Earl Erskine Question and Answer

good evening ladies and gentlemen great to have you with us if you're out in the lobby if you want to come in and have a seat for an unusual Sunday night for us as we have a special guest and we're going to open with a word of Prayer and then we're going to kind of get going with our question and answer time this evening let's pray Heavenly Father we thank you for your kindness and your grace and your truth and Lord we just pray in Jesus name that your spirit would do a work here tonight that we would have ears to hear what your spirit is speaking to us just bless Earl and myself and Caleb as he moderates and the hearts of the people that have come to here may be answers to those questions that are on their minds and so Lord would just commit this time to you in Jesus name Amen well I want to just encourage you if you would make sure your cell phone is silenced and we don't have any children's ministry tonight and I know we have a few little ones so if they can hang with us great if not they can go out there in the lobby and once again you can watch and be a part of everything out there and not feel like you're missing out on anything for those who are with us tonight and we're not with a Saturday night and Sunday I'd like to introduce Earl Erskine who earl has been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints for 60 years served as he shared in many his lengthy resume and one of those good words was he's been a bishop for five years and then served in not only a mission and sealed in the temple and but served in his ward in various capacities and we are going to have a question/answer time and people filled out questions in the box and I think we had 47 questions and so we did our best to try to condense that list and go over that list so if you've got a specific question and we don't get to it we're sorry we probably won't be able to do all of them and I'm gonna hand it off to Caleb Browns gonna be our moderator he has the list he's gonna be asking questions and also we'll lay some things out from there as a possibility of you asking the question tonight kill well we're glad that you guys all came out I just wanted to give you guys kind of the idea of what we're doing in the format so again a couple announcements the first is that we have the family room available like my dad said and the lobby if you do have small children and you want to watch and enjoy and you need to take care of some of their needs we're gonna be going over the questions that were presented during the Saturday night service and the Sunday morning services first as we're asking these questions it's obvious that a lot more questions will probably come up as we're discussing different topics and maybe you want to ask more specifically about that topic or you know how when you hear one thing it triggers another thought and so there's a box in the back by the sound booth and on the dad or there's a table there's a box on the table on the table there's little question cards and so you can fill out your question drop them in there and we'll have someone going back and forth through the night bringing them up to me and as they come in at the end of the service we're going to have a time where we answer those questions that you guys have tonight again there are obviously too many questions and not enough time to answer them all tonight and so we did provide these discovering the difference cards through this big and they're also on that back table and there's four websites different resources that kind of cover different topics different approaches that have a lot of really wonderful information so if you had a question and it didn't get answered a lot there's a great chance that those questions will be answered on one of these websites you can pick those up in the back like I said and then the last thing is you'll notice if you when you pick one of these up the first resource is heart of the matter it's Sean McQuade ease TV show from Salt Lake City and his wife is here her name is Mary and she has his book that he just came out with just talking about the differences between biblical Christianity and the Mormon doctrine and so that's a side-by-side comparison of the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints and then the doctrines of traditional biblical Christianity and so you can pick that up if you want to in the back afterwards other great resources and so we're gonna start off with prayer and then question-and-answer time so let's bow our head lord thank you so much that we can get together tonight Lord I know there's a lot of diversity and our upbringings Lord in our ways of life and Lord different doctrinal things and as we're here we ask that you'd be with us help us to ask the questions with clarity help our hearts and minds to be open Lord you did everything in love even your death Lord when you died it was in love it wasn't in wrath or anger or judgment and so we're tonight help us just to be loving in that same way Lord as help us not to do anything in wrath help us not to do anything in anger or anything in judgment help us to follow your example where we pray that the truth would be presented and the differences made clear tonight in Jesus name Amen all right so we're gonna start off tonight with questions that you guys had for Earl specifically and the first question is this what made you decide to do this share your story start the ex-mormon files etc Wow first of all let me thank you all for coming tonight I said to several of you I just can't believe you Christians we Christians we just can't get enough it seems like and I just appreciate your being willing to come tonight and and to follow up kind of on the presentation that I made last night and today what made me decide to do this I of course I give all the credit to God I I have no agenda other than I I became convinced through as you've probably all heard in the presentations that that I questioned Joseph Smith and his belief about God originally and in doing that and then to ask why I share this and I kind of glibly said to latter-day saints or others that have asked me well why why does the church send out 50 thousand missionaries you have a message and I feel like I lived a lived the gospel faithfully for 65 years and and to come to find out that it has problems in it that that I wasn't aware of they've always been there I suppose I just didn't ever put them together anyway that that's kind of the answer to why I share that story the x-files the ex-mormon files was an invitation for me to interview people that had come out of the church and into Christianity much like I had and it's just a taped show taped show for a half-hour and I was invited to do it and it seemed like it gave people an opportunity who had gone through this process to be able to share and maybe to in some way help their family and friends who who are still LDS realize or understand their position second question are you concerned about what the LDS Church will say about you well there was a little interaction that my sister-in-law had with actually one of the 70s at a state conference not too long ago and he seemed to be well aware of several of us who have spoken out against the church I'm really not concerned about the church I've turned my life over to God and so I'm kind of I hope mentally and spiritually prepared for anything that comes along but no I'm not really concerned about about the church at this point so do you ever feel that you were doing the wrong thing and if so why I kind of mentioned in my talks how I am analytical and I had a two-step process the first one was to determine for myself that the history of the church had problems and that I could no longer trust that and once I did that I was open to whatever God had in store for me and I assumed that would be a life with with Jesus and then under trying to understand him and his word better so I've never felt like I did the wrong thing I've never looked back once I was convinced it took me several years to be convinced I did go to as I mentioned to y'all an institute director a historian I talked to them I opened all the church books I could I never read any anti-mormon stuff until after I basically left the church I was convinced that it that it wasn't true and the joy now has been that I found Jesus and that there is a whole different life out there for me so I was a two-step process but once I made the decision about the first step it was it was easy after that are you still living near your ward and do you minister to them you know it's it's interesting and I guess I'm maybe overly respectful of both LDS and everyone really I that's just my nature during those several years that I was questioning the church I never did bring up anything at a Sunday school or a priesthood meeting it would be very surprising I know you if you visited my ward members they would have had clue that I was having trouble which brings me maybe to another thing we'll cover later don't ever be afraid to talk to somebody because you never know where they're at in their journey and because an LDS person will not bring up suspect or questionable things and they won't talk to anyone else about it and so you never know where somebody's at in their journey it would have been interesting for someone to come to me somewhere during my process and say gee you know there's something about this Joseph Smith thing and polygamy or something and I would say yeah I know I learned about that too so to answer the question really I have not confronted any any member of my ward we've had a couple come and ask us about about our thing and I know I jokingly told you that some of them just thought we've missed our they missed our missionary farewell one Sunday and they wanted to know where we went on our mission because we just stopped going and so I