SACRED WAS PART OF JEWISH DISCUSSION AMONG THE VARIOUS SECTS OF THE JEWS. EVENTUALLY THE PHARISEES HAD THE FINAL WORD AND THEN AMONG THE CHRISTIANS AS WELL. >> YEAH, IT'S A PARALLEL STORY. I DO GO INTO THIS IN THE BIBLE AS A CATHOLIC BOOK. I TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENT GROUPS OF JEWS, THE DIFFERENT SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT. AND WHICH BOOKS DIFFERENT GROUPS SEEM TO HAVE REGARDED AS SCRIPTURE. IN JESUS' OWN DAY, THERE WAS NOT AGREEMENT. THERE WERE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT GROUPS THAT HAD DIFFERENT IDEAS. AND EVEN WITHIN A GROUP, THERE WAS A VARIATION OF OPINION. AND YOU MENTIONED THE PHARISEES THAT GAVE BIRTH TO MODERN RA BINNIC JUDAISM AND THERE WAS AN OPINION AMONGST THEM THAT COUNTED AS SCRIPTURE. SOME DIDN'T LIKE ESTHER, SOME DIDN'T LIKE EZEKIEL, SOME DIDN'T LIKE RUTH. SOME OF THEM DID LIKE SIRACH AD IT'S NOT EVEN IN THE JEWISH BIBLE TODAY. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND IT WAS MENTIONED SOME DIDN'T WANT SONG OF SONGS OR ECCLESIASTES. SO, HE SWAYED THEM TOWARD THE OPINION OF THAT. I BRING THAT UP, BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN IMPORTANT DISCUSSION ON THIS IN YOUR BOOK. IT'S IMPORTANT FOR FOLKS TO SEE THAT THIS IS A PART OF THE PROCESS OF DISCERNMENT AND TRADITION. >> Guest: YES. AND THE ROLE OF TRADITION IS ONE THAT'S OFTEN OVERLOOKED. I KNOW THAT WHEN I WAS A PROTESTANT AND CONTEMPLATING SOME OF THESE FOUNDATIONAL ISSUES, LIKE, HOW DID WE GET THE BIBLE. EVENTUALLY, I HAD TO REALIZE, THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT THE CHURCH GAVE US. THIS WAS SOMETHING, GOD DIDN'T GIVE ME A PRIVATE REVELATION OF THESE 67 BOOKS ARE THE BOOKS. AND GOD DIDN'T GIVE ANYBODY ELSE A PRIVATE REVELATION. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT CAME TO US THROUGH THE CHURCH. AND WHEN YOU STUDY HOW THE CHURCH DID IT, THE CHURCH DID IT ON THE BASIS OF TRADITION. AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY THE CASE WITH THE NEW TESTAMENT. YOU CAN SHOW THAT VERY CLEARLY, BECAUSE IN THE SECOND CENTURY, THIRD CENTURY AND THE FOURTH CENTURY, YOU HAD HERETICS WRITING BOOKS OF SCRIPTURE THAT THEY WOULD THEN CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE APOSTLES. SO, YOU HAVE THE REVELATION OF PETER TO GO ALONG WITH THE REVELATION OF JOHN. OR YOU HAVE THE SECRET BOOK OF JOHN OR THE APOCK RA FAOF JOHN AND THEY SAY JOHN THE APOSTLE WROTE THIS. SO, HOW DID THE CHURCH RECEIVE IT WHEN THE BOOKS STARTED BEING CIRCULATED. WELL, THEY USED TRADITION TO IDENTIFY THOSE BOOKS AS FAKE. AND THEY DID IT IN A COUPLE OF WAYS. ONE WAY THEY DID IT WAS BY SAYING, OKAY. IF THIS BOOK HAS REALLY BEEN PASSED DOWN TO US FROM THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES AS AUTHENTIC SCRIPTURE, IT WOULD BE READ IN CHURCH. SO, WHERE ARE THE CHURCHES THAT HAVE BEEN READING THIS THE WHOLE TIME? IF THERE'S NO TRADITION OF THIS BEING READ IN THE CHURCHES, THEN THAT'S A SIGN THAT THIS IS A RECENT DOCUMENT. IT'S NOT ACTUALLY FROM THE APOSTOLIC AGE. THE OTHER WAY THAT THEY WOULD USE TRADITION TO IDENTIFY FALSE SCRIPTURES IS, THEY WOULD LOOK AT THE CONTENT OF THE BOOK. THERE WAS A GOSPEL OF PETER. AND I MENTIONED THE SECRET BOOK OF JOB JOHN. AND THEY CONTAINED IDEAS THEY WERE CONTRARY TO THE FAITH PASSED DOWN THROUGH THE BISHOP. AND THEY WOULD SAY, THIS CRICKETS THE -- CONTRADICTS THE TRADITION THAT WAS HANDED DOWN AND THEY USED TRADITION IN MORE THAN ONE WAY TO HELP IDENTIFY WHICH BOOKS COULD OR COULD NOT COUNT AS SCRIPTURE. