Don't Blame Teachers Unions For Our Failing Schools

okay well thank you all very much for coming it's my pleasure to uh welcome you uh my my job in these evenings is to frame the debate and uh we thought this one would be interesting because it seems like Unions would be acting in their own self-interest and in the interest of their members in the context of public education this might mean fighting to have the highest number of dues paying members uh at the highest possible levels of pay and benefits with the greatest possible job security it implies resistance to technological innovation to Charter Schools uh to measuring and rewarding Merit and to dismissals for almost any reason at all qualifications defined as degrees from teachers colleges Trump subject matter expertise seniority Trump's uh classroom performance individual teachers perhaps the overwhelming majority of them do care about their students but the Union's job is to advocate for teachers not for education but is that a reason to blame teachers unions for failing schools the right way to think about this is to hold all other variables constant failing schools are often in failing neighborhoods where crime and drugs are common and two parent families are rare children may not be taught at home to restrain their impulses or to work now for rewards in the future or the value and importance of Education even the most able students might find it hard to progress in classrooms dominated by students of lesser ability who may be disinterested at best and disruptive at worse in these difficult conditions maybe teachers know better than remote administrators what their students need and the unions give them an effective voice voice maybe unions do have their own agenda but is that really the problem is there strong statistical evidence that incentives incentive pay improves classroom performance or that Charter Schools produce better results or that strong unions spell weak educational outcomes holding everything else constant that it seems to us is the correct way to frame tonight's debate and why we we expect it will give you ample reason to thing twice oh thank you normally Robert you introduce me but I'll do it myself I'm I'm really sorry I was waiting for that c yeah uh I I was waiting for that too I'm sorry uh well now John over to you that works so perfectly thank you thank you and may I invite one more Round of Applause for Robert Rosen CR who makes this all possible welcome everyone to another debate from Intelligence Squared us I'm John Donan of ABC News and once again I have the honor of moderating as the six Debaters you see sharing this stage with me here at the skirball Center for the Performing Arts at New York University six Debaters three against three will be debating this motion don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools parse out that language that means if you vote for the motion you are voting for exonerating teachers unions if you vote against the motion you are voting for you blame teachers unions I'll rephrase that you blame teachers unions if you are voting against the motion now this is a debate and I'm the referee but you the audience are actually the judges you will have been asked by the time this debate ends to vote twice once before and once after debate to tell us where you stand on this motion and after hearing the arguments and the second vote the team that has changed the most Minds will be declared our winner so let's go now to the vote and at the right hand side of your seat there is a keypad read this motion closely because the language is a little bit challenging if you are for the motion push number one and for the motion means you exonerate teachers unions if you are against the motion push number two this means that you blame teachers unions for the failure of the schools if you are undecided push number three and if you feel that you've made an error in your selection just push the correct number and it will lock into the the most recent your your last vote will actually be the one that is recorded so we will tally those votes in a few minutes and somewhat into our opening round I will tell you what the first results were I also wanted to share a a very brief personal note that I'm going to declare irrelevant that uh my grandfather was a New York City public school schol teacher and so is my father and so is my mother and so is my 93-year-old aunt Grace who even now is living on in the Bronx I will make all of this irrelevant because that is my job to be neutral and to moderate so let's get on with round one of our debate opening statements by each debater in turn they will be 7 minutes each uninterrupted and speaking first for the motion I'd like to introduce uh Ry wein Garten who is the president of the American Federation of teachers the country's second largest teachers union and I believe also you have New York City School teachers in your heritage um absolutely ladies and gentlemen many many of them many many Randy W ladies and gentlemen thank you John thank you Bloomberg Thank You NPR and thank you Mr Rosen CR look we have a double challenge today in America one is the need to compete in a global economy an economy that has changed hugely even as many of us um have been wrestling with it number two we have the effects of the global recession state and local budgets that are totally and completely decimated right now and so when the investment is very very Meek as it is right now and the need is very very great it's no wonder that people are looking to find one entity to blame but my friends blaming unions for school failure is like blaming the middle class for the recession ultimately what unions do what our Union does proudly is have a me have a mantra what is good for kids and what is fair for teachers now am I saying that everything we've ever done is the right thing absolutely not am I saying that we are perfect absolutely not but what we are trying to do in this very very turbulent time is search for what works search for what works for kids let me ask let me um suggest this if teacher unions were to bla be blamed for failing schools then you would assume that schools in less unionized States would outperform schools in more densely unionized States so you'd assume that places like Mississippi Alabama Louisiana who have relatively few Union teachers would do much much better right but that's not the case the states with the most densely unionized teachers Massachusetts New York Maryland they do the best and the countries with the most densely unionized populations Finland Japan they do the best so what do we learn from that what we know is that there are problems like Mr Mr Rosa cramp said there are problems we have to solve one of which is poverty States like Alabama Louisiana Mississippi they have and have been plagued by tremendous poverty we have to compete with poverty that's what public education is and that is what the search we have for that's what our search is to find what works so ultimately I hope tonight we can move from scapegoating to Solutions to problem solving and I would argue to all of you that having a strong union someone and an entity that will look at what it's done right and what it's done wrong and solve things and change things is the way to go so what works what can we learn from places like Maryland Massachusetts New York State Finland and Japan this is what we can learn this is what works what works in places where we don't as Terry Mo will probably argue where we don't have Niche markets where we can't marketize our schools where we have to help all kids so we need we need well-prepared and supported teachers we need well-rounded rigorous curriculum that engages kids and that we can get our arms around we need to invest in the tools and the time to differentiate instruction we also need things like early childhood educ ation and a focus and a fixation on graduation in terms of high school and finally we need good services to help level the playing field for kids now is this a Panacea is this something that has never happened and it's a search for something we don't know how to find no we find these elements in lots of different places and the glue that binds This Together the difference between the places that work and the places that don't are good Labor Management relationships like we see in one of my other panelists here in the ABC School District in California which Has Lifted its scores which has changed its relationships from competitive to ones that are collaborative does that mean as I said before that we've done everything right of course not everyone has to take more responsibility in this day and age if we're going to ensure that all kids are ready for life for college for career that means that that means we all have to take Collective responsibility and we at the AFT attempted to do that in any number of ways first in pushing for common standards including the new Common Core Curriculum or the common core standards in pushing for better aligned Assessments in pushing for better curriculum and in looking at ourselves and saying look we have to have a new approach to Due Process we can't have rubber rooms anymore we can't have a choice between off with your heads and warehousing we can't have situations where if there is incompetence in the classroom we allow that to happen we have to have new evaluation systems that are fair that are meaningful that are competent and that actually help teachers teach in a more robust way than they may be doing now but we also have to give teachers the tools and the time and the conditions that they need to do a good job with kids because at the end of the day to compete with poverty to lift all boats to make sure that kids get that chance to dream their dreams and to achieve it it comes with initially that connection between teacher and kid that connection we make every day that we teach that connection I made with my kids at clar Barton High School that I know Gary made when he taught I know Lisa made when she teaches we need teachers to have the support of the people around us and the unions the unions all of us the unions will do everything in their power to help fight for the tools and the conditions that teachers need and to fight to ensure that every every kid every kid gets a well-prepared and well supported teacher thank you very much thank you Randy linart our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools and now to argue against the motion because he does blame teacher unions teachers unions for the failure of the schools I'd like to introduce Terry Mo of the Hoover institution whose book almost 20 years ago uh titled politics uh politics uh markets in America's schools uh was full of ideas that seemed radical at the time and that since then have become uh actually part of school systems experimental school systems throughout the country I don't know whether it's been the pace that you would like Terry it's been 20 years yeah well it's only 20 years okay ladies and gentlemen Terry Mo well thank you very much it's great to be here um I want to thank Intelligence Squared for arranging this event and for putting the spotlight on what in my view is the most important issue in American Education today the power of the teachers unions uh I should be clear that our team is not saying that the teachers unions are responsible for every problem of the public schools uh what we are saying is that uh the unions are and have long been major obstacles to real reform of the system and we're hardly alone in saying this if you read Newsweek Time Magazine The Washington Post and lots of other well-respected Publications they're all saying the same thing that the teachers unions are standing in the way of progress so look let me start with um an obvious example the teachers unions have fought for all sorts of Protections in labor contracts and in state laws that make it virtually impossible to get bad teachers out of the classroom on average it takes two years $200,000 and 15% of the principles total time to get one bad teacher out of the classroom as a result principes don't even try they give 99% of teachers no joke satisfactory evaluations and the Bad Teachers just stay in the classroom well if we figure that maybe 5% of the teachers that's a conservative estimate are bad teachers Nationwide that means that 2 and A5 million kids are stuck in classrooms with teachers who aren't teaching them anything this is devast stating and the unions are largely responsible for that right they're also responsible for seniority Provisions in these labor contracts that among other things often allow senior teachers to stake a claim uh to