I just I would like to I'm actually it's kind of coming more on my heart that I need to write a sensitive letter to all the ward members tell them how much I love them and that I feel closer to Christ than I ever have and just share that positive message if they would ever like to discuss things I'd be happy to talk to him what was the hardest part about leaving the LDS Church and what was the most fulfilling oh that's a good question probably the moment I told Carla my wife that that I didn't believe the church true and I actually verbalized what I was thinking and understanding that was a difficult part only because I wasn't sure of her reaction and we had been married in the temple so I wasn't sure if she was going to well okay and then the other thing that is that if she had told me that well I'm just not sure I haven't lived that part of it so I keep thinking if she had said okay role that's a forget it you're either out of here or you're back in the church well are still in the church now I just don't know what decision I would have made I would have trusted God I hope and he would have led me but I know I'm not sure I had that kind of faith at that point the most fulfilling part to be honest that the the part with the church so step one the process that was negative I didn't like it I wasn't happy with it I couldn't deny it but it was there the most fulfilling is to realize that the Bible is trustworthy that Jesus is my Savior he paid for all my sins with his shed blood on the cross and that I'll return to Him and that's just I have no doubt about that now and as a Mormon it was always I hope so I hope I've done enough I really wish I'm hoping we get there I'm trusting we did all the right things so it's it's the hope in Jesus now that's been the most fulfilling and to meet you wonderful Christian people that's that's been a joy do you ever experience spiritual attacks when witnessing to Mormons and do you have any pointers on how to counter spiritual attacks you know I guess I haven't been that confrontational with people and and people that know me have not really come and challenged me either I haven't had a good and I'm not really asking for one believe it or not and I did the 17 minutes I don't know how many of you know that but if you go to the h.o.t MTV heart of the matter TV you'll see a 17 minute presentation I made which of which is very similar to what you've seen here in my presentation last night and today so other than that and believe it or not I have not had anyone ever come and contradict or challenge any of the scriptures I used or the references in the Book of Mormon I think because they're just factual I'm not making drawing any conclusions they are just there The Book of Mormon got changed and it's undeniable and and so I really have not had anyone come even from the 17 minutes I have not any had any real challenge how do Mormons react when you tell them your story well again the only ones that I really have a reaction from her family and I still have two active children both returned missionaries both married returned missionaries we're praying for those people they haven't my reaction with from them has been kind of I do have one son that's asking questions and I think that's one of the dangerous things about a latter-day saint if they start asking questions if they're willing to even look or read the Bible as a child and that's not too much to ask if they read the Bible as a child I think God would touch their heart and they would read the scriptures totally differently than they ever have before I mentioned this a couple of couple of the sessions this last couple days the Carla and I would start reading John and we absolutely just sat there crying because we we were eating scriptures that I read so many times before and they meant something totally different than we had ever understood and we just looked at each other and in such joy it was it was neat are there any good books that you'd recommend that explain that explained the falsehoods of Mormonism well this A to Z that Shawn McCraney he actually went through I think it was mentioned he hosts a TV show in Salt Lake and he went through a jazzy throughout I think it was 2010 and when he went through that and then he compiled all that into a book and that's that's been a very good reference of course I the Bible is it's where I'd start other books that I'd recommend well there are some anti-mormon books the one that I'm sorry oh yes thank you dear there was an Institute Director grant Palmer who wrote a book called the origins of Mormon history and that's an excellent book it talks about some of these same issues I'd go on the website there are a number of books I did read one of the more interesting books was BH Roberts book about the the the Book of Mormon evidences for the Book of Mormon that was a very good read he's he was a seventy and was never did leave the church or anything but he had very serious questions about the Book of Mormon and he presented those to the First Presidency back in the early 1900s explain the term the seventy for those who are there the church has the First Presidency and then the Apostles the Council of the twelve and right underneath those are a group of people usually seventy and I think there's might be five chorim's of the seventy right now so there's 70 70 70 70 but those are the traveling elders so to speak they go around and our our area representatives and kind of represent the church in different portions of the world and he was one of those even though and he was one of those and wrote this book he was actually asked the question if I could take two second and it may come up later will refer back to it but he was actually asked a question by the / given these five questions by the church about metal in the in the Book of Mormon the Linguistics archaeology couple of other things animals and so on and he came to some very interesting conclusions about about there not being any of that kind of support for the Book of Mormon these next set of questions or questions regarding what we've titled Mormon culture the first one is how important is excommunication how does one get oneself taken off the LDS records how important is excommunication well maybe that's an interesting way to say it a lot of inactive Mormons go through their life not believing in the church maybe or at least not following that the commandments and they just are inactive and they never have their they never really address their membership whether they're on the rolls or not we felt like it was important for us to go through the process I wanted to and I think Carla did as well so that we could present or at least present to our court our findings well as if you've come to my sessions you realize that I didn't get that opportunity I did write those gentlemen a letter three-page letter that kind of said you you wonder why we were so quiet during our Court something that was of soul such importance in our life for a church that we had been with and paid money to and had for 60 plus years and you wondered why we were so quiet and I did reference the fact that the state president told us to be quiet but I did sherab just briefly some of my findings with them and how we felt and but we felt like it was important for us to go through the excommunication process whether that's important or not it really doesn't matter your membership in the church if you the only thing that matters is the numbers and we've actually been told that if you have your name removed from the church that the church simply takes you out of that unit they call it the unit that you're in and put you in a unknown address category so you're still part of the 14 million so whether that happens with an excommunicated person I'm not sure I'm sure that they still have my record and it would just have the word excommunication or excommunicated across it but whether that's part of the 14 million or I'm not sure and we have people in our church that you know there are some who feel really strongly and they want to make a statement sometimes they wanna share and then others that have become Christians born-again Christians and they said you know I just don't care I don't it's not worth my time it's not worth my effort it's not worth my energy because it just doesn't matter to me and so those are kind of the two ends of the spectrum that you know you can totally go for it or or you know not worry about it no the next question how does one get out of a temple marriage if divorced from a former LDS person you know those processes change over time if a person has divorced their their spouse it used to be I think that the wife had to get permission written permission from her former husband to have her endowment or not endowment but the temple ceiling released so that she could go marry someone else in the temple that would be someone who was in married in the temple then divorced and wanted to marry someone else in the temple they had to get permission from the first husband I'm not sure now that the church requires the woman to get permission I think the husband was always able to just get permission to have their temple marriage annulled or released we suggest you get saved to not go back people are taught to fast and pray about Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon why do some receive such a strong revelation well just from a biblical perspective there is we are in a real spiritual warfare there's an invisible world and there's the Lord there's the Father the Son the Holy Spirit there are a host of two-thirds of the angels that are with him the Lord and then the devil and he took a third of the Angels fallen spirits and so Ephesians chapter 6 says we're in a spiritual war and it also tells us and in Timothy that there's doctrines of demons or demons influence and and affect people just