Do we live on a young or an old earth? - Ken Ham vs Jeff Zweerink

[Music] well today on the show we're asking do we live on a young or an old earth Ken Ham and Jeff Swarek join me on the program today Ken Ham is the founder of Answers in Genesis in the u.s. one of the leading organizations in the world promoting a young earth creation view the view that everything was created in six 24-hour days and that the earth itself is only about six thousand years old ken believes that both scripture and science affirm that view while ahead of the u.k creation mega conference on the 24th of october ken is here to debate the theology and science of young earth and old earth creationism with jeff as wearing jeff is a senior research scholar with reasons to believe it's an organization well known for defending an Old Earth creation view Jeff is an astrophysicist by background and he believes that both scripture and science support the view that we live on an old earth in an old universe and his new book escaping the beginning confronting challenges to the universe's origins is available now if you want more on my guess I'll make sure to leave details on today's show over at premier Christian radio com forward slash unbelievable and I'll make sure to announce the web sites and where you can find out more towards the end of the program as well ken and Jeff thank you so much for being with me on the show today I'm excited to talk about this subject let's start with you Ken you've never been on the show before but I've wanted to have you on for some time tell us a little bit firstly about your own background did you sort of grow up in a Christian environment and was the young earth creation view one that you held from early on well I grew up in Australia Australia is a fairly pagan culture probably less than 5% go to church but I had a mother and father who's still in the authority of the word of God so right from a young age I was taught God's Word and I had a father who was always researching what the liberal critics were saying what people were saying to try to undermine the authority of the word of God so for me the issue has always been one of what does God's Word say cuz you know God is the only one who knows everything he's the Infinite Creator God and I always put his word above man's word and so as I grew up and had to confront issues like evolution from pastors teaching in church that you could believe in evolution millions of years and so on from going to school and being taught in the public school evolution man from ape man and the millions of years and so on I was always judging what was stated there against the authority of the word of God and also understood that there's a big difference between what you can see in the present and what you can't see in regard to the past and so I always understood that from an early age and so you know my my views of what I believe about the history of the universe are based solely on what scripture clearly says because God's the only one who was there who knows everything so it's on the basis of the authority of Scripture and understanding God created in six days I had a made on day six and then those genealogies you know Adam had a son sale to news 130 and set that aside keener so it goes on and you can do those specific genealogies that you can trust because in the New Testament Jude says you know Adam was this that you know it was the seventh from Adam for instance and so it's on the basis of that foundation of the authority of Scripture that I build my worldview and then look at the origin and history of the universe well we'll obviously get into the specifics of that as we go along ken many people will know you of course for things like that well-known debate you had with Bill Nye out in the States and of course for the Ark Encounter which has been in the press a lot in recent months it's a sort of life-size model of what the ark might have looked like and so on it's it's essentially a sort of a theme park that people can actually walk around there I remember there were some stories recently about the attraction seeking compensation from insurers for for rain damage that obviously generated a lot of sarcastic headlines what's actually going on with that story are there any updates on on the Ark Encounter well first of all you know in America the president actually coined the term fake news and most of what you read about Answers in Genesis and the news media is fake news and so even that particular story there was so much about it that was just wrong and it's actually a little battle we've had with our construction insurance companies going back to the construction of the arc and groundwork that was done and a certain section wasn't done as it should have been done and because of that we claimed put in a claim against our construction insurance and of course eventually that becomes a public a public issue because of the courts and so on and so the media took it up and made all sorts of claims it just simply weren't true it's no big deal at all and there was no damage to the arc or anything like that it was just an area where the where the the ground was consolidated and things weren't done as they should have been done but that's that's all that was right and and in terms of the attraction itself how is it done as it proved popular with the public oh absolutely we've had millions of people come to the arc in fact the Creation Museum has had over 4 million people come there and the arc itself has been open for just over three years and there's well over three three to four million people have already been through the arc and they pour in daily thousands pour in every day from all over the world it's a great way of impacting people with the truth of God's Word and the saving gospel because that's that's our whole motivation is the proclamation of the gospel we're evangelistic and we do what we do to help people understand the history and the Bible's true that's why the gospel based on that history is true that's what we do at the arc that's what we do at the Creation Museum just before we come to Jeff you're coming over to the UK for the UK creation mega conference in October Jonah just briefly sketch out what was that'll all be about sure October 24 to 26 and of course people can go to Answers in Genesis dot org to get all the information but myself and our molecular geneticist dr. Georgia Kernan dr. bode Baulkham will be there we also have professor Andy McIntosh and Stuart Burgess many people in England the United Kingdom probably very familiar with them as well as Steve Taylor dr. Steve Lloyd and Paul Ghana as well and Simon Turpin who actually heads up the Answers in Genesis ministry in the United Kingdom and Europe we'll be actually doing a number of different presentations in relation to this issue of the importance of the book of Genesis foundational to our doctrine science and the issue of origins and the age of the earth and dealing with all those sorts of topics it's going to be a great conference and our conferences are usually packed over there people are so hungry for the truth of God's Word they're tired of all the compromise in the church in regard to the Word of God on this issue okay well more information on the UK mega creation conference add Answers in Genesis all good time to introduce our other guest on the show today Jeff's we are Inc senior research scholar with reasons to believe Jeff welcome back to the show Jeff tell us a little bit about your background when it comes to your your views on creation what what happened there did did you grow up with one view and did that change over time well I didn't grow up in a Christian home my parents actually became Christians at a very young age for me and just Christianity pervaded our house how to know God and to follow him I personally became a Christian as accepted Christ as my savior in the fifth grade and in a wanna program but really where I began to own and just really grow in my faith was after a summer mission trip I took after my senior year at high school just learned about how to share the gospel and really got me interested in studying the word and knowing what's going on and so as I was going through college probably my freshman year I spend time reading in Genesis and footnotes in my Bible said hey these are gotta be 24 hours and very similar to Ken it's like what what scripture says that's what I believe that's where I live that's that's what has the authority and so if that's what the Bible says that's where I am and so for a fair fraction of my college career I was a young earth creationist because I thought that's what the Bible demanded what I say you know so I am very much agree with Ken that the scripture has great Authority and we need to buttress and argue for that because that has ramifications throughout the world if you will where I would differ or where my journey takes a little different turn is that as I was looking into this asking that question what does