Evaluating a Used Saxophone For Purchase

hi my name is Matt store and I repair saxophones for living and this video is sponsored by you guys thanks to your contribution to the open-source saxophone project today I'd like to talk to you about what to look for what to evaluate when you just purchase a saxophone now I primarily deal with vintage and collectible professional saxophones so most of the information presented here is going to be aimed towards that but this will also help you with the purchase of any saxophone and it might also help you if you just had your saxophone overhaul now between the video you're about to watch and the complimentary articles and videos that I've got linked below in the description you can easily spend several hours learning about this stuff obviously much more but it is going to be time very well spent and it will pay you back big time as a matter of fact this video I'm making right now is probably going to save the most money overall all have any video I've ever made probably all of them put together so set aside some time get your horn out and follow along and let's improve your relationship with the saxophone now first things first if you're purchasing the saxophone at a distance say from an online dealer such as myself although I'm a small fry in that world there are three things that I think the dealer must have one is an impeccable or nearly impeccable reputation now obviously there's cranks in the world I've dealt with a few I had a woman call me up asking for help with her website when I explained that I was a saxophone repairman she got irate and tried to give me a bad review on Yelp so one negative review is not necessarily the end of the world but if you notice a trend and reviews about an online dealer I'd stay away to a clearly-defined return policy and there needs to be one now in my book it is okay to expect the customer to pay for shipping both ways even other wise people such as myself would end up doing what basically amounts to a free professional saxophone rental 3 there should be excellent clear and numerous photos of the saxophone in question and there should be a clear and complete description of the saxophone you're thinking of buying now at this point it's probably becoming clearer and it will become clearer over the course of video but I should I should just say outright that I am not a fan of the layperson purchasing a saxophone from a non professional seller even for someone like myself eBay Craigslist so forth can be a real minefield and I've lost my shirt more than once in the past even with all that I know buying from a dealer carries a premium of course but assuming that the dealer is a honest and good business person there's a reason for this premium they've absorbed all those minefield hits on the front end they are describing the instrument with a large amount of knowledge they've acquired over time they've got a return policy and basically you can count count on that you're going to get what you pay for so of course buying person-to-person eBay and so forth you can get lucky but I've been in the position of informing people that they've gotten a bad deal much more often than they've gotten a good deal so let's dive in once you get the instrument you should take photos as you unbox it in case there's damage but there shouldn't be because packing a saxophone well enough to ship it as saxophone sales 101 these days inspect the packaging closely before opening it when you do open it it should have come packed inside its case very securely with padding added inside the case wherever necessary so that nothing can move around inside the case then it should be boxed inside a sturdy box with a couple inches of clearance and packed tightly inside that box when a well packed saxophone box is picked up you can shake the box and nothing moves it feels like one solid object a poorly packed saxophone is simply negligence and she'll give you pause even if the horn didn't suffer any damage as a result assuming all is well you should play the horn and if possible if at all possible take it for inspection to your local repair or to more than one local repair if you can then trust your gut it should look right if you find yourself making excuses just remember whenever there's any doubt there's no doubt so down to the inspection of the saxophone itself you just begin with the overall condition does it match the description is the finish truly original if it was stated as such are their past repairs or damage that was not described perhaps in the one area that wasn't shown in photos are all parts present an original look closely if anything you're in your inspection reveals the difference between the description and reality that means either the seller didn't know which means you're dealing with someone who doesn't know a ton about saxophones which is meaningful or the seller neglected to pass on information they did have at their disposal which is also meaningful now the first thing I typically look at is the finish what does the finish look like is it truly original and was it stated to be so of course being able to discern what is truly original and what is not is difficult and will be the subject of a video of its own later on but when in doubt get several opinions and obviously a refinish at some point in the past does not necessarily mean that the horn isn't a good one it just needs to be known and priced accordingly is it clean are there signs of corrosion how worn is it and where is it worn is it worn in a way that suggests damage maybe a lacquer 'la spot somewhere where something was Reese honored or is it from honest use like scratches on the back of the body tube from where it rested against someone's leg or maybe some lacquer ware from where it rested in the case or where on the touch pieces honest wear is not a bad thing especially when combined with the horn that's an otherwise good physical condition it means the horn got played but was well taken care of which is an indicator that someone loved it in the past which and this might just be an emotional decision on my part but I feel like it's a good thing speaking of where it's a good thing to inspect the pearls how worn are they the front F if it's a probe key usually provides a good reference point if you're unsure what shape the Pearl should be as it's a key that's touched much less than the others heavily worn pearls or replaced pearls can mean either someone with particularly corrosive personal chemistry played it in the past which could be problematic or not or it means it really got played a lot which then means the keyword got worn which could have been fixed by a good mechanical overall or it could mean you've got a can of worms on your hands now we'll check out the key work to all the keys move freely you can move them slowly throughout their range of motion to detect any binding that might be indicative of damage how about lost notion in the adjustments