- Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science
and science-based tools for everyday life. [upbeat music] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm
a Professor of Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at
Stanford School of Medicine. Today my guest is Dr. David Berson, Professor of Medical Science,
Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Brown University. Dr. Berson's laboratory is credited with discovering the cells in the eye that set your circadian rhythms. These are the so-called intrinsically photosensitive melanopsin cells. And while that's a mouthful, all you need to know for sake
of this introduction is that, those are the cells that
inform your brain and body about the time of day. Dr. Berson's laboratory has also made a number of other important discoveries about how we convert our
perceptions of the outside world into motor action. More personally, Dr. Berson
has been my go-to resource for all things neuroscience
for nearly two decades. I knew of his reputation
as a spectacular researcher for a long period of time. And then many years ago, I cold
called him out of the blue, I basically corralled him
into a long conversation over the phone after which
he invited me out to Brown and we've been discussing neuroscience and how the brain works and
the emerging new technologies and the emerging new
concepts in neuroscience for a very long time now. You're going to realize today why Dr. Berson is my go-to source. He has an exceptionally
clear and organized view of how the nervous system works. There are many many parts
of the nervous system, different nuclei and connections
and circuits and chemicals and so forth, but it takes
a special kind of person to be able to organize that
information into a structured and logical framework that
can allow us to make sense of how we function in
terms of what we feel, what we experience, how
we move through the world. Dr. Berson is truly one
of a kind in his ability to synthesize and organize and
communicate that information. And I give him credit
as one of my mentors, and one of the people that I respect most in the field of science and
medical science generally. Today Dr. Berson takes us on a journey from the periphery of the nervous system, meaning from the outside, deep into the nervous
system layer by layer, structure by structure, circuit by circuit making clear to us how each of these individual circuits work and how they work together as a whole. It's a really magnificent description that you simply cannot
get from any textbook, from any popular book and
frankly, as far as I know, from any podcast that
currently exists out there. So it's a real gift to
have this opportunity to learn from Dr. Berson. Again, I consider him my
mentor in the field of learning and teaching neuroscience, and I'm excited for you to learn from him. One thing is for certain,
by the end of this podcast, you will know far more about
how your nervous system works than the vast majority of people out there including many expert
biologists and neuroscientists. Before we begin, I'd like to
emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching
and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer
information about science, and science-related tools
to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the
sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink. I've been taking Athletic
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brought to us by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a zero sugar, grain-free, keto-friendly cereal. I don't follow a ketogenic diet. The way that I eat is basically geared toward feeling alert
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Huberman at checkout to get $5 off your order. Again, that's magicspoon.com/huberman and use the code Huberman to get $5 off. And now for my discussion with
Dr. David Berson, welcome. - Thank you.
- Yeah. - So nice to be here. - Great to have you. For more than 20 years
you've been my go-to source for all things, nervous
system how it works, how it's structured. So today I want to ask you
some questions about that. I think people would gain a lot
of insight into this machine that makes them think and
feel and see, et cetera. If you would, could
you tell us how we see? A photon of light enters
the eye, what happens? - Right. - How is it that I look
outside, I see a truck drive by, or I look on the wall I
see a photo of my dog, how does that work? - Right, so this is an
old question obviously. And clearly in the end, the reason you have a visual experience is that your brain is got
some pattern of activity that associates with the
input from the periphery. But you can have a visual experience with no input from the periphery as well. When you're dreaming, you're seeing things that aren't coming through your eyes. - Are those memories? - I would say in a sense they may reflect your visual experience they're not necessarily
specific visual memories, but of course they can be. But the point is, that
the experience of seeing is actually a brain phenomenon. But of course, under normal circumstances, we see the world because
we're looking at it and we're using our eyes to look at it. And fundamentally, when we're
looking at the exterior world, it's what the retina is
telling the brain that matters. So there are cells called ganglion cells, these are neurons that are the
key cells for communicating between eye and brain, the
eye is like the camera, it's detecting the initial image, doing some initial processing, and then that signal gets
sent back to the brain proper and of course, it's there
at the level of the cortex that we have this conscious
visual experience. There are many other places in the brain that get visual input as
well doing other things with that kind of information. - So I get a lot of
questions about color vision. If you would, could you explain how is it that we can perceive
reds and greens and blues and things of that sort. - Right, so the first thing
to understand about light, is that it's just a form of
electromagnetic radiation, it's vibrating, it's oscillating, but. - When you say it's
vibrating, it's oscillating, you mean that photons are actually moving? - Well in a sense, photons
they're certainly moving through space, we think
about photons as particles and that's one way of
thinking about light, but we can also think of it
as a wave like a radio wave, either way is acceptable. And the radio waves have frequencies like the frequencies
on the your radio dial, and certain frequencies in
the electromagnetic spectrum can be detected by neurons in the retina, those are the things we see, but there's still different
wavelengths within the light that can be seen by the eye. And those different wavelengths
are unpacked in a sense or decoded by the nervous system to lead to our experience of color. Essentially, different
wavelengths give us the sensation of different colors through the auspices of different neurons that are tuned to different wavelengths of light. - So when a photon, so
when a little bit of light hits my eye goes in, the photoreceptors convert
that into electrical signal? - Right. - How is it that a given photon of light gives me the perception eventually, leads the perception of red
versus green versus blue? - Right, so if you imagine
that in the first layer of the retina where this
transformation occurs from electromagnetic
radiation into neural signals that you have different
kinds of sensitive cells that are expressing, they're
making different molecules within themselves for this express purpose of absorbing photons
which is the first step in the process of seeing, now
it turns out that altogether, there are about five proteins like this that we need to think about
in the typical retina, but for seeing color
really it's three of them. So they're three different proteins, each absorbs light with a
different preferred frequency, and then the nervous system
keeps track of those signals compares and contrasts them
to extract some understanding of the wavelength composition of light. So you can see just by
looking at a landscape, or it must be late in the day because things are looking golden that's all a function of
our absorbing the light that's coming from the world and interpreting that with our brain because of the different
composition of the light that's reaching our eyes. - Is it fair to assume
that my perception of red is the same as your perception of red? - Well, that's a great question. - And that mine is better? I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. [laughs] - It's a great question, it's
a deep philosophical question. It's a question that really
probably can't even ultimately be answered by the usual
empirical scientific processes, 'cause it's really about
an individual's experience. What we can say is that
the biological mechanisms that we think are important
for seeing color for example, seem to be very highly similar from one individual to the next
whether it be human beings, or other animals. And so we think that the
physiological process looks very similar on the front end, but once you're at the level
of perception or understanding or experience, that's something
that's a little bit tougher to nail down with the sorts
of scientific approaches that we approach biological
vision let's say. - You mentioned that there
are five different cone types essentially, the cones being
the cells that absorb light of different wavelengths. I often wondered when I had my dog, what he saw and how his vision
differs from our vision. And certainly, there are
animals that can see things that we can't see. - Right? - What are some of the more
outrageous examples of that? - I've seen things. - And same things in the extreme. - Right. - Dogs I'm guessing see reds
more as oranges, is that right? 'Cause they don't have the
same array of of neurons that we have for seeing color. - Right, so the first thing is, it's not really five types of colons, there are really three types of colons. And if you look at the
way that color vision is thought to work, you can sort of see that it has to be three different signals. There are a couple of
other types of pigments. One is really mostly for dim light vision. When you're walking
around in a moonless night and you're seeing things
with very low light that's the rod cell that
uses its own pigment. And then there's another class of pigments we'll probably talk
about a little bit later, this melanopsin pigment. - I thought you were
referring to like ultraviolet and infrared and things like that. - Right, so in the case of a typical, well, let's put it this way. In human beings, most of
us have three cone types and we can see colors that stem from that. In most mammals including
your dog or your cat, there really are only two cone types and that limits the kind of
vision that they can have in the domain of wavelength
or color as you would say. So really, a dog sees the
world kind of like a particular kind of color blind human
might see the world, because instead of having
three channels to compare and contrast they only have two channels and that makes it much more
difficult to figure out exactly which wavelength you're looking at. - Do colorblind people
suffer much as a consequence of being colorblind? - Well, it's like so
many other disabilities. The world is built for people
of the most common type. So in some cases, the
expectation can be there that somebody can see something
that they won't be able to if they're missing one of
their cone types let's say. So in those moments, that
can be a real problem. If there's a lack of contrast
to their visual system, they will be blind to that. In general, it's a fairly
modest visual limitation as things go. For example, if not
being able to see acutely can be much more damaging, not being able to read
fine print for example. - Yeah, I suppose if I had to give up the ability to see certain colors or give up the ability to see clearly, I could certainly trade
out color for clarity. - Right, of course, color
is very meaningful to us as human beings, so we
would hate to give it up. But obviously, dogs and cats
and all kinds of other mammals do perfectly well in the world. - Yeah, because we take care of them. I spent most of my time
taking care of that dog. - He took care of me too. Let's talk about that odd photopigment. Photopigment of course being
the thing that absorbs light of a particular wavelength, and let's talk about these
specialized ganglion cells that communicate certain
types of information from eye to the brain
that are so important for so many things. What I'm referring to here of course is, your co-discovery of the so-called intrinsically photosensitive cells, the neurons in the eye that
do so many of the things that don't actually have
to do with perception, but have to do with important
biological functions. What I would love for you to do is explain to me why once I heard you say we have a bit of fly eye in our eye. - Yeah.
- And you showed this slide of a giant fly from a horror movie. - Yeah.
