Early Christian Demonology

hey guys welcome to Wonderful World of Runner radio today in our program we're talking about the early church and demonization pretty nice you know anti-nician post Nicene all the Nicene demons we're gonna be talking about them today it's gonna be exciting program The Remnant radio a show where we tackle history Theology and the gifts of the Spirit my name is Joshua Lewis I'm the pastor of Kings fellowship and in Ada Oklahoma together with my friends Michael Miller at Reclamation Church Denver and Michael Roundtree at Bridgeway Church OKC who set aside time every week to discuss the gifts of the Spirit things like how should we pray for the sick and how do we interpret tons and should we believe all the prophetic words for the new year if you're looking for a charismatic podcast with practitioners who are actually doing the stuff this is the show for you guys we got our exciting program for you today we're going to be discussing demonization before we discuss demonization are you like mocking email off screen so I can talk with and think clearly uh today we were talking about demonization before we dive into it I want to remind you that the remnant conference is just like seven nope eight days away seven days away depending on how you're counting uh uh uh Thursday a very next week which is about 14th through the 16th we're going to be discussing the gift of Prophecy how to hear God uh if that is a conference it seems like that's something you're interested in you need to check out the link in the description we've got the remnant conference I bet there's a I think right now as of right now we only have 100 seats left so if you want to register for that conference I would encourage you to do so soon because slots are going quick without further Ado let me introduce to my buddies Michael how you doing over there in Oklahoma I'm doing good man excited to talk about the Devils again feels like I've been doing a lot of devil episodes lately we actually talk about other things too we like talking about the Trinity we like talking about atonement and all that kind of stuff but we've been on the Devils lately so uh anyway but this one's exciting we're talking specifically on church history we'll also respond to some of you critics out there that don't like what we said last time how dare you so I'm excited about that Miller how about you how are you doing over there in the basement well while we're on the topic of devils I just got back from Louisiana with my family did a conference wow people from presbyterian and Baptist transition yes yes uh on healing and deliverance and one of my favorite stories was one guy who happened to be on the board for this ministry that put this conference on said dude I just cast two demons out of a guy like why haven't I heard about this before that's pretty awesome first time for him to ever see anything like that on the weekend he learned about it and he was the one that got to do it and and you got rid of two demons uh from yourself in the process that's really cool man yes he delivered me thank the Lord oh hey Ben Bogart he's in the chat he was there Fantastic look at that there you go we've got we've got a good program you know Michael you said some of the uh critics and Skeptics um uh it was funny someone I think it was called charismatic cheetah it's like a Facebook page or Facebook group said hey everyone radio is great and when we started getting a bunch of people commenting on their page going like I don't know about this Remnant guys anyway I started trolling our own page uh if you're out there and you want to go find some funny stuff like I was like man I wish these Heretics would read a book uh anyway I had a lot of fun most of them didn't realize it was me a few people were like uh oh like it was pretty funny I enjoyed it uh I don't take myself that seriously so we get to pick fun of it no Roundtree last week you said this you know there's some people that are kind of maybe frustrated uh some who either misunderstood or maybe intentionally misrepresented uh can you maybe just weigh in before we talk about church fathers you know we're Protestant on this show so if you're new to the channel That means that we think the scripture has Authority and we're not just appealing to church history as if you know these Church fathers are giving us everything we need for life and faithfulness and practice unto God what we're saying is we believe that the Bible actually gives us sufficient information that shows that Christians can be demonized and in light of what the scriptures say it appears that the vast majority of early church history and basically all of church history leading up in two enlightenment-like periods uh seem to indicate this and we're kind of walking through the historical record to make that case so Michael could you maybe and we've done this a bazillion times on the show we've got tons of videos and playlists talking about demonology and the biblical case for this but maybe I just toss it over to you the top of this program to just say hey can you make a Biblical case since we're all Protestants um for why we believe that there can be demonization of Christians uh in the New Testament and in the New Covenant for those of us who can be in some way up oppressed or demonized and where a lot of the nomenclature and misconfusion and all that good stuff comes in yeah uh sure so yeah let's jump into a little bit of the scripture there because this is really about church history that's we're going to spend the bulk of our time but we want to we want to touch on the scripture for the reasons Josh said uh I mean touch on we'll we'll be talking scripture all throughout but we want to give first a Biblical defense for uh can a Christian be demonized and and first I'll put it on to the other side that says that a Christian can't be demonized where's your chapter and verse you actually don't have one what you have is a theological argument not an exegetical argument in other words you've made deductions what's your deduction your deduction is well since we uh since we have the spirit of God we also can't have a demon at the same time because the spirit would naturally kick out the demon he can't have two in one place and uh and what I would say to that first of all it's a non-sequitur that actually doesn't follow Romans 7 says the Apostle Paul says I know that nothing good in in me dwells that is in my sinful nature so Paul is speaking of indwelling sin well if the Holy Spirit can dwell in me Romans 89 he lives inside of every believer and sin can dwell in me then surely that can actually happen and of course we have a model for this in the Old Testament where the Temple of the Lord often housed idols and there was which according to Deuteronomy 32 as well as First Corinthians 10 was demon worship okay so the house of the Lord actually housed demons okay so uh could it be possible that the house of the Lord my body a temple could also house demons if I commit idolatry for instance uh and it's at least reasonable what I'm what I'm making the point here is that the uh that the argument that demons cannot inhabit Christians is based on a non-sequitur it is a theological conclusion it is not exegetical it is not drawn from the text it is drawn from your personal opinion that the spirit can't inhabit or the same place that a demon inhabits but the spirit can and I I don't think that that actually follows I don't think it follows and so now to kind of push to the other side what sort of exegetical uh point would I make about this uh a few and uh I think one Luke Chapter 13 a woman who um during Jesus's Ministry is uh has a spirit of disability sometimes the way the scripture will talk about it will be that that person has a demon she has a spirit of disability she is