Engineering Manager Interviews Inside Look by Yannis Minadakis | IK UpLevel MicroClass

[Music] so let's get going without further ado yani welcome again thank you again for for taking time and doing doing this with us let's start with um a brief intro for yourself like your career like how have you seen it shaping up from an ic through manager and and and so this the way that you that you have had to write so i started my career uh as an intern uh while going to college back in like 1996 in boston and i was an ic for most of my career i ended up growing by uh eventually moving from boston to seattle to work microsoft and then eventually down to the valley taking a few stops in between one of my uh most interesting uh interview stories uh is is from early in my career when i was interviewing at microsoft and i graduated boston university and uh my focus was computer graphics and there was a bunch of computer graphics people that happened to have gone to microsoft some people from before me my class and my current class and i was super excited to go to microsoft so i had my demo all set up it was like a 3d stereoscopic you put on the 3d glasses and you could see the spline move and so i fly out there and i'm very excited and i interview with microsoft money and incarta and i go through the interview i'm excited i go home and remember this is uh circa what 98 99 uh and i go home and back then they didn't send you emails they didn't call you they sent you letters so i get a letter from microsoft and the letter says thank you for coming in i'm sorry this isn't a fit and it was a i felt terrible i'm like come on what what did i do wrong i'm just not good i'm i i must not be good enough for big tech companies um at the time i was working for teradyne which was a semiconductor test company and as a software engineer and i'm like well i guess i'm just not good uh then three years later fast forward and 2003 and there's layoffs and i get laid off and i go back to try to interview them at microsoft and i get in and later on i find the person who had interviewed and i spoke to them about it and i said hey you know i'm here oh yeah welcome like i'm curious you know what happened because i mean they want me now and they didn't want me then he's like oh yeah that that hiring manager he didn't really want any more bu graphics people because they kept leading the team you know they didn't want to work on carta like shocker so the takeaway from this was like for three years i held this like thing in my mind that i just wasn't good enough for microsoft or you know whatever and then it turns out the guy just didn't like uh bu programmers in graphics because they got bored of working on a card and wanted to move somewhere else in microsoft so anyway it was a life lesson there fast forward i i moved into management when i moved down to the valley i did a startup for a bit where i was in ic and then i moved back to microsoft working on iptv stuff and i started managing then and i grew through it through a couple different companies afterward microsoft to bloomberg where i i brought up the office and then to apple and now at google fascinating so you're you're at google right now and you're leading uh a few teams uh for for the in the germany office i'm not just germany so i am the the graphics lead for stadia and stadia there's multi offices right there's an office of waterloo and office of mountain view and in here but germany is a growth site for google in general and state in particular so uh this is why i'm here got it perfect perfect thank you annie very well let's uh let's start with sort of the the heart of the question which i think everybody everybody or at least half the audience here seems to have um how do i prepare for an engineering management interview and as part of that let's discuss l6l7 the difference between the two and such and and what are the areas that one needs to prepare for right when when being considered for engineering management i'm sure you have interviewed a number of companies you work at google right now but in your journey you've interviewed a number of companies as managed manager and you've and you've received several offers and said so you generally understand the landscape of of management interviews at tier one places um so if you could if you could tell us a little bit about how to prepare for it what are they looking for what does roughly the process look like the difference between a manager and a senior manager that would be awesome it would be a great starting point okay um so i guess the first thing i want to say is a lot of what i'm going to tell you isn't secret a lot of this information you can get by talking to the recruiter asking them how the process works asking them what type of questions people ask on the loop asking who's going to be on the loop so you know approximately how to uh at what level to answer questions um and i encourage everybody to do that what i'll say is for the top tier companies i would separate them into two categories there's the 1.0 style tech companies that like are ebay and and microsoft and apple and they have a slightly different process than the let's say 2.0 facebook google and they're offshoots like uber and lyft and so generally for uh for the first set of companies they recruit for a certain role this is the same for ic and as manager so you're very likely to be going in for a very specific team that you're going to manage versus facebook and google style where you get interviewed by a committee the committee makes the decision on whether to hire you and then they do team fit where you can select which team to join now even in those uh facebook google style companies you can be pre-fit in other words you can you can have a particular team in a particular opportunity but in general the loop is generic right it's not focused on managing that particular team uh the the layout is usually one coding question uh two system design questions and and by system design it could mean actual back end system layout but it could also be product system design so what's important in this ui how how would you display the information for this application so a little bit of product design to see if you have product sense to see if when you're sitting in a conversation as an engineering manager or leader you can meaningfully contribute when product is asking for things and make trade-offs the remaining two interviews are probably the most important and they're the behavioral ones so this is where they give you either the what ifs you know what what if you have an underperforming employee what if you uh you're behind schedule on your project or they ask for a particular situation so tell me about a time when you had a conflict with a peer these kind of questions and and they're the ones that i think you should focus on the most because they are the biggest contributor to to the hiring decision the other the technical parts are important especially for for the top tier companies mostly from a credibility perspective they want you to join and be able to have credibility uh with senior ics on the team and other managers so there's a baseline expectation but the reality is that like the coding question is really not uh the expectation is not at the level of an equivalently leveled ic so if you're interviewing with an l6 ic the level of coding and system design that's expected is higher than interviewing as an l6 manager messy makes sense so so to summarize one coding question uh where the expectation is not as much as like an l6 ic it could be like l5 l4 ic but like not not as much uh in that that's one um second is uh a design question system design or product design that that area needs to be prepared for and the third is your their own stories about how they have led in the past and what are the management philosophies and what are some of the decision making uh uh what decision making that they've done in the past and and such like so so these uh these three seem to be the broad areas of preparation for an engineering management correct yep awesome deep um and and is there a difference between like l6 and l7 like a manager versus senior manager evaluation an interview process add a tier one yes so generally there's a role delta so l6 is generally a manager of ics and l7 is generally a manager of managers so the the scope of influence for an l6 is generally anywhere between let's say four to 12 15 people and for an l7 the expectation is a team size of 30 to 50. right now of course that doesn't mean you necessarily start that way you might join as an l7 in a growing org one where they anticipate more growth and you might start off with just directly managing ics but the the type of skill they're looking for is somebody who has managed managers as an lsat um yeah i see um so i think that's a that's a very interesting and that's a nice dovetail into a very frequently asked question here and even before like if i don't have management experience right can i go for a managed managerial role and let's uh let's start with like a tier one place a good solid tier one place can one apply for l6 l7 or manage a senior manager role if they have not had direct management experience now they may have they may have been a technical leader before influence the technical design of the of the product they may have guided junior people in the technical careers and such but but like they've never had a formal