Welcome, friends, to another
edition of Economic Update, this one at the beginning of a new year. So let
me wish you all a happy, and a better, new year. The program, as you know, is about economics —
about the income; the debts; the jobs we have, or don't — for ourselves, for our children.
The economics of the world we live in. And I'm your host, Richard Wolff.
I want to begin by responding to questions many of you have sent to me, to comment
about President-elect Joe Biden's economic team, and in particular the progressives that are
said to be on the team and that are said to reflect the openness of Joe Biden to the
progressive wing of the Democratic Party. Let me begin with some general comments here.
First of all, the economic team contains a remarkable number of carryovers, or holdovers,
if you like, from the Obama government that Mr. Biden served a few years back. It's as
if the Democratic Party wants to suggest that Mr. Trump was a kind of aberration, a weird
four-year interlude, and that now we're going to get back to normal, or we're going to get
back to usual, or we're going to get back to business as it was before Mr. Trump. I find
this frightening as a probability because it suggests that these folks don't understand
that the policies followed before Mr. Trump played a major role in producing Mr. Trump and his
electoral victory. Therefore, going back to them strikes me as having not learned the lesson
these people claim they have learned.
But let me turn to the progressives that are
on the team. As best I can tell from my own knowledge, and I do know some of them, there
are three: Heather Boucher, Jared Bernstein, and the new Secretary of the Treasury, Janet
Yellen. It seems clear to me that Heather Boucher is the most progressive of those three, based
on the work she has done, particularly around inequality. Jared Bernstein, associated with
the Economic Policy Institute, is part of the progressive, sort of, Washington, D.C.,
establishment, and he has been a long time.
Janet Yellen — I'm a little mystified
why she's in that group. I can mention, on grounds of transparency, that she and I were
students at Yale University, getting our PhDs at about the same time. I had the same curriculum
she did; I had the same professors she did. I do know about her training because it was the
same as my own. I was involved, when I was a graduate student, in the efforts to form a new
economics association. It was called the Union of Radical Political Economists. A whole group of
us were active in starting that association. It is still in business, it produces its own journal,
it runs its own section of the American Economics Association. Janet Yellen, as a graduate student
and since, has had absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Because I would know, since I have
been involved with that all of my adult life.
It was revealed a few days ago that since her time
as head of the Federal Reserve a few years ago, she has been giving speeches. She has
earned, apparently, in the neighborhood of $7-8 million giving those speeches. And
they include, apparently, big, fat fees from the Goldman Sachs company — something
that got Hillary Clinton into some difficulty, you may recall, a few years ago. Not usually part
of the credentials of progressives, for all the reasons you don't need me to remind you about.
So these three progressives are what you have. What they will do on the Council of Economic
Advisers, or as the Secretary of the Treasury, is an open question. Are they sensitive to
issues of inequality? Absolutely. They say so, and I take them at their word. But these
are also people who have never gone outside the consensus of Washington, D.C. And
what does that mean? It means they do not question capitalism — ever. They do not raise the issue
that maybe some of the problems of inequality have to do with the way capitalist enterprises are
organized. You know, with a tiny group of people at the top — the major shareholders, the board of
directors, the CEO — making all the key decisions, and resulting in (what a big surprise) giving the
bulk of the money to themselves, in dividends, in huge salaries for the top executives. Isn't
that a part of the problem? Well, you won't hear that from them. At least you never have before.
Could they change? Absolutely. Could they become open to it? For sure. After all, Roosevelt
became open, and he was a middle-of-the-road fellow just like them back in the ‘30s.
But there was this difference in the 1930s: a massive movement from below. The CIO, the
biggest unionization drive in American history, two socialist parties, and a communist party — all
working together. That's what made the New Deal. That's what made a politician, middle
of the road like Franklin Roosevelt, become a champion of real progressivism.
It could happen again, but that will have to depend on whether a movement from
below develops. It will not depend on these folks in the Biden economic team.
My next update is a kind of respect I want to pay to an enormously important
development in Argentina in recent weeks. The Argentine Senate was under enormous pressure
from a massive movement of the Argentinian people, led by the women of Argentina, who have been
fighting this fight for a good six or seven years — and probably longer, but six or seven
years in the public eye. The women assembled a powerful coalition,including many labor unions
and many radical social movements. They put them all together, and what did they achieve? They
defeated the government on a central issue: the right to an abortion if a woman wishes to
choose that way of dealing with her own body.