demonized Jesus refers to her as a daughter of Abraham and somebody might want to say well that means that biologically she's Jewish but the way Luke uses this phrase he'll use it uh similar in Luke 19 talking about Zacchaeus where he says today's salvation has come to this house why because the he too is a son of Abraham in other words a True Believer so a True Believer in the Lord Jesus Christ has a spirit of disability Luke 13 it's an exegetical argument not just a theological one I'll make one more and then I'll let Miller uh follow up on First Corinthians 10. I know you're you're itching for that one Miller but I'll go to Ephesians chapter four do not let the sun go down on your anger and do not give the devil a foothold or a place or an an opportunity the literal Greek word there is place it's literally a geographical location don't give the devil a geographical location in you now it could be as the NIV uh at least 1984 in IV I can't remember about the updated one translates it opportunity and it can mean it's like either a metaphorical place or a literal place and so the we have to make a decision uh there but but the point is when you when you hold on to a grudge when you hold on to unforgiveness when you let the sun go down on your anger you give the devil a foothold he's speaking to Christians you give them a foothold an opportunity a place but here's what's interesting about that word place first of all and the rest of Ephesians uh the the way that the book of Ephesians will talk it'll be about being filled to the measure of the fullness of God it will use spatial uh spatial language to speak of the Holy Spirit and of Jesus inhabiting us more completely so it would make sense that as the as Jesus is inhabiting us more completely that he is uprooting the devil uh in his place in our lives in other words the word is used this sort of language is used geographically spatially throughout Ephesians so I think it actually makes more sense exegetically to take it as a literal geographical place that the devil can have a place in you when you hold on to a grudge and of course they have lots of anecdotal experience uh just personal experience of people uh not forgiving people and getting demons as a result um and so one more thing on that word uh the Greek word topos for place it also appears in Matthew 12 when Jesus says that as Spirit whenever it is cast out goes throughout waterless topos waterless places seeking uh it's it's seeking kind of wandering and comes back to the place that it originally was so Jesus actually uses it geographically to speak of Davids so I think a strong exegetical case is it airtight I wouldn't call it airtight but I would say strong exegetical case exists for it and almost completely absent exegetical case for the opposite side Miller do you want to jump on First Corinthians 10. you're muted so sorry I think I blew my nose and forgot to unmute uh I think the the strongest case we have exegetically from the New Testament is First Corinthians 10 which is written to Believers just to be very clear and so it has to do with avoiding Feast done uh where food is sacrificed to Idols he's telling the Christian Church made up largely of Gentiles and Corinth not to participate in these things and here's what he says in verse 20. no I mean that with the Pagan sacrifice is to demons and not to God and I do not want you to be partakers of demons what's interesting here is the word being used here is the same word we get for Fellowship which is a bit ironic considering the passage that uh the the quote that we had from Chuck Smith from Calvary Chapel last week was him saying hey Christians have no fellowship with demons and it's not possible but here is Paul quite literally saying it's possible he's saying don't do it because it is possible but that you shouldn't do it he goes on to say you cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons you cannot take part in the table of Lord and the table of demons or are we trying to provoke the Lord to jealousy are we really stronger than he is so there's there's a lot of like uh statements in here and the applied answer is you shouldn't be doing these things which is why he's saying you can't do this it doesn't mean that it's not possible it means you shouldn't um yeah so fellowship with demons partakers of demons the idea is that you're ingesting food dedicated and given over two demons and therefore will become demonized um and yes I think Michael's right there is no exegetical argument for a Christian not being able to be demonized but there are plenty of extra General arguments to be made in the other direction yeah I think that you can also potentially and again this is maybe not the most Rock Solid of arguments but um the account in second Corinthians chapter 12 where Paul has a messenger from Satan sent to Buffet him some kind of messenger some kind of Minister if you will of the devil that's come to afflict the Apostle Paul and I think a lot of what we've discussed in the past we haven't touched on in this episode is the conversation of Oppression possession language lots of Christians will accept the idea that the devil can oppress you that the devil can you know affect your mind that the devil can you know afflict you with thoughts you know affect your dreams those kinds of things I've heard many Christians deny that the devil can possess you but can oppress you however there's no Greek word for possession oppression in Greek there's just one word uh demonizama which I have a hard time pronouncing which has to do with demonic activity when you turn a noun into a verb when you have a noun theology you and you turn it into a verb you theologize so any kind of demonic activity is demonization so when we talk about Christians having a demon or some Christians using the language demon possess which is one we don't typically care for because it does sound like possession like I own this human person I'm a demon and I own this person we don't like that language we would much prefer demonization can a Christian have demonization so my Assemblies of God friend who said hey you know you can be oppressed but not possessed I would just say I don't like your vernacular I think we actually might agree on the same thing because when you're saying that a demon can affect your mind that can affect your will it can affect the way that you sleep it could it can hurt and torment you and your family in some way if you're saying there's some kind of Oppression I just agree with you but I don't think that that changes the way the Bible talks about oppressor oppression or possession those categories aren't in scripture it's any kind of demonic activity so as we're going through these quotes and as we're talking about Deliverance we're talking in those terms demon activity uh and they're non-corporeal demons aren't spatial they're not like you know is it on you is it in you is it like no it's it's non-material they're not physical they're not taking up space so I think that a lot of this has to do with the uh the Western thought and the way that we conceptualize the spiritual world view I don't think those things necessarily are mutually exclusive uh do you guys want to start picking up some of these quotes yeah definitely I'll start with origin and just really quick and I want to say this because I know how the internet is none of us believe that a Christian can be demon possessed we don't like the term anyway we prefer demonization because it's the Bible's word but we also don't think no Christian can be owned by the devil because First Corinthians 6 we were bought with a price the precious blood of Jesus so uh that's one more reason why we don't like it it communicates the wrong thing and so we can actually agree Christians can't be demon demon-possessed we just would rather