Evil Organizations & Thieves' Guilds in 5e Dungeons & Dragons

[Music] let me tell you something man these are gonna be Jim's won that one right that's the good stuff as far back as I can remember I always wanted to be in the Thieves Guild the thrill the stealing being able to get away with anything to me that would be even better than being king of kumys but back then we didn't know how until we found web dia and their episode on evil organizations so Jim Davis we might have DD players out there maybe they just want to start their own group their own cabal their own evil organization sure sure let's talk about how to do that this request came in from one of our patreon patrons and we're kind of like taking a look at evil organizations as an antagonist for your campaign we touched on this sort of briefly in Lich's Yeah right like a Lich might have a cabal of lesser mages who hoped to either achieve achieve leeched in themselves or or siphon off some of the power from the Lich yeah and the ways in which the Lich can kind of use those mortal minions in its in its plots and so like there's a reason why you would want to use an evil organization as opposed to just a single big bad evil guy right right a big big but we're not talking about the werewolf terrorizing a village or the the thief the lone thief it's sort of pilfering the houses of nobility that the players have to find that that's not really what we're talking about we're talking about structures and an organization and and really something that's gonna stick with your campaign for the long haul maybe not the entire thing but certainly for an extended arc as the players kind of work their way through the organization either in opposition or as allies and the dmg kind of touches on this very briefly in the fact that there are factions presented in the dmg and what it's like to sort of gain faction benefits of course a lot of that ties into adventurers league playing and the factions that are in Forgotten Realms but III think it's a good idea to kind of flip that and say well what about the organization's and the factions that are opposing the players right we're using evil in a very generic sense to sort of mean like their and they stand in opposition to the players they might not be capital e evil their antagonists well yeah but I mean the baseline assumption usually uh-huh in playing is that you're playing good characters for eating evil like that's just kind of it that's kind of the baseline the plea share or like fantasy is sort of built on that good versus evil right so what is our what is our evil as or organization where does it start you want to have something an idea like a goal or an overall sort of theme so looking at some of the examples from Forgotten Realms as our touchstone for this kind of thing the cult of the dragon obviously comes out as an evil organization of course the tyranny of dragons campaign featured the cult of the dragon heavily in sort of its newest incarnation and the cult of the dragon sort of as an example of this they are at one point we're dedicated to raising evil dragons as Draco Lich's based on this sort of obscure prophecy by their founder that eventually sort of morphs into just a generic cult of T amant sort of bring worship of dragon worship of evil dragons bringing her into the prime material in order to institute a draconic reign of terror whatever it is the evil extra planar entities want to do when they get to prime material plane or rain of fire or rain of fire troop they kind of rehabilitated the santarem but as I remember them they were the evil organization par excellence they are involved in smuggling in the slave trade and thievery and mercenary stuff well I think some of that maybe is still present they have been presented as sort of like this more underhanded criminal but not necessarily evil organization that players can belong to as well yeah but others include like the red wizards of thay or to be evil AF right right oh they're just like Walmart for magic that's just different kind of you oh uh whoa now whoa what we're talking about here is like there's an organization that that whose purposes and goals and and and drive stand in opposition to the player's goals the players priorities what the players believe in right and so when you're creating an evil organization that you're gonna use in your campaign as an antagonist you want to think about the the what are the goals of this organization why do they exist what is their purpose and that's gonna help dm's guide the reactions of the various members of this organization it's going to help DMS give an idea of what they what kind of plots you can come up with what kind of scenarios you can come up with and so taking an example of something like the red wizards of thay maybe they're seeking to extend their influence beyond their national borders trying to capture sites of magical significance beyond their borders in order to increase their magical power then that's gonna give you sort of an idea of what sort of plots are gonna be there what are they scheming what are they kept up with and then finding ways to insert that in opposition to what the players goals and priorities are yeah they start going around muscle and people out of their land right are they set up nearby and you know they're there series of villages nearby that that are worried about all of a sudden this influx of red wizards and their minions well what are they there for they're searching for a magical wellspring of some kind or seeking to drain the resources of myth torn or or something from from the forest you're right yeah something like that like starting with the goals as opposed is like specific plots and scenarios means that you you can be flexible and adaptable throughout the course of a campaign whereas if you say like well there their goal is just as one very specific thing as opposed to a generic overall direction that the organization is working towards you know if it's just like one rare very specific thing the organisation's working for then then that doesn't build in longevity for your campaign yeah what happened yeah when the PCs come in and worth that one thing right now you're done later on will kind of give some very specific examples of the organizations that we're talking about and things you can do with them but the that's sort of where I would start what are the organization's goals what are their goals so now how do you structure your organization for that what you were talking about that longevity so you might have a cellular structure to the organization where individual pockets of members set up shop