managerial role right once you when you're looking at or the recruiters are looking at resumes or you're looking at as you measure you are interviewing someone for that like would you how would you consider that is it a is it a no from the get go is it like what are the chances of it just just trying to wrap my head around it so the shortest answer would be no that that it is very unlikely and the logic is the same logic you get even as an ic which is companies are generally willing to be flexible on things like compensation or things like working from home one day a week because you just had a kid or you know these kind of logistical issues things that are generally easy for them and usually they're flexible on this because they want to de-risk the thing they care about which is the product they're building so if you are a see even uh a strong ic but perhaps they want somebody who specializes in networking in a particular role they are going to be less flexible than somebody who's maybe specializes in networking but is asking for something special or is is maybe not uh as many years experience right uh so even for ics you get this phenomenon where companies uh want to be really careful that they get the person that they're looking for in terms of fit and they're usually flexible on these other dimensions it's the same with management it's strange to walk in and say you're going to interview for a team of let's say 10 people and you've never managed people what you can do though in these larger tech companies is you can pick a ladder that has a potential for management so what do i mean by ladders at google they have this terminology for career ladders and i think all companies have this apple has this facebook has is they might use different names but the idea is there's a track and there's one track that's an ic track so you're in l4 ic and l5ic and l6 ic and then there's a manager track usually it starts at l5 so there's like a junior manager manager senior manager and the thing is there's some overlap in these tracks so a manager track is expected that you're primarily managing people and you're less focused on technical areas at google and the expectation is you have senior ics so as you as let's say an l7 manager have an l6 ic or multiple l6 ics who are focused on the technical verticals so while you need to be proficient and need to have credibility with them and need to understand what you're doing you're not expected necessarily to dive into any one of those areas as a person who's on the ic track just because you're on the ic track doesn't mean you can't manage people it just means that that is not necessarily your primary responsibility and as you go up the ic track you're expected to lead technically and in some deep areas you're also expected to people manage so while you can be for example an l7 or l8 ic at google what you frequently find is somebody who's l6 l7l8 at google who's on the ic ladder also has some reports but they won't have anywhere near as many reports as somebody who's on the manager ladder so an l7 manager like i said is maybe somewhere 30 to 50 people an l7ic might have five people as part of trying to execute on a particular technical area so one one path to management is to find a role as let's say an l6 i see in a place like facebook or google where there is opportunity to technically lead and then take on some reports as well so you won't get it going in necessarily if you haven't managed but that is allowed for that track so once you're in and you have a track record with the team if the team is growing there's potential for you to start managing [Music] um interesting um okay very well uh the and and yani why even become a manager i think there is there is this thing about is this this this this thing that i see in many students that i want to become a manager so that i don't have code right so that i don't have to be technical like it's it is sometimes seen subconsciously or consciously seen as an escape route from being an ic and then and getting to these challenging interviews right would you say that the l6 l7 interviews uh especially l6 are any easier than an ic interview at tier one places or not necessarily um i would say it's not that they're easier the questions are similar there there is no separate bank of like technical questions for an l6 em versus an l6 ic if your role in the interview process is let's say a coded question the difference would be that when the committees look at the feedback because the latter requires more of the behavioral and leadership aspects they might uh emphasize less the results of the coding interview so you could imagine a case this is not formulaic but an example might be somebody who's very strong behavioral and very strong in general system design but maybe is a bit weak on coding maybe they have encoded in five years or whatever and they could get some pseudo code on there they understood they had to loop over an array and do something but they weren't really able to generate uh correct code in their language of choice uh the committee might look at that and say ah you know we're bringing this person in to manage 30 people maybe that's okay they clearly have the the level of system design and product instinct that we're looking for in this type of role so nominally it's easier but only because other parts are harder so if you're good at that if you're good at these other parts and you can score well in these other dimensions then by all means uh go for that kind of role but it's not that managing is easy and i'm being i see is hard it's like being a star basketball player is different than being a star football player but if you're like oh i'm sick of playing football maybe i'll go give this basketball thing a try it's it's not necessarily uh going to map as uh the same skill set the same things that made you successful as an ic won't necessarily map to this other ladder and this other work that you need to do all right make sense um and folks again those who joined late my name is soham and we are talk and one of the founders of innova kickstart um we have jani with us yanni is the senior manager at google senior engineering manager at google uh he's also been with another kickstart for quite some time now we are talking about engineering management interviews right um as you guys know we run courses to prepare for technical interviews we run courses to prepare for l3 through l7 sometimes directorial roles as well l8 as well but we are very good at good at preparing for interviews on the technical side as well as behavioral side coding system design algorithms soft skills all that um i came from box as some of you might know it was one of the fastest growing sas companies in in the valley for a long time and i happen to be there as director of engineering and innovative kickstart has been around for about six years now uh i started it after after after left box the um and and jani's answers uh to me seemed very spot on as well this is exactly my experience too at box also exactly the same thing we would not interview people without management experience as well the uh and um and and there is this other myth as well uh folks where sometimes people feel like engineering managers are paid way more than i sees but yeah that's not the case yeah that necessarily generally yeah generally the although compensation differs in in any particular ladder it also differs by job title so you know in these large companies there's lots of different career paths and lots of different titles so for example an in-demand skill set like nl you might have an an l5 ml person whose median comp is significantly higher than an l5 web developer even though notionally the rubric used to hire and the rubric used to judge talent is the same so yes it it it can differ and but i think the biggest area of difference is simply a a mismatch of supply and demand right you companies triple these top companies want technical managers they want managers who are technical enough to do well on these coding and system design interviews again not as not as well as they would expect a comparable ic but they want enough of that and they also want the managerial and behavioral and it's a hard combination to find so what i would say you know if there is a median comp delta it is usually because they are harder roles to fill which gives more negotiating power to the person filling them but it's not necessarily because structurally they're designed to have a higher uh median comp make sense i'm and i have had more than one instances in my past life as well where i have paid more to people reporting into me for example um and they were i see that i was so to speak a manager senior manager director what not i mean like janie said it's just really the supply and demand certainly um the the other thing which which many people ask is how many years of experience is required really to apply to these places um like is there like a magic magical one year two years three years and then let me now try and apply to this or or not really i would say there's no magical number but there is an expectation of i would say at least a couple years it's hard to crank claim a credential when you've been a manager let's say for three months to say well you know this place may be a manager for three months you should make me a manager again it kind of goes back to the idea is they want to de-risk the role they're