Douglas Murray 2020 interview: What future? What role for identity politics?

Douglas Murray thanks for joining us I appreciate it to Greene pleasure you are author and journalist I mean we can see the madness of crowds and the strange death of Europe both behind you know product placement perfect and I think potentially the madness of crowds and actually also the strange death of Europe I think there will be will be room for us to discuss the subject matter in those books around and in relation to coronavirus I'd like to start with the choir broad question which is how you think coronavirus will change our world both for our country and more broadly the globe well the first thing is to say that I think you have to be a fool to make predictions about this very few people talked about this subject saw it coming or could possibly have seen the situation we're now in when we last met I think in person maybe nine months ago and we spoke I think neither of us would have expected that we would be in this complete you know lockdown I don't think anyone else did either so I think a certain sort of humility is required if if we didn't expect this you know let's be humble about our predictions and expectations going forward I there are various ways which you can see this some people say like Ben gamma the four MP who had a history of the Black Death some years ago wrote recently saying actually these things don't change that much in their society it's sort of it stops and then the society keeps going as it was before some people take that attitude towards major pandemics and and similar catastrophes others say well no actually there are significant changes that happen I mean somebody pointed out the other day we still where this isn't exactly a significant change but we still say bless you when somebody sneezes a plague or five centuries ago so so of course they and they have some kind of effect the problem with it is the problem with prediction on this is that it's it's impossible to see which way it could fall out there are certain things that we're doing now certain things the have already massively changed in our societies but perhaps when we're allowed out again we'll go back to what we were doing before the other thing I point out is an enormous temptation which we're all prone to whatever people's politics I mean there's an enormous temptation to use something like this as a sort of metastasizing force for whatever your own political viewpoint happened to be I've been keeping a sort of small notebook in recent weeks of people who've never written about pandemics never thought about them never written about China never tickley thought about it but who find that coronavirus miraculously just vindicates all the things that they were saying before you see people from every political direction doing this this virus has come along and that is why I was right all along about totally unrelated things so I just urge people not to fall into those those grooves this is very unusual it's unprecedented in our lifetimes and it probably will have some effects but it's very early to call what they might be it's absolutely I mean the the business of prediction is is I mean essence you can be a fool's errand but I would offer this it's hard to imagine the hyper globalized world that we current well used to inhabit with you know these extended supply chains still existing I think also on sort of the level of the worker I think a lot of people who have been you know constrained to their homes are now working from home are probably going to have the realization that a lot of their work can probably be completed in a couple of hours and that the rest of the time they're spend you know there's gonna be a real real realization of perhaps efficiency and also the meaning of work for people it could could be but I mean we were talking about this 20 years ago before this pandemic ah I mean you know and then the dawn of the Internet this was meant to happen I mean ember in the late 90s onwards there was already enormous literature on people saying you know this is why we're all going to work from home in future and it didn't happen of course we've just sort of got used a bit more and I'm a writer I'm used to working from home and what were used to being my own but of course most people who work in offices and things have become more used to this virtual world but who's to say that they won't therefore relish being back in the office and relish you know company outside their immediate family again yeah maybe it will happen like that maybe it won't as for the globalization point I mean I think we have to be careful about this I think yes in terms of supply chains there will there will probably be more of a public urge public wish for us to be able to have faster Swift access to vital products and to be in a greater control ourselves or at least more easily able to access particularly medicines and they'll be they'll just it'll be easier for people to make that argument than it was a few months ago but other aspects of globalization I can't especially see people giving up on I mean after the end of the lockdown I don't think that people are going to be less reluctant than before to go abroad for instance wouldn't there be more of an urge thing to get back to doing that to traveling to traveling for work as well as for pleasure I would have thought that that sort of aspect of it will just go back to normal but you know this is the problem of the term globalization it means an awful lot of things yeah of course I think it's akin relation to international travel I think it may well end up being a case of expense you know the collapse of these Airlines but moving on I perhaps I'd like to touch on what we're learning about our country well we're learning about ourselves in this moment you wrote recently about trust on that