the Bible say about how old things are I realized that the church has had an ongoing discussion about this that there's well that that 24-hour day position is certainly a well founded well articulated well motivated biblical positions that there are other Christians who hold the Bible in high regard hold to the inerrancy and authority of Scripture who say those are longer periods of time and so as I was wrestling with that I realized I needed to be charitable to Christians who can just differ on this and as I was studying that my preparing for my scientific career I realized that as I tried to integrate what I was finding in creation with the Bible that an Old Earth position did that the best and allowed me to worship God with my with my heart soul mind and strength and just to glorify and understand him and to proclaim him to others and so that's kind of why I've landed on an Old Earth position is because I think there's room in the church we in the church we have a disagreement on how old things are and in terms of being able to live that fully committed to God life that Old Earth position just makes that the the best and easiest way for me to go out and proclaim his glory look we're going to get into the meat of this discussion very shortly with Ken obviously responding to that kind of view of an Old Earth theology before we get into that I know you've got a book either come out or coming out very shortly Jeff called escaping the beginning now you've been on the show of course to talk about this in the past with people like sky dive Phil and others the idea of the Big Bang cosmology whether it suggests that there is an actual beginning to the universe scientifically speaking it's subtitled confronting challenges to the universe whose origin now we're not going to get into this in any great depth I'm sure on today's show maybe we'll we'll get you back for this but what just briefly what's the book about and what can people expect when they pick it up it's a book about what are over the 20th century 20th 21st century what are the scientific ideas that have weighed in on whether the universe has a beginning or not and what are the things that the Bible is definitive about and I think this is one area where if there not a beginning to the universe that's gonna make it really hard for the Scriptures to be correct and so I think that's what we're gonna find but it just wrestles with you know are there ways to make the universe eternal can the universe have a beginning without a cause what does quantum gravity say it's just an exploration of those ideas and an articulation that what I found as I studied those ideas is that though scientists have come up with many ways to say the universe might not have a beginning it seems like the universe keeps pushing us back to this idea that it actually began to exist and that's consistent with what the Bible said for for millennia well really looking forward to the conversation today on the show if you want to leave your thoughts on anything that said on the program do email in unbelievable at premier dot uk' you can also get in touch via our website premier Christian radio com forward slash unbelievable check out the social media as well you might want to leave a message that way at unbelievable jb4 twitter facebook calm and believable jb if you want to get hold of me on facebook well today on the show we're asking do we live on a young or an old earth it's an important question it's a scientific question a theological question two people with very different perspectives on this Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis and Jeff's we're ink of reasons to believe joining me on the program today and just to the outset here Jeff's already been starting to talk about Big Bang and and that way of looking at the universe ken I mean as a young earth creationist do you do you kind of are you skeptical of all of Big Bang cosmology in that sense which in a sense talks about a universe that goes back nearly 14 billion years what's what's your view on that well first of all Justin personally I don't like being called a young earth creationist and I'll tell you why because that implies that our whole emphasis is young earth I want to be called a biblical creationist because our whole emphasis is what does the Bible say because the Bible is a revelation from God now as a consequence of taking God's Word I do believe that the universe is not billions of years old do believe it's 20 thousands years old we can discuss why that is so but again this emphasis on are you young earth you you old earth see that's not the issue the issue really comes down to - what do you believe the Bible says and for instance if you take BIGBANG now you know here's the interesting thing big mankind cosmology comes out of secular cosmology and it's based upon naturalism and it has a particular view about me if you want to put it in just a big-picture perspective you know that you have the Stars before you have the Sun and then you have the earth as a hot molten blob they didn't see any of that I mean you say it's a scientific issue and you go to the AG earth what do we mean by scientific issue in regard to age I mean you don't go out and see age you can go out and see metals and test them you can go out and see layers in the Grand Canyon but you don't see them being laid down and you don't see the age and universe you don't see it forming God said in his word that he made the earth first covered with water and the Sun Moon and stars weren't made until day four there we are the Big Bang can't be true if you take God at His Word in Genesis and Genesis is written as typical historical narrative with the barb consecutives doesn't have the parallelism of of the Psalms it's not written as a poet in a poetic form and so when you take God at His Word in Genesis then you know Big Bang cosmology as portrayed by the sakura's and by the way those same secularists that are out there saying that there was this big bang as I said based upon naturalism would reject of course believing in the virgin birth I'm sure Jeff believes in the virgin birth I'm sure he believes in the resurrection I'm sure he believed Jesus walked on water but these same people would would reject all of that and the point I'm making is we don't take man's secular ideas and try to fit them into the Bible we take what God's Word says in judge man's ideas against that thank you very much what's your response to that Jeff do you believe that firstly I suppose Genesis does require us to take it as six 24-hour days with those things happening in in that order in Genesis and and what and what do you do with with what you believe is I guess it's the secular evidence for the old age of the universe you know III think that is probably the biggest place where we disagree is not in whether we're taking God's were God work God at His Word it's where we're asking the question what is God's Word saying there because I very much agree that I take God at His Word and what he says in Genesis 1 I agree that's a historical account and it's a sequence of events that happen where we differ is on what are those words saying and what what is it communicating as the actual history there and you know I I am a trained scientist which means there's a lot of things I know about how science works and how to articulate that but I'm not a biblical hebrew scholar and so i am left to go and ask of the people who are who hold scripture in high regard who study that what do they say and i agree that there are people who say yeah these are 24-hour days there are others who say no these are not 24-hour days there are longer periods of time for this reason or that and this is the sequence of events and so what what i what i will do is i will go and look and say what do those conservative Biblical Hebrew scholars say and I find that there's a range of views in there that no one it doesn't demand the Bible the words of the Bible do not demand a 24-hour day that's evidenced by the fact that you've got so many Christians who are passionate about the inerrancy and authority of Scripture who have a different view on that and you know I do think it's interesting that you can seem to characterize all scientists as naturalist whereas what I would do looking at the scientific data I say okay scientists are trying to understand there are some that are naturalist there are some that are Christians all of them are out there working what do what is it that it says and how do I discern what is the truth and what God is revealing through his creation so you know what a part of why I think Big Bang cosmology is sound is that I know people who are Christians who think that's the best explanation for the scientific data and I know naturalist source think that's the best explanation for the data and the fact that you've got these two disparate worldviews that agree on that is remarkable to me especially when I would argue that it accords with the way the Bible describes creation