- Trying to attack this woman. - Yeah. - And maybe it was an eye also. So what does it mean that
we have a bit of a fly eye in our eye? - Yeah, so this last pigment
is a really peculiar one. One can think about it as really the initial
sensitive element in a system that's designed to tell your brain about how bright things are in your world. And the thing that's really
peculiar about this pigment, is that it's in the
wrong place in a sense. When you think about the
structure of the retina, you think about a layer cake essentially. You've got this thin membrane
at the back of your eye, but it's actually a stack of thin layers and the outermost of those layers is where these photoreceptors you were talking about
earlier are sitting. That's where the film of
your camera is essentially, that's where the photons do their magic with the photo pigments and
turn it into a neural signal. - I like that I've never really thought of the photoreceptors is
the film of the camera, but that makes sense. - Or like the sensitive chip
on CCD chip in your cell phone. It's the surface on which
the light pattern is imaged by the optics of the eye, and now you've got an array of sensors that's capturing that information and creating a bitmap essentially, but now it's in neural signals distributed across the
surface of the retina. So all of that was known to
be going on 150 years ago, a couple of types of
photoreceptors cones and rods. If you look a little bit more closely, three types of cones, that's
where the transformation from electromagnetic
radiation to neural signals was thought to take place. But it turns out that
this last photopigment is in the other end of the retina, the innermost part of the retina, that's where the so-called
ganglion cells are. Those are the cells
that talk to the brain, the ones that actually
can communicate directly what information comes to
them from the photoreceptors. And here you've got a case where actually, some of the output neurons that we didn't think had any business being directly sensitive to light were actually making this
photopigment, absorbing light, and converting that to neural signals and sending it to the brain. So that made it pretty
surprising and unexpected, but there are many surprising
things about these cells. - So, and what is the
relationship to the fly eye? - Right, so the link there is, that if you ask how the photopigment now communicates downstream from the initial absorption event to get to the electrical signal, that's a complex cellular process involves many chemical steps. And if you look at how
photoreceptors in our eyes work, you can see what that cascade
is, how that chain works. If you look in the eyes
of flies or other insects or other invertebrates, there's a very similar kind of chain. But the specifics of how the signals get from the absorption
event by the pigment to the electrical response that the nervous system can understand, are characteristically different between fuzzy furry creatures like us and insects for example like the fly. - I see. - So these funny extra photoreceptors that are in the wrong layer doing something completely different are actually using a chemical cascade that looks much more
like what you would see in a fly photoreceptor, than what you would see
in a human photoreceptor, a rod or a cone for example. So it sounds like it's a very
primitive aspect of biology that we maintain. - Exactly right, exactly. - And despite the fact that
dogs can't see as many colors as we can and cats can't see
as many colors as we can, we have all this extravagant
stuff for seeing color and then you got this other pigment sitting in the wrong not wrong, but in a different part of the eye sending processing light very differently. - Right. - And sending that
information into the brain. So, what do these cells do? Presumably, they're there for a reason. - They are, and the
interesting thing is that, one cell type like this
carrying one kind of signal which I would call a
brightness signal essentially, can do many things in the brain. - When you say brightness
signal you mean that, like right now, I have these
cells do I have these cells? Of course.
- You do. - I'm joking, I hope I
have these cells in my eye. And they're paying attention
to how bright it is overall, but they're not paying attention for instance to the edge of area or what else is going on in the room. - Right, so it's the difference between knowing what the
objects are on the table and knowing whether it's bright enough to be daylight right now. So why does your nervous
system need to know whether it's daylight right now? Well, one thing that needs to know that is your circadian clock. If you travel across time zones to Europe, now your internal clock
thinks it's California time, but the rotation of the earth is for different part of the planet. The rising and setting of the sun is not at all what your
body is anticipating. So you've got an internal representation of the rotation of the
earth in your own brain, that's your circadian
system it's keeping time. But now you've played a
trick on your nervous system, you put yourself in a different place where the sun is rising
at the quote wrong time. Well, that's not good for you, right? So you got to get back on track. One of the things this system does, is sends a oh, it's daylight
now signal to the brain, which compares with its internal clock. And if that's not right, it
tweaks the clock gradually until you get over your jet lag and you feel back on track again. - So the jet lag case
makes a lot of sense to me, but presumably, these elements
didn't evolve for jet lag. - Right. - So, what are they doing
on a day-to-day basis? - Right, well one way to
think about this is that, the clock that you have
in not just your brain, in all the cells, almost all
of the cells of your body, they're all oscillating, they're all. - They got local little clocks in them. - They got local little
clocks in themselves, they're all clocks. They need to be
synchronized appropriately, and the whole thing has to be
built in biological machinery. This is actually a beautiful
story about how gene expression can control gene expression,
and if you set it up right, you can set up a little thing
that just sort of hums along at a particular frequency. In our case it's humming
along at 24 hours, 'cause that's how our earth rotates and it's all built into our biology. So this is great, but the reality is, that the clock can only be so good. I mean, we're talking about biology here. It's not precision engineering, and so it can be a little bit off. - Well, also it's in our brain, so it doesn't have access to
any regular unerring signal? - Well, if in the absence of the rising and setting of the sun it doesn't, if you put someone in a cave, their biological clock will keep time to within a handful of
minutes of 24 hours, that's no problem for one day. But if this went on
without any correction, eventually you'd be out of phase and this is actually one of the things that blind patients often complain about. If they've got retinal
blindness is insomnia. [indistinct] Exactly, they're not synchronized,
their clock is there, but they're drifting out of phase because their clock's only good
to 24.2 hours or 23.8 hours little by little if they're drifting. So you need a synchronization signal. So even if you never across time zones and of course we didn't
back on the Savannah we stayed within walking
distance of where we were, you still need a synchronizer,
'cause otherwise, you have nothing to actually confirm when the rising and the
setting of the sun is, that's what you're trying
to synchronize yourself to. - I'm fascinated by the circadian clock and the fact that all
the cells of our body have essentially a
24-hour-ish clock in them. - Right. - We hear a lot about
these circadian rhythms and circadian clocks the
fact that we need light input from these special neurons
in order to set the clock. But I've never really heard it described how the clock itself works and how the clock signals
to all the rest of the body when the liver should be doing one thing and the stomach should be doing another. I know you've done some work on the clock. So if you would just
maybe briefly describe where the clock is, what it does, and some of the top contour
of how it tells the cells of the body what to do. - Right, so the first thing
to say is that, as you said, the clock is all over the place. Most of the tissues in
your body have clocks. - We probably have what,
millions of clocks in our body. - Yeah, I would say that's probably fair. If you have millions of cell types, you might have millions of clocks. The role of the central pacemaker
for the circadian system is to coordinate all of these. And there's a little nucleus, a little collection of
nerve cells in your brain it's called the suprachiasmatic
nucleus the SCN, and it is sitting in a funny place for the rest of the structures
in the nervous system that get direct retinal input. It's sitting in the hypothalamus, which you can think about as
sort of the great coordinator of drives and. - The source of all our
pleasures and all our problems. - Right.
- Or most our problems. - Yes, it really is. But it's sort of deep in your brain things that drive you to do things. If you're freezing cold, you
put on a coat, you shiver, all these things are
coordinated by hypothalamus. So this pathway that we're
talking about from the retina and from these peculiar cells that are encoding light intensity, are sending signals directly into a center that's surrounded by all of these centers that control autonomic nervous system and your hormonal systems. So this is a part of your visual system that doesn't really reach
the level of consciousness, it's not something you think about, it's happening under the
radar kind of all the time and the signal is working its way into this central clock
coordinating center. Now what happens then is
not that well understood, but it's clear that
this is a neural center that has the same ability to communicate with other parts of your brain
as any other neural center. And clearly, there are circuits
that involve connections between neurons that are conventional. But in addition, it's quite clear that there are also
sort of humeral effects that things are being oozing
out of the cells in the center and maybe into the circulation or just diffusing through
the brain to some extent that can also affect neurons elsewhere. But the hypothalamus uses everything to control the rest of the body. And that's true, the supracosmetic nucleus this circadian center as well, it can get its fingers into
the autonomic nervous system, the humeral system and of
course, up to the centers of the brain that organize
coordinated rational behavior. So if I understand correctly, we have this group of cells,
the suprachiasmatic nucleus, it's got a 24-hour rhythm, that rhythm is more or less matched to what's going on in our external world by the specialized set
of neurons in our eye. But then the master clock itself the SCN, releases things in the
blood humeral signals that go out various places in the body. And you said to the autonomic system which is regulating more or
less how alert or calm we are, as well as our thinking and our cognition. So I'd love to talk to you
about the autonomic part, presumably that's through melatonin, it's through adrenaline
how is it that this clock is impacting how the autonomic system, how alert or calm we feel? - Right, so there are pathways by which the suprachiasmatic
nucleus can access both the parasympathetic and
sympathetic nervous system. - Just so people know the
sympathetic nervous system is the one that tends
to make us more alert, and the parasympathetic nervous system is the portion of the
autonomic nervous system makes us feel more calm. - Right.
- In broadcasting. Right, to first approximation, right? So, this is both of these systems are within the grasp
of the circadian system through hypothalamic circuits. One of the circuits that will be I think, of particular interest
to some of your listeners is a pathway that involves
this sympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system the fight or flight system that is actually through
a very circuitous route innervating the pineal gland which is sitting in the
middle of your brain. - The so-called third eye. - Right, so this is. - We'll have to get back to
why it's called the third eye, because, yeah. - That's an interesting thing. - You can't call something
the third eye and just. - Just leave it there.
- Just leave it there. - Right.
- Right. - Anyway, this is the
major source of melatonin in your body. - So light comes in to my eye. - Yes. - Passed off to the
suprachiasmatic nucleus essentially, not the light itself, but the signal representing the light. - Sure. - Then the SCN, the
suprachiasmatic nucleus can impact the melatonin system. - Right.