as well as the Lord and the Holy Spirit draw someone to a saving grace the enemy the Devils desire with his cohort the principalities and powers is to deceive and to and to pull away if you think about something that looks so close to Christianity with Saint the same terminology but a different dictionary that I mean we used the same terms Christian traditional biblical Christianity and it's important to put it in that phraseology because for the last 2,000 years since Christ came died on the cross was buried rose from the dead and the Apostles began to minister we've had the truth in the foundation of the gospel that was delivered once and for all according to Jude what he told us that the gospel the faith that was delivered once and for all so everything that came after that for the last two thousand years of deception takes on many forms and shapes and deceptions and people are moved strongly and it just doesn't mean that it's of the Lord if you have a burning in your bosom or a whispering of the spirit a passage that's really important for us to understand Paul the Apostle written to the Corinthians that he was afraid were being deceived by some false teachers said this and maybe John can get up on the screen for us but in 2nd Corinthians chapter 11 verse 3 and 4 I think you get a hint that would really hit the nail on the head if you will but I fear less somehow as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ for if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received or a different gospel which you have not accepted you may well put up with it notice that the false teachers were bringing a different Jesus a different spirit and a different gospel it sounds like that's why there's the big debate are Mormons Christians right because they want to sound and be just like Christians it's a different Jesus it's a different spirit it's a different gospel and and the enemy obviously well what will their ministers look like that the corresponding verses later in that chapter verses 13 through 15 says for such are false apostles deceitful workers transforming themselves into apostles of Christ and no wonder for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness whose end will be according to their work right so if the enemy can transform himself into an angel of light doesn't his ministers look like that those who are look at the good things they're doing look at all of these different things so different spirit different gospel and a different Jesus and then their ministers are false ministers but for a counterfeit now if I tried to pass off a counterfeit if I use monopoly money how far would I get by if I show up at Walmart with monopoly money so there we go this is for my mouth but if I get something that's so close but it's still counterfeit that's a much craftier deception and to me the LDS church Mormonism is one of the best counterfeits that looks so much like Christianity that most people are baffled and confused but that means it's a good one I also have two little thoughts on that and one is that the church the LDS Church operates a great deal on feelings that's the purpose of fast and testimony meeting it's we share we share testimony we so instead of worrying about facts and and doctrine and real deep kinds of things taking Bible verses verse by verse in context and so on we just go off feelings and when that drives you then you can be sieved the heart can be deceived and feelings are not always reliable they're good they're our support for a testimony once you have facts and faith but feelings can be deceptive and the other thing you know always bothered me as a latter-day saint because one of the things missionaries do and and that's I think may be the genesis of this is the missionaries are out there telling people to fast and pray or at least pray because by the Spirit of the Holy Ghost Holy Spirit you'll be able to know the truth of all things and it was always interesting to me that you have to be baptized into the church to be given the gift of the Holy Ghost but we do allow for a temporary moment we allow investigators to get the Holy Ghost so that they can learn that the Book of Mormon is true and then but and one of the things that we've been accused of and my wife was told this to her face that the glow has gone out of her eyes and the Holy Ghost isn't with her anymore because she's apostatized from the church and you know that that is never I don't god never intended the Holy Ghost to be withdrawn if your heart is pure and and your striving to be christ-like the Holy Spirit will be with you whether you've been given a blessing or not so also along those lines because it's such an important point that are brought up that all of Mormonism is emotional driven read this and get a feeling about it rather than study with your mind ask questions but the Bible says to love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your mind with all your soul with all your strength that it's important that we bring everything to the table in seeking the Lord and when we begin to read and study and find out and that's the way Earl came out of Mormonism was actually using his mind if you'd have just stuck to his feelings then you know absolutely I would have never investigated all right the fourth question in this category how do we prevent our family from baptizing us into the LDS Church after we die well the quick answer is I don't think you can you're dead gone and unless you have some kind of a will that says I will never in perpetuity never be baptized into the church and of course now I believe it doesn't really have any value so and that's kind of the run thing they're running into with the Jews and the Holocaust where they're baptizing for the dead I'm not sure it's that big of a deal I guess for culture they maybe feel like they're being disrespected but I think and this is one of the interesting things about work for the dead if we want to talk about that for two seconds and that is I I know of a couple of people who hated each other in life they're husband and wife and sometimes they divorced and sometimes they just live together and pain and agony but they both pass away and then family brings them together and gets them married in the temple for time and all eternity so so here's these people that hate each other and they end up getting sealed forever so now the LDS view of that to be honest is that they believe that will get worked out in the millennium and people will come to love each other have a greater gift of love and more forgiveness and that they'll appreciate having had that having that work done for them yeah I wouldn't I've had family that's LDS tell me be assured Rick the work will be done for you so they're gonna baptize so you're covered both ways yeah so I just once again it it's a lot of wasted energy and motion that has no biblical foundation no validity for spiritual life and if anything you should smile and say look at all that work they're going to for nothing you know it's a it's just really you know a waste of time and you can encourage them not to do it but whether they do it or not that's up to them are there quote tells we're Mormons know whether someone is Mormon or not well I watched Sean McCraney on his show many times he encourages people to call in of course he invites LDS to call in usually but it doesn't take very long the vernacular of a Christian is different than the vernacular of a Mormon and that doesn't take long one of the things it's a tell is the little line here for garments if you're looking for something physical I'm not sure if there are there any others that I don't know other than though the words they use and and perhaps I think go ahead with the next question and okay the next question is does wearing a cross necklace say quote I'm not Mormon yeah I was we didn't want to steal your thunder there with that question I think once you start wearing a cross and I think that's so sad I I just I just enjoy in the in the cross now and I it's an empty cross it means that my Savior lived and died for me and was resurrected and and I wish I don't know why Joseph had such an affinity against the cross he gave us the angel or on I I don't know if he did that but somebody decided to put angel Moroni he's on the top of temples instead of crosses and the Bible tells us quite clearly doesn't it to look to the cross and to have our sins nailed to the cross and so many references to the cross I think that's one of the disservice --is that joseph did was to take our eyes off the cross to those in top mormon leadership know the truth you know when I read that book b8 Roberts book about the view of the Hebrews he presented that letter to the First Presidency into the quorum of the twelve and he told them or gave them some options and he says we could be silent about these issues but our youth will hate us and I think the church in some ways is reaping the repercussions of not telling the truth I don't know if you heard that Marvin Jenson I believe a church historian went to the Utah State University and entertained a group of people and he started telling them that in fact his daughter well he started telling them about some of these things and this realizing that there were a lot of people leaving the church mainly the twenty to thirty-five year olds who could get on the internet and kind of figure things out but then there was a group of us over 50 55 who are learning the truth about all these things and they're feeling betrayed and disappointed that they've never been told these things and his daughter came to him and said dad why didn't you ever tell me that Joseph Smith had practice polygamy I always grew up thinking or believing that Joseph Smith died and then a lot of women wanted to be associated with him as a future God and became part of his harem or became part of his