The government opposed them. The Roman Catholic
Church — the dominant religious institution in that country — opposed them. They defeated
the government. And they defeated the church, which went to extraordinary lengths, partly
because the current pope comes from Argentina, as some of you may know. And the
church went all out, and it lost.
And what's the significance? A mass mobilization
from below — the very kind of mobilization I mentioned a few moments ago as making it
possible that there might be a progressive Biden administration, because otherwise there won't be
and there isn't one now — that kind of a movement that I talked about hypothetically in the United
States is already a reality in Argentina. They got the senate, to the surprise of many, to vote
in favor. All women in Argentina will now be able legally to acquire an abortion up
until the 14th week of a pregnancy.
Before this action in Argentina — one of
the largest and most important economies in all of Latin America — only very small parts
of Latin America had legalized abortion: Cuba, of course; Uruguay; Guyana; and
some parts of Mexico — that's it. All the other main parts of Latin America
were steadfastly in the control of governments and the Roman Catholic Church on the
question of abortion. Already there are signs that in both Chile and Brazil — large Latin
American countries like Argentina — the women's movements there have taken an enormous inspiration
to take the same steps in their countries. Things are changing south of the border, and they
will not be limited to questions of abortion. They will go far beyond that, to the rest of the
social issues burning in that part of the world.
My next update for today has to do with another
question many of you have written to us about. This is the disconnect that now exists between
what is going on in the stock market — the place where the richest of our rich people hold their
wealth — and the economic realities facing the rest of us. It is a stark difference, as
many of you know simply from looking around the communities where you live, where you work, and
where you shop. An analyst at Nomura Securities in New York recently put his finger on it. He
says the stock market in New York City is, quote, “foaming at the mouth.” Well, another
way of saying that is it's crazy.
But you know, in its craziness it reflects a
truth. And that truth is the growing distance of the one to five percent of people rich enough
to care about what's going on in the stock market — and that's all it is. The majority of
people have no stocks. The minority who have them don't have enough to make much of a difference
in their life. (The 11 shares you inherited when Grandma passed is not making you a player in the
stock market.) The core of people, very small, who control the bulk of the shares — 10
percent of shareholders own 80 percent of the shares — they're the ones doing real well.
And let's give credit where credit is due. The government of this country — which is in service
of this one to five percent at the top — the government has decided to deal with the depression
we're in economically, with the COVID-19 collapse on top of it, by pumping money into the economy to
beat the band. The Federal Reserve has pumped in many trillions of dollars. The Treasury has been
spending money it doesn't have, by borrowing, and that ultimately comes from the Federal Reserve as
well. So we have all this money being created.
Because the mass of people are poor in America
now, and can't borrow, that money doesn't go in to produce more goods and services, and hire people
to produce them, because the people of America can't buy this stuff. Millions are unemployed, and
everybody else is scared to death. So where does the money go if it doesn't go into producing goods
and services since the demand isn't there? It goes into the stock market, where it bids up the
price of stocks — which is what the rich people are happy about because it makes them richer
still. That's why the billionaires in America amassed another $2 trillion while the rest of
us were struggling with the COVID-19 disaster.
It is a society ripped apart by its inequality.
That's a story that never ends well, when a society makes the rich richer while impoverishing
the mass of people. We're on that road, and Mr. Biden better get us off, or else
we will have another Trump before long. Look, the crises of this society are
multiplying. It's a period of decline, unless mass action turns it around.
We've come to the end of the first part of today's show. Before we move on,
I want to remind you about our new book, The Sickness Is the System: When Capitalism
Fails to Save Us From Pandemics or Itself. Go to democracyatwork.info/books to learn more or
to get your copy. I want also to thank our Patreon community for their invaluable support. And if you
haven't already, go to patreon.com/economicupdate to learn more about how you can get involved.
And now it is my pleasure to urge you not only to stay with us because we'll be right back,
but to let you know that our guest today, who really needs no introduction, is Noam Chomsky,
talking about where we are and where we're going. Stay with us; we'll be right back.