filling so the things that that are risky is putting a person in charge a person to be a leader who is not a very good leader and the risk of that is high if somebody's been there only three months versus the alternative where you're in a competitive situation and the thing that will get this person who has scored well on these leadership is a few more rsus or working remote or you know whatever the whatever the delta is you're much more likely to give the ladder than you are to take a risk on the former fascinating um my my anecdotal experience as well um we were looking for managers in in in box and and incidentally we would only interview actually only senior managers from outside um and that was simply because what what january said that we wanted to de-risk a role like we we clearly understood that a wrong manager is like 10 times worse than a wrong ic getting hired in a company so and we had made manageable mistakes before um and so we are very very careful it was a smaller setup certainly not as big as as google's but smaller setup but still a really high bar and so we would completely risk that position we would offer a managerial load to someone who has held senior manager roles only before and we'll still match the comp but the title would be lower so so so in terms of experience like some experience is required completely with you on that uh the the other other frequently asked question and is that what if i've been at tpm technical program manager sometimes product manager usually program management like can i just move to em the roles like i've been tpm at a tier two company so to speak outside and now i want to apply to l6 uh rl7 at google facebook and apple amazon like some of these places so is that is that a viable pathway or it's like yeah yeah i mean this is one of those things that is hard it's a hard truth in valley and especially in these matrix organizations which is tpm is generally not that strong of a discipline like they generally don't have that much control and so they tend not to be decision makers so pm product management the people who are deciding what we're going to build they can have a significant amount of influence the engineering org can have a significant amount of influence and tpm's do important work and they do good work and they do even senior work but it's simply not viewed as the most critical part of the organization so it is a you know you talked about reducing the people's titles okay your senior manager somewhere well we'll give you the money and we'll give you a path to get there but we're not going to give you that recognition right now it's even harder for tpm because you tend to not have the product influence of the pms but you also tend not to have the engineering depth of the engineering managers so you can bring management if you're a tpm manager right so if you're managing tpms you can bring that experience but the expectation will still be there because again in google you have or all these companies you have the engineering track and you have the pm track which is separate and the pm track is totally not technical or if it's technical it's like great that you have technical experience it'll help you better translate the product needs to what engineering can provide um tpm has some technical uh two has more technical to it as well than pn because they're in the day-to-day but it's a hard sell to say that experience matches the engineering lab and a lot of that can be biased right i mean a lot of these things are again a form of credentialing like in theory you could do just as well on the interview so i don't think it's it's wrong to interview i don't think it's it's a problem but i think especially because uh in these top-tier companies like google and facebook the recruiters have a lot of control over where you're leveled so the way the process tends to work is they'll they'll pick you out on linkedin they'll pick you out of a hat however they find you and they'll look at your resume they'll look at the companies you're at and they especially for lower levels uh they have a very clear rubric it's like number of years and numbing like blah blah blah but at more senior levels it's a bit of a judgment call on their part but they will decide what the loop looks like and they will decide if you're going for an engineering track or a tpm track or whatever and you as the interviewee can of course express a preference and and the recruiter wants to hire you but they also want to be cognizant of people's time and so if the success rate is low for say a tpm lead who's managed let's say four or five people to go be an engineering manager it's just not something they're gonna wanna do right so you you have that roadblock so i would say it is a challenge to to switch from from tpm to an em role it's actually easier to do when you're inside the company because there may be tracks for that there may be there may be a path if people know you if people uh have faith in what you've done and you've actually contributed technically to a significant degree there might be that kind of opportunity but from the outside there's just no way to to credential yourself to meet these screens that the recruiters do lots to talk about this i would say let's switch gears and go to questions there are like 65 questions at this point and i know you also have a hard stop at 11. so let's start with let's start from the top i will uh i'll keep reacting questions and i'll i'll ask you uh for that folks uh folks if i do not happen to pay a lot of attention to a question it is nothing personal um i will do so only if i feel like we have addressed it a little bit in the last last 25 minutes that we have 20 minutes that we have been chatting um and then yani has a hard stop i i do have a few minutes after that so i'm happy to continue as well but let's uh let's make the most use of yanny's time and and i'll just go from question to question i'll mumble the question and then uh if i feel like yeah this hasn't been answered yet i will ask annie and then we'll go from there um there are lots and lots of them i i'll tell you i'm not going to be able to get through all of them but again nothing personal just just being efficient for time and we can continue a little bit later as well um okay i'm an engineer legitimately entered how can i transform to become a manager outside my company so so this is interesting and i think there are a few of these these uh lingering around as well like how do i become a manager like i understand that i am and i see i understand i can't apply directly just become magically become a manager like how do i develop my leadership skills or like how do i how do i transition into management like what i what are some of some of the so some of the paths forward for me like my desire to become valuable what's the right path forward on this yeah i would say that the first thing is always to make sure that you actually want to be a manager right a lot of people don't necessarily think about the role uh or everything the role entails they see what they see so as an ic i approach a manager and i see things like well they have one-on-ones with me and they do presentations and you know you see the outside i think it's important to make sure you understand what the role entails and what people look for and what your day-to-day will be like and the best way to do that is to talk to people who are managers there should be a lot of opportunities in your company to to meet people to have coffee with them or virtual coffee as we're doing now to have mentors it's a great opportunity to ask them hey what's your day like what's your biggest problem and see if this is something you want to do so assuming you've done that and you want to do that i i think again your your best bet is to grow organically within the organization so it starts with when you're having career conversations with your manager or your manager's manager in a skipped level one is to express interest first express interest and talk about why you want to do it because again if i'm listening to somebody if i'm on the other side of this equation and i hear i want to be a manager okay great why uh if you have a good response and you you have a good understanding of the role and why you want to do it then i'm inclined to help you if it's like well i don't like coding as much or you you don't have an answer or it's just people won't want to help you as much so make sure you've thought it out well why you want to do this second thing i would say is part of being a manager is identifying opportunities within the organization so do that look around your organization look around what you're doing and help identify places for you to jump into that role so if for this person who says i'm an engineer lead of 10 to 12 projects and how do i transform them to becoming an engineering manager well i would say 10 to 12 projects is a lot of projects for one person right in fact i don't know how you could be really deep in any one of those projects if you're managing 10 to 12 at a time i would say if you can identify a small set of projects that are very important to the company or to the team or to the organization and then you have engineers that you lead technically right then you can have a conversation around can i can i be their actual manager right so the key is to have a good report these people so if i am the leader and i go talk to them and i say hey do