so I think you know what what I think to me the biggest difference between what I see Ken Ham and I are arguing it's not on the authority and inerrancy of Scripture it's on what is Scripture telling us and how do we properly interpret it go ahead Ken you know one of the things that we need to understand here is our approach to Scripture and you see if we take Scripture as written for instance you know it's all very well to say well there's these Christians that say this as this Sakura Cersei that my response to that is what does God's Word say and let's take the word day for instance the Hebrew word for day the word yawn it's actually used 2301 times in the Old Testament and you know it's interesting outside of Genesis 1 I really don't hear people arguing about what it means you know and Joshua marched around Jericho and today we know what it means in fact if you look up Hebrew dictionaries like if you look up the lexicon by Brown driver Briggs which is a well-respected Hebrew dictionary it gives you a whole range of meanings for the word day the Hebrew word yawn but the example of it being a 24-hour day of an ordinary day they actually in hittin that particular Hebrew lexicon give you the days of creation and then if you look up a more modern Hebrew Lexington like Seco LaVon Gartner it actually has a number of headings for the meaning of the word yawn and it actually has number to day of 24 hours and the example is Genesis 1:5 the first day of creation and the reason is because when the word day the word yawn is qualified with a number or evening or morning we have the phrase evening a morning or qualified with night it means an ordinary day and in Genesis 1 that's how it's written and it's very obvious that those days are ordinary days which is like so does 20 verse 11 the basis of our seven-day weeks is in 6 days God created the heavens and the earth and rested on the seventh day and so we have a seven-day week which is based upon Genesis but when you take God's Word as written look any word can have two or more meanings depending upon context you know we can say we're sitting at the back of a hall and we have our back against the back of a chair and we have a sore back and we came back after a break we know what the word back means because of context it's the same in in the Hebrew language the word day it depends upon the context and it's interesting to me that oh we argue about the days of creation why not about all the other times the word day is used and the reason it's argued about in Genesis because people want to try to fit the belief of millions of years into the Bible and you know for the first eighteen hundred years of the church it was almost universal that they believed that the universe was young thousands of years not millions of years was only when based on naturalism the idea of millions of years in geology became popular in the 1800's that many Christian leaders started to fit the millions of years into the Bible and that's been the problem all through the history with the Israelites trying to ad got man's word into God's Word undermining the authority of the word I'm a passionate for the authority of the Word of God and that's why I stand where I stand I mean we'll get just a response on on the issue of whether those days you know why he thinks that they can be interpreted differently from 24-hour days just before we get to that I mean when it comes to the scientific evidence that you say comes from a naturalistic kind of perspective and bias I mean what it appears to show us even without kind of necessarily going to the Big Bang Theory itself is the idea is we look at light which is hitting the earth and it appears you know to all intensive purposes to have been traveling for millions of years already by the time it gets to us and a lot of people would say you know aren't you disregarding just the plain facts in front of you if you then still insist on an universe that's only several thousand years old when we're being hit by light that has been traveling for millions of years what's your response to that is it it is could could science ever in any way go against your particular position on on the Bible in that sense ken well first of all what facts what facts are you talking about in regard to light I mean how much do we know about light do we know everything there is to know about light do we know everything there is to know about space no we don't we don't know that at all and besides which if you take those same assumptions and apply it to the Big Bang idea you you only have enough time to get that light halfway across the universe you've got to get it out through the whole universe for the microwave background radiation that we see that's fairly even you've you've got to actually have inflation theories or super inflation theories or whatever to try to do that but see the bottom line is we don't know the processes God used to create light we but he finished his work of creation so those processes that got the universe to the point say on day four where you have the Sun Moon and stars and we know that light was seen from that from the Sun Moon and stars because they were for signs and for seasons on the earth the processes God used he finished he's no longer using those processes and it brings another important point that I brought up at the Bill Nye debate in regard to what you're saying there you know can can science have a show that your view is wrong and fun and this is what we need to understand there is a big difference between talking about the past when we weren't there you don't have movie reruns of it and talking about the present where we can use our five senses in the present to investigate the world that we live in and we can build technology that's very different to talking about origins so when you use the word science we need to be careful because the same word people use for building technology then they use for talking about the past when you weren't there and you can't see it happening and you're interpreting things in a particular way I prefer to believe the eyewitness who doesn't tell a lie who's always been there than to believe fallible humans in the present who are trying to figure out what happened in the past without using God's work Jeff a quick response before we go to our first break and I mean there's a couple of things there obviously I think Ken's looking for more of a defense of your view that the days in Genesis chapter one could could be more than simply you know 24-hour days and and how you arrive that conclusion he thinks it's well established that Yom gets used as a 24-hour day in all these other contexts that match the Genesis context and and secondly this question of yeah the the physical evidence from the universe obviously ken says that we just don't know we're making an awful lot of assumptions and as far as he can see God's very capable of you know work you know doing what it you know he believes it says there in Scripture without there having to have been these millions of years in the past so a couple of points for you to respond there and then we'll go to a break and back into the conversation I think I would just say with with looking at the days it's like III agree that the 24 hour 624 hour day that there's a lot of people that have held that that that's a well motivated biblical position but I just disagree with Ken's assertion that with this is a settled thing that Christians have always thought this and the only reason to think otherwise is because we want to get millions of years in there you can go look at benjamin warfield and john calvin and agustín three pillars of the christian faith passionate about the authority and inerrancy of scripture and they all three held different views on what those length of days were in fact Agustin who has articulated much of Christian theology that we rest on today says I don't know how you can tell what these days are and so this idea that is just settled within the church and there's no really other way and the only reason you're changing it is because you want to insert millions of years that doesn't apply to agustin Calvin took that view I don't know that it applies the Warfield but it's not why I'm trying to do it either I'm trying to understand what's the best way to look at scripture to take scripture at its word so that I'm articulating what it says the best and when I look at how science operates and I agree there's things that we know in science well there's places where that we're still trying to figure out there's things that we know better things that we know less securely but I think this distinction between what I know now and what I know in the past when you really try and flesh that out that argument breaks down and we can discuss that more more in more detail if you want but you know I think there is a lot of solidity to how we can investigate what's happened in creation in the past especially when we're looking at it from an astronomy perspective just