- Via the pineal? - Right, the way this is seen is that, if you were to measure
your melatonin level over the course of the day, if you could do this hour by hour, you'd see that it's
really low during the day, very high at night. But if you get up in
the middle of the night and go to the bathroom and turn on the bright
full fluorescent light, your melatonin level is
slammed to the floor. Light is directly impacting
your hormonal levels through this mechanism
that we just described. So this is one of the routes by which light can act
on your hormonal status through pathways that
are completely beyond what you normally would
think about, right? You're thinking about the
things in the bathroom. Oh, there's the toothbrush,
there's the tube of toothpaste. But meanwhile, this other
system is just counting photons and saying oh wow, there's
a lot of photons right now let's shut down the melatonin release. - This is one of the main reasons
why I've encouraged people to avoid bright light exposure
in the middle of the night. Not just blue light, but
bright light of any wavelength, because there's this myth
out there that blue light because it's the optimal signal
for activating this pathway and shutting down melatonin, is the only wavelength of
light that can shut it down. But am I correct in thinking that if a light is bright enough. - Right. - It doesn't matter if it's
blue light, green light, purple light, even red light. - Right. - You're going to slam
melatonin down to the ground which is not a good thing to happen in the middle of the night. - Right.
- Correct? Right, yeah, any light
will affect the system to some extent, the blue light
is somewhat more effective, but don't fool yourself into thinking that if you use red light that means you're avoiding the effect, it's certainly still there. And certainly, if it's very bright, it'll be more effective
in driving the system than dim blue light would be. - Interesting, a lot of
people wear blue blockers. - Right. - And in a kind of odd twist
of misinformation out there, a lot of people wear blue blockers during the middle of the day, which basically makes no sense because during the middle of the day is when you want to get
a lot of bright light and including blue light
into your eyes, correct? - Absolutely, and not just for the reasons we've been talking about in
terms of circadian effects, there are major effects of light on mood. And seasonal affective
disorder apparently, is essentially a reflection of
this same system in reverse. If you're living in the northern climes and you're not getting that much light during the middle of
the winter in Stockholm, you might be prone to depression and phototherapy might be
just the ticket for you and that's because there's a
direct effect of light on mood, there's an example where if
you don't have enough light it's a problem. So I think you're exactly right. It's not about is like
good or bad for you, it's about what kind of light and when that makes the difference. Yeah, the general rule of
thumb that I've been living by, is to get as much bright light in my eyes ideally from sunlight
anytime I want to be alert. - Right. - And doing exactly the opposite
when I want to be asleep. - Yeah.
- We're getting drowsy. - And there are aspects
of this that spin out way beyond the conversation
we're having now to things like this. It turns out that the incidence of myopia. - Nearsightedness.
- Nearsightedness, right. Is strongly related to the amount of time that kids spend outdoors. - In what direction of effect? - The more they spend time outdoors, the less nearsightedness they have. - So this is not because
they're viewing things at a distance, or because they're getting a
lot of blue light, sunlight? - It's a great question,
it is not fully resolved what the epidemiological, what the basis of that
epidemiological finding is, one possibility is the amount of light which would make me think about this melanopsin system again. But it might very well be
a question of accommodation that is the process by which
you focus on near or far things if you're never outdoors,
everything is nearby. If you're outdoors, you're
focusing far, so this is. - Or unless you are on your phone? - Right, exactly. - There's a tremendous
amount of interest these days in watches and things that count steps. I'm beginning to realize that we should probably have a
device that can count photons during the day. - Right. - And can also count photons at night and tell us hey, you're
getting too many photons, you're going to shut down
your melatonin at night, or you're not getting enough photons, today you didn't get enough bright light, whether or not it's from
artificial light or from sunlight. I guess that, where would you put? I guess you put on the top of your head or you'd probably want it
someplace outward facing? - Right, probably what you
need is as many photons over as much of the retina as possible to recruit as much of
the system as possible. - In thinking about other effects of this non-image forming pathway that involves these special
cells in the eye and the SCN, you had a paper a few years ago looking at retinal input
to an area of the brain which has a fancy name the peri-habenular, but names don't necessarily matter that had some important effects on mood and other aspects of light. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what is the peri-habenular? - Oh, wow, so that's a fancy term, but I think the way to think about this, is a chunk of the brain that is sitting as part of a bigger chunk that's really the linker
between peripheral sensory input of all kinds, virtually all kinds, whether it's auditory
input or tactile input or visual input to the region
of your brain the cortex that allows you to
think about these things and make plans around
them and to integrate them and that kind of thing. So, we've known about a pathway that gets from the retina through
this sort of linker center which it's called the thalamus, and then. [indistinct] Exactly, but you want to
arrive at the destination. Right now you're at grand central and now you can do your thing 'cause you're up at the cortex. So this is the standard pattern. You have sensory input
coming from the periphery, you've got these peripheral elements that are doing the initial stages of. - The eye, the ear, the nose. - Your skin of your fingertips, right? The taste buds on your tongue they're taking this raw information in and they're doing some pre-processing maybe or the early circuits are. But eventually, most of these signals have to pass through the
gateway to the cortex which is the thalamus. And we've known for years,
for decades, many decades, what the major throughput
pathway from the retina to the cortex is and where it ends up. It ends up in the visual cortex. You pat the back of your head that's where the receiving center is for the main pathway
from retina to cortex. But wait a minute, there's more. There's this little side pathway that goes through a different part of that linking thalamus center. [indistinct] - Like a local train. - Yeah.
- From grand central to. - It's in a weird part of
the neighborhood, right? It's a completely different,
it's like a little trunk line that branches off and goes
out into the hinterlands and it's going to the
part of this linker center that's talking to a completely
different part of cortex way up front, frontal lobe, which is much more involved
in things like planning, or self-image or. - Self-image literally, how one. - Views oneself, do you
feel good about yourself, or what's your plan for next Thursday. It's a very high level center in the highest level
of your nervous system and this is the region
that is getting input from this pathway which is
mostly worked out in its function by [indistinct] Tara's Lab. I know you had him on the podcast. - We didn't talk about this path. - This pathway at all right. So Dale Fernandez and [indistinct] and the folks that work with them, were able to show that this
pathway doesn't just exist and get you to a weird place. But if you activate it at
kind of the wrong time of day, animals can become depressed. And if you silence it under
the right circumstances, then weird lighting cycles that
would normally make them act sort of depressed, no
longer have that effect. - So it sounds to me like
there's this pathway from eye to this unusual train
route through the structure we call the thalamus, then up to the front of the brain that relates to things of self-perception, kind of higher level functions. I find that really interesting, because most of what I think about when I think about these fancy, well, or these primitive rather, neurons that don't pay attention
to the shapes of things, but instead to brightness I think of well, it regulates melatonin
and circadian clock, mood, hunger, the really
kind of vegetative stuff if you will.
- Right. - And this is interesting
because I think a lot of people experience depression not just people that live in Scandinavia in the middle of winter, and
we are very much divorced from our normal interactions with light. It also makes me realize that these intrinsically
photosensitive cells that set the clock et cetera, are involved in a lot of things. They seem to regulate a dozen or more different basic functions. I want to ask you about a different aspect of the visual system now, which is the one that relates
to our sense of balance. So I love boats but I hate being on them. I love the ocean from shore, because I get incredibly
seasick, it's awful. I think I'm going to get seasick
if I think about it too much. [laughs] And once I went on a boat trip, I came back and I actually got
motion sick or wasn't seasick 'cause I was rafting. So there's a system that
somehow gets messed up. They always tell us if you're feeling sick to look at the horizon
et cetera, et cetera. - Right.
- So what is the link between our visual system
and our balance system and why does it make us nauseous sometimes when the world is moving in a way that we're not accustomed to? - Right. - I realize this is a big question, because it involves eye
movement, et cetera. - Right.
- But let's maybe just walk in at the simplest layers
of vision, vestibular, so-called balance system and then maybe we can piece
the system together for people so that they can understand, and then also we should
give them some tools for adjusting their nausea when their vestibular
system is out of whack. - Cool, so the first thing to think about is that the vestibular system
is designed to allow you to see how your or detect sense how you're moving in the
world, through the world. It's a funny one because
it's about your movement in relationship to the world in a sense, and yet it's sort of interoceptive in the sense that it is really in the end sensing the
movement of your own body. - Okay, so interoception we should probably delineate for people is when you're focusing
on your internal state as opposed to something outside you. - Right. - It's a gravity sensing system. - Well, it's partly a
gravity sensing system in the sense that gravity is
a force that's acting on you as if you were moving through the world in the opposite direction. - All right, now you got to explain that. You got to explain that to me. - Okay, so basically the idea is that, if we leave gravity inside,
we're just sitting in a car, in the passenger seat and the
driver hits the accelerator and you start moving
forward, you sense that. If your eyes were closed, you'd sense it. If your ears were plugged
in, your eyes would close, you'd still know it. - Yeah, many people take
off on the plane like this they're dreading the flight and they know when the
plane is taking off. - Sure, that's your
vestibular system talking, because anything that jostles you out of the current position
you're in right now will be detected by the
vestibular system pretty much. So this is a complicated system, but it's basically in your inner ear very close to where you're hearing. - That they put it there. And I don't know. - And I don't really know,
they're sort of derived. [indistinct] - Now I'm just kidding. To steal our friend Russ
Van Gelder's explanation, we weren't consulted the
design phase and no one. - That's a great [indistinct]. - But it's interesting it's in the ear. - Yeah.
- Right? - Yeah, it's deep in there and it's served by the same nerve actually that serves the hearing system. One way to think about it
is both the hearing system and this vestibular
self-motion sensing system are really detecting the signal in the same way they're hairy
cells and they're exciting. [indistinct] - Yeah, sort of they got
little cilia sticking up off the surfaces. And depending on which way you bend those, the cells will either
be inhibited or excited, they're not even neurons but
then they talk to neurons with a neuron-like process and off you go. Now you've got an auditory signal if you're sensing things
bouncing around in your cochlea which is.