desirable jobs even if they're not good teachers and even if they're a bad fit for that school right these seniority rules often uh require districts to lay off Junior people before senior people it's happening all around the country now and some of these Junior people are the best teachers in the district and some of the senior people that are being saved are the worst okay so just ask yourself would anyone in his right mind organize schools in this way if all they cared about was what's best for kids and the answer is no but this is the way our schools are actually organized and it's due largely to the power of the Union iions now these organizational issues are really important but they're just part of a larger set of problems our nation has been trying to uh reform the schools since the early 1980s right and the whole time the teachers unions have used their extraordinary power in the political process to try to block reform and make sure that real reform just never happens consider Charter Schools you know there are many kids around in this country who are stuck in schools that just aren't teaching them they need new options right well Charter Schools can provide them with those options but charter schools are a threat to teachers unions right because if you give Kids Choice and they can leave regular Public Schools then they take money and they take jobs with them and that's what the teachers unions want to stop and so what they've done is they've used their power in the political process to put a ceiling on the numbers of charter schools as a result result in this country today we have 4,600 charter schools and there are like well over 990,000 Public Schools so this is a drop in the bucket right and meantime charter schools have huge waiting lists of people who are desperate to get in in Harlem for example the charter schools there got 11,000 applications for 2,000 slots recently right so just to give you an idea of how the politics of this works out in Detroit a few years ago a benefactor came forth and said he was willing to donate $200 million to set up additional charter schools for the kids in Detroit who obviously needed right what did the Union do the union went ballistic right they shut down the schools went to Lancing demonstrated in the state capital and got the politicians to turn down the $200 million for those kids this is good for kids I don't think so this is about protecting jobs okay the same kind of logic applies with accountability you know accountability is just common sense right we obviously need to hold schools and teachers accountable for teaching kids what they're supposed to know right but the teachers unions find this threatening they they say they support accountability but they don't want teachers held accountable and any sensible effort to hold teachers accountable they brand as scapegoating teachers they don't even want teachers performance to be measured you know right here in New York City Joel Klein indicated a while ago that he was going to use student test scores as one factor in evaluating teachers for tenure what did the Union do right this is something that Obama supports that Arie Duncan supports it's totally reasonable and what the union did is they went to Albany and they got their friends in the legislature to pass a law making it illegal to use student test scores in evaluating teachers pret tenure anywhere in the state of New York you it's just outrageous and makes no sense from the standpoint of what's best for kids the New York Times called it absurd right but this is how the unions approach accountability okay well I don't have a whole lot of time left here so let me just quickly say I think our opponents are going to say tonight as as uh Randy has already said there's really no conflict between uh standing up for the jobs of teachers and doing what's best for kids but the thing is there is a conflict and that's why we can't get bad teachers out of the classroom because they protect them that's why the schools have totally perverse organizations imposed on them and that's why totally sensible reforms are fiercely resisted in the political process now what you're going to hear I'm sure throughout the evening is that union leaders and unions around the country they're actually reformers too they want to get bad teachers out of the classroom they favor Charter Schools they're all in favor of accountability right well not really um talk is cheap right what counts is what they actually do and what they do is to oppose reform this is the reality thank you thank you Terry Mo our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools I'd like to introduce our second debater speaking for the motion not to blame teachers Kate mclaughin is an elementary school teacher in L Massachusetts at the moment our only active teacher in the debate tonight um Kate I understand you have moved on to being a math coach for kids do you teach I teach children children and teachers kindergarten through fourth grade thanks very much for joining us tonight ladies and gentlemen Kate mclan good evening everyone I too would like to thank the rose and CR Foundation especially for having a teacher come and speak because it is a rare occasion for a teacher to actually be able to talk about education it's usually think tanks and professors and and others so I'm I'm really privileged to be here tonight thank you um Coming the first time I heard about this you know don't blame teachers unions I I too thought like Randy I'm from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts which I'm very proud proud to say is number one in the country our students perform higher than anybody else in this country academically yet we have the strongest collective bargaining rights in the country so to me it just doesn't add up and and then I started thinking I'm I'm also a doctoral student so I'm trying to learn as much as I can about research and so the next thing I did is I went straight to the literature so even though Professor Mo will say that uh Publications are all saying the same thing there is no research to support what what he is saying there is no research out there that correlates student achievement to collective bargaining rights to teacher unionism either for or against there's no conclusive evidence so people can say what they want and publicize it but that doesn't mean that it's research-based um so with that what do collective bargaining rights do to improve schools and I have a lot to say cuz not not only am I a teacher I'm the Executive Vice President of the United teachers of LEL and I deal with this firsthand as a union leader and for me what colle collective bargaining rights do is they provide um dignity a way to provide dignity for a profession that frankly gets beat up on a lot um and the way that we can do that is we can ensure language that improves working conditions for teachers but also for children so one example of that which unfortunately my district has not my Union's not been able to negotiate yet is something like we could have language for class sizes so early childhood children would be in smaller classes which the research shows is good for them but that's a way we can ensure It Is by having it in the teachers contract so that's just one example um the other thing that collective bargaining rights help us with at a local level is it ensures academic freedom and what that means is there are times as a teacher that I need to advocate for the child and that means I have to say something unpopular something that an administrator might not appreciate me saying in front of a parent and I need to be able to do that to be the best teacher that I can be and I need to be able to do that without fear and that is why collective bargaining rights are very important when you are in a classroom you need need to be able to do what you know is best for children and that is why it is important besides families no one cares more about students and their learning especially students living in poverty than their teachers and what the teachers unions do at the local level is we serve as a conduit for the teachers so while my opponents on this motion might say that I have my own agenda I would argue that is absolutely not true my agenda is the agenda of the teachers what the teachers need so the way that we find that out at a local level um the president of our Union and the superintendent along with other members of the executive board go to the schools and meet with the teachers and find out what they need to get their jobs done we survey our members and what they need in in their classrooms is our agenda so for example one thing that we've done is we've created what's been called the Department of Education in Massachusetts is called the Cadillac teacher induction program so the union and management sat down together was actually a union initiated uh protocol um to make sure that every teacher in their first three years of teaching had a qualified and trained Mentor they have access to District designed graduate level courses specifically designed so that they can best meet our students in LEL who often come with second language issues they have full training and what they need um also with that the mentors are trained to talk to their mentees about whether they're in the right place or not and to councel them out of perhaps Urban education if that's not what's meeting their need um or meeting the children's need um and also to help them make better choices um another thing that was Union initiated that is in our contract um we call the Lowel program it's an in-house graduate program where teachers can get their master's degree again the superintendent and her colleagues have decided what the content of the course is and we work together so that teachers are given the tools they need um in terms of evaluations are uh evaluation procedures in LEL as negotiated are actually more stringent than what's required by state standard so our new teachers are evaluated twice every year whereas the state only mandates once so in terms of unions advocating for poor evaluation measures it's just not true uh the most important thing in my opinion about what we've done and I can't speak to 20 years ago cuz unfortunately I was only in high school but um I can speak to what's happening in schools now and what we are doing is this Labor Management Union because with all du respect we've been the teachers have been told what to do we've been given scripted curricula from under reading first grants and under these grants and we found the teachers found they were not working for children we've been told what to do and now what we need to do is have a seat at the table to be part of the decision making and so in Loa we have begun this journey to build collaborative structures in our district between labor and management so the people at the ground floor the teachers can inform the decisions that are made for children so it is indeed what is best for them thank you thank you k f so here's where we are in this debate we are halfway through the opening round of this Intelligence Squared us debate I'm John Donan acting as moderator we have six Debaters three against three fighting it out over this motion don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools we have heard from three Debaters three opening statements and now on to our fourth to speak against the motion I'd like to introduce Rod paage who uh is famously uh the US Secretary of Education under the Bush Administration even more famously once called teachers unions ter terorist groups um I knew that was going to come up it has to come up um and also um his own background in education he is the son of uh a school principal in rural Mississippi who to make's meet also worked as a barber I believe is that correct rod that's right and how times have changed or perhaps they have not ladies and gentlemen Rod Paige what is good evening ladies and gentlemen I'm here to con convince you to vote against this proposition all of us know that teachers are not solely to blame for our fail in schools but they bear significant responsibility and the way this is framed the only way you can express that is to vote against this proposition now to understand my point of view you have to realize how powerful these organizations are to be blunt teachers unions represent the most dominant political force in American Education we're not talking about little whiy organizations we're talking about Mammoth highly financed highly organized highly peopled organizations and political dominance is not something that they got unintendedly they intended to be politically dominant here's a quote from