you want to be managed by soho or what do you think of sohom the answer should be oh he's great to work with and uh you know he he really helps me and all this uh and if you you need to have created that relationship with the people who you hope to manage and your goal should be to get three people or so uh four people who are related to your project that you're already leaving technically to be your report and by the way as a manager if your manager is managing 12 15 ics the they would be so happy if they felt that you could step up and lead those people and take over the the people management for those people so they want to do this people it's hard to manage 10 12 people so if you have the opportunity if you have somebody who's interested and has potential and people relate to and like they they'll want to put you in that role so that would be that i think the most likely path to success for for this person wonderful wonderful yeah yeah it's um and to get point i think analogically uh this i forget who had told me this but it was quite right uh management is like hogwarts right for ics it you just you just don't know that it exists like it's like completely different world when you move from ic to manager and the kind of things that you have to do you never imagined that you would have to do as a model and so uh it's like a completely different world like the calibration stuff the the motivating people being a umbrella for the people you manage playing the defensive politics that you have to play like uh allocating resources across the team like some of those things are just completely hidden from the mughal world like i see word for it so so toyani's point i think folks i i'm not sure if you guys caught it but like he said be certain that you want to become one right it is it is not a cakewalk um and the other analogy i can give you uh is hunger games like you are you go you do not get to make excuses once you get into management so it's an ic you can still make some excuse as a manager you can't make excuses you've done that okay um thank you thank you annie i'll uh i'll i'll keep moving um say one second uh i think this one has been answered can i directly get a job as a new manager without being without having my current experience as engineering managers um okay so that has been answered the how much domain knowledge matters uh is it acceptable to lead teams and domains you are new to that's an interesting one yani would you did you hire somebody who comes from a completely different domain um so yes uh modulo the company you're interviewing with so again if you're interviewing with google or facebook and they're doing this committee hiring you're by definition not necessarily going to end up leaving a team that you have deep domain knowledge on so that's already the general practice for companies that tie you to a particular management position they're more likely to value domain knowledge but i'll use my own example uh myself at apple i joined the siri proactive team which was basically an nlp ml processing team and i had zero experience in my mouth and the reason why this role made sense and then the person hired me was because they were looking for a very technical manager and they were having this classic problem of the people who they liked from a major perspective simply didn't have the technical depth and the people they liked from the technical depth did not seem ready to be managers and this position was open for nine months and uh it was like okay he found me and he's like look okay he doesn't know ml but we have ics for no ml but this person shipped products before uh this person has managed teams before so they checks all the other boxes so short answer is yes uh depending on the company you choose that might be the default like uh google or facebook is generally the default that that they're not looking for deep domain expertise especially in an l6 right make sense make sense awesome thank you um thank you that makes that makes total sense um are you guys going to be presenting curriculum first for email so sure we okay at interview kickstarter a lot of managers who come in for preparation currently we don't have a special manager course at the moment we we will be we will be carving out one few months but but our what our belief is that the best preparation for for engineering manager role at tier one company is like that of an ic you you should be solid in your technical skills both on the coding side and the design side and then you need to get your stories straight like that of a manager so yani is one of the management coaches on the platform and and if you are joining innova kickstart as a manager right you would obviously get get good on on the coding side on the design side and then you work with yani and coaches like annie chieflyani actually where you would get your stories straight and and get your leadership skills answered and those correct so so even today as is you could join ik as that end and we do the things that jani mentioned earlier the curriculum is set in that way um and in a few months we'll carve out a specialized track but but but it's going to be very similar to what we do today anyway i hope that answers the question uh uh let me know if this is ryan just quickly quick uh quick thing to add on that so guys if you are um coming in to prepare from an engineering manager perspective there are multiple things about the course that can also be customized right for you so we allow you for example to take repeat classes right through the process you could for example take more repeat classes and focus them more on system design right because as an engineering manager that might be something you want to focus on a bit more your linkedin profile you're resuming right these are things like swam said you can customize by spending time with one of our career coaches because the kind of things that a recruiter looks for in a engineering profile is going to be as a as a manager profile it's going to be slightly different also from a from a mock interview perspective right you could you could try and schedule interviews with people who are already engineering managers or uh potential directors of engineering right but that being said i i do want to caveat this with what sohan said that essentially the way we think about this process is that there is a core set of of problem solving capabilities that one really needs to build up for any level of engineering interviews and the course is centered around building up those chief problem solving capabilities right um and also as i'm said in the next couple of months we are we are likely to introduce um we like you to introduce a program that is more tailored right um let's let's let's let's say that that's a layer on top of the the current cake right that's focused largely on the engineering management all right thanks i just want to add that quickly first um thanks ryan uh yani this is an interesting one uh i i if i work at a at a not so well known company i want to get into a fan company like is my chan is my chance better to get in as an ic or an em if i could if i could go into either which one should i try this is actually a very good one well i so i would say that uh you should go for the one that you want to do right because if you want to be a manager and you go in the ic track it's a different ladder so at places like google and facebook they make it easy to transfer and part of the reason why they do these committee interview processes is the idea is they're holding a global bar for a particular ladder for a particular level so if you see a role that is the same ladder and level you can simply go talk to that manager and if they like you and you like them you can just say okay i'm moving to that team that's the idea or one of the things that you get for this system if you come in on the ic track you need to be able to switch to the am ladder so it is not the the sort of standard i'm just switching teams and same uh the other way around if you're on vm uh track especially because they're hiring uh you know even though they don't explicitly say it the the technical bar is a bit lower people won't trust that you can be the equivalent level i see on the ic ladder so i would say you should do the thing you want to do because uh number one it's gonna be hard to switch number two you're probably not gonna be as good at the other thing right if you kind of go into it where i'm gonna be in ic for what one year two years three years and establish myself and then i'm gonna switch and i'm gonna spend that whole time thinking about how i'm going to switch probably not going to work out great for you now i think there's something embedded in there which is interesting which is how much does credentialing matter when you join a fan i mean by credentialing i mean like you have a company previously on your resume like apple or microsoft or something and i would say it helps when you get in the door so it helps the recruiter pick you on linkedin it helps the recruiter level you right because they might say well i know what an engineering manager is at google and what google generally needs to do but company shmo i have no idea what it means to be an engineering manager there so i'll be a little more conservative and maybe instead of leveling them at an l6 i'll level them l5 with the possibility to stretch to an l6 if they do great on the loop so credentialing