polygamous family and so they see it were sealed to him I did not know until more recently that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and then later on he receives a revelation and tells Emma that she has to accept those that he's taken as wives or she would be destroyed thus saith the Lord so to answer your question I think I think the leadership knows stuff they know that things are happening they know people are leaving and I don't think they can deny that and I think shows like I hope the x-files that I'm doing in the heart of the matter and Doris's adores Hansen's polygamy what love is this is bringing a lot of that to to their attention this next section of questions are questions that people had regarding the differences in doctrine first question is is Mormonism Christianity are Mormons Christians let's put that the next question that falls that with it okay the question number two similar is the Mormon Church a cult well first of all biblical traditional Christianity is defined by its beliefs from the Word of God and so everything that has cropped up for the last 2,000 years anything that is aberrant or different or follows a different human leader than just simply the Lord Jesus this is from a biblical traditional Christians perspective and those who would be in Christendom in a larger picture would view anything that doesn't line up with Scripture a cult is defined by aberrant teaching with a prominent leader that's that's the definition of a cult aberrant teaching from biblical traditional Christianity with a distinct clear leader that is outside of biblical boundaries so in that definition Mormonism would be a cult following Joseph Smith all of the doctrines that are so radically different from who God is to who Jesus is - how do you get saved from from A to Z from beginning to end Mormonism is a different foundation it's a different leader it's a different belief system and Mormons in it even if you're a committed Mormon here tonight and you would say I'm offended when people say we are not Christians you only have two it's a really a skewed view if you only turn that around it becomes very clear if I ask you as a traditional biblical Christian would you consider me a good Mormon they'll step back and their eyes get kind of big and they know I don't hold the Roenick priesthood I don't hold the Melchizedek Priesthood I didn't go on a mission I didn't sealed in the temple I don't have a testimony of Joseph Smith or that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the true Church of God I have none of those things and so would you consider me a good Mormon the answer would have to be emphatic alene oh so in the same vein how can a biblical traditional Christian that knows what Christian doctrine is and they know what Mormon teaching is consider those the same thing and just so that you know that goes for those who are Jehovah Witnesses anybody that's you know is Islam Christians because they go back to Abraham and you know relationship they're know so I'd also add that some of the things I've had to deal with or in my own mind is who Jesus is because they're they're are they are different and I've come to realize that first of all Jesus was God and he's not a created being he's God he's always been God and one of the questions I asked in my 17 minute presentation is was God I'm sorry was Jesus a God before he came to the earth in the more in Mormonism Jesus had - interestingly enough Jesus had to come here to fulfill all righteousness he had to come and be baptized he had to gain a body he had to go through mortality in order for him to become a god now interestingly enough the Mormons teach that he is the Jehovah of the Old Testament which means he was a God so the question is kind of why did he have to then come to earth if he was already a God was he a little God or was he you know what kind of a God was he because again he was the god of the when it says in Isaiah that there is only one God the Mormon thinking of that is that that is Jesus as Jehovah that's not God the Father that's how they explained that into themselves that he is only one God but if he was God he did not need to come to earth and he was not created and you know that was the joy that I had as I gained that revelation in that testimony that my God would be willing to come to earth and suffer for me and do for me what I could not do for myself the Almighty God was willing to do that where the Mormon God is just my brother he came down here he had to come to earth to and and I can become a god just like him if I'm a good boy third question why is it so important for the LDS Church to announce the number of LDS people and do they count deceased LDS people as well I doubt they do deceased people I think we probably had that would put our numbers up even more I don't know the answer to that particular actually if that's true or not I think the announcement about LDS people and I used to revel I hate to say this out loud but I used to just thrilled when some apostle or 70 or somebody would come and give us numbers we have 10,000 wards now we have 14 million people we're doing this in Bangladesh or we're doing this here and there it I honestly think it's a pride it's a pride thing they can show that the church is growing and that's what the numbers are all about always fourth question can you describe the temple ceremony are there secret handshakes why do you have to wear special garments in the temple ceremony what is the significance of the temple I'll be very respectful of course of the temple it's it's sacred to the latter-day Saint and so I won't say anything too specific it is a processional kind of a thing and you move from one phase to another and you take on new covenants and make new pledges to God in the process if you look up and unfortunately or fortunately these days everything's on the Internet so but if you look up masonry and I hate to say that but if you look up the word masonry and the internet you will see almost everything that was done in the temple and that's one of the things I mentioned in my lesson and my talk is that Kirtland temple was built in 1836 and they're virtually was nothing happened there and I think that if God had wanted his work done in the Kirtland temple like like you would expect to have happened that it would have been full of ordinances and rites and temple marriages seven years later after Joseph becomes a Master Mason then all of a sudden the Nauvoo temple has all the rights and things and of course they brought that out here too to the Salt Lake Temple so describing the temple ceremony again you do put on different clothing in fact it just kind of struck us today as we were talking a little bit earlier that if you've seen an LDS person being buried and you've seen them in their casket that is those are the clothing that is the clothing that a person wears at the end of the procession in the temple so it isn't very secret or sacred well it's sacred but it in other words that person is buried in what we call their temple clothes with the apron and and and the other stuff they wear so that's something you'd see and we used to wear special garments in the temple we used to take our own garments off and put on different garments in the temple but I think out of expediency they allowed us to just wear the ones that we brought from home the significance of the temple I'll let my learn a colleague here talk about the purposes of temples well the there is no need for temples today and so the LDS Church pick you know very much in kind of an Old Testament vein type of way with the priesthood the ironic priesthood the Melchizedek Priesthood those kinds of things or the picture of it when Jesus died he said destroy this temple and three days later he would raise it up so he rose from the dead that day when he died on the cross and he said it is finished and he gave up his spirit the veil was torn in two from top to bottom at the temple to declare now the way is made open through the blood of Jesus Christ to go into the Holy of Holies that we don't need a temple made with hands now the Bible says very clearly and in many passages in the book of Ephesians chapter 1 first Corinthians chapter 6 that we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit that God has chosen to make his home inside of us and where the temple of the Holy Spirit so we don't need a building made with hands we don't need a temple in any way shape or form but once again symbols ritual religion that which is copic in nature Masonic Lodge rituals inside is what is kind of the mystery and attraction of that which is false we have a secret way to get in there and you need a temple recommend in all of these different things and it says to everyone without a temple recommend you're not good enough you can't come in here and it's a way to the thing about secretiveness or and the others people don't like the word secret they've liked the word sacred but the bottom line is that cultic behavior thrives in seclusion the more isolated it is the more that generationally they can just continue on and so even the secretiveness of the temple and then you have to have their special rights and things and so there's just those things that are by nature that isolate and separate and I'm better because I've reached this through my good works I'm acceptable and you I'm not temple worthy but you are and and those kinds of things well the other thing I learned is that the purpose of this of Solomon's Temple which is the temple I suppose is the is the shedding of blood they brought in animals and they shed blood and once Jesus shed his blood it is finished there would be no more need for a temple there was one other little thought there and maybe it'll come back to me sorry the next question is number five does the Book of Mormon plagiarize the Bible Joseph