well national trust you described it as could you talk about that yeah I wrote about this in The Spectator I feel very strong for this and I think this is a point that hasn't been made enough you know we we in Britain have been living in a country which in recent years has been said to be you know a divided country divided society we were meant to be incredibly trust room and be distrustful of all institutions all institutions from the police and Parliament to the monarchy and much more was said to have you know lost public trust at various points it goes up and down but we've been reading this some of us have been writing bits of that for years and and I'm very struck among other things by the fact that in recent weeks the British public turn out not to have lost trust in all institutions but to have been quietly storing it away even while we pretended otherwise so you know when our leading scientists gave their presentations to the nation very few people said we don't trust the scientists we've got our own views now we might come on to that there are people fringes admitting there are people trying to invent their own science among other things at the moment but but by and large you know we listened to the scientists and we were concerned persuaded if you like the Prime Minister you know not beloved of the entire country in recent years was said to be a highly divisive figure and all that sort of thing but you know broadly speaking the British people we trusted him we do trust him I think but we do believe he's he's trying to do his best and that the government are trying to do their best and and and that's that's very striking to me look at the UM the the warmth and affection with which the Queen's message to the nation was received now again this the monarchy is the institution has up until recent months been very easy to sort of laugh at and derive but but it has turned out to be a receptacle an important receptacle of memory as well as trust and and as I say what strikes me about this is that that a society that thought that we didn't trust anyone turns out to have had trust in institutions and indeed in experts and now that isn't the case in every country and I think what we're seeing in America at the moment is a demonstration of this that you know American politics still even now even facing this pandemic cannot rid itself of the pro or anti Trump prism you know everything has to be seen through that and I mean I I think that's a tragedy for America and society but but that isn't a tragedy fortunate that Britain has at the moment there's a couple of points there but I think we'll come back to later on particularly institutions in American politics but I think the the point there you mentioned I'd like to explore a little bit more now is memory because in the the Queen's address she LinkedIn she she she called back to her broadcast during the second world war which I think was very powerful and obviously as well sign off we will meet again a reference to Daryl in which was the anthem during that time but I'm I am cautious about invoking the sort of the met the second world war metaphor because I think the well we're sitting on our asses at home not storming the beaches of Normandy you've noticed yes yes obvious to the viewer but you know it's useful pretty is useful to employ that language and to make those references they are they all right they are a simple and easily understandable call for for national solidarity but at the moment I think I mean the the struggle if you like against this virus I mean it's it's closer it's close to a tragedy isn't it then a sort of heroic you know Dunkirk Normandy type moment I almost feel like it's a it's a it's a case of succumbing and accepting and putting our faith in the science and the medicine and it there's not really this this bravado if you like I know and I wonder how constructive it is you know well I mean this point we made many times but of course the Second World War analogy is useful because Britain and indeed most of the Western democracies have been running off the the the residual capital of world war ii ii unity for eight decades now and that's because that was I mean Jonathan Hite among other things has made this point by American politics it's about the only thing you can still unite people about you know we were on the right side then so thank you very much everyone agrees on that even in America and so that when you do have these moments of unity you do need to run off them for time if their utility and that's that's what's happening there yes I mean obviously as I thought I point out that I I think that you can hark back to these things as times when we've also been united but that isn't to what it'll be outrageous to put ourselves in the in the you know the bracket of that in the way there is a terrible passivity about this but nevertheless there is something there is something slightly quietly heroic about it everyone's given up quite a bit of their Liberty we will all have given up on a significant amount to all of our earnings and many people will be much impoverished by this we all will be in some way if it turns out that that was the price necessary to duck the worst of this and if we have indeed ducked it then doubtless there'll be lots of people who said it wouldn't have happened anyway but I think there is something quietly heroic about people's doing that it's it's as I say it's not it's not it's not it's an act of passivity admittedly but it does rely on it does it does show you know some residual fortitude I think and and of course there is the fact that among people in the country are people who are behaving heroically I mean I thinking of those people in the NHS and elsewhere who are having to turn up to work an hour risking health for certain in in many cases sadly their lives to to do their job and and