doesn't matter but usually just to get in and if you think of a company the size of google or facebook or apple uh they have they're recruiting thousands of people right a year there's just no way that they could only recruit from apple or facebook or whatever so they are bringing people in from other companies and perhaps less well-known companies and so on so i think that there's probably a bit of a disadvantage of not having the credentialing but it's not that high so i would say get uh get in get in by connecting with recruiters on linkedin uh get in by getting referrals and get on the ladder you want to be on for which you have experience and make a credible case and i think that would be your most successful route got it um awesome thank you honey uh this this next one is also another very popular one but i think it's more or less a debate it's not a definitive answer is can can manager skills be developed right if i can i can practice coding but what about management is something that either is it like are people born with it is there a skill that can be developed uh what is the what is the idea what do you what do you believe i suppose what do you think are there is [Music] i think that there is some nature to it in the sense that certain personality types will do better in management right uh you need to be somebody who can be at least impart a consensus builder right you're you generally you know the the cartoonish version of management you see in movies where boss gets mad and tells you what to do just number one doesn't happen generally but in tech companies where i see talent is so valuable it's even less so right so a lot of a lot of those type of interpersonal skills having a personality type that matches that will help you so if you're introverted it's harder to be a manager than if you're extroverted and so on but a lot of the skills can be learned a lot of the skills are presentation skills in fact one of the biggest pieces of feedback i tend to give in the behavioral interviews is uh sounds simple but you didn't answer my question like i'll say i'll ask a question like tell me about the most interesting job you had and somebody will just go off on like their latest job or you know you know we we implemented uh the lowest latency queue popping for sms messaging and telcos and it's like okay but what was interesting about that like why why do i care why do you care right so being able to to look at your audience and think about what they're asking you and why they're asking you and target your answer to what their uh their question is is very important you you would present a product differently to the vp of engineering than you would to the new intern that just joined from from university right so these kind of skills can be learned how to structure your response how to read what's important to the other person these are all things you can practice and do better at so i think yeah i think mostly management can be learned i think the the personality type that you are uh makes it either easier or more difficult to do the day-to-day job um and and you gotta like it like liking it is is a prerequisite because like you said there's a lot of of things that aren't so good um and there's actually things that are worse than what soham was saying about you know being a umbrella on this stuff i mean these are all like even though they're hard they're positive things like you're on your team and you're helping them but think about things like you need to reorg your team and some people are going to be out maybe they're either you have to lay them off or maybe it's not so bad maybe it's simply that these rules just don't exist and they need to find some other role in the company right but that's still hard on somebody somebody's built their life around doing this thing or living in this area or so on and you know what if you have a team that the whole business reason for it doesn't exist anymore like these are all very difficult things to do um but the the ways you can cope with them the ways you can present them to people the ways you can help your people grow and deal with change are all things you can learn i mean people learn to be psychiatrists and psychologists people learn to be teachers right you can learn to to be a better engineering leader and a better manager that is fascinating that's a very fascinating comparison hearing um yeah a manager is like a part psychologist part economist right part like a like a cheerleader right and and obviously part engineer as well that's very interesting awesome thank you thank you um the next one is interesting as well yanny i'll break it into two parts do you see differences between companies in em roles like google vm versus a facebook game versus an apple em versus versus amazon em microsoft em like is it like a big difference like so it does something stand out uh yes i would say there's definitely differences i mean uh they're substantial and they're basically differences in culture so if you look at somebody like google they have a very much bottom-up culture and a very much tech driven culture and you can see it in the products like there's a reason why like google drive may have the really the coolest back-end storage in the industry but then doesn't work with like gmail right or you know these kind of things and then you have like apple where you know it took them three years to get cut and paste on the original iphone but everything works together and and you get an apple tv and you get an apple phone and you can send the url from your safari on your phone device to your tv and you can see it on the screen so these cultural different differences permeate the organization so like a google manager may uh spend more of their time doing consensus building with their their technical reports and technical reports in other parts of the organization because so much of the outcome is based on sort of the organic bottom-up uh decision-making of the team someone like microsoft who has a more of a gm model where there's somebody who owns the product and owns all the functions of the product like has dev test and pm reporting into them well they're decision makers right so when you're in a gm org the way you manage is is different because you're much closer to the decision maker so you have much better clarity in in the direction you're going and that means it's more about bringing the people below you and next to you along uh when you're in a google it's really you're not getting the clear direction because it's all matrix you know you go from your director to the vp to the svp and you know somewhere sindar's level they figure out what the product is or something uh and and at that i'm being a little facetious there but you know and so so you have less clear direction and it's more about building the direction up at a at an apple it's also matrix but it's heavily product driven so while you you have autonomy in engineering it is it is very important that everything work together which means it's a lot more i would say cross-functional than than a google facebook is very product driven so even though it's organized similarly there's a lot more difference to the product outcome versus the technical outcome i believe so so are these large differences i mean uh they're not large differences in terms of the skill set you need to navigate the organizations you still need to be able to bring people along you need to be able to mentor people you need to be able to deliver difficult news you need to be able to as you said be a umbrella and figure out how you translate information coming from different layers but the emphasis and and sort of what your day-to-day is and how much control you have in this particular part of the organization will vary depending on the culture i see and and and and and i know you have to go in a couple minutes um could you could you contrast this to a tlm position where does tlm sort of fit into the into the into the company and then and then from an interview perspective as well like could you just get in as a tlm for example right you can you can get in as tlm so just to make sure we're talking about the the same thing here so tlm you need technical lead manager so people who manage on the icu ladder run yes yes and they're like supposed to be poised with an em at some point right on this so well not necessarily no again it's a different ladder so when you're on a career ladder then the career path that is set up for you and the the natural growth is up that ladder there are no ladders where the natural growth is go find a different ladder because then it would be on that ladder i mean that the definition of the latter is you move along it so a tlm somebody is joining let's say as an l6 ic who will have uh be a technical lead and then have people reporting to them they'll be a tlm they'll be a technical lead manager um but there is no uh the next rung in the ladder is to go from let's say an l6 tlm to an l7 and the delta between l6 and l7 might be a few more reports but it would be mostly about the scope the technical scope that person has uh and and the importance of organization right whereas if you're an l6 em you're going to have a certain number of people and then the the growth comes by managing managers and by you again have breath your breath through the reporting chain you have and you might be a tl for like a larger area so for example myself i'm