- Sound waves. - Sympathetically the
bouncing of your eardrum which is symmetrically the
sound waves in the world. But in the case of the
vestibular apparatus, evolution has built a system that detects the motion of say
fluid going by those hairs. And if you put a sensor
like that in a tube that's fluid filled, now you've got a sensor
that will be activated when you rotate that tube around the axis that passes through the middle of it, those we're just listening won't be able. [indistinct] - I was thinking of it
as three hula hoops. - Right, three hoops. - One standing up, one
lying down on the ground. - Right. - The other one the other way. - Three directions, the people who fly will talk about roll pitch and
you all that kind of thing. So three axes of encoding
just like in the. [indistinct] - Sort of the yes, the no and then I always say
it's the puppy head tilt. - Yeah, that puppy tilt. - That's the other one. So the point is that, your brain is eventually
going to be able to unpack what these sensors are telling you about how you just rotated your head in very much the way that
the three types of cones we were talking about before are reading the incoming photons in the wavelength domain
differently, and if. - Red, green, blue. - Yeah, you can compare and
trust you get red, green, blue. So same basic idea if
you have three sensors and you array them properly, now you can tell if you're
rotating your head left or right, up or down that's the sensory signal coming back into your brain confirming that you've just
made a movement that you will. - But what about on the plane? Because when I'm on the plane, I'm completely stationary
the plane's moving. - Right. - But my head hasn't moved.
- Right. - So I'm just moving
forward, gravity is constant. - Exactly. - How do I know I'm accelerating? - So what's happening now is your brain is sensing the motion, and the brain is smart
enough also to ask itself, did I will that movement or
did that come from the outside? So now in terms of sort of understanding what the the vestibular signal means, it's got to be embedded in the context of what you tried to do, or what your other sensory
systems are telling you about what's happening. - I see, so it's very interesting. But it's not conscious or
at least if it's conscious, it's very not conscious, it's
definitely very fast, right? The moment that plane starts moving, I know that I didn't get up out
of my chair and run forward. - Right. - But I'm not really thinking about getting up out of my chair I just know. - I guess the way i
think about it is that, the nervous system is
quote, aware at many levels when it gets all the way up to the cortex and we're thinking about it, you're talking about it, that's cortical. But the lower levels of the brain that don't require you to
actually actively think about it they're just doing their thing
are also made aware, right? A lot of this is happening
under the surface of what you're thinking,
these are reflexes. - Okay, so we've got this
gravity sensing system? - Right. - I'm nodding for those that are listening for a yes movement of the head, a no movement of the head
or the tilting of the head from side to side.
- Right. - And then you said that
knowledge about whether or not activation of that system
comes from my own movements, or something acting upon
me like the plane moving. - Right. - Has to be combined with other signals. And so, how is the visual information or information about the visual world combined with balance information? - Right, so yeah. I guess maybe the best way to think about how these two systems work together, is to think about what
happens when you suddenly rotate your head to the left. When you suddenly rotate
your head to the left, your eyes are actually
rotating to the right. Automatically, you do
this in complete darkness. If you had an infrared
camera and watched yourself in complete darkness,
you can't see anything. Rotating your head to the left, your eyes would rotate to the right. That's your vestibular system saying, I'm going to try to compensate
for the head rotation. So my eyes are still
looking in the same place. Why is that useful, well,
if it's always doing that, then the image of the world on your retina will be pretty stable most of the time and that actually helps vision. - Have they built this into
cameras for image stabilization 'cause when I move, when I
take a picture with my phone, it's blurry, it's not clear? - Well actually, you might
want to get a better phone, because now what they have is
software in the better apps that will do a kind of
image stabilization post-hoc by doing a registration of the images that are bouncing around, they say the edge of the house was here, so let's get that aligned
in each of your images. So you may not be aware if
you're using a good new phone that if you walk around a
landscape and hold your phone, that there's all this image
stabilization going on. But it's built into standard
cinematic technology now, because if we tried to
do a handheld camera, things would be bouncing around, things would be unwatchable, you wouldn't be able to really understand what's going on in the scene. So the brain works really hard to mostly stabilize the image
of the world on your retina and of course you're
moving through the world so you can't stabilize everything. But the more you can
stabilize most of the time, the better you can see. And that's why when we're scanning a scene looking around at things, we're making very rapid eye movements for very short periods of
time and then we just rest, but we're not the only ones that do that. If you ever watch a hummingbird, it does exactly the same
thing at a feeder, right? [indistinct] It is with its body. It's going to make a quick movement, and then it's going to be stable. And when you watch a pigeon
walking on the sidewalk, it does this funny head bobbing thing. But what it's really doing, is racking its head back on its neck while its body goes forward so that the image of the
visual world stays static. - Is that why they're doing it? - Yes, and you've seen
the funny chicken videos on YouTube, right? - You take a chicken move it up and down the head stays in one place,
it's all the same thing. All of these animals are trying hard to keep the image of the
world stable on their retina as much of the time as they possibly can. And then when they've got
to move, make it fast, make it quick and then stabilize again. - That's why the pigeons
have their head back? - It is, yeah. - Wow.
- Yeah. - I just need to pause there for a second and digest that, amazing. In case people aren't. Well, there's no reason
why people would know what we're doing here, but essentially, what we're doing is we're
building up from sensory light onto the eye, make
color to what the brain does with the integration of
that circadian clock, melatonin, et cetera. And now what we're doing is we're talking about
multi-sensory or multimodal combining one sense vision
with another sense balance. - Right. - And it turns out that pigeons know more about this than I do, because pigeons know
to keep their head back as they walk forward.
- Right. - All right, so that gets us to this issue of motion sickness.
- Right. - And you don't have to go out on a boat. Anytime I go to New York, I sit in an Uber or in a cab in the back. And if I'm looking at my phone
while the car is driving, I feel nauseous by time I
arrive at my destination. - Right. - I always try and look out
the front of the windshield, because I'm told that helps
but it's a little tiny window. - Right. - And I end up feeling slightly
less sick if I do that. So what's going on with the
vision and the balance system that causes a kind of a nausea? And actually, if I keep
talking about this. [indistinct] [laughs] I don't throw up easily, but
for some reason motion sickness is a real thing for me. - It's a problem for a lot of people. I think the fundamental problem typically, when you get motion sick is what they call visual
vestibular conflict. That is, you have two sensory systems that are talking to your brain about how you're moving through the world. And as long as they agree you're fine. So if you're driving, your body senses that
you're moving forward. Your vestibular system is picking up this acceleration of the car, and your visual system is
seeing the consequences of forward motion in the
sweeping of the scene past you. Everything is honky-dory,
right, no problem. But when you are headed forward but you're looking at your cell phone, what is your retina seeing? Your retina is seeing the
stable image of the screen. There's absolutely no motion in that. - Or the motion is just or some
other emotion like a movie. - If you're playing a game
or you're watching a video, a football game, the motion is uncoupled with what's actually
happening to your body. Your brain doesn't like that, your brain likes everything to be aligned. And if it's not, it's
going to complain to you. - By making me feel nauseous. - By making you feel nauseous and maybe you'll change your behavior. So you're getting.
- I'm getting punished. - Yeah, for setting it up. [indistinct] - Right.
- By the vestibular? - You'll learn.
- Visuals. [laughs] In time, I love it. I love the idea of reward signals and we've done a lot of
discussion about this on this podcast of things like
dopamine reward and things, but also punishment signals
and I love this example. Well, maybe marching a little bit further along this pathway, visual input is combined
with balance input. Where does that occur, and maybe 'cause I have some
hint of where it occurs. You could tell us a little bit about this kind of
mysterious little mini-brain that they call the cerebellum.
- Cerebellum, yeah. So the way I tried to describe
the cerebellum to my students is that, it serves sort of like the air traffic control system
functions in air travel. So that it's a system
that's very complicated and it's really dependent
on great information. So it's taking in information about everything that's
happening everywhere not only through your sensory systems, but it's listening into
all the little centers elsewhere in your brain that are computing what
you're going to be doing next and so forth. So it's just ravenous for
that kind of information. - So it really is like
a little mini-brain. - It is, it's got access
to all those signals. and it really has an
important role in coordinating and shaping movements, but
if you suddenly eliminated the air traffic control system, planes could still take off and land but you might have some unhappy
accidents in the process. So the cerebellum is kind of like that. It's not that you would be paralyzed if your cerebellum was gone because you still have motor neurons, you still have ways to
talk to your muscles, you still have reflex centers, and it's not like you
would have any sensory laws because you still have your cortex getting all of those beautiful signals that you can think about, but you wouldn't be coordinating
things so well anymore. The timing between input
and output might be off. Or if you were trying to
practice a new athletic move like an overhead serve in tennis, you'd be just terrible at learning. All the sequences of muscle movements and the feedback from
your sensory apparatus that would let you really
hit that ball exactly where you wanted to
after the nth rep, right? Now 1000th rep or something
you get much better at it. So the cerebellum is all involved in things like motor learning
and refining the precisions of movement so that they
get you where you want to go if you reach for a glass of champagne that you don't knock
it over or stop short. [indistinct] - People who have selective
damage to the cerebellum. - Absolutely.
- And I'm familiar with. Well, Korsakoff's is different, right? Isn't that a B vitamin
deficiency in chronic alcoholics? - Right.