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF OUR PROTESTANT FRIENDS DON'T REALIZE. IT WAS ACTUALLY TRADITION THAT PLAYED A PIVOTAL ROLE IN ADDITION TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH IN DETERMINING WHICH BOOKS ACTUALLY BELONG IN THE BIBLE. >> Fr. Pacwa: AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WAS INVOLVED IN A DEBATE IN 1995, IN DALLAS, TEXAS, WHERE I WAS LIVING AT THE TIME. IN THAT DEBATE, MY INTERLOCK TORE SAID, IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE TRADITION THAT IS NOT ALREADY IN THE BIBLE. AND SMILED, I LOOKED ACROSS THE AUDIENCE AND I SAID, YES, THE TABLE OF CONTENT. BECAUSE WITHOUT THE TRADITION, NO BOOK OF THE BIBLE GIVES YOU A LIST OF THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE. SO, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT, AND THAT'S WHY ST. PAUL SAYS IN 2 THESSALONIANS 2:15, HOLD ON TO THE TRADITIONS WHICH I LEFT YOU, WHETHER BY WORD OR BY LETTER. >> Guest: YES. ANOTHER ITEM OF TRADITION COMMONLY ACCEPTED BY THE PROTESTANT FRIENDS BUT YOU WON'T FIND ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE IS THE IDEA THAT THERE AREN'T GOING TO BE ANY MORE SCRIPTURES, YOU KNOW? GOD SENT PROPHETS FOR OVER A THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE THE NEW TESTAMENT. HE SENT APOSTLES AFTERWARDS. BUT THERE'S NOTHING IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT SAYS THERE AREN'T GOING TO BE ANY MORE APOSTLES. SOMETIMES PEOPLE SAY, OH, YOU HAD TO MEET JESUS IN ORDER TO BE AN APOSTLE. BUT NO, PAUL DID NOT KNOW JESUS DURING HIS EARTHLY LIFE. JESUS APPEARED TO PAUL AND COMMISSIONED HIM TO BE AN APOSTLE. THAT'S ALL PAUL NEEDED TO BE AN APOSTLE. SO, JESUS COULD, IF HE CHOSE, CONTINUE TO APPEAR, APPOINTING NEW PROFESSION OR PROPHETS AND WRITE NEW SCRIPTURES. BUT OUR PROTESTANT FRIENDS RECOGNIZE, MOST OF THEM, THE AGE OF THE APOSTLES IS OVER. THE AGE OF PUBLIC REVELATION IS OVER. SO THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY NEW SCRIPTURES OR NEW APOSTLES. AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE KNOW BY TRADITION. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN FIND ANY BIBLE VERSE TO PROVE. >> Fr. Pacwa: IN FACT, THAT'S ALSO TRUE OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY. THERE'S NOTHING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT THAT SAYS, WELL, THAT'S IT. NO MORE REVELATION. >> IF IT WAS, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THE NEW TESTAMENT. >> BUT TRADITION HAS IT THAT THEY DON'T ADD ANYTHING TO THE SCRIPTURES. THAT IT'S DONE. SO, THIS IS, AGAIN, THAT'S VERY INTERESTING PARALLELS IN BETWEEN THE TWO COMMUNITIES, I INDEPENDT AND YET, PARALLEL AND THOUGHT ALONG THIS. SO, IN TERMS OF FINALLY, YOU HAVE THE TRADITION, ESPECIALLY THE LITURGY AND THE TRADITION OF PASSING THE BOOKS ON FROM BISHOP TO BISHOP AND SO ON. WHEN DOES THE CHURCH FINALIZE THE CANON? >> IT HAPPENED IN STAYINGS. AND I SHOW IT IN THE -- STAGES. I SHOW KNIT THE BOOK, YOU HAVE THE FORMULATING OF THE CANON. AN EXAMPLE OF THAT, YOU SEE EUSEBIUS OF CESS RIA. AND HE WAS AT THE FIRST COUNCIL IN 925. HE ATTEMPTS A LIST OF BOOKS OF SCRIPTURE PARTICULARLY THE NEW TESTAMENT. HE DIVIDES THEM INTO THREE CATEGORIES, THOSE BOOKS THAT ARE CERTAIN THAT EVERYBODY ACCEPTS AS BELONGING TO SCRIPTURE AND THOSE THAT EVERYBODY ORTHODOX REJECT AS BELONGING TO SCRIPTURE. AND THERE'S A MIDDLE CATEGORY OF BOOKS THAT ARE DISPUTED. SOME PEOPLE ACCEPT THEM AND SOME PEOPLE DON'T. BUT NOT QUITE THE LIST THAT WE HAVE TODAY. HE, FOR EXAMPLE, LISTED THE BOOK OF REVELATION AS ONE OF THE DISPUTED BOOKS. HE ALSO INCLUDED THE SHEPHERD OF HERMUS. AND HE INCLUDED THAT AS A DISPUTED BOOK. BUT BY, LATER ON IN THE 3 HUNDREDS, YOU FIND THE BASICALLY CATHOLIC CANON, OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT BEING TAUGHT AT A SERIES OF COUNCILS. ONE IS COUNCIL KNOWN AS THE SYNOD OF ROME THAT WAS HELD IN 382 UNDER POPE DAMN