there is a hope heroism in that certainly it's interesting to mention the economic impact I spoke to Peter Hitchens last week and he he his argument is that essentially it's disproportionate and that the cure made may be worse than the disease itself but that's the case if we duck the disease yeah I mean that you know I I relish plurality of debate and ideas and so I I'm always delighted when people say things and argue thing the right things that I'm in disagreement with but I do think that Peter Hitchens is point you know relies on us not having bursting hospital wards and people dying outside hospitals in very large numbers and so long as that's the case then again it's it would be possible to say that the Cure is worse than the disease but that's only possible if you if you duck the disease which is what obviously in Britain how the countries are trying to do at the moment yes and remain remains to be seen but the other the other way of looking at plague is as a great leveler isn't it Walter shadow I think actually a potential spectator us colleague of yours he argues that plagues are one of the few things that actually can reduce inequality by virtue of I mean without getting too morbid about it you know all of a sudden the workforce is you know a wages increase there's fewer workers around I mean do you think this is a great leveler is it is it possible to make that call at this time well I mean um not to be flippant about it but death is the great leveler in general and we're all gonna succumb to it at some point I mean if this is not an original observation now large catastrophe that's true can have this effect I think over several things to point out growth again there is a risk in this of us hearing what we want to hear I just put out a you know there's been a great debate in recent years particularly coming from the political left French author and economists Piketty and others you know brought the issue of inequality to the fore and there is a risk that some people say well in fact it happened at BBC's Newsnight presenter Emily Maitlis weirdly last week went on a totally I think first ever sort of American news style and command sermon to the audience you know not not a an introduction but a sermon of this is what we need to do this is what we need to learn sort of it and inevitably talked about inequality and how after the Crone virus we've gotta tackle inequality and I put that in the bucket of don't do that stuff certainly don't do it yet um you know in the immediate aftermath of this all sorts of things can happen there might be all sorts of things we should address I mean the first thing is to be better prepared for a pandemic like this happening again which it almost certainly will but when I hear people talking about things like you know can this make us a more equal society I think just just hold your horses of it let's get through this and then you know as I say there's something ugly about using pandemics to argue a political point I mean we've we've had we've had one that interests me of course because I wrote about in the madness of crowds was was the use of identity politics to go riding across everything and we've seen in recent weeks and I thought at the beginning of this pandemic well at least those people will shut up for a bit well it was a matter of hours they remain quiet and then you know we got the usual things of people who wanted to accentuate you know war between the sexes started arguing that women were more risk from coronavirus than men and then the stats showed the opposite but they didn't shut up about that they just said well more men might be dying but it's women who are suffering you know it's there have been really ugly attempts to racialize this people saying that ethnic minorities suffer more therefore you know using quite often very easily easy to refute statistics to do that stuff very early on there were reports you know saying things at the BBC ran this was a how difficult it is and Crona virus for gay people who have homophobic parents you know sure but like is difficult for straight people who find their parents irritating and you know why are we doing this so there has been quite a lot of that I my hope is that all these things all these attempts to politicize from every direction just dampen down a bit they have dampened down a bit but just just that we saw stick with that you know it's not interesting to keep dividing people at a time like this and I'm I'm sort of infused by the fact that there isn't much appetite for that stuff and that broadly speaking we're more interested in unity to get through this than in the people who'd wish to divide us you know along class lines or economic lines or racial lines or sex lines or anything else it is it is a fact isn't it that the AME people are disproportionately dying during that during the course of this of this pandemic we can discuss that in more detail if you'd like but I just on the mate list point I actually found her monologue quite powerful I found it quite moving and I wonder if if you did all that's not the case at all no no didn't do anything for me and I thought that it shouldn't I just didn't think it was the place of Emily Maitlis was a fine journalist and I admire but I don't think it's either look one thing that's very striking of the polling that's been done we talked earlier about trust is the fact that of all the institutions in Britain that have seen almost all have seen a rise in public trust in them the monarchy Parliament politicians politics the what at the NHS obviously the one that's seen a massive fall in trust is the media and that is that there are lots of reasons for that but you know people should really in the media should look to themselves on this and think maybe there's a reason for this and I think one reason is we don't consume the media in order to be