use a different word and ours is demonization because that's the Bibles okay uh here is origin origin very famous Church figure in the second to third Century uh so about 185 to 254 important Church leader uh from Alexandria and uh later in caesarea but here's what he says now this one's interesting because I'll just read it he says anyone who vanquishes a demon in himself for example the demon of lewdness puts it out of action the demon is cast into the abyss and cannot do any harm to anyone so origen believed in self-deliverance something was funny we would sometimes have this uh I mean I've I've seen this debate and occasionally maybe even had this debate at least conversations with people can a Christian cast demons out of themselves and I think it's a good question I I think you can I I think just like I can pray for healing for myself uh but it's also God loves to use the body of Christ and so uh it's you know I tends to be more effective when someone else is participating but according to origin you can do it you can Vanquish a demon in this case of lewdness you can put it out of action cast it into the abyss it'll never harm anyone again so apparently origen thought you could have a demon quote in you and cast it out of you interesting uh somebody want to read from the shepherd of Hermes sure uh okay so a little backdrop on The Shepherd of Hermits many people considered it scripture uh in the early second century it's when it was written so it says this so also the Devil comes to All God's servants to tempt them all those who are full in the faith resist him mightily and he leaves them alone because he finds no place again that same word topos is used that we have uh from what Michael mentioned in Ephesians 4 26 27 he says he has no place topos where he can gain entrance so then he comes to those who are partially empty and finding a place he enters them and then he does what he wants with them and they become enslaved to him the demon that took entrance so the subject yeah the subject here is God's servants the Devil comes to God's servants and there are two categories of God's servants according to the shepherd of hermas one those who have really strong faith and those who have not so strong of faith those who have really strong faith can't be demonized according to the shepherd but those who have weak faith can be demonized because the devil finds entrance and enslaves them guys this was what's so important about this is that lots of people consider this the Bible so the early church thought that you could be demonized and a book that was considered the word of God now we don't consider The Shepherd of hermas a word of God we've done episodes at least one episode we did with Dr Spiegel on this you can look out look it up learn everything you could ever want to know about the shepherd of hermas uh and so it just gives you insight into how early Christians thought our theological objections well you can't have the Holy Spirit and a demon we're not the theological objections of the early church the early church thought that that was completely possible does that mean the early church was right about everything absolutely not but it's a universal testimony let's keep reading can I back up real quick just before you read that quote Michael I just want to give context because we are picking up from a show that we did last week if you haven't watched that episode last week you know finish this video and then go back and watch that one we just quoted two Auntie Anderson fathers uh right so these these guys who came I say anti-nissian yeah anti-nissian fathers they came before nicaea but we also last week quoted tertullian uh hippolytus cyprian uh we talked about uh your Banis I can't pronounce his name very well but we have multiple Church fathers before nicaea that are affirming the exact same position that Christians can be oppressed now we're going to be transitioning to the anti-enessian guys who come after nicaea who can continue not into this position we're transitioning to no no I mean at the same time of Nicea these were people that were probably at the Council of nicaea and then post nician so we've got we've got a little space here between 350 to 500 A.D and so some of these people quite literally existed they were pastoring and ministering both just before and just after and during nicaea and then those who came after that so there's this is like 500 years of church history that we're covering here all the quotes that we had from last episode and this episode took place before nice yet now we're transitioning into that Nicene period right yeah and we did have a few more anti-nicine nice scene but we could keep going we had a couple from the apostolic Traditions uh one let's do that let's do that yes you want to jump in okay well yeah yeah we need to get the rest of those out okay uh the apostolic Traditions well-known work third Century uh This was um uh chapter 21 verse 9 it says and and I'll read 10 also uh when the presbyter so the church leader takes hold of each one of those who are to be baptized let him bid him renounce so tell the baptism uh bid him renounce saying I renounce thee Satan and all thy service and all thy work so throughout church history that's real common that baptism was associated with renouncing Satan and his angels sometimes at all his Pomp and so on we do it in our church yeah we do it in ours too uh but then verse verse 10 it says the church leader performing The Baptism also performed an exorcism the leader would anoint the person with oil and say okay uh and say this let all evil spirits depart from thee so that was a part from verse 10. so uh so the person doing the baptisms would so first of all the person being baptized would renounce Satan and then the person doing the baptism would anoint with oil and say to the person let all evil spirits depart from you so there literally casting Spirits out while the person is in the water and typically this would be on the tail end of like they got saved they go through a long period of Deliverance and so uh you you have for instance Dr Clint Arnold talks about this that like what did new Christian new Christian follow-up look like in the early church it looked like the thought of the Bible they taught them Christian ethics they baptized them and they did Deliverance Ministry those were the four things across hundreds of years of church history they delivered Christians who were about to be baptized and the Pinnacle of that moment was while they were being baptized actually uh was talking to Dustin Aguilar who is a friend friend of Remnant Pastor Wellspring Church uh my old church and uh and he told me a story about a Satanist who got saved in his church cast of demons out while he was getting baptized in his pool and uh it delivered it makes sense because baptism pledges our allegiance to God over the devil um so fascinating on that Michael Heiser talks about that in his book unseen realm uh but somebody want to keep reading this story from you see uh eusebius in the third to Fourth Century he's actually telling a story about what happened in the year 250. yeah sure I'll I'll do it so he cites the Roman Bishop to Cornelius and Cornelius is the one responsible for carrying out this uh exorcism he says uh that there were 52 exorcists serving in the church at this time uh Cornelius tells us that these exorcists ministered to a convert name novatus a future presbyter in the Roman Church after a spirit entered into him and stayed with him for considerable time causing him to be desperately ill this is eusebius I don't know if it's eusebius or eusebius none of us know how to pronounce these names but the implication is this person isn't just a uh a Believer this is a person who is actually going into the priesthood becoming a presbyter a leader