EFAP #271 – Ethics in Art and A.I - The Trial of Asmongold w/ Moriarty and JonCJG

you I can't have all this attention [Music] no sorry well it's all right I forgive you but we are indeed live once again god it feels like it wasn't yesterday that we were streaming an EAP episode to be honest with you yeah it's cuz it wasn't it was today for me anyway for me well it was yesterday for but not it was only 12 hours ago so you know crazy how life life will get you that way hello chat I was going to say may as well guarantee that it's going to cut out at least once during the stream but that's okay we're ready for it we know the drill now it's fine and then hopefully this will be the last one before my new internet is here I mean I guess it's not really a drill it's wait patiently for that's the drill I guess Panic don't run don't you know assume the worst and go crazy no craziness here only nice and happiness another of the twitch again you know like after everything that we did yesterday SL today to stream again feel it does feel a little it was a little odd you know feels a little strange and we got another whole Adventure I was actually going to mentioned but for me it was like it was work I was doing before we did the stream yesterday and then as soon as we were done with the other stream I did work on it I went to sleep for a bit and then did work on it ready for today I've got a compilation for us the yeah you always love those episodes right guys right um that's right I don't know if there always something there always something there always something there always his his his montages of Madness but uh yeah I I I noted on Twitter that the streamer asman gold of twitch was getting dog piled harassed and cancelled I that's just a reference to the Past EAP all he he' said about it was just that yeah wow [ __ ] I pissed off a bunch of people which is probably a better attitude to say than to say like you've slighted me with cruelty or something you know dramatic and expressive but at the same time it's like what's going on what's going on here and you sort of look into it and check it out and there was a main clip that was going viral and then if you dig into it there's some subjects that can be covered and then you know dig enough like I do sometimes and you find stuff that you weren't supposed to find I think or at least most people wouldn't want you to find and uh that's that's where that's what we got ahead of you today the humble EAP listener we got plenty of things to deal with um but hey you know what welcome to EAP episode number 271 271 can you believe it we're almost at the halfway to the anniversary by the way oh man really nice well yeah I guess so yeah really like this is probably the most ever felt like seriously we it wasn't that L but fine yeah you know it's nearly February I give it a couple of days and it'll be February D wasn't it crazy January was like five days it just gone feels like it was five days January always feels quick there so much happening I guess or is the January is the month where nothing's happening right or uh it's usually like it just feels like it goes by yeah I guess so Christmas and going on their and everything things are sort of going back to normal Christmas and the holidays are over you have your little New Year's party and then you're just sort of back to it and then for whatever reason it feels quick well we are joined by by uh John and mariati two wonderful wonderful people who to be honest with you you guys have been on this show so many times now that I feel bad even introducing you I'm just like whatever there they are you know yeah you know these guys they are experts in the uh in the thing we're going to discuss today not at all two guys that I like perspective of and asked to be here that's not it it's it's we brought them on for the professional careers in all of the discussions that are going to be had so um nice and professional that's that's what we do here make everything perfect and wonderful and really there's not much else to to set up I'm sure many people in chat already know about this CU it was all over the place it's probably already old news like yesterday type thing takes 40 hours for a thing to just be gone but I find it fascinating and hey it's it's it's it relates to that PO World game somewhat so you guys like your little video games out there so this will be interesting to you in that way yeah I like video games there you go I actually have really enjoyed po world too so I what is po World about I don't know anything about it uh it's valheim with Pokemon with guns valheim with Pokemon and guns oh all right guns yes yeah are there guns in pal world there are yeah oh what do you do with the guns St I asked you kill the pals with it you sure do oh my God you kill Pals with guns oh yeah and then you can you can chop them up and eat them it's good oh my goodness it's good I don't know if I like this game well it's [Laughter] good like when you cut up and eat the when you shoot the pals and then cut them up and eat them you can you can do that to dogs in that too so maybe there's some netives someone left comment on our previous EAB about how oh so it's it's annoying when you can't shoot children but it's fine when you can set dogs on fire so that was like what the [ __ ] that dogs on fire is this a reference to something I'm not aware of at all and could maybe it's the Oblivion demo or something like that the when Todd was showing off the like like how AI could just do stuff the NPCs would just sort of do things um one of them was dog on fire a woman like paralyzed the dog with with a spell and stunned it and I think apparently later and this is something that Patrician said I think is is she set the dog on fire after after it was stunned and I'm like oh my goodness what a terrible evil person I hope the Dark Brotherhood stabs her well all right fair enough then the all these references I'm just not aware of um but we should probably not delay we should just get right into this first and foremost will be the clip that went viral that was shared we shall see it in its limited context and then we will see people reacting to it and then we will see asmin gold talking about what he meant in the clip so see we can follow this story of events so first comes the clip expect me to draw a moral line I have to perceive a difference that I consider substantial and I do not consider the difference substantial between one do you guys that's the problem the clip begins just already you're just like I don't even know what he's talking about so we have to run with this so far no right no and that's really what matters if it was made with AI I'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence that's not a great quote in isolation uh give him some more it doesn't matter nobody really cares the lead developer has been very positive about AI in the past and made an AI game called AI art impostor that let an AI artist draw a picture and so that that was like like one of the games play this week yes just generally has been much more uh positive about some of the benefits of AI rather than what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know I guess General uh Twitter population which is that you know AI is bad and it takes jobs from people well Ai and the sentiment from artists artists opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because what matters is the opinion of the people that are buying the product like it doesn't like your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't nobody cares like it it's not it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well-respected and and really respectable uh directors talks about how bad Marvel is shut up old man shut up I like watching the Thor movie it was cool am I that's that's that's the clip that got around I'm uh my my opinion that asmin gold is a a simpleton is is this is helping damn all right it ain't helping I uh the problem is for me that I sort of agree with him but I disagree with him at the same time my problem is there's no context I don't know what the [ __ ] I need to know more about what op are if it's just the kind of vague idea that that an artist's opinion doesn't matter on its commercial viability yeah I agree with that right like no well wa wait purely speaking of whether it whether it sells copies exactly you know just well all he's saying is the thing that determines whether or not things are sold is if people buy them right right which I agree with said and see if if people people things are sold if people buy them is what he said yeah uh so it's kind of hard to disagree with that I feel like I need a lot more context well yeah you know when he said um uh I don't care if something's made with AI it was fun it's it's like as a contextless clip there are contexts in which that that that could be a really bad statement um but there's also context where it could be absolutely fine it's h I just need to know more you know so it's like okay uh like I said we're going to see some people fine I think that those aren't going to be the typical contexts though um if you for instance I'm playing a d and d game and sargon's the DM and I'm playing with Dev V and Arch and Sargon is using just like an image generator to just pop out some like NPC faces and some stuff like that for the you know just the d andd game that we're playing and and that's useful for that you know so that's pretty it's it's good that he has that tool to work with um you know it helps for him to just sort of like generate something on the Fly that does a decent enough job at getting a kind of you know an image or Vibe of you know whoever or wherever we are um but we don't treat it with a lot of we don't treat it with any reverence and and he's not like yes I'm a I'm a artist and I'm able to to Really to create these worlds and do all these things because I could put the tags and to the generator that's uh also not being monetized in yeah I mean we're getting some super chats from it but yeah essentially yeah it's not being monetized he's not saying that I am an artist because I can do these things with the AI image generator right and you're not selling the art right like even though the art is being used there it's not the art that's being sold it's your experience and people are coming to see you and and watch uh you play a game right has nothing to do with the art the art is is purely supplemental to the experience in that case uh I think that's fine I think AI has a lot of I'm not a leite right like I have a lot of a hope for AI in the future um it's when it becomes sort of creative that I'm not a big fan of it at the moment uh and it's not even so much that it's like a not a big fan of it being used but just how it's being you seeing I think so yeah like creative in an artistic context right yeah when people are like I'm an artist because I put in the words and then it generated a thousand pictures and I picked the ones that I like that's like you're not you're not an artist mate like don't say you're you're some you're so Talent it's the combination of saying I'm a talented artist and I'm amazing cuz I can do this and also like actual real artists they're [ __ ] and they suck balls and they're terrible you remember um when we're covering denims she she generated the word uh curator as opposed to if if if she's the one that's choosing things and then people are entertained by it like she still has she gets some level of appreciation for that right it's like H um I and again I think it's it's very much about the use case if I'm Wizards of the Coast and I'm using AR artificial intelligence machine learning art generation right to create a card that I'm going to sell to you in a pack of magic cards I think that and and I'm firing my artists at the exact same time which is what has been happening yeah I see some problems with that in the same way that I see problems with you know uh uh replacing anybody with automation I I think that automation has issues commercially I can see that problem and I can see the problem with misrepresent it to me the audience that is buying that where I'm saying my main issue with with this game right like I love this game and I want to play this game and I love the artwork on it and you're giving me something that was created in a matter of seconds right that's an issue for me I don't have a problem with somebody using it because I want to make a meme of of Brian Griffin giving a a hand job I don't care yeah yeah that shit's fine um but even going to into into the card stuff I know like when I played magic that sometimes you would recognize an artist style in different cards that you owned and you're like oh that was a cool thing to notice where without even looking at the the little signature that might be on it you just you notice that oh this card and this card they have a similar style oh it's the same artist you know and that that's kind of like a neat little thing um instead of especially with the AI That's generated now the the the AI images now they're just they all look the [ __ ] same and there's a problem with sort of correlating AI with everything right like if you're using AI as a sort of a an ad hoc editor uh to highlight issues that you maybe didn't see in a piece of of of written work I can absolutely understand using that because you're using it as a tool and in that case it's no different than a grammar checker in a lot of if you're using AI because you want to shortcut your entire creative process that's an issue for me it's especially if you are trying to receive remuneration for it right like that's where it becomes a an ethical sticky point for me and I I should clarify because I'm sure that people I can see people in the chat mentioning my name but I'm not reading you yet um I am sure that there are people who who will take that nuanced take in some sort of a very negative way um I'm not an expert on machine learning right but I I I just I know that there are lots of use cases where AI is very very good if an AI can determine a cancer cell better than a human then it should be used if an AI can drive a car better than a human than should be used uh it's when it becomes creative and when it affects uh Commerce right when we're selling it to somebody like it has value that's when it becomes an issue to me in a creative sense yeah like there's this there's this element of it just it seems like it sucks the soul out of things and I don't want to lose that yeah right like there is no as an artist right like creating art going to to the Philadelphia Museum of Art which I love because it has a whole lot of uh Kandinsky and Kandinsky is my favorite artist I love him so much seeing a Kandinsky piece seeing it next to a Picasso and seeing these two artists and going wow look at you know the decades that brought them to these pieces these beautiful pieces that are affecting me emotionally and and I'm loving everything that I'm seeing here you know that's not something that you can replicate with AI um you may be able to replicate something there but there's more of the human emotional attachment to these great pieces of art we we aren't seeing that I know that's not really the discussion here because we're talking about Pokemon right and to be clear there is no evidence that pal world has any AI in it whatsoever not a single trace of it and I guarantee you that if there is Nintendo with their billions of lawyers will find it eventually and it hasn't been found yet so that should tell you what you need to know about um if there's being used to steal Pokemon right we we'll find out but it's not existing in this and and and I know that that's what we're talking about and I know that that's what asmin is talking about but it just gets simplified and condensed into this concept that all AI is bad because Shad right like that's not it I'm sorry I'm going off surely the scope of the conversation will go beyond po World here right I mean it's it's it doesn't stick on pal world for more than a second it's uh it's really not yeah I don't know anything about it really other than memes and Nintendo lawsuit potentially yeah but I don't know what's with it it's just interesting to listen to uh opinions going back and forth and and I love how fiery chat is we got both directions uh oh super passionate you guys have fun all right enjoy all these terrible takes Chad um but what I was going to say by the way was like I wouldn't run with the whole like you know you said it all look the same Rags like well first of all even it won't forever but I mean I've seen all kinds of different AI Generations that are different than the one you're probably referring to with the the murky blurring of weird things the weird fingers like we know that one commonly but sometimes yeah what are you talking it doesn't it doesn't literally all look this I don't know if I can describe it verbally um you think you can tell whenever it's AI yeah I can usually tell every once in a while maybe I won't but for the most part when all right to be able to I don't think You' know like you wouldn't be able to know that you're seeing it or not and I've already been tricked a couple of times by different pieces I'll just be like oh [ __ ] it's AI right okay um but that's still I I I think still relevant the fact that it's uh it causes a particular experience there's plenty that I can recognize easily but if I'm talking about all of it and some of the best stuff that's even designed to pass like you know the average uh smell check sort of thing uh it wouldn't matter anyway cuz we're going to get anyway the more the more relevant part of the conversation is if the technology is going to get to the point where it's going to get harder and harder to distinguish let's just fast forward past that conversation and get to the more fundamental questions that we actually care about when it comes to the topic of to help people understand Jackson poock paintings versus an AI generation of one it would be pretty [ __ ] hard for you to tell me which one of the five one of them is AI like good luck yeah be very difficult and it's going to be better because you know Dolly came out what two years ago three years ago yeah and uh and it's already at this point now where you are generating stuff that is getting to congress with Taylor Swift being you know in porn um it's it's not going to be much longer before we really won't be a tell yeah that's the other part is that a lot of these uh points of con uh I don't know contention will evaporate over time with just the further Generations so I feel like the argument needs to evolve and be more fundamental perhaps but we shall cover it the longer we go through cuz uh all kinds of things get brought up that we just saw there I don't really understand much of it at all that's the thing it's it's it's kind of lame that it it went as viral as it did because it's so contextless but we're going to see some very angry responses to it wrong about this looking at so many people angry with what I said is kind of shocking to me when you go to Market with a product the only thing that matters is the consumer's perception of that product's value when did this become wrong the only thing that matters if you yeah if you think that people are upset because you said people like like people determine like the like the supply is DET I don't even know how to like distill it down it's it's not the only thing that matters it's a thing that matters yes but it's not the only thing that matters well it's a super corporate soulless way of looking at things and well it's just you know there there's the the idea of a stakeholder right that that doesn't necessarily include people who are like directly financially in connection with the company or its products it can it can relate to people who are indirectly connected to the product compared to like a shareholder who owns the company there are there are stakeholders who but when he says it's the only thing that matters matters to what what does it matter too because if we're talking about what does it matter with regards to how much money it makes right that could definitely be the major determining factor is whether or not people buy it um but but I might not buy it if the artist is like a really shitty [ __ ] you know if he's a piece of [ __ ] and he sucks and he says bad things about me or the people that I like and know and then I might not buy his stuff I mean we see lots of people not being or rather separating art and artist and still buying the art even if they don't like the we see that all the time well yeah but but R's point would be that some people don't sure sure yeah absolutely and therefore therefore it would be said that it matters it can matter but then wouldn't that be the co the consumer's perception of the product's value right like this is such a we we have to know what he's talking about matters to we need more specific claims still is what you're saying yes exactly the success of pal World proves that the only thing customers actually care about is a good game I slavery bestiality copyright infringement it's a video game these are pretend problems that people don't actually care about make good game equals people by game simple okay uh yeah so do you know that there is a huge market for organic food and free range chickens and stuff of that nature where people will go out of their way and even pay more for no tangible gain apart from that is actually going to be ethically brought up later as a Counterpoint but this is just at this point I'd be like so these are just unwise statements like I don't know why you would what why you would think people would be very angry for saying things like this yeah like people have ethics people have personal tastes and stuff like that you wouldn't see you know printed on recycled paper if you didn't it would be a a non statement that meant nothing it would be a waste of ink to point to to put that on a card that says printed on recycled paper if people didn't care about these things also the two it this is not really it's the slavery and beastiality part I have no idea where that comes from but if it's referencing the game then it it's not really those things no no I think he's talking so like slavery would be the production of like you know sweat shops and stuff and then beastiality might be in relation to how animals are treated certain industries I'm not sure no this is all part of the game this is all power 100% power but those things as R was about to say those the the AI and copyright infringement are different from SL slavery andity yeah those are all power world yeah but two of them are in the game two of them are the matter of the game's creation well the slavery is kind of in there too you have sweat shops you can beat them you can put them on yeah that's these are the concept of yeah that's in the game you can put two of these things are meta things two of them are in the game and they're not even the real thing they're not you're not actually I I don't know if you could [ __ ] the pals or whatever uh but if uh but yeah it's not actually the thing itself yeah yeah I I get that the the BCL is more implied right like there's a specific pal that says that they don't want to sleep with hum I don't even know I don't care about any of that I don't that's that's the I thought we were talking strictly about people's sort of desire for fun or you know consuming products will overwrite any moral issue they have with the creation of said product I thought that was the thing that we were talking about CU those people exist but well they might be the the most common as well but it's not an absolute which is what seems to be said here the success P proves the only thing customers actually care about is a good game which is funny because I've seen a lot of people saying that PO wield isn't a good game like from the ground up is like designed like it's rushed and it's broken and yeah Mor arti you have [ __ ] taste in video gam take that you going to let baller get away with that well what I was about to say is that a good game could be a game you enjoy or could be a well-designed game or could be both I don't know sure yeah you know in this tweet and a little or a little in this tweet and then in the clip that we just saw I think what part of what's getting him into trouble is he's conflating nobody cares and it doesn't matter like he's sort of using those interchangeably I think there's a bit of a difference there like I'm there's a lot of people who like will buy iPhones but they're like aware of like apple sweat shops and they'll be like oh isn't that terrible one iPhone please yeah takeone a guy I bought a secondhand one from a person so that I didn't you know buy from Apple um right so so I think plenty of people would agree that a lot of people don't care about the means in which these um products are generated and they'll get the product anyway but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter I mean it's a problem we don't want sweat shops discussion but that that gives you guys the groundwork for his statements and now we get to see some people respond in to him and we can we can sort of check out if we think these people are reasonable or just furious for everyone saying that as Mingo just as an example as well this is literally a show that I think is a is pretty good show but some people won't watch it because they think that we're terrible horrible no good very bad people true um so they just won't watch the show and so that's just this is another example of that right a little reminder that a cherry-picked consensus of nobody cares doesn't make these things pretend problems they're real problems that people like him are simply too lazy and apathetic to care about there's a difference I consider that's the problem prend problem he's using the wrong words right you almost wish you could uh speak directly to Asma gold cuz you're like you don't mean this right cuz that would be crazy and then I feel like he'd be like no I don't mean that I mean this and you go right right right right right yeah okay cuz I don't think he thinks that nobody cares is like you know in isolation as a statement I I think it's not going to be that it's going to be something else um but again like this is the thing this is the internet so this is this what happens now with with responses and apathetic to car about there's a difference I consider Zach to be a pretty good colleague in this space and I really feel this would have done better with a lot more empathy towards artists he's right that most consumers only care about the end product and not the ethics associated with and the industry will proceed with AI no matter what I wish most people could understand when it comes to artists it's mostly their data that these models are trained with and I feel if we're to use AI without the morals weighing us down we have to fin da way to compensate or give attributions to those whose art has fed these neural networks AI can be used for a lot of cool things and even game development by reducing crunch in many ways but for now we have to look at what ways to properly credit those whose art is used without their consent to make these massive systems boy I I don't agree with this at all um so I again I don't think that consumers only care about in products I just think that in the vast vast majority of cases no product is ever going to cross that ethical line that most people probably have um oh like there's a there's a Zone a series of zones right like you can get but once you do this you can't knowing if if someone if someone buys shoes that were made by someone in a sweat shop on the other side of the world like no one feels good about doing that you know but a lot of people either don't think about it don't know about it or they're like eh it's like it doesn't really matter to me but if they knew that it was but but if it came out and it said yeah these are they're actually using slaves and they're being beaten and whipped and they're not paid at all and everything then yeah I think that company would actually die um well diamonds are proof that that doesn't Rags right like that's proof that it doesn't because a significant number of blood diamonds are on the market and and nobody cares and I'll give you a better example actually which is chocolate um nearly a 100% of all Cacao is farmed uh by child labor by nearly 100% of so if you're eating chocolate there is a nearly 100% chance that that bite of chocolate was farmed at some point by children it is just a fact wait is everyone still here is such a a quagmire of a philosophical discussion because it's very difficult to have a consumer who understands the complete information of production processes and ethical practices with companies right and even with that sort of increased awareness your individual Choice how much is it going to effect it's very difficult to get into that kind of a thing and I disagree with this because it's taking a fence sitting position that it's okay to steal but as long as you credit right like that's what he's saying here um it's a very complex thing with with personal ethical tradeoffs for how much you're willing to give uh into ethical consumerism Rags did you have anything on the diamond thing I don't know if the proximity to who the victims may or may not be um the fact that someone might be if if artist is if you if if an AI essentially steals from some artist you've never met on the internet and don't know about then it will be different than knowing that artist personally and having them come to you and say that you know they're really upset that they found some you know drawing image generator that clearly stole one of their images um or if or or if you were you know living down the street from or if you met the you know the sweat shop worker or the the slave or whatever it was but when you're so removed from everything it's just that I guess human tendency to be you know Le less empathetic with people who are really far far away from you that you've never met yeah yeah how local it is to you absolutely you know um if you have to go and choose every chicken that you're going to eat right every single time and then you have to watch it die it's a lot different than going to a supermarket right I think um what we're highlighting here is that there's a a lot of care the the word use of the word care has being used like a binary like people either care or they don't when it's way more complicated than that yes yeah everyone pretty much everyone cares to some degree it's just where that line is and how how it affects them and their do they care more than the consumption of the product yeah which is everyone's drawing a line differently for that we can go to streams on both ends well I guess it's just like you know because most consumers only care about the product it's like I guess I guess generally sure but like what are boycotts look like if not people a lot of people at the same time getting really uh worked up about a particular thing related to the product and then that manifesting in major ways commercially um I I guess it's it's it's just like what is what is the thing that people are focusing on and right now people are focused on AI so I don't know surely this response would mean it's like well I mean I I guess he would point to like well the game sold even though you were saying marotti that there's no there's no evidence that power world uses AI anything but like even if there was that it's like well the game sold really well um but then I guess you'd point to the flip side that there are people are really pissed off about the game and pissed off about I could totally see someone being like I ain't playing po wield uh if let's say well we could just make up a game since it doesn't apply to power wield apparently but a game that has copied everything from somewhere else someone could be like I am playing that on ethical grounds you could be like okay fair enough and then the next person might not you know like it it exists I'll give you a real world example that happened about a year ago uh actually was the the Harry Potter's game a lot of people did not want to engage with that because they don't want to enrich JK Rowling yeah but they also that felt like a strian effect situation like well I think power world is too power world is is probably going to be the best selling game of this year uh it has sold 10 million copies on Steam alone it's not including Xbox it's not including Game Pass it's probably the best selling game already of the so there's a good chance this is also stri sanding well I mean yeah yeah you well the thing is that this AI thing seems to be ill- founded for like pal will that's that's what I'm gathering cuz you can have the conversation regardless but it seems like a lot of people are saying that's that's [ __ ] about the and that steam would have removed it had had done that it's just a total misunderstanding it is it is Association guilt right it is people saying okay so the CEO at one point went to an AI conference and said that BuzzFeed could use AI to rip off uh Pokemon right oh clearly he did that then right the thing as well that it's because it's obviously inspired by Pokemon oh clearly and factor of course it is and it's intentionally so that's the whole marketing idea is that it's Pokemon with guns it's literally their marketing you know message is hey look Pokemon with guns but but it's it's Association that since he went to this thing it's like saying oh yeah I bought some Bitcoin once oh you're a crypto bro who's out there you know scamming nfts it's not the same thing you you are you are saying something you know here and people are are accusing you of guilt because of that right like literally Association um and there's nothing there's no evidence of that at all in this product so it's such a bad argument and and it's worse to see mudahar saying stuff like this because it's fence sitting argument what the PO like the second half of the TW right like you have to in order to have this you have to agree that the art is being being stolen without consent right like that has to be oh well I guess we are we talking about pal world or like in general when it comes he's not talking about power world right I well I guess so the thing is I don't know whether people agree or disagree on whether the the these models like being trained on art that exists now is stealing or if it's fair use I'm pretty sure that's a thing that people fight about a lot all the time yeah so yeah I don't I so it was like one has to make a decision on what they think is the case there and then of course whether or not if you know like whether or not there should be any change to the law in response to uh in response to this stuff being uh becoming more um prominent yeah which goes back to ethical consumerism right like is if it's legal is it ethical right like that's immediately a part of that conversation this is a quagmire of a discussion by the way we're not going to come up with an answer because there is no good answer yet this is one of those you know this this is currently being discussed we're figuring it all out it's a big old Society yes I think that's why this would be seen as fence sitting in the sense of it's like we need to make sure bad things don't happen that the good things do happen it's like yes yes I mean pretty much we don't really know what they are yet yeah we're just sort of observing again it's like part of the conversation is what are what are what are some of the outcomes that people can see and whether or not they're acceptable or unacceptable for instance the idea that many many many many many many artists could be losing employment in the future because of these tools is that is that a future that people are okay with or is that a future that people aren't okay with it's worth thinking about right in terms of figuring out well okay if that's the case then does there need to be any changes reflected in I guess like consumer mindsets or legislation or anything like that probably one of the karma responses uh compared to what we're about to see oh good he's literally correct you can be angry all you want but consumers don't care how the product is made they care about the product itself all our technology is made from an unethical Source yet here we are picking and choosing what to be angry about um such a 101's decision like that is super 101 right the idea that you can't possibly buy an what you were saying um purely ethical so [ __ ] it is not a great attitude yeah the I feel like we've already acknowledged and everyone does is like yeah we have limits and we are hypocritical like human beings but that that doesn't mean we throw it all out right yes yeah I mean here's the thing right like I I would really like to be able to buy a phone that doesn't have the potential of slavery or blood in my hands but I also need a phone because that's the modern world and I'm not going to go live in a a cave you know and eat just berries that's not going to be a thing that happens for me so I have to live within this ethical construct that we have and and part of that means that in order to have a mobile phone I have to accept that that mobile phone has blood on it right like that's part of the the the agreement that we have with Society is yes there's terrible things and we just got to [ __ ] well yeah we try to encourage everybody everybody tries to encourage everybody else to take even small strides and doing better things to make the world better place overall but that we simultaneously and advocacy and campaigns and boycotts and all those things are good parts of this yes yeah I I mean ethical consumptions like I feel like everybody does engage with it somewhat um you try and we try to encourage you don't eat dog that's that's the first step right like you don't go in there and just just just pick these because you you feel this and you refuse to make that that step right yeah I think uh if someone started with we only consume ethically then someone's like ah I've got you here here here and here you're inconsistent I feel like you can do the reverse which is we really only uh unethically consume and then someone could be like well no we we got you here here and here you've made choices that are exclusively for ethical reasons yes so I would say that uh it's a little bit more complicated than that so of just said so you have no point it's like yes that's that's what I said that's that yes you're right we have no point we has said nothing of value good job people often ask why games aren't considered art and I think this guy and a lot of the replies perfectly encapsulates part of it a lot of Gamers and the industry itself simply treat games as products to be consumed and nothing more they don't give a [ __ ] about art so with this this right here right he is unfortunately equating the two meanings of the word right games are art in the big kind of way that they are art uh and games are products that have literal art in them and there is a difference between those two meanings of the word [ __ ] art yeah there's like um if there was like a tree to represent all the different arguments happening at once maybe even words and all the different definitions that they have of them how this thing gets out of hand real quick yes cuz now we're saying that Asma gold is the Reon reason people don't consider games art which is like uh I'll never understand the cognitive dissonance someone must have to consistently complain about modern entertainment and then promote a technology that is specifically designed to produce Mass Market SL Dak well so that one oh jeez that that one's interesting to me as well because yeah like uh I assume hband much like we do would say you should support games that are not only good like in terms of just content or execution but also industry related stuff it's like that pick carefully with what companies you support and what creators you support and so it' be like well why care shouldn't you just go for whatever game is good quote unquote we would care about crunch if if we didn't there wouldn't be this whole thing of oh we don't want our our developers crunch we'd be saying no crunch we want more games quicklier well some people don't care about crunch which is some people think that [ __ ] it you have crunch I don't care get me my game which is uh another whole sub set of people I suppose it's just the uh I guess how much of this matters right if if the starting statement is that none of it matters Beyond how much you enjoy the thing it' be like wow not quite you know yeah consider we're not a world of humanists I'm sorry yeah I was uh I guess relating to the Tweet is this who was it who took the who was the game YouTuber who took the um raage Shadow Legends ad was it skillup or who was it I think Skil up is one people got in trouble for some like that right there's a couple of them yeah um but it's this gives me the similar energy to that of you can't [ __ ] and whine about how games are getting worse and how bad these companies are and all the layoffs and things like that and then also say well it's what it's it's only what you know gets bought that matters it's only the product that matters and then say I don't care I had fun with a game so who cares if it was you know generated with AI it's like you you got to pick one you can't straddle both of these things yes and it makes me wonder what you actually care about if you know that's how you're looking at it and it's very personal rightone said wait that was synthetic about it's like oh yes the M who argue that like modern gaming is a disaster but you should go play raid Shadow Legends he's a very ethical guy yeah tainment and then promote a technology that is specifically designed to produce Mass Market slop breaking Microsoft is laying off 1,900 people in its gaming division including Activision Blizzard just 3 months after closing its $69 billion acquisition Story coming shortly of layoffs Tech sector over the last couple years we also knew this one right with with Microsoft we knew this because they just bought uh 15 to 19,000 employees when they picked up activate and blizzard right like a 10% loss or even a 15% loss of of redundancy is probably to be expected I know not everybody in that was redundant but a lot of them are going to be HR and IT and things like that that frankly in a70 billion acquisition we knew about this a year and a half ago when it was announced there's gonna be I guess it's just that it coincides with uh with with a trend that's been occurring broadly across the industry and this one is the biggest right yeah so 5,000 or 6,000 people gone already this year yeah yeah well it's January and it's January right so already ,000 people have been laid off so this is a third of of all the people have been laid off in 20 uh 2024 um 2023 there was like 10,000 people so it's a big it's a big jump already to see this many people being laid off in the industry um but that being said in this particular case while it is almost certainly a part or rather a Confluence of the market as well there is this amount of redundancy that was expected and should have been expected and nobody should be surprised that people were laid off during this because it always happens in these Mega Acquisitions just a fact of how it works well yeah well well when you have companies operating independently they're prone to bloat you know like hiring too many people that they don't actually need and then all of a sudden you've got a big company that's overseeing everything assessing everything going hm we don't need you we don't need you right yeah and it makes sense urge can't imagine how it must feel to work at blizzard and have one of your biggest personalities trending yesterday saying artists don't matter only for you your friends to get laid off today the artist don't matter has now been taken as just a a statement of fact in general which is obviously I mean presumably yeah like I I presume that he believes that artists gam that he likes matter so what's interesting is um because I I've seen basically all of what as gold has to say about all of this it's very late into this whole discussion that he draws a distinction between personal value and market value and it's like which feels really like the word value you know like and matters these are careful with those words they can mean a lot of things they can mean a lot of things and depends on who you're talking to by the way these are all these are all some of the highest like tweets these that's why these been shown this this is all the cancellation quote unquote of asmin gold are all these tweets I think it's very interesting that we we see asmin gold being considered owned by Blizzard or even you know uh part of it just because he played wow a lot is he like a really prominent is he like the most prominent sort of uh I guess World of Warcraft related personality or big I mean he comes from blizzard games right like he's a a Hearthstone and wow player that's like what he did he comes from but this is in my mind the same as saying oh ninja he's speaking for epic because he played a lot of for he's he's a fan of blizzard right he's not taking payments or he wasn't an ex employe he probably does get paid for things I I I'm not going to even pretend to understand where but I'm sure he's been you know paid to go to bcon or something but he's not like by them he's not an employee I mean I don't know I'm just wondering yeah I've never yeah I've never known him to do people see asmin gold like that like he speaks for blizzard that seems strange apparently clarification on I didn't know if he had any connection to them beyond the fact he played their games I have no idea yeah none no clue coup people in chat said blizzard hate him so there you go in his filth consuming things that wouldn't exist without artists shits on artists shits on devs shits on Gamers probably shits on the floor in his J bear in mind this had like a 10,000 likes of the bedroom and still somehow people will say he's based anyways don't listen to me my opinion doesn't matter like the whole artist don't matter thing it's just like it's it's it got way out of control artists opinion don't matter I regret ever listening to his streams watching his YouTube videos every day for years on a side note it's funny how he shames wow devs for being lazy and then Praises all others for being lazy he can't keep his own opinions consistent um did he not keep it consistent or did he give nuan well so what's what's interesting is like he would have shamed wow being lazy like so if if this the context for this is that he's critical of Wow's like recent release and he sees evidence of lazy development versus someone's using AI which by the way not necessarily about power power will think of this as theoretical someone uses AI to create a game that he finds fantastic and they he finds out they made it in like two minutes I don't think he'd care that much even though technically speaking that person's more lazy than the one that did the work he didn't like I think that would be so sort of something he wanted to highlight about reality he says that a couple times he he's not trying to he believes all he's saying is stating what is true what what people actually do and say and think and feel not that he's uh well we we' talked about it before on the subject of like how much do people value the effort or lack thereof on a game that is being worked on and I've talked about it a lot cuz I find it a oh pardon me a really interesting quote it was in relation to Halo 2 which uh was Notorious in terms of uh crunch on that game and it was something that uh I'm paraphrasing but Jason Jones said it was something along the lines of they don't care you know they don't care if it took you 6 hours or if it took you six years and a gallon of blood um in relation to at the end of the day what people are invested in is the thing that you create um and obviously the things that you would add on to that is I think what you can see a lot of the time is that when people really like the thing that you made when they also see that you worked really hard on it that earns you points I mean you see it with rings all the time everybody talks about how hard they worked on that all the effort that went into crafting those films that people really care about that but then I think the the flip side would be if you made something that sucked and then you showed people that you had actually worked really hard on it that's not going to