morally improved by journalists and I can tell you by the way from much personal experience if you wanted more improvement journalists would not be the place to go we make very bad sermons but one reason that public trust has the kind is that there is a sense that the media doesn't know what it's doing in this faith didn't see this coming and hasn't responded very well to it has continued with silly media games we've been playing for years gotcha journalism you know who's up who's down why haven't we seen this person for a few days is there a divide between this scientists and this Minister and how this sort of stuff and there doesn't seem to be much appetite for it in the public which which I'm pleased with quite I don't think that there should be but but again one of the other reasons for this is is is that this this whole idea that the media is there to morally improve us and that we require moral direction from the presenter of news night for instance is is a deep mistake I think it's it's it's it's a category error and I really I really do not think it is the role of journalists in that position and I'm not talking here about opinion journalists or columnist but of allegedly impartial people to say this is what we have to do as a society to change after this I don't think it's their role very quickly on the point you BMA deaths this is disputed again I sort of think I don't want to dwell on it because it's it's the whole thing is divisive but one important thing is of course is that in the UK if it is the case in the UK this to a great extent will have to do with the fact that there is such a high portion of BMI people in London and the London is the mega city and the UK most affected by the virus and if I mean I comment well the figure is now I mean some people say it's around 40% of people in London are categorized as BMA well that means that if the major outbreak centre is London then then then people those backgrounds again in you know going to be seen on national average to be disproportionately suffering but I say say I some would skip over because it's it's so ugly that anyone would use it for political purposes I mean there have been those who in recent days have been saying the video just came out today as she's been going around online of you know immigrants who work in the National Health Service and therefore Britain's immigration policy has to open up after this and I just think what how enormous Lee convenient for you if that was your view beforehand immigrants it's true work in the National Health Service and immigrants it's true use the National Health Service and amazing doctors are trained in the UK and amazing doctors are trained abroad but why would you use a virus to dictate your immigration policy I mean I would have thought it would be regarded as really poor manners and really morally blow to use the coronavirus to point out the number of people of ethnic minorities using the NHS for instance I mean like don't do that now for God's sake so don't do the positive and don't do the negative of it you know 21st stay focused on the things that aren't just your pet campaigning things but that seems to be harder than people realize on this subject of institutional revival there I mean it was a weekend at the beginning of this month extraordinary not least because it was the weekend that Boris Johnson was hospitalized but you've really mentioned the the Queen's address to the nation we've discussed that already new leader in the Labor Party potentially this revival of the Official Opposition being an you know the effective check and balance that it's meant to serve in our Constitution and then conversely I feel like these these Downing Street press conferences have sort of been these moribund moments almost of decay both in the media and potentially the government I wonder your assessment of those sort of those daily diktats and then the question answer sessions afterwards well your assessment of the miss bean I mean you mentioned gotcha journalism already yeah I mean well firstly I feel sorry for kissed Armour who's a you know distinguished figure and and I'm sure will will lead the Labour Party as well as it can be led but I mean I don't think anyone cares very much I mean points who cared who was being appointed to the Shadow Cabinet this there's nothing less important at the moment I we're all trying to keep an eye on our loved ones and and keep them safe and you know get through this and is stahma is deeply non it just doesn't appear on the radar of concerns for me I think that's probably the case for most people the press companies I think as I say they the interesting thing is that look we've got to be humble about this as I said the people who studied pandemics were until very recently a small number of experts and they didn't have a great audience you know we have to realize that when this happens we do have the right and should weigh up what the benefits and costs of a policy that we're being advised to go through are but you know I come back to this point about trust broadly speaking the journalists have made a mistake because thought the public want the games they played before so for instance there's this thing of the u-turn which I've been critical of you know in journalism to do a u-turn is something deeply shameful you know oh my gosh you've you turd how could you u-turn oh you know I don't know if you drive but you turning is a really useful maneuver if you're about to crash or if you're going in the wrong direction this is really worth doing much more worth doing than driving straight into the wall with your principles intact but but journalists in recent years a particular love this sort of game why have they been continuing to do this now only because they don't know what else to do now I think this might get better because in the coming weeks