in the church um and this is the person who was had a demon enter him and cause him to be desperately ill and all these accounts the order salute us if you will the this kind of order of Salvation is that these people are repentant they believe the gospel they're teaching them credo-like confessions they're training them up in the scriptures they're renouncing the devil they're fighting their sin there's fruit of Salvation that's beginning to manifest in their lives and then some Act of Deliverance takes place before they're immersed with water so again physical ailment Temptation those kinds of afflictions are being affected on Believers in the first century pre-baptism so you know for my my brothers who are students of church history and believe that Christians can't be demonized you have two accounts either the vast majority of church history was deluded into thinking that these were believers who are being demonized or you actually have to accept that these people were being delivered and there's something about the baptism that's actually saving them and regenerating them so like the lutherans are over there and the anglicans are might be really going yes and amen but my Baptist my Pentecostals you know my Presbyterians you're all hearing this going I don't know if the original I can get down with regenerative baptism what you have to do is you have to actually ignore the wide swath of Christian history that's saying these people are confessing they're believing they're being immersed in water and something about that after they believed and confessed and they've shown fruit of their faith in Jesus that's what causes you know the presbyter or the bishop or or the Deacon to lay hands on them immerse them in water get them baptized and it's after or during their baptism that there's some kind of moment of Deliverance taking place and I think that that's a that's a compelling thing for most of us because we have to acknowledge there was fruit of Salvation that was required before these people were going to baptize these individuals I think the only way that you can come to grips with that is that Christians are demonized unless you're going to ignore again we just quoted 300 years of church history uh I think that kind of puts you in a scary and dangerous place any thoughts on these quotes guys that I think we can keep reading I mean I'm I think we're all in total agreement and again we're not quoting church history because church history is our Authority above the scripture we're quoting church history because it informs us and there's been a long history of how we interpret the scripture and for hundreds of years it was understood that Christians can be demonized but now some people are flying in and saying you can't be demonized despite what church history has said and hey maybe church history was wrong all along and and you came along and you were right but we're saying I don't know I think church history well not as authoritative as scripture by any stretch uh it it should serve as a guardrail for our interpretations of scriptures we should think you know what if I have interpretations that are out of line with what all of church history has been I should rethink that uh so let's uh let's continue we're going to be moving along in uh into the force are you gonna become a pedo Baptist and we can talk about the church history on that but not today um get into it right here on the remnant so uh moving into the fourth Century this is uh Saint Cyril of Jerusalem who is Archbishop of Jerusalem first of all he gives instructions to new Believers so they're Believers and they're preparing for baptism and the instruction is this receive with earnestness the exorcisms whether you be treated upon or exercise the ACT is to you salvation okay so um clearly so these people are all they're already saved they're already they've already been Justified the word salvation can be used in a lot of broad senses we we should remember you know we uh we have been saved that is Justified we are being saved First Peter chapter one you are receiving the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls so that's and Protestant theology we call that sanctification and then we will be saved that is glorification justifies sanctify glorified uh and so uh and so when when he's talking about this act is to the Salvation yes we are being saved uh but it's already assumed these people are True Believers in the Lord Jesus because they were being they were catechumens they were being taught to uh they were taught the scriptures they had believed in Jesus Christ they had placed their faith in Jesus Christ they were preparing for baptism and in route to being prepared for baptism the the bishop is saying uh Cyril of Jerusalem is saying okay I know you're already a Believer but here's the deal you might have some demons still so just receive the exorcisms or gonna do do some uh kind of exorcists come around and cast the demons out just don't sweat it that's Michael's paraphrase but that's what he says there uh he also has instructions for exorcists the church where they were training and equipping Deliverance ministers and he says this receive uh receive though these and commit them to Memory and have and have thou power to lay upon the inner humans whether they be baptized or only catechumens so those might be some new words for you guys at least energy humans uh this was a word used to describe a Believer who still had a demon inside of him like they literally did they actually have a term for believers yeah so it's so common they've had a term for it catacumin was just for a Believer who was going through catechesis so he was being discipled a catechuman it was like you're you're just being taught the scriptures you're being taught the way of the Christian Life and an inner human with somebody okay you're a Believer you just got some more demons we gotta clean out so Cyril apparently believed in this and not just him but the whole broader church because they had a term to describe it uh any thoughts on that guys before we jump to the next one yeah uh something to note here well the next one is in reference to this one so Thomas Aquinas actually makes reference to this quotation and he uses the exact same kind of uh process in the same sort of terminology he's going to use the word catechumen and and enter juman I don't know if I'm pronouncing those words rightly either but here's what he has to say um so he's picking up the same tradition using the same terms and he says holy water is used against the assaults of demons from without but exorcisms are directed against assaults of demons which are from within hence those who are exercised are called innerjumans as it were laboring inwardly we may say that Justice Penance is given as a further remedy against sin because baptism is not repeated so holy water is given as a further remedy against the assault of demons because the baptism exorcisms are not given a second time so the reason that he's mentioning this is he's saying an inner human is a Believer who has a demon and this believer may already be baptized but we don't baptize them again so at least in the Medieval ages they thought that a Believer who had been baptized and yet still had an evil spirit living within them also known as an inner human uh they would use holy water to help them in the process of exorcism again I'm not advocating for the usage of holy water I'm not saying that the the church at this time was right in the usage of holy water the only point we're trying to make is that the belief system is consistent from the days that the New Testament was written and the spirit was poured out up until the Medieval ages that that universally and unilaterally there was no disagreement over this particular topic they all believed Christians