- And they tend to walk kind of bow-legged and they
can't coordinate their movements. That has some that not memory
bodies but also a cerebellum? - I'm not sure about the
cerebellar involvement there. But the typical thing would be a patient who has a cerebral or stroke
or a tumor for example, might be not that steady on their feet if the dynamics of the
situation you're standing on a street car with no
handle pull to hold on to, they might not be as good at adjusting all the little movements of the car. There's a kind of tremor that can occur as they're reaching for things, because they reach a little too far and then they over correct and
come back, things like that. So it's very common neurological
phenomenon actually. Cerebellar ataxia is what
the neurologists call it, and it can happen not just
with cerebellar damage, but damage to the tracts
that feed the information into the cerebellum. - Right, it is the private structure. - Exactly, or output from the cerebellum. - And so, the cerebellum
is where a lot of visual and balance information is combined. - In a very key place in the cerebellum, which it's really one of the oldest parts. - In terms of flocculus.
- The flocculus, right. It's a critical place in
the cerebellum where visual and vestibular information comes together recording just the kinds of
movements we were talking about. This image stabilizing network
it's all happening there. And there's learning
happening there as well. So that if your vestibular apparatus is a little bit damaged somehow, your visual system is actually
talking to your cerebellum saying there's a problem
here, there's an error, and your cerebellum is
learning to do better by increasing the output
of the vestibular system to compensate for whatever that loss was. So it's a little error correction system that's sort of typical
of a cerebellar function and it can happen in many,
many different domains. This is just one of the domains
of sensory motor integration that takes place there. - So I should stay off
my phone in the Ubers. if I'm on a boat, I
should essentially look and as much as possible act
as if I'm driving the machine. - Right.
- That'd be weird if I was in the passenger seat pretending I was driving the machine. But i do always feel better if I'm sitting in the
front seat passenger. - Right, so more of the
visual world that you can see as if you were actually
the one doing the motion I would think. - Let's stay in the inner ear for a minute as we continue to march
around the nervous system. When you take off in the
plane or when you land or sometimes in the middle of there, your ears get clogged or at
least my ears get clogged, that's because of pressure
buildup in the various tubes of the inner ear, et
cetera, we'll get into this. But years ago, our good
friend Harvey Karten, is a another world-class neuroanatomist gave a lecture and talked
about how plugging your nose and blowing out versus plugging
your nose and sucking in should be done at different times depending on whether or not
you're taking off or landing. And I always see people
trying to unpop their ears. - Right.
- And when you do scuba diving you learn how to do this
without necessarily I can do it by just kind of moving my jaw now 'cause I've done a little bit of diving. But what's the story there? We don't have to get
into all the differences in atmospheric pressure, et cetera, but if I'm taking off
and my ears are plugged, I've recently ascended, plane
take off, my ears are plugged, do I plug my nose and blow out, or do I plug my nose and suck in? - Right, so the basic idea is that, if your ears feel bad because
you're going into an area of higher pressure, so if
they pressurize the cabin more than the pressure that
you have on the surface of the planet, your
eardrums will be bending in and they don't like that. If you push them more
they'll hurt even more. - It's a good description
that the pressure goes up then they're going to bend in. - Bend in and then reverse would be true if you go into an area of low pressure. So if you knew you started
to drive up the mountain side the pressure's getting
lower and lower outside, now the air behind your
eardrum is ballooning out. - Yep.
- Right? So it's just a question of are you trying to get more
pressure or less pressure behind the eardrum and there's
a little tube that does that and comes down into
back your throat there. And if you force pressure up that tube, you're going to be
putting more air pressure into the compartment. - To counter it. - If it's not enough and if you're sucking you're going the other way. In reality, I think as long
as you open the passageway, I think the pressure differential is going to solve your problem. So I think you could actually blow in when you're not supposed to. - Okay, so you could just hold
your nose and blow air out, or hold your nose and suck in the. - Right.
- Effect either way is fine? - I think so. - Excellent, I just won
$100 from Harvey Karten. [laughs] - Thank you very much, this is a lot. Harvey and I used to teach
neuroanatomy together and I was like I don't think it matters, but thank you very much,
I'll split that with you. - Okay. [laughs] - This is important stuff. But it's true you hear this. So it doesn't matter either way. - I'm no expert in this area. - Don't worry.
- Don't quote me. - He's not going to, well,
I'm going to quote you. But, okay, so we've talked
about the inner ear, we've talked about the cerebellum. I want to talk about an area of the brain that is rarely discussed
which is the midbrain. - Yeah. - And for those that don't know, the midbrain is an area
beneath the cortex. I guess we never really defined cortex was kind of the outer layers
or are the outer layers of the at least mammalian
brain or human brain. But the midbrain is super interesting, because it controls a
lot of unconscious stuff, reflexes, et cetera. And then there's this phenomenon
even called blind sight. So could you please tell
us about the midbrain about what it does, and
what in the world is sight? - Yeah, so there's a lot of pieces there. I think the first thing to say is, if you imagine the nervous
system in your mind's eye, you see this big honking brain and then there's this little wand that dangles down into your
vertical column the spinal cord and that's kind of your visual impression. What you have to imagine is
starting in the spinal cord and working your way up into
this big magnificent brain and what you would do
as you enter the skull, is get into a little place
where the spinal cord kind of thickens out. It still has that sort of long,
skinny trunk-like feeling. - It's more like a
paddle or a spoon shape. - Right, it starts to
spread out a little bit and that's 'cause your evolutionists packed more interesting goodies in there for processing information
and generating movement. So beyond that is this tween
brain we were talking about. This linker brain with
diencephalon really means the between brain. - Oh, I thought you said tween. - Well, it is, yes.
- No, no, no, between. Between.
- Between. [indistinct]
- You said tween. - Yeah, it's the between,
it's the between brain is what the name means. It's the linker from the
spinal cord in the periphery up to these grand centers of the cortex. But this midbrain you're
talking about is the last bit of this enlarged sort of spinal
cordy thing in your skull, which is really the brain
stem is what we call it. The last bit of that before
you get to this relay up to the cortex is the midbrain. And there's a really
important visual center there, it's called the superior colliculus. There's a similar center in the brains of other vertebrate animals a
frog for example or a lizard, would have this is called
the optic tectum there but it's a center, then in
these non-mammalian vertebrates, is really the main visual center. They don't really have what
we would call a visual cortex although there's something
sort of like that. But this is where most of the action is in terms of interpreting visual input and organizing behavior around that. You can sort of think about this region of the brain stem as a reflex center that can reorient the
animal's gaze or body or maybe even attention to
particular regions of space out there around the animal and that could be for
all kinds of reasons. It might be a predator just
showed up in one corner of the forest and you pick that up and you're trying to avoid it. - Or just any movement.
- Any movement, right? It might be that suddenly
something splats on the page when you're reading a novel and your eye reflexively looks at it. You don't have to think
about that, that's a reflex. - What if you throw me a ball
but I'm not expecting it? - Right.
- And I just reach up try and grab it touch it or not. Is that handled by the midbrain? - Well, that's probably not the midbrain although by itself, because
it's going to involve all these limb movements, this movement of your arm and body. - What about ducking if something's suddenly
thrown in your head? - Sure, right, things like that will certainly have a brainstem component, a midbrain component,
something looms and you duck. It may not be the superior colliculus we're talking about now, it might be another part
of the visual midbrain. But these are centers that emerged early in the evolution of brains like ours to handle complicated visual events that have significance for the animal in terms of space, where is it in space? And in fact, this same center actually gets input from all
kinds of other sensory systems that take information
from the external world from particular locations and where you might want to
either avoid or approach things according to their significance to you. So you get input from the touch system, you get input from the auditory system. I work for a while in rattlesnakes, they get input from a
part of their warm sensors on their face, they're in
these little pits on the face. - To work on baby rattlesnakes, right? - They were adults. - Oh, I wasn't trying
to diminish the danger. I thought for some reason
they were little ones. - No.
- Why in the world would you work on rattlesnakes? - Well, because they have a version of an extra receptive sensory system that is they're looking out into the world using a completely
different set of sensors. They're using the same sensors that would feel the warmth on your face if you stood in front of a bonfire. Except, evolution has given them this very nice specialized system that lets them image where
the heat's coming from. You can sort of do that anyway, right? If you walk around the fire, you can feel where the
fire is from the heat hitting your face. - Is that the primary way
in which they detect prey? - It's one of one of the major ways. And in fact, they use vision as well and they bring these two systems together in the same place in this tectum regions brain stem, midbrain. - What's the tongue jutting
about when the snakes? - That I don't know. That may be old factory, they're maybe. - They're sniffing the
air with their tongue? - Yeah, there may be, 'cause. - On our drive you told me that
flies actually taste things with their feet.
- They do, yeah. - That's so weird. - Yeah, they have taste receptors
and lots of funny places. I want to pause here just for one second before we get back into the midbrain. I think what's so interesting
in all seriousness about taste receptors
on feet, heat sensors, tongues shutting out of snakes and vision and all this integration is that, it really speaks to the fact
that all these sensory neurons are trying to gather information
and stuff it into a system that can make meaningful
decisions and actions. And that it really doesn't
matter whether or not it's coming from eyes or ears
or nose or bottoms of feet, because in the end, it's
just electricity flowing in. And so it sounds like it's
placed on each animal, it always feels weird
to call fly an animal. But they are creatures, they are animals. It's placed in different
locations on different animals depending on the particular
needs of that animal. - Right, but how much more powerful if the nervous systems
can also cross-correlate across sensory systems? So if you've got a weak signal
from one sensory system, you're not quite sure
there's something there. And a weak signal from
an another sensory system that's telling you the same locations is a little bit interesting. There might be something there if you've got those two together
you've got corroboration. Your brain now says it's much more likely that that's going to be something
worth paying attention to. - Right, so maybe I'm feeling some heat on one side of my face and I also smell something
baking in the oven. - Right.
- So now there's, it's neither is particularly
strong, but as you said, there's some corroboration. - Right.
