Dr. Stephen Phinney - 'Recent Developments in LCHF and Nutritional Ketosis' (Part 2)
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Channel: Low Carb Down Under
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Keywords: Low Carb Down Under, LCDU, www.lowcarbdownunder.com.au, LCHF, Nutritional Ketosis, Ketogenic Diet, Well Formulated Ketogenic Diet, Fasting, Muscle Wastage, Intermittant Fasting, WFKD, Ketones, Exogenous Ketones, BioChemistry, Dr. Stephen Phinney, Virta Health
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Length: 85min 26sec (5126 seconds)
Published: Sat Jan 14 2017
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Want to remind people Phinney works with data relating to normal weight or low BF populations, and Fung works with mostly the morbidly obese. Phinney can be right without completely invalidating Fung. That being said, Fung does need to start collating data.
My personal experience tells me all I need to know. I’ve done a series of fasts in 2018 totaling over 75 days. I see myself naked in the mirror every day. My muscles are fully intact. I can lift every single thing I used to be able to lift. I am not one iota weaker. If I’m losing muscle at the rate Dr. Phinney suggests, my muscles would be gone.
You know was has disappeared after all my fasting? A whole lot of my fat. :-)
Be very wary of claims of loss of “lean body mass”. Everyone assumes lean body mass = muscles. I’ve read definitions that say “fat mass” = adipose (fat) tissue and “lean mass” = everything else. If that’s the definition, then water is lean mass, the contents of your stomach are lean mass, your bowels are lean mass, your giant oversized liver is lean mass. You can lose a lot of this “lean mass” without any negative health outcome.
Dr. Stephen Phinney, one of the more respected scientific voices in low carb diet and metabolism, discussing fasting and its impacts on muscle loss (1:10:30 mark).
It looks, to me, that he is addressing Fung's claims and the mass of scientific data supporting that point.
In short, in his opinion, by day 3-4 of a full fast, lean muscle breakdown rate is up to 3/4 (0.75) lbs per day! Yes, the rate of protein loss will decrease over time... but you still lose a lot of muscle mass before you get there... and really that act of protein sparing (at Day 7, Day10, etc), is just a function of your metabolism slowing down.
EDIT: I'm confused, I admit it.
It isn't indirect. The only questions I have are around the reliance on old studies. In specific populations that don't generally relate to modern obese individuals.
Also tough to refute a practice with thousands and thousands of participants. Who don't suffer from these HUGE over simplified losses. I certainly don't experience nearly those effects, nor do others who often fast. Reliance on nitrogen balance in these studies is also highly problematic.
But Phinney can certainly kick my ass academically, so I'd want to see what a researcher as strong as Phinney has to say from the other side. Yo Fung, Phinney says you're a liar and he has studies not anecdote.
FYI - from his blog - https://blog.virtahealth.com/science-of-intermittent-fasting/
It looks like he is for keto diet and against fasting.
I was surprised by Dr. Fung's tepid defense of fasting in the recent article linked below. He seems to be saying it's ok for the obese but pretty risky for anyone else. https://nypost.com/2017/12/18/is-this-the-most-dangerous-diet-ever/
That's hogwash. If Prof. Phinney were right, I'd have no muscle tissue by now. Also, the issues about the loss of sodium and the refeeding syndrome only apply after particularly long fasts or you get extremely emaciated during your fast, not after 4 or 5 days. I really respect his views but he should stick to keto and nutritional ketosis.
Fasting - around for millenia, probably even before humans evolved. Ketogenic diet - created in 1900's to mimic fasting for epilepsy.
I love the ketogenic and low carb diets, but I do believe humans evolved their genetic machinery to deal with starvations (aka involuntary fasting, not ketogenic diets)