could have demons it's only after the enlightenment that this became a problem and rationalism that it took over which is why we're also making the argument that the idea that a Christian cannot have a demon is not an exegetical argument it is a theological argument one in which we apply Reason To What We Believe yeah and that's yeah I think that would be important to add to that note is that a lot of these quotations that we're picking up and that we're continuing to use uh from again pre during and post and I see as we're walking through this a lot of this we've pulled from uh Timothy Camp uh uh Timothy camps is kind of an early he has gone through and found all the source material for these deliverants so we'd encourage you to go pick up that book Miller remind me the name of the book that you that you've been pulling a lot of these quotes from yeah sure it's called demon possession and the believer in the early church by Timothy J camps and I believe this was a doctoral dissertation but he he goes through all of these quotes and gives an evaluation of all of these quotes and gives an evaluation of the reliability of the authors of these quotes as well as their arguments so he he does a lot of work and all we're really doing is just listing the quotes and helping you interpret them and make sense of them but then trying to show just a vast amount of consistency we have from early church practice like it was universally agreed upon which should testify to something and so remember that some of the quotes that we're even given these are people that argued for the Trinity these are people that helped us create the Nicene Creed I mean these aren't just like no neighbors these are people that I think are Orthodox and and after the fact we may disagree with some of their practices and beliefs but by and large this wasn't a belief that was disagreed on so yeah and that's important to note too again we're mentioning these individuals not to say everything that they believe is accurate everything they believe is true you go watch James White debate the Trinity you go watch Michael Brown debate the Trinity you go watch any scholar of any sorts engaging with Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or Muslims who are they quoting they're quoting Church fathers why it's not because they have Authority or that James White agrees with everything Saint John of the Cross ever said because that would be ridiculous A lot of the things that some of these Church fathers said all of those Scholars I mentioned would strongly disagree with some of their held Christian beliefs it's to say that I interpret the scriptures this way and that is not unique look at all of these people throughout history who also held this exact same position these are tertiary pieces of evidence that help support and build up a case that there is historicity to these statements so we're not just coming along and saying hey you know uh we believe that you can be demonized oh you're playing you know you believe that because of your experience and go no I actually see it here in scripture and then go yeah but we're just inventing that passage that's completely new you know or you're inventing that interpretation of scripture that's completely new we've never practiced that we've never believed that's nowhere in our tradition and we're saying yes it is it's really rich within our Christian tradition what are we saying Miller well the vast majority of these quotes they're also going to quote the scriptures or make reference so just to be clear they're doing exactly what we've done they made their appeal to the scripture and they all agreed and we're making our appeal to the scriptures but we're also making our appeal to their appeal to the scriptures and so uh this idea that Christians cannot be demonized I'm just going to say this again it is a novelty it is not a historic belief and not a Biblical belief okay let's keep going pushing through uh this next one is from the apostolic Constitution it's a fourth Century work it's put together by a whole bunch of church fathers not one single guy's taking credit for this but it's been collected throughout history and been used often this is specifically about prayers are cited by a deacon on behalf of uh the individual the believer who is oppressed possessed however you want to use that language we don't like a possession language but oppress they have some kind of demonic activity and they're Believers it says and after they're going forth the katakumans let him the Deacon say pray ye that are uh that are possessed by unclean spirits let us all earnestly pray for them that uh the rod uh who is the lover of men may love Christ rebuke the impure spirit and rescue his supplement guys I I should not be reading early church fathers ever uh of any quotations of any kind I have a hard time reading English that was written in my Century um anyway so supplement for the tyranny of the enemy that he who rebuked the legion of demons and the devil the beginner of wickedness may now rebuke the apostate for ungodliness and rescue him out of his own handiwork from the influence and purify the purify Those whom he whom he with so much wisdom made again let us earnestly pray for them save them and arrive and raise them up O Lord in thy might bend your hand e again that word energy intergumans inner inner gumens uh and be blessed sorry that was such a debauchery of that quotation hahaha we got the point basically uh so what this is so it's it's a prayer for people who are uh in this language possess even though we don't like that language but possessed by unclean spirits and he's talking about Christians and then he's saying here are the things to pray for pray that the rod who is the lover of men may rebuke these impure Spirits so basically pray that God will act on their behalf purify them uh at of this influence just as he rebukes the Legion of demons and so on and so uh and so he's he's praying for these who are demonized who are Christians and so it's uh it's quite clear right there in the text I'm going to keep reading from the same work uh a prayer the prayer of Bishop that he would pray directly before a baptism uh for the inner demons uh so here's the prayer and uh it's gonna be in King James so sorry it says for the inner humans thou only begotten God the son of the great father rebuke these Wicked spirits and deliver the works of your hands for the power of the adverse spirit and let the deacons say some more instruction go out you inner demons and after them let him cry aloud you that are to be illuminated pray let all let all us the faithful earnestly pray for them that the Lord will vouch safe that being initiated into the death of Christ that they may rise with him become partakers of his kingdom and may be admitted to the communion of his Mysteries unite them to number them among those who are saved in his holy church save them and raise them up by your grace and being sealed to God through his Christ let them bow down their heads and receive the blessing from the bishop so most of the end of that did not relate to Deliverance but the first part did when he says when he says son of the great father rebuke these Wicked Spirits now interestingly it's it's a prayer so he's praying that Jesus would rebuke the evil spirits instead of just you know I think that we would say well it's ideal you just rebuke him yourself you just cast them out yourself because that's the model we have in the New Testament but either way either way what he's doing is he is asking Jesus to rebuke into kick out these evil spirits who are persecuting the inner humans soon to be baptized okay uh comments on that before we jump to the apostolic canons yeah I think what's again important is the order of Salvation here the baptism that's taking place is