maybe around a central figure or a leader or a group of more dedicated members who then recruit local people to sort of help them out in this this is good for sort of like undercover type stuff maybe you've got an organization that's dedicated to undermining a kingdom yeah or spying on a kingdom and they you know comprised of foreign agents who come in and set up shop there local contacts who feed them information muscle that they hire in order to protect them or or to use as they see fit but each individual cell is not connected to any other cell so that if one goes down you know the others can continue to operate and then it's kind of like the you know the party say defeats the local cell that they're in a pat themselves on the back maybe a few adventures go by before they're like oh wait there's another group in the area or another something and so it then it becomes not only routing out the individual cells but seeing at what point do those individual cells have a connection might be that there's one individual member of the organization seeding these cells throughout so that's kind of a decentralized way of doing it can also go the opposite direction and say there is a person or a group of people at the very top of this very hierarchical organization that they have you know underlings and lieutenants and those lieutenants have lieutenants and and so on and so forth under bosses and captain's right right consigliere sure and and and that each individual part of this overall structure has a purpose and a goal so you might have the the mercenary arm of the organization that provides it internal security internal muscle that kind of thing and the the spell-casting arm of the organization that provides spell-casting services to other members and it's a very hierarchical chain of command sort of structure in which case maybe they operate in secret maybe they operate in the open and then of course you can mix and match you know maybe the top levels of the organization are very structured and hierarchical but as you get towards the field agents then it becomes like a cell structure yeah gives you like a buffer it gives you kind of like a buffer you know throughout this I keep thinking of the the TV show of the Americans with like the undercover Soviet spies and Reagan America and it's sort of like that's that's sort of a similar way where these deep undercover agents recruiting local people but then they have their handler that they speak to it ultimately back to the Kremlin that's another way give some thought to how its structured what do you what do you want to accomplish and make sure that the way that you're structuring it it will lend itself towards making it easy to game with and create scenarios out exactly and and finally as you as you climb the mountain you got it you got to answer that age-old question it's been probably gay in America since the 80s you know angel or Tony who's that who's the boss boss right yeah I left there yes you did well I who is in charge of this organization this is where you just let your mind run wild maybe it's a monster that is ultimately in charge of the organization it's an intelligent monster that's created an organization of mortals and yes or human or you know the other humanoid sort of races that that's recruited it could be a lich or other sort of long-lived spellcaster of some kind of creating it maybe it's a triumvirate of something maybe you've got a you know a hags coven that that there this is their organization of spies and informants and and thieves and assassins that they've that they've been working with all through the years and the leader of the organization is going to lend it a certain character right yeah and whoever or whatever you choose to be the leader of an organization will then help you figure out okay you know who are the lieutenant's who'd be willing to work with this creature or this entity or this person okay who's willing to work with them and so as you move down the layers you might have people who don't understand what's at the top really the ground troops only know their next contact and in the middle you know the sort of like under bosses only know their next contact etc and then at the top you've got whatever it is a beholder that's orchestrating things they a circle of mind flayers that are sort of controlling the under bosses and then there's that layer of mind control and everything that goes into it the leader of this organization is your opportunity to color it and to give it some flavor and to inject it with some backstory and ultimately it's the enemy that you want your players to come to loathe and to respect and to fear and to want to see defeated so that the players didn't start driving the action forward okay we got to hit them here we got to do this now we did that we got to find this guy and then eventually it's like the cop show with all the pictures and the strings that are attaching each other boredom and depending on whether or not your leader of your organization is some kind of monster or if they're just a human or an elf you know they might be out in the public helping people I mean it's listen Fisk he's trying to help rebuild will Hell's Kitchen but his ultimate goal and that is perhaps a bit more obscure what to what end is he trying to rebuild helps kitchen who are the allies that he has I think that the two seasons of daredevil and then the season of defender are a good example of this and we'll try do not exactly give give away a bunch for our viewers who haven't seen it but watching these three seasons of TV you can kind of see how all right in the in the beginning their dough was way over here on the side and just it's a little thing that he notices and then following that lead leads into the first underboss yeah and then and then okay we're following that string pulling on that thread who's this person connected to now we get to the bigger picture okay I think I've defeated my main enemy no turns out they had a backer as well yep and allies and things and so eventually it grows and metastasizes and you're now you're fighting a globe spanning organization full of ninjas right and so I think that that's a good example of it other good examples are things like the wire and and the way that the the interplay between the forces of the criminals and the forces of law and and how they interplay with each other and just the the plotting that goes on any any kind of show or story or narrative that features an organization is gonna obviously be fodder for that and so crime dramas stories about mafia or crime criminal families yeah those are obviously rich fodder for