Sam Lambert in 1967 about the Nea Nea will become the political become a political power second to no other special interest group listen at those words people could argue now that they've already reached that goal teacher unions represent the number one political spender in the United States of America in the state of California the Nea spent more in the last decades than any other political spender and the second political spender spent less about about little better than one half of what the Nea spent these are powerful dominant organizations the Nea has 3.2 million members 14,000 locals across the United States and last in 207 they collected about $400 million from their members to supplement the other revenue streams that they had they f is not a slouch either they have 1.4 million members 300 locals across the United States they're active in 43 States the Nea has State offices in every state in the United States and that's not all they can call on their political Powers political Partners when they get in trouble they can call on the AFL CIO they can call on acon they can call on America people for the American weight they can call on the center for Community change these are Mammoth organizations and I need need for you to understand that in order to understand why we take this position now in American Workforce about 12% of the of Workforce is unionized but in the education professions is 38% teachers union literally have our many of our schools in a choke hole this is completely dangerous now power corrupts total power corrupts totally you need to be clear about how they use this power they try to convince people I've heard a lot of this tonight about children and their members don't be fooled organizations have one primary interest they may have some other interest but they have one main interest teacher Union's main interest is the welfare of their members another quote from an Nea operative the major purpose of our association not the word association they don't even call himself unions is not the education of children but rather it is or ought to be the extension and preservation of our members rights now that's just a statement of fact organizations can't serve two Gods little G they serve one and in the case of teacher unions it it is the interest of their members now let me tell you a live story in 2000 a buffalo teacher Buffalo School District had about 7,000 members and they were the most unionized public school system in the United States of America at 700 a.m. on a school day the leader of the of the teachers union stood on the Buffalo headquarters steps and called a stretch at 7:00 a.m. on a school day now many children are already on buses on their way to school many parents have already dropped kids off at school thinking their kids are in the Lov and care of teachers mistakenly does that sound like an organization that cares about kids they were arguing for employee rights I'm going rush to two more major points that really tick me off to some extent teacher unions are sitting on both sides of the negotiating table in many cases they teacher teacher unions work with school boards so they have representative uh Representatives on the school boards when I served as the superintendent of Houston one of my nine school board members was actually employee of the teachers union fortunately for me both were reasonable people and we got along rather well but many School District superintendents don't have that luxury they have school uh they have school boards that have teacher Union Representatives sitting on that side of the table the union sitting on this side of the table and they're negotiating with themselves they're sitting on both sides of the negotiating table but here's the worst thing I think that really fires me up teacher unions have awesome power to cause action in schools they have zero responsibility for the student performance now that's that's just not fair that's not fair it handicaps the principles and the superintendents who are operating with both hands tied behind their back the teacher unions are calling the rules they're responsible for student achievement that's no way to run a ship and it and it just simply will not will not will not work that way now here again I want to be Earnest and I want to be fair we cannot solely blame teachers union for this complex issue we got in our schooling situation but they do bear significant responsibility and the only way you can express that is to vote against this motion and to indicate that we as a nation if we're going to really reform our schools we're going to have to wind back some of the power of teacher unions we can still have teacher unions we're not arguing that we shouldn't have teacher unions our schools are over unionized and consequently reform has run into a roadblock thank you very much thank you Rob paage our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools and now to speak for the motion and we just heard Rod page say that superintendents have their hands tied by the unions well Gary smutz is a school superintendent of the ABC Unified District in California considered a district where the schools work and Gary you have said in the past you do work effectively and successfully with unions ladies and gentlemen Larry smutz excuse me I'm sorry I need to correct that for the record because it's not Larry it's Gary just came out ladies and gentlemen ladies and gentlemen Gary smutz both of us are here tonight um secret secretary page in a wonderful book he wrote with his sister Dr Elaine witty it was entitled uh the black white achievement Gap by closing it is the greatest civil rights issue of our time he says in the book being taught to higher levels means educational support from factors outside of school it involves the support and commitment from the entire education triage home school and community and secretary Pages call to improve the effectiveness of our schools recalls an article co-written by Professor Mo entitled letting schools work in that article Professor Mo reports effective schools treat teachers professionally uh the teachers share in the school's goals and effective teaching in the pursuit of those goals they participate extensively in school decisions within their classrooms they are free to tailor their practices to the needs of their students that effective schools are organized like teams held together by consensus cooperation and shared goals it sounds like a teacher Union to me thank you Professor Mo now I must clearly delineate my Prejudice my frame of reference I am from the ABC unified school district Southern California by 21,000 students were about 89% diverse 38 different languages spoken in my school district we have a remarkable relationship with our affiliate the ABC aft we're affiliated with the National American Federation of teachers second largest teachers union in the United States we formed our own Charter and ABC it's not a charter school we have a charter partnership agreement with the abcf where the main work of the teachers union in my district is student achievement and the conditions that support that student achievement is the main work of our teachers union and in fact last year Laura Rico the president of my teachers union had a workshop where all the union reps came in and they changed their name from union rep to learning rep and they were told by the teachers union president the number one job that you have in this Union is student achievement now that doesn't sound like a teachers union that has anything other than their main goal the main idea that secretary paig talked about in my district our Union and student achievement now here are some examples of Staff Development my district that's jointly sponsored by myself and our our colleagues American Federation of teachers it doesn't what I'm going to describe to you actually comes from the national aft from their educational research and dissemination program these are some of the courses that are taught by our teachers union instructional strategies that work reading comprehension School family and Community Partnerships supporting student learning which is actually almost exactly what secretary paig points out in his book that we need to improve schools we spend my actually my teachers union spends tens of thousands of dollars in direct staff development with our community and our teachers to improve learning now don't blame my District's Union for filing schools in fact they're one of the reasons my district is successful now we have our challenges we're a program improvement district yet last year despite $34 million in budget cuts we dou doubled the greatest gains in the history of the district we passed the magic Benchmark of 814 uh 800 actually in California went to 8:14 we didn't do that despite the teachers union we did did that because of the teachers union oh let me give you an example in my district 10 of my schools now these are struggling schools have just received an innovation Grant where each of these schools has a separate program to innovate and improve that school specific specifically tailored to the needs of that individual school that Innovation Grant came from the American Federation of teachers National Organization $3.3 million in Innovation grants funded the ABC Unified School District 10 of our 30 schools now that's just not in California or ABC actually the grant funded uh programs and districts in eight different states the American Federation of teachers National Organization is one of the most Innovative programs in the United States now some of the things that that those Innovation grants are funding in my district I said partnership efforts in 10 schools in other districts throughout the United States they're uh working on Community Partnerships they're working on using student assessment data to evaluate teachers they're also working on creating charter schools so if you're for Charters if you're for holding teachers accountable uh using student assessment data listen to the American Federation of teachers now secretary pagee uh uh Randy Weingarten agrees with you that great teachers make the real difference in closing the achievement Gap in fact the Washington Post reported in January that Randy said Fair transparent and expedient processes to identify and deal with ineffective teachers need to be developed and she specifically pointed to student assessment data now her D her her Direction was put in action most recently in the New Haven Federation of teachers District by voting of 842 to 39 that District agreed to use student assessment data to evaluate teachers in addition they agreed that the city could close schools if they didn't work and change the employees now twice each year American Federation of teachers host host the Shanker Institute I've been proud to be part of that since 2005 let me tell you what we learned at the Shanker Institute these are different workshops State Standards curriculum Bridging the Gap partnering for reform and trouble time improving the quality and the use of student assessment data the Union's role in ensuring that teacher quality matters uh teacher quality meets student needs in every seminar I've been to there's never been a session on how to keep crummy teachers they don't do that and in fact in most cases the superintendents I know that work closely with teachers unions find that we release more teachers to in to other Industries uh than we do keeping them in fact in nearby Brooklyn uh there's the uh United Federation of teachers teacher Institute and they do much the same thing they use data talk about communication team building professional development and action planning states with teachers unions set the highest standards according to education week US News and World Report reported on the most s 25 most successful schools six out of 10 of those schools come from States strong teachers unions success high standards accountability if you want that support teachers unions in schools where that works thank you Gary smutz okay now we have our Larry that's where I got mixed up I'd like to introduce to speak against the motion and our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools our next debater does blame teachers unions for our failing schools Larry sand is a retired teacher and former teachers union member who grew disillusioned with the operation he founded the California teachers empowerment Network and I've seen Larry you described in print as a pain in the Union's backside I assume we'll see why ladies and gentlemen Larry I'm glad Gary brought up uh Mr Shanker because he is alleged to have said when school children start paying dues that's