make them like it um they're still going to dislike it at the end of the day all of the work that you're putting into anything that you create the whole point of that work is it it's going to reflect in the final thing that you create the final piece that you create whether you know it's a game or a movie or anything like that that's what all the work is going into yeah um I we see this too as YouTubers maybe a little bit more closely right we can spend a thousand hours editing a video and it doesn't get any traction that doesn't mean that we earn you know we're owed views because we spent a thousand hours on this if the content is bad then the content is bad our control like discoverability and algorithm and stuff like that so genu could just be something that everyone's just not interested it's too nich you know just like right nobody wants to care listen to you talk about you know your favorite type of bread or whatever like that's just not something people are interested in they don't click and they don't watch uh and that doesn't mean that just because you put thousands of hours in that oh I spent 6,000 hours three years working 40 hours a week on this video that doesn't mean anything there is no minimum amount of hourly you know Worth or value I suppose that that gets added into something if you sit and and and stir a paint can for a thousand hours before you make a single Mark that's not a thousand hour painting that somebody should care about right yeah that's another interesting bit of uh crazy de on I would say like but I worked really hard sing stirring that paint for a thousand hours for no reason remember was watch I think it was the the one about the modern art one you remember that one um where he was talking about how there was like was it like a blank canvas or something or it was white and he was talking about like all the amount of effort that went into how difficult it would have been to make it look the way that it didn't and it's like yeah that's cool BR on it like yeah it does nothing for me anyway what's in the Next Room yeah and I guess um yeah but but at the same time it's it's um you know that there can be aspects of like the nature of how like for instance with um with uh Modern Warfare three right finding out that that was DLC that probably got well that got spun into a uh into a full game and then got made in a very short amount of time it's like well when people find that out you know that's going to contribute in some sense to their perspective on it in this case negatively yeah so like there's an artist name I'm sorry no you go ahead there's an artist named mandrian uh who is somewhat famous because he makes these uh color blocks with like black lines in between it you've probably seen them throughout your life they're you know somewhat famous obviously uh and part of the thing about them is that he makes these all very very perfect lines even though he didn't you know ostensibly use uh tape or anything like that and you can't see the paint brush marks uh The Strokes in the paint right so you get very close to them and you go wow you can't tell that this wasn't printed even though it was made you know 1920s or something like that um that doesn't I think matter necessarily to somebody who is just looking at it today on on you know a print or something like that they're either enjoying it or they're not and and I think that's maybe a a good analog for how very little that kind of stuff matter well it's really [ __ ] hard to solve a lot of this ultimately um I've already seen someone say like no matter how much you spend on a thing doesn't give it intrinsic value as as though anybody believes that is necessarily true I thinking just I just had a thought for a while like intrinsic what does that even necessarily mean and what can it mean what would a bunch of people interpret that you mean would you use it um the one that's on screen right now this is evidence to me this like many people's feelings are being hurt and many people's fundamental identities in relation to their fundamental beliefs are being shaken I think that also explains how angry people in chat are like try not to uh fall into that trap all right everybody we're chill we're just having a chill out just just calm down seen a lot of people caps lock in a lot of people using liar like before establishing what they pointed it's like you got to calm down just having in a chat I knew as soon as I saw it I told you as soon as I saw what this title was I knew I was going to make people mad today oh you can't not make people mad on this one but I find it kind of yeah what I'm fascinated by I suppose is uh a bit of the human nature going on here like um CN asmin Gold's quote is just just like that's awkwardly cut at the beginning to the point where I can't even start you know understanding what he's saying and then he says something that I'm like no way he meant the crazier thing and then I find out obviously he doesn't mean the crazier thing and then of course everyone is like it's it's we're getting a bit of telephone happening where someone the previous tweet said he said that artists don't matter like what just in general like like if you become an artist you stop mattering he talks about him like that don't [ __ ] matter jeez I just agree I don't think so um and maybe it's because I have the benefit of having seen him talk more about his perspective so maybe you'll change your mind maybe what I've seen it seems right now dismissive and yeah I'm just lost yeah yeah to be fair you should be you should be lost because this this is the experience of watching someone get like all kind of [ __ ] said about them it feels like I've been dropped into the middle of a conversation that's been G for a while how have so many people missed the fact that asmin saying artist opinions don't matter is in a business sense the average consumer will not care about artists views on a game they enjoy I do see this meaning that artists opinions don't matter in general um you know people did get mad when Martin scori an artist expressed his opinion on the nature of Marvel movies yeah in both directions they did they did care and it now whether or not it had an actual like business impact well maybe it did I don't know cuz like movies have started to fail now though I mean obviously there's a variety of explanations for that but I mean that would be an example of while an artist's opinion I mean it did matter everybody was talking about it for ages and it may well have uh had an impact um and I think that uh this is so very complicated because artist opinions don't matter in a business sense like so you're saying that like any any old artist's opinion about the state of the art in terms of its production or quality doesn't really matter to how much it sells it's like like but it does though even if in a small way it totally would create all a huge way because it's their opinion and their taste that creates the thing that people buy I mean it's it's like necessary yeah there are all kinds of like like I mean just fundamental recommendations for all of us on on YouTube to people is is why certain things are seen or understood right and so at this point I'm just curious where a line is drawn between artist opinions don't matter in a business sense compared to that is what that so if someone said like all the matters is the people who's consuming its opinion and it's like okay so whose opinion can potentially be influenced by what they hear from other people and they could could be an artist they could be the one that made it could yeah exactly this such a stupid thing though because I don't think that's what asmin gold was even saying right like he he was saying that once the product is finished uh um the finished product the only thing that matters to to its uh ability to sell is whether people want to buy it is not I think a controversial opinion everybody else is saying oh but artists I'd say a big gutshot to this too is the several times we've had evidence of fundamental big creators who've made a thing getting swayed by either individuals or then eventually public opinion of their creation so for example the recent one with uh James summon right like he nuked his entire experience on the internet because one person's Channel claimed and with proof said that he was creating his artwork or his expression in an unethical way and then everyone found out and then he ran away cuz he was like holy [ __ ] you You' discovered my my immorality and to an extent then you have um artists that will switch up as they go along like with their work because of different people's individual opinions spreading out more so about the thing whether or not the thing itself is good or fun and and and that's the thing I broadly uh agree that most people just consume and I don't even want to I'm not even trying to frame that as a negative right now that would be for a different conversation but the people have more pressing concerns in their life but the uh when you know certain things about so for example um someone T took a lot of meaning from a James summon video and then someone says you know he didn't work very hard on that he actually wrote that in like a half hour that might make you think he's more impressive like holy [ __ ] he did that that quickly but then when you find out it's like well no he copied it from someone in half an hour like oh so now my appreciation for him as an artist through the the work itself is it belongs to someone else not him and I actually think that starts to hit on the fundamental issue for a lot of people with AI art MH like uh they want they want a source to appreciate for their new found you know meaning whatever and it's like it doesn't belong to any individual especially when you talk about the idea of it being paired with uh talent and hard work and years and years and years and years of practice and training I'm I'm going to like throw it right out into the weeds I don't necessarily think that just because you know uh uh you know that James Summerton for example copied that that you can't still get value out of it oh absolutely as as an audience right like I even knowing that thieves have yeah they it's stolen but to them yeah the big change wouldn't be that they no longer like the video they might not like the video but like they may not they may sound I'm meaning it but that now it won't be James summon that's responsible for that it'll be the person he stole it from they will rather attribute it to them but that doesn't necessarily have to change how you feel about what you got from it right like if if I am a huge fan of an author and then it turns out that uh you know we find out 10 years after I've read every book they wrote that um they stole all of it from someone else I don't think that that necessarily changes the the value that I got out of it right like I would have read the words from any author no I don't necessarily disagree with that and obviously that's going to be different for everybody I'd say this is exactly how I imagined entitled consumers would view the AI stuff because to them it's all about if they get their fun little art fix no thanks for the many people behind the media they depend on we are a means to an end you're a shitty person if you feel this way okay but but like you're working as an artist right like you're getting paid to make Commercial Art at the same time I oh I just agree this is I think this is sort of poorly worded but I think the idea at the core of it I agree with uh there needs to be a I think people need to remember that the content that they consume often for free or for virtually free has to come from somewhere people have to work on it it has to be made it has to take a a level of talent and skill and oftentimes passion and a lot of people take that for granted they don't think about all the things that go into to making the stuff that they consume without a second thought um we don't want to foster a world where people devalue the talents that people hone and train and learn to do especially if that stuff is stuff that you can't do and I think a lot of this uh will be because we do tend to want people to know where the thing they love comes from uh we want that information ourselves sometimes right like if we if we enjoy a particular piece of artwork and all of them have the same signature I'm like who even is this person cuz the or you realize like seven of your favorite films are all from the same director and you didn't even notice that cuz you were too young at first to like care about it or something and and there's like a sense of oh wow that that you get to appreciate that person's Talent sort of thing but that the reality is most people I think uh RX kind of mentioned this recently like the the um most people with most things in life on going through understanding everything about where it came from or how it works or who made it it does ser a function saying and go wow isn't it crazy that I can get basically any food that I could ever want at my at like my convenience and then store it in a refrigerator to consume it my convenience you're not often thinking about about this you need to have some perspective of how good you have it to be able to do that um yeah how often the tap and go wow Plumbing that's pretty cool yeah just just remember how good your life is I've had that thought every once in a while here and there yeah but it's not every day right pretty much all of us we we [ __ ] in purified water oh yeah like that's how insanely good our lives are the stuff that people would kill for back in the day we literally use it to [ __ ] in and flush away into the sewer um I have two thought experiments for the chat right because I think this will help them kind of determined some of this stuff um first what if the Mona Lisa is in fact a forgery right there's there's a lot of questions about whether or not it was stolen and and uh the one that is currently in the Lou is a forgery and how would that affect the sort of effect of the Mona Lisa and does it right is seeing the Mona Lisa knowing that that is in fact not D Vinci's original but a four gr does that change the effect of the mon and then I'll throw another one out which is what about the Star Trek replicator and food right if the Star Trek replicator is able to exist in our current world and we can create any food and it can taste like whatever and you can have whatever does that devalue the value of that I think those are are two good uh sort of beginning um thought exercises for this very cont well yeah in regards to the first one um yeah it would uh I wouldn't go see it if it was a forgery um because if I was going there it would probably to be for the historical element of you know seeing Da Vinci himself's works so if it was a forgery then it's like it's nice painting but I kind of came here for that historical you know element um and as for the the value of food stuff I mean obviously the value does in one in one sense it doesn't change and in one sense it's immensely devalued it doesn't change in the sense of uh like I still need like it's still precious in the sense that I need to eat to live but also it's so easy to get that thing I need it's basically just like oxygen at this point like yeah oxygen is precious but it's everywhere so like it's both precious and not precious at the same time you know yeah it's I don't have an answer for these right like these aren't something it's very much just this is beginning level thinking about this kind of stuff sure because I would argue personally that knowing that it is a forgery um would change it but we'll never know right we'll never know if that is a forgery I don't think that the effect of if I knew myself personally I'm the only person in the world who's like yeah I know that B I don't think that would change the effect that the mon Lisa has had on the I don't think it would change but I guess like what rag said it would for him so sure no no 100% I understand and I think it would for me too right I just don't have an answer that's a definitive answer for either well so well I don't go ahead yeah no no no go for it you speak less than I do so you go well now look right it my mind now okay um um I can't remember yeah go so I was going to say as the third hypothetical if uh if we found out the uh Lord of the Rings was actually written by a complicated AI in the year 3033 uh and it was sent back in time and dropped on token's desk and he decid decided to just own that it was him that wrote it what does that do feel perception of Lord the Rings and I'd be like I don't think it changes much of anything about how much meaning I get out of the story however it does but changeed my perception of talking yes and I think that's that's a a super cool concept right there to to play around with right A lot of people don't sort of inspect their own thoughts on these uh to the depth that I think you should because this is not a a surface level discussion unfortunately well I would say on this one you gota you got to go deep on this one uh this one is really starting to sort of speak to an address pretty fundamental yes questions about uh about Humanity you know yeah what is human for all the people that just said that's ridiculous hypothetical why are you even here yeah I don't think you might not have the mental capacity to engage with really this should be called every frame of hypothetical because we love hypothetical hpe they're great and they're super helpful and useful for figuring out what you actually believe yeah whatap where there was no hypotheticals then I mean I would probably feel I don't think I could recognize what that is without hypotheticals um what I was going to say is that I think um I I think we really we really value our capacity to be creative as people which I think makes a lot of sense cuz I think it's it's it's something that you could point to as a very clear thing that seems to distinguish us from basically every other living thing on this planet as our capacity for creativity and so this starts to um you know this this topic starts to kind of challenge that in ways that are um and so I think that's the reason why it's like yeah you got to you got to go deep on this one and sort of start to figure out what you fundamentally believe about the nature of like human expression and everything discuss been for years well and this as far as I'm concerned is only the beginning this is going to this is going to go on for a long time now because technolog is that far along it's been going on for a long time right since the what is it the uh the print machine came out right whoa It's not being written by people like there are there's been Concepts about this forever and ever and what is the value of the human soul and how much you know value does an artist actually have back in the 1700s there there's a lot of discussion about it has happened for hundreds of years I don't think we're going to come to an answer anytime soon oh I mean I don't I don't expect that everybody's gonna that everybody in the world is going to reach a consensus like yeah we figured out the Human Condition guys we got it now pack on EAP we figured it out in different ways the conversation's been going on I mean pretty much since we first emerged you know we should we should a thing where every artist in the world just doesn't post for like a year and see how cooked the entire industry gets since apparently the difference isn't substantial that's a uh that's a fascinating sort of thought experiment isn't it be happen I wonder if everybody would be more inclined creatively after that experience of not having it provided you know oh man how many people would come out and become artists right like you'd create a whole new generation of artists that were operating in the I want to see this and it doesn't exist right the same reason why I started creating YouTube videos I want to make this thing you'd see all of that it it would create a whole new cottage industry of the same industry again having a [ __ ] John Walker moment here someone in chat just said like you should try putting like potential years of your life into a project just to have a pretentious neck beard tell you you don't matter it's like I could do you one better than that I've spent like five or six years on my career and I have people telling me I should be killed so like I think I can talk about that yeah sure at least you matter enough to be killed yay the video game industry as a whole is so cooked with how brain dead stupid consumers are Jesus Christ well this does just you know this this could just be true anyway it doesn't it could be true I was about to say no many stupid consumers are Jesus Christ but then I was like oh yeah because I was just listening to it and I was like what what mhm I have to perceive a different Owen so this this good all this is a guest spot we got uh it's a gundam's point of view which fair warning he's not uh I saw some people in chat say apparently he's had conflict with Asin gold in the past so don't expect this to be kind is all I'm going to say difference I consider substantial and I do not consider the I adore his uh his little one punch man V2 thing so substantial do you guys no right no and he duning on him if it was you remember when Dunkey watched us on EAP and pretended to be a falling asleep yes it's the best cont is he duning us is he duning asmin gold that's just the the the he's he's staring and he's getting progressively more Angry he's uh okay you can kind of see it there that pause can you see that yeah I can see it here for just a second though I was like oh he's doing a Dunkey I forgot about that made with AI I'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence is that doesn't matter nobody really cares the lead developer has been very POS and like not a great standard things are fine if they're fun probably not yeah that's what I was getting at without without context a line like that is weird like I don't care as long as it's fun it's like oh bad there's going to be a lot right well there a lot of scenarios where that just wouldn't be the case like you'd be enjoying a thing but as soon as you you know what I think if everybody were forced to kill the animals they eat in the world that we would have a dramatic decrease of it wouldn't wouldn't be completely there' be plenty people who be fine with it plenty people who don't even have an ethical issue with it whatsoever but I think there's so many people that couldn't bring themselves to do it that it would then curb a lot of uh meat eaters as a result yeah especially if you start doing like friendlier animals like a cow right imagine looking into a cow's eye and then bolting it in the brain that would change a lot of people's yeah a lot of people just wouldn't be able to do it and so the it would it would change the amount of meat eaters in general um and that that it's like so what is that evidence of it's like I'm not exactly sure but I imagine it's to do with uh the proximity to the creation of the thing that you're enjoying I guess MH positive about AI in the past and made an AI game wait someone said Mo as a vegan that's disappointing you're not a vegan I'm not a vegan either I mean that that is disappointing scum but you're not a vegan how can I be this high energy if I a vegan that's B come on called AI art impostor that let an AI artist draw a picture and so that that was like like one of the games we're we're going to be playing this this week yes just generally has been much more uh positive about some of the benefits of AI rather than what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know I guess General uh Twitter population which is that you know AI is bad and it takes jobs from people capacity for AI investment we have to make tough choices and so for some teams that means removing layers uh so this is an argument we haven't really covered much yet it might come up more just the the introduction of AI kills of the jobs speak the corporate speak removing layers to simplify execution to drive velocity people fire people B write your [ __ ] it's like okay it's just fire people that's what it means but in less uh in you don't have to pay robots different words but synergizing our future opportunities yeah we've not really gone over that the obvious like the fight in that one is the jobs are always uh crunched down I think moral was talking about that a bit earlier but that's not really the focus of what we're talking about to simplify execution and drive velocity so Tyler over the last few years higher interest rates the efficiency drive that was the cover for layoffs or the reason however you want to look at it Ai and the sentiment and that was a that's in gundam's stuff okay yeah I was he's throwing that in there in his video right news from artists artists opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because what matters is the opinion look at his eyes list any of the edits you see are all Gundams okay not mind his eyes the people that are buying the product by your opinion I love these little guys all right they're great they're soy ja are funny I love those that W Jackson just like rage comics' second arrival or second coming I guess remember rage com second gen yeah like just because you do it doesn't nobody cares like it it's not sounds like this it feels like the person says this must not have never made anything you know no I I don't buy that I think that the clip is [ __ ] I think the uh this it's obviously clunky as [ __ ] it just made to sound like he thinks that all artists don't matter which is obviously not his take I mean if he's made a big old response video that'll be like a more the enlightening that'll be a place to look at to see what he thinks when he can present it you know coherently and at length and I haven't heard anything yet right like I'm taking it off a mer here that he does in fact not mean that he's GNA he's going to make his position clear yeah because obviously well because he didn't it's it's something that Destiny has said many others that they don't they don't have like 10-minute conversations with the assumption that they're going to be clipped out with every single 30 seconds that pass yeah yeah I'm sure you could take a lot of the things that I've said in this stream and make me to be either an AI advocate or uh somebody who despises it either way probably it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well-respected and and really respectable uh directors talks about how bad Marvel isut oh come on bro okay get him get him out of here get him out of here the dude who literally looks like a pedophile and lives like one is going to take a [ __ ] on Martin Scorsese not on my watch that was a doit opinion from just to be clear um yeah we we we've we've been historically very against it however the the key information as far as I'm concerned is I would love to hear more from him because the vagueness of it's not Cinema actually I think just hurts the whole conversation well but it's really awkward it wasn't vague it was a whole article that he wrote well you're talking about the many different weird quotes about where he talked about like franchise or whatever and some other words that we were just well I guess that's what I'm saying is it's like the article wasn't like that it was still confusing and bizarre well this is this is again a part of the telephone it sounds like now that asman gold is poised against scosi about whether or not Marvel is any good it's like no this is we're missing loads of layers of like What's Happening Here CU like you know the those two don't even they don't fighting at all and then the quotes from sces AR even the things that associated with how everyone thinks Marvel's falling apart like I don't even think he would say publicly that the Marvels is a terrible film he probably say it's not Cinema though which he I don't think it's fair to say scors is calling these movies [ __ ] I think he's essentially calling them theme park rid I wish he would call them [ __ ] I think that's a better argument than saying they're not Cinema well they are now but I don't think they're I mean there's some there's a lot of good Marvel movies actually I mean none of them are cinem the ones but but that's kind of the problem is he just doesn't want all of Cinema to devolve into nothing but Marvel movies which I can totally understand sure but he said they're not Cinema yeah which I are no yeah I see what you mean yeah yeah yeah right they're films you know they are just say that they're not good I would prer that that'd be way more based if he said that they were they were crap they're not even films they're not even movies yeah you can't even see them the artist opinion doesn't matter says the person who's never created art we live in a day and age where no mediocre streams are artart yeah but the problem is that we that's the conversation that also needs to be involved as guys people making YouTube videos right it involves creativity it does well this is this just spice everywhere and anger and fury and it's like all right you know there's a lot of stuff here there someone who spent their entire life living in a cave like a bogglin playing World of Warcraft is a mass enough following to where people thinks he has good takes or great ideas well and as gold brings this up at one point but it's just like people always reference my shitty looking room whatever they disagree with me and it's like yeah I guess yeah and even says that's just to be expected that's that's what people do clean your [ __ ] room can't you it's totally unrelated but no has nothing to do room is dirty [ __ ] harm right yes I think so um only if you use that in place of an argument if you do an argument and then call him a nasty boglin who lives in filth then that's that's he knows he knows what he's doing right I mean it's obviously for Laughs to well because Gundam Prett to the argument but no nutrition he's offended by the the the sentiment as he believes Asma gold means it which it would be curious to hear them talk um be interested to see what would happen bro like [ __ ] I was up late last night so here we are his clarification and I was reading some of the posts about myself your [ __ ] dragul is in the background it goes away soon though obviously and uh some people [Music] are [ __ ] pissed oh we we [ __ ] got partially taken do you remember like the stream gets paused when you play music for just too long yeah like I feel like I made people more mad today than I have in probably like a month I am yeah yeah we'll be fine one controversy away from a villain Arc which by the way is is said as a joke but is actually true with how things just work on the internet if you get enough controversies in a row you'll just be seen as Satan like uh you need to stretch them out one per year you'll be right yeah every once in a while the artist comment yeah yeah like I didn't even think that was a big deal right I mean I didn't I thought everybody knew that I did I thought everybody knew that what I was saying was true apparently not guys of course nobody likes for people to tell them that they're wrong but this this doesn't [ __ ] matter it's a [ __ ] tweet who cares chill out everything's [ __ ] fine like I I made a i i which just a good attitude by the way just uh a lot of people need to better understand and this probably should be taught at this point what uh what it means well even when you have because he's having this reaction when he's got thousands tens of thousands up to millions of people watching him getting like you know roasted and he's like doesn't matter it's fine if more people had that perspective I feel like we'd be better people would be better off stronger as a result because yeah probably yeah like the the perception that you know millions of people are just telling you you're worthless can do a lot to your your brain it's about how you conceptualize it I suppose they said this on a public platform now this dip [ __ ] did cut it a little a little bit out of context but that's what people do expect me to draw a moral line I have to perceive a difference that I consider substantial and I do not consider the difference substantial I was talking about the difference between procedural generation and uh AI uh generation like generative AI I feel like they both functionally do the same thing and I don't see there being a large moral difference between the two things uh AI generation versus procedural generation which is interesting to bring up about I don't know the technical difference between them it's a it's it's an like yeah it's an interesting con I've never thought about that not once that's a good it's a good thought it's it's something just consider because it could all be on a you know a scale well um it's probably something that's worth talking about in terms of it's not like AI art is brand new if you start to think about like so for instance water simulation dag fall use procedural generation for its world oh well I the the example I was thinking about is like simulation in video games and um and and movies right so like if you have water simulation it's not like it that's Guided by a computer it's curated and guided and obviously the software was created by a person and it's curated by a person but it's not like a person is individually animating each of those waves or like the reactions to like if a you know play character oh animators were individually animating frame by frame every bit of Sully's uh fur that would have been Guided by a computer um and so that's like that's computer generated uh curated by a person MH and driven by software created by a person well this actually reminds me of um it's going to annoy me chat you'll know who's the guy who made well FR you might know who's the guy who made ASDF movie Tom something Tom he made a video semi- recently on plagiarism uh it's a really cool video It's called Tom sca's guide to plagiarism um this video is sponsor he has a scale in here and I I don't know if he has it in a way that's easily readable but it's um it's about the how things it's like 10 slots on the plagiarism scale and he he actually sort of implies that they actually out to be a circle uh you know you start with the original thing and then you the lowest version of it is the fact that you would have seen or heard of it and then later on in your life you do a thing that's kind of got a piece of it in there maybe and then it moves on to uh you you copy it kind of but you didn't even know where it had come from that you you've taken a piece out of the thing and then he and he goes on until he gets all the way back around to literally copying the thing and reselling it as your own thing which he said like that kind of Loops you back around to the original creation um but the he like draws a line at one point where we we at one point cross over from ethical to unethical and it's really hard to exactly explain where and how it happens um and I feel the same thing is happening with uh computer assisted like autistic Works where exactly is the line yeah and uh that's going to be talked about for a long time I imagine and I also talked about it in the context of people copying so like for example like you saw like the uh the parallels between like the Pokemon and the Dragon Quest and you know Pokemon and Digimon like I don't view there to be like a large moral difference between an artist using other art as inspiration or to basically create something that's another version of what the original artist made I don't view that as a tremendously morally different thing versus generative AI creating a a uh an aggregate of art by using a million pictures yeah so this is another like fundamental position that a lot of people opt for which is that what is the difference between a computer that collects a billion pictures and a person who's seen a billion things in their lives and they both generate an image um and that's not person right well it's uh it's really complicated I think that it's totally fine for someone to say I'm not sure about this like uh because there's a lot to think about I'd like him to drill down a bit more on here he throws that word tremendously in there and it's just like okay so you don't think there there's a tremendous difference but is there some difference or you actually saying there's no difference like what exactly are you saying yeah yeah I I think it's that difference right like it's the difference between whether you're saying there's no difference or there's a great difference that is where we're all going to end up on this spectrum um well again I think this is another one that starts to drill into some pretty fundamental you know fundamental questions about I guess how you Perce ceive like human consciousness cuz I I imagine the argument you know the argument one way would be well there's a difference between an AI algorithm that is I like pulling directly from images that exist compared to you look at it goes through your brain and then translates to whatever you're doing on you know piece of paper on a computer my emotional state what is my personal history of things what's my my mood and what are the things that has you know influenced me to get here and then I remember the people that I've talked to and the things that they might like and yep it seems like a I mean not to be like like obviously it's a more human process but um I feel I don't know enough about the technicality of how the the AI does it on like a coding level but I but if it's just an element of these are all of these images therefore the pixels will be here and that's all that goes into it and it's like well I feel like we've really lost the soul of what inspiration is but even in that right you're using words like Soul right it's it's definitely um it's a a quagmire of a discussion are you suggesting that Rags is appealing to something that can't even be nailed down so we can't even argue against it is that what you're saying I mean I'm I'm not I'm not using soul in a in a literal sense but uh more like a h humanity and human process sort of sense um I I suspect that that's the essence of his position that people don't like is that he doesn't see a difference between a person looking at other people's art getting inspiration and creating something new and an AI algorithm doing the same thing like looking at other people's art and and spitting out something that's like a mix of everything like he just equivocates both of them well the question for Rags though if with that Lord the Rings example then you would have thought Lord the Rings has a lot of soul in it but if it turned out there was zero in the sense that a robot made it what like what does that mean for your um point of view I don't know I guess I probably feel pretty deflated but I'm not sure like I would value it like I could I would value it a whole lot less but I don't know exactly like knowing that all of the work and stuff like just to be clear what the example of uh the example was it was a movie that was made in a different time and then it was time traveled back and given to tolken the book yeah oh then I guess then I guess it would shift to my appreciations for and that's all that would change oh sure but the you were saying like you know there's no soul and a lot of work that's created by a robot or whatever and it's like well if there's a work that you do believe soul is in and then someone reveals as like actually that was a robot that made it um in this case being AI like you know procedural generation or whatever this this is the thing right on The Human Side of it the idea of there being a spark uh something divine right that an AI could not possibly replicate and so therefore you cannot just equivocate the AI process of you know amalgamating stuff and spitting out something as opposed to a human doing it you know it could be a fundamental disagreement that's kind of like impossible to bridge the gap on depending on what you believe about whether or not there's something like know someone could argue like I'm holding on to human generation of content because I just believe that is one of the best signifiers for creating withth while meaningful art even if a machine could trick me even if a human can create soulless things I don't care I'm just I'm just saying that it's a good thing to hang on to like someone could say that like I I guess I understand I just and I guess also for clarification like if we had Advanced like Androids that were like decer replicants or uh because Decker was a replicant and or like data from you why would you do that that's going to become I have what do you mean I was just talking about data and I was talking about just for clarification I don't know what you talk about so what I was t uh but like those like those really complex like Androids that I would consider people you know that would be different from like just just a just a robot algorithm that just rearranges pixels based off of learning from images right I think you get if it's it's not necessarily that it's not non-human but I don't think we're at the you know Point are you arguing that it requires some level of I guess sapience in personhood I feel right if we're talking about like a like a replicant right it is a robot it's a machine that is you know uh not thinking of things necessarily right a replicant is replicants are people are they I would say I would I mean I specifically used the example to cut through I assume ra the reason Rax chose them was he assumed everyone is on board with considering replicants as people you can choose whatever fiction you want I assume about synthetic people data example right but what I mean is that what is the difference in that case right between a a fake brain that is coming up with it and a robot machine server that's coming up I think that a I think that a synthetic person would essentially I think that part of what would make them a person would be the ability to have you know memories and experiences and emotional states and things that would probably be something I guess you could create um a a brain like device where it's a it's like it's an entity that doesn't have emotions or any of these things where but here's the thing you remember an ex marer how would you know whether or not they're having those auen experience you don't need to we can move past the movie but how do you know like let's say you were talking to a robot that was acting a lot like a person how would you ever know if they were having the authentic experience of any of the things that they say to you or if they were presenting that to you to convince you that they were a person yes that's is there a distinction there or is that a distinction without a difference um I'm not sure how I would know I'd have to think about it I'd have to maybe learn more about how they were made and how they respond things and what they do but I'm not sure I a lot of people saying like raford so it's like well s takes the position of um you already agree that the creatures in there are mostly human but we're presented with the reality of knowing they are not human at least not in the sense of the body right like the the opening quote being um the reality is that which when you stop believing in it doesn't go away meaning that you believe you're human and the game is like you're not human though and you're like but I am though okay it's interesting right because I've seen some products of like AI generated stuff where I'm just like you know it's amazing it's like oh it's almost like this thing is thinking but then you like skim over the source code and then it's just like oh okay it it does basically boil down to a bunch of logic logic switches like if statements and four loops and while Loops that are all nested within each other and it's just running through a process but then it's like well can you could you think of the human brain as the same way where it's all just electrical impulses and we're all BAS basically doing the same thing where it's like if this condition is true and that condition is true I'm going to do this thing and that thing right now you're touching on that point you you're going to trigger the people in chat very much like humans are valuable for what they are they're unique they special they're amazing that is the question is a human valuable right because like is it the wetwear people are nice to Alexa too right people treat Alexa like it's got some sort of emotions and they say please and thank you to um so just be being how we treat these things doesn't matter and if it's a a computer right and it's not a human being and you're saying that the the spark of creation requires a human being's uh quote Soul right like and I know you didn't mean it in that way but um then how can you say that that any robot could ever replicate that even if it was a very very good replication of it right at what point the that that's the question right at what point does it become this is something only a human being can do and that is valuable uh John just perfectly illustrating uh what's probably happened to asmin Gold because if someone clipped you as just saying is a human valuable that alone soone could be like so John just hates people I guess just like no all the [ __ ] that was just said before because there's even people in chat being like what the [ __ ] are humans valuable like if you're not listened then come on G some jump into conclusions I hate humans I'm like a super villain I feel like all it's kind of it's like oh [ __ ] how how far do we have to like actually start going in terms of like fundamental perceptions about you know what is our nature like what is the nature of our Consciousness if you want to get to like the root of questions relating to AI yes um like yeah it it you know look right it's uh it's a it's a deep rabbit okay it's you start talking about like cism and stuff like that do you actually think cism is that how you pronounce say your world I guess that's how I mispronounce it for you know what I I I I I'm not gonna but anyway continue so your weird ass words it's a question of whether or not you know how do you prove other people are conscious how do you believe they're thinking and things like that am I real are you real that kind of stuff yeah you're getting right into the very depth of of uh you know philosophy how do we know stuff yeah that's the fundamental question of reality I think I know back to as and go yeah anyway like these are that different and I haven't read an argument that makes me believe that I'm wrong I'm open to reading one but I haven't found it yet original ART versus inspirational art I care about that because I don't believe original art generally exists I think that almost all art is built off of other art and that doesn't so it's like so just let's just get rid of the word or well well I mean but the statement like olot is derivative it's like to some extent there's always going to be inspiration stemming from things that you've seen before and we still all agree that you should not be able to copy one toone someone else's thing and use it for your own benefit like you're like no can't do that hi hi I just you for a second oh I was saying that um we we we all seem to agree that uh you can't copy someone's thing one for one and present it as your own so everyone draws a line at least there nobody says like well come on everything's iterative it's like like I don't know about that yeah do you think that if you trace a piece of art and add a hat to it that it is new well just a point is someone said like no one's arguing for that it's like that's my point no one's arguing for that which means there is a line and uh I'd love if po world was just all the original Pokemon with his hats on with hat yes but I mean in terms of the like you know artists are inspired by artists who came before them and before them and so on and so forth there's a level of uh there's a level of you are going to be pulling from things that you've seen before and your own experiences which is you know that's what people would say is like the uniqueness right of any individual person is they're not only the things that they've seen before that they're interested in but paired with their perspective and their experiences and that it's like those combinations together right is what creates the new piece of work take away from it it builds on it it makes it more special it makes it better maybe you should say can make it better not does make it better but I don't know maybe not better