- I wish there was just more compassion. No, we don't wanna make
something difficult. We just wanna be acknowledged. My daughter was a victim,
and she's being punished. (suspenseful music) - Hey guys, welcome to another episode of The Wednesday Checkup. Sorry we're in the crazy furry rug space here today at YouTube, but I wanted to get this
video out as soon as possible. When I heard that there was a video made between anti-vax and pro-vaccine folks, I decided to watch it
and give you my reaction live right here first time watching it. - I'm Bob Sears. I'm a pediatrician. - A pediatrician who's anti-vaccine. Interesting. - It is passion is just to help encourage a full, complete, informed
consent for vaccinations. - Doesn't sound like he's anti-vaccine. He said he's in favor of informed consent. I think all doctors,
at least they should be for informed consent. Curious where this is going. - Well I was vaccinated as a child, but my last vaccine was about 15 years ago when I returned to college, and I had a severe
reaction in that I became arthritic in my hands. Went to many, many
doctors, and nobody knew what was going on and
why it was happening. And just shrugged like
it doesn't make sense, you're too young to have arthritis. And it wasn't until having
kids and digging into my own research for them that a lot of answers started coming up, and I think it's unfortunate
that a lot of it is overlooked. - I guess maybe I'll participate in this. This could be a cool way to do it. I am vaccinated. If I was to have children,
they'd be vaccinated, and I am a doctor who's pro-vaccine. Becoming an anti-vaccine activist based on your own experience of
having a negative outcome to a vaccine to me is not wise, and I'll point out why I believe that. If you look at the
statistical evidence between the harms that could come from vaccines, because there are some harms, and then you look at
what you're preventing, essentially what are the benefits? What diseases are you
preventing by getting a vaccine? There's so much benefit there. Horrible that the mothering activist had this thing happen to her, but it shouldn't be the
sole reason for why someone believes that vaccines are bad and that they're anti-vaccine. - I will acknowledge, of
course as a pediatrician, I know vaccines work. I know they give you protection. They vary greatly in
what that protection is. It's not like 100% magical
shield over you completely. - I don't understand
where this doctor falls under anti-vaccine, if that's his stance. - I think when you're
giving kids medication, you have to get micro about it. I don't think it's doing
your kids any service to just say vaccines
are all made the same, and they're all safe and
healthy and good for you. That everybody's benefiting from it, because--
- She's right. - That's false. It's not true.
- But we study them before we release them to the public. We study them, so we do know they're safe. That's the thing is we know-- - Safe-ish. They're safe-ish.
- well safer. - You know, being an intensive, I see the worst of the worst. And so seeing the other
side of kids who don't get vaccinated, I saw a kid
walk in with Meningococcemia, which I haven't seen in decades. He had all four limbs cut off. They had to be amputated
because it was all dead tissue. You forget how bad things
were before we had vaccines. - I'm really proud that the
intensivist took this route, because many times
sub-specialists will often run to talking about statistics
or studies and research, and to people who are not
of scientific education, it's difficult to relate to that. But when you tell a powerful
story like he just did, that really strikes the message home. That children are dying. They're losing limbs unnecessarily. I agree with the mother
on the vaccine issue. This shouldn't be a macro issue. This is a micro issue. Each vaccine should be evaluated, but the truth of the matter is they are. We don't just say all vaccines are good. We look at each individual vaccine. Each individual vaccine
has a different set of adverse reactions, AKA bad things that can happen as a
result of getting them. But again, the trade-off
in taking the risk of having one of these adverse reactions is the protection from the disease that we hope to prevent or
even eradicate at times. - I don't like the assumption that if a child is unvaccinated some how they are of risk to everyone. And also knowing that
vaccinated individuals can also be carrying
and spreading diseases. I think it's very polarizing
to separate the two as if, if you're vaccinated
you're totally fine. You're not risking anybody anything. - I disagree with her,
because if you're vaccinated, it doesn't mean you're not risking anyone. It means when you're vaccinated,
you're doing your job to protect those who cannot be vaccinated. It doesn't mean that
you're a great person. It doesn't speak to your
lack of ability to do harm, but that's not what the
point of the issue is. The point of the issue is if you choose not to
vaccinate your children, and you're okay with your child getting measles or one of these illnesses, what about the children that
have an immunodeficiency or have some sort of other issue that they can't get vaccines? And as a result of that,
your child then spreads a deadly illness to them and they die too. - Anybody could be spreading diseases, especially things like Polio and Pertussis that are not completely
covered by the vaccine. - Again, I agree that
not everybody's covered, but if you can reduce that
likelihood, why wouldn't you? - I started out vaccinating my daughter, because I believed all the
same things that you said. It wasn't until she had a
reaction and several reactions that I actually had to
look at it differently where I realized by continuing
vaccinating for her, that actually would hurt her. And yet everyone wants me
to do it for the population. - This is a very specific situation. This is where things get tricky. If you're having adverse
reactions to vaccines, I don't think there's
any doctor in the world who says continue getting
vaccines to protect all of us. It doesn't matter if the
