Dr. Gabor Maté on Israel/Palestine - October 28, 2023

hi Dad hi Hannah hi so we're here today to talk about what's going on in Israel and Palestine and um three weeks ago today on October 7th Hamas um entered Israel and killed 1,400 Israelis um took over 200 Israeli citizens hostage and in response Israel has um retaliated in a in a brutal fashion killing thousands of Palestinians and uh on October 7th you were away on a very busy speaking tour in eastern EUR Europe and you did one radio interview on the subject but we haven't yet addressed this on social media so for many this is long overdue and um want to acknowledge that and and we're here to talk about it today I'm glad to finally have the opportunity to be back home and to have a conversation with you about it um amongst many other conversations that I'll be having online which we can talk about later sure so I wonder if we want to just begin acknowledging how difficult it is to talk about this no matter where you stand and I'll let you speak to that this is one of the issues that first of all is most close to my heart and has been for decades and for a lot of people it it's like that and um it's almost imp possible to speak about it without emotion it doesn't matter which side you're on it just brings us so much um history so much pain and frankly so much trauma that it's difficult for us to engage with the rational parts of our minds when our emotions are so overwhelming in the light of such devastating events it's a very difficult conversation it is and we're going to do our best today um we you know want to remain regulated and rational and all those things and also acknowledging that for both of us this is emotional as well it's been a difficult few weeks um so why don't you go ahead and give us your comment beginning with you know what happened on October 7th and then of course sharing you know some of the history before that but let's begin with October 7th well October 7th um was um by any definition an atrocity and tragedy for those who suffered it um people being killed civilians non-combatant being taking hostage and uh for their relatives and the country people you know the their their fellow Israelis and many people around the world um they could not have experienced it as anything other as an assault assault that was um historically reminiscent of other assaults that Jews have experienced throughout history and that's the light of which a lot of people experienced it and interpreted it that's totally understandable and from that point of view the pain the fear the rage and even the desire for Revenge are totally understandable on the emotional side what is difficult to remember at times like this is that there is another side that there's other people having their own experiences based on their own history based on their own experience and nobody expressed that better than the Israeli journalist Amir has who for 30 years has been reporting from the West Bank and Amir said in the aftermath of the October 7th events and I'm going to quote from her article now in a few days she wrote Israelis went through what Palestinians have experienced as a matter of routine for decades and are still experiencing military incursions death cruelty slain children bodies piled up on the road Siege fear anxiety over loved ones captivity and Searing humiliation and so history did not begin on October the 7th and nothing I'm going to say here today or ever say will justify what happened on October 7th because that's not justifiable and I don't know anybody who says that it is at the same time if Our intention is to move forward to create some basis for peace we have to be able to understand the experience of the other and the experience of the other for the last 80 years and this is simply historical fact has been mass killings tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed thousands of children have been killed this is going back to 1947 48 that people have been expelled from their land they've been occupied yes there are 220 or so Israeli hostages for which one can only express regret and pray for their safety thousands of Palestinians are held hostage in Israeli jails and tortured professionally tortured and last year I was in the occupied territories working with women who had been tortured in Israeli jails so without going to the long history I will only tell you that we have to ask ourselves what fed such hatred such desire for revenge on the part of those people that broke out of Gaza and Gaza has been called the largest concentration cap in the world by an Israeli sociologist B Kimberling and I can only stop here and say I'm not going to go into the history now I will do in other forums I did a long interview a couple of days ago that will be online soon uh I'll be doing an online question answer period with the organization sand spirituality and non Duality next week sometime but in the meanwhile people do need to understand that horrible as those events are and nothing I'm saying again and repeat justifies it at the same time it did not begin on October the 7th and there is information that people owe to themselves to discover is information from Israeli and Palestinian sources may I mention some of them now please yeah in terms of Israeli histories begin with this book called the birth of Israel myths and realities by s flapan s fan was a lifelong kibot member he was a Zionist he fought in the 40 48 War he was the head of the um mam