Smith used many resources to I think generate the Book of Mormon and he does extensively use the King James Version which of course is a criticism because in the Book of Mormon we have words like Timothy that's Greek there are other words that are Greek of origin and that language wasn't around when the Nephites left Jerusalem back in 600 BC so the fact that he used the King James extensively now I think the LDS would say that well he could see that if we were going to do isaiah 14 or 29 or whatever verses of chapters were included in the Book of Mormon from Isaiah so he just then went over to Isaiah and pulled it out and put it in that's kind of the explanation I think that we always accepted but in true translation there would be no way that some of the words that are certainly 15th 16th century or Greek should be in the Book of Mormon and they our next question is is there validity to the idea that Jesus visited the Lamanites and the Nephites is there any genetic connection between the Lamanites and Nephites and Native Americans well I guess this is up for debate but Jesus did say I have other sheep that are not of this fold them also I must visit and they will hear my voice and so on I've come to realize that in context he meant to Gentiles rather than people over in America so I don't believe there is any validity to that fact I think Joseph Smith just either used that scripture or decided to bring Jesus into into his Book of Mormon and is there any genetic connection this is one of the things the BH Roberts book that I read again had those five points but he didn't even know or we didn't know about DNA at the time I think that would have put BH Roberts over the top because it's just very clear that we have an Asiatic group of Native Americans here the interesting thing is that that is the one we were tired of talking about is that when Joseph Smith sent missionaries to the Lamanites Oliver Cowdery and I think a couple of others that he sent to the Lamanites he sent them to like Ohio and Illinois to the western frontier to visit the Lamanites there and of course they have no DNA correspondence with with the Jews or with Hebrews so we just believe that there was no course but there were no Lamanites or Nephites the American Indians came over from the Bering Strait if you haven't seen the video DNA versus the Book of Mormon it's very definitive from they've tested Native Americans all the way down to the South America Central America North America and the experts at secular schools they have no ax to grind with any religious question simply declare those people connect genetically with DNA to Asia they came across the Bering Strait and populated the Americas at another time DNA so specific that there's no they would see traces of a Jewish bloodline and a latter-day Saint sorry we'll probably use the explanation that we may not know now but it will be found and it will come forward we will find the answers so it's more of a in those kinds of questions its we will eventually understand it and it will eventually come to light and of course we will be proven we the LDS will be proven true but it's always based on a hope that does isn't supported by fact and it's always just believed by faith even when fact says that you know obviously ok question 7 were the witnesses who claim to have seen the golden plates reliable well it's interesting Sean McCraney has taken an interesting twist on this and he he has explained and it's very true that the Smith family and the Whitmer family may have joined together to dupe Martin Harris and if you go through the 11 witnesses there's three witnesses to the Book of Mormon and eight other witnesses to the Book of Mormon either they're related or they are actually Whitmer's or Smith's except for Martin Harris and he's the one that had the money and so the thinking is his thought was that they were all in on this including the Book of Mormon the gold plates and everything to get money from Martin Harris whether that's true or not I don't know Mark Twain had a cute little couplet or something about I wouldn't have been more surprised if the whole Whitmer and Smith family had seen the gold plates you know of some kind of equip that he had because it was so obvious that it was at one site and the other point on that is that if Joseph Smith actually had gold plates and he wanted to verify that to the world he might have brought in the mayor an attorney and a few people that were reliable someone outside of the Whitmer and the Smith family Christian Aid how do you address the claim by Mormons that Christian leaders need and are lacking quote priesthood Authority and quote to teach baptize etc it's one of the major questions that I get in an LDS community who gives you your authority because they believe that only the authority of the church and the laying on of hands but Jesus gave the authority after his resurrection first of all to the Apostles in the church in Matthew 28:18 through 20 and I just quote these several verses when people ask about our authority that has been given to the church Jesus came and spoke to them all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you and lo I am with you always even to the end of the age amen so this is the authority Jesus gave to the Apostles and the church and it's for 2,000 years here we are you think about how far removed we are from Jerusalem 2,000 years ago and following that some will say well that's just the Apostles but no he gives even to the church it tells us in Ephesians chapter 4 verse 11 and 12 we can read it together he gave he himself gave some to be apostles some prophets some evangelists some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the Saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ so the Holy Spirit has been gifting his church and his people for 2,000 years and that's how it works he gifts us I'm called and gifted to be a pastor teacher so 18 years ago I came to town and was singing a few songs and had a Bible study and had some cookies and punch and loved one another and then people came and heard the word and started getting saved and then we baptize them last week we baptize 85 to 90 people we're still just pretty much praise the Lord so I don't you know because of the size of our ministry now LDS folks don't give me that question very much because of this the obvious fruit of what's going on but one last verse with acts 1:8 it's just an important one that followed in Matthew 28 and in acts 1:8 it tells us but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses to me in Jerusalem and in all Judea and marry into the end of the earth so here we are kinda at the end of the earth bones actually the end of the earth but we're really close so it's it's what he's been doing and the Christian Church Christendom for 2,000 years the Lord has been since the birth of the church at Pentecost the Holy Spirit gifts raises up and uses and as a matter of fact we cannot as man ordained other men do you understand that the Holy Spirit has to do that all we can do as men is we recognize the work of the Spirit in a guy's life hey you seem to be called is that what God's doing in your heart yes then we recognize that and all we can do is kind of ratify and acknowledge what the Lord has done in someone's life and that's what happened to me in our local church and it happens it's been happening multiple thousands of times for the last 2,000 years and people have been getting saved and doing the work without the authority or the laying on of hands of the LDS Church could I just add one little quick thing to that sorry Caleb are we running out of time sorry one of the things that hit me in my little two or three year process of trying to find the truth I was sitting in priesthood meeting one day for those of you that might be LDS or you'd like to really look up something interesting I was looking we were reading in section 27 of the Doctrine and Covenants and there it sits and tells me about these things of Joseph Smith who he who came to him and visited him and I was so thrilled I thought maybe I've got something I can hang my hat on this was important and I look back at the heading and it was says 1829 and I thought my goodness this is it I've really found something before 1832 or 1830 that really supports this so if you will look up section 27 and then go look up the book of Commandments and find out what actually was written in 1832 1833 about section 27 instead of being this long it's about this long that section and it doesn't have anything about the priesthood visitors it was all added later and I don't know if Joseph just needed to somebody asked me about why did he end up saying that he saw the father in the Sun and the only answer I can give to that is in hindsight now is that he had to bolster his position he either had to bring priesthood into it or he had to show that he had seen God and Jesus those things were all added later they do not correspond to the dates that we've that I was taught and raised on so if you're taking notes section 27 I would just say one one other thought surrounding that is that not only the the comment about the priesthood in first Peter chapter 2 Peter tells us that we are all a kingdom of priests we're a royal nation we're a holy priesthood God has called all of us to be a witness and a minister for the Lord so every single born-again Christian according to 1st Peter chapter 2 and also in Revelation chapter 1 verse 5 we are a kingdom of kings and priests so we can share the Lord with people and we can intercede on people's behalf through the Lord and that's all the priest does and so every single one of you in this room if you're born again you're not only a saint but according to scriptures you're also a priest in the New Testament sense and I was just going to say that as you an LDS person and I could finally