but sometimes it adds texture to it all art is derivative yes and I I don't think that that's not a bad thing anyway so that's what I was talking about in the clip we'll keep going do you guys no right no and that's really what matters I don't think a lot of people do and the truth is that I don't think that Society at large sees a large difference the reason why I don't think that people see a large difference is that I've never seen a large scale consumer shift to where consumers are purchasing something that is more inconvenient or more expensive because of the way that it's produced organic foods or yeah yeah like literally it's but yeah the first example I said earlier like organic foods are literally that thing I'm sorry never to a supermarket Rags he's got to address organic foods he's obviously been to a supermarket just cuz he lives like a goblin doesn't mean that goblins don't go to super this person has never no he's a caveman he's this is madness hey we were all came from caveman they're cool guys they worked real hard derivative of cavemen but he's gonna start responding to like people in chat and someone going to bring up organic foods and it's interesting because a lot of people are presenting counters in chat that asmin gold would not agree with he comes up with a different counter now some people do this I'm not arguing that nobody does this but the biggest companies in the world are often times the most immoral ones and I I think that there's a reason for that it's because people don't really care where their products come from now to be clear he's not saying that this is ethical he's saying that people don't care right no he's just making observation generalized statement that can be seen as agreeable if he was to concede sure there are people who still do it's just that generally people don't care and I think he he does defend it this way and so would we that most people shouldn't have to care because of the amount of pressures they've got in other departments in their lives you know it's not like we're all Angels people can't worry about every single bad thing in the world all the time otherwise they couldn't do anything yeah you'd be a you would be incapable of functioning if your empathy for your close friends and family extended to every human on the planet you would just not be able to function well um you know the glibs Highlight in slavery it's like there was a civil war thought about that was there not it's like well wait the proximity argument would come up again uh which I do think is important to consider that if if you if you went to a store and where you pick up the thing that you want to buy literally just a glass pane between you and the child mining the things needed for it I think people would would probably change their mind a bit uh yeah if you're seeing them being whipped and under yeah yeah I yeah like nobody really cares about Amazon work well and so that's why I think it is it is unwise to ref do nobody cares it's more complicated but that is that's that's English forew I think workers pissing in bottles you care about it but would you want to pay twice as much for Amazon Prime to fix it there's a future H reps said about this I mean for quite liked in the new season yeah that was one of the uh Stronger episodes of that I think the ending is Amazon engulfs the universe and they say yeah but it's so convenient yeah second way to summarize it no probably not and the same thing's true with phone batteries the same things same thing is true with uh electronic car batteries the same thing is true with clothes and everybody just foros morality to participate in these things and I do not believe this is a you criticize Society but yet you exist in society how how interesting right that Meme oh that's stupid meme I think that might be one of my most hated memes in history yeah yeah I love the counter memes for it they're way better with the King covered in Gold it's like yet you participate King Homer yeah take a hike boss I'm now all hail King [Laughter] Homer that and also I think that that's very valid that's an extremely valid thing to say if you want to hold other people to a standard you should expect other people to hold you to that standard that you are trying to hold them to why does everybody else have to carry your flag and so that's that's my point I suppose to an extent though that is normal behavior isn't it that if you have a set of values you would want other people to have them because you think they're the right ones just like a you know you don't want to go too far but same most people do tend to try and [ __ ] what they think is the right thing to do we wouldn't have political discussions without it we wouldn't have you wouldn't be here well and I'm trying to I'm trying to meet him on his level of like you know people on Twitter being like you should carry my Flags like it can be annoying but at the same time I think that's that's normal human behavior just being like yeah and so I don't think that consumers really care about this in a general sense are there consumers that care about this of course is there a market for them of course is it infantes small than the market for consumers that just want to consume the cheapest best thing of course I don't actually know I'd have to check and see infant tesame smaller is is pretty strong verbiage there it is was made with AI I'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence is that it doesn't matter nobody really cares the lead developer has been very positive about AI in the past and made an AI game called AI art imposter that an AI artist draw a picture and so that that was like like one of the games this we yes just generally has been much more positive about some of the benefits of AI rather than yeah basically people accuse the uh the the CEO of the company that made po world of using AI to make pow world because he liked AI so they basically just made up an accusation and they're just running with it and uh I heard recently that the person who originally made the accusation has apologized H then what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know I guess General uh Twitter population which is that you know AI is bad and it takes jobs from people well Ai and the sentiment from artists this artists this is the part that's going to make people mad opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because what matters is the opinion of the people that are buying the product yes like it doesn't like your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't nobody cares like it's it's not it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well-respected and and really respectable uh directors talks about how bad Marvel is shut up old man I still find this so funny shut up old man like but um I mean if if you you have to imagine though in the world where Marvel isn't shat on by Tarantino COI [ __ ] Copa all the people that might have who are still around who might have like a significant amount of people who respect them for their work it can't be preferable to have all of them saying your work is [ __ ] destroy the industry differ at all there's no way way if they were saying these movies are actually pretty great yo that like that would that that would have no impact either or that Marvel wouldn't like that well something I was thinking about is the is it just as simple as like so let's say 10 artists say I hate this thing we shouldn't have it and then as Gold's like you don't matter compared to the millions of people buying it you go okay 100 and he's like still no a th000 still no 10,000 okay yeah maybe okay and you'd be like so yeah there is just a fundamental units line it's probably just percentage based between the people consuming and people not consuming it I guess which um I don't know it just it feels it feels a little bit um like I guess we circling back around to he really was just stating what is reality in a sense cuz that's just like statistically the more people who care and make things matter the more it matters You' be like yeah I guess yeah I have I have a problem with his statement that nobody has ever um chosen the more you know expensive thing uh on a mass level right like oh yeah sure some people do but but not everybody does and he brings up clothing right um because fast fashion is like the second or third most polluting uh uh industry in the world and if you just bought slightly more expensive more e iCal clothing then you know a lot of that would go away um but we have seen this actually and I was thinking about it while he was talking we've seen the The Disappearance basically almost complete disappearance of the fur trade because we didn't like what they were doing there we've seen almost the complete disappearance of um animal testing for makeup and cosmetics that's almost completely gone now because we didn't like the idea of you know rabbits being horribly mutilated uh in order to find out whether lipstick is um and a third one that you know we still this is almost universally reviled at this point is the ivory trade right we don't want elephants to be murdered uh even though we think that Ivory is you know very very attractive and it's brought up the the cost of ivory to you know stratospheric prices um so these are Imports back in like the what was it 80s in America it was it's been a long time in the ivory Imports have been completely illegal so all the ivory that's in the country is all that there is so but yes what about like charity just in general that's obviously indicative of people's desire to help that doesn't help themselves necessarily right I suppose you could argue it makes them feel better maybe um but just just taking action to try and make the world or other people better based on how you feel ethically like that it should happen so if that is instilled in people somewhat fundamentally then surely it would still have some imp on the consumption as well because at least cons consumption is actually offering you something in return so maybe you'd feel more inclined to do it ethically because at least you're gaining something no matter what as well I just I wanted to um we don't want to we don't want to get to the point of like losing faith in humanity you know oh yeah definitely don't want to go there um and also like when it comes to you know a lot of this has is surrounded by discussion of like Ai and stuff within games uh gamers are unfortunately quite [ __ ] so not a great you know is it not a great example I think for the most part a lot of gamers are super normies when it comes to stuff like this games are often seen as very much like recreational disposable slash things you don't really worry about it doesn't have that kind of place in people's minds as a lot of other things do games aren't a serious thing you know yeah there there's still a lot of people forget that outside of mobile games the average gamer will buy two to three games a year right which if you are a quote gamer you would probably think that that's ridiculous but the the large majority of people are are people who have a switch or they have a PlayStation and they buy the newest you know soccer or or football game and that's it shut up if people have a problem with like uh Ai and algorithms in video games you need to decide where the line is drawn because algorithms are used for a lot of things including something as simple as inventory management you know sorting items in like your box or your bag or whatever by alphabet or whatever that's all determined by that's that scale thing I talking about again and I do actually think that is what's happening all of these conversations everyone's having is about everyone's establishing lines and then everyone is pushing or pulling everyone else's lines including their own yeah I like watching the Thor movie it was cool Thor and thunder was really bad though you know what's funny if they revealed Thor love and thunder was done exclusively with AI we'd all be like oh yeah um that explains that explains itain things so people really didn't like that clip and I want to say really quickly that I stand behind what I said 100% And I'm right and the emotional outbursts of Manchild on Twitter over the next day or two will subside we talked about this people just go for his room you have to go for the room if he calls you a Manchild you have to say what look at your room dude well then at that point he saying that everyone's a Manchild we just got to we got to live in everyone's a Manchild no one is will prevail reason will wiggle its way in and people will see the truth of what I said and the best thing about it is that I can prove it and that's the that's that's the good thing about the truth is that I don't have to that's the good thing about the truth it's like yeah I guess so it's you'd hope you can prove it yeah sure the truth is pretty NE you free and all that yes to uh bully people off like I can read arguments from people that disagree with me and I can prove them wrong these people can't prove me wrong they can post the picture of my room and say my room is dirty and so I'm wrong you can do that but I'm still right yeah I almost want to say like uh him his room being dirty has nothing to do with these arguments still man you don't want a room like that don't have a room like that Jes grow up [ __ ] hell it's really disgusting well I don't know what what the problem like like CU I you think it's not just a matter of aesthetic it's just like it's bad for you like me you know clean your room right that's like a that's a meme yeah I mean Peterson says you got to you know you got to clean your room a clean room is a clean mind or something that's probably a quote I I don't I don't know he might have said something someone said that at some point but yeah you can say I'm a loser you can say I'm ugly you can say I fell off no you look fine you look fine that you want but that doesn't change the truth and that's the best thing about it is that it doesn't matter how mad you get it still doesn't matter it still doesn't change anything your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't by nobody cares that's right and I want to extrapolate this so almost all art has relatively no intrinsic value relatively no intrinsic value is a bizarre I need a definition on every single word in that sentence relatively no intrinsic value yeah yeah that why why intrinsic nothing has intrinsic value question mark what is intrinsic value for like every single word exactly I don't know what to do with that there's too much that needs to be defined but I presume he's about to explain what he means by this right sweet like if you're at a um uh if if you are stranded on an island would you rather have a cooler full of food or would you rather have a uh uh would you rather have the Mona Lisa so that does not help the initial statement that doesn't help at all because there's no intrinsic value to survival so I don't even know why he if it's uh it's it's kind of interesting to think you know good old maslo hierarchy of needs right if you're at a position where you live in a house and you have food and you have water and you have all of your basic needs met at some point you you might get to the place where yeah on a general day-to-day basis you are more invested in the art that you are that you watch or play or read than you are in any given meal that you eat that day well I have my my tap and I'm like do you want a bottle of water or do you want you know [ __ ] the next Mario game I'm like well Mario I got my tap over there I don't and then on the desert island they're like you can have Mario where you can have a bottle of water water bottle water bot I mean yeah exactly because if you were on a desert on a deserted island and it's like you don't have all of your basic needs met like you know Food Water Shelter then yeah of course you want the you want the water but once those needs start getting M and then it all starts to change how much it matters to you in terms of how much it occupies your mind how much you'd be willing to pay for it you know yeah and then fundamental nostalgic value or or or personal value you know like my grandmother's watch I care about it a hell of a lot more than fringy does and I might even value it more than a bottle of water on on that deser but he'd be like [ __ ] that watch we need the bottle and I'm like MH maybe I don't know but yeah uh these are things that he's going to he's going to talk about a bit as well it's just that these are not fantastic opening statements I think he's figuring it out as he goes along and I think that that that's what makes art special is the fact that it has value but the value is not intrinsic I don't you can't you can say the word again but that doesn't help us figure out what practical value or valuee what means that's not intrin then again how much do you want to delve into how much art is like fundamental to our conceptions of existence or keeping a civilization sane yeah intrinsic is like inherent right it's part of the essence of something that you're describing yeah the way I'm interpreting what he's saying is that it's the value it has even if all humans were gone which at that point it's like well then it has no value because humans it's like wait uh but in the same way that the food would have no value to humans in terms of sustaining us because we didn't exist either you know y yeah yeah you'd have say what you mean when you say intrin and applied if it was being applied in that way then it's like well this is not very helpful because then everything has no intrinsic value I think he's about to compare it to a hammer and at that point it's like so he is he means like there's a practical thing we can a hammer can do things and make things happen but that a painting is to be appreciated like mentally or something like um okay well I guess let's him say it first like a hammer has value you can use a hammer to accomplish a goal a uh you know a nail has value you can use a nail to hold something in place and so in general and and this isn't true all the time he saying that those things have intrinsic value a hammer has intrinsic value is that what he's saying well so this is the problem like well what what if you don't need to hold anything I think we need to throw away inin even if you yeah intrinsic is messing everything up like I I don't think that's I mean of course my response would be yeah well what good is a hammer if I'm floating in the middle of space for instance you know value of the hammer to be in that situation I'm floating in space but thank God I have this Hammer exactly cuz it has intrinsic value well you know the funny thing is if you're Flo through space and you have no reason to believe you'll ever be found now you're done it's rather have a book well you got the oxygen well I was going to go further like you'd rather probably have if if God said I could send you a bottle of water a hammer or someone's painting yeah you're like well the bottle of you can't even drink it let's say it's it's an EMP no you know what I mean like he said Hammer or nail or someone's painting you might be like I might just go with the paintings that might be more interesting I'm not sure well yeah because if we want to talk about practical value if we want to talk about practical value of like it serves a goal and easy one to point to was and I played Mario because I was feeling sad and wanted to be happy so I played Mario and that achieved the goal of making me happy like there there's there's no downplaying like the importance of achieving psychological goals with uh the things that you you interact with and use just as much more apparent practical goal of a hammer nailing in a nail to make you know a cupboard or something well so you're you're stranded on that island and you're thinking maybe you know I'm going to kill myself that's it I'm not going to be saved but then you have Mario there it's like you know what I'll play a Mario and then that that keeps you alive just long enough that a ship comes by the next day and it's like oh there he is let's go get him you leave the menu screen on long enough and he just turns and looks at you and goes never give up and you're like oh Mario give thank you so much for playing my game you're on you're on your last alive and uh yeah the soldier Super Chat is saying he's conflating value with utility they mean different things so not only is that an issue one can with sort oft extrapolation say that utility can you know how much utility is there in having a painting versus a hammer it's like well it depends yeah if it's a really good painting that could have like some massive utility compared to I don't feel like building anything you know hey I got my hammer but I don't have anything I want to do with it so but I'm making a general statement that's not always true okay so just please please please please hold hold your exceptions no we will allow you to continue but we will also like exceptions please please I know I know you have an exception that you want to put out there and try to pretend like you're smart I know I know you have an exception I do too but I'm talking about in a general sense okay art does not have a sense of that's that's not true it absolutely has a functional value uh if I'm trying to be as generous as possible what is the category we would have for you can't eat it uh well architecture has a functional value right if we want to go for a really basic example because now help me out here right architecture it's it's like engineering but also with an emphasis on Aesthetics right yes it is Aesthetics that you make while you are also keeping in mind that it needs to that either serves some sort of a purpose and that it has to be practical because engineers and Architects work together to make sure that the building actually you know serves some function either fulfilling aesthetic desire um or also making sure that it is you know fulfills the you know necessity of being what a house is you know I got to live here it's got to have this space that's duh it's got to be good shelter can't leak things of that nature and also how do we make it look good and feel good well you like propaganda that art like art with serious function that has like a very to the point where it's designed to help win Wars or Star like um or like the GI Joe you know like the the public service announcements you know it's like that's art With a Purpose with with a purpose of of like and and the thing is is that these are the examples that you would point to if you were going for the most plain and obvious nature of functionality but I mean the functionality of art that like teaches you some kind of lesson that is Meaningful to you and makes you happy there functionality there yeah yeah when Sonic tells you don't let your uncle touch you in the no no place that that that's a very valuable thing for kids to know and it's important that Sonic tells me that well what kind of art are they talking about too right like the actual medium of the art because would you consider what you know EAP is to be art or would you say what is painted right are we talking about just that as as if we want to tie it back to you know economic functionality well the stuff you own has economic value it it has a price that you can then sell it or exchange it to get money that you need for other things so in many dimensions of course art like has very clear functionality if it keeps you happy that is like yeah your mood is not keep you happy one thing that has no value and uh when I was in search and rescue they said the first rule of you have all of these needs all these things you have to do in survival and one of them is PMA Pro positive mental attitude got to have a positive mental attitude and that's like a survival thing that they teach you how to stay alive got to stay positive the idea that if you have a positive attitude that can just fundamentally improve your chances of uh survival if you're depressed and want to die your survival chances don't look good that's a great Point yeah if everything's about function like if if people are going to perform functions they need to be in a state of mind to not only do it but do it well IDE well you know how much you want to boil how much you want to boil down the decisions that everybody makes all the time down to the most clinical the what people would view as the most Clinic um decision like brushing your teeth for instance versus um playing video games or watching a movie or going for a bike ride or hiking or going dancing like all of these things are ultimately in service of your mood like in one talking game only talking about this the the ones and zeros instead of the aesthetic of the design of the things in the game and the characters and what they say and the themes of the game that would be like the difference mhm a Picasso painting is not going to do anything G to make me Rich well he can I'm actually come back to a [ __ ] black outter episode where they want him to paint a picture that's going to do some achieve something in particular with the men like for morale or for whatever I was convincing I was just like there's so many functions that art can serve uh that are even Beyond just the sense of it can make you feel good it's like I'm not even just talking about that I'm talking about things that have like Grand [ __ ] repercussions based on an artwork we you know the artworks can get you killed if you make them so it's it's it's weird to say that like the this a weird thing to say is is all I matter Goes Forth like a war painting or yeah yeah yeah have value to some people and that value is subjective and the fact that the value is subjective proves my point sometimes even the strictly practical things a hammer is probably going to have more value to a carpenter than it is to somebody who doesn't intend to build anything ever in their life and would rather if if we're talking about practicality then it is not subjective that broccoli is good that it objectively broccoli is good for you if we're we're if we're operating on a on the practicality scale right that's not you can have value that isn't purely subjective like you can think it's good for you and it also can be necessary for your survival you know food nutrients these things are not subjective MH and I can give you another example of people that are making art that nobody cares about now you can scroll but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value that means nobody cares about it yeah it means less people consider it valuable down on this tweet and most of the people that are being very angry are people that are making art that nobody cares about how does he piss people off I don't know I couldn't imagine yeah right or you can go over to Twitch and you can go down to uh let's go down to uh I don't know World of Warcraft and let's scroll all the way down and you're going to find people that have one two zero viewers and they're streaming the same as everybody else's but nobody cares about them and it doesn't really matter that they're streaming wow it doesn't really matter to who this what I mean yeah if this is about the controversial versus non-controversial statements it's all about the packaging and I feel like he's starting to do this kind of on purpose because if the non-controversial thing is these guys don't have viewers which means people aren't viewing them like well yeah no one cares about that statement but if you say they're not doing anything of value you be like whoa I mean again the example what if there's a guy who's just got a Sketchbook and he's drawing images he like I'm not intending to show these to anybody I'm just doing it for me cuz it makes me feel good it's like well that's pretty [ __ ] worthless isn't it it's like what all right let's let's chill out okay well and I feel like this explains why he's going to piss people off it's like why are you saying it like this um I assume people in chat can relate to this but have you ever come across a channel where they have basically like 10 views maybe a 100 and you watch them you're like this guy's going to be huge and it's because you recognize like what they're making is going to be really [ __ ] valued by a lot of people because well it is valued by you in that instance it's valued by the guy who's creating to get already in that instance you believe that the artwork has gone beyond any sense of like does it serve a particular purpose as opposed to you you recognize the quality of it in and of itself and so it you know you you expect it to explode in and of itself sort of thing this this is confusing to like it's like all these streamers who I feel kind of bad looking at streaming graveyards I just feel like so many people trying to [ __ ] make this work uh and who knows maybe one or few of them in there they're going to be huge one day I guess interesting right because I mean everybody starts from zero you know maybe one of these guys is going to make it big eventually and if and if they listen to the lesson of like well it has no value and they're like oh [ __ ] it then all right I give up it's like oh wellow [ __ ] I mean now you made it for sure that nobody's ever going to you know see what you could have made in the future all I'm saying is the if all he's trying to say is these people's streams don't generate like a market value because they don't have anyone watching them whatever it's like so that's just a neutral that's not even like why would you think even to say it is so is so normal as a statement but if you frame it as they don't have value or they don't have uh they don't matter you know yeah it's silly I mean you could be a really talented streamer and I think it does take skill to be able to not only do an activity or play a game but also hold an audience's attention at the same time but and if someone is like really good at that and they're just looking at their view metrics and it's like oh nobody's watching I guess I'll just give up then and then like never make anything after that you've just robbed yourself of the potential to grow your audience at all it's like you're definitely not going to get anywhere if you don't stream at all and so if asman gold is saying if you have zero views you don't matter like somebody could take that and be like oh I guess I'll just give up then like it's not a cool the reason why it's uh relying on these kind of like external metrics as a marker of your success can be really fickle compared to if you've got like internal metrics that are more based on I I guess what you would Define as the quality of the thing that you're making that as long as you're improving you're succeeding not necessarily that you're gaining X number of subscribers per day or viewers per day because that's so out of your control in a lot of ways obviously there some degree of control and influence right it's not like the things that you do have no impact on on your external results but yeah yeah value to this stream they're not going to make any money uh now maybe they will in in the future but whenever they do in the future the reason for that will be because people see value in them that's because the know you even made a point there my guy this what I mean though if he's just saying they'll be more popular when they're more popular like I mean yeah total logically yes yeah which is why yeah that point is empowered by the people that consume their content and it doesn't matter if it's a picture it doesn't matter if it's a video a stream or anything or a hammer or a hammer where people only it only has value for as long as people see value in it these things have value because other people say they do art is fundamentally subjective that's I think that if you think it's art it's art that's where it comes from I I fundamentally can art not be I guess I don't think art can be not subjective at all well you just said if you think it's odd it's which is another really weird statement which is also not true that's just like well yeah CU if you point at a tree and say that's OD it's like um is nature art yeah if you point at TH 11 Thunder and say that's yeah it's like it's not even a mind so uh unless he's appealing to a s of just making up your own like language or something but like only a few things that might fit the def fit that if you say it's the thing it's the thing like anything like a designation right like the word you know you know what I mean like there there are very few things you can't designate a thing without it being a designation because it's like tautologically what the word means you know but in a meaningful sense no just because you say something's a thing doesn't mean it's that thing yeah there were people some people think that everything is a so the reason why that's true is the same essence of the reason why I'm saying what I'm saying so whenever I say an artist's opinion doesn't matter on their art it's because whenever an artist says this is worth $50 to me and somebody else says no it's not the artist can still try to charge $50 for it but nobody has to buy itra to monetary value I feel I feel like he even had to alter his own point there so in the scenario where the artist says it's worth 50 and then everyone else goes I ain't paying 50 [ __ ] you he he was like there and then he thought to himself well wait I guess the artists wouldn't have to sell it though would they they could still be like it's it's 50 you pay 50 or you don't get it and he was like okay but nobody has to pay for it that way and it's like yeah but it matters doesn't it that artist's opinion on what that thing is worth what value it has matters because if they didn't have an opinion on it then that person could have bought it but if they're saying no [ __ ] you it's worth this price we just we just established that it was prevented from entering the market or rather it's it's opening to the market is now hampered by that artist's opinion of its value so this is not a good example at all no I I genuinely think he even kind of saw that for a second there was like oh [ __ ] right yeah cuz the artist can and will it'll change based on the artist's mattering opinion which again um it's brought up later by another account but uh Flappy Bird being an example of a game that was taken down because the Creator's opinion was changed about the nature of the art and what it was doing like to the world like it's just that then that matter off the market like that's that's a huge impact also yeah the artist opinion that determines what the thing is that's being bought or sold like of course it matters if the artist had a different opinion and a different outlook on everything then it would just be a totally different thing because that value is decided by the customer that's the way it works is whenever you go to market with a product you have to meet the customer's demand and it doesn't matter about someone said what is Flappy bit of to do with the nature of the world what everything everything flppy bud is the answer what you think the world should be it doesn't matter about how you view ethics in art it doesn't matter about how you think trade should be it doesn't wait wait wait hold up I mean it does you can't say that it's customers who determine the value of these things and then say it doesn't matter what the customer thinks it's like which one well yeah he seems to be going for like individual doesn't matter but group does like what do you think a group is what a grp yeah well and it's usually comes for a group is usually you know comprised of individuals but often times it's spread from other people telling other people telling other people telling other you know what I mean like he's almost decrying the idea of shouting out to the world that you have an issue with X because it's done this way and then he's like there's no point doesn't matter your opinion doesn't matter what if it pick up traction exactly yeah or or if you're a particularly good speaker and you can present your idea in a way very compelling a lot of people bom's perspective on someone's art as an individual killed their channel idbs was known for this he was a channel killer if people didn't care about plagiarism in you know theft of that nature then the channel would still be up because the guy wouldn't feel bad about it because no one would feel bad about it so there's no issue whatsoever that happen what is voting if not trying to manifest in some way the way that you think the world ought to be and how it ought to be run yes do it matter about whether you're a capitalist these things do matter though that's the problem even if you don't think they matter the most which is fine I could probably agree with that they do matter or not none of these things matter the only thing fundamentally that matters is if what you are doing is perceived to have value in the eyes of the public no what I mean the public what the [ __ ] are you talking about what if I do it for me and it makes me happy gives me seems like he is very squirely on the idea of like economic value rather than I guess the more uh yeah this is why too many things get conflated because it's like uh what he what he wanted to say was that no matter what you have to say about your artwork Rags it's market value won't be determined by that but it's like but that's not even true if Rags went crazy and said a bunch of wacky things but like the I think was didn't this happen in succession they were trying to do a deal and one of the guys started tweeting crazy [ __ ] and they were like stop it's tanking on numbers remember that yeah the uh yeah the scars card guy yeah like the you know take any like wholesome happy artist who releases painting every once a while or anything and then starts tweeting [ __ ] the nword or something over and over again people like oh my god um and so that individual will then have a huge effect on the market you know yeah exactly and then if someone said that's not an opinion that's just being crazy it's like okay yeah just they express an opinion on you you know where I'm going with this they can express any kinds of opinions that'll get them uh destroy the market value you have an artist a famous artist who just decides one day you know what I hate my art and it's terrible and no one should ever have it and they decide to destroy all their art so that dramatically increases the value of all their pieces that are in you know private Collections and are in museums yeah I like well that that artist opinion literally insanely and drastically changed the value of their art in its price like I can't someone said like that's not an opinion on the value of the art it's like you can't con you can't conceive of a controversial opinion on your own artwork that you could release to damage its market value you can't think of one I mean I know that I could I know that I could seconds right like I could destroy my entire channel in 10 seconds right now if I wanted to excuse me in the eyes of the person you're selling it to and the truth of that but that's an individual that's a customer not the general plurality of customers there are plenty of things that the the amorphous blob of consumers might in a descriptive way price a thing at but I don't give a [ __ ] you know I was like yeah like you're Art's actually a really good example for this there are plenty of artists who say yeah if you want to get art from me it'll cost $10,000 and I'll be like I don't give a [ __ ] I'll give you I'll give you you 100 for it is proven every single day it's proven every single day whenever somebody buys a video makes a video game and nobody buys it it's proven whenever Riot shuts down Riot Forge because nobody bought the games do you want to know why a lot of those people got fired it's because of you it's because of you and it's because of me and the reason why is because we didn't buy and support those games because we didn't care about them and because we didn't care about them they didn't make any money and they got [ __ ] fired no it's partially like a lot of it is not up to us a lot of it has to do with you know well what's the cost on it you know what do they have to operate at in order to be successful it's like yeah people have to buy sure but how much that happens and how much support it takes is going to also be determined by you know the operating costs and what it took to make it you got to be careful with thinking like this cuz it can take you to everything that takes place in the world that you had the potential to do anything to stop is now your fault you be like what if you just didn't even know it existed what if you didn't even know what if you couldn't know well you could have taken steps to find out yeah that's what I mean like this is going a little too far on this one yeah and that's the way the worlds theame now I understand that there's a lot of people that are angry because I'm saying this cuz you're shoot the messenger yeah I think I think he's just he's not saying it very well that's all I'm not angry at him I he's he's chilling he fine he's exploring this very complicated topic like lots of people do or do that's fine but the reality is that I'm still not wrong and this reality will be proven every single second of every day until the enden every second too that weird matters that he keeps using it's uh it's it's destroying every argument he makes in what I said but maybe if I maybe if I said it in a different way more people would have it would have resonated with more people but in another way I'm saying it and now a lot of people are mad and more people are addressing it so I don't think that it's really like a I'm right and you know they're wrong or whatever but I think about this but you said you're right you you base this all off I'm right you do you absolutely think that you want to ask him uh what's the difference between something that matters and something that doesn't matter what's the thing that makes the the mattering thing well I'm sure you'd agree with us that we need a framing we need a thing that it matters too we remember we highlighted this one of his statements where he said matters and we were like we need the thing that you're talking about matters to what do I fundamentally do I frame you need an intention sorry go ahead well this is this is what we were talking about this is why everyone's getting mad at him on Twitter is because a lot of people have now taken him to mean that artists don't matter full stop which is like like he's devaluing a human being if they become an artist which is obviously taken way too far um but like even the notion of that for a lot of people on Twitter is so infuriating they like it's almost why they believe that he said it like this piece of [ __ ] I hate him he said the thing that I [ __ ] hate fundamentally like what I do is I communicate to people and so I think about you know is my mode of communication actually becoming counterproductive I don't think so but I do think I'm a better Communicator uh I I personally think that he doesn't think it's counterproductive like well one of the things you just said was that phrased it in a much more agreeable way maybe it wouldn't have had as much reach and had as many people thinking about it which is an interesting point of view uh probably did rip off things from Nintendo directly I I do think so I'm going to keep playing the game that doesn't affect my opinion of the game but I do think that they I think that they didn't like so uh genuine answer for me if I'm playing a game I'm really enjoying then I find out they just and I'm not saying this about po wi I'm saying a theoretical if I played a game where they had ripped every single asset from other games I genuinely would have to think for a bit be like hm maybe I shouldn't play the game like this this it does feel a bit awkward cuz this is like if it's stolen work I don't know yeah I don't yeah I don't I would definitely feel pretty about it now if it took if it yeah it'd be like it would be one thing if it took assets from all kinds of different games and combined them into a very interesting and strange way or maybe it was trying to make some sort of like a meta Point potentially almost like like a Stanley Parable style of this and that and being a gamer and I think it would function on a big old scale wouldn't it like yeah yeah I think so I agree with you and I also think there's a strong possibility that a game like that would get review bombed you know like if it was just like so obviously Pokemon like none of the designs were altered I think a lot of people would that day before what was that game wasn't that the day before Oh the day before yeah yeah oh there's there's countless examples right like some of the worst and then some of the chiller ones there there's examples of games that are really good that have like things that are clearly taken from something else but how ethical the acquiring of those assets are is complicated sometimes sure how how much you add to it and so on um I agree right this is why we don't like Hassan because right we we create reasons why we don't like Hassan okay but we create a video and then there is which is your favorite reason well but there there's this you know creation of a a piece of property that we think is good and then you put it out there in the world and somebody watches it quietly while they get up and go to the bathroom right like there's nothing added to it so that that's the same sort of thing that I think you're talking about with regards to taking lots of influences and mixing them together but I do tend to agree with you mer that if this game were a one toone stolen property thing right like you wouldn't necessarily uh uh want to keep playing that I would definitely think about it even if it fun that's the ethics of it I think there's a line for everybody probably on that one too like if if the game would just a complete rip and they changed the name alone and people really enjoyed it and then they were informed like you you should be playing the original one it's right over there sort of thing I wonder if they is it is the effort of turning that off and going turning on the other one enough to stop them I don't know but like I said think about it my line is definitely going to be a bit more robust and complicated more so than have fun or not yes especially like the in the in the case of pal World there is a layer of modification to the designs it might be a slim one but it is there and I think that's enough for most people to go like okay yeah that's fine like there's one animal in pal world that's like a fire fox and it's just like Vulpix and Charmander basically it's like what if we just mixed design elements from these two and made a new thing are just like yeah you know yeah just like I can see the elements from both but you sort of unify them into one thing I don't think Nintendo holds any legal ground over like a a fox creature that has fire powers so like I think this is fine no yeah I saw silly ones like the Sheep one was really funny where it was like they've copied Pokemon it's like they drawn from a sheep like that's silly yeah especially ones that are based on animals is like two different companies are taking strong inspiration from a real life thing so they're probably going to look decently similar cuz they're both taking inspiration from the real animal what a lot of them are arguing uh which is really dangerous by the way is that Nintendo and specifically Pokemon owns the aesthetic right they own the art aesthetic and is a very dangerous position because does The Simpsons own uh characters that are yellow right exactly does and that is the argument that a lot of them end up to well I think the comparison for Simpsons would be more so you can tell when someone's drawn something you're like oh that looks like Simpsons style like Simpsons has a style there is a Simpsons M graining Style just like South Park has a style which is the uh like the characters are like made of of of uh pieces of paper cut into square circles and that they animate in a specific way yes um so in pal World specifically the animals are definitely Pokemon aesthetic they are in that style for sure there's no question and it is purpose we would probably be calling them neopet style if that had become more popular than Pokemon right or you know uh any of these really you could say Digimon you could say uh um even what is it Mami tensei which you know created the concept of capturing uh and fighting animals together I think humans created that well okay I