when I'll start representing them now I don't know if he did say that uh some people think he did some say no but that has been the teachers union attitude ever since I began my teaching career here in New York City in 1971 in educating children there is nothing more valuable than a dedicated and gifted teacher and nothing more harmful and destructive than a bad one and it's those teachers the mediocre and the incompetent ones that the unions typically represent in fact they punish good teachers in numerous ways unions insist insist that school districts not pay good teachers what they're worth they insist on an archaic factory model of payment whereby teachers make more money by years on the job not productive years just by calendar progression considered the greatest teacher of our time Haim Escalante subject to the film Stand and Deliver now unfortunately near death in his native Bolivia attracted national attention at Garfield High School in Los Angeles with his spectacular success teaching college level calculus to gang members and other unteachables talk about poor students what was the problem because he was willing to have more students in his class than the United teachers of Los Angeles contract allowed for he was basically run out of town by that Union when there are layoffs due to budget cuts do the worst teachers get laid off no due to permanence or 10 a union must in every contract the newest hires or let go you're a teacher of the year too bad you double test scores too bad but the unions will go to any length any length to save the job of a bad tenure teacher if you think I'm exaggerating here's a quote from an LA union rep if I'm representing them it's impossible to get them out it's impossible unless they commit a lewd act end quote and maybe not even then you're laughing this is a true story and this didn't happen very long ago X was a former colleague he's alleged to have touched a female student inappropriately there were Witnesses the female student would not press charges so they put X into the district office for a while the so-called rubber room which probably most of you know of they decided to put him got a union lawyer they put him in another school he apparently did the same thing back to the rubber room sitting sitting finally one day I guess he got bored he decided to bring porn to the district office the rubber room he got caught with the Union lawyer's help he got put back into a school another school the third school now and in short order he got caught showing his female students some of his pornography collection now last I heard he's back in the district office waiting for his union lawyer to make the next move this is the kind of guy that really needs the union not a dedicated teacher not an honest teacher this is the kind of guy who really needs the Union by the way the guy I'm talking about Mr X is really a pussycat compared to some of the teachers you have in New York just reading some things about a and I'm only saying his name because it's in the newspapers of Francisco olivaris who impregnated one of his students and is still on the payroll another instance in my middle school involved a teacher who decided to sunbathe topless on the athletic field at lunch it was a nice spring day you know um what happened with the Union's help she was put back into school in an elementary school this time as a once again a union rep in his own words I've got in and defended teachers who shouldn't even be pumping gas not my quote this is a union rep that's the mentality unions today function more like functions more more like criminal lawyers than Partners in education reform very importantly too the unions love the status quo and will fight to keep it in California recently uh education reformer uh Bill Evers was attacked by a local union for trying to get single poor math a new and Innovative way of teaching the subject but because learning all the different things you had to do to teach this was a little bit too much for some of the teachers the unions decide to kill it very importantly the unions are constantly trying to limit the number of charter schools the cartel an excellent film by Bob Bowen about public education as one of the most affecting scenes I've ever seen on film it shows parents and children waiting to see if they won the lottery that is if they got into the charter school if charter schools have more children than seats available very simply they hold a lottery and in this scene the camera goes into close on the faces of the children and the and the parents who are winning the lottery and getting into the charter school and they're thrilled and you feel happy for them and then they go into the people who didn't win and these people are crying and sad you feel horrible for them very affecting scene but these tears of joy and anger excuse me tears of joy and sadness turn to anger because you realize the unions are constantly fighting the establishment of charter schools as the utla did by the way just about two weeks ago in Los Angeles they were very successful at killing Charter Schools another abominable example um I'm going to speak a little quickly because I'm running out of time the DC opportunity scholarship program it was created to rescue at least some children from the horrible School District Washington DC we spend $27,000 per student probably the worst school system in the country 1,700 kids mostly poor mostly black won the lottery which gave them a $7,500 scholarship to get into the best schools they could private a parochial the program was a great success the kids look forward to to going to school for the first time they Thrive their parents were happy the taxpayers save money the only ones un happppy were the unions who cannot abide any competition for the government run monopolies even though it has been shown that where school choice exists Public Schools improve I will close with a quote from from Juan Williams uh who said about this situation the NAA seems far more devoted to its members than they are of the children they teach it doesn't seem to bother them that they continue to fail the nation's most vulnerable children Amen to that Mr Williams thank you thank you Larry s and that concludes round one of this intelligence Square debate and we now have the results of our initial vote where we asked you the live audience to tell us where you stand on this motion our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools before the debate the vote went like this those for the motion those who say it's not the teachers fault 24% those who blame teachers unions for our failing schools against the motion 43% and we have 33% undecided we'll ask you to vote once again at the end of the debate and the team that changes the most Minds during the course of the debate will be declared our winner now on to round two this is our middle round in which The Debaters talk directly to one another and take questions from me and also from you in the audience and I want to begin with a couple of specifics specific charges that were laid out there but not really responded to Terry Mo specifically saying that teachers unions operate against the whole notion of charter schools that they try to stop them wherever they find him I want to hear from the other side true or not true let's start with Randy we Garten well given that the United Federation of teachers under my watch started two charter schools in East New York it's totally and completely untrue what we want to do is we want Charters to be held to the same accountability standards including the ones that we started um as any other school and what the evidence has been in New York um like the evidence around the country is that that Charter Schools instead of as Diane ravage said should take more of the most atrisk kids are actually taking fewer special needs kids and fewer kids with limited English proficiency so we've opened to we think Charters could be a great incubator for instructional practice and could be a great incubator for Labor Relations practice but Terry I don't want New York to be as much as an evidence-free Zone as Washington DC seems to be which means let's look at the Credo study which was done um with a pro-charter Advocate what they said was where 177% of the charters are better than public schools 34% are worse and the rest are the same the idea is to actually find what works make it sustainable and make it replicable that's what we're trying to do and that's what I'm trying to do Terry Mo Randy W Gart is saying no it's not not true that they are against all Charter Schools well let me first point out that New York state has a cap on the number of charter schools it has a cap because this Union put it there and even under the pressure of race to the top they wouldn't lift the cap right so this is not an organization that's in favor of charter schools they've done everything they can to keep Charter Schools down what they're doing now in New York City is they're running three schools to show if they can that unionized Charter Schools can work because what they want to do is to unionize all the charter schools that's the only reason they're doing ity I mean you know what's interesting Terry is that I didn't know you were in my head so much we are not running charter schools to unionize all Charter Schools where the cap come from we wanted to do what we wanted to do was actually the New York city and state unions were in favor of of lifting the cap and in favor of creating a Level Playing Field to make sure that all kids could equally get into all schools and if you recall New York state became one of the finalists for race to the top so obviously whatever happened in the state legislature didn't disqualify it from race to the top the bottom line is we need schools all schools Charter Public private to be places where parents want to send their kids and where Educators want to work that's the bottom line how do we help all kids not just some kids but all kids let me do you want to respond because I want to move on to another question but if you'd like to respond I'll just make one point I mean this is the standard response that is really all about kids right but the fact of the matter is they're trying to keep the number of charter schools down they're responsible for this cap in New York state and everything else is just a rationalization you know Terry I wish we had the kind of um M who charter schools in La there's charter schools in LA and there's Gary smutz I'm going to let you go Gary smutz I just want to identify charter schools in LA and there's Magnus schools in LA LA Times article about two months ago by Howard Bloom pointed out that the most successful schools in the LA Unified School District are magnet schools now these aren't schools that shut down get rid of kids get rid of teachers these are schools that have a special Focus they keep their faculty if you want the most successful schools in the LA area it's not Charters it's not traditional schools it's magnet schools that have the same configuration the same Union if you want success go with magnets don't go with Charters and don't even go with Traditional School one more response from this are those Charters are those magnet schools schools of choice most of the mag all of the magnet school T of my school schools are schools of choice I'll answer the I'll answer it a bit in my District I have 10 magnet schools in my district students can no student leaves those schools no teachers leave those schools same teach we invite other students substantially though better than 95% of the students are the same students that have always been there and those schools are successful Larry sand um here in New York City in Harlem we have very successful Charter Schools like Kip democracy prep uh Harlem success the parents as far as I know there aren't enough to keep up with the demand yet Randy is saying that seems to have a problem in Charter so she wants to go very slowly it seems that the parents want these things because most of their kids are in Hell holes now this is not the this is not the Union's fault that they're in hellholes necessarily but it's the Union's fault because they keep them in Hell holes yes the best from from a local samp in L Massachusetts it's quite the opposite they're actually closing the they're actually forc they wanted to close the charter school and we actually appealed on their behalf so they have to cut the school in half and stop teaching middle schoolers and we will absorb those students back the union stood up for the charter school and the the school system um but what you don't know again you say oh teachers are against