for believers they're doing this before this person is baptized I just want to remind everybody on that so when you see all this where it's talking about saving these statements are still being made for the person about to be baptized who they believe believes because again they weren't baptizing unbelievers they were baptizing believers which is uh in defense of Michael's position on uh baptism not being infant that's right we're all Credo Baptists on this show but yeah I just acknowledge that I'm on the wrong side of church history when it comes to creative baptism except for that quote that we just quoted all right let's keep reading I can't get distracted on this one all right so the apostolic candidates uh the apostolic canons uh who wants to read from that Miller Josh why don't you so you can instead of like uh actually so I can self-loathe again so yeah so okay I'll do it I'll do it on me yeah yeah we're not gonna stop making the dyslexic guy read I know it's not right especially but it's like Old English okay here you go Apostolic cannons it's an Eastern Orthodox church and the Oriental Church uh Orthodox Church they all adhere to the apostolic cannons so this is a again Universal Church picture here they all believe that this stuff was true what was written here so and it's written I guess as a a uh what they call it the pseudopoline letters so it's it's somebody writing as though it was in the perspective of Paul so he's gonna actually quote some of Paul's actual writings in this but he says I also Paul the least of the Apostles do make the following constitutions for you the Bishops and the presbyters and the deacons concerning the canaans so he's just listed off the various uh uh authoritarian positions in the church so those that come to the mystery of godliness let them be brought to the bishop or to the presenters by the deacons let them be examined as to the causes wherefore they come to the word of the Lord and let those that bring them exactly inquire about their character and give them their testimony again a testimony is something that a Believer has not an unbeliever let their manners and their life be inquired into and whether they be slaves or free men so the idea here is they're evaluating whether or not this person who's claimed they believe in Christ who's made a confession of Faith let's check out and see do their lives match up with the uh beliefs we have about a person whose heart has actually been regenerated but then it goes on it says but if anyone hath a demon let him indeed be taught piety but not received into communion before he be cleansed uh but there's an exception to this so don't uh if you find out that this person in the process of inquiring about the authenticity of their faith if you find out that this person be a have a demon he wants them to not get communion just yet so which would be the last thing they did after the baptism uh hold hold on to that until the person gets delivered from this demon but the idea is that this person is a Believer and then they can get communion but but here's the other thing and this is the interesting thing uh yet if death be near let him be received so a Believer who is about to die is discovered to have an evil spirit within them they would still give them communion even though this believer who is about to die has a demon so that's pretty fascinating um thoughts about this you guys or no thoughts at all no I mean it's just the same thing over and over again you know like how do you how do you keep giving commentary on a church father who agrees with another church father that we've quoted six times um I don't think there's another way around it like Christians can be oppressed by devils I mean so we've got I don't know how many more we want to read we've got Clementine the Clementine homilies we've got the recognition of Clement like three or four or five quotes from that uh we have uh we have another one called the two virgins day virginity virginity okay uh then we have uh ah there you go uh Saint picomius uh and so now we're kind of going back in town in time fourth Century Joshua with a stylight I mean these quotes just keep going guys uh and I had more and I was like this is already so many quotes I didn't put all of my quotes in there uh but guys maybe because we have like 15 minutes left in the show uh We've read a lot of quotes we could keep reading and guys I would just tell you it's just the same thing over and over again it is Christians getting demons cast out it is Bishops giving advice about casting demons out it is Bishops giving advice about what to pray over those who have demons it's it's all this kind of stuff so guys what do we what do we make of this and and what would you what would you want to say Michael Josh to those who believe Christians like they're holding on to this Christians can't be demonized after hearing all of all of this evidence from church history what would you say to that person oh that's tough okay so I think if you're if you're holding on to this position so tightly I would ask the question why because it's not because the scriptures teach that because there is no exegetical argument for a Christian not being able to have a demon there's not a single argument not exegetical there may be a theological one but that's still inferential and you're trying to use reason as opposed to explicit texts of scripture which we've already given well I would say very close to explicit text we've already given so the question I'm asking is why why are you holding on to that as a position oftentimes I found there's something that people are afraid of and that's what's really driving this conversation for them but the other thing about this and I'm going to say this to pastors and this is a harsher thing to say but if you believe that a Christian cannot have an evil spirit then I I think de facto you're going to find yourself neglecting the body by which you're actually called to minister to um and again I mentioned this because the number of people who have shown up at my church because I used to attend a Calvary Chapel church and they were Believers and they would come to their Pastor saying I have an evil spirit and the pastor would say well you couldn't because I baptized you you could not have an evil spirit I'm the one who who led you to Christ and which is awesome that these pastors are leading people to Christ I commend you on that part of it but where you failed was sending them away from your church to get help uh therapy talk therapy those kind of things which cannot deliver you from a demon the only thing that will work for someone who has a demon is Deliverance it means to be they need to be the the thing needs to be driven out of them and that is what we are to do as Believers in Christ and Ministers of the Gospel we are to cast out demons that's the work of Believers whether they be a believer that's being being delivered or an unbeliever yeah hey Josh let me ask you this so um we've talked we've said Miller and I have both said multiple times like the argument against Christian demonization is not exegetical it's theological so could you explain to our viewers because some people immediately understand that and a lot of people don't can you explain what we're trying to say when we use those terms yeah so uh exegetical just means that you're getting your ideas from the text of scripture a specific passage that says a specific thing um I'm trying to think of a category that would say we have a theological category that we read into scripture uh the only thing that's coming to mind is like Calvinism and arminianism you might not have a specific text of scripture that says a specific thing but by way of inference for example you might not have an explicit text of scripture that talks about limited atonement however