WOLFF: Welcome back, friends, to the second half
of today's Economic Update. I am really and genuinely honored and pleased to be able to
welcome to our microphones and our cameras Professor Noam Chomsky. Noam Chomsky
is Institute Professor Emeritus in the Department of Linguistics and Philosophy at
the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT. He is also the Laureate Professor of Linguistics
in the Program in Environment and Social Justice at the University of Arizona. His work is widely
credited with having revolutionized the field of modern linguistics. He is also the author
of numerous best-selling political works, which have been translated into literally
scores of languages around the world. He has a new book, released in January of 2021, called
Consequences of Capitalism. Thank you very much, Noam Chomsky, for joining us.
CHOMSKY: Glad to be with you.
WOLFF: Good. Let me start off with the question
I know many of our viewers and listeners have: What difference do you think the new Biden
administration will make in the basics of American domestic and foreign policy?
With a particular addition: Do you think that the Trump years, now ended, will be seen as
a kind of temporary aberration, an interruption, or is it more logically a part of an
evolving American position in the world?
CHOMSKY: As far as Biden is concerned, I think
the answer to the question will depend on the level of popular activism that works to press
him towards a more, somewhat more, progressive, social-democratic stand. If he's left, if
there isn't that pressure, he'll revert to the Clintonite, DNC, Wall Street-oriented, neoliberal
programs of the past 40 years. But with pressure, he could change. And it's critical, especially
on truly existential issues, like global warming, for example. We can't delay on doing something
about that or everything else is essentially moot. He could be pressed, but it'll have
to be pressed. It won't happen by itself.
As far as Trump is concerned, I don't think
he's going away. He won't be sitting in the White House, but he'll be basically, I presume,
trying to run kind of an alternative government, in combination with Mitch McConnell, the
real evil genius of the Trump administration, whose goal very likely will be to try to make
the country ungovernable, the way McConnell openly and proudly tried to do with Obama — make
sure that the serious problems can't be dealt with properly. There'll be chaos, and they can
blame it on the government, probably try to roar back into power. Trump himself has the voting
base of the Republican Party in his pocket. A large majority of Republican voters say he's their
savior, he's the future of the Republican Party.
I don't think this is going to disappear.
It has deep roots, many deep roots. It's not unique to the United States. The same,
similar kinds of anger, resentment, contempt for institutions are taking place
in every country where the neoliberal assault of the past 40 years has operated, severely
damaging the general population, causing enormous inequality, undermining democracy, leaving
people angry and frustrated. It's taken many forms. In the United States it’s combined with
underlying — Trump was a genius at tapping the poisonous undercurrents of American society and
culture, like white supremacy, crucially. He was able to bring them to the surface. They're not
going away either. It's the form in which the resentment and anger — which are quite justified
— about what's happened for the past 40 years, the form in which it's being expressed.
And we shouldn't overlook — well again, I was just going to say we shouldn't overlook
how serious this is. You've probably talked on the program about the Rand Corporation
study that came out a couple of weeks ago where they tried to estimate the transfer of
wealth from the working class and the middle class — in their terms, the lower 90 percent of
income level — transfer of wealth from them to the very top of the wealth ladder. That means
the top fraction of one percent. But their estimate is about $47 trillion. Not small
change. And that's a serious underestimate; doesn't take into account everything that
happened after Reagan opened the spigot: tax havens, destruction of unions, and so on.
WOLFF: Let me continue this line with you for
a moment, if I could. This kind of extreme inequality, which has been building, as
you say, for 40 years or longer and is now almost accelerating, even though it has been
going on for so long — that's a kind of story in human history that doesn't end real
well. Do you think that the growing anger, bitterness, rage, envy, whatever you want to call
it, will continue to be useful to the right wing more than it has been to the left in developing?
CHOMSKY: Well, I'm old enough to remember an earlier case of this, the
early 1930s, my childhood, when something similar was happening. The
system had broken down — very severe depression, much worse than now — and there were essentially
two ways out. One way out was fascism, which, we should remember, reached its hideous
peak in the most advanced country in the world, the country which was the peak of Western
civilization in the sciences, the arts, regarded as the model of democracy: Germany. That became
the depths of human history within a few years.