Charter Schools you're making up the story of you're making up the story of why I am let me tell you why I actually they're not saying that they are saying teachers union use political power political power this isation of say teachers from a we're saying teacher unions p i School standpoint we from this charter school that was going to be announced got students back from this charter school which we welcomed we don't get the funding for them for another year so when the teachers unions bring up this issue we're somehow against charter schools there are major issues about the f funding that comes with it but when we speak it up we're somehow obstructionist that is not the case the other issue about charter schools for me and for my teachers union is it's an equity issue and my teachers union president has gone even to the governor and suggested that if if charter schools are truly Innovative they should be a draft and not a cream of the crop selection they are not agre that and that's and it is a total Equity issue because we've all agreed that achievement gaps come from school-based issues they come from social issues and they come from economic issues and if you alone base a lottery on which parents have gone to sign up you have already changed some of those issues so it is an equity issue they go see Bob B's film you tell me those the parents and those kids are the cream these are poor people maybe they're the cream of the poor people I don't know let's bring this back to the let's bring Kate let's bring this back to the issue of unions and I want to go to the side that is arguing that teachers unions are to be blamed for the failure of the schools and the other side your opponents are arguing uh two of your opponents used in their arguments the point that there is no real correlation between states that have uh you strong teachers unions and poor academic achievement Kate mclin opponent said there is absolutely no research on that and Randy wein Garten pointed to the numbers of states where actually there were strong unions and strong School results I'd like one of you to respond to that I'd be happy to respond to that I I don't know where the stuff comes from really uh look um you know many many many many factors influence student achievement and to say basically schools in the South don't what do as well as schools in the north which is true and the schools in the South don't have unions and the schools in the north do and to say gee whiz it must be because unions are good for schools you know I don't try that at a university you know it doesn't wash so look as as far as the research goes I don't know where Kate's getting this I mean there is a research literature um actually it's pretty big you know on the impact of collective bargaining on uh student achievement um she says there's nothing there is plenty you know it started back sort of back in the 1980s uh most of the literature I think is not good but that's typical of most of social science you know a lot of this stuff is bad you know and part of the reason is that things are complicated it's very hard to do good studies so you can't just like count up studies the the results in this literature are pretty mixed uh and I think it's partly because a it's complicated and B A lot of the studies don't do it very well but there are two studies that are actually in very top level journals right they've been through very rigorous peerreview process they are one by Carolyn haxby in the quarterly Journal of Economics 1996 another one is by me in the but that one's really good yeah this it's a lot better than Carolines um and and it is in the American Journal of political science 2009 both these studies show through a quantitative analysis both of them very extensive that the impact of collective targeting on student achievement is negative okay Randy weart teachers union president so Terry you've actually just made the point that I think many of us are trying to make on this side which is it is complicated there is not one factor that um either causes students success or um uh or or is an obstacle to it and that's exactly what we're trying to say so ultimately just just like we did not say that teacher unions were the reason why Maryland or Massachusetts or New York was so successful and by the way that was just in quality Counts from education week we were not the ones that said that Finland or Japan were most successful we're just saying that those are the correlations now there is one person who used to actually agree with you hugely Diane ravit who in looking at much of the evidence over the course of time whether it was on Charters or whether it was on vouchers has actually just written a book saying slow down the evidence of these kind of Market strategies just doesn't work my point is this whether you look at everyone is going to find anecdotes to fit into their case that's not going to help one more child learn we are searching for what actually works so regardless of the quotes one may hurl at me from the Nea or from other places I stand by the record that we have in turning around schools in New York City Mr Rudy crew who was sitting there and I together did probably the most important um reform strategy in New York in the late 1990s early 2000 where we actually turned turned around schools in Harlem we turned around schools in New York City we want to make sure every single child has a choice wants to have a choice for a charter so be it but every child should have a choice for a neighborhood high school or a neighborhood school and Larry last point to you which is this just recently unlike what you said about La in La there were 36 schools that were put up for grabs by the LA School Board the charters L this they wanted this competition and in that competition regular school teachers supported by their Union won 29 of the 36 schools because of their plans the bottom line is we need to do the things that Gary and Kate talked about in terms of helping all kids well prepared and supported teachers real engaged curriculum safe and orderly environments which is what we see in charter schools all the time good good management that works together and at the end of the day if we have to find ways as I said in 2004 to police our own profession fire teachers that are not making the grade we want to do that that's who this teachers union is we want the best and the brightest for all of our young people in this country Ry I gave you quite a long run on that um and I I want I want that's all right but I do want to urge us to stay as close as possible to our motions and I think all of us probably share a sense that we want things to improve but I want to discourage too much grandstanding on the point because we really want to get to the issue at hand um I want to go to the audience and that's not to say that any of us disagree with that just the nature of the debate I want to go to the audience for questions now and what we'll do is have microphones circulate circulate in the aisles and if you raise your hands and I identify you please stand and I'll bring a microphone to you hold it about a fist distance away from your mouth so that the radio audience can hear you and um I want to urge you to actually ask questions and to try to move this debate along in the area in which we are talking and not to make grandstanding speeches or to debate The Debaters they are here to debate each other I hope prompted by you and as a gentleman this person with eyeglasses there getting the microphone now if you could rise sir and identify yourself I'll make two state two sentences I would rather that you just make one statement and go to a question yes okay we don't you don't have problem with having a good car you know which car is are good and you can choose in all this debate there was parents who were basically forgotten and the question is in the last two three debate decades have teachers union helped parents to know which teachers are good and which teachers are bad and second have they helped parents during the last two three decades not last two three years help parents to be able to choose good teachers all right I'm going to take if you allow I get the point and I we need to move on so I think the question probably you can both sides can respond but Pro probably is primarily directed to this side and I also think it's a rephrasing of a question or a statement that's been put forward by your opponents who argue that the the interests of teachers unions are not the interests of the children and neither none of you have actually addressed that particular Point directly their point being as has been stated that teachers unions are there to grow their numbers to protect their salaries to protect seniority and in terms of those specifics if you can connect that to the gentleman's question is it good for the kids and is it good for the parents and knowing what what teachers are good and what teachers are bad to for 14 years and never never did I grade a test or work with my class things that about my standing in the teachers union I that's doesn't even go through your mind uh I I would agree that teachers unions don't rank teachers but neither do administrators there there's there's no ranking of teachers in any school by anybody I don't even know if it's possible I don't even know if it's desirable uh it wouldn't be something I would recommend that management do or teachers unions do I don't think it can be done I don't think it necessarily should be done there are variety of factors we've all had teachers that have been normally enormously successful with some folks and not very successful with others uh you can't blame teachers union for not ranking teachers because nobody ranks teachers like that and what about the part of the question I brought to because this is an itch I need scratched the the whole issue that the the objective of a union is not the same thing as an objective of taking care of the kids in the best possible way in the educational it's not that that's not true in my district they changed their name from union rep to learning rep and it's not no no you you you can at that it's not before let's hear this out it's the number one focus of the teachers union and in the workshop where that was done what they worked on were all of the strategies and te techniques to produce successful students the number one job according to my union president of the Union reps that are the learning reps in my district is student achievement and we work together to do that it's the most one of the most powerful forces in our district I've great administrators and they work with teachers to produce successful students why would you want it any other way fighting each other doesn't work it's a dumb plan to fight each other and say one side's going to win and one side's going to lose I don't believe in that you you know you got to work together and if you don't it is never going to work that side said that you never Mr uh secretary Paige said you're never going to get a away do away with teachers unions he doesn't want to do that if that's the truth then we better start working together or we're going to die together I think if you if you look at the rather than Randy can you hold a minute because we just we've had quite a bit from this side and I will come back to you Terry Mo I indicated you could respond to this Terry Mo yeah I I just wanted to say that basically the teachers unions don't want teacher performance to be measured and uh they especially don't want uh any information to get out about how well teachers do um actually the the testing uh technology is quite sophisticated now um and it's possible you know not just to like do value added calculations for how much kids learn during a year but also to uh take into account through statistical controls student background characteristics how much students know at the beginning of the year so that you can control for that and so on and so it is certainly possible to do these things in a a very systematic and rigorous and Fair Way um and I think what we're going to be moving toward eventually unless the teachers union are able to block it is a system where we have information on teacher performance under a variety of conditions and we move towards transparency where it is possible to let people know you know what teachers are good and what teachers are not good because if teachers are not good people should know that so that they don't put their kids in those classrooms it's very important Randy wi Gart so R let me just bring in Rend wiart please gr there's no I'd like to bring Randy W Gart and then I'll come back to you I will so the the question is