the tl for graphics at stadia and there's other tls below me and some of them are tlms some of them people who manage some of them are just technical leads but the the emphasis the focus is on the people management interesting very interesting okay awesome um given that you work at bloomberg do you have ideas on how the how the process at citadel and two sigma and jane street and some of these high frequency trading firms codes like is it the same as google facebook i think or do you know firsthand so i don't know specifically i do have a friend worked at two sigma but i don't i guess i won't say something authoritative about any particular company's process my observation from east coast companies i'll call them technical companies that are based on east coast seems much more based on credentialing and uh individual interview loops so at google facebook the idea is to standardize there's a lot of effort to remove bias there's a lot of effort to get a basically a homogeneous bar so that people can do things like move around the organization and and google can have confidence in their hiring process at these east coast companies i think there's a lot more individual team autonomy so the interview you might get in one bloomberg team might be totally different than another one for example there's no there's no enforced homogeneity and my observation is that there's less focus on sort of these stock questions like make a hash table and there's a lot more focus on your experience there's a lot more conversation about it that basically those companies seem to value credentialing more than uh the west coast companies west you know west coast has the meritocracy uh goal or illusion or you know depending on your perspective right but there's a lot more focus on being objective in the feedback and and on the east coast it's a lot more about hey what have you done tell me tell me more about what you did here and a little bit more subjective got it awesome awesome thank you annie um i think it's it's past 11 if you have to jump off feel free to as well if you if you can stay we'd love to announce a couple more either way yes actually for me it is 8 p.m and dinner time so i will be leaving but uh it was great chatting uh chatting with you so um and it's great uh meeting everybody all 236 people who are now on the call and i hope i was able to answer some of your questions awesome thank you annie appreciate that um yeah folks i'm i'm happy to stick around for a few more minutes and i will take some of the other questions as well though obviously i won't be able to take all 100 um but but i'll definitely get to maybe about 10 or so thank you all right all right folks again my name is um one of the two founders of interview kickstart i come from a technical background i was at box for quite some time i was a director of engineering i've hired managers in my life as well obviously ics and managers both let me take some of your questions see if i can if i can answer them um let's see and we have taken by the way we have taken the most frequently asked questions here um by as judged by the upwards right to this uh all the questions which had three or more reports have been answered by annie uh let's see let's take some more can we actually progress to higher management levels via interviews but i've seen that people those knowledge will get higher via network of past references so let's see generally it is rare to get hired at higher levels period like there are the most hiring is at l3 l4 and then l5 l6 that are fewer high l5 even fewer l six even figure l seven even field so that is correct generally speaking moving up in a company is as much a function of who you are as what the company is and so you have to imbibe the company culture the company stack the previous decisions the management buy-ins all that right so most people who who go up the ladders are usually people within the company and so coming from outside the percentage is actually quite small many of these people coming from outside are through acquisitions as well so so yes your best bets are at three four five uh level sometimes six as well though like yani said you can't decide your level recruiter has a lot of influence on what it is a hiring committee obviously has a lot of influence on which level you are at but typically it is true that generally you can't really just interview for an l8 position uh randomly like that like a very few elites get hired every year i mean you can but like it's it's it's again supply demand as well it's much easier to get promoted as an alert lately you if you are in the company early right and then you get promoted up um i hope that answered it uh l6 ic is level six individual contributor uh it's just a senior ic and yani talked about a couple of flavors of it as well like somebody who actually can manage a few people and call it tl tlm as well i hope that answers it what does the transformation look like from a managed senior manager to manager of of managers that's an interesting one just experience just experience if you are ad if you are managing a a group of engineers right time goes and and hopefully you manage them well right that people at a distance and people above you you realize that you can manage a nugget of people then they give you two nuggets of people right when somebody leaves or there's an opportunity right they'll say okay john manage these two now right now you just get into the boxing ring at that time right there's no like training for it there's no transformation it's an opportunity you've done a good job in the past managing one team let's try two teams it's if you manage one team it is unlikely that you're going to watch two teams or more teams um you will there is there is some bit of a learning curve but but this but the but the experience the decision making uh required to manage one team right generally says that if you've done that fairly well then you will be able to manage more it's just a question of of of time and you should you should have done full cycle management like you should hire people fired people maybe if you're done reorgs you should have motivated the team you should have delivered stuff and then then i get enough confidence that okay yeah you can manage a group of people and then here is another one which is just that um what about program management as soon as we we hopefully touch that um in the in the call uh is there uh a minimum number you need to manage we can roll interview as a manager we answered that no magic number elisa what comes after being a manager for a few years in terms of your career where does your career lead into beyond your own the manager level um generally the idea is that you continue to grow into the company if you're good at this managing thing and if you can manage not only down but sideways and up right and you can suss the opportunities in the company then you just go into managing larger teams right generally the idea is you that you become a part of a growing company and you keep your eyes and ears open about where the growth is when there is a growth growth from the bottom it will it will push you up so you continue to just rise in that ladder the other pathway after being management is to make a lateral move into a smaller company in a higher title if you're a manager senior manager at google you can go as a director at a smaller company it is possible and then you pull that company with your weight you pull that company up with your weight that's the second career path and then the third one really just is [Music] is that you start your own thing so i hope that answers a little bit um as well i'd like to go in manage your role any tier company currently when i see some services company earlier move from service product no management product company what [Music] um so i mean that then i the advice actually is not not different from from any other any other general advice that jani has given you when when somebody is looking at your role um at your candidacy in this uh they are generally if they give you an interview you just have to ace the interview that's it then your background matters a bit less right you do you [Music] create your stories to say your stories in a way which are impressive and that is one big thing that that we do at your kickstart right with people like yani um as well so so whatever your background is you to figure out how it all threads together how you can present it in a way that is actually impressive and authentic and then it's it's fine but the service company product company matters less it matters more in getting an interview versus what's like actually clearing an interview right if you have been manager before so do online management courses from hb stanford help no mbas and and management courses like when you're not a manager very little especially in the valley um there is [Music] there is a phobia against management kind of courses for a management role you can't you can't replace experience with that in fact there is a running joke that when you go raise the funding if you have three people in your team and you and you raise funding and say okay i want like how do you how do you ask for money when you have three people in your team and you are the ceo or the founder of the company and you go and raise money you'd say you'd say 500 500 500k for every engineer and minus 500k for every mba right so uh and i understand you're not