me that just yeah as long as you know as long as their designs are you know distinct and different from our own you know I was like well all right fair enough yep like I I it's too close and maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm wrong but like see music saying it's just aesthetic is disingenuous there are Pals that are just straight up Pokemon it's like disingenuous I not even played the game I'm talking about the theory of all of it I don't know that person's also wrong like just wrong I've seen some that are like definitely close but they're still different can still be like oh one is this one and one is that one and I a on the S of letting people take strong inspiration other than saying no your your inspiration means that Nintendo can sue you I'll he's probably good to air on the side of you know that yeah but we also just literally addressed that whole thing by saying The Simpsons so just scaling in degrees and you definitely want to be in a position where we Crush down so hard that it actually like kills amazing new projects right yeah I mean just a month ago we're all celebrating uh a steam but Willie and then today oh well power taking inspiration is disgusting I think part of that is how much people hate Disney right now I'm not the lawyer I don't need to be like you know 100% you know [ __ ] right about this or this isn't an illegal argument I'm just saying like this is my vibe check person who makes YouTube videos sure okay okay like this is a Vibe check so anyway uh if you're capitalist not wrong I think many including myself would argue that uh we have a good moral obligation to look after the ones making said products even in the capitalistic thing is wrong if you're streamly viewing this from capitalistic Viewpoint you're not wrong I think many including myself would argue that we have a moral obligation to look after well so I think he's going to line up with us mostly on this that it isn't the system is going to be the actors within the system and that we do still try to like the the more extreme parts of any system to prevent it from you know overflowing in any particular direction mhm uh if we never care about the artist the art stops and nobody wins and uh I I respond back to this I say if many such yourself care about the moral obligation why is it the biggest companies are often the most immoral wa it and and my point is that why the biggest compies often the most immoral we should be moral oh yeah but big companies are often not moral I don't I don't even see how those two things are related well so the he's saying that it can't be that many care if we end up with companies that are supported by the many that are immoral I guess he's he's commenting on the fact that like an apple or an Amazon or whatever have you are fundamentally immoral with what's a lot of what they do but the the dollars come in from quote unquote the many in this case I don't know how that's yeah even then I don't know how that's a counter to the person saying we should you know act morally that's a countering the many Concept cep uh which I mean the thing is many could mean a lot of people rather than the significant selection of people like as in like the vast majority of people or whatever um this is the result from a self- resti world viiew that most people have rather than an outcome of capitalism the whole concept of a corporation though is to be aoral right like that's why they exist is to remove the moral ality and make it the corporations don't have a moral component intrinsically I wouldn't it be better designed that way even even if we actually knew just truthfully from Wizard man that um no matter what uh morality everyone hears about the the evil Corporation will win it's like okay but that doesn't mean we should just not we should just stop right that we should probably continue pushing for good morals anyway can't hear right I don't think I'm going to die but I'm going to try and push that time back as far as I can can you yes because it's not built into the structure of a corporation right a corporation is by its its design a moral because it is existing exclusively to create profit and deliver that profit to its stakeholders and that is exclusively what it does there is no morality around it the the the job of us as a consumer uh um when we're purchasing these things and we don't like the the ethics of it is to not purchase from them or to force change in some way right like those are political systems and stuff whatever it is right like whether through boycotts or whether through just shaming the corporation to the point where it becomes a uh a lack of profitability or to start that Corporation and force ethics and morality to be a part of the the corporate structure itself but outside of that the corporations are are designed to be a more I feel like if we can change things like the eradication of the institution of slavery then we can do all sorts of things and having a Doomer mindset of oh woe is US everything's terrible nothing's going to change everyone's immoral and they all bad it's like I don't think that that that's not very helpful no and they're not right like the provably people are not bad um I mean they can be bad but like as a general you'd like to think that generally humans are pretty neat I'm assuming I think that people are good because we're not all murdering each other right like we've created these sort of structures of government and structure of Law and we generally abide by it because we want to right like if you if you didn't want to if all people looked at the rule of law and we were like [ __ ] that [ __ ] well then it wouldn't exist people have a mutual interest in living in a society that's stable they don't want to have to constantly look over their shoulder and worry about whether they're going to get killed or all have all their [ __ ] stolen like we need a social fabric right and then we accept the sort of governmental thuggery that comes down and puts this threat of violence above us right like we accept that we got uh in chat I see a quote from rag someone's got just be positive and will magically overcome it that's right that's just what I said that is just what you said very true you did it you nailed it good vibes often times people that think that because they get 6,000 likes or 12,000 likes or 40,000 likes on Twitter then somehow this means that this is what most people think it's not most people think what how are youing that isolation Fair yeah but it's he saying that just because you got a lot of engagement on Twitter doesn't mean that it reflects what most people think uh yeah sure yeah yeah though here in this case I doubt you will get I I think that the idea of you should be moral you you should try to be a good consumer essentially is something that most people would disagree with he he was talking about he was talking about the people [ __ ] on him on Twitter uh yeah yes it's it's great to look I yeah all right yeah moving on yeah I agree with that yes at sentiment but sentiment is never better than data and the data says that it's not true games like power world hitting 2 million concurrent players 6,000 people liking a tweet doesn't really matter and if we didn't have this data then we'd be having a debate but we don't need to have a debate because the data proves will prove it over over and over it's not the cas just like it did with swe twet and just like it's doing right now with AI and in the future it will be something that we can't even imagine that will be doing the same thing moral because we under capitalism money is greater than morals this person it's like I think it just died frame changed for me so yes okay maybe refresh why I C I couldn't even exit it for a moment there it wouldn't let me um okay give me a sec I'll boot her back up what what triggered me was him using that matters word again uh yeah a tweet is like many things that we change our mind on it doesn't happen all at once it's h we get nudged in that direction over time and oftentimes it's you know people on social media giving their opinions and reasoning and that nudges us towards a different opinion and then one day it's like oh yeah well uh you know now it's but but you now I think differently the thing is it's all about scale six 6,000 likes can absolutely change something uh 6,000 likes did in fact very recently like a few days ago end Chugga Conroy's uh career right like this does happen 6,000 uh likes can absolutely do that right this why when he says it doesn't matter I'm just like I need you to make more sense because you're not making sense to me yeah you're gonna have to say something you're going to have to tell me what you mean when you say that word CU I don't even know if you know what you mean or you're just is referring to this Eis General concept that you can't quite grab on to also give me a sec I'm just uh I don't know what's going on my my I think Chrome is is having a bit of a memory leak or something uh maybe someone had mentioned watch together uh sometimes doesn't play nice with chrome every once in a while I haven't had problem but I've heard it from some people that that that they have to use like an incognito tab or Microsoft Edge during this stream I actually switched over to Edge because it was killing my computer I mean the days go by gets into more and more controversies the amount that Chrome is being like uh seen as a shitty uh browser tomor but oh well uh I mean it's fine for now so we'll just go back to being normal 12,000 likes or 40,000 likes on Twitter then somehow this means that this is what most people think it's not I think that it it's it's great to look at sentiment but sentiment is never better than data and the bizarre way to phrase that um you sometimes I joke because I've been playing d d and d recently and sometimes you make the joke of it's it's only it's only one of your hit points that actually matters it's the the last one the last the rest yeah it which is like yeah technically that's true you know generally but obviously there's going to be a huge difference between characters and video games and whatnot that have one hit point versus you know 50 versus you know a thousand right it's the same argument as the last vote does is the only vote that matters right yeah it's like you only have to get one over the other guy you know but but but obviously you know the things that people say and the discourse that happens it affects uh what people do in a more I sense it affects what they buy it affects how they vote it affects all this stuff which is obvious and everyone should know that in simplifying it to saying that none of this you know matters is like I don't know insanely simplistic and I don't even know what what what was the word is is it myopic is that it m yo is that the word lacking imagination foresight or intellectual Insight yeah myopic so I I don't know like if if like I my political POS I used to be like a hardcore Catholic and I'm an atheist now and that happened over a course of many debates and many arguments and many like if something that fundamental I guess to my life can change then so can people spending habits and they often do there are products I won't buy there are companies I won't buy from and I think everyone's pretty much like that for the most part I think uh I it's not a big deal especially because we have so many options that I'll be like yeah I won't buy from this company but I'll buy from this you know adjacent company to get the a near identical or similar product but that I think is you know either more ethical or less unethical you know I think this is something that probably most people in chat do um so it's it's strange coming from him you think he'd be really clued into this change Minds he says doesn't matter we respond with well there are many such cases of it mattering and then many people in chat are being like yeah but still generally doesn't matter it's like if he had said it generally doesn't matter that'd be different and I don't even yeah that would be better for him but I don't even know if like do do the way PE does the way people think like I would still say the way people think generally does matter because that's what determines the things that they tangibly do even I mean the beliefs that people have determines their actions and their behaviors you can't go ahead sorry I'm just going to say in the in the context of what talking about the idea that it is popular to be you know whatever does not make it ethical it's it's not part of the equation at all yeah which is the thing that we're all like yeah we know yeah yeah that's right yeah I I yes so funny every everyone's saying that is level that that is what he means and you're overlooking it it's like you're so generous but like you got to you got to let him have his actual opinion you can't change it he said many times this is the thing that we keep getting hung up on cuz he keeps saying it wrong but why would we just take him for what he's saying which he thinks that it doesn't matter generally in the grand scheme of the discussion which again not true on so many different aspects of how different products enter and exit the market that's just obious he means something else then he at the same something else it's not a great position to take because it's discouraging people from sharing like their own disdain toward a product or why they would stand away from it ethically because well it doesn't matter when it's like but it does we know what he means exactly we because he pulled up twitch and he went and he showed these streamers don't matter he made it very clear what he thinks yeah and I disagree with him like it's I I also disagree one person's opinion could destroy a product it's uh it could happen at any moment absolutely one single person is often all it takes and there could be a person with no followers ain't that nuts and the data says that it's not true of games like power hitting 2 million conc what's his problem with power world sorry oh he's just saying that it doesn't matter what people say about power world because everyone loves it anyway yeah it's popular so it's good well which is funny because what if in a week's time it went to zero [ __ ] players like it's traceable that it have million examples of that happening this is what I'm saying like so many products have died as a result of controversies I don't know why we're saying that this is just it's like it doesn't work it's like well no it can work we know it can work yeah I don't think he has I don't think he has a problem with power world except that maybe he might think that some of the designs the creators might get in trouble for by Nintendo but I don't even think he thinks of that as a problem um 6,000 people liking a tweet doesn't really matter and if we didn't have this data then we'd be having a debate am I not but we don't need to have a debate because the data proves the truth and it will prove it over and over and over this kind of reminds me people say like you can't say TJ was bad he was so hyper successful or whatever when it's just like could have been more successful what if power world could have been double the numbers it's at even now without the people saying whatever they've said about it how do you know like they say stats as though it's all-encompassing like you don't have the stats on everything you know that like data is describing what's real it's not making things real well and even when we're talking about data right like the the extrapolation of what the data means can be biased throughout the whole process that's part of the thing right we can take the same data set and determine many different things out of it yeah like for example 8 million copies sold is better than 6K up votes it's like why would you you've extrapolate the day the most [ __ ] like way ever what does that even mean like over again just like it did with sweat shops just like it did with lithium batteries and just like it's doing right now with AI and in the future it will be something that we can't even imagine that will be doing the same thing and so why Bigg comp the most memoral because go back 100 years think of the insane changes there are problems now therefore it doesn't matter what is what what is there there's probably always going to be some sort of a an ethical issue we haven't solved we we we haven't created the Utopia yet or what are we what are we getting at here oh I just had a really good example up in Sinclair in the jungle right if not for that uh uh people reading oh this Sinclair in the jungle yes exactly yes yeah that's right right people not reading that and going I don't like the way that they are Mak for the audience who doesn't know what that is why don't you tell them what up Sy in the jungle is so Upton Sinclair was a journalist who wrote a book called The Jungle which is about the meat packing industry and in that book he writes about all of the various kind of gross ways that they they treat uh um meat and this was back in like 19 1930s or something um and and it was things like you know workers are getting their hands chopped off and that is ending up in your hamburgers and uh the the animals are being treated really badly and they're covered in feces and all that kind of stuff and that single book managed to completely change the way that everybody looked at food safety right because hey if there's literal [ __ ] ending up in my food I don't like that if there's people ending up in my food I don't like that and so the entire IND would you rather eat people or poop people and and well I mean wait cuz if I'm eat people that encourages a marcket of killing people to feed me hang on I don't want to eat poop either though what if no one ever knew what if it was all secret and no one ever knew that you ate them which one would you eat if you had to would you rather eat people or poop but it's prons that scare me right like I don't want to end up with that scares me disease where your brain melts I don't think either of them are good yeah I know that that's the the question is which one would you rather eat oh [ __ ] man I'm I'm eating the people yeah if I had to choose between you eating a a person or you know eating people eating also I you can recognize how many people are just not listening to the point you're making by how many have told you the book lied it's like so whether the book tells truth or tells lies the point was of how much effect it had yes correct doesn't matter what's in the book it doesn't matter at all the point is it's a single book that completely changed the entire industry uh for a hundred years right it created uh a lot of I I I don't want to say it's the Food and Drug Administration but um someone just concluded lies equal good yes yes yes the we must do we have a lot of tourists in chat today possibly yes because of as go wez you're going you guys are going to have to engage your brain you're going to kick it into at least second gear for this for this discussion I've never had chat turn against me before that's never well we knew it would happen we're talking about something that's very very hot button all right and that's okay we've done it before they're all [ __ ] morons there okay true wait and remember when Moria says all he means not all of you not all of you of course no there's lot exceptions are built into the world he says you're all idiots he doesn't mean all of you yeah when he says all of you are [ __ ] stupid clear he only met the one that he thinks are stupid this yeah yes what else is chat for if not to jump to conclusions about the discussion yay capitalism money is greater than morals this person believes that bad systems and abuse was invented by capitalism this is not true no so let me no Rags you mean yes that's not what that's not what they said is it what what's the qu they say capitalism they're not I don't think they're saying that capitalism invented immorality and stuff so when he says artists don't don't matter and they say he's correct strictly from a capitalist Viewpoint implying that the problem is that a capitalist Viewpoint doesn't value the individual or the artist it's just money causing these problems and he's going to argue that that's not true it's the individuals in the system that that create the problems by how they make use of the system which I quite like as a as a point of view I've always agreed with it um yeah I don't I don't get how the person was saying that capitalism invented those things I just said how cuz they're saying that it's it's it's a common like the problem we're dealing with here is all a commentary on where uh capitalism sends us with a mind which loads of people think like the capitalism leads you down the road of not valuing individuals or workers or whatever have you it's all the dollar the almighty dollar or as hom says the all ity all go ahead and give you an example so before capitalism we had monarchies and we had things like that wait are we just going to have to talk about a whole bunch of the political I mean we could just play economic system he's going to argue that he thinks capitalism is currently the best economic system it's not that controversial people think this if picture of the king who made the king look fat well then they'd just be dead and that's the way that it works there's never been a better system for people to express themselves than Western capitalist this is the great what do you mean what do you take a I mean I what he described wasn't an economic system made the king you got killed that's that that's not like I agree capitalism's the the best we got it's great talking about artistic expression under different economic systems and if monarchy which isn't even an economic system right that's more of a ruling like but he's just trying to say that Through the Ages that we are now in the best position for artists to express themselves I agree yes greatest mode of expression that we've ever had in the history of humanity does that mean that we can't do better no it doesn't but I I am not going to look at any other system that's been tried in the past and say that let's go back to that absolutely not true this is just a a restatement of what was it I want to say it was Winston Churchill who said um democracy is the the worst uh that we've ever had except for every other right um it's the same kind of idea and right there are plenty of problems with a hyper capitalistic model plenty of issues I think we all experience them every single day um there's no I don't understand why this comes into the equation at all though right well because I think he's trying to counter the notion that capitalism has led to artists being Trot downtrodden some somewhat but the thing is one could reply to what he's just said with I agree it is the best it's still got so many problems we need to solve or something like that you know unfortunately the Nuance which we've talked about on this 50 [ __ ] times people just do not understand Nuance it's not uh especially they would say that about you especially in the case like the medium of Twitter right like Nuance just doesn't exist there well I mean when you're limited to 24 characters for a lot of people anyway for the on yeah right you for X premium right then you can type out more what is the is there a limit for the people who pay you just go on forever I presume there has to be a limit I presume you can't post like an entire novel on Twitter do you remember I've seen some long posts though did wasn't there a time where it was like they doubled the length and everyone went crazy was like oh my God Twitter it was like 140 120 car was it was 140 was it or 120 I think was 140 I I thought it got doubled to 280 that's what I thought 12 14 yeah 140 to 280 sorry I thought it I thought it was 240 for a second you were like wait a minute half of 280 is a 140 yeah God damn it um but but yeah I mean when you can only when it was like 140 and then to 280 that's still like [ __ ] all that's that's barely anything to uh to uh to like basically delve into whatever thing you're trying to say with it's TW like Twitter encourages snark that's what you get rewarded for on Twitter if the response being as snarky as possible rather than as informed as possible yes I mean dunking on people right the whole concept of which we see here of the uh the quote retweet which I abuse plenty don't don't worry but it sort of encourages the idea of just dunking on a small snippet that you can barely see without context mind you totally just be called dunk instead of X dunk anybody does anybody to people do that because I still keep calling it Twitter it's Twitter forever I I see people saying X and I'm like what are you doing I see it crop up as U that on like articles and stuff I think they professionally speaking need to ref with his X but any Cas but it's always followed by formally known as Twitter formally known as Twitter yeah it's always Twitter just elon's retardation was like we're going to incredible branding that we got he got rid of it is it just a matter of time do you think before eventually everybody will well yeah because it will probably reach a point where people don't remember that it was called Twitter yeah I don't know does anybody call Facebook met eventually well Facebook is still Facebook the company is meta I guess that's that's true that it's not quite the same um okay what about Google and alphabet though nobody people call the no people when they refer to the company when they talk about it in like stocks and and they refer to it as alphabet Inc people call Google Google I get what you mean that people colloquially Co but go isn't Google Google is like one of the companies that's organized under alphabet right like alphabet is a conglomerate kind of like how um know Kanye West like he changed his name to ye but people still like called him kind of both and it was people say Kanye West too might be a closer one yeah or Puff Daddy well how many people call it Warner Brothers Discovery if it was like people generally just call it Warner Brothers yeah the discovery part but then again when people report on it again in like Financial you know newspapers and stuff they'll call it Warner Brothers Discovery my examples were wrong Twitter X is just that's just like a very unique one of you just changed the name dramatically yeah wait someone in chat just said uh I wasn't sure about this but then my dad told me Snickers used to be called marathons oh marathon is a different thing marathon's actually the Mars version of it um you know why it's called sckers yeah why would it be called stickers actually because that was the name of the Mars family's favorite horse oh that's cool I thought it was called the Mars Bar because of Mars like Mars yeah Marathon was UK thing or The God the one that I saw as well that was an interesting one is the Sears Tower cuz isn't it called the Willis Tower now or am I or if I mixed them up wait which the one in Chicago right what's it called now I don't know damn it yeah it's Willis Tower right but it used to be called the Sears Tower yeah that's right um but do people still but but do people still call it the Sears Tower or do they has everybody changed to calling it Willis Tower I only know it as the Sears Tower and I'm you know not old so yeah yeah cuz people say people still call it SE Tower um hin field right hin field is now Acer field I'm sure that's a similar thing that where where people who have grown up their whole lives calling it The Hines Stadium or Hines Field or whatever um or Wrigley Field if that were to change his name I imagine the same sort of thing would have oh yeah field I think that's thing Wrigley Field is a name that sticks well because it that happens with stadiums as well I think uh was cold uh yeah stadiums often change the well it depends some stadiums keep their names forever and some of them change but then you just keep remembering the old the old one existed newspaper during French monarchy even during Louis the the the 14th I'm sure that there are exceptions but do you really want to make the argument that inside of a monarchy people have more autonomy to be able to control their own wealth do depends on who you talk to I guess they're it could technically be possible I guess depends on the Monarch but probably not no also where you are in that right like if you're the Monarch yeah you absolutely oh yeah you got a lot of if you're the Monarch yeah you get a lot of freedom yeah yeah do you really think that the king and the people that were running France at the time were moral but I presume that this person would probably be not advocating for to monarchy or surom this is truly going to places that we're not going to be to we got plenty to talk about this stream we not talk about whether or not the kings and queens were Marl okay they were good people if you're if you're a monarchist in the chat oh boy good for you Lou the Sun God was right okay he right and righteous I like the sun you think that they treated artists and people that were involved with Themis the sun what's the guy in Dark Souls wait sorry what about do Souls the the Sun the pra the Sun who's that that was Louis the 14th in Dark Souls yeah no but who was he though you mean like it's lore or name I can't remember his name yeah says Solair oh right okay yeah Solair yeah wow very original hey what are you implying I'm implying that it's really original and I like it they stole it from po Pokemon no is Solera Pokemon yes what does he look like is he a goob is a yellowad is he a lad or a goober Solair poemon I hope I spelled it right images no these people were brutal animals the same as cards of Sol yeah they I don't know if it's a Pokemon [ __ ] with you I was I don't know Sol sounds like a name for Pokemon I checked and it seems that I don't think there is one I mean if there was I would have just been like yeah that one I wouldn't be surprised there's like over a thousand now there's a s Rock You Remember do you remember the gold one that was the 1,000 what the hell 100 let me get you guys a picture of this this is horeshit all right let me get I'm going to show you moreit than the keys really so this I'm to I'm going to show you a picture this isn't a meme this is actually the 1,000th Pokemon very good wow that's incredibly dumb his name is Gango goldo goldo that sounds like an Australian St name is goldo you know what I get as an impression of this is [ __ ] poochie like remember those do you remember poochies I remember poochie from itchy scratchy and poochie yeah that's what I was thinking too yeah poochie was like a like a late 90s toy I think it was like a was late 9s cartoon character that was created by Itchy and Scratchy Studios uh voiced by Homer Simpson who went back to his home planet and died on the way there yeah it feels like they would say like that this this character died on the way back to its own planet that it's no longer Cannon yep what must go now my Planet needs me just the it was just cell moving up they didn't even I didn't even lip it I have to go and his just static yeah do you remember the gag it was um do you remember it was the uh it was the Itchy and Scratchy the one where where itchy uh finally dies where scratchy gets him and how Bart and Lisa were just there eagerly anticipating it and it was real hyped up where like there was a bunch of dynamite strapped around his chest even stuck the dynamite at his eyelids and then pointed a giant rocket at him and they were eagerly awaiting this payoff they had been waiting their entire lives to see scratchy get itchy and then the nerd unplug the TV yeah oh the crust like wow they're never gonna let us show that again not in a million years the revolution if I if that wasn't the case you're mistaken if you think capitalism didn't exist within a monarchy well at a certain point you get to the like what do you mean we can just to deal with all this economic and political do do you mean the ownership of private property do you mean a free market what do you mean by capitalism I think you should Define your idea more clearly and then we you should clear you [ __ ] my God oh my God you too oh also need to ident oh my say it to himself right like somebody says money over morals uh this is the true uh this is true everywhere like no that's L literally not true true everywhere some people literally would rather do the right thing than necessarily just make money talking the concept of Charity I'm not even talking about like organizations or anything just people doing charitable things isn't that an example of moral over money I mean volunteering when you choose to do an activity for free yeah I think as long as you're not you're not like you know taking the sort of ultra um I'm doing it for for tax purposes kind of thing but not not everybody does things for money just because they live in a capitalist system yeah which means you can potentially if you want there's not as many Ro people say like virtue s you're like God everyone needs to get some faith in up sometimes people do nice things they don't want people to know that they do those nice things there's good things that happen in the world I swear I promise there's people doing good things for for good reasons if you go to countries right now that aren't capitalistic like North Korea do you think North Korea is prioritizing morals it's such an insane thing to say I can't imagine that people insane thing this dude how are you going to pick North Korea they are they literally are prioritizing morals what do you mean Kim j- wouldn't he wouldn't let you do anything that's immoral oh because it's the worst example and it it is the example well someone just said in a Twisted way you could actually say yes to that question that is the mo like for example like China is capitalistic in a lot of ways now right so like can I really use China I don't think I can uh and also China exists within a global market which is never would have thought you'd had up here from B will using AI talking about yeah you talking about China what an adventure yeah also capitalistic so that's why I chose not to use China or a Middle Eastern country I use North Korea for a specific reason I'm not really into business anymore of trying to change reality specific I don't want to change the the world uh well I do in a way but I I think that in order to change the world you have to acknowledge what it is sure and I think that so many people have intellectualized reality they're not even a part of it anymore intellectualized reality I'm inclined to agree with him on that actually yeah I I get what he means I think I get what he means people intellectualized means building a false framework of what you understand the world to be I think it's like the idea that there are so many people who are really in their own head that they're not even like fully participating in World in a bubble of people agreeing with them on so many different things and actions and claims and stuff that when they step out into any other place they're like baffled and they lose their minds like what the [ __ ] is happening here and it's like you kind of built up all of your walls and uh yeah you you've written yourself a version of Earth that just doesn't even exist uh with people values I don't agree with you and unfortunately it'll um It'll like cauterize them away from any kind of exposure to things they need to they need to see and understand well kind of like the point that he's making of grappling with the world as it is in order to move forward and solve problems rather than being like well it shouldn't be this way it's like well it is so now what now do you move forward yeah okay so much they've they've there are so many levels of abstraction away from just the simple truths of reality that they don't even live in the same world that you do and that that's yeah this is a huge problem online everyone's living in different worlds where people live in these parallel realities where they have fundamentally irreconcilable perceptions of the world and any given fact of uh on a situation it's kind of fascinating that's the problem now I'm not talking about whether something is good or bad what I enjoy doing is being able to see what is and then be able to predict what will happen because of that and how things will go I I I enjoy listening to what is this Skyrim yeah okay yeah I like it I like the rain it's nice and chill the best part of that game is the soundtrack I that that's that's what I went to do people living in their own out little for those who don't know we did a whole stream yesterday that were God's bethesa games yeah you should yeah yesterday was comprised of one activity which was e and you should be there yeah we had remember the twist remember the twist my goodness the twist is incredible we got to the end unironically this is this will I mean mly you were saying this before we started that'll be like it it's it's going to rival the Boogie stream this year yeah it'll it'll rival oldtimers as well well it'll be up there and it's in January so every it came out so early all of the other eaps are going to have to try really hard the year is uh August to August yeah early in the year in the middle of the EAP year I gotta okay EAP we're on on the EAP calendar yes I missed the twist what was it you don't want to be told the twist you you can find uh links to it in Discord or Reddit maybe but um for now it's I've I've edited it ready to go so that the [ __ ] internet break you know it's sealed but uh it's an a it was an 11 and a half hour thing so I got to upload it as soon as we're done here I'll start uploading it it's going to be a little late but it'll be up Echo Chambers oh that's always the case right I don't think anybody thinks that pure capitalism is good and of of course we don't think that that's why we have socialist systems like Social Security nobody socialist systems like social secur all right we're just let's get back to the let's get back to pal wait is that I don't think controversial if you say it's a social program and if I'm not going to yeah that would beur he said socialist system it's an interesting way to put it yeah this a lot of people do well a lot of people don't think about it in the first place so it's not really worth taking taking that into consideration the use of AI is not necessar considering things people don't think about all right um well I think about things that not thought about all the time you wander not all who wander are lost am I right all who Wonder are lost even if you believe that AI being trained by other tools is actually you're sorry by other pictures that you don't own is theft because there are plenty of people and I'll give you two different examples amarath and suzu who do only fans content who have an AI bot that can generate nudes of them for people that try to talk to them a w is so um what what did we have what okay they're uh odly fads B that have I didn't even know this that they have BS that generate nudes of them to be provided to the people who think they're talking to them and they probably talking to either a bot or somebody who works for them it's like Jesus cyber Punk it's cyber Punk but it's not cool we don't have robots and like yeah I can't have a machine gun in my liver so this this is I can't be RoboCop I can't be Adam Jensen I just there's no neon or gold it's just it's just cringe it's all cringe Beyond just the image creation imagine those Bots have like a chat component that's designed to interact with these people as if it's amaranth and then sort of process requests and it's like okay talk to an actual just I hate to theorize I'm assuming that's how he's like where do you want me and what thing do you want me to be holding and then the AI just [ __ ] forms it all it's like so weird you were probably very close to to what it actually I didn't know this was happening and I feel like I just where were the flying cause F what the do for a person where they like I'm interacting directly with her she said do then their friend is like oh that's AI That's not her how he know do you think the person just goes [ __ ] you it's real to me it's real to me they're all wrestling fans did she uh did she make like $58 million in the last like few years from that yeah the she should be able to take her pants off wasn't that the St that it was something like in four years she had made 57 million dollars yeah she's super wealthy off of it mhm she's probably got several Bots running you know man that's so weird sure yeah is that theft well no because they trained the bot with their own content so whenever you're saying Ai and generative AI your painting was such such a wide brush that you're also including things that don't necessarily fall into that category I agree with this no it's an interesting hypothetical a lot of people say that it's stolen artwork without permission it's like so would then if we if all the sources were paid for or provided by a single artist that's using the ey themselves would that then solve the problem or not it's it's well I guess uh cuz part of the conversation as well as the idea that nobody got the choice whether to opt in or opt out like that it's already like for some people it's already done right every single thing that they ever made is now incorporated into these models and it's like well okay well then I guess yeah what but then again it once again draws back to the conversation of what what do we believe that fair use SL inspiration is versus theft and is that a line that needs to be redrawn now in response to this new technology yeah now you have you have artists now who are um building measures to forcibly opt out like they call it poisoning their images basically so like an AI system will misinterpret the data somehow I I don't know how it works exactly but it basically makes it so an AI will always incorrectly skew um so it's supposed to the image and creating something new like a filter that you put on top of the image that create something form of digital right man yeah I guess so yeah by the sounds of it and that's a way to walk counter the eyes or yeah so they won't they won't be able to see what it is because they're reading it you right they're not using eyeballs so when you're looking at it optically uh you see this you know a a field but when you look at it it's just a church right and everything's a church so everything that they uh that the AI is pulling out of it is church I it's like put putting a kaleidoscope on an AI if it had eyes basically I think it's like just to sort of skew their vision of what the orig IM is so they think it's a different thing that they're ultimately making yes uh yeah pretty interesting every single AI tool that's ever existed has been trained with things that are not that thing paying for fake nudes is wild wrong those models stole images how do you know how you you don't know how the tech works I find it a little bit amusing that this is the conversation that's being had with like this nice Skyrim music in the background this many evil fantasy well I think this is sort of his this is his aesthetic I think I think for all his streams he has uh Oblivion or Skyrim or some bethesa music going makes sense it's nice and chill and I also music yeah I'm mostly fine with the whole like whether or not he's got the exact facts correct it's more introducing the ideas and seeing what people think of them right like would it it goes from being is it okay that she's doing that to okay but would it be okay if that were the case cuz it's not too far from reality I can totally buy that there are people being fed AI images of nudes to keep them in a sense that they're having a direct and intimate conversation with a girl which I I just I just feel bad and the funny thing is that's just the beginning it's all just the beginning we're going to go way further than that they steal images you are wrong you are 1,000% wrong wrong 1,000% wow that's like 10 times more wrong than being completely wrong yeah how really wrong sh my stre okay that's that's a good good attempt yeah I to be fair that's that's funny like I'll debate you come to my stream I I I appreciate the hustle sure that's difference my door is open what are you a coward who did not cons their work being used by their algorithm and then being replaced by it I I can can you explain to me what the difference is between that and another person who is a better artist than the original artist who is making art based off of that original artist art can you explain the difference to me because like I I don't see so this is something that people have super chated about as well the the skill development element and I was thinking this is something that needs to be like workshopped I think as an analogy but if you had like a rock climber who's an expert and they're training someone up and then that person creates like a robot and infuses them with all of the data of all rock climbers and then climbs that rock better than any with his robot it'll be like that's amazing that you've just created this crazy machine that does all these different things you're not a rock climber though yeah yeah yeah and they'd be like well but I I've achieved this and it's like not quite it's a different and and uh I don't know if depending on who who you talk to that would be offensive or not offensive cuz they might be completely fine with the idea of being considered something else right it AI had to learn to remove water marks and that's blant theft and I I oh yeah that that's interesting isn't it if if you train your AI to remove water marks like and that's one of the one of the AI that they're talking about uses that it it does when they were promoting it or marketing it or or showing it off or whatever was a demo one of the things they said was and it'll remove water marks and it feels like that is just kind of uh saying you know what you expect uh this to use for and in that case if you are marketing your product as something that will remove a water mark uh in order to steal it right like that is a very clear um I don't know mission statement that I can take and say yeah I don't I don't appreciate that I want to also kind of like okay sure yeah sure um nobody cares though right that's not not a great response yeah people clearly do not enough people care I guess is what he would change that to to make any difference but I still don't think that that's I mean only takes a few people to maintain the programs right so it doesn't even every person who does care hopes that they can make more people care by making more people aware of it right and that goes the same for every single value everyone has all over the Earth really you imagine I imagine the line is drawn at like 50% where like if you have more people complaining about it than PE Than People ingesting the content then all of a sudden it's a problem but not before that I'll be right back that's a really shitty moral framework though the only reason I don't know where he draws the line I just I figure that's like the place to draw it in lie of him actually saying so but if that's what he's saying right like I it's only moral if everybody disagrees with it then that's not very moral is it not quite I think it's moral is what he's going to force just that it change won't happen that's the problem there's a lot of words that that uh sometimes I want to blame English but I also want to blame asmin gold for the use ofs if somebody found out that somebody used AI it's not going to decrease their enjoyment about it it might it could it might yeah Absol it could cuz um the nature in which how a thing was made it it can have all kinds of effects on your enjoyment I thing or it might have zero I completely understand sometimes it can make you like it more sometimes it can make no difference sometimes it can I think that what we've seen online we've seen many examples of this I don't know how many people in chat have but like people posting AI Works being like hey man this is if this this is if Wes Anderson made lord of the rigs and lo of people like [ __ ] you go away it's like Jesus what when I didn't do nothing like get out of here AI someone pointed out an example remember secret invasions intro that [ __ ] that show up big time that was probably the biggest controversy even though it had [ __ ] drax's arm that was probably a bigger controversy yeah secret Invasion like that that was I feel like that doomed the show before it doomed it like with its writing before before episode 6 came out you know it was already [ __ ] because