U.S.S. AND THEN -- DAMASUS AND THEN YOU FIND COUNCILS AFTER THAT IN HIPPO AND CARTHAGE, IN THE 390'S AND 4 HUNDREDS. AND THEY REITERATE THE SAME CANONS. PEOPLE POINT OUT, THESE ARE LOCAL COUNCILS, THEY ARE NOT ECUMENICAL COUNCILS NOT CAPABLE OF MAKING AN INFALLIBLE DEFINITION ON IT. THERE WERE GOING TO BE INDIVIDUALS HERE OR THERE THAT RAISED QUESTIONS OF THE OLD BOOKS. AND FOR THE VAST MAJORITY, THIS REALLY SETTLED IT. AND THEN, ACTUALLY, IT'S KIND OF SURPRISING TO SOME OF OUR PROTESTANT FRIENDS. HOW COULD THE CHURCH GO HUNDREDS OF YEARS WITHOUT KNOWING PRESIDELY WHAT'S IN THE CANON. AND THAT'S AN URGENT QUESTION KNOWING WHAT'S IN THE CANON IS AN URGENT QUESTION. IF YOU ARE A PROTESTANT, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO, AS A PROTESTANT FORMULATE YOUR BELIEFS BY SCRIPTURE ALONE, OR SOLA SCRIPTURE. IF THAT'S THE PRINCIPLE YOU ARE TRYING TO USE, YOU BETTER KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS AND WHAT'S NOT SCRIPTURE BECAUSE THAT IS GOING TO TELL YOU YOUR BELIEFS. IF YOU MISS A SINGLE BOOK THAT GOD MEANT TO BE SCRIPTURAL AND YOU DON'T HAVE IT IN YOUR CANON THEN YOU ARE MISSING DIVINE REVELATION THAT YOU DON'T HAVE. AND IF YOU INCLUDE IN YOUR CANON A SINGLE BOOK THAT'S NOT INSPIRED, THEN YOU ARE FEEDING FALSE DATA INTO YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM. SO, IF YOU ARE USING SCRIPTURE ALONE TO TRY TO FORMULATE YOUR BELIEFS, THEN IT'S URGENT THAT YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE CANON IS. BUT IF YOU ARE NOT USING THAT PRINCIPLE, IF YOU CAN, FOR EXAMPLE, RELY ON TRADITION AND THE MAGISTERIUM TO CLARIFY DOUBTFUL QUESTIONS, THE QUESTION OF THE CANON IS NOT AS URGENT. IF A CONTROVERSY COMES UP, YOU LOOK TO TRADITION. IF TRADITION IS NOT CLEAR, YOU LOOK TO THE MAGISTERIUM TO SETTLE IT. SO, FROM A CATHOLIC PERSPECTIVE, THERE WAS NOT AN URGENT NEED TO SETTLE THE PRECISE BOUNDARIES OF THE CANON INFALLIBLY. ASSOCIATION IT WAS NOT ACTUALLY UNTIL THE RISE OF PROTESTANTISM THAT THE FIRST MAJOR MOVEMENT THAT WAS CHALLENGING THE CANON, THAT IT HAD TO BE PRECISELY DEFINED. SO, IT WAS ACTUALLY, AT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT IN THE 15 HUNDREDS, THAT THE INFALLIBLE DETERMINATION WAS MADE. BUT ALL TRENT DID WAS REAFFIRM THE TRADITIONAL CANON THAT EVERYBODY HAD FOR ALL THESE CENTURIES. >> AND EVEN THE COUNCIL, FLORENCE, IN 1437, AS IT WAS DEALING WITH THE REUNIFICATION OF THE CHURCHES OF THE EAST, ESPECIALLY THE ORIENTAL CHURCHE, IRAQ, AND SUCH. THEY ALSO HAD TO RESTATE IT THERE SO THAT AT THAT COUNCIL, THEN FINALLY AT TRENT. BUT THE IDEA WAS, THE CANON WAS FIRST FORMED AT TRENT WOULD BE A MISSTATEMENT OF THE FACTS. >> INDEED. IN FACT, ALL TRENT DID WHEN IT ISSUED AN INFALLIBLE DECISION, IT WAS WHAT THEY TAUGHT A HUNDRED YEARS EARLIER, THE SAME CANON THAT WENT ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE 3 HUNDREDS. >> Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT. JIMMY, WE HAVE TO TAKE A LITTLE BREAK RIGHT NOW. BUT WE'RE DISCUSSING JIMMY AKIN'S WONDERFUL BOOK, THE BIBLE IS A CATHOLIC BOOK. AND I WANT YOU TO GET THAT FROM OUR RELIGIOUS CATALOGUE, ewtnRC.com. WE WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY, AS HE SAYS, THE MYSTERY, SORT OF, NOT LIKE A MURDER MYSTERY -- NOBODY DIED -- BUT TO HAVE THE MYSTERY OF ALL OF THE CLUES HOW WE KNOW WHAT'S AND THE ITEM NUMBER IS CB454. SO, WE'LL BE BACK IN JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES. PLEASE, STAY WITH US, AND WE'LL BE TALKING SOME MORE. [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE] >> Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT. WE'RE TALKING TO JIMMY AKIN OVER AT CO CATHOLIC ANSWERS, YOU CANO TO jimmyakin.com. AND ALSO, YOU CAN GO TAKE A LOOK AT CATHOLIC