because it takes light a while to travel here so and in that sense do you think it would almost be it would appear that God was doing something deceptive if that light hadn't in fact been travelling for a long time in order to reach us you know I I think each what I what I found is that yeah I think young earth creationists wrestle with that and so I think you could cast an aspersion view and say oh yeah they're making God deceptive I do think they have to wrestle with the idea that we can measure how far away things are get good indicators of how far away things are and how long it would take light to travel here and there are lots of good evidences that light has been traveling for billions of years towards the earth and that's something it's not a passing idea or an obscure idea there's a lot of evidence that points to that being the case especially if you take the position which I do that God upholds creation so reliably and regularly that the laws of physics don't change in fact those laws of physics flow from how he sustains creation and so unless there was a change in creation things really are that far away in light has been traveling for that long we're gonna take a quick break and we'll allow Ken to respond in a short moment fascinating discussion today do we live on a young or an old earth you're an unbelievable Ken Ham and Jeff's we're enjoined me and do come back again in a short moments time the UK's favorite faith debate show is coming to the USA this autumn join me Justin Briley for unbelievable live in LA on Friday the 11th and Saturday the 12th of October we'll kick things off with the big conversation on Friday night a live audience recording of the show where Christian thinker and professor John Lennox and YouTube's Dave Rubin sit down with me to discuss is God dead a conversation on faith culture and the modern world then on Saturday I'll be hosting a team of Christian speakers from the UK and USA for unbelievable the conference la John Lennox Jay Warner Wallace Mary Jo Sharpe Ruth Jackson Brian Brodeur s'en AJ Roberts and Jeff vines will help you to make the case for Christ and have more confident conversations in a skeptical culture it's all happening at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa on Friday the 11th and Saturday the 12th of October book your place at an unbelievable dot live welcome back to the show do we live on a young or an old earth we're asking today Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis and jeff's we're ink from reasons to believe join me ken founded Answers in Genesis and really it is the leading organization in the world promoting what you could call a young earth creation form of theology in Ken's view it simply biblical theology gee but we've been talking about some of the reasons in the first half of why Jeff as an older creationist disagrees with the particular way Ken interprets the early chapters of Genesis and the scientific evidence for the universe so can I mean I suppose a bigger question here is what you know what what does this matter in the end why does it matter whether a Christian believes in an Old Earth or a young earth as long as we all believe in Jesus Christ his resurrection his forgiveness of sins what does it make a big difference ultimately whether we believe that the earth is young or old what's your view on that Ken well my view is this doesn't matter if we take God at His Word I mean doesn't matter if we take out of his word that there was fish this well of a man called Jonah and he lived in a fish for three days we didn't see it happen and yet we take God at His Word that it did happen if we believe God's Word I mean does it really matter if we take God at His Word that Jesus walked on water or that He healed the Deaf the lame I mean we take God had his word in fact it's interesting the secular scientists today would reject that Jonah was swallowed by a fish or that a man could walk on water and so it goes on but we take God at His Word and I take God his word in exactly the same way in Genesis in fact you know it's a Jeff talked about you know he doesn't leave those days and necessarily ordinary days even though he knows there are people in the church that believe them so my challenge to Jeff would be okay from the Hebrew word yawn you explained to me why the word day in Genesis one for each of the six days there's not an ordinary day because I've said to you when it's qualified by evening or morning number night you have the phrase evening and morning look up the Hebrew dictionaries they'll tell you that's when it's an ordinary day I mean elsewhere in the Old Testament it can mean time like in the day of the Lord in the day of the judges and and so on and and then the other thing that I want some specifics don't just give generalizations and you know you could quote Warfield you can quote others they're all fallible people too you know we need to judge what they say against the Word of God don't don't make humans the authority make God's Word the authority that's that's what it's all about and when it comes to the issue of millions a year say on this earth you know when you go back to seventeen hundred's eighteen hundred's Athey atheists theists who really wanted to explain the fossil record without God came up with the idea that the fossil record was laid down millions of years before man and many Christians have taken in that millions of years and tried to put a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 or the days of creation or or whatever it is but you know in the fossil record their fossil records a record of death but not just death disease there's diseases like cancer abscesses arthritis if all that existed before man then after God created man he said everything was very good so if you believe in millions of years you're accusing God of being responsible for death and suffering the deathless suffering and disease we see today is going on for millions of years the Bible says death is an enemy it's going to be thrown into the lake of fire it says it's going to be a restoration and the restoration one day in acts 3 for instance the restoration is not going to be a world of death and suffering it's going to be put back to what it used to be like where everything was very good there was no death in fact scripture specifically says there'll be no death no no crying and so on and so how can you have death bloodshed disease and suffering before sin it doesn't fit with with what scripture says which is why we would say the fossil record had to come after sin and that fits with the global fight of Noah's day it makes sense that that's the graveyard of the flood you see these layers all over the earth but of course reasons to believe which jet belongs to believe the flood was only a local flood they say worldwide in the sense of a known part of the world but that's not what scripture says scripture makes it very clear in Genesis the description that the highest Hills over the whole of heaven the mountains were all covered in water it was a global fight in fact God reminded us at the end of the flood that the rainbow would be a sign a covenant between God and man and the animals that he never again send such an event as that flood well we seen lots of local folks we haven't seen a global flood but it all relates to the gospel in this way death bloodshed disease and suffering is a consequence of our sin it's not God's fault it's our fault he stepped into history to suffer death on the cross to save us from what we did and if you have all this death bloodshed and disease and suffering for millions of years before man sinned that is blaming Jesus Christ our Creator for death blaming him for cancer no no it's our sin it's my sin it's your sin that's what's response came a great points a lot to respond to there Jeff maybe we'll start with that first challenge though from ken which is tell me tell me Jeff why you believe Yom isn't being used in this way that Ken obviously believes it is being used when it's preceded by a number or a night and day and so on to mean you know a 24 hour day do you want to kind of bring anything to the table there in terms of why you think that this is a legitimate case where your might mean a longer period of time in Genesis 1 so to two things I would point out one is what what what what I see it and again I've come to this as not a Hebrew scholar and so you know to wrestle with what does this mean that there are people who devote their lives to knowing how to properly interpret Scripture and so I there's a whole lot where I just have to take what they say because that's their expertise and they know far more than I do but I do know this that when when you look at the Biblical Hebrew you can go ask how many words are there and it's about 8,000 you can get that out of your Strong's exhaustive concordance and that the vast majority of those are proper names and that you know you get about 3,000 words and that for the whole of the Old Testament about 3,000 words