And that corroboration is occurring in the midbrain. - Right, and then if you
throw things into conflict, now the brain is confused and that may be where your
emotion sickness comes from. So it is great to have, as a brain, it's great to have as many
sources of information as you can have, just like if you're a spy or a journalist, you don't
want as much information as you can get about what's out there, but if things conflict,
that's problematic, right? Your sources are giving
you different information about what's going on. Now you've got a problem on
your hands, what do you publish? - The midbrain is so fascinating. I don't want to eject us from the midbrain and go back to the vestibular system, but I do have a question
that I forgot to ask about the vestibular system which is, why is it that for many
people including me, despite my motion sickness in cabs, that there's a sense of pleasure in moving through space
and getting tilted relative to the gravitational pull of the earth? For me growing up it was skateboarding, but people like to corner
in cars, corner on bikes, maybe for some people it's
done running or dance. But what is it about moving through space and getting tilted a lot
of surfers around here. Getting tilted that can tap into some of the pleasure centers. Do we have any idea why
that would feel like? - I have no clue. - Is there dopaminergic
input to this system? - Well, the dopaminergic
system gets a lot of places. It's pretty much to some
extent everywhere in the cortex a lot more in the frontal lobe of course, but that's just for starters. There's basically dopaminergic
innervation most places in the central nervous system. So there's the potential for
dopamine urging involvement but I really have no clue
about the tilting phenomenon. - People pay money to
go on roller coasters. - Right, well, I think that
may be as much about the thrill as anything.
- Sure. And the falling reflex is
very robust in all of us when the visual world's going up very fast it usually means that we're falling. - Right.
- But some people like that, some people don't.
- Right. And kids tolerate a lot more
sort of vestibular craziness spinning around until they've dropped. - And I've friends, it always
you worries me a little bit that they throw their kids. I'm not recommending anyone do this. When they're little like throwing the kids really far back and forth,
some kids seem to love it. - Yeah, yeah, our son loved
being shaken up and down very vigorously, that's the only thing that would calm him down sometimes. - Interesting, yeah, so I'm guessing we can guess that maybe
there's some activation of the reward systems from.
- Yeah. - Being moving through space. - Well, if you think
about how rewarding it is to be able to move through space and how unhappy people
are who are used to that who suddenly aren't able to do that, there is a sense of agency, right? If you can choose to move
through the world and to tilt, that's not only you're
moving through the world, but you're doing it with a
certain amount of finesse, maybe that's what it is. You can feel like you're the
master of your own movement in a way that you wouldn't
if you're going straight. I'm just blowing smoke here, right? - Yeah, well, we can
speculate, that's fine. I couldn't help but ask the question. Okay, so if we move ourselves pun intended back into the midbrain, the midbrain is combining
all these different signals for reflexive action. At what point does this
become deliberate action? Because if I look at something
I want and I want to pursue it, I'm going to go toward it and many times that's
a deliberate decision. - Right, so this gets
very slippery I think, because what you have to try to imagine is all these different parts of the brain working on the problem of staying alive and surviving in the world, they're working on the
problem simultaneously, and there's not one right
answer how to do that. But one way to think about it is that, you have high levels
of your nervous system that are very well designed to override an otherwise automatic
movement if it's inappropriate. So if you imagine you've been
invited to tea with the queen and she hands you very fancy
Wedgewood teacup very thin. - Wedgewood teacup? - Yes, with very hot tea in it
and you're burning your hand, you probably will try to find
a way to put that back down on the saucer rather than
just dropping it on the floor because you're with the queen. You're trying to be appropriate to that. So you have ways of reining
in automatic behaviors if they're going to be maladaptive. But you also want the
reflex to work quickly if it's the only thing
that's going to save you. The looming object coming at your head, you don't have time to think about that. So this is the interplay in these hierarchically organized centers of the nervous system at the lowest level. You've got the automatic
sensors and centers and reflex arcs that will keep you safe even if you don't have
time to think about it, and then you've got the
higher center saying, well, maybe we could do this as well or maybe we shouldn't
do that at all, right? So you have all these different levels operating simultaneously and you need bi-directional communication between high-level, cognitive centers, decision-making on the one hand, and these low-level very
helpful reflexive centers, but they're a little bit
rigid, a little hard-wired so they need some nuance. So they're both of these
things are operating in tandem in real time, all the time in our brains and sometimes we listen
more to one than the other. You've heard people in sports
talking about messing up at the play 'cause they over thought it. Thinking too hard about it. That's partly you've already
trained your cerebellum how to hit a fastball
right down the middle. - Right, and if you start looking for something new or different, you're going to mess up
your reflexive swing. - Right, if you're trying to think about the physics of the
ball as it's coming at you, you've already missed, right? Because you're not using
your, all those reps have built a kind of knowledge
is what you want to rely on when you don't have enough
time to contemplate. - This is important and a great segue for what I'd like to discuss next which is the basal ganglia. This really interesting
of the area of the brain that's involved in go-type commands and behaviors instructing us to do things and no-go preventing us from doing things. Because so much of motor
learning and skill execution and not saying the wrong thing or sitting still in class or as you use with the
tea with the queen example feeling discomfort involves
suppressing behavior and sometimes it's activating behavior. - Right. - A tremendous amount of online attention is devoted to trying to
get people motivated. This isn't the main focus of our podcast. We touch on some of the
underlying neural circuits of motivation dopamine and so forth. But so much of what people
struggle with out there are elements around
failure to pay attention. - Right. - Or challenges in paying attention which is essentially like
putting the blinders on and they're getting a soda
straw view of the world and maintaining that for a about of work or something of that sort and
trying to get into action. So of course, this is carried
out by many neural circuits not just the basal ganglia. But what are the basal ganglia, and what are their primary
roles in controlling go type behavior and no-go type behavior? - Yeah, so the basal
ganglia are sitting deep in what you would call the forebrains or the highest levels of the brain. They are sort of cousins
to the cerebral cortex which we talked about as
sort of the highest level of your brain, the thing
you're thinking with. - The cerebral cortex
being the refined cousins and then you've got the.
- Right. - The brute, yeah.
- Yeah. That's probably totally unfair, but. - That's right, I like the basal ganglia. I can relate to the
brutish parts of the brain. A little bit of hypothalamus, a little bit of basal ganglia, sure. - We need it all, we need it all. And this area of the brain
has gotten a lot bigger as the cortex has gotten bigger and it's deeply intertwined
with cortical function. The cortex can't really
do what it needs to do without the help of the
basal ganglia and vice versa. So they're really intertwined. And in a way you can think
about this logically is saying, if you have the ability
to withhold behavior or to execute it, how do
you decide which to do? Well, the cortex is going to
have to do that thinking for you. You have to be looking
at all the contingencies of your situation to decide
is this a crazy move, or is this a really smart
investment right now or what? - I don't want to go out
for a run in the morning, but I'm going to make
myself go out for a run, or I'm having a great time out on a run and I know I need to get back but I kind of want to go another mile. - I mean, another great example is that, the marshmallow test for the little kids. They can get two
marshmallows if they hold off just 30 seconds initially,
they can have one right away. But if they can wait 30
seconds, they got two. So that's the no go because
their cortex is saying, I would really like to have
two more than having one. But they're not going to get the two unless they can not reach for the one. So they've got to hold off the action and that has to result
from a cognitive process. So the cortex is involved
in this in a major way. - Yeah, as I recall in that experiment, the kids used a variety of tools. Some would distract themselves. I particularly related to the kid that would just put himself
right next to the marshmallows and then some of the
kids covered their eyes, some of them would count or sing. Yeah, so that's all very cortical, right? Coming up with a novel strategy, simple example that we're using here. But of course, this is at
play anytime someone decides they want to go watch
a motivational speech or something just a Steve
Jobs commencement speech just to get motivated
to engage in their day. - Should I take this new job? It's got great benefits, but it's in a lousy part of the country. - Why do you think that some
people have a harder time running these go no-go circuits and other people seem to have
very low activation energy we would say, they could
just, they have a task, they just lean into the task.
- Right. - Whereas some people
getting into task completion or things of that sort is
very challenging for them? - Yeah, I think it's really just another, it's a special case of a
very general phenomenon which is brains are complicated. And the brains we have
are the result of genetics and experience, and my genes
are different from your genes and my experiences are
different from your experiences. So the things that would
be easy or hard for us won't necessarily be aligned,
they might just happen to be just because they are,
but the point is that, you're dealt a certain set of cards, you have certain set of
genes, you are handed a brain, you don't choose your
brain it's handed to you. Then there's all this
stuff you can do with it. You can learn to have new
skills or to act differently or to show more restraint
which is kind of relevant to what we're talking about here. Or maybe show less restraint if your problem is
you're so buttoned down, you never have any fun in life and you should loosen up a little bit. - Thank you, I appreciate that. - Yeah.