you to steal and and use them as inspiration for your game okay yeah and so you know diems use that as inspiration as you see fit obviously right but sometimes your players might want to set up in their own organization whether it be evil or what maybe they're not playing true heroes right they're a little selfish and they hey they take out a local group of cut purses and they want to take over your your your players have lived long enough to see themselves become the villain exactly right so I think that in this case you know it could be that you know your your players start taking over parts of the organization that they've cut the heads off of and it's just kind of like well I took out your underboss you have two choices you can work for me or you can die yeah that that's kind of one way and and as your players sort of work up the chain of command and see how far the organization has either spread itself in all the little parts and and and nooks and crannies of your campaign yeah then they might see that like maybe going undercover it's a part of that and they will need to know about the organization it's ins and outs how to insert themselves into that maybe they want to set up a rival organization a group that's dedicated to combating their enemies and taking on their antagonists and so I would say in those cases you want to make sure that there are plenty of NPCs that are kind of on the fence right NPCs that the players can turn to their side the NPC's that the players can go to for information whether they're having to lean heavily on them the bad cop tactics or the good cop tactics another way NPCs that through clever role-playing and good die roles that the party can turn to their advantage and then start building up a rival organization or inserting themselves in undercover those are the kinds of things that that you can do if you have a large group that's opposing the players it might take the person at the top a long time to figure out what's going on down here in this tiny corner of the organization right right and maybe by then the players have eaten away enough at it and inserted themselves enough to really cause some damage well yeah I mean you know kind of kind of going back to daredevil you know it takes a while first season to kind of figure out what's going on because it's just like it's one guys taking all that one group of people is take it taking out our trade in people and right you know they've taken out our drug our drug trade right what the hell's going on we need to figure this out right and and so you know the players can kind of kind of keep themselves shielded a little bit because of like you know especially if they're doing like at a cellular nature if you're only taking out individual cells all all the the next tier into the next the lieutenant's are like well I haven't met with them in a few times go check them out yeah we have a check our dead drops anything from them again or we haven't gotten the sending spell from them in a while right part of the reason why you use an evil organization as opposed to a single big bad evil guy as your antagonist is that you want the players to spend time getting to know this evil organization understanding the backstory you've created for it and using that backstory in conjunction with their actions to create these connections you it gives you an opportunity to create villains and antagonists and people who oppose your characters that have longevity they've got the resources to say come back from the dead right the players thought they've dealt with a person but they didn't secure the body and the organization brings them and either reza's them or or provides something maybe they come back as Undead maybe they come back to us from a raise dead spell or something they always reincarnate so when they come back it's like a different yeah so you get a facelift absolutely yeah that's another one they reincarnate to make sure that that the party's not kind of on to them they always think they're fighting someone different it's really just the same person you know start out small the first couple of adventures are whittling away at the henchmen of the under bosses under boss they're dealing with a little piece of it in the trade in illegal health potions or something like that and then it grows out of their sweatshop labor for halflings they fight the first boss around third or fourth level by the time they're in the second tier there they're stuck in and they're they've started to develop their map and they're they've got the string that's connecting the individual pieces yeah and then you get up to you know epic tier play tier four and the players are wielding their own power and influence against this one fighting for control of the city the Kingdom the plain who knows what it is because this is Dungeons & Dragons you want to inject a fantastical into this yeah you want there to be monsters and magic and plane hopping and and all these kinds of things in conjunction with the organization that kind of creates it although it is fun I mean I don't being an evil like a distinct evil organization though like to take place in just like a city yeah then everybody gets to be talking about how my city needs me your city needs their doing this to my city right you know like it's a way to to real your players in I mean I'm not saying you have to do nothing you have to but it's a good it's a good stone for it and I like the idea of a crossover between like superheroes and Dungeons and Dragons and there's a there's a certain type of campaign that's between tier 1 tier 2 that's very much like a vigilante superhero type style of campaign except instead of capes and tights it's chain mail and rapiers and things like that yeah yeah I mean we're kind of doing that in the saver dice game we're not taking on a distinct organization no but you are very much that neighborhoods vigilantes yeah there is no there's no law there is no order there's no city guard to come and and and help you out it's individual members of the community taking it upon themselves to solve these problems so for some examples I'm thinking of the classic one is the Thieves Guild yeah right there might be competing Thieves Guild you can play against each other it might be like sort of a five family situation where the heads of the Thieves Guild sit down periodically to discuss the various areas that they they do this one's into the magical drugs this one's into this Thieves guilds into you know human and Dimmie human trafficking you know there's the illegal magic yeah these two families are airing grievances against each other right trying