if you have a theological system that talks about total depravity in conditional election irresistible Grace and perseverance of the Saints limited atonement seems to be a necessary and logical construction from those other theological points you might not have a specific text of scripture that says Jesus only died for a specific group of people that will one day go to heaven but you can make that kind of theological inference from those other points I think that might be a decent example of a theological inference whereas an explicit text of scripture would say something like Jesus died for the whole world that kind of thing so you can you can as a Christian build theological Frameworks and be wrong about things but you can also build theological Frameworks and be right about things however if your theological framework causes you to deny or ignore an explicit passage of scripture we're just asking you to reconsider your theological framework and with this specific example on demonization we would say that we would also encourage you to maybe like rethink the way that you're looking at the scriptures because not only are we saying this but it's also in line with the vast majority of church history so um there's not a specific exegetical text description there's not a text of scripture where you can pull the meaning out of the text and the text itself says a a Believer a Christian that's inhabited by the Holy Spirit cannot be afflicted by a demon we're actually saying that the scriptures say the opposite and you can pull that out of the text so there's not a single place that says Christians can't be oppressed by devils in fact we're told to war against the devil we're told to put on Armor to fight the devil we're told that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but we actually wrestle with principalities right Spiritual Beings in Heavenly places we're told over and over not to give a foothold to the devil it talks about how we should have strongholds in our minds but we tear down every thought that rises itself up against the knowledge of Jesus over and over again we're told to combat in war as Christians because somehow there is demonic activity that we're going to have to wrestle with so those would be our exegetical arguments yeah absolutely and I liked what Miller was saying a minute ago about just the Pastoral concern that uh you know as Shepherds to our congregation we we want to serve our people to the fullest extent possible but this week I'm preaching on Acts chapter 10 and and the passage talks about how Jesus went about doing good he was anointed by the Holy Spirit uh and power and he went about doing good and setting people free from the oppression of the devil that's a good thing Jesus went about setting people free from the oppression of the devil and so like if people are oppressed by the devil then I want to continue setting people free and there are lots of people there are lots of people in your churches that are oppressed by the devil don't we want a Ministry we can set people free so like for us this is not just about the theological side of the debate that's there uh but it's also about the Practical side of it that the three of us have seen over and over and over again during some seasons on a weekly basis for me I think it's right right there for Miller right now but always on a I mean for I don't say always but when I started believing in this kind of thing it it became a very very regular experience that we were casting demons out of people and I would say the vast majority of them for me have been Believers and I've seen people set free of porn addictions because I cast out a spirit of lust and I'm just thinking what if I just left that Spirit there that'd be bad that'd be like that'd be very unfortunate shepherding for me to just say well just try this and get the Covenant eyes on your computer do all like those are all good things I mean do those but like if there is a spiritual root of it let's get rid of that demon and the same goes for healing too and Healing Ministry that uh you know like we quote at the beginning Luke 13 a woman with a spirit of disability I mean we can give all the you could pray for healing all day long but like if it's a spiritual cause you need to cast the spirit out and so uh I would just say this is really for us at its core more applicational than it is just about a theological debate because all of us applicationally see it over and over and over again Christians oppressed by the devil that God wants to set free and we want to partner with him in that so that's I think what would be the big thing for me well guys I feel like I don't know maybe this is a first but we might have finished this episode a few minutes early I think we should maybe make the notes available uh would be helpful I imagine because we had a ton more quotes on here that we didn't use some of them even more explicit than the ones we've gone through already like testimonies that are told of Believers even priests who were demonized um so there's just there's a number of things that might be helpful for those who are still wanting proof of what we're saying on the consensus why don't you read the one about the priest oh gosh I honestly don't remember I'm gonna have to scour the notes to figure out which one we have we have another four pages of notes that we didn't even cover um yeah let's see if I can find one real quickly uh I just shared the Google Doc while you're looking for that quote if you're out there and you're like hey I want to like find all the source material for that we have quotations I just gave you the link but I also put it on screen so if you're on YouTube and you're like hey where do I find that link I put it in the live comment I'm gonna go ahead and drop it into the show description but you can also find it right there on screen if you take a screenshot you can click it and find that link okay so I've got it this was from Saint pachium Pacquiao pacomius I don't know how you pronounce that uh he ministered somewhere between and the dates are they're not really sure the there's some discrepancy here but between 340 to 349 or from 390 to 405. but here's what's set of them says they likewise brought to him from a monastery a brother who was being tried by demons so notice they use the word brother here and this this person's saying pachomias was a uh Monk and by the brother here I'm pretty sure it was another Monk um the word brother is often applied to monks who oversaw teams of monks somewhere in the realm of 12. so they actually had a title for this hierarchical position in monasteries so that's who he's talking with there was a monk or a brother who who probably had some Authority position over other monks who was brought to Saint pacoomius it says when our father pecomia spoke with him he answered well as one who is in in no way Tried by demons he said to the brothers who had led him to him I assure you this demon is hiding him in him and will not speak to me by this man's voice but I'm going to examine his whole body till I find out which of his members he is hiding in while he was examining his whole body came to the fingers of his hands instead of the brother here's the way the demon got in by I have found it in the fingers of his hands then when he came to his neck the place where the demon was the demon made a great outcry and the man gave a violent jerk and then four men were hardly able to hold him our father pacomius took hold of the place where the demon was and prayed to Christ for the brother that he might cure him while he was praying the demon came out of the man who was immediately restored thanks to our brother pecomius's prayers all the brothers who have seen what had happened gave glory to the Lord for this Mighty work which he shows forth through