- Yeah. [laughs] David's always encouraging me to have a little more fun in life. [laughs] So basil ganglia they're
kind of the disciplinarian or they're sort of the instructor
conductor of sorts, right? Go, no-go, you be quiet, you start now. - I wish I knew more about
the basal ganglia than I do. My sense is that, this system is key for implementing the plans that
get cooked up in the cortex, but they also influence the plans that the cortex is dishing out because this is a major source
of information to the cortex. So it becomes almost
impossible to figure out where the computation
begins and where it ends and who's doing what because these things are all interacting in a complex network, and it's all of it. It's the whole network,
it's not one is the leader and the other is the follower. - Right, of course, yeah,
these are all the structures that we're discussing
are working in parallel. - Right. - And there's a lot of changing crosstalk. I have this somewhat sick habit David. Every day I try and do 21 no-gos. So if I want to reach for my phone, I try and not do it just to
see if I can prevent myself from engaging in that
behavior, if it was reflexive, if it's something I want
to do a deliberate choice, then I certainly allow myself to do it. - Right. - I don't tend to have too
much trouble with motivation with go type functions,
mostly because I'm so busy that I'd wish I had more time
for more goes so to speak. But do you think these circuits have genuine plasticity in them? - Absolutely, everybody
knows how they've learned over time to wait for the
two marshmallows, right? You don't have to have instant
gratification all the time. You're willing to do a job sometimes it isn't your favorite job because it comes with the territory and you want the salary that
comes at the end of the week or the end of the month, right? So we can defer gratification. We can choose not to say the thing that we know is going
to inflame our partner and create a meltdown for the next week. We learn this control, but I think these are
skills like any other you can get better at
them if you practice them. So I think you're choosing
to do that to spontaneously, is kind of a mental
practice, it's a discipline, it's a way of building a
skill that you want to have. - Yeah, I find it to be something that when I engage in
a no-go type situation, then the next time and the next time that I find myself about
to move reflexively, there's a little gap in consciousness that I can make a decision whether or not this is really the best use of my time. Because sometimes I wonder
whether or not all this business around attention certainly
there's the case of ADHD and clinical diagnosed ADHD. But all the issue around
focus and attention is really that people just
have not really learned how to short circuit a reflex. And so much of what makes us
different than rattlesnakes, or well, actually they
could be deliberate, but from the other animals and is our ability to suppress reflex. - Yeah, well, that's the cortex. Or let's say the forebrain. Cortex and basal ganglia
are working together sitting on top of this lizard brain that's giving you all these
great adaptive reflexes that help you survive. You just hope you don't
get the surprising case where the thing that your
reflex is telling you is actually exactly the wrong thing and you make a mistake, right? [indistinct] Right, so that's what the cortex is for. It's adding nuance and
context and experience, past association and in
human beings obviously, learning from others
through communication. - Well, I was, you went right to it and it was where I was going to go. So let's talk about the cortex. We've worked our way up
the so-called neuraxis as the aficionados will
know, so we're in the cortex. This is the seat of our
higher consciousness, self-image, planning and action. But as you mentioned, the
cortex isn't just about that, it's got other regions that
are involved in other things. So maybe we should staying with vision, let's talk a little bit
about visual cortex. You told me an amazing
story about visual cortex and it was somewhat of a sad story unfortunately about
someone who had a stroke to visual cortex. Maybe if you would share that story because I think it illustrates
many important principles about what the cortex does. - Right, so the visual cortex you could say the projection screen. The first place where
this information streaming from the retina through this
thalamus connecting linker gets played out for the highest
level of your brain to see. It's a representation, it's a map of things going
on in the visual world that's in your brain. And when we describe a scene to a friend, we're using this chunk of our
brain to be able to put words which are coming from a
different part of our cortex to the objects and movements
and colors that we see in the world. So that's a key part of
your visual experience when you can describe
the things you're seeing, you're looking at your
visual cortex, and this is. - Could I just ask a quick question? So right now because I'm
looking at your face. - Right.
- As we're talking, there are neurons in my brain more or less in the
configuration of your face that are active as you move about. And what if I were to close
my eyes and just imagine, I do this all the time by the way David. I close my eyes and i
imagine David Berson's face. [laughs] I don't tend to do that
as often, maybe I should. But you get the point, I'm
now using visualization of what you look like by way of memory. - Right.
- If we were to image the neurons in my brain,
would the activity of neurons resemble the activity of
neurons that's present when I open my eyes and
look at your actual face? - This is a deep question,
we don't really have a full. - It seems like. [indistinct] - Yes, except you're talking
about looking in detail at the activity of
neurons in a human brain and that's not as easy to do as it would be in some
kind of animal model. But the bottom line is that, you have a spatial representation
of the visual world late as a map of the visual world lay down on the surface of your cortex. The thing that's surprising is that, it's not one map, it's
actually dozens of maps. - What do each of those maps do? - Well, we don't really have a
full accounting there either, but it looks a little bit
like the diversification of the output neurons of the retina, the ganglion cells we
were talking about before. There are different
types of ganglion cells that are encoding different
kinds of information about the visual world, we talk about the ones that
were encoding the brightness. but other ones are
encoding motion or color these kinds of things, the
same kinds of specializations in different representations
of the visual world in the cortex seem to be true. It's a complex story, we don't
have the whole picture yet, but it does look as if
some parts of the brain are much more important for things like reaching for
things in the space around you. And other parts of the
cortex are really important for making associations between
particular visual things you're looking at now
and their significance. What is that object,
what can it do for me, how can I use it? - What about the really
specialized areas of cortex like neurons that respond
to particular faces, or neurons that I don't
know can help me understand where I am relative to
some other specific object? - Right, so these are
our properties of neurons that are extracted from detected
by recording the activity of single neurons in
some experimental system. What's going on when you actually perceive your grandmother's face, is a much more complicated question and it clearly involves
hundreds and thousands and probably millions of neurons acting in a cooperative way. So you can pick out any one little element in this very complicated system and see that it's
responding differentially to certain kinds of visual patterns and you think you're seeing a glimpse of some part of the process by which you recognize
your grandmother's face. But that's a long way from
a complete description and it certainly isn't
going to be at the level of a magic single neuron
that has the special stuff to recognize your grandmother,
it's going to be in some pattern of activity across many, many cells resonating in some kind of special way that will represent the
internal memory of your mother. - So it's really incredible?
- Yeah. - I mean that every time
we do this deep dive which we do from time to time, you and I we kind of like
march into the nervous system and explore how different
aspects of our life experiences is handled there and how it's organized. After so many decades of doing this, it still boggles my mind that
the collection of neurons one through seven active
in a particular sequence gives the memory of a particular face and run backwards seven through to one, it gives you a, it could be rattlesnake pit viper heat sensing organs.
- Right. - You were talking about earlier. So it sounds, is it true that there's
a lot of multi-purposing of the circuitry, like we can't say one area of the brain does A and another area of the brain does B. So areas can multitask
or have multiple jobs. They can moonlight. - Right, but I think in my career, the hard problem has been to square that with the fact that things are specialized that there are specific genes expressed in specific neurons that make
them make synaptic connections with only certain other neurons. And that particular synaptic arrangement actually results in the
processing of information that's useful to the
animal to survive, right? So it's not as if it's either
a big undifferentiated network of cells and looking at any one is never going to tell you anything that's too extreme on the one hand, nor is it the case that
everything is hardwired and every neuron has one function and this all happens in
one place in the brain, it's way more complicated and interactive and interconnected than that. - So we're not hardwired or soft-wired? - Both.
- We're sort of, I don't know what the analogy
should be what substance would work best David? - No idea there, but the idea is that, it's always network activity. There's always many, many neurons involved and yet there's tremendous
specificity in the neurons that might or might not be participating in any distributed
function like that, right? So you have to get your mind around the fact that
it's both very specific and very non-specific at the same time. It's a little tricky to do, but I think that's kind
of where the truth lies. - Yeah, and so this example that you mentioned to me
once before about a woman who had a stroke in visual cortex, I think it speaks to some of this. - Right. - Could you share with us that story? - Sure, so the point is
that, all those of us who see have representations of the visual world in our visual cortex. What happens to somebody
when they become blind because of problems in the
eye, the retina perhaps? You have a big chunk of the cortex, this really valuable [indistinct]
for neural processing that has come to expect
input from the visual system and there isn't any anymore. So you might think about
that as fallow land, right? It's just used by the nervous system and that would be a pity, but it turns out that it is in fact used. And the the case that you're
talking about is of a woman who was blind from very early in her life and who had risen through the ranks to a very high level
executive secretarial position in a major corporation. And she was extremely
good at braille reading and she had a braille typewriter and that's how everything was done. And apparently, she had a stroke
and was discovered at work, collapsed and brought her to the hospital. And apparently, the
neurologist who saw her when she finally came to said, "I've got good news and bad news." Bad news is you've had a stroke, the good news is that it
was in an area of your brain you're not even using
it's your visual cortex and I know you're blind from birth so there shouldn't be any issue here." The problem was, she lost
her ability to read braille. So what appears to have been the case and this has been confirmed in other ways by imaging experiments in humans is that, in people who are blind
from very early in birth, the visual cortex gets repurposed as a center for processing
tactile information. And especially if you train
to be a good braille reader, you're actually reallocating
somehow that real estate to your fingertips. A part of the cortex that
should be listening to the eyes. So that's an extreme level of plasticity. But what it shows, is the visual cortex is kind of a general
purpose processing machine, it's good at spatial information and the skin of your fingers
is just another spatial sense and deprived of any other input
the brain seems smart enough if you want to put it
that way to rewire itself to use that real estate
for something useful, in this case, reading braille. - Incredible, somewhat
tragic, but incredible. At least in that case tragic, yeah. - Very informative.
- Very informative. And of course it can go the other way too. - Right. - Where people can gain function
in particular modalities like improved hearing or tactile function in the absence of vision.
- Right. - Tell us about connectomes,
we hear about genomes, proteomes, microbiomes, ohms, ohms, ohms these days.
- Yeah. - What's a connectome
and why is it valuable? - Yeah, so the connectome
actually now has two meanings. So I'll only refer to one
that is my passion right now. And that is really trying
to understand the structure of nervous tissue at a scale
that's very, very fine. - Smaller than a millimeter. - Way smaller than a
millimeter, a nanometer or less, as that's 1,000 times smaller, or it's actually a million times smaller. So really, really tiny on the scale of individual synapses between individual neurons or even smaller like the
individual synaptic vesicles containing little packets
of neurotransmitter they're going to get it
released to allow one neuron to communicate to the next. So very, very fine, but
the notion here is that, you're doing this section after
section at very fine scale. So in theory what you have
is a complete description of a chunk of nervous
tissue that is so complete that if you took enough time to identify where the boundaries of all the cells are, you could come up with
a complete description of the synaptic wiring of
that chunk of nervous tissue because you have a complete description of where all the cells are
and where all the synapses between where all the cells are. So now you essentially
have a wiring diagram of this complicated piece of tissue. So the omics part is
the exhaustiveness of it rather than looking at
a couple of synapses that are interesting to you
from two different cell types. You're looking at all the
synapses of all of the cell types which of course is this massive
avalanche of data, right? - So in genetics, you have genetics and then you have genomics which is the idea of
getting the whole genome. - All of it. - And we don't really have an
analogous word for genetics, but it would be connectivity
and [indistinct]. - Right.