there is a much there's a much more complex debate about to happen which is the debate around how we ease out of this as a country and that that is that is going to be very very hard and there will be a lot because everyone's learning fast on all of this stuff I mean I mean I joke about how amazed I am of how the number of Virology who turn out of being living among us in hiding all of these years but but no I mean to be to give people credit they have mugged up on this a lot and and by the coming weeks but debate of the lockdown ending there will be a I think of pretty nuanced discussion about that and it will be a matter of weighing up a very careful set of judgments I don't envy by the way the politicians in Britain or anywhere else you have to make that call because you know I'm not let's not beat around the bush our economy is screwed we are facing it's just you whistle sometimes as you look at the news just come in you know and it's not even near the top of the news agenda you know like one in 20 people lose their jobs is the news in brief one day a few weeks ago I had 20 people lose their jobs you know we just had the a chancellor's statement yesterday I mean an unprecedented contraction of the British economy and minutes we're in really really really dangerous territory here and I I sympathize to those people who say you know the the sort of you know what what if this is all the prelude to something you know what if this is all just the awful opening act and we don't know what comes next and the what comes next is you know we've got mass unemployment and everyone is seeing their savings you know not a wiped out but massively degraded and and so on I mean you know there's an awful lot of social upheaval to come or could be a lot of such that people become and and and you know the politicians who hone to have to make the judgments on that they are making very very fine judgments and I but as I say I'm sort of infused by the fact that certainly in Britain there seems to be an awareness they're still holding that you know the politicians are trying to do their best in very very difficult circumstances and that's so far that public trusts has held you know I mean there's been there's been a bit of there's been quite a lot of focus on a few people who have disregarded the official advice but by and large people have gone along with the government advice you know and that'll probably continue if you lose that and that's one of the things politicians will currently be very worried about will be if for instance you end the lockdown and then you get a resurgence of the virus I mean that's that's a that's that's difficult because that's the well when you start to really risk losing public trust but yeah there's a lot of scenarios of doom like that yeah so I I was speak about this in light of the madness of crowds because obviously at the moment there is this sort of peaceable consensus around what's going on and very little hysteria very little so yeah this mob mentality have been being vindictive or punishment actually well with it there's been a few I say this is you know people people who have been like sunbathing in the park or you know things and there's been there's been minor pylons around things like that but it hasn't been vicious I wouldn't say in the way the note previously it has been and perhaps I wonder what in in the context of that book what your assessment is of the things at the moment and things to come do you think there is an opportunity or there is the potential for that kind of history around the virus and the the potential lifting of the lockdown yes I mean always but by the way I mean any student of history can't help finding this very interesting as we go through it and there are things that have happened in recent weeks which you know are things we've read about in history but perhaps never expected to live through and see firsthand I mean I mean I've written a lot about crowd panic but I mean Wow to see it in action in every every town it's quite something there have also been those things which are very familiar from previous crises of weird rumors breaking out we've seen the the 5g conspiracy thing for instance which has been fair I mean I mean it's just extraordinary you know um people trying to burn down phone masts you know um in the belief that I mean this is the sort of thing that we knew and would expect to read in a history of a pandemic in the Middle Ages but to live through it and to see even two small examples of it is as I said I don't to use this as a vindication of anything well please you believe it to my mind it's it's a reminder of the fact that but the extent to which we progress as human beings is deeply limited deeply limited I mean we are and remain the scared beings we always have been susceptible not in entire team its acceptance small portions and sometimes in an integrator number two scares the the book of them of crowds took its title from Charles Mackay is a 19th century work strange popular delusions and the madness of crowd listed examples of this there's a huge literature are on on this of how crowd scares happen and yes I think we're quite fortunate that we've only seen smallish outbursts of this but you wouldn't you know if there were more deaths in a country like the UK or you know a you you you wouldn't you won't be able to trust us to be rational through this whole thing and I wouldn't anyway I think you just mentioning the sort of the medieval comparison to the burning of the 5 g bars and I've just realized sort of how historically we look back on that period you know sort of the burning of witches and and how ridiculous and ignorant and stupid that is yes realize there are people going around to you know sort of burning the phone this extraordinary isn't it right and you can see exactly how these things happen you know sometimes