what the question I think John you keep on asking is um what's the teacher union job and if you look at the three of us and you actually listen to our members you're absolutely right we are paid to listen to our members because very few other people actually do listen to the voices of teachers there was a gat study recently that said that of 40,000 teachers that said that of overwhelmingly what they wanted number one issue is they wanted to be supported they wanted to be respected that is very similar to polling that we've taken of our members and very similar to what I see when I was the local union president where we have the most extraordinary people in New York City teaching in our our classrooms what we see is that members by a 4:1 and 5:1 margin have said to us they want us to fight for the tools and conditions they need to do their jobs and ultimately when we try to fight for budgets for schools when we try to fight for Equity when we try to fight to ensure that class sizes are low and that there's safe and reasonable environments for kids so that kids don't get bullied when in some ways we try to fight for the things that I know the Harlem parents have tried to fight for in the schools that they have that's the integration between teacher unions and kids all right rod Paige my comment goes back to the ranking of teachers and and I I'll admit that I could agree that there's no formal ranking of teachers but let me tell you there is a ranking of teachers while I served as superintendent of schools in Houston it was very clear to me that the kids know who the best teachers are they know who the poor teachers are the other teachers know who the poor teachers are they know who the bad teachers are too there's very much Clear ranking and this is not ambigous at all the ranking is there we don't use it in a fmer way uh to make policy but it they're ranked I'd like to go to another question before I do that just for radio I want to say the following we are in the question and answer section of this Intelligence Squared us debate I'm John Donan your moderator we have six Debaters two teams of three debating this motion don't blame the teachers unions for our failing schools to another question right down front and then I'll start moving to this side can you please rise thank you hi my name is Alexis moror and I'm a sophomore at Princeton University and the vice president of students for Education reform and this week I'm here with a group of 15 undergraduates who are studying education reform here in New York City can you can you get to your question please yes half of us are tutoring at Paul Robson High School school which is slated for closure um and last year robison's fouryear graduation rate toward 40% please to get to your question okay and the UFT has come out in opposition to the closure of the school which would open up new options for people in that neighborhood and those students this question goes to um the side for the motion why come out against the closure of a poor school thank you thank you do you feel you had enough information or did I suppress too much I think none of us have enough information about the specifics I probably have more than the rest of us but I don't um Let me let me tell you about two other schools that I know about well um meaning I don't know about I don't know about ropon but I do know Randy let's let's move on um with respect to your question and I did push you to cut to the chase I I think there wasn't enough information and I don't think the panel's familiar enough with it so I'm going to move on but thank you very much to this side right down front and if you could stand please and could you wait for just one second I want to make sure the camera finds you my name is Denise for just one second okay thank you my name is Denise Saul and I too am a teacher I taught in public and private I'd like to know how many teachers there are in New York state and how many teachers were fired this year and one other part of my question how many Union people are in this teachers union people are in this audience first let's answer the first question I'm going to ponder the second one I mean I wish I was actually um so you want to ask how many um you know the problem I have with asking how many unionized teachers are in the audience is I'm not sure how to ask the other side of the question um and we're open to everybody and if there's a notion that the audience is packed that's not not something we can control um so I'd rather not have an identification let me just say there was no attempt on any of our parts to either pack the audience or to um give people invitations other than the six or 10 that um invitations that I received so um there's no there was no attempt to do any of that now having said that but there's a suspicion which is interesting which which no seriously Randy which I which I think goes to what the the tone of of a lack of trust is well but I think that the the tone um what I have experienced in terms of New York City is that in a um most teachers right now as we're speaking are at home actually grading papers and marking lessons and frankly from my perspective when I was the teacher Union president here I never actually ask people to come or pack an audience or do these things from my perspective I can't talk for other than myself in terms of the question about firing what tends to happen in the teaching ranks is that there is a huge attrition rate of teachers and so you have essentially half the new teachers within the first 5 to seven years actually leave the profession because it is such a tough tough tough place to work and whether it's because they don't get the support that they need or a variety of other things whether it's salaries or other things what you see is that you use both the statistics of how many people have ATT tried out and in New York City last year my understanding was that about 30 to 40% of the teachers um or about 30% of the new treaters ATT Tred out within the first 5 years in terms of firing I don't know what the statistic is but I will tell you in terms of the peer intervention process and program that we started in 1987 first under my predecessor Sandy Feldman and then myself we actually counseled um hundreds of teachers out of the profession who we thought after we tried to help them we're not up to Snuff let me come to Larry sand yeah i' if you send me an EMA email Thursday morning I will get you an answer to your question I'll give you an answer to a question though that you didn't ask which was how many teachers got fired in New York state excuse me New York City and in 2008 it was 10 out of 55,000 does that mean that there are 54,9 190 competent teachers in New York that actually is not Larry that's actually not true there were in 19 in 2008 the last year I was here there were over a thousand teachers that were terminated for lots of different reasons d did you want to continue your point I want to ask you whether that question was a plant or not no it never I'm joking do do you want to continue your point uh I have very different statistics than I think you made it uh I'd like to go a little farther up black T-shirt can you rise and wait just a second you're in a little bit of Darkness so it'll take the camera a second to adjust and uh they they found you thank you go ahead sir uh first of all Mr sputz thanks smuts I'm sorry thanks for sharing your ideas about the uh Union in your area I'm thinking of changing my name to handsome genius and see if that uh works as well for me as it did for you but my question for is for um the union Representatives here is you know you you keep making the case that uh we should uh be listening to teachers and that the uh everyone's thinking about the best entrance of the children but shouldn't we be listening to parents first and not absolutely so why are you standing in the schoolhouse door and stopping parents from having the choice of where to send their children to school Kate mclin can you take that one and again I I firmly admit this I am a Lowel girl and I don't know everything that goes on in the big wide world but our public schools in LEL are all choice schools there are no neighborhood schools where a a city of a little over 100,000 people we have 23 schools um and parents choose it used to be based on themes much like the magnet schools but unfortunately with the high stakes testing the themes have gone to the Wayside and all of the well-meaning grants with mandates attached so I can't speak to that but the parents do have the choice so I actually am a parent of a l Public School child um and I went to the central office and registered him I put down my top three choices for schools um very much like what you're all advocating for and that's our public school system and that's all let's from something our Union supports my district has 29 regular K12 Kindergarten middle and I mean elementary middle and high school went at Del school where schools of choice we have onethird of our schools are magnet schools parents can make choices every school in our district has a School site Council where parents are represented uh the school board parents from the district is a very powerful influence in our school district as it should be um and we we have board advisory committees that are made up of all parents in the district that report regularly let me ask Rod Paige what do you hear what do you make of what he's just saying now well I'm not sure what how to what to make of that actually you're saying that choice is good yeah yes I want to hear plenty of that and and we've had choice I was in elementary school in the L Public Schools we all believe that public school choice is good and we have never I I know there's an issue here in terms of what must be going on in New York City right now because obviously I feel the heat in this room about that but ultimately we believe in Far broader choice and that every parent should have a a public neighborhood School in which to send his or her kids and then ultimately have the broadest possible choices New York City has actually the broadest high school choice program of any school district in the nation Terry Mo look this is all in code right so basically the unions are in favor of choice as long as the schools that kids can choose to move into are unionized and so they're all in favor this is just true so they're all in favor of public school choice right and that means what what she really means is moving from one regular public public school to another regular public school they're all unionized they're all under the contract right charter schools are public schools right but the unions have done everything they can to keep the number of charter schools down everywhere right car smuts Gary smuts respond well we don't have any charters in our school district nobody's anybody that's applied uh trouble is they had the couple that did didn't adopt the California state curriculum and that's a requirement California there's Charter Schools I just started a whole bunch up in Los Angeles uh charters in Southern California aren't don't aren't that particularly Terry's bottom line point was that when teachers are talking about Charter Schools uh and schools in general they're all for change in choice but not if the school is not unionized do you think that that's a fair it's a little hard in California because we're a teacher Union state so other than the Catholic school Catholic School System second second largest system in the country I take total exception because my issue as a union leader about Charter Schools if they are public schools and this is my experience as a teacher and hearing from the other teachers why is it when a child needs an outside placement that cost over $100,000 the charter school sends them back to the public schools to pay for if they are a public school they that is their student they should support but to the point do unions only want unionized schools unions no let me ask Kate because she's in midf flow here is as a union leader I see what collective bargaining does for a school in a school system is that a yes I yes no it's I I think it's a complicated question to answer honestly no to answer honestly I believe in unionism and I believe that a lot of the charter schools are for profit and I think that unions help keep the ideals of American values in our schools that is my americ Val actually I want to come to you Randy but I want to give Larry a chance just to keep this even handed I in addition you're talking about Choice it's very interesting in the big cities 40% of public school teachers send their own children to private schools which are not