[indistinct] - Right, so it's wanting it all and of course it's crazy ambitious, but that's where it gets fun. Really it's a use of electron microscopy, a very high resolution
microscopic imaging system on a new scale with way more payoff in terms of understanding the connectivity of the nervous system
and it's just emerging, but I really think it's going
to revolutionize the field because we're going to be
able to query these circuits how do they actually do
it, look at the hardware in a way that's never
been possible before. - The the way that I
describe this to people is if you were to take a
chunk of kind of cooked but cold spaghetti.
- Right. - And slice it up very thin
you're trying to connect up each image of each slice of
the edge of the spaghetti as figure out which ropes of spaghetti belong to which. - And have a complete description of where this piece of spaghetti touches that piece of spaghetti is there's something
special there obviously. - Meat sauces and all the other cell types and the pesto where it all
is around the spaghetti because those are the other
cells, the blood vessels and the glial cells. And so, what's it good for? Maps are great, I always think
of connectomics and genomics and proteomics, et cetera as necessary, but not sufficient.
- Right. Right, so I mean in many cases
what you do is you go out and probe the function and you understand how the
brain does the function by finding neurons that seem to be firing in association with this
function that you're observing. And little by little
you're work your way in and now you want to know
what the conductivity is maybe the anatomy could help you. But this connectomics approach or at least the serial electron microscopy reconstruction of neurons approach, really is allowing us to frame questions starting from the anatomy and saying, I see a synaptic circuit here, my prediction would be that
these cell types would interact in a particular way, is that right? And then you can go and
probe the physiology and you might be right
or you might be wrong. But more often than not,
it looks like the structure is pointing us in the right direction. So in my case, I'm using this
to try to understand a circuit that is involved in this
image stabilization network we're talking about, keeping
things stable on the retina and this thing will only respond at certain speeds of motion. These cells in the circuit like slow motion they won't
respond to fast motion, how does that come about? Well, I was able to probe the circuitry, I knew what my cells looked like, I could see which other
cells were talking to it, I could categorize all the cells that might be the players here that are involved in this
mechanism of tuning the thing for slow speeds, and then we said it looks
like it's that cell type and we went and looked
and the data bore that up. But the anatomy drove the search for the particular cell type because we could see it
connected in the right place to the right cells. So creates the hypothesis that lets you go query the physiology, but it can go the other way as well. So it's always the synergy
between these functional and structural approaches
it gives you the most lift. But in many cases, the anatomy has been a little
bit the weak sister in this. The structure trying
to work out the diagram because we haven't had the methods. Now the methods exist and this whole field is
expanding very quickly, because people want these circuit diagrams for the particular part
of the nervous system that they're working on. If you don't know the cell
types and the connections, how do you really understand
how the machine works? - Yeah, what I love about is, we don't know what we don't know. - Right. - And scientists we don't ask
questions, we pose hypotheses. Hypotheses being of course some prediction that you wager your time on basically. - Right.
- And it either turns out to be true or not true,
but if you don't know that a particular cell type is there, you could never in any
configuration of life or a career or exploration of a nervous
system wager a hypothesis because you didn't know it was there. So this allows you to say ah, there's a little interesting
little connection between this cell that
I know is interesting in another cell that's a little
mysterious but interesting, I'm going to hypothesize
that it's doing blank, blank and blank and go test that. And in the absence of these connectomes, you would never know that
that cell was lurking there in the shadows. - Right, right, yeah. And if you're just trying to understand how information flows through
this biological machine, you want to know where things are. Neurotransmitters are
dumped out of the terminals of one cell and they
diffuse across the space between the two cells which
is kind of a liquidy space and they hit some receptors
on the postsynaptic cell and they have some impact. Sometimes that's not
through a regular synapse, sometimes it's through a neuromodulator like you often talk about on your podcast that are sort of. - Dopamine.
- Dopamine, exactly. Oozing into the space between the cells and it may be acting at some distance far from where it was released, right? But if you don't know where
the release is happening and where other things are that might respond to that release you're groping around in the dark. - Well, I love that you are doing this and I have to share
with the listeners that, the first time I ever met David and every time I've ever
met with him in-person at least at his laboratory at Brown, he was in his office, door closed, drawing neurons and their connections. [laughs] And this is somewhat unusual for somebody who's a endowed
full professor or chairman of the department et cetera for many years to be doing the hands-on work. Typically, that's the stuff
that's done by technicians or graduate students or postdocs. But I think it's fair to say that you really love
looking at nervous systems and drawing the accurate renditions of how those nervous systems are organized and thinking about how they work. - Yeah, it's pure joy for me. I mean, I'm a very visual
person, my wife is an artist, we look a lot of art together just the forms of things are
gorgeous in their own right. But to know that the form
is in a sense the function that the architecture of the connectivity is how the computation happens
in the brain at some level even though we don't fully
understand that in most contexts, gives me great joy 'cause
I'm working on something that's both visually beautiful
but also deeply beautiful in a sort of a higher
sort of knowledge context, what is it all about. - I love it, well, as a final question, I get asked very often about how people should learn about neuroscience, or how they should go about
pursuing maybe an education in neuroscience if they're
at that stage of their life or that's appropriate for
their current trajectory. Do you have any advice to
young people, old people, anything in between about how to learn about the nervous system more
maybe in a more formal way? I mean obviously, we have our podcast, there are other sources of
neuroscience information out there, but for the young person who thinks they want to
understand the brain, they want to learn about the
brain, what should we tell them? - Well, that's a great question. And there's so many sources out there. It's almost a question of how do you deal with this
avalanche of information out there, I think your podcast
is a great way for people to learn more about the nervous
system in an accessible way. But there's so much stuff out there and it's not just that. I mean, the resources are
becoming more and more available for average folks to participate
in neuroscience research on some level. There's this famous Eyewire
project of Sebastian. - Oh yeah, maybe you let us about Eyewire. - Yeah, so that's connectomics
and that's a situation where a very clever scientist realized that the physical work of
doing all this reconstruction of neurons from these
electron micro-graphs, there's a lot of time involved. Many, many person hours
have to go into that to come up with the map that you want of where the cells are,
and he was very clever about setting up a context in which he could crowdsource this and people who were interested in getting a little experience
looking at nervous tissue and participating in a research project could learn how to do
this and do a little bit. - From their living room.
- From their living room. - We'll put a link to Eyewire,
it also is a great bridge between what we were just
talking about connectomics and actually participating in research. - Right. - And you don't need a graduate mentor or anything like that.
- Right. So more of this is coming and I'm actually interested
in building more of this so that people who are interested, want to participate at some level don't necessarily have
the time or resources to get involved in laboratory research can get exposed to it and participate and actually contribute, so
I think that's one thing. I mean, just asking questions
of the people around you who know a little bit more and have them point you
in the right direction. Here's a book you might like to read, there's lots of great
popular books out there that are accessible that
will give you some more sense of the full range of what's
out there in the neurosciences. - We can put some links to
a few of those that we like. - Right.
- On basic neuroscience. - Right.
- Our good friend Dick Masland, the late Richard, people call him Dick
Masland had a good book. I forget the title at the moment. It's sitting behind me somewhere
over there on the shelf about vision and how nervous systems work. A pretty accessible book
for the general public. - Right
- Yeah. - Right, so that, and there's
so many sources out there. I mean, Wikipedia is a great way. If you have a particular
question about visual function, I would say by all means,
head to Wikipedians and get the first look and follow the the references from there, or go to your library,
or there's so many ways to get into it, it's such
an exciting field now. There's so many, I mean, any particular
realm that's special to you, your experience, your
strengths, your passions, there's a field of
neuroscience devoted to that. If you know somebody who's
got a neurological problem or a psychiatric problem,
there's a branch of neuroscience that is devoted to
trying to understand that and to solve these kinds
of problems down the line. So feel the buzz, it's an
exciting time to get involved. - Great, those are great
resources that people can access from anywhere zero-cost as you
need an internet connection. But aside from that, we'll
put the links to some. And I'm remembering,
Dick's book is called, "We Know It When We See It." - Right, one of my heroes. - Yeah, a wonderful colleague who unfortunately we lost a few years ago. But listen David, this has been wonderful. - It's been a blast. - We really appreciate you
taking the time to do this as people probably realize by now you're an incredible wealth of knowledge about the entire nervous system, today we just hit this top contour of a number of different areas to give a flavor of the different ways that the nervous system
works and is organized and how that's put together, how these areas are
talking to one another. What I love about you is that you're such an incredible educator and I've taught so many
students over the years. But also for me personally as friends, but also any time that I want
to touch into the the beauty of the nervous system, I
rarely lose touch with it. But anytime I want to touch into it and start thinking about new problems and ways that the nervous
system is doing things that I hadn't thought about, I call you. So please forgive me for the
calls past, present and future unless you change your number. And even if you do, I'll be calling. - It's been such a blast Andy. This has been a great session and it's always fun talking to you. It always gets my brain
racing, so thank you. - Thank you, thank you
for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. David Berson. By now, you should have a
much clearer understanding of how the brain is
organized and how it works to do all the incredible
things that it does. If you're enjoying and/or
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