and there's a lot communicated in the Old Testament yo you compare that with the English language where there are millions of words and you're either drawn to two conclusions one is that the biblical text is simple and I don't agree that with that conclusion that it doesn't communicate complex ideas or that word order and usage mean something and as I've looked the usage of day in Genesis 1 yeah there's some things that connect it with places others but it's also a unique usage and it's the time where it's describing God's activity and so in a language where different usage different context means different meanings to me it's that that to me says that there's something unusual going on in those days in Genesis 1 and I think that's what Agustin was articulating there it's like there's something unusual about these days for us to be definitive and dogmatic is is something we need to avoid and so you know beyond that we're gonna have to get into what is the all mean here in this and that would require Hebrew scholarship that I know is beyond me and so that would be kind of unfruitful but I I do want to push at one point that you know Ken said that we're trusting the authority of God's Word as opposed to what man has to say and and I think that that that sets up a division that isn't there because God's Word doesn't always tell us exactly what it means in fact we have to read those words and interpret what those words mean and so what I do is I look to the people who do hold God's Word in high regard who stand on the authority of Scripture who are passionate about inerrancy and I asked what do they say in their best understanding of what the Bible is communicating there and so it's not saying I'm putting man over God's word but it's just a recognition that we have to interpret what it says and that you know when you when I've as I've studied that the different people who've looked at that I find that there are places where there's great deal of agreement like does the universe have a beginning is what is the nature of Christ is he God is He Man all of those things they got this unanimity of views they're amongst those Orthodox conservative Hebrews biblical scholars whereas I find in this view I find there when it talks about the days and how long they are there's there's a diversity of views and that to me says scripture is a little harder to interpret there than then it's often given credit for I mean the second point that the kem made is this issue of death and disease being in the in the fossil record and as far as he's concerned that has to be a result of the fall must come post humanity but obviously in an Old Earth view humans show relatively late on the scene there's been a lot of animal death and disease up to that point how do you reconcile that idea of their having been lots of animal death up to the point where humans show up before presumably the fall as it were kicks in right and I would like to point out you know just some of the emotive language that was used because I think this is a complex topic that Christians have been wrestling with for a long time you know this idea that by having death before man's sin then you're accusing Christ of being responsible for death but that's very emotive language in some sense or and might my quest or my calm with that is kind of a theological one it doesn't have anything to do with the science if you will it's that you know I as I've read scripture that one what pervades Scripture is this idea of creation the fall Redemption and consummation that that's found throughout scripture that God has created this universe not just to create a perfect environment he created it knowing that there would be a fall knowing that he was going to send Christ to redeem us knowing that there's going to be the consummation in the eternal state in that sense in in that picture there's nothing that happens on creation that's outside God's previewer that surprises him and he knows before he creates the universe that humanity's gonna fall that death and sin and and all of that stuff that that looks very awful is going to be there so whether God created it a certain way and man fell and then it comes or whether God creates it and it's before man falls either way God's on the hook for that and it seems that scripture argues that in that God's sovereign and that that's that's the character of God that he created this universe so that even this suffering this disease and all of these things that really look bad and are hard to deal with they are part of his plan to bring about something that is so much better and so I get that there's this this is a difficult issue to wrestle with but just to simply say well man sinned therefore that's what caused all these things that theologically to me impinges on God's sovereignty which is something that I I that would bother me a lot because that now you're getting at the character of God yeah Ken I'm sure you've got a few responses to those points well yeah I mean you know Romans 8 makes it very clear the whole of creation grow because of our sin and it is groaning it is a fallen world there's going to be a restitution so if this has gone on for millions of years what did the fall do that's what I would ask Jeff and just not quoting from Scripture he's just you know what he's trying his best to somehow fit the millions of years with with Scripture and if you've got these beliefs he's something else to justify all of this and and I I got a couple of simple questions for Jeff that I wouldn't mind him answering actually can anybody actually know anything in scripture if they don't appeal to some Hebrew scholar that's what I'd like to know because if you're saying oh you're not a Hebrew scholar you don't know well what what can we know from Scripture tell me the passages were allowed to read and just read as is I mean you know are we saying that the average person can't understand Scripture I mean what does that mean God didn't make scripture understandable for the average person that that's a question I would ask and and I'd also ask this question and that is if somebody came to Jeff and said yeah and there are people in the church you can point to authorities in the church you can point to them in in any England in the church who will say they don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ or they don't believe in the virgin but there are people within the church that would say that what would your response be would you respond by quoting scripture or how do you respond to that if you respond by quoting scripture you mean you're using scripture and you're saying you know what scripture says I mean how can we know what it says about the resurrection we've never seen a resurrection how can we know that but we go to Genesis I mean for instance Genesis 1 29 and 30 says that God told Adam and Eve to eat fruit he said the animals were eating plants Genesis 9:3 says we weren't to eat we were told we could eat meat now after the flood which obviously we weren't mediators beforehand because he says just as I gave you the plants now I give you animals okay can I take that as written I mean when it says that God actually made Adam from dust does that actually mean what it says when it says he put him to sleep and made a woman does that mean what it says or do I have to find a Hebrew scholar to tell me what it really means I mean we when do when can I take God at His Word and when do when do we have to say well we can't do it we've got to appeal to these scholars to to tell us and that's a problem yeah go ahead Jeff but there's a dichotomy it's not when do I take God at work got his word and when do I appeal to the scholars is that when you look at scripture there are things that are that are easier to understand and there are things that are more complex and deeper to understand and that's I don't want to imply that oh you got to go look for a Hebrew scholar every time but to paint it as though Oh Christians have been unanimous everybody gets that these are 24-hour days that's just not been what the history of the church of people who've wanted to know Christ who follow him who are passionate about what is the authority of Scripture that's not been a uniform position and so where Christians in their plain reading come up with different views we've got to have some way to wrestle with and arbitrate that and so I think there there is a depth of Scripture that while you can't well there's a whole lot about Scripture that you can get about who God is and who Christ is or God that God is the creator which I think is clear out of Genesis no matter how you slice it because that's the main focus that there's room for places where Christians can disagree and we do have to wrestle and all I'm saying is that when we're talking about those days as I found that's one of those issues where Christians have wrestled with and come to different viewpoints there and I think that's significant and it and we need to not gloss over that and say oh