it requires just one person to set it off that's why there's been a certain annex or to clamp down in recent days in the UK when the TV percent Raylan Holmes just sort of said you know well you know I think we shouldn't shut down the debate something and then there is a very interesting free speech debate around that and I'm all for having ideas out and that's because I believe that bad ideas will be trumped by good ideas but nevertheless in the short term when people are scared that there is all sorts of rationality that we can succumb to it's all there you know where we we're not we're not magically wiser than our forebears you know we're not magically braver or more rational and if a rumor goes around you can just sweep through yeah it's bad it's big increasingly powerful in sort of the age of instant communication in information earlier you mentioned the the sort of the Trump prism through which I mean everything in American politics is views the talking point today is this sort of the freezing of the US contributions to the World Health Organization and I wonder if we could talk about that a little bit I mean first of all whether you think that's a sensible course of action during a lethal pandemic well I mean I don't have a strong stance on this I see both sides in it firstly the Dunwich overs is really open to an awful lot of criticism for its handling of it this principally because of the way in which it allowed China to massively mislead the globe I mean after all of this when we are in a better frame of mind there is a very significant reckoning to be had with the Chinese Communist Party that rules that country and the manner in which it attempted to hide a pandemic has now shut down the globe which its actions have caused and we should we should be unafraid to point fingers in that way the derecho has is certainly able to be accused to my scene of complicity in this or at least turning a blind eye allowing it happen and so on there's just one caveat I say that which is that a lot of people in America are saying perhaps understandably well this is a classic Trump diversion tactic in terms of withdrawing the funding because obviously it means everyone's talking about that and not about his own actions I mean I would say the interesting thing about the trumping is it you know various world leaders can be accused of having not taken fact almost every world leader can be accused of not having taken this seriously enough until it raged and there's also reasons for that and there will be a time to you know to litigate that and to come to some conclusions on that Emmanuel macron French president in his address to the French nation a few days ago admitted his own culpability in that he admitted that he had not early on in a this crisis taken it seriously enough and acted fast enough and and that's very interesting because of course that's exactly the opposite of Trump Trump Trump like every other world leader you could say oh like a lot of other world leaders in the democracies and elsewhere did not take this seriously enough early on but he's up for reelection later this year and he cannot concede any weakness I mean that was always the case of Trump and he certainly feels that he cannot concede that you know when he was saying in February that this is you know basically a flu and you know and not much more that that was not right you know so but as I say this is just the horror of America which I say we all I'm just grateful we haven't got stuck in in Britain but the horror in America is that everything is seen through this prism and I mean watching those press conferences in the White House every day you just just appalled at the hollowing out of that society and the extent which it's become this just distrusting distrustful bipartisan and and just incapable of doing anything other than going over and over this one electoral issue is it's horrifying our loved America is horrifying to see that and and from the world superpower owners I mean that's that's an interesting point particularly relation to China because well we mistook there's two points here first of all were you saying earlier about the accuracy that with the width the information being withheld in China I mean there's our freedom of speech freedom it's a closed society isn't it which then raises the question of whether they actually have the pandemic under control of the moment it's very difficult oh I wouldn't believe it I wouldn't leave any figures from China yeah I've made this point before but I don't know anyone who does business in China I've traveled in China a certain amount but I can't say I know the country well enough that's at all with any great expertise about it from the inside but I don't know anyone who does business in China who believes the books that they're shown by any company any state-owned company and nobody believes the financial box quite rightly I wouldn't but believe their figures on this for a moment for a moment the you know one of the strange things that your generation of mine have had is that we haven't really we haven't really had to understand deeply the nature of authoritarian rule because it hasn't been in great enough proximity to us it was different for our parents generation who you know even the most ignorant basically ended up realizing what communism was just like generation earlier that ended up learning having to learn the hard way what fascism was and it is extraordinary the way which our generation this generation that's growing up after that you know treats that has treated the Chinese regime for instance as if it's like any of the others as if it's like America or Britain and it's just it's just not and maybe maybe people will learn through this that that is the case again maybe they won't I mean I I'm at risk of of injecting my own hopes onto that but you know more