for instance if you slowly depress the f2 that sharp move at exactly the same time without any delay does the e key do the same thing what about the D check the upper sock to the same thing to B you should move the B and C sharp key at exactly the same time and the AE should move the best a and C sharp heat all exactly the same time in the octave mechanism between the neck octave key and the body octave key a little bit of lost motion is necessary it actually helps you to so that you can play it with the neck and different positions and have it still work but if you've got lost motion in the stacks that can be indicative of a shortcoming or a problem with the overhaul now are the keys noisy this sounds pretty good I don't hear any metal the metal contact if the keys are noisy that's a problem although it could be as simple as a piece of adjustment material that's too thin or too hard or it could be an indicator a major major mechanical we're next look for mechanical play in the key work do this by grabbing a key and wiggling it back and forth while the keys tight do they move in any way except the way they're supposed to be in plain poison factory they're typically not perfect but they should be close coming off a full mechanical overhaul by someone who knows what they're doing they should be perfect keys and these stacks are pretty much perfect I did these a while ago we're on the same horn this key I know it has play not too hard to detect right and you really don't need to put too much pressure there I'll show you some more play in a mark six that came like this in the factory and really it's kind of pushing it if I grab this key here and just wiggle it a little bit whoa look at all that so this key is not even tight around the rod because it's wobbling back and forth it's not tight between the key adjacent keys and you can see everything moving actually because the rod isn't even tight inside the post now this is a really nice condition prime serial number of mark six alto and it came like this in the factory the sword hasn't really been played and you can look at those pearls and see there's just not any where there that horn still plays pretty well but like I said that's really pushing it now if you want to understand why playing the mechanism is important please check out my video about mechanical fit and the G sharp is adjustment link below in the description more than a minimal amount of play mechanism would be a pretty sure indicator that you've likely got over a thousand dollars of mechanical rebuild ahead of you to get the horn plane like it Ken and if you're curious why this can cost so much see how involved fixing just one side of a pivot key can be by watching the video linked in the description below called advanced talks of own repair topic pivot receiver bushing and post washer you can also check for signs of previous mechanical work let's see if we can find any on this one I see it do you that's a swedge mark see how that key is slightly burnished there there's a little bit of a taper at the end swedging marks which are from pliers are kalus used to sweep squeeze the hinge tube down around the rod to tighten the fit and lengthen the hinge to between posts are nearly unavoidable since the act of mechanically refitting the key involves a large amount of force indeed enough to squeeze the metal of the hinge tube and whether or not your horn sports these distinctive marks and what severity can tell you about how badly worn it was in the past and how well the mechanical work was done you can also see in the link below a link below in the description for an article on my website called understanding key fitting that shows some up-close details of mechanical rebuild work it's typically hidden once the horn is assembled just for reference this is what really awful switch marks look like this person didn't know what they were doing they really damaged the key here and also they only sweated on one side that's not really going to keep anything tight that's not going to provide enough support this key still going to rock and they ruined it how about the pads and adjust materials if you're expecting the horn to arrive playing do they give you a nice pop like showing the pop test video linked in the description below the pads look clean and well done homogeneous a lack of uniformity can be a mark of sloppy repairs or layers of past repairs of different ages the pads look good same color do they all stick out the same amount from pad cups does the work look clean out of the pad seats look it should be even all around and not too deep these are extremely shallow this is my personal horn that I did a long time ago back when I use a different type of pad that's very firm if the horn came with pad clamps leave them off for a while to see if they were hiding any problems by squeezing the pads to overcome leaks how does everything feel under the fingers spongy gummy or soft are indicative of an underlying problem even if the horn plays well it means that other pads aren't sealing as well as they should be or that adjust materials are not done right or that materials choice was poor or the quality materials is poor all the above watch out for extremely stiff spring tensions which will cause you to squeeze past leaks you might otherwise notice like look here I've got a leak in my best a part of this is due because the pad is not actually sealing very well with minimal pressure that's where it sits if I add any pressure at all it closes part of it is also because this piece of adjust material underneath this pearl here has compressed if I had really strong spring tensions I'd probably squeeze through that stiff spring tensions can hide poor pad and adjustment work and this is especially common in new saxophones where they're counting on you to squeeze your way past poor pad seal and how do the springs feel they should be snappy not too light not too stiff and even throughout moving Keys throughout the range of motion the resistance should stay the same and not increase noticeably as you close the key if the resistance of a spring changes throughout the motion of a key that means that either the spring design is poor usually too short of spring or the springing work was not done well or both inspect the springs themselves Springs don't need to be shiny or beautiful to work well and they can last a very long time but it shouldn't be rusty they also shouldn't have sharp Kingston them but instead the springing bends should be even and nicely curved again check for uniformity non-uniform Springs aren't necessarily a bad thing but it does mean that at some point someone worked on the horn who didn't have the right materials or didn't care enough to make the new Springs match and taken together with other clues this might be meaningful now what about key Heights do they look reasonable are they ridiculously high or ridiculously low how does the upper stack look compared to the