do this realize that there was a flaw there then you could believe in the Christian walk and the Christian authority to baptize and to give blessings or do whatever else okay question number nine describe the difference between Mormon and Christian doctrines on the origin of God and the number of God's I'll do one on our Christian God and I'll let you have the rest the origin of God you know any child and it happens in our school and it happened in my own children's hearts they get to be about five or six and they ask that beautiful question well I understand that God made me and God made the heavens and the earth and six days and rested on the seventh but who made God now that is just a fundamental question isn't it but the Bible is clear and we can go to a number of verses and I have a few here we're a little strict restricted on time so I'm going to keep my answers short is the Bible clearly teaches that the eternal God that we love and serve that is represented to us revealed to us as the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but these three make up the one true and living God we call it the tri unity or three and one true and living God is eternal has always existed now that's a little hard for our little pea brains to wrap our mind he has always been when he in the beginning created the heavens in the earth his his history is without end it's without beginning it's without end he is the eternal God and just if you're a note-taker I Deuteronomy 33 he's called the eternal one which means eternal and he's the beginning in the end without any knowing any other maybe we should show that one john isaiah 43:10 and i have a list of other ones but you are my witnesses says the lord and my servant whom i love chosen that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he before me there was no God formed nor shall there be after me so it says it all and so then the Mormon doctrine on who God is radically different well then the Mormons have the same little problem with who was the first God I mean the Mormons believe that we can all become gods if we go through that process appropriately so they still have that problem who was the first god but they believe in a eternal progression of God so that has a father who had a father who had a father and then that explains how we can also become gods so there is no real definitive answer other than God has always existed that we can understand as a finite but the LDS have that same problem if you will of who what where was the first God so we're gonna take a minute here and now is your last opportunity if you have any questions to put them in the box before we collect the questions from tonight and then the next question we're gonna skip down to 11 and 12 and doctrine some Mormons say the LDS Church doesn't stand or fall on Joseph Smith how can they justify this and question 12 is similar is Joseph Smith considered more powerful than Jesus and Mormonism can I just share what people have told me in that you're talking to a Mormon you're witnessing to them do you share with them you've discovered some things that are false about Joseph Smith or one of the one of the powerful discoveries is that when you read the history of the polygamy it is really in Mormon America by Richard auslan he does an incredible job in documentation and that chapter alone and and and I'll share that with a Mormon and they'll tell me something like well we don't we don't all believe everything that Joseph said and it doesn't really matter to us what he said you know our church is a good thing and look at the good works we do and so why is that a big deal and they just kind of dodge if there's something that's unflattering about his history they just kind of deflect it and they say it doesn't really matter and I I think that's why at times I felt this this question as well as valid question yeah I I don't know how the church could ever anyone could ever say that it doesn't stand or fall it's kind of like the phrase that I used in my talk was if you took Christ out of Mormonism what do you have and you still have Mormonism and if you took Joseph Smith out of Mormonism it really would fall because you if you didn't believe in Joseph Smith and there is no first vision and there is no Book of Mormon and the church even the leaders of the church have made it clear that those are the foundational things of of the LDS Church so I don't really think if it was ever proven beyond anyone's doubt that Joseph Smith was not a prophet but the culture would stand now I think it's well in place some some kind of a culture would still stand and that would yeah okay here we're going oh I'm sorry what you also asked about whether Joseph Smith was considered more powerful than Jesus he did do a boast I don't know how many of you looked at up Joe Joseph Smith's boast look that up on the Internet but he claims that he was able to hold a church together and even Peter Paul and even Jesus couldn't do that so he was he was a very proud person okay so we're gonna move on to witnessing we're gonna skip a few questions in the doctrine because of times sake first question I've recently come out of Mormonism how can I witness to my LDS family friends and co-workers in love it's really tough and I don't know how many of you have family you probably a lot of you do I have family that's still in the church and you know we're just trying to trust God and turn things over to him I do think you can ever argue anyone or talk anyone into becoming to understanding the weaknesses of Mormonism I think God has to open their hearts in some way and you just never know when some scripture some thought will make them think a little bit I we I wish we could do a quick question and answer on this one because maybe some of you have some wonderful thoughts or things that you've done to witness to people and I'd like to hear them because I could use it to it's very difficult and if they're not willing to listen then it it's very difficult if they are willing to listen or at least try to and so I use other things I'll use someone else's book or I have handed out grant Palmer's book again and I I'm going to hand out the A to Z book to people just so that they can look at it maybe something there would touch them I'll just fall in the second question okay the next question is a Christian with a non LDS background how can I share with Mormon friends family and co-workers well as Earl shared it's just really important that anybody we talk to whether the LDS are just good old boy that's lost it needs to be with with kindness because you can't really lead anybody if they don't since you care and and it's just so true for us and what we see all the time is that there is no quick answer to being a witness in a Mormon community it takes sometimes years of a relationship to where they would finally lower their defenses and have you shared with them I would like to give you just a verse that would help you in all of your sharing which is really important first Peter 3:15 because it gives us the right willingness and then it gives us the right heart and the attitude it tells us in 1st Peter 3:15 but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts meaning that he is the most important thing in your life so obviously gonna talk about him always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you and it tells us how to do it with meekness that's in a humble attitude rather than a haughty I know better than you are a prideful condescension with meekness and fear the fear is respect I respect you you can be a Hindu you can be a Buddhist you can be whatever you are I don't know for those who we have a brother I don't know Tavis here tonight Tabor you here caiva is a Hindu from Sri Lanka was a Hindu from Sri Lanka hung out at our church for the last seven months and I would talk with Taiba about his Hindu roots and then I would share with him but this is the Christian gospel and and we would go over it you know every every couple of weeks he would come up to me and he'd have the same conversation and and table has given his life to Christ and he was in our Easter play he's only been saved for about two months now and but it's really important that you have that humble meekness and a respect for people if they don't sense the mutual respect people will tell me nobody's listening to him at work and then they tell me how they're talking oh man I said well I wouldn't want to listen to you at work you seem rude and condescending and and you're smarter than everybody else and rather than having a kindness and being patient and this is one of the things that's helped me a lot if you share with them for a month and they don't believe are you still gonna be kind after that are just gonna write them off and forget about her they a notch in your Bible or 20 years from now would you still have that loving concern for them and and love just love never fails love never fails and it's the truth in love but I think is an LDS / non-lds person because I am a non LDS person when I dialogue with someone and they'll ask me oh so have you ever thought about Mormon Mormonism I'll share with them I start with the heart and soul Mormonism is I said well you know I've investigated Mormonism and its whole premise is eternal progression that men and women if they do these steps and these rules they can ascend to godhood and and to me from a as a traditional Christian that's really blasphemous there's one true and living God and and 90% of those people I share that with say we don't believe that and I say well go check it out and I send him on a little get him a little homework go check it out and and they do so you got to start somewhere in some respects it almost seems like it it's the broken person that has there are some of us that come out because of doctrine there are those that are concerned about