party's Arab Affairs branch and long ago he wrote this book where he pointed out that the things that many people believe about the birth of Israel was not the way it happened that the 4748 war was not the way it's presented in the official Israeli and pro Zionist histories you can begin with SE fan and we'll put uh the names um of everything that we discuss in the description of the video I'm s say again we'll put the names of everything that we in the description of the video for people access then there's the modern Israel historian Elam papy he's got a book called the history of modern Palestine you could check that out is a Palestinian source for Palestinian history you could read Rashid khalid's the 100 Years War against 100 Years War on Palestine a history of settler colonialism wonderful book very objective and not in in no way anti-jewish you can read ilam Pap's the ethnic cleansing of Palestine that describes what really happened in 197 1948 you can read the Magnificent Norman Feinstein's book Gaza and inquest into its martyrdom published in 2018 you can watch Norman felstein interviews with Chris hedges in the last couple of weeks you can watch Norman F interview with mik um uh Peterson just the last couple days um on YouTube again a sucin learned very measured account of the history of Gaza which as I may have mentioned before the Israeli sociologist baru kimmerling has called the world's largest concentration camp these people that committed the atrocities on October the 7th were born and grew up in the world's largest concentration camps where repeatedly they've been massacred and deprived and oppressed and none of this justifies it again but I'm telling you if you're going to move forward on this we have to be able to understand not just our own emotional reactions but also the emotions and the circumstances that fuel those emotions of the other side thanks Dad I I want to ask you about couple of things that you mentioned you mentioned anti-jewish and you mentioned concentration camps and I think many people who follow your work know that you are yourself a holocaust Survivor and your grandparents um died in awit were killed in owitz yes and so anti-semitism and concentration camps these are not words that are um distant from your life experience and I wonder if we could comment on the difference between anti-Semitism and criticizing the state of Israel and when those two might get conflated and when they're different how do we discern there are people that hate Jews just because they're Jews not because of what Jews did or didn't do but just because they're Jews just as there are people who hate blacks not because of what blacks did or didn't do there are people who hate Muslims not because of Muslims did or didn't do and these people will take any Jewish action or any black action or any Muslim action that can be criticized and they will use it as fuel for the hatred that they already Harbor Within thems El and Jews have been subject to that kind of anti-Semitism for a long time where the anti-jewish feelings had nothing to do with anything that Jews did and this there's a history of this going back many hundreds of years and even longer actually and that culminated in the most horrible event in history which is the mechanized scientifically planned organized attempt to eliminate the whole people of which my grandparents were victims and of which I myself as an infant almost was the victim as well there are some people like that and they any criticism of Israel as a fuel for their already embedded anti-jewish sentiments that's not what I see for the most part for the most part that I see that the people that criticize Israel do so with a lot of pain in their hearts they actually um want Justice and they want Justice for everybody and they criticize Israel not because he's Jewish but because of what it does and what it does has been called by recently by 2,000 Israeli and Jewish academics and rabbis and historians AP part hide what it does has been called by the former deputy chief of the Israel Defense staff similar to the situation of Jews in Nazi Germany this is an Israeli soldier who said that not an anti-semite and he said that just as the Nazi thugs could attack Jews with the impunity and even with the support of the police so can settlers in the occupied territories attack kill destroy Palestinian property um murder even children and when the Palestinians fight back the Army shows up to support the settlers and this was said by a former deputy head of the Israel Defense Forces so that a lot of people who are not in the least racist one way or the other have genuinely Come To Rule and lament and oppose the actions of the Israeli State and as a Jew I'm one of them and when a Jew speaks up now if if you're a pro Zionist who fully believes that jewishness is identifiable with Zionism in Israel then naturally you'll think that anybody criticized Israel is either an anti-semite or a self-hating Jew but that perception is a product of your belief that the jewishness is identified with Israel whereas if you look at it historically there were many Jews all along who criticize the Zionist movement and who pointed out the potential dangers and who warned what's going to happen and I might add that there are Israelis who are now protesting in the streets what Israel is doing in Gaza exactly and and and there were 500 Jews that were were arrested in Washington a few days ago for protesting and last