this is just what this is playing from Scripture because it's not the history of what Christians wrestling with that passage of said and presumably Jeff by the same token you would say that something like the bodily resurrection of Jesus which I'm sure you do believe in is actually something that Christians can't simply agree to disagree over that's actually pretty in intrinsic to the nature of Christian faith whereas I guess you're willing to say yeah you can be a young earth creationist an old earth creationist even an evolutionary sort of theistic evolutionist and and still be a Christian even though you might disagree with the young earth creationist and the theistic evolutionist you still have a diversity of opinions and still be a Christian but maybe not on earth something like the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ I think that's an important point I appreciate you bring it up is I think there are things that if if as if you differ with this particular view you're changing the fundamental nature of Christianity and so you know you get the bodily resurrection the virgin birth God is creator the new heaven new earth all of those things that if you change those you've changed fundamentally Christianity whereas when we're talking with how old the earth is that's not something that you fundamentally change Christianity now when I I do agree with Ken though that where you get into what do we do with death and disease that that's a very complex that that's one of those issues where we really do need to wrestle and and work out because it does have significant and big implications for who God is and who we worship so go ahead Ken yeah Justin his what I see that when it comes to Christians looking at the Bible the resurrection the virgin birth and Jesus walking on water you know the raising of Lazarus healing the Deaf and the blind the crossing of the the Red Sea the Jordan River Jonah and the great fish and so on we would never take what the secular world is saying and take something from outside the Bible and go to the Bible and try to reinterpret that I mean now there are some that new that say all science has never shown a resurrection a man can't rise from the dead but when we take Scripture as written we know what it says very very clearly but it's if I would challenge Jeff that he actually has two types of hermeneutical principles one for Genesis 1 to 11 and 1 for Genesis 12 to the rest of Scripture what he does in Genesis 1 to 11 is not take it as written which it you if you take it as written it's very clear I still come back even to the days of creation in context what is the Hebrew word in context actually mean according to the rules of Hebrew let's take it as written it doesn't matter what other people are saying that people will disagree with all sorts of things let's see why do we have different views of Genesis I suggest you it is not because of what scripture says but because that Jeff is taking ideas from the world and trying to justify adding that into Genesis 1 to 11 he wouldn't do that in the rest of Scripture and I understand that but there's a different hermeneutical principle here for Genesis 1 to 11 oh I see it in much of the church today and that is that we want to fit in what what the secular world is saying particularly in regard to the millions years look if you believe in thousands of years for the age of the universe like I do adding up the six days and the genealogies to going to Abraham and then to Christ and then to the present you'll be mocked out you'll be scoffed at you'll be called youbut you'll be attacked as an D intellectual and academic anti-scientific because the secular world has to have millions ears if they don't have millions of years billions years they can't propose evolution I mean you you've got to have the millions of years to try to propose something that for which you don't see happening today has got to have some ability to happen and so therefore it had to be millions years and because of that many people have really been intimidated and trying to fit those millions of years into the Bible and that's what I challenge Jeff with why is it that you don't have that human neuticle principle in the rest of Scripture but I believe you do in Genesis 1 to 11 and see think about it this way because this is the issue this to me is the primary issue there was a pastor once interviewing me on radio and he said now you can have different views about eschatology Premal are more postman in different views in the church about baptism you know sprinkling immersion different views about speaking in tongues Sabbath day and I said yes that's true and you said there's different views in Genesis same thing no it's not no because when we have different views of eschatology baptism and so on we're looking at scripture interpreting Scripture with Scripture we're primarily working from Scripture now is he somebody's wrong I understand that but that's what we're doing but the different views are Genesis because we're starting outside a scripture from the secular views of the day and trying to add them into Scripture and that's the issue it's an issue of authority and we when we have raised up generate our kids in our churches to tell them you don't need to believe what it says in Genesis you can believe what you're taught at school about millions years bigbang you can just reinterpret God's Word what happens is they push that door open further and further have a look at the church in England what five percent now attend church it used to be 40 to 50 percent have a look in America only 18 percent of Millennials attend church something is wrong in the church the church is not impacting the culture and I believe it is this issue of allowing the authority of the word of God to be undermined and particularly in this day and age it's it's the history in Genesis 1 to 11 Genesis 1 to 11 is actually the foundation for all doctrine it's a foundation for marriage it's a foundation for the gospel it's the origin of sin the origin of death the origin of clothing the origin of all is if if we can't take Genesis 1 to 11 as written tell me what do we do with marriage I mean Jesus in Matthew 19 quotes directly from from Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24 in dealing with the foundation for the doctrine of marriage and and so do we do it can you have take that as written can we believe that is written or do we have to have a Hebrew scholar to mentor as well as our abused or whatever yeah so there's my challenge yeah a lot of challenge there for you Jeff so I mean let's just take one of those with the time we've got left in this section of the recording which is the the view from Ken there that you're essentially simply imbibing a secular kind of view of science and everything and you know those secularists aren't going to agree with you Jeff when it comes to the resurrection of Jesus walking on water or anything like that are you simply accommodating your theology in your view of the Bible because you don't want to be ridiculed you know ken says they're the Answers in Genesis young earth creationists get get ridiculed all the time you know I hear many people talking about them as though they're akin to flat-earthers or something like that he says but you've got to take it if you're going to take the Bible seriously you can't just accept for the sake of you know feeling better about yourself these millions of years which you know if that's what's out there in the culture so what's your view are you simply you know acquiescing to to the views that are the mainstream views let's say in big-big because you you want to have I guess credibility in that sense as a Christian in those kinds of spheres no I'm not just simply acquiescing and you know like I said I started off my the show artists tell you know articulated it's like as I saw that hey this is what if if the footnotes in my Bible that these had to be 24-hour days were correct that's where I was gonna stand and I argued for that and I engage people knowing that I was had some issue or yo I was going to be scientifically uncredible in that and so I I wrestled and argued that position what really changed was not that I have a different hermeneutic because I approach all the scripts are the same it's like what scripture saying that settles it it's the authority what I'm asking now then is what how do we understand what scripture has to say and there's a lot that I can learn just by reading but I also realize there's a depth to scripture that I can never get because I just have not devoted my life to studying that and so in these areas where you know you're talking about various things one scripture talks scripture talks about how God reveals himself in creation and and I find it very interesting so this is my mindset it's not that I look and say okay well the the world says this therefore I need to make scripture say this because I can I can honestly say if if it comes down to the end of the day