the history the the polygamy and so on and they start questioning things but generally it's a lot of them are people don't feel worthy they feel guilty and sometimes people are at wit's end and they have to turn their life over to Christ and they just say I can't do this anymore I I don't know where to go and they turn their lives over to God those are the people that are humble and God can work with a Mormon generally an active Mormon is very proud very prideful they think they have things together they have no reason to look and so unless it's some kind of a story or something of a major miracle in my life that happened it allowed me to look at things just a little differently it's very difficult to share and I would just say one more thing they're open to the there's kind of a method to our madness when we come to Christmas and Easter two of the times that people are more open than ever and even LDS people in our community I've discovered over the years that they'll come to a musical they'll come to a play even if it's at our church because they can tell others if they it's discovered that they came well I heard it was a play I was it was a musical it wasn't Church and we got to present the Gospel through that and to look for opportunities like that that are out of the the norm to invite them to that they might come and see that because once you know Earl maybe he could even just share for a moment but the difference between our atmosphere of church and the LDS Church I would think is like night and day but there's a lot of joy and people when they come in I had this Mormon come to church and he was very somber and he told me afterwards and he was dead serious he shook my hand and he said do you guys have way too much fun for this to be Church yeah we're a very stoic little group and our little it's funny I of course used to sit on the stand all the time and a little the Erskine family would be sitting here in the Jensens here and the Smiths over here and we all had our little spots in the out in the desert there out in the seats and it was just kind of funny but they all sit there and they are all so proud and then their white shirts and everything and and to have somebody play a guitar and some music and some drums and actually praise God and a joyous way is just totally foreign to a latter-day Saint they do not understand that it would be very shocking for them they feel uncomfortable seeing the cross it don't but seeing a cross they it's just interesting the culture and it's it's quite palpable actually so now this is a short one it's not so short what are some do's and don'ts for witnessing to Mormons well you know again to not be confrontational you're just not going to make any headway I guess if you can get into a dialogue it's just been interesting listening again to these X Files and the stories that people have shared how someone started listening to Charles Stanley on his way home from work every day you know it's just day after day he keeps listening to this word and eventually if some reason it started hitting him and there was another person that had a co-worker that they didn't have much going on in the late night and they'd be visiting and talking about this or that and so you just never know I wouldn't give up witnessing I would take any opportunity and and do it very gently and with the spirit pray about it and have asked God to open their hearts and minds I would just you know just reiterate we already said just be be determined to be a friend whether they ever come to Christ or not and you will have opportunities you're gonna have you're gonna have opportunity in just to share very brief story we had a gal in our church sweet sister in the Lord she just raped she was one of those she just radiated with the joy of the Lord and she worked at the hospital over here there was five ladies that worked in the office so the other four were all temple Mormons and her name was Kathy she since moved back to the South but there was an incident in one of the ladies lives and in tho four of them were temple Mormons she was the only born-again Christian she called Kathy and Kathy came and she said I'm so thankful you called I'd love to sit with you and pray with you through this crisis but she said I just have to ask you your other sisters your other Mormon sisters are all three temple Mormons and why'd you call me and the gal just rolled her eyes she had worked with them for five years just being a consistent witness for five years and this LDS girl just rolled her eyes and she said Kathy all four of us know you're the one that knows Jesus and and that's that's what their perspective was but it took her five years to earn that opportunity in love and trust this is the last question you're witnessing if you had if you only had a few minutes to tell him Mormon the Gospel message what would you say Wow if you didn't hear the first wow I only got two minutes well if I only got two minutes I mean just figure I'm never going to talk to this person that's two minutes I'm going for broke if I got two minutes hey you know I really believe Joseph Smith is a false prophet he's led the Mormon Church astray but Jesus has come to save you and I forgive you by His grace you he's died on the cross for your sins he's buried and rose from the dead and you can put your faith and trust in him and he loves you and he'll accept you and you can go to heaven because of the grace of Jesus but Joseph's not gonna get you in that was about 35 seconds goodbye I would actually tell an LDS person to if they could try to read the Bible as a child and to open it up to pray to God and ask for help to understand and boy it's just so tough because when you're blind you're blind and when you can't see you can't see and I had my blinders on for 65 years and I was reading those same scriptures in the Bible and the Book of Mormon well the Book of Mormon many times but those biblical scriptures in the Book of Mormon but the Bible I read many times and I just never even knew those scriptures were there because I wasn't reading them in context the question was asking about why about baptism for the dead and why we do that well in context that first Corinthians 15 is all about the resurrection Paul just simply asks a rhetorical question to people who don't believe in the resurrection why are you baptizing for the dead when the dead don't rise he wasn't preaching a doctrine or asking him to do a baptism for the dead and when the Mormons read that in context they may come to understand that but right now it's the only reference and all of the standard works about baptism well at least in the Bible about the baptism for the dead and that that is true of the sticks of Joseph and just so many other things that are in Mormonism they just do not read the Bible in context so I'd ask him to read it as a child this next series of questions are all the questions from the box from this evening the first one is please explain the different levels of heaven well from the Christian perspective Paul the Apostle says in first Corinthians or excuse me 2nd Corinthians chapter 12 that I know a man whether in the body out of the body I don't know that was taken to the third heaven and so the Mormons have made a doctrine out of that that to the third heaven that there's three heavens but to the Jewish mind for the New Testament Christian when Paul said I was taken to the third heaven what he meant by that the first heaven the jewy Jews looked at the world this way the atmosphere where you see birds flying is the first heaven so you know the clouds you see the birds flying the second level was you could see the Stars and the moon and in all those things but the third heaven was actual presence of God it was the heavenly scene and so that is the definition of the third heaven in the Jewish mind the way that Paul the Apostle presented it and and then it became a major just like the baptism for the dead and it's in the same section or in same first Corinthians 15 Joseph Smith in 1st Corinthians 15 I think 40 41 it talks about things that are celestial and things that are terrestrial well if you look at that as a child you're understanding that there are heavenly things and there are earthly things well Joseph Smith added a third one called the Telestial and I really think besides the fact that he put a distrust in our hearts for the Bible the other thing that he did that was probably the most harmful thing is to create a series of heavens the celestial the terrestrial and the Telestial because it eliminates what we call in the Bible heaven and hell and when you read these wonderful scriptures about blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God or everlasting life eternal life that's heaven but in the LDS Church they would argue maybe it's just resurrection it doesn't mean going to the celestial kingdom plus it's also a pride thing here again where it's not just heaven and hell but you're looking down on people who haven't been through the temple you have to be baptised I had some very good friends art friends one of them is very active LDS and she said to about these two Christians I guess they're Christians but they're not LDS she said well I know I'm going to be with them in heaven and I said well I I agree I think we will be with them in heaven but they won't be with you in the celestial kingdom and say well yes they will they'll be with me in God and all this or whatever we were saying quite and and I said well no that's not that's not really what we believe well I believe that and I said well that's fine if you believe that but that's not what the Church teaches those people have to be baptized into the Mormon Church and go through the temple in order to go to this at least be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom and again if you really want to get somewhere then you