talking about mba hbs at stanford uh necessarily but in general you can't hope to take a course and then become a manager like that you need some experience certainly with that with experience yes it just adds to it and when you are at a company they send you for courses and all that that is that adds to it but otherwise not right so i hope um i hope that that answers um some of that as well [Music] do managers make more money than i see then we address that as well generally not uh generally not there is slight bit of slight delta sometimes in terms of uh equities but like usually not overall no now there are companies where that is true like our perspective is good companies right good companies solid solid technical skills are valued the same as solid management skills what is the job letter senior manager director senior director vp is the same for test manager of the vertical about the same practically exactly the same see you realize that you will not be promoted in the management ladder if the company doesn't need you to go up right if the company is not growing right you will not be promoted right so just sitting at a place and managing a team of five people you will not go from engineering manager to senior manager director right the company has to grow and it needs more people to be hired and then there is an opportunity to say oh you manage two teams and three teams and now you're a senior manager now you need bigger functions now your director the company is not growing then there is no point then you will not grow despite whatever ladder right on this like they will not just hand you a new title and give you more money because they don't need more work from you right so okay how to answer the question how do you manage it under an underperforming employee um i that is it's a loaded question um i'm happy i mean we do go into the into that in in the course but but that is that is that's a question which does have some canned answers yes uh to say how do you manage an underperforming employee um but but it is also about how you say it as well i mean the canned answers are pretty straightforward one is one is that as a manager somebody is underperforming like you should know first right and you should tell them like the systems to actually figure that out well before it becomes a problem that's the first step in your canned answer right and then how do you tell them you have to you have to communicate that very clearly sometimes with the help of hr and then you have to give them enough opportunities right and then there is also discussion about about understanding the person right they they come from they come from a different background and such so so there are there are different different ways to think about that um but but it but it's a it's a pretty popular question it's a and there are there are good answers to that as well and they're all along these lines figure out that this is happening communicate properly give them opportunities and keep moving how important you would need management experience prior to considering for that party so much okay we answered that interview l6 l7 ronnie we answered that as well um let me know if not if i were what would tier 1 companies look for in manager in one-on-one interactions not sure i exactly understand what do the tier one companies look for in the manager or one-on-one is it in interviews or not in interviews if it is in interviews it's just just you know again he said coding design and soft skills um if you're talking about one-on-one one-on-ones as a manager once you go in it's just how you're managing the team um let me know so if you're still here feel free to clarify what makes a good manager again it's a three-hour question lots of good things lots of things that are required to be a good manager but um but generally you just have to read people right you read people and you have to choose the right words to communicate to people really those two skills have to be nailed after that everything is based on the foundation of it if you can sense what might be going wrong again you will never be perfect but if you can sense what's going wrong and you can actually communicate it properly right a lot of things rest is all just just scaffolding around it again long question good question [Music] should engineers credit path end as a manager or can they stay engineers no no they can stay in general early they can stay engineers there are lots of lots of engineers who never want to become managers lots of people try and manage when they come back like valley is very very open to all that so don't don't worry about it at all generally complicated management track versus ic track no anchor it doesn't grow faster in management not necessarily you only grow in the management track if the company needs you to grow otherwise otherwise no i mean it's just my compensation is a very different beast supply demand is one how your interviews have gone right is the other thing like which area you are in you sense and say okay stadia is doing well let me just go there right and stadia is the focus of the company at this time there's more money there there's a lot of factors in compensation that's not a black and white answer and even i see is same thing as well generally your compensation grows in proportion to your skills of growing your compensation well it is not about management or i see your company you get promoted faster when you latch on to a manager who gets promoted faster so like that kind of that kind of politics so to speak uh some people call it politics i think it's just natural you latch on to like then your compensation go much faster than debating ic versus not ic yeah how age does age make a diff make a difference in hiring an em i have not managed people i chose with um if you're not managed people obviously there is no way to know it's pretty unlikely that you will get get even an interview uh but generally once you get if you have managed people you get an interview um then age is not that much of a factor like age might be a factor or an icy side but not a factor on the management side actually [Music] much less much less obviously interviews interviews will they will take a chance and then interviews is you where it uh where it becomes clear two years ago i moved from an edge manager role to an ico now i want to move back to em roll how you're playing just like anything else if you if you want an em then you go to ic then you come back to em just just like anything else just like a normal like ic can go to em that's fine it'll be easier for you because you will know what to answer you you understand this game so um if you used to be a manager but moved to l6 role for a few years to constrain the techniques because how do you market also before you when the enemy begins then during the interview too most of times during the first spring recorded essays any relevant experience in this into three years so yes sometimes that does happen uh you have to go in with a recommendation or something like that right when you see that that is happening that they had you have management experience but your most recent experience is else is i see for several years and the recruiter calls it out you have to either influence it then right there or end or go with some sort of some sort of a recommendation otherwise it's it's very difficult very difficult to really just just get past the recruiter in that sense um sometimes it does happen sometimes when you talk to sometimes what happens is that your first call after the recruiter is with the hiring manager itself in that case you can tell them this is what you're looking for so if an opportunity exists they will they will move you but but there is no rubric that exists inside companies to say if this is the case and do that generally generally recruiters don't understand all this and so they will just go by the book like to say oh last few years not their previous not not sure what is happening and so i will not consider it right and then but you have to influence it [Music] um other typical behavioral questions um i think it's a long long question let me go to uh let me go to another ones as well but like generally they are all around how do you manage teams how do you how do you motivate people how do you reduce a tech debt how do you how do you sense how do you sense the changes required right all just just things like that it's like for managers do people generate them as high leadership qualities uh it doesn't really matter really how they rate themselves in leadership qualities interview tells the story one another right it's that's really the point so uh interviews are wherever meets the road you could anybody could rate whatever they want to rate themselves in in the leadership qualities but the answers to the questions in leadership qualities just tell me exactly what they're looking for if they've for example if they're they're applying for a senior manager role and they have never fired a person i'll i'll tell you that one they're lying and whatever did what they what they call themselves in leadership is not going to matter and there are obviously cases on the other side as well why someone want to join lower role even with same comp um because it's it's a you you may not be coming from a very well-known company it's possible and you want to join at a well-known company um and and there are many many reasons why people