night many many Jews gathered in Grand Central Station in New York and the New York Times did a story on it which is pretty remarkable to see and so look to sum this up it's such a painful situation and and I mean such suffering and recently Israel has suffered in a way that it hasn't suffered before and that's to be lamented and the people there need to be supported because they're having a hard time there are many Israeli homeless right now because of the threats and uh I know from Israeli friends of mine that Israeli Mental Health Services are overwhelmed that is true it also has to be acknowledged that when it comes to the scale of suffering import opposed by one party on the other there's barely any comparison historically speaking the number of deaths the imprisonments The Suffering The deprivation has been the prerogative of the stronger party I'm not speaking morally here I'm speaking practically I'm not saying to justify anything I'm saying do we want to move for forward to peace or do you just want to Harbor our emotions we're entitled to our emotions but when we're emotional and only emotional our perspective narrows it becomes defensive and we get cons we get consumed by self-defense and attack understandable that doesn't lead to peace what needs to leads to peace is a willingness to understand the experience of the other and for us to be guided by the parts of our brain that are adult and that happens in the mid fontal cortex where empathy Insight compassion self-awareness are modulated so we need to deal with our emotions not to re not to repress them not to reject them but also not led to not let them be the Guides of our actions especially when his emotions are conditioned by a view of history that for the most part excludes the experience of the other So speaking of Peace um let's talk political strategy right now because there are many people out there who wish to see peace who feel helpless to know know what to do and there is a huge movement calling for a ceasefire and there are several organizations that are mobilizing to encourage to protest in the streets encourage people to call their representatives so I wonder if you want to speak on that for a little bit well just as I said that October the 7th was unjustifiable so has everything that happened since then unjustifiable what Israel is doing right now in in Gaza has been called by Israeli Scholars and Jewish Scholars genocide by any definition I don't like using that word Actually I don't even agree with it because I I want to reserve genocide where when somebody decides to eliminate physically another people and that happened to the Jews in Europe what happens right but by International definition of genocide I'm not talking about my own personal definition but by International definition of genocide what is happening right now is genocide that's simply how it is what is the difference what is the difference because I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean any any large attack that kills a large number of civilians moves them out of their place um puts them under danger um by and large is considered genocide I see so without getting into the debate about genocide actually is let's not even use the word what's happening is a massive war crime and just as the events of October the 7th are not justifiable by anything that Israel did before although it's explainable it's not justifiable the two are not the same thing at the same time What Israel is doing right now is not in in any way justifiable it's not a response to what just happened it's what Israel has always done when there was much less provocation the killing of large number of Palestinians 20,000 civilians died in 1982 in a Lebanese War tens of thousands were killed in 1947 48 civilians deliberately these are not questionable sent uh historical facts so what's going on right now is not a response to October the 7th it's a continuation of what's been going on for 80 years now and I could give many examples so there needs to be a ceasefire right now there needs to be a ceasefire there needs to be negotiations for the release of the hostages and Hamas has asked and you tell me how this is unreasonable that Israel lets go the children and the women in Israeli jails how's that unreasonable I'm not here to support Hamas I don't like Hamas I don't like what they stand for I don't like what they do I don't like what they do to their own people but they have made a reasonable demand about exchange of hostages let that happen because those hostages that Hamas holds are innocent people just as much as thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails are innocent and they're not even charged with anything and they don't even go on trial but they're tortured and I've seen that with my own eyes when I was in the occupied territories last year so let there be some reason here so let there be a reasonable exchange of hostages let there be a ceasefire let this mass murderer stop 2,000 Palestinian children Israel's dropped more bombs within a few days on a small territory 5 miles by 25 miles then americ Americans dropped in a whole year in Afghanistan today the number is closer to 3,000 Palestinian children yeah who can possibly justify that who can believe that this is defensive no this is simply a continuation of what's going on for a long time it needs to stop and anybody of conscience Jewish non-jewish needs to demand that our politicians for once act on the