get married in the temple for time and all eternity so I think that concept of heaven and hell and changing that to different levels of heaven it was a very sad thing that Joseph Smith put on on everyone do Mormons believe Jesus and the devil are brothers yeah yeah we do they do I love that I love that I'm empathizing Jesus is our God somehow in the Mormon context got his godhood that was always a funny little thing for me I always wondered what is it like next week I get to wake up as God or do I get a diploma how is it that I actually now know that I'm God and that I have all this knowledge it was just always a strange little concept for me too to think I was going to become a God and how will I know you know well I know everything there is to know when I'm God and that was just kind of weird where was I headed with that sorry what's up brothers so our God then had all these wives I guess and we always wondered about that whether it was test-tube or whatever but anyway he had all these spiritual children Jesus was the first one Satan Lucifer was the second one and then we all followed after and so our elder brother Jesus stepped forward with a plan and Lucifer stepped forward with a plan they offered the plans and won Lucifer's was very selfish in whatever and and God accepted Jesus's plan and so yes those Lucifer's my brother and Jesus would be my brother from the Mormon perspective but from the Mormon perspective now I no longer his brothers lose a little Jesus I just want to help him out yeah okay so but then now I know Jesus is my god the Bible clearly teaches everything was created through Jesus and without Jesus nothing was made that includes all the principalities that the devil was made and created through our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus they're not equals in any way shape form sometimes people have the devil or Lucifer at the same level as just angel he was just a fallen angel and when you world yes were you seeking God or were you seeking something else ie the church's approval boy that's interesting because I spent my mission in Denmark and when I got home many years later I was still Mormon but I thought started thinking you know I don't I never really talked about Jesus out there I was teaching Joseph Smith seeing God the Father the Book of Mormon and the plan of salvation these heavens that we were talking about that's what I was preaching so now I think part of that question is was I to be seen a man kind of was I seeking God I just I think assumed that I would understand God and know God I believed in him and and I was just kind of going through the emotions of that but Jesus and God are in fact you don't really say Jesus in the Mormon Church it's more Savior and Redeemer and that kind of thing but no I really didn't find Jesus until after I loved Jannetty but I will say I believe that my testimony about God and Jesus is identical to all the other strong LDS testimonies that are out there it's just that we don't understand who he is can I just share piggyback on that Matthew 23:15 about missions because this is the question I often get is what about all the good works look at we're sending 50,000 missionaries out a year and I share with them and I quote Matthew chapter 23 verse 15 jesus was talking to the religious leaders of Pharisees and he said woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you travel land and sea to win one proselyte and when he is one you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves fifty thousand people isn't that a powerful verse and what they're out there doing is then deceiving people to bring him into a kingdom of darkness and you make them twice the son of hell that you are and so to say that that's great fruit and look what's happening to me as is one of the most to believe the lie is one thing but then you go door to door and try to cram that lie down other people's throat is to me the and ultimate to service to your fellow man how do Mormons explain the cross what is its purpose what are their thoughts on the Passion of the Christ show the movie well its r-rated so we we don't get to watch it it was our rated maybe I think that I think Mormons have a respect for the cross we believe that he physically died on the cross of course but the LDS believed that he suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane and that's where he paid the price I did not realize again a little somebody slipped this into my scriptures I know it was it wasn't there before that he was suckered by an angel in the Garden of Gethsemane and he was left alone on the cross and I think the LDS missed that that was where he was actually he actually made the decision and and was willing to do that and when he came out of the garden he said something and I'm sure you know it and I don't but did he say when he came out of the garden well there's something like now my work brides-to-be finish or something when they now is your hour and when he's gonna go to the cross but the whole garden three times when he said not my will but your will be done father if you take this cup from me that was the place of wrestling but all the price was paid and he did say in John's Gospel this is now your hour and he to go to the cross and pay the price for the sins it was always funny to me that there was such an emphasis on in the garden he sweat as it were great drops of blood only in Luke's Gospel as it were that as well as it were yeah and but the cross is the message from the read the rest of the New Testament is all about the message of the Cross not the message of the garden and and that's what Paul talked about completely never about the garden and it was so symbolic the cross throughout everything the serpent being raised and so on so all right put it in this clock we didn't want to go more than 90 minutes hour and a half we have three minutes okay when the LDS people give testimonies what exactly are they testifying to it doesn't seem to be the same definition as a Christian testimony you know I don't know you don't ever have testimony meetings do ya kind of things you have we had this Mormon guy share his testimony this weekend what do you mean we don't have testimony meetings oops nice comeback okay a lot of what we do in the Mormon Church is a lot by rote we have our little kids come up and say they're know that I believe in this I know this and this and this and so that's our training process I have to say that an LDS person standing up is sincere I I don't I would never judge that I mean they're being sincere they just don't understand and it the blindness is just incredible and I think I know I'm emphasizing that but there's a certain blindness and you're being led you feel good and you share stories but I know that you can go week after week in an LDS Church without hearing anything about Jesus well no they'll say that they improved they love Jesus and he atone for their sins yeah I mean it's it's very sincere it's heartfelt and they they believe it hook line and sinker more hook that way but really they're just blind they don't know what they're saying and that's what hard for us when Carl and I I'm sorry Carla and I was sitting there and listening to those testimonies that one son last Sunday we were there these good people just don't know what they're talking about and they just don't they don't know what they're saying all right this will be our last question for the evening do you feel a spirit of unconditional love in the church or a spirit of condemnation and a judgmental attitude in in is this sport in a Mormon Church it doesn't specify oh did you feel a spirit of unconditional love in the church or a spirit of condemnation and a judgmental attitude that's just the plan well if there's just such a freedom in Christianity it's just wonderful and there's absolutely judgment in the church and there's so many that have shared their stories with me and and you're probably well aware of them people that just don't feel like they fit in and we had a fellow that was an elders quorum president who loved to wear a blue shirt to church and I sat on the stand as a counselor of one of these bishop breaks and the stake president was there turned over and leaned across me to get to the bishop and said isn't that the elders quorum president he's wearing a blue shirt I mean really does it matter but that's you know he was representing the priesthood or something and he had to be in his shoe so he asked the bishop to make sure that that brother knew that he was to wear a white shirt well you know if you've gone if you've been LDS you know that there's a lot of judgment in there and they look down on people they don't accept people very very well they'll accept you as long as they think you're moving toward joining the church that would be they would forgive you for your words and actions and talking and so on if you're moving toward becoming a member of the church I assure you as soon as you tell them that you're not interested in joining a church you'd be dropped like a hot potato hot potato okay that'll be our last question for the evening before you wrap things up I just want to thank everyone for coming out and for put your questions in I want to apologize we didn't get to all of them but the first Sunday night of every month we will be having a similar time where we're going to be kind of looking at the differences between what we believe and what other people of different faiths believe I want to encourage you to get a discovering the difference little card as you're walking out on the black table and they have a lot of great resources for unanswered questions so

Channel: Ex-Mormon Files

Views: 22,074

Rating: 4.5648537 out of 5

Keywords: earl erskine, question, answers, calvary chapel, idaho falls

Id: DtXmRsBZjt4

Length: 93min 15sec (5595 seconds)

Published: Fri May 11 2012