his Saints so the other interesting thing about this it is there's a there's a number of witnesses to this as well and so that's the other part that's that's helpful is here we have somebody who's a monk who's an overseer and some sense of the monastery Theory and ends up getting delivered and I know some of the language in there is tricky for people because it's you know 500 A.D or maybe just before that 480 sorry maybe just before or after um but a couple of things I wanted to also make mention of this is uh it mentioned some weird things like it being in the neck or it being in the fingers now anecdotally I've had experiences like this where I've cast demons out of people and they felt it lead through their fingers especially if the kind of sin involved the usage of their hands I've seen demons people get delivered where they felt something lift off of their arms uh especially when they've committed acts of violence I saw this at a church in North Denver with a bunch of people who had actually spent time in jail because of having committed acts of violence and had since then come to Christ but they still needed Deliverance I've also seen uh you know spirits come out of people's stomachs or out of their throats when when they it involved a particular sin of ingestion of some sort whether it be a drugs or other uh forms of sin so oftentimes I'll see corresponding body parts uh affected or sort of seem to manifest whatever that Spirit was based upon the type of sin that corresponds with that body part as well so this is this is not foreign and most Deliverance ministers would tell you the same thing that this has been anecdotally their experience that's been my experience for sure uh we interviewed Alexander Pagani a few weeks ago and he says the same same thing he talks about demons being cast out of the eyes the fingers the you know basically every body part and like you said it's uh there's like something that you do that causes it to enter through that place um and again I now I don't we don't have like an exegetical argument for that I mean there is a spirit that Spirit of disability does cause the woman's back to be bent double does that mean that the spirit was on her back we're not quite told but sometimes the scripture just doesn't go into that kind of detail I it's it's not like we're going around like looking for this what we find is you know I'll be casting a spirit out and someone will feel something move across their body and then whoa what was that like well where did it go from and two went from here went to over here and I'll usually put my hand in that place and command the spirit and uh and it's just by like following the spirit's leadership in that that uh that the person finds Victory but I would say guys everybody I've talked to that's cast demons out has has experiences like that Josh has that been yours too uh with like specific body parts yeah well I mean the account with my uh family member that I was going to remain discreet on that before I had permission to talk about which family member it is uh specifically found that there was stuff going on uh in their neck and I had a pastor friend without any knowledge Point specifically to a neck put his hand specifically on a neck and there was quite a bit of a Deliverance that took place so I mean uh again that's just an adult anecdotal evidence but uh yeah I I would say that that's been my experience okay yeah well cool guys well I think that is a wrap for today guys if you haven't signed up for that Remnant radio conference yet it's just a few days away September 14th through 16th it's uh the three of us are going to be uh are going to be talking and then we're gonna have a whole bunch of workshops all going to be focused on hearing God's voice with a little bit of tongues and interpretation thrown in there in one of the workshops with Michael Miller who uh is is obsessed with the gift of tongues as he is with casting demons out perhaps a jokey but uh anyway it's actually it's all going to be great so some friends of Remnant radio are going to be there helping with the workshops we'll also have some workshops of our own uh and if you stick around on Sunday morning so it's at my church Bridgeway Church and uh Sam storms is going to be bringing the word the next and so uh stick around today fantastic yeah yeah yeah can I I just wanna I wanna give you an idea of some of the shows that we're gonna be doing we're gonna be doing Revelation interpretation application that's gonna be one session going to do a session on how to test a prophetic word we'll do tongues and interpretation we'll have a session on being naturally Supernatural launching a prophetic Ministry for pastors we have a work a prophetic Workshop that we're doing uh on I think that's Friday dealing with manipulation seven signs of prophetic manipulation and what to do we have someone doing prophetic evangelism how to use revelatory gifts in evangelism we have someone leading how to lead Ministry time for pastors we've got someone doing tongues nuts Michael Miller doing tongues interpretation how to practice that gif we have a panel discussion amongst the guys trying to break down some of the stuff that that people have questions on after doing all of these sessions then we have thinking like Peter understanding the spirit of Prophecy in the New Testament period we have recovering and helping others recover from prophetic abuse and then we have winning over cessationist a course specifically for again pastors on how to win over people in their church that are holding cessationist views and then Roundtree is going to close us off with the voice of God in the book of Acts so I mean we're talking about a very rich tons of sessions that are going on all at the same time you can pick when you register which courses to go through once you register we're going to be trying to capture as much as possible from that course and then resending out to people who weren't able to make it for the whole thing so uh I would really advise you man if you haven't already registered because we've got a lot of really great content and then not only are we bringing in guest speakers to come in and handle some of these subjects with us we also have a bunch of prophetic teams that are coming out I think we've got over 10 people who are stage ready that are going to be on stage with us doing prophetic Ministry calling people out giving prophetic words but they're also going to be in every breakout session so we've gotten at least two people in every breakout session so there's gonna be a lot of prophetic Ministry not just teaching but demonstration of spiritual gifts and not just by the three of us so we're talking about people who we've discipled people live all over the nation people that we've had in close Ministry experience with they're gonna be bring coming in for that moment to kind of just Plagueis of the spirit so it's not just you know the three guys who do Remnant radio who are like one-trick ponies and we can do all the different stuff one trick pony is not what I was trying to say a jack of all trades who can do all this stuff we're actually showing the whole body of Christ can actually practice the spiritual gifts people that you don't know you've never heard of that are like super sharp in the prophetic so I highly highly recommend it I think it would be fantastic for you to register anything else I'm missing on that guys guys we'll see you next Monday and Wednesday from 4 to 5 p.m Central Standard Time and the rest of you will see at the conference peace

Channel: The Remnant Radio

Views: 16,354

Keywords: The Remnant Radio, Theology Podcast, Remnant, Remnant Radio, Word & Spirit, Charismatic Theology

Id: AShTmlFjgBk

Length: 61min 24sec (3684 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 06 2023