principles that they say they believe in which is Justice and Peace So ceas Fire right now a reasonable resolution to the hostage issue yes the release of the Israeli hostages and yes the release of women and children held in Israeli jails um and then a process that finally recognizes that there are two people there we talk about the hamus charter does anybody ever talk about the liquid Charter the liquid being the leading political party of Netanyahu the liquid Charter says no two states east of the Jordan River so last night just concentrate on the unreasonableness of the one side without recognizing the utter rigid oppressive activity of the other side and again I've said this before for yes there are two sides to every story but they're not equal the side with the power has the responsibility and who's had the power Israel has the they say it has the world's fourth most powerful military that's after Russia China and the United States Israel is the one that has held the territories and has occupied them and has populated them ethnically cleansed them now for over 50 years is the one that has blockaded Gaza imposing conditions under which children grow up as [Music] prisoners so while there are two sides St story and people are suffering on both sides and that suffering and grief needs to be acknowledged politically speaking there's no equivalence here there's a side with overwhelming power power and aide that every once in a while as recently gives some horrible horrific response to what they have experienced again not to justify but are we going to move forward or are we simply going to repeat the traumatization and tragedy of the Decades that's the question that everybody has to confront that think before we wrap up this conversation um I just want to take a deep breath and we both can and maybe those watching can as well and I recognize that what I say is very difficult for people some people to hear and it's even painful and some people it might even seem traitorous here's what I can say Hannah I'm responsible for what I say and I make every effort to ground what I say in the facts as I understand them and as a former Zionist a youth leader and as a Jew and um as a human being I make every effort to research everything I say this is whether in my medical work or or or teachings or in the political realm that doesn't make me right but it does make mean that I've made every effort to understand understand every aspect of the situation um at the same time I know that emotions arise in response to all this I have my own emotions um I go from despair sometimes to rage sometimes to hatred and like you said I got to take a deep breath sometime so I'm responsible for what I say I'm responsible for how I say it when I speak with rage as I did with the family member yesterday they just feel attacked this brings up a lot of emotions I'm responsible for what I say I'm responsible for how I say it I'm not responsible for how people hear it and I'm not responsible how people interpret it that's on each and every one of us so let's all speak with as much information as we can reasonably gather let's all speak with as much compassion for everybody as we can possibly muster let's all speak with as much peace in our own Hearts as we can possibly find in this terrible terrible terrible situation and let's respect one another no matter what we believe and what we say but let's be responsible not just for how we speak but also for how we listen it's painful enough it's painful enough it's unbearably painful for a lot of us right now we need to really find spes in ourselves where there is peace and is compassion thanks Dad I think um it would be nice to end this conversation with a few more resources for people so you mentioned um several books and I wonder if you want to speak to a few journalistic is that is that a word journalistic Outlets Outlet you yeah so that the information that most people receive comes from the mainstream press and the mainstream media they're not unbiased if you look at the history of any War the Vietnam War the Iraq War um the Afghan War and the Israel paltin in Conflict the mainstream media always has a point of view that they push relentlessly which in general is always aligned with American foreign policy whatever that happens to be at the time so nobody could have found out the truth about the Vietnam War as it was going on by reading the New York Times not not until very late in the war same with the Iraq War where the American Press pushed this agenda of the weapons of mass destruction which a 5-year-old child could know was a complete concoction so don't just make up your mind based on what you see in the mainstream media take it in but consider other sources other sources include the books that I mentioned the Israeli journalist Amir Ras who's lived in the occupied territory for 30 years and has painstakingly reported the oppression that she Witnesses every day Gideon Levy who was on the editor Board of harats the Israel newspaper who has been magnificent over the decades in his courage and his willingness to tell the truth which at times has put his life in danger look at the YouTube videos of the his Israel historian Ilan papy p p PE whose books I mentioned look at the statements by Israeli soldiers on YouTube who refuse to refuse to serve any occupied territories because of their brutalities that they've witnessed or were forced to participate in online there are wonderful resources