unionized what does that tell you Randy Wine Gard last the last year I was in the United States Congress about 35% of the United States Congress sent that children to private schools also Randy weart I don't the overwhelming number of teachers opt to join a union because whether it's in New York state or other places everyone has a choice as to whether or not to join a union and ultimately people um Randy they Excuse excuse me let's let Randy finish her point and I'll come to you R legally everyone has the choice in New York City they have the choice all over the country they have the choice they may not have the choice about whether or not to pay for the services the union renders but they have the choice to join the union and in New York City 96% of the people who teach in New York City opt to join the union now the issue around the country and I believe the same way as Kate I had lots of opportunities in my life to do lots of different things I chose not only to be a teacher but I chose to be a union representative ative I chose to do this because I believe in my heart and in my soul that what unions do for kids and for teachers as well as for working people is to lift all boats I said this initially I said we are not perfect just like superintendents are perfect secretaries of Education aren't perfect presidents of the United States of America aren't perfect but at the end of the day if you look at the historic record when the unions had the kind of clout they used to have in this country we had a vibrant middle class what we are trying to do as a Trade union movement is to ensure that kids get the services that they need and to ensure that teachers get what they need to do a good job Terry Terry Mo the last part of that c can that not be true in fact okay no but but respond to her Point well what what was the point that you want me to respond to she made a lot of points her last point was that that that creating a situation where teachers are protected and comfortable safe and Kate had also earlier made the point uh safe from various kinds of uh uh vicissitudes of vicissitudes of uh of administration that they can take chances in the classroom that they can do all of those things if they have some sort of protection and there's a logic to that and I would like you to respond it all right um I I think that uh first of all there are laws against arbitrary treatment um against discrimination and so on that just apply to workers generally and so what I would like to hear is why it is that teachers are so vulnerable to these things that they're a special category of people in the United States that that they of all these people deserve to have a job for life so that they can't be fired for incompetence well teachers should shouldn't have a job for life and they should be fired for incompetence the issue and I said this a couple of months ago in a speech that neither you nor Larry nor rod have actually acknowledged in the um in in the work that you've or the the um statements you've made today we want to have valid and reliable evaluation systems teachers do not like when they are just simply thrown the keys and told do it there are many of us when we first started teaching who had real frustrations in terms of not being able to connect to kids not knowing how to do the things we needed to do and ultimately what we yearn for is to have real development and evaluation um programs and in fact Larry I said just two months ago student learning must count as part of teacher evaluation and ultimately what the ABC school district is doing what actually the central fall School District was doing before the teachers were fired in Mass was to try and create these evaluation systems that Arie Duncan and I have both said are really required Terry Mo or do you Terry do you want to seed to your partner Larry because Larry I thought you had your hand up if I'm wrong uh well I was actually lar I was going to address another issue of ry's that she made earlier or sure okay remind us briefly what it was well she said 96% of teachers I believe choose to be in the Union in New York is that I'm saying in New York City right okay if you're interested in real choice for people who don't know New York is a non-right to work state which essentially means you have to join the Union as is California that's actually not true L okay let me finish Randy please in California you pay $1,000 a year to the union it's actually even a little more than that if you opt out of the Union you don't get a choice to opt in if you opt out you get back about $300 $700 still goes to the union whether you want it or not it's like getting a divorce from your wife that you never wanted to marry in the first place and you're still paying alimony let's go to one more question um on this side yellow shirt and I really hope it's good because you might be our last question and make it a question um if as everyone stated on this side of the table that the real um meaning or purpose behind the unions is to look out for the kids if something were to benefit the kids in any of your school districts but it meant approving a salary reduction would you vote for that salary reduction a lot of unions have done that and what we're seeing is um what we've seen is I know I've negotiated when I was in New York City as did my pre predecessor Sandy Feldman we negot negotiated deferral agreements we negotiated we just negotiated changes in pensions in order to save money for kids I know Randy I want to move on we take your point that the answer is yes it does happen purple sweater yes I'd like to address all three to the panel again on which side so ma ma'am which side to the side against unions okay um if you could discuss who are The Gatekeepers to who become teachers because it is not the unions and how do you feel about charter schools using public spaces and Larry Bob's movie the cartel also implicates state government but Mr Paige I would dare say Mr Bush's friends the CTB mcroy Hill testing company may be a cartel that benefited from NCL being most I I'll can you rephrase your first question please the first on your list can you rephrase that how do you feel about who are The Gatekeepers to who become teachers it is not not the unions okay I think that's the most relevant to our topic does anybody who will be if you have a problem who do you go to is that your question no Ian who's the gate I don't understand what who how do they become the Ed Board of Ed let them in the people who are bad teachers some of them are apparent when they go for interviews some of them are apparent on paper I've seen we have the question who gets to choose who gets in as hired as a teacher not the are you saying if not the unions or it's not the it's not the union all right I think her point is that the Bad Teachers aren't because the unions are there the bad teachers are in the system because the school administration hired them in the first place therefore bad teachers are not the Union's fault Rod page yes yes uh making these decisions are really difficult decisions and we want uh the universities to do better we want the administrators to do better but once the situation has been proven that this is this is a sub power teacher then we want to have some system to remove the teacher from the environment because we know that is not a good idea to have a teacher who's not competent in front of children that's the only reason for that another question I think we have time for one more um green sweater so I I guess one of them is a very quick question only one question okay choose um so we talked a lot about uh unions defending teachers who we thought were were less than competent uh is it the fault of the Union that they're defending them and availing them of their rights or that there's a system that means that they're actually successful at doing so good I I I I actually didn't understand the question but but I think there's something there and I want to make sure our audience I I guess the question would be we don't blame defense lawyers for defending their clients because we have a good judicial system that allows for prosecutors and and and defense lawyers similarly should we blame unions for defend for availing themselves of those rights to defend their constituents and not the syst let me take take that and then sign and I thank you for that question because that was the biggest myth for me as a new teacher I I too thought oh you know teachers unions keeps Bad Teachers around and as I became a building rep and uh you know now the vice president I've seen these cases actually pan out and it's exactly what you said due process is not an easy thing to defend to to people and it it's like you said I mean the the defense lawyer didn't murder the person but somehow it seems that unions are taking the wrap for the actions of someone else when they're actually defending the due process and in in the actual case I I'll give you an example this is what floored me when I learned about this you I'm sorry can I just say one thing you can't grieve opinion so in in the case of an a principal writing something um and giving a teacher an unsatisfactory teachers unions can only talk about the procedures that happened we actually can't defend the work of a bad teacher we defend procedure which is exactly that point made and Larry sand okay very quickly to answer your question sorry yeah they act as defense lawyers I agree with you but they also make the rules they make the laws so seems to be a conflict of interest it is not and that concludes round two of our debate thank you [Music] okay here's where we are we are about to hear brief closing statements from each of our Debaters they will get two minutes each after that you will be asked to vote on where you stand on the motion this will be your last chance this is we will be their last chance to change your minds on our motion which is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools we asked you to vote before the debate began and reminding you of the results we got the motion don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools those for the motion who stand by teachers unions 24% those against the motion who blame teachers unions 43% those undecided were 33% we will ask you to vote once again and pick the winner right after the closing statements which will begin now as we start round three closing statements two minutes each and to lead off against the motion Larry sand retired teacher and president of the California teachers empowerment Network okay thank you John and thank you Mr Rosen I think this is a wonderful form and I'm very appreciative to be a part of it yesterday March 15th was a Day of Reckoning for many teachers across the country um in a bad economy that's when the letters of possible layoffs also known as riffs reduction and force notices go out to all teacher go out to teachers who might be losing their job in my school's retirement uh lunch last June excuse me there were more than retirees saying goodbye we lost several of the hardest working most effective and popular young teachers on campus several teachers we all know who they are the kids know the parents know the teachers know should have been the one saying goodbye but because of the Union mandated seniority rules they weren't as a parent a grandparent or just a fair-minded person don't you want your child any child to be taught by the best teacher not the longest employed teacher of course you do but that is not what happened in my school and other schools around the country yes the teachers unions are not the only problems with public education today but the extent of the damage they have caused cannot cannot be exaggerated in closing to show you how twisted the situation really is what could be more Preposterous than this well they go to Great Lengths to keep the Mr x's and other sexual predators in the classroom the union hounded haime Escalante one of the greatest teachers of our time out of the classroom and more recently destroy the hopes and dreams of thousands of poor children in Washington DC please join us in sending the teachers unions a resounding message and vote no on your ballot thank you thank you Larry sand our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools and summarizing his position for the motion standing by teachers unions is Gary smutz who is superintendent of the ABC United School District in California ABC unified pardon me let me let me reintroduce it so I have it correctly did I say ABC News it comes out sometimes Gary smut superintendent of the ABC United School District in California did I get it wrong you got it wrong again but that's okay you know