ANSWERS WEB SITE WHICH IS CATHOLIC.COM. THEY MUST HAVE GOTTEN ON THE INTERNET PRETTY EARLY TO GET CATHOLIC.COM. >> WE DID! >> AND YOU ARE DOING THIS AHEAD OF POPE ST. JOHN PAUL II. YOU BEAT HIM TO IT! >> WELL, IF HE HAD ASKED, WE WOULD HAVE, I'M SURE, FOUND SOME ACCOMMODATION. >> Fr. Pacwa: I'M SURE YOU WOULD. >> BUT HE DIDN'T ASK! >> Fr. Pacwa: I'M SURE YOU WOULD. SO, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A FEW THINGS. YOU AND I HAVE BOTH DONE A NUMBER OF DEBATES WITH VARIOUS FOLKS. AND WE HEAR A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT INDICATE PEOPLE HAVE A BIT OF CONFUSION ABOUT WHAT CATHOLICS THINK OF THE BIBLE AND THE HISTORY OF THE BIBLE AND THE CHURCH. EVEN IF PEOPLE SAY, WELL, MAYBE, ALL RIGHT, MAYBE YOU GUYS DID COME UP WITH THE EARLIEST CANON AND SUCH. DIDN'T YOU CHAIN THE BIBLE SO THE PEOPLE COULD NOT READ IT? WASN'T THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TRYING TO KEEP THE BIBLE AWAY FROM PEOPLE SO THEY WOULDN'T KNOW IT FOR THEMSELVES AND HAD TO HAVE IT INTERPRETED BY PRIESTS? >> Guest: SO, LET'S DEAL WITH BOTH OF THOSE. SO, THE ANSWER TO THE FIRST ONE IS, NO, WE DIDN'T CHAIN IT SO PEOPLE COULDN'T READ IT. WE CHAINED IT SO THEY COULD! >> Fr. Pacwa: WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? >> Guest: WELL, IF YOU HAVE EVER BEEN IN A BANK AND NEED TO FILL OUT A DEPOSIT SLIP OR SOMETHING, YOU MAY NOTICE THAT THE PENS IN THE BANK ARE TYPICALLY CHAINED TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM WALKING AWAY WITH THEM. SO, IN THE SAME WAY, THERE WERE CHURCHES WHERE BIBLES WOULD BE CHAINED SO THEY COULDN'T BE STOLEN FROM THE CHURCH EASILY. SO, PEOPLE COULDN'T JUST STICK THE BIBLE UNDER THEIR ARM AND WALK OFF WITH IT. SO, THE PURPOSE OF THAT -- AND INCIDENTALLY, THEY WOULD BE TEMPTED TO WALK OFF WITH THEM BECAUSE SOME OF THE SINNERS, CHURCHES SOMETIMES HAVE SINNERS IN THEM. AND THE BOOKS IN THIS PERIOD OF TIME WERE FANTASTICALLY EXPENSIVE. EVERY SINGLE PAGE. LET'S SAY IT WAS MADE OUT OF PARCHMENT WHICH IS ANIMAL SKIN, SO, EVERY SINGLE PAGE WAS HANDMAID FROM ANIMAL SKIN, LENGTHY PROCESS, RAISE THE ANIMAL, KILL THE ANIMAL AND SKINNING THE ANIMAL. FATHER, I THINK YOU KNOW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SKINNING ANIMALS. >> YES, I DO. >> AND YOU HAD TO SCAPE IT, CUT IT, BLEACH IT AND ALL OF THIS WAS A LOT OF WORK. AND A SINGLE PAGE OF PARCHMENT WAS EXPENSIVE. THEN, YOU HAD TO PAY SOMEONE TO WRITE EVERY LETTER OF EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. BECAUSE THERE WAS NO PRINTING PRESS. >> Fr. Pacwa: YES. >> Guest: AND BECAUSE MANY BIBLES WERE IN THIS PERIOD WHAT THEY CALLED ILLUMINATED. THAT MEANT, NOT ONLY DID THEY HAVE SPECIAL ILLUSTRATIONS HAND DRAWN AND HAND PAINTED IN THEM, BUT ALSO, THEY WERE COVERED IN GOLD LEAF. AND THE GOLD LEAF ALONE ADDED VALUE TO THE BIBLE. AND YOU HAD THESE GORGEOUS BIBLES THAT MONKS LABORED AWAY AT TO GIVE HONOR TO GOD AND HIS WORD. WELL, THEY WERE FANTASTICALLY EXPENSIVE. >> AND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR A COUPLE OF THE BIBLE IN OUR MONEY, IT WOULD BE EQUIVALENT OF $250,000 IN OUR MONEY. IT WAS ENORMOUSLY EXPENSIVE. >> Guest: RIGHT. YES, SO, OF COURSE, YOU TAKE SECURITY PRECAUTIONS FROM SOMEBODY STEALING THAT OR RANSOMING IT OR SELLING IT ON THE BLACK MARKET OR SCRAPING THE GOLD LEAF OFF OF IT. SO, YES, OF COURSE, THE BIBLE WAS CHAINED TO KEEP IT ACCESSIBLE FOR PEOPLE. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND THE CHURCH HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY MARVELOUS ABOUT PRESERVING AS MANY OF THE MOST ANCIENT MANUSCRIPTS POSSIBLE. NOT ONLY AT THE VATICAN LIBRARY -- WHICH I WAS ABLE TO GO TO THIS PAST WINTER. LAST JANUARY. I WAS THERE, AND I GOT TO SEE VARIOUS DOCUMENTS. YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE OLDEST COMPLETE TEXT OF THE BIBLE IN EXISTENCE AS WELL AS A PAPYRUS OF LUKE AND JOHN THAT GOES BACK TO 175AD. >> Guest: COOL. >> Fr. Pacwa: OH, I, YOU KNOW, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I, AS A STUDENT, COULD ONLY DREAM OF. SO, IT WAS JUST REMARKABLE THE CHURCH WANTS TO PRESERVE THESE OLDEST ONES TO CHECK THAT WE HAVE THE MOST ACCURATE TEXT OF THE BIBLE POSSIBLE. >> Guest: YEAH. AND BY THE WAY, SPEAKING OF COST OF THINGS IN THE ANCIENT WORLD. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, THE BIBLE AS A CATHOLIC BOOK. HOW MUCH THE APOSTLES AND ASSOCIATES WOULD HAVE HAD TO SPEND JUST TO WRITE THE ORIGINAL COPIES OF SCRIPTURE. BACK THEN, YOU HAD TO USE THE PARCHMENT WHICH WAS THE ANIMAL SKIN WHICH WE TALKED ABOUT. OR THE PAPYRUS, WHICH IS MADE FROM A REED WHICH IS ALSO HAND MADE. AND THEN YOU HAD TO HIRE A SCRIBE TO MAKE COPIES, WRITE IT FOR YOU. SO THAT MEANS ONLY RICH PEOPLE COULD AFFORD TO BUY BOOKS. AND THE CHURCH COULD POOL MONEY FROM THE DIFFERENT MEMBERS AND AFFORD THE COPIES. BUT THEY WERE WAIT OUT OF THE PRICE RANGE OF INDIVIDUALS. WERE WAY OUT OF THE PRICE RANGE OF INDIVIDUALS. SO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE AVERAGE ANCIENT LETTER AND WE HAVE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF ANCIENT LETTERS THAT HAVE SURVIVED FROM ORDINARY PEOPLE. AND IN THE ANCIENT WORLD, AVERAGE LETTER WOULD BE 87 WORDS LONG, JUST A SHEET OF PAPER. AND YOU LOOK AT ST. PAUL'S LETTER AND EVEN A FAMOUS LETTER WRITER LIKE CICERO, WHO WAS FAMOUS FOR WRITING LETTERS. HIS LETTERS WERE CONSIDERED SO GOOD, THEY WERE CONSIDERED PUBLISHABLE. PEOPLE LIKE TO READ THEM AS A LITERARY WORK. AND CICERO'S LETTERS WERE JUST 300 WORDS AVERAGE. SO, NOW, ST. PAUL'S SHORTEST LETTER TO FILE MON -- FILE MON PHILEMON AND THIS IS NOW 82 TIMES THE LENGTH OF AN ANCIENT AND YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT THEY THOUGHT WHEN IT ARRIVED. PAUL NEVER EVEN VISITED THEIR CHURCH AND WRITES THIS GODZILLA LETTER AND ONE THING THAT WOULD HAVE STRUCK THEM N- THE SIZE OF IT, IN MODERN TERMS, A SINGLE COPY OF ROMANS WOULD HAVE COST THE EQUIVALENT OF ABOUT $900! THAT'S HOW MUCH HE CARED ABOUT THEM AND WANTED TO GET OFF TO A GOOD START WITH THEM AND EXPLAIN WHO HE WAS, AND WHAT HIS VIEWS WERE TO THEM. SO, HE SPENT THE EQUIVALENT OF $900 JUST TO SEND THEM THAT LETTER! >> Fr. Pacwa: SO, WHEN YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THE COST OF THE POSTAL SERVICE TODAY, JUST REMEMBER THAT, 900 BUCKS TO SEND THAT LETTER! BUT FOR OTHERS TO KEEP ON COPYING IT WAS ALSO A GREAT EXPENSE. SO, PEOPLE CAN SAY, OH, PAPYRUS WAS LESS EXPENSIVE THAN THE VELUM, OR THE ANIMAL SKINS. BUT IF YOU HAVE EVER SEEN PAPYRUS, IT GROWS IN SAN DIEGO AS I RECALL. IT'S A TRIANGLE SHAPED PLANT STALK. AND HAVE YOU TO SLICE EACH STALK INTO AS MANY THIN SLICES PT GET THE SUGAR OUT OF IT BY SOAKING IT IN WATER. AND THEN PRESS IT. AND YOU LAY THE STRIPS TO CROSS OVER EACH OTHER AND DRY IT OUT. IT'S A LONG PROCESS TO MAKE A SICKLE -- SINGLE SHEET OF PAPYRUS. AND THAT'S WHY IT WAS SO EXPENSIVE. PAPYRUS. AND THE CHRISTIANS THOUGHT THEIR GOSPEL WAS SO IMPORTANT, THEY WERE READY TO MAKE THAT KIND OF CONTRIBUTION AND SHARE THAT WORD WORD. >> Guest: INDEED. AND WE ARE THE BETTER FOR IT. IT'S ALSO ONE OF THE REASONS WHY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE MODERN BIBLE, WE THINK OF IT AS A SINGLE BOOK. BUT IN THE ANCIENT WORLD, IT WAS NOT A SINGLE BOOK, IT WAS A LIBRARY OF BOOKS. THAT'S WHY WE TALK ABOUT THERE BEING 70-SOMETHING BOOKS OF THE BIBLE. OR IF YOU ARE A PROTESTANT, 67 BOOKS OF THE BIBLE. INDIVIDUALLY THOSE WERE INDIVIDUAL BOOKS AND MUCH SHORTER THAN OUR