and the universe is only ten thousand years old nothing about what I'm articulating here today will change it just means that I was wrong about the timescale nothing about my hermeneutics changes nothing about my view of God changes it just means I misunderstood something but what I do find very interesting and it's it's the mindset that I think John had when he was approaching Jesus you know John the Baptist there he was gonna die on he was getting ready to die and he came and asked hey are you the one or should we wait for another I mean kind of a ludicrous question if you think about it because if anybody should have known who Jesus was it's John the Baptist but Jesus response to him was go and tell John what you've seen and heard and he gave him a list of evidence that the Messiah was going to do in other words Jesus responds to John was you you know what scripture says the Messiah will look like what does the data from the world say I am and John said yes you're the Messiah because they align and so as I look I say what does scripture say and yes I need to understand and recognize that but God's also revealed himself in creation and God by his nature those revelations must agree so if there's something in creation that says hey this is something to take consideration of I've got to go book and look and ask and say is this really a contradiction with Scripture or did I too narrowly interpret scripture and there's times where I found I've done that but it's I want to be be very cautious there it's not that I'm saying Oh science says this therefore I have to go reinterpret scripture because scripture is wrong it's this says hey maybe there's something where we've missed what's the proper interpretation so let's go back apply all those principles and see did we inadvertently over become too narrow and I think that's what happened in the creation days what I was doing with the creation days it says okay these have got to be because all these Hebrew rules but when I looked at what people who knew how to interpret scripture who understood all that there wasn't that unanimity of you and to me that says okay that's a little harder to interpret there's a little bit broader range than what I was wanting to say that those had to be twenty-four hours and so that's that's really what I'm articulating thank you very much Jeff we're gonna go to a quick break and we'll be back with my guest Ken Ham and Jeff's wearing talking about young and old earth views of the Bible and science this is unbelievable and if you want to get in touch yourself do make sure to email in unbelievable at premier dot org dot uk' and you can also find us online over at the YouTube channel Today Show available via YouTube if you want to go there do go to the website where you can find links to all of that and more resources from unbelievable that's that premier Christian radio com forward slash unbelievable and we'll be back very soon if you listen to unbelievable Justin Brierley on premiere radio and enjoy the conversations between Christians and skeptics then this is the perfect app for you for the latest updates podcasts videos articles bonus content and much more download premier unbeliever wat today [Music] really interesting discussion today on the program it's a classic one I remember doing this discussion actually a live discussion several years ago I think it was when reasons to believe were in the UK back in 2012 and I think it was Hugh Ross and trying to remember who who are younger representative was on that occasion Steven Lloyd I think it was at a church in Gunnar's Bree but anyway manok it's still a live issue and very important one for many Christians to to work out whether we take the Bible a certain way and what impact that has on the mainstream views of scientists regarding the age of the universe and the earth ken ham from Answers in Genesis has been supporting this this idea that the the universe and the earth are only around 6,000 years old that everything was created in six 24-hour days as it says in Genesis Jeff's we're ink of reasons to believe says you don't have to take the days in that way necessarily in Genesis he believes that it's perfectly consistent to believe in an Old Earth in an old universe so the the u.k creation mega conference by the way coming up the 24th to 26th of october if you want more info on that Answers in Genesis dot org can I mean you say the you know as far as you can see it's not taking the Bible seriously that has led to you know the collapse in church-going and so on in the West and and elsewhere and obviously you believe that what you're doing is is you know standing firm on the Word of God in that way I mean I have heard stories of people who have struggled to put together the scientific findings with a young earth picture of Genesis and when they've come across the positions like like Jeff's and reasons to believe it's it's been like it saved their faith they would say I am a Christian today because I was able to reconcile these two things and and as Jeff has said he doesn't believe that you have to have as it were have one or the other you can have both the the old the older universe and and a view of the authority of Scripture I mean what do you say to the person who says this you know the older view it did save my faith and and that actually they believe it's a good thing for the church in terms of it bring you know allowing people to have that space to to hold those two views together well you know Justin we have actually done real research using America's research group and we've had America's research group go out and find those Millennials in America that have left the chose two thirds of young people leaving the church in America at that time that reach college age are very few returning and keep in mind the majority of churches actually teach that you don't have to take Genesis is written you can believe in millions of years that is the majority view in much of the church and look what's happening two-thirds of young people walking away from the church and when we had America's research group go find those we wrote up all the findings in a book called already gone but this is real research that's been done and you look at what they said when when asked why'd you leave the church there are a lot of reasons but it really came down to issues of while you know science conflicting with the Bible or how can how can bad things happen you know if there's a loving God this whole issue of death and suffering is a really big one with them and then you know they had the many of their Sunday School teachers or Christian leaders will tell them they can believe in millions of years and they didn't see that in Scripture and and so on and what it really comes down to is this is that generations of these kids have gone to public schools most of them due to the you know in America we call in public schools but that means the government schools true and they taught evolution of millions of years and then they see the conflict with what the Bible is teaching but much of the church instead of giving them answers and teaching the authority of Scripture and teaching apologetics has allowed that compromise to stand and so they see the conflict then it undermines the authority of Scripture you can't deny the church the church in in in the United Kingdom is almost dead from a spiritual perspective you can't deny that you can't deny that the whole Western world was collapsing from a perspective of a Christian worldview and the compromise in regard to Genesis and I call it compromise it is compromise is rife in the church that is the majority view that's taught in the church so maybe the church better stand back and look at that and and by the way I do want to challenge Jeff on another issue you see he talked about the the creation revelation I know reasons to believe talk about you know the creation as the 67th book of the Bible and so on but you know creation is cursed it's under the judgment of sin the whole creation groans and man's interpretation of a fallen universe and trying to interpret the past in regard to things that's very different than a written revelation of which is god-breathed all Scripture is god-breathed this is the infallible Word of God as Paul says and Thessalonians it is in truth the Word of God that's very different you can't in any way equate the written revelation with the revelation of nature which is which is a result of God's creation and now suffering from the effects of the fall of sin and the curse the ground is cursed the Bible says that specifically in their thorns be because of sin if you were to look at at creation today you would say Oh Lord all the death and suffering and disease if that's on a par with Scripture then that's how it's always been no you use Scripture to understand why we have death suffering and disease today and I still want to ask Jeff the question you believe in millions of years then you're saying that God said cancer was very good