why cuz I'm reading in correct Cy ABC Unified School District we were separate school districts we all came together all right superintendent of the ABC Unified School District in California thank you thanks for the correct accountability Innovation standards high achievement teacher training teacher performance measured by student achievement these are Hallmarks of the modern teachers union now some teachers unions aren't modern but those that are do these things it is implied that the teachers union or non-un is the only variable here and they've tried to use weasel words to get out of that all not all of them or some of them but the case is if you look at the proposition you have to blame teachers unions I guess in each and every case you have to deny poverty poor budgets lack of Parental support poor boards poor State leadership poor superintendent you have to say none of those things count and only teachers union counts they know that's not true and they've said so so you can't blame just blame teachers unions and you know that there's a lot of reasons schools don't work and it's not just teachers unions Professor Mo said that teachers unions are ma major obstacles to school Improvement everywhere not in my district so the proposition isn't true in my district it isn't true in Kate's District it isn't true in a lot of districts and you got to be fair about that it it's not true in a lot of school districts Professor Mo pointed out principles 90% of them said they can't get rid of bad teachers that's not a very good system why not work with teachers unions to get rid of bad teachers that's what Randy wein Garten wants to do um magnet schools work better than Charters I'm all for magnet schools but the AFT is not against magnet uh Charter Schools either Larry Santo is a lot of stories from band camp I don't think that that's a good reason to say teacher unions are are are bad by sharing horror stories individual places throughout the United States being a superintendent is a hot sweaty business and it's hard enough doing it by yourself but I'd much rather work as a superintendent with my colleagues from the American Federation of teachers to increase student achievement thank you Gary smithz our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools here to argue against the motion blaming teachers unions is Rod page former US Secretary of Education and co-founder of the Chartwell education group but I think I want to I want you to be clear we all know that teachers not teacher unions are not solely to blame for our failing schools we we could never argue that what we are arguing is the way the motion is is is put this the only option that you have in order to express the idea that teacher unions bear significant responsibility for the inability to reform our schools now and so we encouraging you to to vote no teaching unions draw their ability to serve to protect the interest of their members from their ability to convince the public that they are really about the kids they are very good at hiding their real intent they draw that power and ability to get the public to believe that there are some persons in some groups that they are not they are not who they say they are who they say they are is not who they really are who they really are are Mammoth organizations highly financed the most powerful political organizations in the United States of America so you need to see them in that way and we think they deserve you vote against a motion because they do bear significant responsibility for the conditions of our schools thank you rod paig summarizing for the motion standing up for teachers unions and arguing against our motion don't blame teachers unions for I'm sorry arguing for our motion don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools Kate mclin and elementary teacher in L Massachusetts who is Executive Vice President of the United teachers of L number 495 which is a local of the AFT thank you it's interesting because I can't help but take this personally because I am a union leader and I am a proud Union member and I'm telling you that I'm speaking with the utmost Canda that the kids come first to me and to my union president the union are the PE the members the people in the union they they are not these powerful organizations that secretary paig will have you believe yes there are there are political implications to what we do because we are advocating for the things that our children need stable housing health care and access to great and wonderful schools so I would ask that you see the people on this panel is people who are actually doing this work on the ground level and working with our administrations to make our school systems better we are the conduit for our teachers our teachers tell us what they need in their classrooms and we collect this information and we work together with our superintendent and other central office Personnel to make it happen that is the purpose of the United teachers of LEL there are other aspects to what we do yes we protect due process rights yes that is one area but what we do is maintain an attractive profession so that we can get the very best teachers teaching in our schools for the benefit of the students thank you thank you Kate mcin arguing against the motion arguing that teachers unions are at fault Terry Mo the William Bennett Monroe professor of political science at Stanford University and Senior fellow at the Hoover institution all right well I think it's important here at the end uh to just focus on the big picture uh and the big picture is very simple and it's very devastating you know here's what it comes down to the teachers unions are by far the most powerful groups in American education and they use their power mainly to protect jobs and what they say is that there's really no conflict between protecting jobs and doing what's best for kids but there are conflicts lots of them and as a result we can't get bad teachers out of the classroom the schools are burdened with truly perverse organizations and fundamental reforms good reforms that make sense for kids are resisted and undermined and weakened so these are just basic facts our opponents say that they want reforms too you know that they want to get bad teachers out of the classroom heard that several times you know that they want choice that they want accountability and my response is hey it's 2010 you know where you been you know if you wanted to get bad teachers out of the classroom why didn't you do it 30 years ago you know why do we have all these protections and state laws why weren't they aggressive about it 30 years ago why are we even talking about it now right same thing with choice and accountability they could have been aggressive in supporting these things pushing for more Choice pushing for accountability the the reason we don't have them is that they've been opposing them right so again what counts is not what you say it's what you do right so here's the bottom line you know you have an opportunity to show tonight where you stand and so you can send a message about this issue to the unions and you can send a message to the nation as a whole so please do that you know please vote no on this proposal it's important thank you Terry Mo our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools and finally to argue for that motion standing by the teachers Randy wein Garten president of the American Federation of teachers the country's second largest teachers union when I think about what we're doing here tonight um I don't think about it as a debate on this motion and who wins or loses this motion I think about the kids that I taught at clar Barton High School I think about the millions of kids in this country who but for public education will not have a chance at life I think about the thousands and thousands of teachers who are isolated in individual classrooms and who frankly have no interest in the status quo and who join a union or stay in a union because they want voice in how their kids get a decent education I have been in three schools a week when I was the president of the United teachers in New York City and I have been in over 50 places in the United States in the last year and a half since I've been the president of the American Federation of teachers I wish I had that magic wand that would magically help all of our students achieve to the global standards we wish right now what I can tell you the folks are on the other side of the stage and the folks in the audience that this Union under our watch and you see the examples from both what Gary said happens to be the superintendent of the year in California as well as what Kate says who every single day is teaching children as well as doing her Union work we want what children need we want to make every single school a school where parents want to send their kids and Educators want to work and we've learned a heck of a lot in the last few years about what works for kids how to ensure that we have well supported and well prepared teachers even if we have to do the hard work of saying to people you don't belong in this profession how do have an Engaged curriculum how to work with parents better what we and how to make sure that kids have the decent services that they need Randy W Gart your time is up well we're asking thank you very much and that concludes this intelligence us debate and now it's time to learn which side has argued best we're going to ask you right now to go to the keypads at your seat it will register your vote and we're going to get the read out almost instantaneously our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools if you are for the motion if you stand with teachers unions or at least don't blame them push number one if you are against the motion you do blame teachers unions press number two and if you are undecided remain undecided or became undecided push number three and while that's happening and while the votes are being locked in and tabulated the first thing I want to do is thank our panel for an amazingly impassioned and informed debate you're all trtic and i' I'd also like to thank those in the audience who came up with questions even those that we didn't use or that got chopped we we seriously we appreciate uh your willingness to be involved in this and for all of you for for voting and for for being part of the evening uh very vocally in fact so we're going to have to vote results shortly a few things I want to announce about what's upcoming our next debate will be on Tuesday the 13th of April our motion is organic food is marketing hype panelists for the motion are the director of the center for Global Food issues Dennis Avery Missouri fmer Blake Hurst and former chairman of the UK's food standards agency Lord John Krebs against the motion our executive chef and co-owner of blue hill and blue hill at Stone Barnes Dan Barber Consumers Union senior scientist for policy initiatives or vashi rangan and Vogue food critic Jeffrey Stein garden the motion for our May 11th debate is Obama's foreign policy spells America's Decline and Debaters for that are being booked and will be announced soon individual tickets for all of our events uh can be found at our website and at the skirball box office make sure to become a fan of Intelligence Squared us on Facebook and you can receive a discount on upcoming debates all of our debates can be heard on more than 200 NPR stations across the country and you can also watch all of our spring debates on Bloomberg television air dates and times can be found in your program and don't forget to read about tonight's debate in the next edition of Newsweek and to pick up a current copy of Newsweek on your way out all right it's all in now um our motion is don't blame teachers unions for our failing schools if you're voting for this motion you're standing with teachers unions or at least not blaming them if you are against the motion you do blame teachers unions for the failure of our schools remember we had you vote once before and once after before the debate 24% of you were for the motion 43% were against and 33% were undecided after the debate 25% are for 68% against and 7% undecided decide against the motion wins congratulations to them thank you to all of you from me John Don van and Intelligence Squared [Applause] us

Channel: Open to Debate

Views: 31,960

Keywords: Intelligence Squared, IQ2, USA, America, Education, Students, Teachers, Unions, Kate McLaughlin, Gary Smuts, Randi Weingarten, Terry Moe, Rod Paige, Larry Sand, American, Schools, College, University

Id: aCdP2C5130k

Length: 114min 8sec (6848 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 21 2011