democracy Now Amy Goodman in her program has been absolutely Stellar in bringing in alternative Jewish and Israeli voices who speak a different truth than you read in the mainstream media and she's also allow invited Palestinian voice to speak I mentioned Norman felstein look up any of his Talks on YouTube check out my interviews on YouTube as an alternative next week should be online and big into you I did a couple of days ago and again the organization sand s andd spiritual and non Duality will sponsor an online Q&A with me next week sometime and I'll be speaking on this issue whenever I have an opportunity because nothing is more important to me I've already had cancellations I had a major Canadian University cancel a talk I was going to give on a totally different subject because of my views in Israel Palestine I'm quite willing to accept that that's part of the price you pay on speaking on this issue is you're going to be cancell other sources my son Aaron and his program the gry zone or push back or his substack always researching the truth and presenting it my son Daniel the older brother the oldest brother I should say Hanah he's had a couple of IG lives Daniel B mat I can only take my hat off because he speaks about the situation which such dis passion and such fairness and such compassion and such Clarity so a lot of people have really appreciated Daniel speaking on this issue um I believe Chris Hedges again his interview with Norman finlin um Hannah I also think you want to talk about resources to help people yeah both both sides and both and both sides need support right now people are human beings sides are suffering they need support so why don't you speak about that thank you yes that's right um there are two um political activism organizations that I follow I wanted to mention whose work I really respect right now Jewish voice for peace and if not now are both both Jewish lead organizations who are speaking out against what Israel is doing in Gaza um in addition to being voices for peace for all people in the region and then there are two organizations that um I'd invite you to join me in donating to and we'll leave the comments open so other people can put organizations um that they've they support in the comments so the first is the Palestinian children's Relief Fund or the pcrf they offer vital Medical Care and Aid um to gazen children and the second is an organization in Israel called dor Israel which is a um an organization that I used to be part of um in my in my youth um this is an offshoot of a organization or youth movement I grew up called habon drawer and currently um Educators uh support workers are offering um psychosocial supports and other practical very important care to Children Israeli children who were directly uh traumatized by um the Hamas attacks on September excuse me October 7th so that again that's Palestinian children children's Relief Fund and dorus Rail and all of these will put in the description of the video and lastly I'll just implore everyone who's watching who may feel compelled to comment um to voice your opinion and keep it respectful uh we we want people to have a discourse we don't want to limit the comments here and I've seen how um how much vital can get shared online so in line with what you were sharing dad about managing our reactions being responsible I invite everyone to be responsible with their words even if they disagree um thank you Han I'll only add that um I live in Canada where there's a group called independent Jewish voices um right IV so that's another organization let me just say finally that this is such a difficult discussion not just because of the emotions people have such different versions of history and people are bring up arguments about this peace agreement or that and so on I'm just ADV again advising you before you speak if you want to speak responsibly do check out other sources because the history you may believe in you may sincerely and genuinely hold but it may not be as accurate as you believe you really need to do your research on this one with that Hannah thank you very much for facilitating this um I'm glad to have [Music] finally have opportunity to address our particular social media audience um I know not all of you or many of you did not sign up to follow me because you wanted to hear my views in the mid Le you signed up because you might work on trauma healing Child Development and so on if you're not interested in this subject I don't want to impose it on you but at the same time personally this is not an isue that I could ever stay quiet about and um I encourage all of you to just see how you feel about all this one side or the other or indifferent and take responsibility for wherever you're at and allow us to have our own responses which really come from from the heart and from a real desire for justice for everyone one which all human beings deserve we're sending love and compassion and prayers for peace to everyone in Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank everyone in the world Jewish Muslim Arab Palestinian Christian anyone who may be directly or IND indirectly affected by what's going on right now we're grieving together and we're standing on the side of Peace So thank you Dad for this conversation and goodbye everyone

Channel: Dr Gabor Maté

Views: 963,842

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Id: SHDBw-wx6w0

Length: 37min 32sec (2252 seconds)

Published: Sun Oct 29 2023