because after God created man he said everything he created everything was very good if you've got diseases like cancer in the fossil record which there's many examples of you're saying God says cancer is very good no wonder we have a problem with young people saying how can you believe in a loving God you believe in all this millions years and death and suffering and children starving and dying has gone on for millions of years that's how God know that's a result of the fall Jeff give you a chance to for a final response before we go to some wrapping up between you both but yeah again a number of issues to deal with there there is this issue that that Kenzie's it that actually the reason we've had a drop off of young people is because they're saying well I I can't reconcile millions of years with with you know what what and that pain and suffering of that record with with a loving God I mean what's your view on that is is that the reason why young people are leaving the church would you say that because of these kinds of reasons that scans sketched out there and what do you say to this the this idea that God effectively blessed things like cancer if those are in the fossil record before humans you know existed and before you know they rebelled against God in that way yeah I guess I would say this in response to you know one I I as I've looked I know people I've been around that have wavered and walked away from the church there's a part to where the church just doesn't wrestle with the heart issues and I think there's a lot of questions about how do we wrestle with science what does this say what you know death suffering all those things and and it's my experience in the church has been that it's often difficult for the church to have those and so I think it's the lack of good answers to the questions or the lack of discussion that really gets at the answers to those and that's the tension I felt often in the church as someone who's committed to do believe that the Bible is correct I think the church is good and so I think there there are probably multiple reasons for why people walk away from the church and we're not doing a really particularly good job of passing on our faith to our kids if you will but but I guess you're going back to the question of death and suffering and whatever is going on there what I do know is this that when God pronounced creation good he did that knowing that Christ was coming and that sin was coming and every everything that was going on there there's no sense in which oh man sinned therefore all this stuff happened gets God off the hook for that and so whether it's a millions of years of it whether it's thousands of years of it whether it's since humanity or more for Humanity God's sovereignty demands that he's responsible for all of that and the answer to that or the answer to me that has allowed me to rest is that God knew all of that and was going to send his son which is arguably the worst injustice possible he was willing to subject his son to that because what creation was doing through the fall and redemption and the consummation was so much better than anything we can imagine and he invites us to be a part of that that that was good that's part of what it took for us to be a part of that that is a powerful and awesome message which as a young earth creation or a sorry it's an old earth creationists who believes in the authority and inerrancy of Scripture that's a message that I can just be passionate about going out and sharing with Christians and with non-christians because that's a great story that we get to be a part of thank you very much both for being with me on the show today find final word from you Ken as we close out today's show I mean I'd be interested to know just from a personal point of view how do you regard someone like Jeff or even someone who holds a theistic evolution dude do you think that holding that view actually puts you outside of the the orthodox christian camp you know or or can you ultimately differ on it like you might differ on baptism or the gifts of the spirit or something else or for you is this a what you might call a gospel issue in the end ken well you know the Bible says if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead it doesn't say you have to believe in six literal days and a young earth to be saved and so people would say to me so you can be a Christian and believe in millions of years well there are many Christians I believe in millions of years you can be a Christian and believe in evolution well there are many Christians who believe in evolution I'm not saying that Christians you put your faith and trust in Christ you're saved and and I Jeff has given his testimony of being a Christian and I would never even I want to bring any question to that but what I would say is that I believe that organizations like reasons to believe are undermining the authority of Scripture and they're contributing to what's happening in the church with generations leaving the church because we've no longer stood on the authority of the word of God and taught them the answers to what the world is saying so that they can understand that science observational science has not contradicted Scripture at all in fact we can point to the science of genetics and geology in many ways to show it confirms you can't prove in an ultimate sense but confirms the Word of God and look I can sit down with my children we have 17 grandchildren actually and I can sit down with them of all ages and read Genesis and you know what even the young kids get it they can understand because God has given a scripture we've got the perspicuity of Scripture we we understand that God has enabled us to read and get the message right there and if you just read Genesis as written put aside all of those outside influences just read it as written God created in six days he created Adam and and Eve on on day six he created the first marriage man sinned the first death was in God made coats of skins the origin of clothing for Adam and Eve but bud sacrificed pointing towards the sacrificed in Christ there was a global flood there was a big pool of Tower of Babel if you just read it through and take it as written and get rid of all outside influences it you you realize it explains the world as it is and you know we've had many many people come to the Ark the Creation Museum and suggest materials who say wow this has been a stumbling block to me to think you couldn't believe our Genesis and now to have these answers it's turned them around we've seen many many people converted people become on fire for Christ that's what we want to see give you the last word here Jeff and I mean I guess you've seen equally people who as I say feel like your view help them to put their faith in science and the world together as well what I guess and I'm sure in the same way you would say ultimately the issue is not a Salvation issue but it is an important issue in terms of ultimately whether people take Christianity seriously I do think it's I agree it's not a Salvation issue and I agree when you read through Genesis you see God is this creator this powerful being who who creates very systematically and orderly in a caring loving extravagant fashion creates Adam and Eve through which all humanity propagates the fall the redemption it's an incredibly powerful story of narrative a history that sets up and just tells us how important and how valuable we are to God and that's a message that I think both Ken and I can get on board with that we want to go tell people hey God loves you let's I want you to know him and and let's work through the issues and and let's spread the gospel and just tell people how powerful awesome and amazing gardius that's what we I think we can both get on board Lisa a sub measure of agreement right at the end of the program but thank you both you guys for for being on the show today Answers in Genesis org for more about Ken and indeed the UK creation mega conference in October Jess we Inc is over at reasons org if you want reasons to believe and his new book is called escaping the beginning confronting challenges to the universe's origin and of course you can get in touch with your thoughts I'll get out of the ways to get in touch very shortly and we'll hear some of your feedback as well on today's program but for the moment Jeff and Ken thank you very much for being with me today for more conversations between Christians and skeptics subscribe to the unbelievable podcast and for more updates and bonus content sign up to the unbelievable newsletter you

Channel: Unbelievable?

Views: 89,302

Rating: 4.4744081 out of 5

Keywords: unbelievable, justin brierley, premier christian radio, christianity, atheism, philosophy, faith, theology, science, creation, ken ham, reasons to believe, apologetics, bible, evolution, universe, young earth, debate, old earth

Id: aNmuB9EF_vk

Length: 70min 3sec (4203 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 25 2019