of that intro just because you say something is stolen doesn't mean that everybody else in the world has to care about it no I don't but but they might very much care about it and then more people will care about it and then eventually cares so much about it in the case of I feel James summon is really good actually as an example he runs away and deletes the whole Channel which was an immense effect he's gone he even tried to come back and apologize and it went so badly he ran away again like he's like oh [ __ ] that didn't work I think he said something like um I'll come back and apologize when I'm less em tionally compromised or something when I think what everyone seems to believe is just like there's not much you can say other than yep you got me it's about it and then you I guess you could say sorry I understand what you're saying but you still have to have other people care about it in order for it to be true and so I'm just going to keep going you've made it you've made a judgment oh this is stolen let me give you an example I'm living on stolen land the Native Americans had this and then we came over here and killed them and now it's our land well we're not going to be giving that back and at the end of the day nobody gives a [ __ ] I don't even have people do give a [ __ ] I don't want to touch this with a [ __ ] 10 foot pole okay like this is not the example I would have gone with doesn't what a terrible terrible example like I I okay but out of respect for you mer there is no function I'm not going to hey you know it's it's fine for you there are people who care there are there are people who would disagree about the nature of it there there off the amount say the people care quite a bit yes yes information will create that will not change anything everybody knows it's true and nobody cares and if you think that you do go give your house away to a Native American family and leave the what the [ __ ] are you talking about this is what we would talk about with the binary of caring like if you care then you do that it's like well no you could care and not do that if you do that doesn't mean you have to do that [ __ ] country but nobody's going to do that because you don't really care that's I just I I fundamentally disagree you fundamentally disagree too present yourself as if you are sympathetic to the situation while simultaneously benefiting from its existence that's just the way way that it is is stealing okay if you don't sell it it's it depends I agree with that is steeling okay if you don't sell it's like well is steeling okay is a complicated one in general MH so people are targeting specific artists and using their names as actual prompt phrases to create the art AI just meshes a bunch of pieces together it's not creating anything new uh a human being can also create art from Pure creative individuality and a an AI algorithm cannot exist without thousands of art that it scrapes um yeah you're right I I I'm not sure if I understand what your point is there are always going to be people that are trying to Define what art and what art is and what is art what art is not excuse me nobody has a monopoly on telling anybody else what art is it doesn't matter what you believe art is because like for example I've seen a lot of Modern Art and Modern Art looks like my room it looks like the garbage on my table but somebody else doesn't think that I mean really the picture of his his room is kind of odd it is kind of actually yeah there's a lot of fascinating things to draw from it I there's a story that's told in that bit I guess I agree with him on the subject of uh everybody's got an opinion on what art is and the even though I I might completely disagree with the category we have the most like expensive artworks in the world of things that I'm like what that's barely dissimilar from a pile of poop on the floor like I I I I understand this point of view sure and I'll go back to the example that I used before of Jackson Pollock it took me a long time to understand the value or understand that other people see value in something like a Jackson Pollock painting it took you a long time to understand that people find Value in it it took me like a an in like the speed of thought because like someone just said I find Value well no it's like they if someone says I find I think Jackson Pollock's really interesting and I really value his work and what it means to me and I'm like all right well yeah under that uh payview I suppose there's no difficulty in understanding people getting value in everything but even we would still have have equivalence of that being like you know people saying for example like oh it's so I just I love Thor of and thunder I adore that movie we be like really you know I can get it tell you why they well they can try I suppose I what I'm trying yeah I'm trying to imply like they they would just say uh Good Vibes because they wouldn't have much meaning or substantive things to say about the movie because there's so little in it but at the same time I I guess I get that anyone could love anything it did like all the Squig a long time to figure out why I think he's probably talking about a span of years that like covers him being a kid where he would be like I don't know it just look I don't I don't I almost don't don't think this is that unreasonable I think people can look at Jackson Paul and be like what the [ __ ] and then almost don't believe that people actually value anything in it and that it's all done through like high-end art stuff like this's business [ __ ] going on that everyone's telling each other it's worth something but then he actually meets a person who says like no Jackson Pollock paintings as that guy we covered right he like it's a fusion of pure emotion it's a delving into the human soul when you hear that you're like oh okay I'm sure there are people in the chat right now who would uh uh say unequivocally that they don't like modern art or doesn't matter it's stupid or whatever um so you know and I find quite a lot of value in uh lots of Modern Art so I I absolutely agree with that we we thr that up there are some mod not pieces that are really [ __ ] cool then there are some you just like what the [ __ ] what is this like [ __ ] around you taking the piss and then there's those law ones you have to read the book and then you can appreciate the art you're like okay f fine I guess [ __ ] bring po into into the example right there's something about standing in front of a Jackson Pollan realizing that it is in fact 12 feet wide and 10 feet tall people say this I I no it's fine go ahead no it's fine I guess it's just I guess I guess the fact that it's a big canvas that I I don't know I guess I don't assign the the same like being impressed with it that a lot of other people do sure so I mean not yeah go ahead yep I'm I'm just going to say is it's not that I mean that the canvas itself is Big O look at that it's about the fact that you are are seeing a Monumental effort of work and you're realizing the many uh um you know days months years that go into it uh you're talking earlier about the the soul of the artwork right and realizing that and kind of uh connecting to the art through that that's what I mean is standing in front of this piece of artwork can often be the difference between seeing it on a computer screen going it's not super impressive and then standing in person going oh no that is very impressive and you know for Pollock at least I think that that is something that tends to be kind of missing from the the discussion yeah I um I don't think if I was in front of a Jackson Pollock piece I would I'd think any more of it which is totally fine too page it's subjective so I don't think that you're in any position to say what is or is not art because I can guarantee you you might think that you know there's a lot of people that go to church that probably don't think that your background picture is Art what what are we doing specifically people who go to church people go to church might not think your background picture is Art I don't think this is surprise to anybody yeah but they'd be wrong and [ __ ] like I don't know like okay well that's the thing about this statement is like if he's just establishing their everyone's got a different opinion on what his art it's like yep they that means everyone can equally say what isn't isn't art not that no one can I guess that's a perspective thing but yeah I I imagine he'd say yes I agree file pictures art but I bet that you probably do and and that's just and and and you're not wrong and neither are they because art is subjective I wouldn't put it like that in some ways so if people say AI is Art then it is the issue isn't defining art it's the theft of scraping thousands of art pieces on the net without I just feel like that D values are if it's is the only requirement is it is what when you say it is yeah I'm fine with that under the pressure of um just saying I draw meaning from this thing you're like yeah sure but saying something is an art workk or whatever I feel like we have to reduce the C a little bit before it just becomes everything and anything to then replace the artist an artist can create without seeing other art an AI generator cannot that's actually a really interesting thought I think that humans can generate art technically without any kind of visual or oral exposure to anything but a a bot can't or at least Bots as they currently stand can't well what about an artist that doesn't that creates after seeing other art like I I think that you're kind of talking around my point if an artist is able to use something as an inspiration to create their own thing that thing that they've created is derivative of the thing that originally exists and so on a fundamental level you're saying that AI isn't art because it's derivative and is this yeah but again not a binary no I think it's it's probably about the process and what goes into it right well but and and still if we're going to say like the directly copy and pasting something versus drawing it from memory versus thinking about the idea of the thing and drawing it these are all different levels of derivative right you wouldn't say that they're all derivative I feel like that's not very useful this also not art because it is derivative do you see kind of my point here please explain what inspiration is and how yeah I see his point I just don't agree with it he's saying that the all of them are derivative sort of if you're going to say that AI art is derivative because it's made of different pieces of art when remember his point from earlier is that humans do the same thing they create art from art they've seen previously or inspired by it's just the that's the fundamental distinction difference that a lot of people that's like almost the fundamental of the discussion on AI how it's comparable to an algorithm uh it I I think it depends right so I actually don't think that the human brain is that much different from a computer now the human brain is infinitely more advanced than a computer but I think that it's fundamentally the same thing in a lot of ways um so I don't believe in this like uh that's like kind of like a the thing right is that whether or not you agree or disagree with that idea it's probably going to have a big impact on what you think about this topic yeah um well for example rag you you're mentioning um synthetic people right in fiction being replicants that that there would be computers that are essentially they've replicated so hard a human brain you can barely tell the difference and then if someone swaps the sentiment of so in a way a human brain is just a really complex computer like I guess yeah this is all again a context thing because when you just State the human brain is essentially just a computer I could see everyone being like that's [ __ ] then I could also see everyone being like H yeah kind of it really depends on that's all I'm learning from this whole thing is how much everything is couched in all other language and accounting for everyone's interpretations of the words you're using yes yeah Ian it's like we were talking about earlier if you just boil everything down to electrical o impulses like a circuit board has transistors and capacitors on it transistors direct a flow of electricity one to another that sort of represents a choice and then you have a capacitor that either holds a charge or doesn't which is basically a true or false statement yes or no and like if you can say a brain is basically doing that same sort of thing on that level but he's saying he's doing a weird thing here where he's saying they're basically the same but the brain is infinitely more complicated like if it's that be confusing I assume he just means that my PC is infinitely more complicated than a calculator from 20 years ago and then my brain is infinitely more complicated than my computer currently is you know what I mean like that they're all scaling um right but I get what you're saying it's like well if you think they're the same but also one of them is way more complicated than if it sounds like they're not the same and then and then you know there are some people arguing from a sense of like there's things you're missing from a human brain in a computer replicating it you'll always be missing sort of thing but then again again that's what fre was saying it comes down to a fundamental belief at this point about what the human brain even is um it's funny he he said this to Aid in Clarity when I think this is only going to draw people into further camps that are like like what you can't say this pretty much right like in the cases of our brain what is directing the direction of those you know electrical impulses why is electricity flowing from one part of the brain to the other what's sort of guiding it you know in the case of a computer it's like Mouse clicks it's or a boot process or whatever yeah that's it you know what the nature of human consciousness is like this in the case human brain is some superseding controller that's like at the point of the infinite or beyond the infinite you know if we can just figure out the nature of the human brain and the replication of human consciousness we can then decide whether to support pal W yes you know oh well because it comes from your mind that it's so much different than a computer most people's minds work in ways that computers work no yes they do computers connect information together and that's what your mind does as well well [ __ ] whenever yeah it's a little little simplest well I guess I guess he's right you think about things you synthesize information together to come to a coherent thought that's fundamentally what AI does as well in a very abstract sense see your point when well if it's in a very abstract sense then we're talking about something different this what I mean I think when you get to these conversations like those little abstract wordss or whatever the words being used like that just like yeah I feel like that's doing a lot of Leaping cuz I'm someone who believes that eventually we'll be able to create an AI that no one be able to tell Is Not a Human Being interact like the worry with chat GPT and stuff already but then at the same time it's like would I then consider that dis entirely similar to a um a human brain or not which again I feel like is the the realm of what Som was hyper trying to address and figure out I understand the conversation it's just that uh I I feel like maybe this is a little clunky as a it's a thought process and it's going to make everyone even more confused on what he's trying to say to defining art being open for discussion I'm not the thing is like I'm not mad at the people that are disagreeing with me I I'm not mad at them I'm not like I I'm like I'm not mad at you I'm not I'm not like this isn't something that I'm upset about I'm just having a conversation about it cool I don't know why other people are getting so mad to be honest with you you you haven't pieced up together yet I was going to say I feel like maybe been able to piece that together yet man he he he does surely know like a lot of people take very Grand UMD to this because it it represents like a serious blight on the World to them depending on their particular views um I mean like yeah like the like he's always going to have you know stuff like based on what he does yeah he probably doesn't have to worry about any of this stuff but some people actually have like a stake in this well I mean I not even saying necessarily you have to have a stake in it you could you could just be worried from a philosophical point of view about the future of humanity and stuff that too yeah I guess that counts as having a staking it was like yeah I guess so the future of humanity yes but there it is you're basing on a level where people aren't going to understand well if people don't understand it that doesn't make me wrong should probably youate better Define things you can explain what you mean when you say the words that probably will help a bit you're really wrong about the brain being a computer what about it is wrong as a paramedic uh it's not necessarily true the way you think about computers are binary integrated they have to think in dos and don'ts brains have multiple chemicals a lot of this is going to come down to like the technicalities of different processes and how yeah because the response to anyone's uh assessment of what is in a brain that a computer can't recreate the response would be but could it simulate it and then usually the answer would be like well if yes then how would you know ultimately and then what is this is almost coming into theory about whether or not we could be simulations and you're like ah it's too much from my brain all at once I can't take it ways to each other you're right that the brain isn't the exact same thing as a computer but I said that your brain functions in a lot of same ways that the computer does a lot of same ways you said connects information so they're basically the same that's true it's not the exact same thing and I think that in 200 years somebody will be able to make a computer that thinks like a human brain I think that it's inevitable to be honest with you I can't imagine anybody thinking that it won't happen then I kind of agree on function but it's not really the same it's buffering for me sorry oh not doing that for me so somebody else responds and they say a crowbar is a tool that's no excuse to use it don't know if I've ever had that on watch together before watch together is being real weird today it I'm going to refresh my page I'm going to do that fair enough I shall wait for a moment Jordan Peterson would have an aneurysm look at Asma Gold's room yes that's just y never mind the discussion just the room remember lobsters lobsters clean their room okay Mobsters clean the room and love their M like Jord Mobsters Oh I thought you said mobsters no lobsters clean their room hermit crabs certainly clean their room because they it's on their back I think I think Mobsters probably do as well a lot of them uh probably yeah not when they're super into the Coke and they take all the Coke and then they let their room degrade and that's evidence that the coke is evil want to make sure everyone understands that and also are you all reloaded I didn't reload but I mean I'm good if you're good then you're good happen then I kind of agree on function but it's not really the same okay so somebody else responds and they say a that's that for that discussion it is just like this is way too complicated it's just like okay fine I think he realized like this isn't helping so I'll just move on to this R is a tool that's no excuse to use it to burgle houses is it same goes with AI it's a thief's tool and when it uh so what's interesting already say all burgling is house involves a house in a sense cuz Burg comes from the German for house Thief so this is a very bad choice to compare cuz it's so you can tear this apart like a crowbar is a tool that's no excuse to use big houses it's like okay but a crowbar could also just like you could use anything to burgle you don't need a you know what I mean like I could use like a [ __ ] a Game Boy to smash a window if I really wanted to I guess um and then saying like it's a thief's tool the the AI like but according to your narrow it's most about how we use it so yeah like it's it should not be acceptable like and then and then it comes into the complication of like but what if I'm stealing something back what if I'm stealing it's like that's not what like I know but it's just you don't want to make an analogy that makes things more complicated and it should not be acceptable if AI piracy is okay then media piracy also is why should I pay for something that's stolen from artists circular reasoning the guy responds back um a crowbar is a tool that can be used by thieves AI is a tool that can also be used by thieves AI can be used in many ways most artists who complain about AI art theft are furry artists who can't charge $15 for their commissions anymore there I said it I can't believe how F how many FES got mad at me today it was crazy nothing's original anymore there probably a lot of artists I don't I don't know what F thing is being that I I don't see I think is probably a lot of artists might be concerned in some way yeah fur is just weirdly narrow it I mean yeah it's I it's more just forun probably just be like see we can dunk on furries that's an easy dunk you know those FES we're making them angry so it is an easy do that's you got you got to get better representation okay in media you need more diversity you need more Fu media they're a bunch of [ __ ] crazy cringe weirdos oh now it's buffering for me all right hang on I need to refresh use models jeez wow yeah I don't know it's strange I've never had I don't think I've ever had watch together buffer who knows but it seems to be fine with me I reloaded and it worked fine so I have reloaded control arguments the person not the tool or the tool or the person yeah exactly by the way whoever makes like a good watch together you could you know you could there's you know if you're out there yeah you could someone could make like a a good watch together that has a non-shit UI design and you know pretty you know functions well and stuff like that there are like 15 Alternatives in the r remember that time where we tried a bunch of them and they were horrible they were all were terrible and they just didn't do the basic thing mhm there's one comment uh you're worth what anyone is willing to give you anything else is just fantasy wow the philosophers Twitter today geez I'm not even like assessing whether or not he's right just like a fundamental like what a what a lame quote it's so depressing like you're only worth what people are willing to give you anything else is fantasy like damn have some selfworth you know believe in yourself recognize your own value you don't need to get it from other people a lot of artists throughout history died in poverty I guess they weren't worth anything oh hey little girl with cancer I just want you to know that you're worthless because you're not making money Bas get a job loser good thing we have rich people to do the right thing and help her oh wait you're still in a fantasy land where those people are supposed to give their own money to make people happy that's not life that's fantasy what's happening here yeah the guy just said I'm so confused like so this person um is obviously totally [ __ ] right um you know obviously like nobody has a uh you know the moral Authority unless you have the government do it uh to uh just go take some else's money and give it to another person right that's just how it is and this is another response that a person has made obviously you're correct but your explanation wasn't great metaphors with physical items work better if an AI Chef oh yeah I really like this example I wanted to show it to you guys uh if an AI Chef existed and could make the best tasting meals instantly and for cheaper no one would ever pick a human chef or they would that's not true though I mean we actually talked about that with the replic AI Chef existed well so the thing about what's happened uh that we've seen already and this is in a lot of sci-fi media too is that if people know that it's nonhuman the thing that's being created then they automatically don't want it they're just like H get away from me it's like you wouldn't care if it's amazing it's like no the point is that as soon as they're made aware and they want to be aware they don't want to encourage they don't want to involve themselves in artificially created things you know it could be could be food could be artworks could be whatever have you you get you get a there's a group of people who will be a very to the synthetic people that's always portrayed in the Sci-Fi stuff right it's like yeah you disgust me you're not you're you're a perversion of humanity that sort of stuff so yes if there was an AI Chef that existed and he could make the best tasting meals instantly oh sure loads of people would be signing up to get that food but not everyone a lot of people would be like I'll go with the like you know in Star Trek like there's a great value placed on manually making food yourself even though you know food is like Limitless resource and it's all delicious I mean the whole being able to do it by hand owning an actual Winery and that stuff has value it's still you know the real deal is always going to have some element of um genuine n what what's the word I'm looking for the having the quality of being genuine genuinity genuin yeah but I was wondering if there was like like a a version of the word genuine that was that that was like a you know what I mean like genuine authenticity yeah yeah yeah what but but I was curious if there was like a specific like genuine point being but yeah the for like of a b term you know authenticity that comes with you know the real thing the actual getting a pan heating it up having a person there to you know smell it taste it make sure it's good the skill that goes into that and of course the the personal element of it's like yeah your kids's drawing is really shitty yeah we know but we're still going to put it on the fridge cuz it you know has a lot of sentimental value and it it's good to the person to you know treat those things with value and to encourage them you know it's yeah maybe when it comes to like creating dishes there's some cases where the ingredients are flawed and is the AI going to be able to detect and work around that like can you compare that can you equate equivocate an AI system to the eye of a chef or they they're able to look at a stake and it's just like oh you what I'm going to like cook this like an extra minute or like a minute less or something whereas like an AI is looking for certain signatures to make it switch from like a a binary state of like keep doing this thing or like do the next step in the cooking process like you need to consider like how sophisticated is the programming you know like what's it looking for what's the AI looking for when it's like cooking these things sometimes cuz they do cool tricks and stuff like that at certain restaurants but yeah in a general I mean yeah that could be another thing sure like but I guess an AI could do programmed for the cool cool tricks too all sense this is true and that's what's so crazy about it as a chef agreed yeah exactly performance chefs are wild the assault Bay there you go nobody likes that guy so that's you know kill two birds with one stone right there you go and so anyway uh that's completely different um is this a person who is okay this is another Ardent disagreer in chat why is it different data scientists here the tech doesn't steal images it just learns the natural distribution patterns that are representative of your descriptions the way that you say it makes me think that you're right and I I bet you're probably right but I don't have enough education in that to be able to to say oh yeah it's so true yeah that's fair as far as I'm aware as well there's all kinds of ways that AI uh art works you know they all have different systems behind them and they take from different sources it's hard to be definitively clamping down on any one topic or other I guess it's easier to do it by topic rather than by actually referencing any of these individual systems cuz most people aren't familiar with exactly how any of them work we're rather just talking about the theory but I I think that you're probably right on that it doesn't matter how much an artist thinks the AR is worth if people don't want to buy it it's the same with any other product like in relation to how much I guess they could sell it for sure but I just want to make sure that we're all okay with the the whole thing of like finding value in your own work is still very valuable good for you as an individual like I said he eventually mentions personal value versus market value which I really feel like would have helped if he had done that to begin with yes I it it's as I said it's astonishing to me that like I'm getting any push back for this it's just the truth and we all know it every day still don't get why I mean I don't think you should be astonished that you're getting push back on this well didn't he say at one point that um uh he could have presented it better but that by presenting it the way that he did it got people angry and more infused into the conversation more aggressive you know like he's implying that there's a strategy to being less communicative too well people can get mad about me all they want I'm I'm totally okay with that so a chef makes food true and AI can follow a recipe whereas art is not exactly Bound by rules and as it's pure inspiration as I said in previous statements AI or machine learning is completely based on copy and paste logic you're right in some things but detail is missing as you're saying to be fair okay so let's go ahead and address this so an AI is following a recipe which is created by copy and pasting what a human does I'm not sure that these two things follow AI machine Le it's complet based in copy bed logic yeah so this is the same thing right like I I don't know it's not humans can make art without ever seeing anything yeah but humans have seen things so like we're not yeah but that's a bad that's a bad then also some humans have not seen things so we're not talking about we're talking about like well I imagine what he means is like if you look at a you know cave painting it's like ah look at that you know there had to be a first one right um I guess you'd say well yeah but I mean they saw the deer or whatever when they saw it and then they draw it on the cave yeah and and so that would be which I get which is an interesting point in terms of identifying that you know at nowadays like if you exist now um then you've definitely seen a lot of art you've seen it you've definitely seen it just by existing and then there's the stuff that you like that is particularly interesting to you that then informs you know if you want to start drawing or painting the kinds of things that you want to make um and then obviously there's the things that you just see naturally right a big part of being good as an artist is having good observational skills that you can look at things and think of ways to present them that are either you know lifelike or cartoonish but still bear some resemblance to reality but at some point you have to draw it back to the first person who decided to draw something ever um and they would have done it without having seen any art before made by humans kind of if then the that that's the point is just the even even him looking at a landscape or a deer or whatever it's just it's just reference imagery taken from something else and that's what it all is like oh but then what if it comes from a blind deaf person's imagination I'm sure there's a blind deaf artist out there oh yeah there's got to be I'm sure they exist like you're talking talk about a theoretical like we've all seen things I mean maybe if you're Helen Keller or something like that sure or just a blind person don't you could be blind there's a lot of blind people as far as I'm aw like you know not not a significant portion of the population but a lot of people and surely several of them are artists or have at least dabbled General sense we've all seen things and the things that we see influence what kind of art we would make what is this what are we talking about draw a picture of something you've never seen yeah I can't well wait we do that a lot draw a picture of something you've never seen yeah unless he means just tell you can ask someone draw something you never seen and they'll be like okay and they just come up with something crazy yeah um because someone could be like yeah but okay so draw something you never seen and you draw like a five-legged creature and it's like yeah but that's just based off of four-legged creatures you've added one it's like okay so when you say draw something I've never seen you mean draw something that's not even within our universe cuz like in theory I guess I could still do that right like Draw Something I'm not even going with love crafting as some people are suggesting it's like I I mean if I drew I'm trying to think of like as long as it doesn't match any structure or creature in the universe known universe like it would count I guess like you know like people like Giga it's like if if you go with alien like ah yeah but that's two-legged two armed so that's close enough to a human that it's just a variation on that like yeah you want some frame of reference two arms like okay but I also can't be two legs like are you just going to change it every time I draw something well yeah if I drew a mass of tentacles then they're like wow that's just kind of like a weird octopus like so what what I don't really know what you mean then because uh if it can't be I guess Lovecraft is the only answer because it would be have to be something that can't be described and it can only not be described because there's no reference to it in the our universe that could make it more understandable for a person yeah but at that point that just seems self-defeating as a like that doesn't add anything to the conversation like draw something that is is unrecognizable it's almost like saying draw something that can't be viewed MH yeah well how do you know what's unrecognizable like I'm thinking about like the example of somebody being blind and deaf like that's so much sensory input that's like being locked off but like presumably a person in that position could like still touch and feel things but is that enough to sort of inform them of like how to artistically create something you know like I don't know yeah I don't know um if it's just a matter of make like when you say make something that isn't recognizable was like wait do we mean like in The Meta unrecognizable or like with drawing like I don't know what you've drawn or that I don't know you have drawn what about Jackson poock if if he showed you his pains and he said I've drawn something oh sure yeah that's fair point yeah because what do I say to that like well that that's clearly the abyss like or something like I recognize that's a that's a swamp with a bunch of blood in it I recognize that that's the that's a good point because in my example I was sort of thinking of art with some recognizable form to it but there definitely of course like formless art abstractionist stuff yeah we've gone way into the theoretical that's what we do can't type into python python inspiration do you think that one day you will yeah maybe can I also address what you said about the theoretical of course yeah and also I mean I can type into stable diffusion snake and it can make a snake uh if the point of an AI Chef is to make food cheaper that's great but I think the argument is that AI chefs couldn't innovate like human chefs can an AI Chef can't innovate like a human chef can so you're again you're getting attached to the minutia of the process of a product that might necessarily be that might necessarily be true in some instances uh because if uh if a if a if a construct of some kind an AI construct doesn't have the ability to taste or it doesn't have the physical receptors in order to do that then it literally might just lack the capability to do a thing in much the same way that a machine that doesn't possess like any like limbs cannot move it's something it literally cannot do yes yeah presumably it's all constructed so we know what it's capable of down to individual components right in programming yeah yeah like you're not going to accidentally give a construct like that the ability to smell and taste like that's not going to happen accidentally as you design it it will be something that you program it with a capability of knowing how it deploys those Sensations though is another thing entirely if it did have them part the interesting thing about that though is that programmers would upon iteration iteration ation try to simulate that it's like you know say for example it's like how do you simulate an imagination in a human it's like I don't know you picture a bunch of things but they're kind of weird versions and that's where you start and then you're like that's the result we've got it's like that's weird and it clearly has a problem of doing this and it's like we we cut that out and we add some more things in and you know that's just how they go for however many years until they actually generate something that we're like oh that looks kind of like what an imagination would be and you know that just goes the same for all the different things of humanity I think that a lot of people think are human restricted like um well uh inspiration I suppose sure I imagine with the chef example like you have programmers who will just talk to a chef and be like okay what would you do with this dish it's like okay well I do this I do this I look at this ingredient i' evaluate this and that and then I do that and then he would be just writing all that down in something called pseudo code which is basically just like a Layman's English version of all the lines of instruction that are going to eventually be programmed into the final like code right so it's like if this condition is true do this do this do that and then you just transform each of those lines into an actual code that a that a a program can recognize or like in a language that a program can recognize right what I'm telling you is that here I I I can make a chart and maybe this will make it easier for people the green part is the part that the customer cares about this part the customer doesn't care about so this entire thing sometimes often times and I think that there's some things that all customers do actually care about in the process of making something that you could provide like an extreme hypothetical or just the reference to how in the west there's a couple of things that are just absolutely unacceptable like like in kit mother and I forced her to make this under threat of death and torture yeah or well rat in the kitchen people consider that absolutely unacceptable and and you'd be like they won't care if the food's good it's like they will though a lot of people just will it there's a big old poop in the kitchen like [ __ ] that I ain't e in here yeah you guys know that like collectively as a society we all decided to stop watching The Bill Cosby Show if um I could imagine that if somebody was I don't know if a chef he dropped a stake and let's say somehow he picks it up a literal millisecond after it hits the ground and then the robot uh comes along and says yep there is nothing wrong with this steak I feel like a lot of people still wouldn't want to have that steak that fell on the ground yeah a lot of people will be able to recognize that it's okay just makes them feel icky yeah even if there was literally nothing wrong with it like that there was absolutely zero contamination a maybe a subset of the robots programming can scan the steak and be like oh no germs detected and then throws the steak away and gets a new one the 5c rule you could program into robots steak was recovered 4.6 seconds you know after you know after dropping GNA keep an eye on chat after I say this but Precious Precious guests my my my precious cast here would you ever maybe could you imagine someone maybe eating some bread and looking at it and noticing there could very well be maggots in it and then they continue eating it I can imagine that happening yeah I I I do not I wouldn't do that myself no but I can imagine yeah I can imagine creatures who might eat Maggy bread for three stinking days I mean it's possible that such a thing exists yeah is not relevant to a sale now the there are exceptions like farmers markets and and again usually Farm farmers markets people the reason why people go to farmers markets is because the end product is actually better uh it's actually not just because they want to support local farms uh it's also because that the product maybe I don't I don't I don't actually know I think that those cross actions would exists that's fine but we've also acknowledged the existence of the people who just do it to support the local people you see that all the time in all kinds of ways support your local creators support local people support fundamental like Sal the Earth people doing local things like yeah you see that all the time businesses I disagree with the idea that they only ever do it if they think they're getting a better product as well like no not necessarily obviously well I I'm happy to say there's a van diagram but there's there's those that exist that just do it to support the uh the stores or whatever better and it might taste better to them so this is the problem that people on Twitter don't really seem to understand they think that this matters uh this is what people care about so I agree with you car yeah that's just wrong no one cares it's just the fact that they care means well some people do care then cuz they do and then if you switch the post to some care be like well not an insignificant amount in any way shape or form and especially because the only way to get it is to be a significant amount is for the insignificant to begin the [ __ ] role is it exactly I mean if the attitude was that well if it's an insignificant amount you know based on my definition of significant or insignificant so don't even do anything then I guess very little would be achieved ever if people followed through on that uh advice I just I love that Ms paint image like it's an academic PowerPoint presentation or something there's just a big chunk of a pie chart it's like nobody cares about this part I well I don't think he would want to he's presented that way I actually would prefer more people do that present it because diagrams could be really helpful to understand what they see when they say the things they say yeah I definitely see the utility in just sketching something something out for people for sure just I just find it funny that's all knowing that a human know what they are doing especially with r with art to any degree art music you name it whereas with robots AI or whatever there is no admission of that truth you get what I mean I agree about the customer but if I'm the in the court with Sony over it they're going to Care again you're right but I think the other side has a point and they're not it's not that their point isn't invalid it's that their point is unpopular and it is not the resounding opinion of the general audience so you think that well another element of this is that he derives opinion from action when we don't actually it's not quite the one to one as in like you clearly don't care because you bought X thing and a lot of people would tell you like I do care but I don't have like much choice in terms of what I can spend my money on because of how poor I am for example and they weigh it up in a moral sense and they choose what they consider to be the less for two evils what I'm trying to establish is just that the care exists it's just Modified by other cares not necessarily that they don't care if yeah if like you're saying if you don't have as much money to spend then the price of a cheaper object is going to be almost entirely decided on the process that made it that way like someone said then you don't care enough well at that point that's that's down to talking to the individual and whether or not you even agree and whether or not you would make the samec ision in the same uh circumstance you know this kind of comes down to would you steal a loaf of bread to feed feed your family like I mean probably yeah yeah absolutely I'm selfish and I have a self-centered worldview I think that most people have what I refer to and I think this is It's not what I refer I didn't invent this I think that other people have referred to this as well uh they have a self-referential worldview so everything in their life and their values and opinions and everything that they think is referring back to their own beliefs and their own life so if things are not beneficial for them then that doesn't matter they don't care about it if it is then they do care about it and so everything in their life and all of their opinions and actions are self-referential I think he should have said if it affects you in a significant way you care about it if it doesn't you don't yeah because yeah there there are things that just don't at all affect me in any way and when I hear about them I'm like oh I'm glad that exists yeah that's I mean how many times have you learned about a new animal that just like lives on the other side of the world in the jungles of Asia and you it doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever and then someone's like hey have you heard about the Kiki cheeky bird I'm like no I I haven't and then you see him you're like oh that's I'm glad that that exists what's funny is we get many super chats that relate to extinct animals and we're just like oh wow look at that it's like that animal's not even alive why do you care like I don't I don't know he's neat yeah even if I had no interaction with the keky cheeky bird I feel like if I saw a picture of it I'd be like oh that looks cool like wowly it's like just you could you could tell as you open up the the picture and look at it you're like yeah yeah I with a name like that I know he he'd look like that yeah I can tell he's boy yeah that is so a ky cheeky bird if I someone said uh and then you forget about it almost immediately and it's like I've forgotten more things that I care about than I care about I mean I I'm not going to stop learning about and enjoying things on the risk of I won't on my deathbed remember it well it could be tomorrow the one of you guys tell me about some franchise that I should be invested in it and then a week later I'm more invested in than most franchises and it's like yeah and at the same time it could be a a movie that I said was really awesome you know in two years time I've forgotten most of it and I'm like oh [ __ ] yeah I don't really care about that like yeah all the time don't have value just cuz I don't remember them for a very long time if the picture of the Kiki cheeki bird only gives me joy for four minutes and then I actually do forget about it he's like well I'm glad that I had that little like hey that was nice that was fun well yeah especially when compared to um oh did you know the old Richie down in the store he actually um he he he bought a briefcase today you're like I don't I don't care you're like okay okay fine I just you know it's fine I guess I care about it I'd be interested I'd be like well oh like why like why did you tell me this what this is a fairly mundane well that's see that's the interesting thing like why'd you bring that up what's going on and and if if only to prove that there's things that I could say that you don't care about I have accidentally proved that you care about everything I say because they're not referencing a principle they're not referencing an ideal they are referencing what they want to do you're anilist I want to do my principles my ideals though that's a strange way to word it also I hesitate to call anyone an nihilist I just say the the I could understand why people would would fear that we're entering nihilism with some of the stuff that he said it's like the [ __ ] you it's all meaningless nobody makes a difference nobody matters until