vaccines hurt your daughter. In fact, one of the first questions I ask before I administer vaccines is have you ever had adverse events? What were they? And we investigate them
prior to giving vaccines. If your child for some
reason cannot get a vaccine because of adverse events, you fall into the population that needs to be protected
by herd immunity. - A number of families
who look into vaccines, they will decide to opt out of vaccines, because they feel they
are just not willing to risk the side effects. - But the side effects
are one in a million, one in two million, whereas the side effects from the diseases when I see all these outbreaks
and things like that, I'm gonna choose vaccines every time. - And that's, I think right there, is the disservice to this conversation, because it is a risk benefit analysis. And what's unfortunate is how
downplayed those risks are. I only started investigating vaccines because I ended up with a kid
with an autoimmune disorder. - Autoimmune disorders have been present before vaccinations were. What's interesting here
is, yes, it may not be one in a million or one in two million, or whatever the odds are. The bottom line of why it
shouldn't be an optional thing of opting out from vaccines, at least when it comes to public schools, is because a, herd immunity exists, b, it's my job as the doctor
to make sure the parent is giving quality care to the child. If the child had a broken bone, and the parent wasn't
adequately treating it and didn't wanna go see a doctor, and the child was suffering as a result, I can report them to
the proper authorities. It doesn't mean that
because they're your child, you can just do whatever. So by not getting vaccinations, it's medically and statistically proven that you're endangering your child to develop these deadly diseases. Therefore, we don't allow you to opt out. At least, we don't allow
you to opt out from schools, and that's sort of our
catch-all behind all this. - The one in a million
is not a real number. - It's really not. - And so the more that that is put out,
- It is. It's public.
- so people think that, No, it's not. Not when you're talking about the different kinds of reactions. - I think the number you're referring to is anaphylactic shock. Anaphylactic shock is, of
course, extremely rare, whereas when you look at seizures from the MMR vaccine are one in 3,000. - But again, this creates fear in parents. - Well we worry that those
on your side downplay those. - We don't necessarily downplay them. We weigh them against the
benefits of getting the vaccine, and if you're getting a
vaccine and it's preventing you from getting an illness, which vaccines have been
proven over time to do this, the one in 3,000 statistic
is difficult to conceptualize for a parent, because
they don't know how often the actual disease occurs. As a result of this, we as
doctors make the recommendation that taking the one in 3,000
risk of having a seizure is worth it to prevent this
deadly illness from happening. - I don't think it's an idea of downplay. I think it comes back
to what we were saying with the risk benefit analysis, and I think the data's very clear. - It's so hard not to talk about data when you're talking about
vaccines as a doctor, but unfortunately when you're
trying to influence someone and you're trying to change
their mind on something, it doesn't work well. And I imagine this is
gonna fall on deaf ears. - It's hard to trust someone who sees your child for
10 minutes twice a year. In the end, parents know
their children best. - I actually very much
disagree with that statement. The closer you are in
relation to the patient, the more likely that your
bias is gonna be at play. You're not gonna be able to
make an objective decision. This is why it's strongly discouraged in the medical community to take care of your own family members as a doctor. Because your judgment gets clouded, and you make bad decisions. - So if you were to come
to your doctor and say, "hey my child's acting differently "after this well visit
appointment; something's wrong", you want them to trust that you have an established relationship
and listen to you. - She's absolutely right. If a parent brings in a child and says they're acting differently, that's a huge warning sign. And any doctor that brushes
that off and says I disagree, that's a bad sign from a doctor. I would actually recommend
switching doctors, or in the room, if you're comfortable, pointing that out to the
doctor that you don't think that's the right method
and you're not comfortable. If they don't welcome your criticism or your thoughts on the
matter, switch doctors. It's really that simple. - My daughter has epilepsy, and in March, she was also diagnosed with
juvenile idiopathic arthritis. I went to the Rheumatologist, and the Rheumatologist said we're gonna put her on Methotrexate,
and I looked at her. I'm like Methotrexate? That's a chemotherapeutic agent
that kids with cancer get. And she's like yes, but
we use it in a low dose. And It doesn't cause harmful side effects. You have to trust me. I said okay. And I trusted her. And I am so glad that I did. Before all this happened,
she was a competitive gymnast and she used to walk
up and down the stairs like she was 90 years old. She couldn't hold a pencil in her hand. Now she's back on the
bars, back on the beam, doing things where my wife and I (coughs) never thought that she would do again. - I'm so proud of these doctors that they're coming in and really avoiding digging into data and
numbers and confusing and confounding the conversation further. They're telling personal stories. They're making it emotional. They're making it reasonable, because this is how you resonate
with another human being. It's not about pointing at a pie chart. - The people who refuse to acknowledge that vaccine reactions are happening or that the things that
happened to my daughter were connected because maybe
it was just a coincidence and I just needed something to pin it on, you are socially isolated. You can be isolated by your family, isolated by the medical community, isolated by society as a whole, because they assume you're unintelligent, uneducated, and irrational. - I don't think we should