people realize what a regime like that that rule china is actually like but you know the china is doing a lot of propaganda at the moment i mean look at what look at the i mean who are we mass who are we labeled boxes being delivered to members of the Dutch government receiving them off a truck in the smiling and thanking who are we representatives for this generous gift as if this is I mean there's been an awful lot of that and you see people on the left and the right sucking that up you know thinking yes and they have been very very serious examples of that by the way the Serbian government survey office calls in recent years has been hoping to join the EU fall in the Serbian president at the beginning this crisis when the EU I think you know did not respond well received an awful lot of aid from China and gave a speech in which he said unbelievably our real friend is China it is not Europe now I mean that this is a this is this is a catastrophe for for Serbia and for Europe but it's a it's a it's a fascinating move of the axis of just a part of global power that's why I just urge that we we take when this is over we take a really hard look at this and what China has done to the world what it has done to our societies I'm really up for a real reckoning on this a real financial reckoning and anyone who anyone who thinks that you know the Chinese government wouldn't do X just has no idea I mean no idea of what they're capable of some years ago I interviewed the extraordinary Chinese dissident activist Chen Guangcheng who's an amazing amazing figure and I wrote that up on her sever eight years ago know what Chen Guangcheng who remembered rather dramatically escaped to the blind that he managed to escape to the American Embassy in Beijing and managed to get out and an interesting definitely stand off what he described the common authorities just in a regional level as being willing to do you know thought you know think of forced abortions at nine months to enforce the one-child policy you know my point is if there's nothing that they haven't been willing to do to their own population so I go on the presumption there is nothing that they are not willing to do to the rest of the world so long as it serves their interests so this is you bring me on to the next point I want to talk about you've mentioned this hollowing out of American society potentially the end of the American unipolar moment then look at Serbia which you mentioned that extraordinary I agree speech followed up I think Conte in Italy has said similar because the EU you know the very difficult position for them Italy too big to fail like it's not Greece they can't abandon it similarly know what beyond potentially euro bonds etc can they do to rescue it and whether they will remains to be seen and then all of a sudden you have China shipping medically I mean all kinds of a to these to these places and there is the potential isn't there that China somewhat bizarrely even though you know the virus art originated in Wuhan as least as we understand it at the moment yeah and they could be turning this around it could be an extraordinary political play for president yeah I mean I I I would simply urge everyone to do everything they can to ensure that that doesn't happen and that the the arsonist doesn't get praised for saving the house you know I you mention it ebo and I feels just so deeply sorry for the Italian people in this is just unbelievable tried to do this been going on there and I mean you know the sentiment in that country in relation to it sounds ridiculous to talk about the EU when as the country has been going through the the horror that Italy has in recent weeks but yes I mean one can understand why opinion against the EU in Italy as you know the anti-eu opinion that has been growing as a little polished show and and I think those Italian politicians who said you know we feel abandoned you know not they're not on to nothing I mean that the madness would be if they thought that the response to the failure of the EU is to embrace your honest as I say but maybe for some that will be seen to be some kind of short-term solution but I mean obviously one would just urge them not to do that this this is this is just too important and China cannot China cannot just cheaply bribe its way out of this you know I I'm all for every option being on the table financially you know don't cancel the debt don't pay any debt write it up just do everything just just do everything we can to make sure they pay a price in the way that they feel and in a way that they will feel in you know in a language that they understand for causing this crash of the global economy which which as I say we're in the prelude so many people are going to lose their job so many per families are going to be struggling and you know this isn't like you know we also need to assume that we're all subtle enough to understand that this isn't an anti Chinese point it's a point that the Communist Party of China that rules that country cannot be allowed to get away with crashing the globe and then giving us some sweeties to help us get over it when you put it like that is pretty compelling yeah some some people most notably the u.s. president referring to coronavirus as a Chinese virus even a foreign virus and being and being criticized for that I mean this this is touching on I think your point about perhaps you know the barbarians are at the gates and we'll be debating what pronouns are called it I think it probably connects connects to that in a way I mean what's what's your assessment of that is that is that for you just the continuation of the culture war yeah I just think it's it's an example of people who don't know what to do or what to say these people who've never thought about pandemics people who've never thought about this situation they've looked the world through