to keep the truce trying to keep the truce and then the players are thrown in the mix and sort of the calamity and chaos and adventure ensues other examples include like mercenary companies obviously each one of these organizations is gonna lend a certain character to the campaign the Thieves Guild game of intrigue and backstabbing and then skullduggery is different than a more military-style campaign against like say an evil army or an evil mercenary company that's opposed to you you know the advantage of a mercenary company as your evil antagonist is that it lends itself well lots of big set-piece battles lots of big fights and having to deal with like logistics and out maneuvering your enemy and those kinds of things but other things include like a wizard's cabal you know a group of wizards that have conspired to and i use wizard in a generic sense here a group of spell casters that are conspiring to take seize control or power for them from the legitimate rulers a dragon cult not necessarily like cult of the Dragon yeah like a dragon who cultivates a cult of personality and and harnesses people gonna brings them in maybe starts creating half dragons or dragon born or something the dragon cult you know that they they live in a mountain somewhere they live in the deep forest and and the players are sort of chipping away at it why is the dragon trying to do what it's doing well the dragons a big thing and when it flies and attacks it causes a stir but it's little minions working at the edges of society manipulating events gaining influence and power inserting themselves in are gonna be a more subtle way and maybe it's too late before everyone realizes that a dragon is controlling things yeah and it's seize control obviously we mentioned Lynch Lich's and other sorts of monsters might have mortal allies that they create an organization around but others include things like assassins Brotherhood you know brotherhood of assassins or you know a noble house or a merchant you know merchant family or something like that that's trying to seize control of the economy or something or just I mean you know sometimes you want to start with just a protection racket right if a group of strong arms to come in and go hey you know what we can protect you from those others or you know and this is why I like the Thieves Guild is kind of the the the really the kind of the central focus of it because there's so much you can draw from from crime drama and and and mafia movies basically protection rackets gambling smuggling trade and illegal substances the use of black magic or illegal magic for things and why wouldn't the Thieves Guild be a part of that I think those are some examples of what your what you can kind of get up to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles the foot I mean like having having an organization of ninjas in your campaign that do things that ninjas do they sneak about they are jumping from rooftop to rooftop and and giving your players opportunities to fight like a horde of ninjas as they fight them off whether they're like drow or other sorts of sneaky ninja type yeah but things but the levels where you bring kids in that just steal soil if you're bringing the kids in I don't have what they want come on have some come on hang out warehouse where we got everything for you have any smokes you want regular or menthol we got a skatepark and video games and yeah uh-huh I can certainly see that there's there should be benefits for joining these and then the other thing is like if depending on what kind of players you've got you might have you might have players who are one who who are on the fence about like well I might join this group here yeah legitimately because something that they offer is appealing to my character or meet to me as a player yeah and then you create a nice situation for intra-party conflict whether you're into that or not or or the chance for the players to go yeah we're gonna bring this thing down from the inside yeah and it's not necessarily undercover to destroy it but we're gonna take this thing over and soar like a Goodfellas kind of like we're gonna be made men and that's the kind of game that you're running so we could easily do like a whole hour on this show and this this seems like a good topic for a podcast right so if if any of our viewers out there curious about more you know our podcasts are a lot longer and we go a bit more in depth this sounds like one of those we could talk a lot more about but it's almost time I could talk all day man this is got it in some way so where does it end it ends with the with you to the organization you know disintegrating or collapsing or something or or the goals of that evil organization being thwarted so returning back to the very beginning tyranny of dragons from levels 1 through 15 the players are fighting the cult of the Dragon whether it's the actual dragons themselves whether whether it's their allies and the red wizards or cult members themselves but the ultimate goal is to stop Tia Mott from from making her way into the prime Material Plane yeah but the cult of the dragon doesn't disappear after that they've been dealt a serious blow they it might take them years to recover but unless the players have literally killed or eliminated everyone in the cult someone will will come back yeah and everywhere I'm speaking right everywhere purple and so this is it's one of those things where you use an organization because you want some longevity and some resilience to your bad guys and a lone bad guy is very vulnerable to a party and they can easily get the jump on them and attack them and take them out whereas a bad guy that has an organization behind them has the resources to recover from a severe defeat the players and now you've got a recurring into me that they can grow to hate and loathe and then if you're really lucky and you've played your cards right and the campaign's gone well maybe they turn around and they have to seek out that it former enemy to fight an even bigger threat yeah something like that I love it when can I join anytime [Music] oh my god Oh curse you Jim I still want to get one of these in the connect drawer to get a chick-fil-a and then just take the chicken of this out and insert the chick-fil-a chicken in

Channel: Web DM

Views: 212,734

Keywords: Dungeons, Dragons, Role, Playing, Tabletop, Game, 5th, Edition, 5e, Web, DM, WebDM, D&D, DND, thieves guild, dungeons and dragons, how to play, how to play d&d, players handbook, dungeon master, web dm

Id: TcVkhYZqQA0

Length: 25min 20sec (1520 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 18 2017