become hostile to anti-vaxxers. I think the role here
is to be compassionate, and when a patient tells me something that I know to be misinformation, I don't get mad at the patient. The feelings that I get are
oh man, it's so unfortunate that you've come to believe that. And this is what I say
to myself in my head. How can I find a common ground between us so that I can explain to you
what's actually happening or what the right steps
are to fix this situation. I think where hostility
really kicks in is not when a single person refuses to
vaccinate their children, but when they become activists to try and encourage other people to not vaccinate their children. That sort of misinformation
spreading is really dangerous, and that's where it deserves
to be struck down right away, because if you're not gonna be talking about quality evidence, you're not gonna be talking
about expert opinion, you're just doing a huge
disservice to a lot of families. - I have a great deal of
compassion for the families that had children die
from preventable diseases. There shouldn't be any hostility. There should be discussion. I mean, we can always question things. That's how we evolve. That's how we get better. If we didn't question anything, we'd be still in the dark ages. - Huge fan of that doctor. I'm glad they did this, but I am also gonna be a
little bit of a skeptic here. The people that were invited
from the anti-vaccine side were very reasonable. They were very logical. They talked about their own experiences. If they invited the
people that are shouting in front of doctors offices, if they invited the true activists that think doctors are killing people, if they invite some of the people that email me telling me
that I'm killing babies and that I need to watch
certain pieces of propaganda that they're spreading around, that would have been a totally
different conversation. It would have been hostile. It would have been explosive. The only way that we can
control this situation is by educating those people
that are in the middle ground. Not by telling them what to do, but by educating them, by explaining look how horrible it was
before we had vaccines. Talk to the WHO, and let
them tell you how many lives are lost every minute when children don't have money to get a vaccine. We are blessed to live in
a time and in a country where vaccines are made affordable to us, made available to us. In fact, we have a program in my hospital called Vaccine For Children that if you don't even
have insurance coverage, we still get vaccines for these children. These are government-aided
programs that are not for-profit. They're for protection of children. That's what vaccines are all about. They're about protecting children. They're about making sure that we get the best outcomes possible. And we continue to monitor this. If new research occurs that
vaccines have a new side effect that we weren't aware of,
we take this into account, and we update our recommendations. But as of right now, the benefits outweigh the harms when it comes to vaccines, and you should vaccinate your children, just as I will mine in the future, and I recommend the
same to all my patients. If you're still curious to
learn more about vaccines, click here for my vaccine video. As always, stay happy and healthy. (slow tranquil music)
Can we all agree not to call this a debate? There's no need to legitimize the anti-vaxx movement by acting like they deserve a seat at the table.
If laypeople have questions about vaccines (or anything to do with medicine) that's completely different -- doctors should always welcome questions and respond with evidence in the most relatable way possible.
Unfortunately, because science isn't designed to commit to options with 100% certainty, anti-vaxxers abuse this truthfulness to push their uninformed views. Don't give them the opportunity to do so.
I think the original video, while good in theory, does more harm than good. You're taking a fringe idea (and don't let anyone convince you it's not fringe) and making it seem like a 50/50 thing. "Look, half the people don't agree with vaccines! And one's a doctor!!!"
There's something like a 1-2% rate of not vaccinating and it needs to be presented as such, not as a co-equal idea. The more voice you give it as a legitimate viewpoint, the more people are going to get drawn into it.
These people shouldnt be given a platform to spread their horseshit. This video will only create more antivaxxers.
I'm still conflicted between the MLK Jr and Malcolm X approaches to combat the anti-vaccine pandemic.
Peaceful, empathetic discussion didn’t eradicate small pox though. Military style kicking down doors and forcing vaccinations on tribal people at gun point in South Asia eradicated small pox.
We have tried explaining things scientifically. We have tried explaining things simply. Maybe mockery and shaming is what will work. It’s worked with tobacco.
presenting anti-vaxxers as a "the other half" idea is super misleading and dangerous imo. it's 1-2% of people that are an extremist group bordering on being a cult.
otherwise i'm glad he still has a good message and a large following.
Fuck this shit. Not vaccinating your kids should legally be child abuse, that's it. When kids start dying, we are way past being reasonable.
The original video is total garbage. It isn't anti vs pro
No thank you I prefer the ZDoggMD video I posted (but nice jab with that title)
I have personally taken care of a 9 month old that passed away from measles during residency. Too young to be vaccinated, who relied on the protection from others.
I've dealt with dozens of anti-vaccine parents. Not vaccine hesitant, but crazy, militant and completely illogical. There is no middle ground for discussion, they don't care about facts or reason.
I am 100% on board calling these people out. It's not just their health, or the health of their children but a public health problem. Anyone who thinks "talking will fix this problem" is painfully ignorant of reality, and most likely has limited experience dealing with anti-vaccine parents.
Take care of a dying child from a vaccine preventable disease and you get back to me about being gentle handed with these lunatics.