the market decides you do it it feels very defeatist almost like oh yeah yeah it's not an attitude that I would want to have or one others and he would say like whoa no no no and then he talk about like the proactive steps to make in a environment like that but like I said I understand how people could get there but I wouldn't call this nihilism what he said he he I think he would prefer that we call him a realist self-centered me very there's a lot there's a lot of cynicism that gets flagged as nihilism when they need to be parsed you know cism has for comedy for instance you know is it better to be a cist or a nihilist cist cynicist I think yeah yeah but at the same time nihilism is just like you don't like you think we're just all on a downward trajectory and there's no hope and like there's no what I thought nihilism was that nothing means anything it's all meaningless it's like nihilism is like nothing matters and cynicism would be like oh well I guess my my definitions are off that's that's pretty much what I was getting at yeah nothing means anything like what what's the point in having any sort of ambition to to do anything if everything sucks well what what you wait for with nihilism is and so like as in taking that where do you go next you know that's what the you want to ask the individual they might say nowhere cuz nothing means anything they might also go into absurdism or existentialism or one of the other bonus boys that can be drawn out of uh experiencing nihilism for a little bit but you know what I guess what I'm trying to say is don't worry if you're a nihilist we don't judge you everyone's welcome here if you know if you're an iist it doesn't matter so don't worry about it is true are a lot of people I know and interact with I'm not interested in people trying to pinpoint down my viewpoint on things my viewpoint is not Rel somewhat interested in that yeah I'm decently interested in people understanding what I think and why I think it I think part of I mean it's really helpful if you're in this line of work that we do especially because we're sort of in a way we're a if you're a professional opinion Giver then it probably is quite important that people you want people to understand you right I think it's important that people understand me um sure all I will say that is that there there is a balance in one's head though of um sometimes you want to engage in the aggression and Curt and uh like almost blunt deliveries to actually make people sort of snap into listening to you uh he was mentioning that earlier but at the same time yeah communication you know it's like it's a bit of a tight RPP sometimes sometimes you want to be like you know what I'm just going to [ __ ] say it how it is and it actually like gets through to people better than what what someone might call overintellectualizing something in non-artistic communication you definitely want to be clearly understood I think all the time but like you know with art you want lead interpretation like it could be this thing it could be that thing what I'm saying is if for example a dinosaur is heading to to the house and we we're there John and I'm like all right you need to understand a dinosaur is heading here we we need to run now I could I could have see myself being like no that won't work cuz you're not even going to believe me you're going to be like what the [ __ ] you talking about a dinosaur so instead if I just grab you instead of f [ __ ] dinosaur just like I I go aggressive and and quick and then I just start dragging you out it's like that's actually better communication even though conventionally speaking it would be worse right right like depending on the situation but I mean it's not like there's a dinosaur heading toward us right now we're fine we're okay bring Esa bring the truth is what's relevant and that's what I think people don't understand and what I like to do is I like to show examples of that truth other people like to talk about how the world should be and how they act and how their friends act well that's nice but nobody cares it doesn't really matter because again that's again self-referential how does he think that like a billion people have to care about something before it matters or like what this is I almost wish we could strike from his ability to use uh nobody cares or nobody matter like we have to throw them out and he has to say something else cuz I feel like it's only making him harder to understand mhm like I was saying earlier it seems to be like rather than a fix number of people if the people complaining exceeds the amount of sales then it's a problem whatever those numbers may be so it's like a rate I don't know like I I mean I'm just saying like that I assume that's where the line is drawn if he's not going to say exactly where the line is himself like that it would seem to be that would be the Assumption to make you know beyond that and to look at what are you doing what is the world doing not what are you doing and so we're talking about hypothetical I don't like talking about hypotheticals we do ithe Los I wouldn't say nobody though there's never a nobody there's never in everybody so then stop using those [ __ ] words stop saying those things also there are instances where you'd use those words they're definitely are they're useful but I think that it is a vast minority of people that nobody can eat their own head as was pointing out in Team America so there you go I'm going to be proven Wrong by that when someone [ __ ] clones themselves and eats their own God damn it really care about these things and I don't think that it is in any way shape or form a majority and I don't even think that it's remotely close I think that less than 5% of people care about it do you believe in trying to a [ __ ] ton of [ __ ] people canc do matter if but that don't you see already though you like 5% of people care you're like that could easily become 10% and then 20% 5% is 5% is one in 20 four because that could be explained by the fact that the other 95 don't care after discovering it or they haven't heard about it yet mhm we don't know because the stats don't tell us that part only if I think I can which you can't but more and more people are concerned with how the products they buy are consumed or made why because the reason why people want organic food it's because it's organic it's because it's it's created in a way that they feel is more healthy that's it's a higher quality product they're not buying organic food because they like they have some like moral feeling about it some people some people do he's even about to say it even about to say some people do yeah he's about to say it it's literally a whole but the majority of people do it because they believe it's healthy and not le% do it okay you but it the thing is this is what's making this so difficult he's like let's begin with no one cares about the process and then someone says like well this is proof that they do and then he's like no it's only proof that some people do it's like you said nobody now I said some people now you're saying that you've said some people the whole time it's like well then what because it gets really very good communicator when you're in the realm of some it's just it almost feels like a matter if you can't even disagree because if you said five and the next guy says 10 next guy says 15 I guess all of you are saying some mhm people are buying it because it's a better and higher quality product so I I I don't think you can use that it's more healthy it has less preservatives it has these different reasons it tastes better yes so I I I don't think the uh I don't think that's an example I'll read the rest of it oh go actually being beneficial to the End customer yes I believe that the End customer believes that it's beneficial the End customer if you were going to ask a hundred people of why they buy organic food and you ask them the question do you think that the food that you buy that is organic is either healthier and or taste better than the food that is non-organic I bet you would get a hundred people saying that they think it is because they think how many how many have you asked you're not gonna get a 100 people if you don't ask that many yeah what's the size 100 people say yes yeah to probably every prop proposition I've got a bit of a Brain Blast on this whole um they believe it's better for them it's like so that's a thought if we can convince people that they so let's take the Dark Souls clone that's like worse but has most of the components and he's like most people happy so they just don't care even if it's stolen everything it's like so all we need to do then is change the retoric from this is stolen and thus unethical to you'll have a better experience if you play dog Souls instead of the Clone and if we convince everyone of that we can achieve the goal it's like is that what you you would suggest that we do in order to make ethical concerns I guess realized is is focus on telling people that there's a better product even if it's not true even it's a [ __ ] lie would that be worth it because of the ethical goal underlying it if so I mean hey you know that could be a solution not one that I'd be particularly fond of that we have to lie to everybody to get people doing ethical consumption but uh healthier or and doesn't you know I'm not sure they they could also think that it uh it tastes better that's the reason why they buy organic food many organic because it makes yes all those many different reasons yes could be among them or com feels like it's accounted to his General point but I guess it isn't and feel like they're doing a good thing I'm sure those people exist but I don't think that they are the majority I think that they are a I think it's again a 5% because you're right but I don't think that's the majority the perception is what matters the perception is what creates value not the actual product no it's the no it isn't you can't say that after you spend all this time saying the only thing that matters is what people will pay for it yeah um and them actually going and doing that now it's perception yeah like like well you know like me if I play a game a million times over and then I declare what its quality is it's like yeah but that's your perception I'd be like my P well like yes but like it's informed by and it's like yeah but it's still your perception I'm not doing it because it's my like just because it's my perception it's also because I can verify it through all these other means I feel like perception should be saved more so for when I say what the game is and then Rags maybe repeats that later and it's like that's just rag perception because he hasn't played it that could be a a stronger way to use that word it feels weird to say you know someone like analyzes everything down to the individual [ __ ] molecules of a thing and then says well it's your perception that it's those things it's like yeah well it's all yeah it's your perception that oxygen is hydrogen and you know whatever but so right water is hydrogen and oxygen is like it is my perception but it is also reality yeah I was about to say that kind of [ __ ] that quote up doesn't it that's why people buy Supreme more people now care about products made locally reality is perception is reality or within their country I feel generally I feel like people generally buy Feelgood labeled things organic made locally ethically sourced fair trade Etc because they think they're making a difference my entire point is that I think in recent years more people don't seem to care or sorry more people seem to care about how things are made or where they're from I think that you're right in the context that the alternative is the same so like Al you're buying the same product but this one is more ethically made why would you want to buy an unethical product if you could just simply buy an ethical product instead so well some people choose not to buy it at all even if there is no alternative some people just say I'll go without MH happens all the time I mean there's plenty of like a video game might come out and then I hear that you know some bad thing about it or it's from a particular company and I don't want to support it or whatever and so I'm like well I that I I'm choosing to forgo having the experience of this game that is not going to be replicated by any other game and that's just fine so be it and people that is a choice that I'm making boycotts have been mentioned as well just about uh I was thinking about like the Epic store so whenever a game gets snatched up by them it's like well that's off the list of playing then at least from the pretty much yeah really the difference is that people are not willing to spend money or they are not willing to consume an inferior product in the pursuit of this because product if it's more ethical yeah cuz he's saying now that yes the organic thing happens but only when you're moving from something he's basically saying your two choices are the same experience of consumption but that one is unethical so of course you go for the ethical one and it's like well a lot of people will do it whether or not that's the case this is what I mean we've already been over this and he seemed to agree with it earlier that's not the only um playable Factor this is true people would prefer to do something eal but most people don't actually want to have that cost them anything the moment that it costs them anything to do something ethical then it stops happening that's just not true charity kills that whole concept yes you're biased in this discussion cuz you're slipping on bazooka size Coca-Cola instead of Real Food um wow that really annoyed him I think like I I don't even think there's any value to that argument that like he can't speak on this cuz he's biased cuz he drinks Coca-Cola it's like that has nothing to do with anything but I just I guess I'm amused by how much he's just like what he's very annoyed by that what I didn't know Coca-Cola was like I don't understand I don't understand that I thought that was Fanta right H I thought that was Fanta right I have no idea I didn't make a note of which one he was drinking man yeah okay organic isn't healthier though I can't H I enjoyed that reaction often times it is yeah often times it's healthier well I guess well they whole reaction he's already addressed that the whole um as long as they believe it that's his that's his point of view is like as long as they would believe that then they would be good enough whether you think that it's healthier or not I just asked chat and most people think that it is perception becomes reality in the eyes of a consumer that's my point I think I think this guy perception becomes reality then you shouldn't discount you know things that change people's minds or there yeah I don't know how you can say this after all that you've said you there's just too many instances is of a small voice changing everything for an item on the market uh you know Snowball Effect sort of stuff again I think that people will do something ethical if it if it's free they'll like a tweet I don't those people do things that are e that are not free at all yeah some people are not willing to really make big sacrif IES yes some people are not willing to do that some people are yeah they'll change their flag they'll change their profile Pi like yeah someone said A Small Voice doesn't change [ __ ] on the market mostly like yeah there you go as long as we suck getting them Cavit in everyone could agree sometimes they do to a flag and that I would never want to discourage anyone from uh pointing out unethical practices you go right ahead and hopefully it'll make a difference but but that's about it uh I get what he's trying to say but it just illustrates that some people prioritize video games as a product and not human expression I know he doesn't think that they're artistic or meaningful but it's clear at least in this context all that matters is product and its function well it depends on the person because for some people they might view AI art and something that was created through AI as a form of human expression in the same way that photography is a form of human expression even though you're using a camera to create the image so I don't necessarily think that you can just you I don't think you can Define this and just say like nobody else can see it this way because I think again anybody can see it however way they choose to I don't play games to see art I do it to have fun well it depends on what people want to do uh some people see them as art some people don't but at the end they are games are art well wait it's not just that the the the poster I imagine is saying that we should probably encourage people to see them more as art than product yeah which generally agree generally speaking as long as it's not bear in mind well it's you got to bear in mind the Dynamics that are a play there there is a company that's trying to make money and then there's you with your own interests and that there should be a there should be an amount of push and pull there right like it shouldn't you shouldn't just roll over and allow any publisher to get away with any business practice that they want to employ to get more money out of you it is something that you're buying if you have you know your friend who works all day every day and comes home plays games doesn't really consider the Artistry involved in it but doesn't like you know disparage any of it they just want to play and you like yeah that's totally chill that's fine but if you have someone who's like oh you play your little video game oh pew pew C just like this is like a told me it's not art you just said they're like do you even know what the industry behind this is worth they're just like oh look at you [Music] go the day um I I know he doesn't think they are artistic or meaningful well I think that there are some games that are and I appreciate those games but if I found out that like a game that I thought was very artistic or meaningful was created with AI that would not have like if I find out like some robot made this I would not immediately dislike that game I still would have gotten the same thing out of the game that it might even make me find more pieces of meaning to think a robot constructed the thing I found meaning in but like I said and I think most people agree it changes your perception of the Creator behind it if they were like if they were a game director you're like oh you did it with AI okay yeah yeah yeah I did before I knew that so uh this is also a post I I I watched or some some of the people have highlighted the difference between appreciating skill and appreciate the meaning you get from a piece of art it's like two different fields that are happening at once and can be crossed over a little bit maybe in these conversations I read a little bit I want I want to go over like I'm almost about halfway done with these um I encountered this issue this is a response from a person who was uh I guess like a guy with Opera uh I encountered this issue a lot whenever it came to outreach of Opera and getting a wider audiences to be curious about Opera most don't care it's true what he says is right most consumers do not care about Artistry they don't care about the deeper meaning for why something is made does it run does it play well is it fun that's what matters the most what if they classified that as Artistry in a way play well is obviously Artistry game design is artistry it's funny you say that because I think a lot of people would be like no I'm not talking about Artistry I just mean does it work yeah like as in is the programming good the Artistry the coding of the theact is it functional people need to stop thinking about OS like oh well art is like when I see it the art is also the game design and the programming well you can tell in the way that this guy is making this point um that we've created a dichotomy here that I don't think I think this is actually damaging he's like you know a lot of people aren't looking for some deep meaning and it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa it's not it's not like you have to when you play a game and appreciate its artwork you don't have to go as far as saying like what does it say about life like no you can just be like wow look at the way they made that that looks like neat I like this I like how these things kind of look like they were you know that's cool I like the way that looks I like this you know that looks I like the sound you know I like the soundtrack of this game or something like that not you know yeah exactly you don't have to you don't have to go too deep like chill you know you could appreciate things on you know it's it's a spectrum like a lot of stuff you can engage with stuff on many levels so is that it's almost impossible not to be an artist by this metric you mean when designing a video game game design is odd I don't know what to say game design is creative it's full of expression and it's full of like literal the construction of objects digitally and voice art assets video game not the stle pieces of Art in art like in a video game or or just the music like people wanting to create a meaningful competitive experience when I designed my bread ree as that art Gordon Ramsey is an artist when you're when you're making this this this like excellent best of the best food that's odd absolutely sure I mean and and with a film Nobody argues that film isn't art you hav I was about to say look through look through history and what you see is the gradual acceptance of different art forms like there was a time where film was seen as like gross yeah it's not okay sure but like I I agree with you guys like but but with the art example it's like you have a main character who's put through a situation they're doing this thing they're doing that thing the only difference with a game is that you I mean you're still operating within a basic framework of like go here and you s you pass the level and you go to the next level right but like it's you're still being put through a scenario and making choices and there's an artistic sort of end goal right absolutely yeah no I wasn't we weren't saying it to disagree with you saying to essentially support the point in a more interesting way that even Once Upon a Time yeah we more interesting than you that was a conclusion I took yeah so the discussion between Ai and artists frankly isn't something that most people care about uh not only because it doesn't affect them but because they simply aren't aware he keeps returning to this over and over like it it it's it's the his back door he'd always Retreat into this well most people don't care about this thing I'm like okay we heard you the first 17 times I promise you we heard that he's probably even right with with with the concept that generally in in a very general sense most people don't think about these things right like if we're just saying that um most people who buy cell phones are not thinking about the child labor when they're buying cell I um well I mean keep them off the streets which makes sense yeah I think it's a a bit of a bobbing between positions because of the words being used like remember what he went viral for was saying artists don't matter or artists opinions don't matter which there's so many to interpret more so of what the [ __ ] has being said there compared to what he could have said apparently which was just that the um the minority opinion doesn't typically affect the consumption of a product which nobody's going to disagree with that if you were to press him on that I yeah like I think you were saying earlier M like I don't think he actually thinks that but like he needs to be more clear with what exactly that he's saying like these clips that are going around where like he cuz these clips of him went viral and then he did this response video and you can sort of sum it up as him basically doubling down on his position saying like I am right you guys are wrong and the truth will always Prevail it's just like okay so you do think that artists opinions don't matter but like he he needs to narrow his focus and specify exactly what it is he but he would argue to you that he was clipped out of context but the uh I just don't know that it was ever a good quote even with context you know it's it's a quote that communicates his ideas very well yeah I I don't think it was ever a good quote even in context there is an element of you obviously the opinion of the artist determines what it is that people will be buying so say that it doesn't matter is like it's [ __ ] you know he needs to rephrases ideas for sure I think yeah know why a painting takes weeks they do see an individual brush Dres of the Monae or the way the PTO was carved what they care about is the result uh is this bad does this matter maybe maybe not uh but artists in a different category uh artist but artists are in a different category artists are in the work of expressions and I also think that Monae was in Monae was an impressionist right like he's the one that did the water lies after I think World War I or two and uh a lot of people he was like one of the big guys right for that well people criticized him too people are [ __ ] on him as well he's a big guy yeah he like you you recognize a lot of his paintings yeah that's yeah watch's this in service of pointing out that he would have been criticized well I I was about to suggest him and I was like wait I'll let him continue my mom was very into art she educated me in a lot of the things myself they copied them yes yes they did towards the end of his life he was actually blind almost blind that's why it's wear special glasses you know he's still able to make a lot of the art that at least people see now and so yeah there it is legendary artist from France yeah yeah he had like a uh I think he had like a personal relationship with the prime minister at the time and he offered to paint the lies as a commemoration of uh the end of the world war and so yeah no I I I know what he's talking about and you know even in in his time he had the same criticism on him same same thing what same thing not sure what he means exactly um yeah I'm not sure what the criticism is that he's saying is the same here and so uh uh this inherently stems from lack of Education or limit education in any sense I actually don't think that's the case I think that everybody knows that clothes are made from like a lot of the a lot of the produce that we cons asmin is talking about something different than the person that's talking about I think that there's um I think that classes that are like music and art appreciation can open people up to things they wouldn't have otherwise explored um and I think that kind of stuff is important you do want to kind of broaden people's Horizons and not just let them um just just stick with the same thing over and over especially in more formative years telling them about all the different styles there are to music about all the different you know in history we all these different kinds of you know art you know you have Monee and uh gosh what's another artist there's so many I can't even think of any he's probably the only one but you all the different styles The Cho and things like that it's it's important it really is um I remember my art and music classes from grade school learning about people that's where I learned about Claude Monae um and Freda Koo and you know all sorts of stuff I wouldn't I might not have learned about that stuff if it wasn't for classes and I and I do sympathize with the idea that yeah like people I wonder how much people discover something like Opera in a quote unquote natural way and actually like get engaged with it it um I think Symphonies are also a thing where how many PE people it's it's almost um incidentally compartmentalized maybe that's a way to describe it where if you don't like you don't it's not something you brush up against it's not you have to kind of go out of your way to experience a symphony in person well you do have to go out of your way to experience a symphony in person you have to buy tickets and you have to go there and you have to you know listen to it and stick around and that's just not going to be an experience that a lot of people even maybe think about doing which is you know a shame because it's not like any other musical experience really so it's it waste of time kids can barely do math to begin with it's like well that that's just quality of Education rather than they're in school for eight hours a day they better they better learn more than one [ __ ] thing I was just going to say like make math fun then like that's a big problem educations have is the they make everything [ __ ] boring it's funny because I liked math when I was in school especially when you can see yourself getting better at it it's when they introduced trigonometry that I was like oh you've ruined it oh yeah I had I had problems with that too that was tough yeah there was like there was there was that point where math stopped being fun and interesting and I'm like this is work yeah it was like yeah like when Disney B toall was you know it's like oh what the [ __ ] going on what have you done yeah I was good at algebra and then I had to do like proofs and [ __ ] I'm like oh my God like I had such a hard time with that um but like what what Rags was saying about broadening your horizons absolutely I mean to to for a personal example uh specifically within film like when I was a kid I had I watched a lot of like cartoons and cartoon movies and then all of a sudden I had watched train spotting perhaps at a younger age than I should have watched it and I was just like holy [ __ ] [ __ ] dude like that blew my mind and it got me thinking of the medium and an entirely different way I'm just like oh Cinema can't doesn't have to be just this one thing it could be any anything right and then it just got me like thinking about it way more it's probably one of the reasons why I decided to go into it like the you know as like an art form yeah because it just magnified my interest all of a sudden well so if we have uh the original thing of you know the the the thing on pal wield right doesn't doesn't matter what people's opinions are then this guy responds with I think it's a matter of education and then as mol is talking about actually I think people mostly know about and then he uses the example of sweat shops and stuff the reason why I think rxs is right for the initial commentary is that um there maybe maybe everyone does know about the sweat shops thing as a factoid I don't know how many people know about like the [ __ ] ethics of AI generated material in video games I don't I don't know I feel like that's it's like children working long hours for virtually no pay and terrible condition yeah it's pretty easy to understand why that is very it doesn't take much to convince most people that that's yeah that's probably something that we shouldn't encourage it's a very relatable experience is produced by workers that are working in conditions that if this was American workers that were American citizens this would not be acceptable how many of you acceptable because they're non American I think it's in a way yes and in a way no and know in a way yes in that if they are American they're probably going to be a lot more closer to you and a lot more involved in your life if you are from America America right but that's almost be just the natural byproduct of yeah if they're in the same country as you then they're probably much more relatable and closer to you and their existence in your country can impact your life in a more meaningful way right and also there's like the kinship of you know countrymen and things of that nature but if someone is you know in India in some sweat shop in some Village that you never think about or know about anyway then then it's like it's not about them not being American it's that they're on the other side of the planet and they don't impact me in any way whatsoever someone said they dislike the idea of broadening Horizons related to going to the oper and it's like what if people just didn't like it it's like that's fine if you went if you gave it a shot and didn't like it Horizon broaded like it's it's more so just uh encouraging people to experience more sure even if I didn't like something it would get me thinking about it you know like what what what could it have done better like what like under what conditions would I have liked this thing that I didn't like you know sure know that everybody knows that I don't I I mean are people not buying produce because of that no I don't think so I I don't think so at all let's talk about mining or here let's let's put it it a lot of this it's about the it's the apathy test um so it's the apathy test is like um if you did go to the grocery store and in the with all of the produce there were two heads of lettuce there all wrapped up for you and one of them was just a normal head of lettuce and the other one said this head of lettuce and let's say it was 10 cents uh cheaper but it said yeah this this was made using you know child slave labor in Alabama because no one [ __ ] cares about Alabama and it's yeah and it was full of suffering and misery and the children were not paid and they're going to be enslaved for the rest of their life right I think few people would choose that one over the other one even though it's you know 10 cents more but also it's because they're both right there in front of you you just pick up one instead of picking up the other the cost distinction is virtually non-existent so that even if it's sort of a distant thing it it sort of hits that you know that level of of I do care yeah we summarize it as proximity right yeah yeah it's that and if you just if you give people two virtually identical options for something and it's an equal amount of effort for both of them then they will probably side with the one that's more ethical if that's the only difference well that's something as said earlier but uh he believes that explains the times that people actually do it um meanwhile I think we would be in the position that people go way further than that yeah a lot of the times they do yeah yeah but mining ore is like it's it's a newer one I think that the produce is better unless you're extremely poor in my case and you don't have right to certain funny of money you don't have anyone to represent you yeah sure most of that they just want to pretend yeah exactly Nike terrible for child labor still going to buy those kicks exactly cuz money's everything dude that's all that matters uh to the piggy banks well it's also not just money if for example the the produce that was made by Americans was worse and it tasted worse people wouldn't buy it they'd buy the ones that was made by third or second world slaves or workers that are getting paid $2 an hour so yeah no it's not just money it's money and quality uh let's keep going here um the thing about I feel like is being entertained though is the thing we mentioned earlier about how a lack of uh funds would change your ethical system slightly as in like I can't try to be more caring of people who are being forced to make it in some other place when I can't even survive myself if you know what I mean MH but that hasn't been entertained much at all but no I don't think that it's education because I think that people know these things and they choose to ignore them how do they know things how do you think they how do you think they know them they like more um some people see a flower and they say oh a flower somebody else se's a flower and says oh wow look a bee is floating around it it's giving light to the flower and a flower in it yeah and other people say wow that K the bee it's near the flower and It Might Sting me yeah of course uh I don't know if it stems from nature or nurture people born more Sensi people know most people have never been stung by a bee but everyone knows that a bee will sting you you have to teach people things you do have to educate people yeah there almost like um you don't just teach people things so that they can draw a deep meaning out of something you almost have to teach them how to draw deep meaning out of things or just how to know the thing period how to recognize that thing even exists it's like the sweat shop stuff and and all sorts of things about art and how you engage with art and even knowing that there are different forms of art than what you're used to yeah like you have to education is how people know these things you can't say well you don't have to educate them about that they know about it it's like well that's how they know about it I mean I I I think it you know that it's both uh in the studio gilby movie Spirited Away no face represents many things uh but to me he's always represented consumption more and more and more feed me and that's the danger of being purely a consumer uh one becomes an empty shell one with purpose um I disagree with this the danger of being purely a consumer I think I think this guy brings up a great point but I don't think that a person who lives a very stressful and difficult life is at danger of being a consumer this is a person whose life has multiple Min facets to it and ethically consuming bananas is not one of them that's just simply all there is to it yeah I feel like this is a bit of a remix on some they're concerned heavily and in a depth meaningful way with a lot of things in their life but they're just not with with you know the way they eat their fruit they're just not yeah if you have yeah if you have a really tough life then you think less about the little things no matter what debates like this can go on forever and ever neither side is right or wrong well one side certainly does have the argument of this is what it sure seems like people are doing though don't they that's not an argument that's that's all I'm trying to say this sure seems like people sure seem to be doing this one thing a whole lot guy just is actually making a suitable intellectual condescending argument out people that don't agree with the skewed view on consumerism and why people don't G agree with them um one becomes an empty showell one with purpose uh I don't think that people's purpose is or is not about consumerism people can have a purpose that is completely devoid of how they process or produce or consume any product um that would be the world we live in what we head to but it's always I will say as much as I agree with that that you you couldn't it could just be like they don't have to but it's like but if you know you're going to want them to every time if they if they just yeah that influences how they behave and what they do yeah they could be like you know that that analogy I had of the the friend that just plays games indefinitely but if if he came home and played rage Shadow Legends for example we'd be like Whoa man like I know you don't care but don't play that play play play like a [ __ ] real game like you be like dude I don't care you like no no no no I get it I I get what you're saying but like just just go like M out on a game that's way better than that I'm just saying the artist and I I think like really this guy's point is is really the the first paragraph right is he's saying that like you know as much as we want people to care about Opera people don't care about Opera and that's all there is to it all the games you all and play like Warcraft or handcrafted by like so why do people why do some people care about it and some people don't well if you're if you're wanting to expand Opera like I I don't think that you would just be like yeah well some people care about some people don't and that's just how it is it's like well [ __ ] don't try to change anything ever yeah as with every sector and everything related to everything there's a a way you try to understand what gets people interested and then you try to uh you know get weird out essentially yeah I don't get this attitude it's it's like bizarre to me like well it's just the way it is moving on but the wider world you spat on your talent hard work and assumed their irrelevance uh even though it's these artists who craft the world that you and your viewers get lost in Worlds that AI could could not conjure up by itself true um the thing is what you said is somewhat ironic the people buying the product often judge it based on how it looks opinions aren't irrelevant our opinion experiences and lives and influence uh and lives often influence the worlds you enjoy that's right uh that's very true and so and I responded back to this and I said this right I said you're absolutely right uh but the value of those things exists because people like me say it does the reason why World of Warcraft is massively successful is not because artist made it it's because people bought it they would have never made the bur almost get into like a Chicken and the Egg so that's what's getting evoked by the exact same thing it's like well which one comes first you know you're not successful because you made a thing good you're successful because people liked it because people bought the thing that you made it's almost like we're splitting it up well imagine I said it's not because people liked it it's because people paid for it and then someone said no it's not because people paid for it it's because you received the money for it You' be like what are you doing it's like why you splitting it up like this it's like well what is the root cause burning Crusade if people didn't buy the game that's the truth is that the customer drives the production and the customer creates the value customer drives production and creates value sort of the thing about it is we've talked about a million times over there there are things that didn't even get released for x amount of time and it's like it doesn't have value until it's released it's like no but if you're talking strictly about market value then I guess you have to be right because yeah this is this is his problem he needs to be more specific because that's why everyone keeps assuming the worst of what he's saying yeah he's a he's a very bad Communicator for a streamer on this topic sure is there to put something out there but it's up to the customer to decide whether it's worth buying or worth looking at or not it's a buyer's market what you just said is dumb as [ __ ] what about it is dumb I think a lot of the artists on Twitter get mad because they don't like the idea that their hard work isn't important to the people playing does it work is it fun yes then they'll care if not before it does matter but it matters because people like it if people didn't like it then it wouldn't matter I just can't wait make people AI to take jobs away from content creators will never hear about how bad AI is for everyone I'm just going to preface by saying that I understand that AI is a tool is useful be can utilized and can be utilized by artists to create better art but to equate art as value for just being a product is like the argument that people made a while ago about games as a product versus a service I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that uh but I'll go ahead and I'll talk about this so art fundamentally is subjectively valued why is it that the Mona Lisa is worth so much money there's there's not really a way that you can discern how much money this painting is is worth without looking at its subjective value and that's the same with any painting or any type of art that's the beauty of art is that it serves no intrinsic purpose but the subjective value that it has in the hearts and minds of people inin is substantial if it's good right if people like it but what I'm saying is that just because you perceive a value in something doesn't mean that it has intrinsic value in a market like for example inic value in a market you can't have in value market wa wait well I mean but I'm not even I'm if you perceive something as having value that can influence the market if you like well and then I'll pay that much for it right yeah that's kind of interesting right because you could be like a billion billion people like the thing that's what gave it value not your individual interest in it's like but what if that individual paid the rights owner more than that billion people paid in terms of well yeah in in the sense that you could look at any of the most expensive paintings of all time it's like well that value was defined by one person who was willing to pay that much money for it like me me personally I have no impact on how much um Theona lease is worth because I'm not even in any way shape or form in the realm with people who would be in a position to buy it but you could be maybe if one day you make enough money and you go out there and you buy it not could even do that I don't think is even like available for purchase is it like that's where Thea kept is it at the uh oh you making me think a Glass Onion don't y no I know when you think of the monaa right a little bit well like the idea of is it for sale can you just like borrow it and put it in your house it's like no the Lou isn't going to let you [ __ ] do that you can't just have the the is the isn't it yes it is yeah I just would never be sold which is kind of an interesting one cuz at that point it's it's it's effectively Priceless um in that I imagine never ever ever ever ever be sold it's now found like it's you know un like yeah basically that there's not really it would I would be I would wonder how much money you would have to offer to be able to buy it and just keep it for yourself yeah I feel like it it it might actually be that there's no price yeah probably I don't know how many of you guys have things that have sentimental value but nobody would buy them you have pictures that you made whenever you were a kid or something like that he's almost there now he's starting to recognize the whole personal Val but like sentimental would obviously be different than appreciating a thing for the skill and an Artistry that went into it which is also different than what everyone wants and feels would be worth paying for it on the market these are all different values and when you summarize your position as you opinion doesn't matter and the thing that you think has value doesn't unless everyone says it does they they have distinctive Impressions on people as statements that aren't as you know fair or interesting as the ones he's making you uh and you know like some [ __ ] thing that you had whenever you were growing up and like this to you is worth a lot but to anybody else it's not worth anything so I think that we all have like it's it's such a personal example that this is the case we all know that this is true that's the point I'm making that it's Priceless it's about taking jobs away from people in the industry though if what you said about robots taking over the future is true should artists just pack it in no more jobs do people still get portraits done even though we have cameras do people still buy only fans I was going to say that I wouldn't apply those two different mediums know you can Google big I would value a portrait of me far more than I would value a photograph of me Al what was the second one about boobs why do people do uh only fans if you you can just get big boobs well I do actually as much as I think it's silly there are there are answers to that question yes there are people still get portraits done even though we have cameras do people still buy only fans even though you can Google big boob yeah I mean there's a lot of answers to that question in fact oh yeah a lot just one boob boob what singular only one boob please no one large none of this par boob [ __ ] two mediumsized boobs or one large boob one big Bo please it's tidier I would like big boob people still like handmade clothes even though you can get it printed from a [ __ ] third world sweat shop yes so basically uh neuros that's so interesting because it sounds like he's saying that the uh at least in that comparison the um the AI work is like the unethical one you know is a completely AI erated a vtuber that was created by a guy named vetle and neuros Sama has actually become so popular that it was the top female streamer which is actually a guy which is you know like you know guys you know me we just can't we just can't stop winning and feminism dead destroyed once again that is kind of funny that men are better at being women it's like it was like when uh who's the Jenner who what's her name nowait Jenner