people do that right you know why would why would you ever take a lower role with the same company there are many many reasons and different stages of your career you you make different choices [Music] so the biggest one is that you you're not coming from a very well-known company when you want to grow you join a growing company when you see that in the next two years you'll grow faster here versus there right so that's why that's generally why why people do it how are switching from consulting to engineering [Music] again if you've never managed people right like just a title is not the point the point is if you have managed people then whether it is a consulting role or not doesn't really matter right if you not manage people then the title doesn't matter so that's generally the gist of it in a nutshell um i've seen tpm become senior software managers google amazon so amazon more encode than than google yes and amazon amazon cares less in the interview process they care more after you join and the culture is is more cutthroat than it is at google and culture wheels people out for it so so as long as you are in the ballpark they will give you an offer and you can move after that they will after that you have to survive that's the point google i've seen less transitions like that generally what happens is that if you have a reputation as a very technical tpm right then that happens if you have a reputation of actually if you have experience managing people before right um and reputation of actually dealing with people very well then then some of those things can happen as well best way to grow from em managing large teams to senior em grow join a growing company that's the best way you wanna grow in the management ladder join a growing company if you're if you're joining a growing if you're not in a growing company like you will not grow whatever the hell you want right the company will not promote you you have to go into areas which which are growing that's the best for a tier three or and four companies handling low performance resources totally different from tier one and two what is the answers i expected from tf so first of all don't call them resources the moment you call resources you're not gonna get even an interview if you put that on the resume you're not gonna get an interview and people are not resources um that is a there's a very very service uh service to your company um lingo so so so make sure you don't don't do that the the otherwise otherwise you we have to dive into where you are coming from what what sort of performance management is there and and um and such and so so very difficult to tell without details but generally speaking you can always tell a story properly right um if you managed several people and you had to let somebody go whether you are in a service company tier 3 4 company also it is not an easy task and and somebody trusted you to do that and you did that well so there has to be a way to tell that story properly right you can't you can't start with that and say oh this is this is not a story they will like you have to make a story that they will like out of that same circumstance that's a skill that's an art that comes with coaching right yes okay um folks i'll go for five more minutes obviously the questions have been just coming in and in and in um the uh um and and i highly appreciate you guys asking questions i don't think i'll be able to survive answering that many but i will take some more certainly uh for a company what is the trade-off between promoting transitioning someone from inside versus hiring someone outside there is no trade-off and on if i can promote from within i will i will promote from within right there is no humanly possible reason why i would bring somebody from outside so i will only bring somebody from outside if i can't promote from within promoting from within is a super motivator and and i not only to that person but for everybody else right everybody else feels like they will become manager someday that's a very big task with this very big act of motivation and your biggest problem as an engineering manager is motivation so i so so if there is somebody from inside they will get promoted whatever you are from outside um obviously there are exceptions but but rare exceptions if you're growing really fast you just can't find people inside and that's how that would happen um do you have any must read book recommendations from managers no just throw yourself into the rink throw yourself into the ring um and just manage more right uh do coaching there's no book recommendation if you want to do anything you could read something called crucial conversations there's another one called difficult conversations as well um those are the two the two books because a lot of this is about conversations right the things that that you'd hate it as an ic where you call them people just talk right that's what you have to do now right as a manager and that's a that's a very important thing so read difficult conversations or crucial conversations right as well um okay all right good questions of do fang companies automatically down level uh from for example l6 to l5 and targeting from level two generally yes generally yes if you're coming from a non-equivalent company you will be down level in that sense yes that is typically true um do you have any discount offer alumni who likes to take retake the ik session yeah slightly misplaced i suppose but but just reach out to reach yes we do yes we do just reach out to start at interview kickstart as a and and somebody will somebody will get back to you email address is started [Music] um does mba hold any value we discuss that not not very much once you are a manager then you can do an mba you will get under a better understanding of the business but to break into an emp role less much less not not in tier one places who get more visibility in organization here it depends on the organization culture like yani answered before right i will keep moving uh you and icos want to move to em whatever what is a good reason to move to em the the the biggest good reason to move to em is is really you just want to magnify your impact and you manage a team of five ten people as a group what you can pull off you will never be able to pull off as a single person that is the right reason to be an engineering manager right and you want the people under you to have solid careers right you want to take care of them those those are the uh yep that's uh that's the idea can i connect anyone from ike to get more detail about em track i need more detail yes i'd reach out to reach out to uh start at interview kickstart certainly thanks for watching could you throw a live em versus tpm yeah and it did that um i hope that that helped um how to transition from an ic role to em role for prep we we discussed that as well any speak tips on applying for em roles after being yes do you need to have em experience yes we discussed that what does the em do exactly only we discussed that as well um they manage the team they they get things delivered right there is there's a charter that comes from above that this is the area you're responsible for but these are the cars for the next few years next next few weeks and months and quarters motivate the team like select the right team and then get going staff of as em at a small non-fan company for a few years versus gpm at fang and growing into interim which one to pick staff offer as em in a small non-prank company for a few years [Music] versus tpm company growing internally to vm um if you have a tpm offer at a fan company and you feel like you can grow internally as a 2em you should take that not not the start-up i think being at fang is completely different experience it it gives you far more career satisfaction than than not kinds of problems that you'll solve kind of kinds of teams that you'll work with the kind of challenges that you will be put into is very different i would prioritize flying over non-tank practically any any day all right folks i think that's the that's the end of my patience uh honestly unless i really appreciate you asking questions that is that is what i love but unfortunately i can't get to all of them today um feel free to feel free to reach out to us start at interview kickstart if you if you need any help on on any side of this and um and feel free to attend our attendee the um the enrollment workshop also that we do like three or four times a week as well so um and and we discuss a lot of this in the course as well a lot of these questions get answered in the program uh in the career coaching sessions like there are everyday sessions so awesome thank you again for your interest um don't don't not answer don't not ask questions in the next seminar or next next webinar or the next session the only question that is not that is stupid is the one not asked right so feel free to continue to ask and then we'll continue to answer as much as we can to the best of our ability time and energies [Music] thank you [Music] you

Channel: Interview Kickstart

Views: 17,596

Rating: 4.6907215 out of 5

Keywords: interview kickstart, engineering manager interview, engineering manager job, faang interview, how to become engineering manager, engineering manager, engineering manager interview prep, engineering manager interview preparation

Id: 9ovIcUyNMuw

Length: 83min 24sec (5004 seconds)

Published: Sun Aug 02 2020