BOOKS. TODAY, A TYPICAL NOVEL IS, LIKE, BETWEEN 70 AND 120,000 WORDS LONG. BUT THE LONGEST OF THE GOSPEL IS, LIKE, 20,000 WORDS. SO, IT'S ONLY A FRACTION OF THE LENGTH AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF THE PRICE PRESSURE. IF YOU ARE HAVING HAND MADE PIECES OF WRITING MATERIAL, LIKE PARCHMENT OR VELUM, DESCRIBE HAND COPY OF EVERY WORD, THEN YOU WANT TO HAVE A BOOK BE AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE TO CONVEY THE ESSENTIAL INFORMATION. AND THAT'S WHY THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE ARE INDIVIDUAL BOOKS EVEN THOUGH TODAY WE THINK OF THEM AS ONE BIG BOOK. >> Fr. Pacwa: WHEN YOU ARE READING THAT, AND KEEPING THAT IN MIND, THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT ABOUT INTERPRETING THE TEXT. BECAUSE WE SEE IN SOME OF THE TEXTS THAT THERE IS REPETITION. NOW, THE WRITERS ARE TRYING TO KEEP IT SHORT BECAUSE IT'S SO EXPENSIVE BUT THEY SHOW REPETITION, FOR INSTANCE, IN SOME OF THE PARABLES WHEN OUR LORD GIVES THE PARABLE AND THEN THE EXPLANATION, YOU KNOW, FOLLOWING ALONG CLOSELY. FOR THEM TO WRITE OUT THAT MEANS THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. REPETITION WAS NOT JUST, OH, GOIT AN EXTRA PIECE OF PAPER HERE. I'LL JUST KEEP WRITING. NO. NO. THIS IS ABOUT SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT. AND WE LEARN TO BE EXTRA ATTENTIVE TO THE MEANINGS OF EACH WORD BECAUSE THEY WERE CHOOSING THEM CAREFULLY AND WRITING THEM DOWN AND CONVEYING WHAT JESUS SAID. >> AND A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT WHERE REPETITION IS USED TO ABSOLUTELY UNDERSCORE A POINT, AT THE BEGINNING OF PAUL'S LETTER TO THE GALATIANS WHERE HE SAYS, IF ANYBODY COMES TO YOU, WHETHER IT'S ME OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, IF ANYBODY COMES TO YOU PREACHING A DIFFERENT GOSPEL THAN THE ONE YOU ACCEPTED, THEN LET THEM BE AN ANATHEMA. AND HE SAYS, I'M GOING TO SAY THAT AGAIN. AND HE SAYS THE EXACT SAME THING AGAIN. THAT DRIVES HOME THE POINT. THE GOSPEL IS SUPREME DO NOT ACCEPT ANY SUBSTITUTE. >> Fr. Pacwa: EXACTLY. IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF UNDERSTANDING HOW THE BIBLE CAME INTO BEING BUT ALSO, TO SEE THAT THAT HAS AN IMPACT ON OUR UNDERSTANDING OF IT. AND HERE'S SOMETHING ELSE TOO. THINK THAT YOU DEAL WITH. IN THE EARLY CENTURIES, HAVING A COPY OF THE BIBLE IN YOUR POSSESSION WAS A DEATH SENTENCE DURING VARIOUS PERIODS OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE. YOU WOULD BE EXECUTED FOR THAT. JUST AS WAS TRUE FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE, IN THE TIME OF THE MACCABEES. HAVING A COPY OF THE SCROLL OF TORAH WAS A DEATH SENTENCE. AND PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE RISK OF DEATH WAS WORTH IT FOR THE WORD OF GOD. AND THIS IS A GREAT POINT ABOUT APPRECIATING THE IMPORTANCE AND SIGNIFICANCE OF THE SCRIPTURES. >> Guest: AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I TALK ABOUT, THE BIBLE AS A CATHOLIC BOOK. I EVEN POINT OUT HOW ONE OF THE THINGS, BECAUSE BOOKS WERE SO EXPENSIVE AND SO PRECIOUS WHAT THE ROMAN AUTHORITIES WOULD DO, DURING THE AGE OF PERSECUTIONS, THEY WOULD SAY, WE WANT TO DEPRIVE THIS LOCAL CHURCH OF ITS MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCES. AND SO, WE WANT IT SCRIPTURES. SO, THEY GO TO PEOPLE THAT THEY THOUGHT WERE CHRISTIANS AND SAY, OH, HAND OVER THE SCRIPTURES. WELL, IN LATIN, TO HAND OVER IS TRADERE, AND THOSE THAT WERE WILLING TO HAND IT OVER UNDER PERSECUTION WERE KNOWN AS TRAITORS. THAT'S WHERE WE'VE GOTTEN THE MODERN WORD TRAITOR. IT WAS PEOPLE WHO WERE WILLING TO HAND OVER THE SCRIPTURES BECAUSE THEY WERE THIS IR REPLACEABLE RESOURCE. THE CHURCH DIDN'T HAVE MONEY TO JUST BUY A NEW BIBLE FOR 50 