Caitlyn Jenner when she won like woman of the year and we had all those jokes about a man becomes a woman about oh was it men are even better than than being women than women are yeah dang it was actually the most popular streamer for like a week or a month uh recently beating out all of the other real girls or real fake girls that been real women all of them were beat out wait so oh it beat out not only women but also the fake women that women were pretending to be other women as in V tuba women behind women he basically what he's saying is there's a guy who created a woman that was so good it beat out all women even the women who made women damn by neuros Sama and by someone said beating out it's like he means like highest viewership I think is what that means beating out so I think that you have an example of that being being the case so like what you're talking about is like if AI takes away a job from a content creator what do you think that my position is on that come on dude let's be real I'm just saying like it's pretty [ __ ] defeating actually don't know as a guy about yeah well I what he just said gives you his answer either no I I disagree I think he's made clear what his answer is he's saying that that's natural in the industry that's what happens and that you need to you know evolve basically adapt or die uh what I guess I mean in the subject of automation right that was what happened in manufacturing automation meant that uh manufacturing especially in like Western countries got pretty uh decimated and it's like okay well now what are they supposed to do you know what's what's uh what's next well so and what I I found that argument compelling the whole like uh you know why the resistance of the Next Generation shouldn't be met with like fear of losing jobs and it's like okay but this is the balance I suppose is that you shouldn't rush it we need to soften the blow of the industry's destruction on jobs right we need to transition this stuff slowly yeah exactly yeah we need to make opportunity for people to to move into different sectors as well well I guess you're [ __ ] like good luck yeah that's the thing I would rather we have that perspective than the you you [ __ ] get used to it buddy it's like well we could try and help out you know they supposed to do well especially when especially when you know if you work in a field for a long time and then you become very specialized and skilled in that field and then you're done it's like well I mean you're hardly going to be able to build up the skills to be competitive in the next field that you need to move into with like no assistance or any good you know any help whatso like the it was like the learn to code thing right oh yeah cool bro but like that that takes time to develop those skills you can't just like that's very that's just not very helpful agree in art that AI art is coming out and potentially taking away job offers that could be offered to me like should I just switch careers no you should embrace it completely and you should look at how to use it to augment your skills you have the perfect opportunity to use and leverage these skills with this new technology to get a better job than probably you could have gotten 10 years ago I suppose the problem there is that what if you're dealing with someone who fundamentally considers it unethical what are they supposed to do then it's like well change your ethical system I guess or of course what if you don't want to make it that way what if you want to uh do it the the the way the normal way of just not using those tools at all I guess it's just like oh well too bad but I mean that doesn't seem like a great it's an answer it's just yeah it doesn't really uh solve many problems it only just answers the question well it especially doesn't solve the problem of what if somebody places an immense amount of value in the process of doing it themselves of going from you know uh like pencil and paper all the way to creating something without doing any like without any use of AI Tools in that process at all and it's just like oh too bad like sucks for you then I guess can't be making art like or or the very least you can't expect to do it professionally that doesn't seem like a great solution I don't think that you should view it that way I don't I think that that's the defe mindset like I I AI art is a tool figure out is also pretty defe yeah depending on who you're talking to well it also depends on how you view it all if if you if you think this is encroaching upon creativity and destroying Industries and then someone tells you yeah get used to it how [ __ ] sad is that Jesus I guess it would be like why would you expect someone to accept that answer of just like yeah well that thing you want ain't going to happen so like tough [ __ ] like do you think that they'll go like oh well [ __ ] you've convinced me I give up I give up on on the position that I hold doesn't work like that well yeah you're only going to be like completely in line with this if you already agree with him which fun enough I'm I'm aligned in certain ways I just feel like it lacks there's so many holes in this in terms of like appeal trying to soften what the effects of this will be on a actively highly developed civilization because that's what that's what AI is going to do it's going to it's it's already swamping loads of different Industries it's going to take over loads of different scarier ways that we won't be able to even figure out like it'll be done well before we even know about it something different I say that as if it isn't happening literally right now just like it hasn't happened yet I'm sure self checkouts are huge like most places have like 30 [ __ ] checkout lines and three of them are open everywhere and whenever I was a kid 15 of them were open well what happened to those 12 people well one of them is working at the self checkout area and the other 11 aren't working at the store anymore so there's definitely that um candle makers yeah candle makers and one thing that I've noticed people doing at the grocery stores are the people who go around and fill up the tubs full of like the people put in their orders for like groceries online and then people at the store put it all into like boxes and stuff and then you come and pick it up or sometimes it's even delivered so I guess that's a thing that's happen I guess the thing is like all of this cuz of course if you point to like self-service which yeah I mean basically like any grocer store or retail place has got self- sered checkouts at this point when it used to be that you had to have people operating into the checkouts and that potentially means lost jobs um I mean the solution has to be well you got to you got to find jobs to replace those jobs right you can't how how is it going to be sustainable if you've just got oh yeah 10 go 10 gobs 10 jobs get lost uh and then one job gets created like are you going to end up in a place where there are people who are just permanently unemployable cuz that's hm maybe though yeah I don't know like but at that point it feels like you again it's already moving out of the like the subject of AI into a much uh broader sort of subject light bulbs well I'm trying to think about examples that are contemporary that we all understand travel agents that's a really great example the taxi industry has totally changed with Uber totally [ __ ] died taxi is not a great example no it is it goes about dying because if if it was gradually transferred over and taxi drivers can become Uber drivers obviously there's going to be damage done but I actually think that's a good example of an industry that started with a gap in the market oh that's what he's saying then yes I thought he was saying something different I I don't I I can't say I know exactly what he's saying here but I assumed what I would want to advocate for is that we do it gradually I wouldn't want to say the Ubers have to stop and not exist because it'll kill taxis I would rather we incorporate and smoothly transition over to that being the dominant cuz it just seems to a more effective service get the taxi drivers into being Uber drivers that sort of thing um I just you know I I wouldn't instead I wouldn't want to say it as simply as you know how we used to have taxis now we have Ubers there we go like it would be like that that's not I don't know if that's an interesting analysis compared to what you could say telephone I'm sure there's a lot of taxi drivers who [ __ ] hate Uber operators yeah thing where like in New York they fought to keep Uber out of like New York I think so I seem to remember that yeah that rings a bell well it where I am in Vancouver was the same thing I remember taxi drivers were [ __ ] pissed yeah it makes sense you need it to be transitioned slowly so that people can adapt in time because if you if it happens all at once it can do serious damage of these Maps yeah the people that make maps that's a great [ __ ] example yes exactly if AI art can replace uh Boris vgo's or uh Chris foss's art style what the [ __ ] design elements of art like I don't know man uh it depends on how you use it like I I think that if you if you understand things like that you can perfect tools to make those tools more precise and more appealing uh this doesn't negate the opinions of those who made it this is like saying that otk Network or your stream only has value because we not you enjoy it you own otk forget you dude who cares what you think people are are just totally watching your streams for your gaming only and not your opinion and viewpoint on certain matters you and I both know that's nonsense it may be a good game but it's not impressive he's talking about power world I said you're right again if no one watched my stream it would have no value who would sponsor a streamer who has no views how much would ads make again it's still yeah it's just it's that's economic value which I still feel like isn't captured fully by this but um I get what he's saying compared to personal value or artistic value but again artistic value from of view of many people or from from yourself you know there's many values but what is like it's I guess because it's funny it's like I mean what does it mean when for instance a company is said to be overvalued like what does that mean when whatever their valuation is according to the market doesn't seem to correlate with what would be seen as like traditional markers of value um like what does it and you know what what happens if like let you know I guess the Vincent Van go was the easy example right he painted he didn't really get much attention and then people found out about it and then his paintings became you know much more expensive cuz everybody started to know who he was it's like so it would be that the painting had no value until like somebody noticed it and then all of a sudden it's like it's got dramatic value that that would be the way that it would be categorized in his world well right you might even make it simpler as it didn't have value until it had value and then you be like can you be more specific it's like it didn't have someone valuing it until it had someone valuing it and you're like oh that's awfully restrictive and it's like yep that's all I meant you're like oh okay that does seem to be it too well and it's not what everyone's mad about the yeah they matter about the implications and the um almost the subtext gets gets to people as well because uh it's the word Valu the word matters these words um you know they do stuff and how could I get subscribers something's market value versus its personal value are two different things and so this is the last point that he makes in a DM yeah I'll probably have to respond to this DM and um uh perhaps it's difference in perspective here what we value more sounds like you're a slave to your viewers and sponsors uh than my dude not a slave but a servant and I don't think that's a bad thing but I know you stream because you love it and value it for yourself and you couldn't think of doing mean that you know you can hit pause twoo Rags if you just stop talking I can't hear you what you say I was saying I didn't quite I like I wonder if he like expan on that I didn't quite know what he means by like not a slave but a servant um I mean yeah he could have expanded on it but I assume it just means that I guess but again I'm not even sure if my guess would be close to what he means a servant willingly does services for a price right like they're compensated in meh slave is like they have no choice in anything like so slave in this sense would be like I don't want to stream but I have forcing you to yeah or that you can't express any opinions that any of your chat would not be happy with alth you can't play any games that aren't going to be very popular I think that would be closer to like slave level but that Asma gold I mean he gets himself in trouble so much you can't be considered someone who doesn't uh go against the grain here and there I I don't know I I it's a fair point you could have elaborated a little bit on that anything else uh so I think you're Miss my point I makeing share art because I value it I make tutorials on how to make 3D art because I genu enjoy doing it even if I get minimal views I don't care good then do it I I I develop rust because I genuinely enjoy the art I make for it and developers I have around me are I family the opinion on developing a game matters to me for me if no one watched your stream it doesn't mean that it has no intrinsic value I think that it does and I actually think that this stream never had any intrinsic value I think that the value for a stream was always subjective and something having subject you see the words they're all tangled up if you look at the last sentence they say unless you're framing it all through the lens of money then that's a shame and I think if asmin had read that already he would have been like no not a shame reality and then they'd be like yeah a sad reality be like no just reality because that's how value works in the about you know what I mean like it's like oh I feel like the two positions are not recognizing each other very well and that yet they use the same words to describe the same uh situation yeah like earlier he said if no one watched my stream it would have no value and then he said value is subjective it's like but if people are wa if the value of something is based off of the people who are watching it then that it's subjective he seemed to pretty clearly mean monetary value with regards to his own right because immediately after that well what who would sponsor a stream with zero viewers how many ads would people watch right so like he was clearly I think in that case talking pretty exclusively about the the literal monetary value of the that stream right and I think in that case if you're streaming to zero people what is the monetary value of that stream uh yeah it's gonna be zero because you get no subs you get no ads you get you knowes super chats as to what rag said in terms of that wouldn't be subjective at that point right like it wouldn't be subjective no like like there's so much I I don't know all these terms are being thrown around repeatedly and they seem to have different meanings every time he says them right and maybe it's because he reading them and and other people are saying oh but it has no value right and they're saying oh so you're saying that uh it has no personal value has no you know because on the well so why he this is why the words get entangled because uh take for example someone saying we're going to supply ads to a a YouTuber and uh this one has 10,000 average views this one has 20 this one has 30 it's like we're going with the 30 and it's like that value of their viewers has translated into little units so they gives them value on a screen to like someone deciding something like that and he would say yes that is objective but that the people watching it and liking it is the subjective part and so describing it ho as subjective value can get very confusing if we're talking about the money markets or the economic markets um but again it's just like that's that's that seems to be what we have learned overall is that this is entirely just miscommunication which does often end up being the cause of pretty much everything that goes wrong at the interet yeah well definitely a lot of it yeah objective value does make it inferior or worse but it does make it different and not the same as something that has intrinsic value unless you're fing it through all through the lens of money it does have intrinsic value I want sorry I I still don't know what he the way that he phrases that hello go on RS yeah it dropped but you're good now is he is is he oh maybe not I haven't heard a word from him I spoke too soon we hello Rags is Rags rip in peace rip in pepperoni I'm waiting for the go on give me the [Music] bom can we get an F in the chat for Rags or or X is if you doubt his death F so x x for f or X to death let's see well I see a couple X's but mostly FS I think we think this is legitimate death you got to give the X a little more time see they're coming in they didn't know X was an option no it's games more just typing X over and over again and every one of them counts I you know what we're just gonna carry on we refer back to this and talk about this again um the reason why why I said a lot of these things I was talking about this in the context of going to Market with a video game I wasn't talking about art as a whole I wasn't talking about how an individual perceives art how could I possibly tell somebody what has value to them that's insane I'm talking explicitly and you know you'd know this if you saw more than a minute and a half of the which we have woohoo clip that I'm talking about why people buy or don't buy a game I'm talking about how consumers value games how consumers consume content what vales those people have it doesn't really have a lot to do with I know that I'm right so much that it doesn't even bother me when it doesn't even bother me whenever people get mad I view them as just people that are unwilling or I would say even with all this clarification I mostly agree with them but I would still take issue with the idea of like a discouragement on people raising all of these issues in the hopes of doing something to the game ultimately and and and suggest in through stats like well you're not making any difference are you it's like well no they still can they still May and they have in the past lots of things can happen and it's crazy what happens when you appeal to uh like the creators behind the thing that can have some huge difference or unable to see the truth I'm not mad at any of these comments this like obviously I've talked about it for a long time I clearly care about them but this isn't something that's going to make me un unhappy or compromise me emotionally if that makes sense uh what you're wrong about is how you said the game made doesn't matter but it does it may not matter to you or a bunch of people but it sure does to a lot of other people who are different um it doesn't matter in a functional sense in terms that it will create an effect on the video game whenever I say it doesn't matter what I'm what only might but the judging from the stats will never know how much effect it actually has had on it that's thing you can never know on that thing because it's thinking about you know Futures that don't exist but yeah I mean you can never know for sure Rex hello I'm really saying is that it doesn't matter in the context of it's selling well or not selling well of course it matters to you but it doesn't matter in the sense of it's selling well in the market um a bunch of sales can be driven because of a notable artist that worked in a certain product I was definitely the case for me and a bunch of games that I said to buy and why is that artist notable and you will see that your reasoning will come back around to the fact that that artist creates value that resonates with people such as yourself because people like their work exactly chicken but that's that's not what he was saying earlier yeah this one makes it complicated now cuz it's like so my investment in the Artistry of an individ idual makes me decide to buy a thing where I otherwise wouldn't have would be an example of if anything of the artist having value this is a he he he's very clearly contradicting what he says earlier because he's saying oh well the artist has no value and if you have an artist you know they don't matter they're not going to actually push the uh the product in the end if you have a great artist no one's going to buy that game because of the great artist now he's saying actually you know if you have a great artist people are totally going to buy the game because they love that artist um so I'm not even sure he knows what he thinks on this one quite frankly yeah I think with this this this this I think he should have gone with this one you should have just said like yeah this can happen this is another sort of minor exception where uh uh the success of a thing could be driven by an artist but then again people would be like we've got some great examples of an artist almost defining the like the the big selling point of a we went over this before was that this stream when we mentioned like directors and uh what was that the previous stream yeah no I'm pretty sure I mentioned it this time okay good old good old score Sassi or Shyamalan that last time yeah we talked about that last time as well I know the lines between yesterday and today are very blurry yes we are we are nearing we got 15 minutes of video left oh yes it's a symbiotic relationship a big part of game sales like Doom Eternal for example driven because of Mick Gordon the composer that worked on it and why did people buy it because of Mick Gordon why did that happen Marty odonnell is another one made the Halo music for many years well that's actually not a good example because Mario O'Donnell did make another game and even though he was doing it and he's a well-liked composer that game didn't sell so well which game like just because ju I think it was called Gollum not Lord of Ring goem not Lord of Ring goem but a different one I think G and I don't believe yeah I know wouldn't it be funny Lord of Ring goem yeah is that Golem as in Lord of the Rings Golem like another form of no no no no no no you mean Lord of the Rings no well like a golum you know g l m Golem okay yeah oh is it do you pronounce it Golem it's pronounced a bit differently yeah yeah wait so like the golems that Batman sits on how do you pronounce them I've I think I've heard both way that's like yeah that's I would say that's a gargo aargo oh wait [ __ ] godam oying my braid braid yeah so gollem is spelled with two L's I think Golem is one L yeah it is I think it's from an old Hebrew word oh my God I'm learning something new every day I thought I thought you just they were just called Golems as well not go man I feel like I've talked for so long and that's never come up that's just I don't think ever I don't think it's ever come up I always just thought my God my goodness uh okay well anyway Mario Donal he was uh he he did the music for a game called Golem and I don't believe it's sold super well even though Mario Donald might be yeah I'd say I'd say he definitely fits into the category of one of the most well-known video game uh composers and that's I guess it's it's like just because because of course I think so it seems like his argument is the reason why people care about these artists in their opinions is because they made good stuff in the past basically um and then his words would be like well they made stuff that was of uh of value in the um of of like economic value in the uh in the past like that doesn't necessarily that doesn't necessarily yield anything in terms of like future results or like you know what I mean it's it's uh I'm not sure why you'd be relying on this argument too much mhm the main thing to take away is there's plenty of films he's made that people haven't watched much of main thing to take away is Mario Donald did the music for Lord of Ring goam which is [ __ ] crazy no he didn't man it wasn't very notable compared to Halo I would say the music in ordering goem but you know some artists have a rise some artists have a fall that's that if says it yeah consumer value yes because they love his work so you're saying that people buy it because they perceived value is that what you're saying I don't really understand what you mean with perceived value okay um the perceived value is that people think that his art is good and the reason why people think that his art is good is why his art is selling that's why is that this is this is a I mean again at this point it's just like so the op being good is important compared to people believing it's good and it's like no believing it's good is all the matter like even though they believe it's good because it's good it's just like oh [ __ ] I'm not going get into this again what are the reasons behind these beliefs those are important too of course so the original the original argument he made was something along I don't remember exactly um or he was being accused of um artists opinions don't matter anymore right uh that was the original tweet in regards to the economic value of a of a piece even though even with those specific environmental things you could still have Moni say that everyone needs to see this new film that's coming out and that can make a huge difference in its economic value so in this case this argument he's making actually doesn't matter right because we're not talking about the artist's opinion we're talking about you know the artist's resume essentially right like this is actually an actual ability non non argument here because it has nothing to do with you know if we're talking um Marty O'Donnell his opinion isn't what's doing it here right like he's not being like oh this game's a piece of [ __ ] you shouldn't buy it and it's affecting the market value this is just a question of whether or not that musician that work it's the past work that's informing it not necessarily their opinion like you said right so like this is this argument here is meaningless to the original content yeah I get what you mean actually though I I will say something I was just thinking about is like it's worth remembering as well that like the the amount that you pay for like a game that you're going to play is based on like anticipated value that it has to you not you can buy a game and then be like oh [ __ ] that sucks I wish I didn't pay 60 bucks for this [ __ ] and it's like well then what is its value to you now is it worth the $60 that you paid for it is it you know or do you believe that it's worth less than that or alternatively is it worth tremendously more than the $60 that you paid for it if you played it and you're like holy [ __ ] this game is amazing well he seems to be acknowledging that mario' Donnell and Mick Gordon are talented composers and a and a degree an amount of the sales of each of their respective game franchises is due to their talent but then like if you were to give the task of creating the Halo or Doom score to an AI it wouldn't be able to do it I think he would probably acknowledge even though it contradicts his argument earlier talking about people who will buy a game because an artist that worked on it really liked it it's like well yeah what happens if it's like I I guess it's well neither of these examples are going to look we're in hypothetical world because I believe Mick Gordon isn't working on the next Doom or ever working yeah he never will he had a bad experience on Eternal I think yeah yeah but the point being that you know like let I don't know Doom 3 comes out and then you find out it's like oh well mck Gordon would have been working on it but that he's not because they decided that they were going to use an AI for this one you know like that fact in and of itself especially if you were particularly invested in the artist you know like as he's pointing out in this example you like them because of the value that that artist created I like well [ __ ] I mean [ __ ] what do you think's going to happen if next time around it's like oh we got an AI That's approximating their work but that artist didn't work on it and they didn't make anything from it they're not going to make anything from the purchase of it I mean obviously that could have a tremendous influence on it and he would have to acknowledge that that is the case cuz he's pointing to people buying it because they like what they did before and presumably want to support that Creator well here's the thing hey when um when what was it secret Invasion came out and those uh opening credits you know they they were the AI generated ones it instantly set a lot of people against the show just from that alone that was said like an hour ago r oh that's I'm pointing out the AI voice for like Darth Vader the AI voice for luk yeah well so what I was going to say is like if you on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire and they say to you what determines the economic value of a product and they say a how the product was made B how good the product actually is C what people believe about the product or D what the artist that created it say about the product I'd be like well I guess I'm going with C like if I have to however if you wanted like the what's the correct answer be like well C but what informs C it's like well A and D and lots of other things to be honest with you like people's awareness of all different kinds of things will have massive effects on the economic value because it it will inform and change what people believe what people perceive yeah yes right and I feel like that's that's it good summary yeah people don't people don't often just believe things in a complete and total vacuum right normally they get that information from something right that's made by the customer yes are it's worth it yes exactly and I would argue that if the if the if there was a an AI tool that is equivalent in creating music or creating some form of gameplay that people viewed on the same level as Mick Gordon people would buy the for that reason as well I he does believe that people would that might not have an impact if they found out it's like yeah may he ConEd it would but the um the ultimately most people just want the great music um yeah maybe maybe I suppose what's interesting about that is that um and this this is like a good thing and a bad thing you know like if two great movies come out but one of them is made by scosi You' be like well I know which one I'm choosing that's what most people probably we say cuz it's like yeah well he's attached to it like so I I know I feel more reassured as to what I'm getting I guess or that I get to celebrate him more and I I would like to do that because I have so much respect for him that's that's sort of there's a couple of elements that come with knowing there's a human author that we talked about as well just um yeah more connected to it I suppose soft example for that with unreal five I feel like un people hear that a game is made an unreal 5 and they're like oh my God it's going to be so good and I think that people's behavior from that is an example for what my what I'm trying to say use a harder example please I I think that's the best example I can do not really even if people didn't buy it his music would still be good if a tree falls in the forest did it make a sound yes yes yeah sound waves exist independent of observers see well so this where this is I wish he hadn't said because it really flies in the face of everything else he just said why wasn't his answer here yeah personal value artistic value that's different than the market value and I'd be like I understand that but instead he said does it if people AR buying it could it really considered be considered good it's like of course absolutely and I think asman gold would say yes to that he would have to know that this is the case there's got to be one game or one movie or one show that he likes that wasn't successful well what about I mean just we have a term for it we have hidden gems like barely a lot of a really great game or song or band or whatever that not a lot of people know about better the more people discover it yeah it feels like he's kind of glomming onto that to make it trying to make his argument more Sound by not agreeing to I I I just I think this is a misstep because I I feel like I understood his argument right before he said this and I I feel like I knew what his response should have been to this yeah now now it's like uh oh I feel like we're back in the murky I'm confused I don't understand going on we talked about before but Blade Runner and the thing right it's like well I guess they're not good it's like no they no they're really good it's just the like wrong place wrong time you know they were good before they got more a claim yeah it's not like the a claim that it gets is the that yeah that's that's that's silly and that's the problem with this answer is that if he's understanding this person's use of the word good to mean economically successful then should have read the sentences if people didn't make it economically successful it would still they didn't do that then it would still be economically successful and he'd say oh that doesn't make sense if we're talking about market value but instead he said if a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound that's an odd one you go to a you know a a a [ __ ] Christian uh Revival and you start playing Mick Gordon's Doom soundtrack bro you're going to have some holy water thrown on you that doesn't have anything to do with anything I yeah doesn't fit the taste of that you know that that venue they would do the same thing if you went to a symphony and you started playing that that's not really what people are there for yeah that was a good point yeah like you're about to get an exorcism what are you doing imagine you want to be a sculptor so you go to a successful sculptor's house and you make molds of all their SC sculptures without their permission then you use those molds to make minor modifications to them and then create new art pieces this is literally what AI software is well isn't this what people would do is they would see sculptures and then they would make theirs like the ones that they saw that still feels significantly different than making a mold of someone's sculpture and then recreating the sculpture with that mold as opposed to looking at someone's sculpture and trying to recreate it the way that I recreate it is it's fully my own from the ground up the only yeah just it's just the inspiration is what ties them together not like a literal copy I think we may have talked about it but if you're a sculptor and you're like teaching someone and they're gradually getting better and better and then they show you their final ultimate piece and you're like [ __ ] hell you've done it that's incredible I'm so proud of you versus well I did it but it was it was from your mold they be like oh wonder why I look familiar yeah you'd be like well maybe maybe we can try and get you there with you instead of the mold you know I feel like that's what people do a warehouse full of molds of other people's work created without their permission I don't think that somebody has full permission on how something is consumed once they release it to the public once you release your well they have copy expression into the public but they can well they can also change people's perception of it with their commentary this happens all the time um right but that's the thing is he's talking about art versus art well if he's talking about death of the author I agree with him right yeah exactly but but he's not talking or rather that's not the subject he's talking about that but but the subject is you know fair use as an argument which is not the same thing at all yeah this is talking a part of that own ownership is no longer yours I almost feel like he's talking about spiritual ownership like the you've now left it into the world and so you can't control it like how like sort of like fandoms in a sense are like communities can take they sort of take some level of ownership over the thing that they're fans of not in an official sense but in like a spiritual sense you know how uh uh George releases Star Wars and it has Han shooting greo and then he's like no no no no no no no after it's released he's like no this this is what I meant it's like too late George it's it's beyond your control now I know you're George but that just means we're extra disappointed you no longer have full autonomy and control of how people will respond to that everybody's mad at me that's interesting the bot the bot says your message is too long so it's been like deleted for what now you know I I his bot I guess the bot if if the bot okay if your message is too long it automatically deletes it I mean that can make some sense it's probably one of the basic sort of uh spam protection things I suppose so because I express myself in a certain way and then those people are talking about it that's what happens whenever you express and you put something out into the public art does not store to the people's work stable diffusion it can't even contain uh everyone's data in pure form sure uh then you use those models might modifications okay if a company trains a model from scratch with no base layer like stable diffusion and they have consent from the contributors there would not be an uproar this is why people are mad the artists are being molded and copied without consent or compensation okay I don't find it to be a moral difference whenever an AI tool does it than whenever a person copies it or traces it I don't view that to be a tremendous moral difference you said it don't copying and tracing is different than just taking that's different than taking inspiration from a thing I also want to highlight he said I don't see a moral difference and then he said I don't see a tremend moral difference those two are very different positions is a word that is if I was there be yeah the term tremendous it's just like do you think there's a difference fundamentally do you think they're the same like I would just ask that of him can you explain to me pricing is like you know like it's I mean yeah like I'm not sure why he's comparing it to ring compared it seems like the one is often the the idea of like inspiration of taking inspiration from different art styles or different techniques compared to like tracing I don't think that's the one that you would want to go with for this uh for this point I I can kind of see the the tracing thing cuz like the digital equivalent of that is sort of like the sort uh replicating the distribution of pixels based on colors and ser there's a scale and it's so hard to pick the line cuz I I get what you're saying completely there's so much the level of artistry seems to be like where everyone's trying to decide like I I Define this is the place where the last of artistry exists any further than this and you've gone into goopy non-artist land it's uh it's really difficult though to figure it out um definitively why you think that it is don't ask questions and consume product then get excited for next product this is what people are criticizing because they're saying that I am advocating for this Behavior I am not advocating for this Behavior I am acknowledging that it is the norm this is the norm those are different those are different things mate I'm trying to think of the norm is don't ask questions just consume product and then get excited for next product probably in maybe he's more right than he realizes cuz like my issue is that he almost discourages people from you know aggressively highlighting the issues they take with a thing whether or not it'll make a difference to the consumption of a thing it's like yeah but I think we should encourage that though even if it makes no difference cuz it's the right thing to do how like Asma gold is observing trends like people will buy this dumb thing whatever it is like the nerd crew like the satirical show that they do is just making a sort of similar observation like people will go in droves to see the new Michael Bay movie that's like dog [ __ ] you know and it's just like oh that did really well in the box office let's make another one like on the part of the studios you know and then the cycle just continues like on that level I can I kind of get it to get people to care about why a game is the way that it is this is not people's fight they don't care about that these are yeah I disagree with that like the people do plenty you don't even know how many people will care about whatever issue you're to highlight is you actually you can't really know and I just don't like the discouraging element of it imagine you found out like that you that they stole some stuff and then you're like I guess no one will care it's like make people aware of it it's all right you've got a big voice you have the potential to change a lot of minds and if you change a lot of Minds that's going to have effects on the market so I feel like of all the people who should have this mindset you could be among the least of them someone said you can from previous data LOL yeah we can prove that people will care because we've had several instances of of pro products or entire channels being absolutely obliterated by individual voices highlighting ethical issues what do you mean by that like yeah of course we we would encourage people to do it more but even if we had full data to tell us that you make zero impact why would we encourage people to just give up then it's like no keep going yeah I would also say that you can't know when we have new issues like this is relatively new as much as for an internet person this has been everywhere for some months and years this is still new to a lot of people who've never even heard of like the concept MH so you never know what effect it'll have and and we'll get new issues all the time it's just how especially with technology [ __ ] racing forward average people with extremely complex Lives who have a finite amount of energy to devote to different things and big surprise they're not going to be devoting it to getting mad about a [ __ ] video game it might not be about getting mad as much as they go say for example critical Drinker makes we talked about this with the uh back with the YMS stuff like a lot of people will go to critical Drinker because they don't have time to properly like assess whether or not a film is worth their time based on actors writers and companies and stuff so they they work on his recommendations Drinker could also be like stay away from this and go for this uh trust me the ethical background like like I've got a video explaining it if you want to know the bite siiz version but ultimately like you don't have the time to be too concerned about this but I can give you a vague dire you want to avoid that and go more for this and they can be like well I trust drinker so I will sure cuz that that's what he dedicates his time to right he's invested in this he watches all these movies and like you can trust his opinion after watching so many of his videos and it's like you know what if he says this is good I'll I'll go see it and I'll probably like it right game being stealing pictures right because like I think that we can all agree we can all agree that caring about uh kids working in Cobalt mines or lithium mines is like a million times worse than somebody stealing a picture like this is like infinitely worse but nobody cares about the lithium mines and so I'm not going to hear about the pictures that's I still like I was still be like we should probably still be made aware of that though the lithium mind stuff you know what I mean like I I would never even discourage that and I don't know enough about that industry to know what changes have happened over the last decade or whatever like as far as I know I'm operating just under the idea that it has happened in the past I assume it still happens but I don't know if like if people become more aware of it the industry industry shrinks or maybe it changes or like I don't know anything about it but even then this is just oh there's starving kids in Africa and it's like yeah there are that's bad too but this can also be bad I guess he's trying the comparison he's making is for the sake of like they don't care about that so obviously they won't care about this it's like they might I don't know the proximity issue comes up again but also whoes if they if they care about neither of them I still think we should advocate for the knowledge of these things happening I guess it's his point like oh look at them getting worked up over this thing that isn't as big an issue as this other thing in the world that is a bigger issue is that his point part of the issue there though is again like that might be an individual hypocrisy or there might be a reason for that they might be like I do have a set of pages and tweets about that issue you know what I mean it's just like yeah well you do whatever you know what I mean like there just like way too many assumptions are being made it's the way I feel about it so yes of course people do who has time to ask questions about produ every product that they consume where does he think no and I don't even think it needs to be that complex just um no but but there's nothing wrong with people being made aware of that because I could be made aware of it and go eh you know that could on other things on other products they go oh no I do care about about that one I mean that's just normal that you're going to have differing levels of Interest depending on what it is shirt was made I mean isn't this like how would you guys rate this compared to like what happened to cigarettes like the proliferation of how just just how [ __ ] bad they are would have made a serious difference to people's enjoyment of them right I mean surely it did like one of the reason why I don't want smok cuz I want to get any of the illness that are associated with smoking yeah yeah absolutely the the knowledge of it has definitely um and we've seen it right we've seen over time going from everybody smoking everywhere all the time to oh this is actually really bad for you so you can't smoke inside you shouldn't smoke in your car you know you shouldn't blow smoke into a baby face kind of that has a vastly reduced presence in society yeah and now smoking is a minority and maybe even like a super minority yeah still I think oh yeah yeah it's still well and and a lot of them have transferred now over to um vaping right uh looks like in 2021 11.5% of us adults currently Smoked Cigarettes how often so I I'm I'm not sure just based on the blur but it says uh in 2023 of those youth who ever tried ecigarettes uh approximately half reported currently you using cigarettes indicating that many youths who try ecigarettes remain ecigarettes users ah H so half of the PE so I guess approximately half of the youth who tried ecigarettes are currently using them okay so I guess if you gotta you got to have about half the people who tried them kept using them or at least used them when the survey was done in 2023 and then of course CU just said and yeah we traded that out for everyone being fat or whatever it's like well to take it seriously it's like that is an epidemic right like the like heart disease related things obesity is like a huge problem in the west and it's like yeah that a lot of people have said that's an education problem but at the same time there like a lot of things that would come into it um but you know the the Highlight being people are aware that it's killing them and they're still doing it but that doesn't mean we give up or we can't change it can change it surely surely they are better off for knowing that than worse off for knowing ex and so like what I guess I'm saying is that that's a way more serious exchange of cost and we can make a difference of it still so like why I just feel like encouraged about all of this like we should we should make people more aware as best we can with all of these different sectors I'm sure all of these things were made ethically as well right come on what is this like what why are we why are we living in this world of these people that think that because they have a lot of free time to fixate on things on the internet that normal people