one particular lens and they'll just keep trying to do that you know I just yeah I don't I don't think first of all I mean the point that Bill Maher made the other day that we always call pandemics after the name of the place they're from you know whether Middle East respiratory syndrome ha the Hong Kong flu you know everything has been named after its place of origin when somebody said the other day well yeah Milan was heavily hit by this we don't call it the Milan flu yeah but it didn't originate in Milan you know so there's nothing wrong with calling it the whoo ham virus or the China virus it's it's accurate I mean I just again how you just sort of you tear your hair out but there are people who serious you think that that's the issue but maybe they would only be doing that because they have nothing else to do there nothing else to say and no other perspective to see things you know the people who've been taught that the whole world can only be understood or can be best understood through race-baiting politics of course we'll be talking about words and dog whistles at this point it just seems hell of a weak thing to be doing and a pointless thing to be doing and you know I just wish that they would they would be quiet for a moment on that you know as I say that's where it comes from I'm not adamant that we all have to call it the Wuhan virus or anything but there's nothing racist about just mentioning that and it's it's really weird seeing people still trying to play those those games you know yeah but as I say I'm not worried about them I think I think is gonna be very little when with all of these people are getting across Britain lose their jobs as household after household suffers a massive financial crisis from this I don't think that we're gonna be very interested in the race-baiting academics who spend their lives talking about dog whistles it's just like we didn't need them before very much if at all we certainly don't need them now and if there is that dampening down as you described it earlier the end of the culture war if it does happen what is it that you're you're going to do with your time Douglas I never said it was the end of it still a good trait it might be quiet for a bit I might be quiet for a bit but I'd like to think of course of the combination of the madness of crowds and the coronavirus or off the identity politics movement but I don't think I think it would be a bold but it should look I mean this stuff won't go away it might come back with a greater vengeance I wish it would go away you know IIM when I write about things that are aggravating and dangerous I don't do so in the hope that they will continue for all time you know I do so in the hope that they will stop and stop diverting us from doing things that waste our time you know I can't stress enough that that and in fact this whole period has been you know it should be may be regarded as you know an opportunity to reboot on something and I think for a lot of people has been certainty among friends and others I speak to I hear this you know I this is a moment where you you can if you want to remind yourself of the things that actually have value in your own life you know the instead of you know filling up our days with distraction reminding ourselves of the value of the things that we regard as being valuable the things that which actually have worth now that maybe our families maybe we feel that we didn't pay enough attention to our nearest and dearest enough and in the hubbub of the daily life and and and so on we we we could have been better family members maybe maybe we could have been better friends and closer and being there more for each other maybe we could have been better communities made a better society and maybe just as individuals there are things we should have been doing which this has reminded us of you know I mean we I've written this before but I mean are in our lives we we constant well we fail and fairly regularly have reminders of this the sort of what should I actually be doing with my life it tends to happen when you know a friend or loved one dies very suddenly or when you face it a personal catastrophe something like that that's when you you tend to ask that sort of question but this is a moment when as a society it wouldn't be unwise for us to be asking that question of us of our society and of ourselves and to say actually why don't we focus on the things that we find meaning in and leave more meaningful lives as a result now this is a hell of a way to find that out a heck of a unpleasant way for that to happen but maybe it can happen you know maybe maybe maybe that can be the case I at any rate have tried to use what the spare time I have to do a lot of things including a lot of reading and thinking about things that I wanted to do for a long time but I've always said as I say that that what are the things I could decide like I criticize because I want them to get out of the way I wonder the guy out of the way so we I can get on to the things that I love and want to do and maybe we've all got a moment like that don't worry that's a great place to leave that I think thank you very much for your time it's an enormous pleasure thank you you

Channel: PoliticsJOE

Views: 130,947

Keywords: Politics, UK politics, British politics, Parliament, Government, Westminster, douglas murray, the madness of crowds, douglas murray interview, douglas murray strange death of europe, china, coronavirus, coronavirus pandemic, world health organisation, wuhan, donald trump, donald trump who, donald trump china, 5g coronavirus, covid-19, douglas murray identity politics, douglas murray 2020, douglas murray jordan peterson, chinese virus, foreign virus, social justice, sjw, 2020 interview

Id: rQgjp0ikgFg

Length: 54min 11sec (3251 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 16 2020