BUCKS. TODAY, YOU CAN GET BIBLES ON THE INTERNET FOR FREE! BUT THEY COST HUNDREDS OF OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, THE EQUIVALENT IN THE ANCIENT WORLD AND THAT'S WHY THE ROMAN AUTHORITIES WENT AFTER THEM. THEY COULDN'T BE REPLACED. AND THE FAITHFUL CHRISTIANS WERE WILLING TO PUT THEMSELVES AT SUCH A RISK TO BE PROTECTED. >> ALSO, IS PART OF THE EXPLANATION, IN THE FIRST THREE CENTURIES THEY DID NOT COME UP WITH THE CANON. IT WAS TOO RISKY TO COME TOGETHER AND DISCUSS THAT. AND SHARE THE TEXT BECAUSE THE TEXTS COULD BE PUT AT RISK. IT TOOK TIME AFTER CONSTANTINE GAVE FREEDOM OF RELIGION. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE, SOMETIMES PEOPLE SAY, HE MADE CHRISTIANITY THE OFFICIAL RELIGION. NO. NO. HE GAVE FREEDOM OF RELIGION TO EVERYBODY, INCLUDING THE CHRISTIANS. THEN, THEY COULD DISCUSS THE CANON AND WHAT'S IN THE BIBLE AND WHAT DOESN'T. DURING THE TIME OF PERSECUTION, THEY COULDN'T EVEN BROCHURE THE TOPIC YET. >> THAT'S A GOOD POINT. EARLIEST CANONS ALL COME AFTER THE EDICT OF TOLERATION IN THE EARLY 3 HUNDREDS. >> Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. RIGHT. THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE, THOUGH, AND YOU HEAR IT EVERY SO OFTEN. IT'S WRITTEN IN SOME BOOKS THAT I'VE SEEN. DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PUT THE BIBLE ON THE INDEX OF FORBIDDEN BOOKS? >> Guest: NO. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS NEVER PUT THE BIBLE ON THE INDEX OF FORBIDDEN BOOKS. WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS, AND WE DON'T HAVE THE INDEX OF FORBIDDEN BOOKS ANY MORE. BUT WHEN IT WAS AROUND, THE CHURCH PUT CERTAIN DEFECTIVE TRANSLATIONS ON THE INDEX AND SAY, YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THIS EDITION. JUST LIKE OUR PROTESTANT FRIENDS SAY, DON'T READ THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS NEW WORLD TRADITION BECAUSE IT MISS TRAN LATHES THE GREEK TO HIDE THE DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST. SO, IN THE SAME WAY, OTHER TRANSLATIONS WERE DELIBERATELY TRANSLATE TOAD GET THE DOCTRINE WRONG. AND OF COURSE, THE CHURCH SAID, DON'T READ THOSE. BUT IT NEVER PUT THE BIBLE ITSELF ON THE INDEX. >> AND THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS MISTRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN MISS TRANSLATED AGAIN. AND THEY KEEP ADDING NEW MISTRANSLATIONS EVERY TIME YOU WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH IT. YOU CAN'T TRUST IT. YOU HAVE TO FORCE THEM TO ACCEPT THE KING JAMES BIBLE. AND THAT'S A MUCH BETTER TRANSLATION. BUT IT'S FAKE TRANSLATIONS LIKE WHAT THE JEHOVAH WITNESSES PASS OUT THAT IS FORBIDDEN AND NOT ACCURATE TRANSLATIONS. AND IN FACT, I ALWAYS LIKE TO POINT OUT. YOU KNOW, MY MOTHER BOUGHT US A FAMILY BIBLE WHEN I WAS 6-YEAR-OLD. WE WERE LIVING IN COLORADO SPRINGS, COLORADO AND A BIBLE SALESMAN CAME TO OUR PARISH AND SELLING THEM AFTER MASS. SO, SHE BOUGHT ONE. AND IN THERE WAS PRINTED BECAUSE ALL CATHOLIC BIBLES HAD TO HAVE THIS PRINTED, THAT YOU CAN HAVE AN INDULGENCE FOR READING THE SCRIPTURE, ALONE OR IN A GROUP. BUT THE POPE REQUIRED THE INDULGENCE TO BE PRINTED TO ENCOURAGE CATHOLICS TO READ THE BIBLE. NOT DISCOURAGE. >> Guest: I WAS GOING TO BRING UP THIS POINT. SOMETIMES PEOPLE SAY, OH SH, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOESN'T WANT CATHOLICS TO READ THE SCRIPTURE. WHY DOES IT GIVE INDULGENCES FOR READING IT? THE INDULGENCE STILL EXISTS EVEN THOUGH IT MAY NOT BE WRITTEN IN EVERY SINGLE BIBLE. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND YEAH, WHEN I WAS A KID -- YEARS AGO -- IT HAD TO BE PRINTED. BUT TODAY I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY DON'T PUT THAT IN THERE. IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW. THERE IS AN INDULGENCE AND UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS, A PLENARY INDULGENCE FOR READING SCRIPTURE. WE WANT PEOPLE TO READ THE BIBLE. AND IT'S JUST, WHAT ABOUT PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE? WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THAT. >> WELL, SOMETIMES YOU HEAR PEOPLE SAY, THERE'S NO ROLE FOR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OR PERSONALLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SCRIPTURE MEANS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND THAT'S NOT TRUE. BECAUSE GOD GAVE EVERY ONE OF US THE GIFT OF REASON. I MEAN, IF HE WENT TO THEIT.- TROUBLE OF GIVING YOU A GIFT, HE EXPECTS YOU AUTO TO -- YOU TO USE IT. HE EXPECTS YOU TO DO YOUR BEST, READ HIS WORD AND UNDERSTAND IT ACCORDING TO YOUR BUILT. WHAT HE DOESN'T WANT IS YOU MAKING YOUR OWN PERSONAL INTERPRETATION SUPREME. HE DOESN'T WANT YOU PRETENDING TO BE THE POPE. SO, HE ALSO GAVE US TRADITION, IN ADDITION TO SCRIPTURE. AND TRADITION IS A WAY HIS WORD IS PASSED ON TUESDAY. SO, WE NEED TO READ SCRIPTURE IN LIGHT OF THE CHURCHES MAGISTERIUM AND THE TEACHING AUTHORITY. AND WE NEED TO RESPECT THAT AUTHORITY THAT HE GAVE THE CHUCK CHURCH. AND SO, TRADITION AND MAGISTERIUM ARE THERE TO HELP MAKE SURE WHEN WE DO SEEK TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE THAT WE DON'T GET IT WRONG. THEY ARE NOT THERE TO TELL US, HERE ARE ALL OF THE ANSWERS. SO, JUST HERE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO THINK FOR YEAR SELF. BUT THEY ARE THERE TO TELL US, HEY, DON'T GO THERE, YOU ARE GOING INTO JEHOVAH'S WITNESS AND YOU HAVE BOUNDARIES FOR THE DIVINE AUTHORITY. WE NEED TO RESPECT THEM. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND SOME PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE, FOR WHICH THE CHURCH GIVES OFFICIAL INTERPRETATIONS. BUT MOST PASSAGES ARE NOT. AND IT'S MORE LIKE, THINK OF IT AS UMPIRES AT A BASEBALL GAME WHERE THAT OPINION IS OUT! STRIKEOUT ON JEHOVAH'S WITNESS OR ARIAN HERETICS OR OTHER PEOPLE. AND YOU HAVE THOSE, YOU CAN LOOK THEM UP IN THE CATECHISM AND YOU SEE IT THERE. BUT FOR THE MOST PART, YOU CAN HAVE A PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. YOU KNOW, A PERSONAL INTERPRETATION AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T CONTRADICT WHAT THE CHURCH IS ALREADY DEFINED. AND THEN, IT'S SORT OF, LIKE, SAYING, HERE'S THE LIMIT. AND THEN IN BASEBALL. YOU CAN'T BE HITTING THE BALL ANY PLACE EXCEPT THE BATTER'S CAGE. YOU GOT TO BE THERE. IN THE BATTER'S BOX. AND YOU CAN'T JUST HIT ANYWHERE YOU LIKE. THERE ARE LIMITS. AND THERE ARE ALSO LIMITS IN INTERPRETATION BUT THIS IS GOOD FOR US. >> Guest: AND THAT'S ACTUALLY THE ROLE, PART OF THE ROLE OF THE MAGISTERIUM IS TO PLAY THIS UMPIRE LIKE ROLE, JUDGE LIKE ROLE. AND THE MAGISTERIUM IS NOT A SOURCE OF DIVINE REVELATION, LIKE DIVINE SCRIPTURE. WHAT THE MAGISTERIUM DOES, LOOK AT PROPOSED SCRIPTURES AND SAY, THIS ONE IS GENUINE SCRIPTURE, THIS ONE IS NOT. AND ON AN ONGOING BASIS, SAYS, THIS IS A GENUINE TRADITION AND THIS ONE IS NOT. >> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, I GOT TO BE THE UMPIRE BECAUSE WE'RE OUT OF TIME. UNFORTUNATELY. SO, LET ME GIVE YOU AND EVERYBODY ELSE A BLESSING. ALMIGHTY GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU, IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AND ENCOURAGE YOU TO GET JIMMY'S BOOK, THE BIBLE IS A CATHOLIC BOOK BY JIMMY AKIN AVAILABLE AT ewtnRC.com. AND SUPPORT THIS NETWORK BY KEEPING US IN BETWEEN YOUR GAS BILL, ELECTRIC BILL AND CABLE BILL SO WE CAN PAY BILLS AND HAVE MORE SHOWS WITH JIMMY! THANK YOU. [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC]