lower stack are they comparable key Heights have a lot to do with response and intonation and while some horn to some setups and some players are fairly forgiving correct key Heights which while slightly variable are usually within a narrow range are needed for the horn to play like it should what about tone holes are they uniform and even do any of them look a lot higher or lower than the surrounding ones can you see any damage what about file marks if you can see file marks that's a bad sign total leveling is not something to be undertaken lightly but unfortunately it seems to be something that is done indiscriminately and with improper tooling much too often and when it is done well with proper tools there should not be any visible file marks left also you should check for a body Bend this is actually much more common than you'd think and most people have a body Bend don't notice it unless it's severe usually it's going this way usually it centers right here if you want to find out if you've got a body Bend site down the bore not the outside where the keys will distract and fool your eye but look down the bore and tilt it back and forth to see if any of the walls curve away from you again not a deal-breaker since it's so common and often difficult to repair perfectly once bent but if it was supposed to have just been overhauled and it still has a sizable body bend it either got damaged in transit or it was overlooked when you look inside the body look for stripes or spots of burnished metal like we're seeing here at the bottom bow of the saxophone these are marks from dent removal tools this is totally fine to see assuming you knew that there were dents removed in the past but it could be informative to inspect if you see an awful lot of these marks this means the horn has really been worked over at some point of course the body should be circular in cross section you can also look down the board to see small dents that might be easy to miss from the outside especially those that are hidden under post if a post has been knocked into the body this is a problem that needs fixed you should inspect the neck very carefully now I've got this neck disassembled and I don't expect you to do that but it's got a couple of things I wanted to point out so I'm using this as an example you can look for those internal dent work mark just like we looked inside the saxophone when you inspect the neck the main thing though that I look for is whether it was pulled down in the past which is a fairly common type of damage to see it can be repaired well as in the case of this one and not be a big deal or if it was a severe pull down or if it was repaired poorly that should devalue the instrument quite a bit as the neck is no longer the original internal dimensions thing you want to look for is symmetrical wear lines on either side of the neck on this side is pretty light that's an example where it's just the lacquer crackling from the stress of it being bent but the lacquer is still intact on the other side of this neck for whatever reason the lacquer was worn off after a crackled that's a pretty good sign that necks been pulled down the past of course though that can be tricky because this neck has never been pulled down but just from normal handling the lacquer on both sides of the neck has been completely worn off but there is a bit of a difference in the pattern maybe you can see that I can good thing to do if you can is check the neck angle against an undamaged reference if at all possible and look closely to make sure the cross section is indeed a circle and that's not all down now let's check the neck tenon connection where the tenon itself look like also check out the receiver is it scarred up dirty is it ridged or does it have deep scratches it should be smooth and haven't even finished like this one although it doesn't need to be shiny like this one this one just recently got fit so the brass is still shiny but yours could be a much duller color as long as it's still even what about the fit it should be precise and smooth not too tight definitely not too loose it shouldn't rock once installed and going from being able to move it to tightening that screw so it can't move shouldn't be more than quarter turn if you have to turn this screw a lot to get it tightened down that's probably indicative of a problem now neck fit is extremely important and more often than not this joy is actually leaking like if we look at this here this is a con neck tenon and conduct then it's typically a problem it's out of round and you see that green stuff inside that's corrosion that built up because there was space between the tenon and the tenon receiver if there wasn't space that green stuff couldn't build up all that green stuff those are huge air leaks I'm becoming convinced that the neck fit in particular is one of them and also you'll notice this is pretty tight right so you can't tell the different you can't tell if you've got a leak just by how it feels you have to get it checked out and either you or your repair is going to need the appropriate neck isolator leak testing tool get this checked out I'm becoming convinced that next fit in particular is one of the most important aspects of the physical condition of the saxophone and the difference between a well fit leak free neck and a mediocre fit even if it's leak free 10 in connection is the difference between an average horn and one that really really sings of course it's not a deal-breaker if you have a leaky neck tenon as they often come this way even from the factory but you'll be amazed at what a difference a good neck fit makes however it is a difficult and precise procedure that not every repair is asked to do too often and getting it done well is the only way to go for since I have about $1,700 in neck fitting tools and I feel like I don't even have enough and of course play the thing it doesn't matter if its pristine if you don't like it and it doesn't matter if the horn needs a lot of work if you're in love with it but the more you know the better this is a lot of what I look for when I'm evaluating a saxophone and I hope you found it helpful useful and informative please feel free to ask any questions in the comments below or you can email me or even call me thanks for watching

Channel: Stohrer Music

Views: 105,158

Rating: 4.8828969 out of 5

Keywords: saxophone, repair, matt, stohrer, purchase, buy, sax, used, overhaul, dents

Id: TdvytvuiZyg

Length: 20min 41sec (1241 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 02 2016

Reddit Comments

[u/Nichijo]

Thanks again, Matt. Your videos are so informative and clearly presented.

One thing wasn't too clear to me, however.. Are you saying that increasing spring tension can hide a leaking pad? I'm considering doing some spring bending on my TT to get it to feel more to my liking. Is it common to bend springs as part of the process of regulating a horn to the player's preferences?