The other possible way out was social democracy,
which happened in the United States under the New Deal, under tremendous popular activism
and pressure. CIO organizing, militant labor actions, political activity, swung the
balance. And it's a very delicate balance. So as far as your question is concerned, we're
not in 1929, but there are some similarities, and it could go either way.
WOLFF: Any chance, in your view, of the Democratic and/or Republican parties
being the place where any of this kind of left-wing alternative emerges (and I'm not asking
you to predict), or does it need an independent, a third, a different kind of political party or
formation to get it done? How do you see that question that is on so many people's minds now?
CHOMSKY: Well, as you know, of course, to form a viable third party under the highly regressive US
political system is extremely difficult. It's not out of the question. It should be attempted.
Tony Mazzocchi’s efforts at a labor party — great labor organizer and environmentalist, Tony
Mazzocchi, back in the ‘90s — might have gotten somewhere. It could be revived now. It's
going to require a revival of the labor movement. That's going to be crucial for it.
The other possibility is to try to move the Democratic Party a little towards
the social-democratic side. What's called the left here is a strange notion. So Bernie Sanders is
called a radical. His views are too extreme to be tolerated in the United States. What are his main
views? Universal health care — can you think of a country in the world that doesn't have it?
WOLFF: Right.
CHOMSKY: Mexico . . .
WOLFF: . . . Canada . . .
CHOMSKY: . . . Europe — everybody
has it. Free higher education: Mexico, Germany, Finland — almost everywhere.
Those are considered too radical for Americans. One of the chief correspondents of the
London Financial Times, Rana Foroohar, associate editor, very good journalist,
commented sort of semi-jokingly that if Bernie Sanders was in Germany, he could
be running on the Christian Democrat ticket, the right-wing party. That's what's called way
too far to the left in the United States. So yes, a move towards moderate social democracy, a
return to something of the New Deal style, would be a major step forward. But it's not
left. It's a step towards moderate sanity. And that can be achieved, I think.
WOLFF: In the interest of the waning minutes that we have, I wanted to ask you a question
about political strategy, theory, philosophy, since I know you have been concerned
with that most of your life. The relationships between Marxism and anarchism,
as impulses, as movements, as traditions, let's call them, have been on again, off again, allies,
enemies, and everything in between. Do you see either of those traditions, or both of them, as
playing an important role, now and in the future, in the situations you've just described?
CHOMSKY: The traditions yes, but the words, probably not. The United States is a very unusual
country. We can't ignore the fact. It's a shame, should be overcome, but it's a fact.
I don't know of any other country, except extreme right-wing dictatorships, where
a person can't identify himself as a socialist. The term “socialism” in other countries is
kind of like saying “I'm a Democrat” here. If you're a communist, you can run for a political
office. Maybe people won’t like it, but in the United States these are terms of opprobrium. We
have such a well functioning propaganda system that ideas that are normal in comparable countries
are considered utterly beyond the pale here. So terminology is — you have to be careful with it.
But the ideas, yes. I think most of the population, judging by attitude studies,
pretty much supports these attitudes and views. Now, you maybe have to approach
them with different terminology, but yes, you can. Take the common thread of
left Marxist and anarchist thinking, that working people should control the work environment
and the enterprises in which they work. That's an old American view, so common that it was the
slogan of the Republican Party under Abraham Lincoln. It was the main driving force for the
most effective radical movements in American history, the Knights of Labor, the populist
movement of the late 19th century. I don't think that's very far below the surface, and I
think that can be recovered. And that is the lead driving element in the left
Marxist, anarchist tradition.
WOLFF: Noam Chomsky, I wish we had much more time.
I am very grateful for the time you have given us. I know I speak for my audience, both the listeners
and the viewers. Yours is a lifetime of commitment to something that a whole new generation is
learning they want to commit to. And I want, on their behalf and for myself, to thank you for all
that you have done, including being with us today.
He’s getting so old it’s stressing me out
This is surprising regarding Chomsky's reluctance towards marxism.
One America News headline: Chomsky Proclaims Trump a Genius!
Chomsky and Wolff together? Is this a crossover episode?
This is a power couple if i've seen one
He actually looks like karl marx
we needed this