that have average lives are somehow inferior because they do something else with their time instead of that it's such a uh I I'm not I didn't get that at all not like they're inferior but they they could benefit from the knowledge I would say that about myself if I didn't have it yeah ridiculous thing and so patronizing and obnoxious you are not a shitty person if you don't want to thoroughly investigate and draw some draw the line the more moral line at the exact same place that some random other idiot thinks that you should was this ever the argument that you need to be so incredibly invested in the research that you are an expert was that ever the argument here well and this person's been personally offended you can tell we we we went over this I think in the beginning Montage it's like they're clearly very angry they they believe what the asan gold is saying is not only a reflection of reality but encouraging of the reality that who gives a [ __ ] about artists give us what we want that sort of thing that's and I'm not saying anyone's saying that I'm saying that that's how they felt and that's why they're angry and that's probably why a lot of people are angry should draw it at like I'm sorry but I just really I I don't see I I I don't see these people having any any moral Authority they don't you live in reality yeah exactly what they mean is you're a shitty person to me yeah no that's totally fine and they can have an opinion all they want it's a bit disingenuous to over represent how much of a choice people have in their day-to-day lives like you don't support slavery I guess you can't use a mobile phone or live in this Society I completely disagree with this point of view these are people who cannot even uphold these standards for their own level of uh for their own entertainment and I'm going to give you an example read this person's uh thing black multimedia artist voice actor uh he they and he this is clearly a person who cares about LGBT issues and the black lives matter and all that it's not clear how what do you think that their opinion on Elon Musk is I bet they think he's a her a terrible [ __ ] person a lot of people think Elon Musk is transphobic a lot of people think he's an [ __ ] so this person is on a platform building the brand and continuing to make billions of dollars for a person who I think that they would is actively at war against certain identities that they either uh you know sympathize with or are part of so whenever this person can't even stop their own entertainment and you know like you can't even avoid using a social media platform no I'm not going to respect your opinion on telling me what video games to play so that is an interesting assumption about a lot of things to do with this person and the way that they engage with this platform and if he's completely correct about all of that I agree with him that is hypocritical and they should be a little bit ashamed of how they try and project a particular image but simultaneously don't really believe in it however if we are speculating on who they could be wouldn't you include the potential for this person to say that they believe that their contribution to the success of this platform is outweighed by how much they use the platform and its you know availability to promote that the fact that it's a a terrible platform yeah just the same way that we hear on stream like we if we bought if we bought tickets to go see you know the Marvels but then we Wi on to YouTube and we convinced everyone and told everyone about how terrible it was then obviously it would outweigh the you know the results of that so yeah you you can engage with a platform that you think is you know not great or you can engage in something to ultimately you know produce a better outcome overall yeah sure well and and why I feel like I that this should be mentioned in his an analysis is he is responding to them he's listening to them on this platform he wouldn't be if they were on a different one mhm yeah also assume that they don't like he on musk I guess as part of the hypothetical yeah but that again they I'm sure they would argue that's out yeah I mean in this case assuming that that is the case you could make that argument that sure my presence on the platform outweighs the good that I'm doing for the platform and if you were super like super super in to avoiding using products when it came to um unethical Behavior to produce them uh if you rule out you know being able to use phones and laptops then you've essentially you you've severely diminished your ability to get your word out against them and if everyone had the same standard then all of the people who were against you know lithium mining or whatever you wouldn't see them on the Internet you they wouldn't be making posts or videos on YouTube or anything like that because they can't use the thing that it would take to spread the word it feels like that's just sort of that yet you participate in society curious a little bit yeah yeah I get that I just um I'm just saying we we're we're strictly hypothetical like theorizing about what this person may or may not believe Asin Gold's doing it too I find what his conclusion there was interesting and valid it's just that there's a couple of other options that can explain this as well yes so much hypocrisy environmentalists who wear Patagonia jackets or buy EVS with batteries made in China yes and and and this is really the truth right and so I understand what you're saying you're saying that somebody needs a cell phone in order to exist in society my argument would be that if there were cell phones that were made completely ethically and they were worth they cost twice as much money nobody would buy them I don't think that this person would save up their money and buy the uh you know ethically sourced cell phone I think that they would buy the cheap one just like would yeah some people absolutely well remember remember when he says everyone he doesn't mean that that's right I'm sorry I made that he didn't say wait did he say everybody in this sentence he said nobody right so when he says nobody doesn't mean nobody that's always have because they don't want to spend the extra money because it's always very easy to criticize and uh you know [ __ ] on people for doing something because they because like because they want to but whenever you are held to the same standard somehow it's always different no I think a lot of the times this depends on like the the sacrifice that you would have to make it is a huge sacrifice to foro having laptops phones and everything like that especially if you want to spread a message but it is not really much of a sacrifice to not play a particular video game or maybe don't buy a shoe brand or things of that nature right so if someone who would have would have had to make a very big sacrifice is criticizing someone who really didn't have to make a big sacrifice at all or in fact a very small or even minuscule one then I mean it might technically be hypocrisy on a certain level but I wouldn't consider it you know hypocrisy I think there's a meaningful distinction between I feel like people have a thing for this right when they pop a penny in a thing and they go oh you know just I just want to do do a little something you know help help out where I can that sort of like a it's the equivalent of that where you're just like people want to make a difference and yeah you can point out almost cynically it's like yeah but you're not willing for it to cost you much are you you're like okay but I still want to just make a difference where I can in places that matter to me and a lot of it's built on the knowledge of the the option you know the knowledge of what what thing is wrong it's not it it's really not these are people who said you can't you're agreeing with him just weiring it better i' I've we I've already said a lot of it is that I I do agree with him on a lot I um I his viral clips and a lot of the harsher ways he he words things which sometimes he's admitted has some intention behind it have been unwise I believe whose lives do not revolve around the ethics of AI in the same way this person's life doesn't revolve around the ethics of Elon Musk we all pick and choose our battles we don't care about these things many people don't and there are all things that we participate in that we're hypocritical about and the problem isn't that people are being hypocritical it's that people want other people to carry their flag whenever they won't do it themselves they won't even carry their own flag they want you to pick up their flag and run with it whenever they won't even do it themselves and I'm not talking about moving out and being like the UN I mean he's describing essentially virtue signaling and I agree that's that's shitty when people do that yeah yeah a bomber and living outside of electricity I'm not talking about that I'm talking about just not consuming entertainment content that you find to be harmful like how much do you want to how much do you want to bet that this this person probably thinks Amazon is bad and how much do you want to bet that this person probably has Amazon Prime I'm sick of this this is outrageous no this again yeah there's a lot of people that do that and feel that so yeah it's crazy like I'm not talking about you know somebody you know not being able to oh well you know you think the US is bad go move somewhere else I'm not talking about moving countries I'm talking about the way that you consume entertainment the way you consume ENT people these people cannot even regulate the way that they consume entertainment but they expect you to and they're going to tell you that you're a bad person whenever you don't they can't they're building you're building a straw man out of that guy you're right you're right I could be totally wrong he could love Elon Musk and he could I think Amazon is the greatest country of all time I was going to say I'll even be completely fair to him he's probably right about what they believe but at the same time you can acknowledge you're not going on fact you're going on assumption yeah maybe yeah you're absolutely right I could be wrong but I don't think I am I I I want to reiterate my original point and and then we're going to move on uh I am completely right and the reality is that I will prove myself right every single day forever and these people will keep coping and you know like having their little uh support groups on Twitter because reality is mean I didn't make it this way they didn't make it this way it is this way it's not my fault I'm not telling you that it's good in some ways it is in other ways it's not getting mad at me for saying something that's obviously true is provably true and it will be continue to provably be true this isn't going to do anything I'm not in the business of talking about how the world should be and if I am there are a lot of other things that should change which number one I you you could be in that business if you wanted to too because you could just you could just start talking about how you think the world should be um it's your choice to not be I guess as a part of that so but you could if you want and for the record he said a bunch of things that I completely agree with a bunch of things I completely disagree with a bunch of things that are contradictory to some of the things you said before a bunch of half-thought out positions which I think is completely fair but it's just funny to see that level of conviction after all that like I am [ __ ] right you're like all right okay which part of you again yeah I mean not only is his argument a little bit too broad I feel and he's contradicted himself one one too many times where making claims like I'm right everyone else is wrong and like whatever everybody's just coping and M disagree with me like that's a little too much I I will say look all right this isn't like when xqc decided to go into the corner of the room start crawling around on the ground dude that would I'm sorry I that'll live in my mind forever how could anyone so great getting on the ground and crawling around like a wor to prove how not mad you are as if as gold I guess thing that he's defending is the whole the the opinion the opinions of artists don't matter because consumers buy things well I mean like that's that that I I still think that's wrong why would you say that's his position after everything we've talked about I mean I think if he's referring to the original statement that he said the clip that got taken around the internet because the one where he said artist opinions don't matter which a lot of people interpreted as him simply saying as you know in isolation which I like I said I I feel like most people should with any basic understanding of human beings assume that's not going to be his position and that you noted immediately how it was cut in a weird way you couldn't even know what was being talk Al about like I said I I have nothing but sympathy for him on that one I would always prefer to see what somebody like seeing him explain his position over the course of some amount of time is preferable to just like whatever this thing was that was clipped out that was a minute long that is devoid of the context before and after always now I understand this position more than at the beginning where I had no clue about any of it wack is that we've covered a video here that this is probably the most mixed video we've come across at least in a long time very mixed yeah I mean compared to yesterday's video gez yeah I mostly agree with I think what he's trying to say right he's just a horrific Communicator um sometimes he is which maybe that means he he's overall but you know what I mean like because some of the things he says you're just like y agree he's I think he's articulate but he's not consistent and at least not in this he he seems to be bouncing back and forth and maybe it's just because of the format of him responding to random tweets and talking to his own chat so he's just you know jumping from subject to subject to subject back and forth but uh it is a little hard to sort of see the consistency in his argument across it um especially when you're using multiple you know meanings of the word value and so on yeah value and uh matter those two words that came up a lot and they they we need to know better context almost every time if you're going to be using those words but some of it got crossed later on when like that person said about the you the personal uh nostalgic or whatever value artistic value economic value like yeah it can get complicated social media which would have reduced about half of these posts in the first place these values don't mean anything to anybody outside of a perpetually and terminally online group of of most freaks I mean let's be honest there's a lot of Fes here okay personal tax R don't have an anti argument oh yeah and also by the way um there's a lot of people that were making fun of uh my room uh the fact that I had a dead rat for an alarm clock I'm sorry what I don't know about that I need some context on that one know um I didn't catch that that I'll I'll I'll play again alarm clocked by a rat by the way um there's a lot of people that were making fun of uh my room uh the fact that I had a dead rat for an alarm clock what does it mean I assume it's an alarm clock like a novel alarm clock shaped like a rat that like is is that sort of like how you power a clock with a potato you can just plug it into a rat's corpse bad news for all of you oh no it's so when he said that I was like [ __ ] yeah you're correct nobody should be saying you're wrong on this subject because you have a dirty room or because you have a dead rat for a lot wait what and I was like what what and so I Googled it and and I fetched the context so that we could understand what he's talking about because that I thought the exact same thing I thought he he had a novelty clock that was like a porcelain thing there a dead rat and the people made fun of him for that or something I was like I wouldn't care about that right yeah this brings back all the stuff where where before we came onto the screen you were like you got to be ready for this th this was not as you can tell from the portion of this video I was like yeah this has all been chill we can just check out the arguments and respond and then he said that and I was like what are you talking about I I've never heard about this before and a lot of people have even assumed it's like he's just being hyperbolic like okay wa does he explain the alarm clock we're going to let it play John we're just going to let it play we go that we're making fun of uh my room uh the fact that I had a dead rat for an alarm clock the fact that I uh wiped blood on the walls uh the fact that most of my teeth have fallen out and I would just like to remind you that that person has a better grip on it than you do there's been like a dead rat in my house for like the past [ __ ] like 3 days and I can't find where he is because you can smell the [ __ ] but you don't know where he is and the thing is what's so annoying about that is the fact that like you have a dead rat in the house and you rat in the house and you don't know where he is who's a dead rat as an as an why is it skipping [ __ ] it's it did on our head the [ __ ] going on about that is the fact that like you have a dead rat in the house and you don't know where he is and you can actually use a dead rat as an alarm clock because whenever the Sun comes out the rat will begin to smell bad and the smell will wake you back up from your sleep get to dead rat out I don't need to anymore doesn't smell bad it would the thing is I used to use a dead rat as an alarm clock actually uh for my because basically what happened was whenever the sun would come up it would start cooking the corpse of the Rat and then it would start smelling again and then the smell would wake me up so I would use the rat effectively as an alarm clock and as soon as I uh as soon as it you know it got hot enough it would wake me up and then I would know oh [ __ ] it's time to stream that that person has better grip on reality than you do have you guys ever done that before okay I'm not even going to ask about the blood wall I don't even know if I even want to know oh um so this isn't me this is not real that's so funny to me this is a meme right you know what don't let the big part dissuade you from man I've got a dead rat somewhere in my house that's making it you can close all your doors and then you could check and see which room smells it's not just that it's that someone then asked him like oh any luck with a dead R he said doesn't matter anymore cuz it stops smelling yeah it doesn't matter it's fine just leave it just leave it there the the desicated this is this is not a meme I don't think it's a meme I don't think he's joking he seems serious about that I'm trying to be as like fair and understanding as possible it's [ __ ] funny but I live like that well I surely there's like Health conserns like yeah like that's not good like rotting corpses around you are not good the fumes and the gases and just like you're inviting other things because of that like bugs and roaches and like I mean and plus isn't there like doesn't it ever kick in that sense of like like I don't know Pride or not even Pride like self respect a lot of people are saying he's a hoarder it's like I thought hoarders collect things that AR dead animals I don't know if a thing crawls in their collection and dies well it's theirs now I mean to to be fair I think like he would see the humor in it like if you were to like you know point it out but that like he he also like he can't find the rat like I'm sure like he wants to get rid of the smell I don't think he looked very hard because imagine the work it would take to move all that [ __ ] around find where the rat is people say loads more lore about him like his his stuff he gets up to one of the things I had read is that he he'll apparently like he doesn't care about eating things that are like well over expiry date like um and that some of his fans have Consin he's going to accidentally kill himself at some point because he'll eat you know something that's well his teeth fell out or whatever well that's going to potentially happen I guess if you don't can that happen for me in expired things or would that just be like not brushing them I don't know it's probably whole buch of seen lots of soda right he he has hundreds of things of soda so he clearly just drinks a lot of I know nothing about the blood wool and several people have said don't look into the blood wool so I'm not going to look into it don't worry I will take you than I don't know what the [ __ ] that's about like why wouldn't you just have some paper towel on standby you do that once maybe like just to like get rid of the excess if you're bleeding a lot but then You' wipe the wall off surely like clean it up like you don't just leave it there but why would he even like this is what I mean I was so confused at the end where he was just like people been bringing up my blood wall and my dead rat I was like what the [ __ ] what even what what does this have to do with and the funny part is it's like this has nothing to do with his argumentation but now I'm just curious about the dead rat alarm clock which like I said I thought was going to be porcelain with a little tongue hanging out or something yeah it's like it's a like it's a funny little mouse with x's for eyes that's in a fake mouse trap and you like oh you hit it and it goes squeak squeak or whatever or something no no no I thought it was going to be using the chemical composition of a real rat corpse to somehow power an alarm clock like a potato would like a little bit of a mad scientist yeah but I just you know what as well he's like yeah you could use it as a long CL like is that even that effective like I feel like that would be fairly inconsistent depending on like what the weather is and the temperature that you keep your room do you keep on the window sill or do you maybe do you have like a m magnifying gloss that's aimed at the rat because if it's not directly in the sun it's not going to warm up that much it'll just really it'll probably just it'll just take the temperature of the room if it's not in the sunlight I'm Sur that would narrow it down right like I don't even want to think about and apparently there's there's a lot more of the like you could see House tours from other people that that this is just apparently just it's just normal I it's like okay as it like it's it's not some crazy thing to Asen gold fans and it's crazy cuz I've been aware of him for a long time I never knew about any of the this uh but it's not there's another thing if I didn't want people to know that or make fun of me for it I wouldn't have said it look at them guys look at them I think they little small ones this is and this's music in the background no what is that remember how I mentioned like no no way no I was surprised none of you wanted to like poke into why I was so weird about asking about whether you I thought you meant that was the rat thing i' like the surprise of it I wanted to be surprised no no that no no no I'm saying the about halfway through the stream I said hypothetically if you had some bread that you spotted some maggots in could you imagine anyone could could you imagine anyone choosing to eat that after noticing that is that what's on that that's this is how it's linked and that's what he says in the clip he's like look you can see them uh you obviously it's not very high dep so you can't really make it out what see right there I don't know if I should eat those or not I kind of feel like that that person has a better grip on reality than you do but I do that's actually gross God when I was like what what like what is the context for the thing the loads of people commented like oh yeah this isn't as bad as e the [ __ ] it's like why why oh my God I just need to like make sure everyone understands don't do any of these things there please don't yeah that's awful do not very bad for you um and I understand like people who are fans of his stuff no wonder they want him to stop doing stuff like that it's like this could kill you kill get some terrible disease or infection or something gross is one thing unhealthy is another like you don't to do unhealthy things yeah I I know what to say about that there's not much to say about it you actually try to genuinely put on a uh an attempt to listen to other people's perspectives and point of views points of view and like that's that is something I I generally try to do now is it something that I always do no I do not always do this but it is something that I generally try to do two plus pow is explaining yourself but if you express how you feel in a painting song suddenly you wouldn't matter this is uh Bob viz who's got a couple viral tweets going after him I mean this is the two hours is him responding to arguments you know so I it's not like he's done a two-hour essay about why how right he is and then secondly um the wouldn't matter part again it's it's been misunderstood as being like a general casual as opposed to economically speaking mhm which has been the whole problem pretty much I think remember FL Happy Bird hugely popular game these are the tweets that came out after the video people still copy its gameplay today remember how the creator of Flappy Birds stopped selling it for a while because he felt it was too addictive it's almost like that was proof that an artist's feelings could directly impact consumers yeah and I think this is something that I'd like Asma go to talk about is the economic impact of a single artist's opinion whether it be the one who created it or someone who influence is the one who created it even it's uh right yeah I keep thinking about what at H bomber guy said in his be mind these all had [ __ ] like 30k likes on it it was crazy latest video regarding how plagiarists fundamentally don't respect the people they steal from and how that can be applied to AI algorithms ripping off artists and what that says about the people who created and use said alos and that I'm not even sure Asin gold would disagree with that um you would you would say like yeah it is indicative of how a lot of people don't care and that that's something that should I I would hope as go would say that's something that maybe should change and we should try and do something about it where we can you know not in some kind of crazy way but making people more aware of the things they should appreciate behind the things that they love but um and then this was the other clip that went viral and I think it's so [ __ ] dumb that he's getting like the cancellation because the the title of this stream by the way the trial of asmin go is more so related to the internet's trial of him I guess you could say we've done a trial of him but I wouldn't really go that direction more so just checking out what happened and then using it as a vehicle to just talk about some stuff cuz we like chatting here and uh this one this one's just funny uh but he's like there's like people who [ __ ] the commentary on this clip has been insane like I guess I'll play it first it's bman oh [ __ ] I am Vengeance I am the Knight I am Batman I don't that doesn't sound like Batman to me yeah like I just I I don't see that that sounds like Alfred not so and that's the clip um the reason that would have gone viral for anyone who doesn't know is that's essentially the quintessential voice of Batman Kevin Kevin yeah so it's uh it's the final role for him right in any Batman thing or anything yeah and that's why it says thank you Kevin see as well in faint yeah in faint text there um but yeah I would I would attribute this to a writing problem not a delivery problem I mean it clearly is Kevin Conroy but like just the line of like Batman just jumps in like I am Vengeance like like why would he say that what he's not saying also this is meant to be the all the Justice League are evil right cuz it's for the Suicide Squad game yes um but there were people who saying like I want this for man [ __ ] dead when seeing this clip and I was like Jesus wow oh okay well yeah and it like had significant levels of likes it's like oh my God and it's a it's a thing of like if you've annoyed people in any other way and then they share Clips like this they'll just be like yeah this is reason for you to be taken away from it it's like what the [ __ ] um that's from the Animated Series iconic scene with Joko that's the thing I don't think it's I don't think we're supposed to think that is from what we saw in the trailer um like he doesn't enter that place and then say that at least I I can't know for sure but yeah even if he did right they took what they could get because they wanted to you know do an homage to somebody that worked with them that was now dead well yeah I mean and the yeah people like how the [ __ ] don't you know that is Batman's voice and stuff like that and it's like well I guess he he just didn't but that that's it that's that's all I could gather for why those people like Asma gold needs to be destroyed I was like I mean yeah because if you're not a big like if you're not into Batman or you never really watched any Batman content you just might flat out not know that um I guess one my argue he probably should I'm assuming he's played all the Arkham games I don't know you'd have thought uh yeah I don't know uh because I haven't played any to my knowledge um I figure that you would have just heard you would have heard Kevin Conroy as Batman in one way or another because he's been playing the character like 30 years um like all the way1 yeah across video games animated films that you figure that you would have heard him at at one point he is he is the quintessential like voice of Batman yeah mhm which is why this went viral I guess but uh they have it and I think I've got one bonus meme this is uh actually made aware bonus Mee time I have seen this I know what this is you have seen this so I almost I don't want to give any preamble to chat because they're so familiar with these two crazy characters so we're just going to play this clip this they could I'm G to let chat be like wait what just happened hey chat if anyone's just listening this is where you need to you need to look at the screen okay look at what happens this a visual this is visual required eyeballs needed demanding answers amid an escalating spat with Pakistan overnight Pakistan launch retaliatory strikes on Targets in Southeastern Iran just across their shared border can I just I just want to highlight like xqc's [ __ ] reaction of like that's bad when xqc is uh xcc is the the the right one here overnight pakist stries on just AC and the video was not interrupted or changed in any way no this is not an edit this is but Iran says no wait hold on hold on [ __ ] [Laughter] you chut chut hold on hold on R you live [ __ ] hold on hold on CH shirt you smell are you telling me that I reacted to a Ed educational video about the whole thing about the whole ordeal and I get cancelled for reacting and you're telling me the same people are praising this guy this editor who went after me and he literally monetized a video where he gets off the [ __ ] screen Pakistan um carrying out deadly mil yeah the the the Hassan has found a new way to Cur the criticisms of being around unbelievable that in his world in his mind he's like the problem was that it was an empty chair that was the problem so the way that I solved that problem is not by pausing the video or remaining in place and reacting to the video and providing commentary the solution is put a visual on screen of me reacting and that solves the problem it's right how is that possible how is that possible that he thinks that that would the problem was the chair that was the problem so I'll fix it by putting just a canned reaction image of me on screen I can't just pause the video for a few moments while I go pee and then come back I can't can't do the same thing cuz remember how he's like well I had the video on my phone when I left so it's all good he just was incapable of understanding what the problem was he couldn't do it it was impossible clearly it still is so funny though because it's just proof that this bothers him to no end and he doesn't know how to solve it by being isn't this soing the fact that he feels compelled to put an image of ah look at me I'm reacting woohoo instead of an empty chair means he knows that there's something wrong that's what I say yeah what what I think is really funny is that people are are the the argument that people are making about this is oh no not CNN oh how would you take the advertising dollars away from CNN and it's like that is you have completely missed the point like not even human your brain is because it's CNN CNN is not allowed to what make money off of the like there because it's CNN they're allowed to have the value of the things that they made completely extracted by H son that was easily the number one response in in in defense of this clip that I've seen like easily I also want to but then why did do what he did it's like so but anyway I someone said like freaky can't believe this has he seen Hassan previously I have to defend the idea that this is a new low like he's got that's such a pathetic attempt at hiding it look how obvious it is he's not wearing the same clothes it's like let me just click the button that puts me on automatic there we go loading whatever you think I'm still here reacting to videos when I'm still not reac he literally just doesn't want people scream shot in the empty chair that's it yes that's so pathetic I mean there's ways there's ways you could have masked this right like for one take out the dialogue where he says I'm going to go pee so like like the audience they hear that they're going to be like okay he's leaving his chair now and all of a sudden he's back there again like okay you've clearly edited this if they took that piece of dialogue out they could assume that okay maybe there was some visual glitch or something even though you can't really assume that because the CNN footage is still proceeding uninterrupted but then you also could have you could have you could have put an artificial jump cut in the CNN footage as well to sort of cover that up like there's things the editor could have done but just didn't bother like all of that is simp than just pausing you know I can't just he can't PA he can't do it he can't just pause well I'm still watching on my phone so it's all good that's what's so sad right like he he can't just be like I'm not here to react to this right now I am just going to pause the video do my thing come back and then I'll resume and then the re the reason why because he wants to he wants to extract all of the the value of the video yeah he doesn't want he doesn't want to lose viewers right because if the video is paused people are GNA like dip out all the benefits of the video while doing nothing to transform it or turn it into my own creation or still benefiting from it it's just hilarious that he thinks that he's he's achieved something by well see look it's not an empty chair it's me with a canned reaction a canned generic nonspeaking reaction to this video it's so lame yeah and it's it's like it's so counterproductive because this is a a massive red it's not even a red flag it's like a siren a wailing siren it's a what are they called a a a kacon a a cat no claxon yeah like a big noisy whiny thing with signs that say look at me look at me and look what I've done that's all this does is you're bringing an insane amount of attention to it if he would have done his normal bad thing people might have just gone yeah that's Assan just up to his you know old [ __ ] again you know what new he's doing bad stuff what is he supposed to do die I I I I don't know I don't know man that's the only other option I guess if it's this or die you know well it's quite a quandry quite a moral quandry but he can no longer with this clip I think he can no longer make the argument that he doesn't know it's bad or that isn't bad right like or that it's fair use or that it's transformative or any of that I don't think you can make any of those arguments that he's made in the past because now you're saying oh look you clearly know that this is an issue in some way right and it doesn't matter what argument you make about it if it is an issue because oh somebody isn't there reacting then you know whatever or oh people will leave if they don't see you whatever your argument ends up being it is clear that there is a problem with having an empty chair and somebody not ly no he would just tell you he's just trying to counter people doing memes of like spreading lies about him by doing screenshots of his chair what was the thing recently of him getting mad at like lsf about people making fun of him yeah they ever do that there there's a screenshot of him saying to the uh head mods of live stream fail is a subreddit which is a pretty popular one that just shares lots of drama or notable things about streamers and he asked them to stop posting about him in general because they're all like the too much of it is making fun of him and making fun of his lowering view count which uh oh my god well I don't even know why he would [ __ ] give a [ __ ] about losing x amount of viewers while he has a video that he's watching paused I mean the dude's a millionaire when I'm he means in general overall this the trends for his channel are going down um he's losing viewers consistently and like people are making fun of him for it he doesn't like that yeah he doesn't want he doesn't want to be turned into a LOL cow he doesn't like that which what and he thinks that might that might be the reason why is that he's pausing the like pausing the videos even think I think it's Petty enough that it's literally just I don't like it it makes me sad stop it like don't let people make fun of me like that oh my God mean he's man I get to approve how I am made fun of which should be new well it's funny because if anyone was asked especially in our [ __ ] Community why do you think he's losing viewers like oh let me just pull out the list like why that's probably happening man you know this is all hilarious and all but I mean that that dead rat alarm clock thing I'm still thinking about that that's um I I figure it would be that'll stick with you a little bit but it'll linger it'll linger silence there for a while I was stunned I don't know how a human being can live like that that's just and of course the the bread holy [ __ ] talk about the blood wool we're not looking into the blood wo like physically it makes me cringe it makes me tremble I mean I I I wouldn't give up on something like that I mean I can sympathize with being frustrated if like you smell it and it's like you're looking for it and you can't [ __ ] find it anywhere then it must be in the walls or something right but then I wouldn't stop there I wouldn't be like oh whatever I'll just live with the smell and just use it as an alarm clock from hence forth like no yeah CU I don't believe it's in the walls it's probably buried underneath his his many piles random crap and garbage I just don't understand how it could be tenable to smell a decaying rat like and then you can just accept that like I guess I guess this is life now me living in this room with this rat I just jeez oh God I will coexist with the smell the be honest with you that's four words I never thought would be in a selection dead rat alarm clock how did these end up like this gez anyway that wraps up this stream yeah we learn anything yeah I don't have to specify what it is do II because it's just so obvious and wonder like in South Park when it was like you know I like I learned something today no we didn't don't you well we we've that's that's an update for everybody on our opinions related to a lot of different things like I don't know [ __ ] ethics in in in AI slightly we managed to cover a lot of that we got a bit in about um you the the many positions you can take on on cultural enrichment or awareness of issues that relate to the the production and consumption of products and how that affects the economic markets you oh all of the things you know it's nice to just jump into that and maybe we'll do it again sometime later if if Asen go gets into another controversy when he misremembers like who was the voice of someone else in a game maybe that'll happen but um yeah I mean what I wanted to say though in conclusion was that it's absurd that he got in so much trouble but that is usually how it works it's funny because like it's like why doesn't Hassan get into more trouble he's like an actual bastard but then again I guess he he's been crying lately that he does get into too much trouble and people are making fun of him so I don't know maybe maybe and uh yeah I I I tend to agree someone said last stream was way more painful like yeah yes yeah this was not as painful as that one the Weir grueling comes to mind in the previous one this one was Dan what's the conversation it's cut Point like half of the people that watch H are sort of used to him being a clown and saying and doing stupid things so when he does it it's just like oh whatever it's just Assan being Assan but then asman go does something like relatively mildly stupid and then it's just like oh my God I can't believe this thing and then it's a whole thing MH um but hey before we go John what did you tell people what you doing what are you up to where what's happening there oh man I'm just doing my usual stupid [ __ ] I just made a video on arbing the chief video about New Year's resolutions about Chief vowing to [ __ ] arbiter's mom a little bit less in the ass this year a and the at the end of the episode you see whether he follows through on that promise it's really dumb but anyway if you want to see it John Graham on YouTube yeah yeah as per usual we uh appreciate you joining us for such extended periods of excessive discussion and harsh realities I'll put it that way in terms of oh man I I had a lot of fun doing this thank you for inviting meate it this was this was interesting this was an event it sure was boy oh boy Mr morti what are you up to where you what's happening uh I'm working on another video um but in the meantime you can always find me at youtube.com reallycool because my YouTube channel is really cool and um I worked on a recently a 12-h hour long video that I'm very proud of like everyone to go see it's the entire history of video games all of it and uh every second I love that video man I I haven't worked my way through the whole thing yet but like I've seen a few hours of it I'm I'm I'm working my way through it it's a work in progress but it's awesome dude I really appreciate that yeah like it took me that was nine months I worked on that so wow I would really like it if everybody went and saw it and give me thousands and thousands of hours of watch time how often will you update it do it yeah never never well uh the you know link to your channel and you can find that video with ease it is excessively well researched and edited and you know it might just be the best video on the subject which is you're actually against a couple of decent big hitters on that one right I mean you know there's some other guys out there there are some other guys out there um yeah obviously thank you both for joining us this is a this is a strange different EAP as many of them are you never know what'll happen never know what subjects we'll cover never get stranger though this is we we've Peak with strangeness for this weekend a strange weekend you know back to normaly it's normal from here on out we got it out of our system 2024 is the year of normaly yeah back to someone just saying She-Hulk was good who'll be like there you go back to yeah there yeah nice I remember those days ah yes everyone say good rat is like hm that was bad rat that's the bad bad rat that was sad rat that's what that was sad rat sad sad that a rat died and it's we want Happy rat yeah happy rat not dead alarm clock rat uh bringing Rags anything you guys want to talk about before we go I don't think so yeah I don't think anything's changed dramatically since I went to sleep um since today yeah it hasn't been that long since we last you know the deal working working not since last time but you know working after this working um well so I can give the update I was going to mention yesterday but now the it's things getting a little bit weird in terms of how I'm not sure how I'm releasing everything now we've got about five or six catch UPS six episodes of TV ready to go an EAP movies is this about to release two episodes of EAP that are going to get out now one on backup there's another one that we've recorded ready to go so there's all of those I got to figure out exactly where and when they're going but then also Lord the Rings which I just couldn't fix the trilogy thing I don't know what's going on the copyright is an [ __ ] it always comes up for things that are clearly not the thing so I had a final idea of what if I split them back into individual movies so that it doesn't prompt the hyper Bots and fellowship and Return of the King hav been clear for a week but two towers just just just keeps getting hit not sure what's going on but I was thinking to myself like what if um what if they were releasing that way and two towers is just the one that gets hit so that at least the other two can have some AdSense and then after that I can release the individual videos so we're going to see how long if I can get the both to survive two weeks fellowship and Return of the King I'll probably re-release them as EAP movies individuals and then I'll unlist the trilogy one and Link it in the description the others so that they can have some that this been copyright hit the uh the the trilogy one I can't fix it so that might be the solution but then I'm also working on the it's going to be like 20 IND individual Super Cuts of the conversations and right now as it stands I'm I'm close to completing like the major work that needs to be done to collect it all up but we've got like I mentioned before there's like a Baria one an Aragon one a Theoden one um one that relates all to the themes of Lord of the Rings one that relates all to the production of Lord of the Rings so that they're bite-sized versions so that any of you that was like I can't just casually sit down and watch seven hours of EAP movies you'll have they're all an average of about 20 to 30 minutes so you can uh check those out if you want and that's another way for the compensation to come back a little bit because that project was enormous and painstaking so um yep they worked very hard on it so knowing that they weren't making you know stuff on it it really sucks to see it's it ain't Fair it ain't Fair it ain't fair and so uh what I'm guess I'm saying with all that just mention super chats like yeah that's what I meant by ketchups there are five ketchups that are ready to go and obviously me and rag going to be recording recording more of them but but you heard what I just said correctly there's about 45 videos to be released on moer and they're ready now so it's like I'm just trying to figure out exactly how that's going to look yeah you got uh you got all of Loki season 2 is done yes oh yeah I almost forgot about that don't don't forget that would make me sad but yes part of my list I said EAP TV six episodes of EAP TV just like a show that doesn't have any staying power you just [ __ ] forget that it happened you know well what's funny too is that I haven't included star gri that's once per week and then of course the regular EAB episodes that upload so I wish you got two this week people yes that's what I'm say it's just like you know it's like when's the schedule for think it's like I figure this out it's going to have to be three videos a week at this point uh maybe four I don't know um anyway that's the update and uh you know more stuff on the way but I think me Rags and fre you might just chill out for a little bit you know after all that that that weekend thank you all so very much for joining us you have yourselves a good morning night afternoon whatever it may be but for now we're going to say good boy yeah goodbye everybody bye bye see you later byee

Channel: MooLer

Views: 76,271

Keywords:

Id: roMDjOJASug

Length: 398min 47sec (23927 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 01 2024