[Dialogue] Psychologic safety in remote collaboration with Gitte Klitgaard

good evening everyone and welcome to another virtual dvd my name is kenny basswegler schweigler or whatever language you're using hdd and today uh with me is marco who's gonna do the introduction hi good evening yeah hi um introducing half of the people in the room um thanks kenny so yeah marco heimersoft ddd enthusiast and a long time member of the virtual dvd community and our guest today is guide klitgaard i hope i pronounced that correctly an agile coach for the last 10 years and um very active community member and she's talking about psychological safety specifically in remote settings today so hi guido hi thank you for having me yeah very welcome well it was almost correct so it's fine i respond to most variations of my names okay how do you pronounce your name correctly just for future reference i'm going to try um so uh you're an old coach with over a decade of experience um what what brought you to psychological safety what's your connection with the topic and and um i've kind of i only discovered the term psychological safety three years ago yeah it must have been in 17 uh 2017 but i have actually worked with it for a very long time part of what i've been doing for instance i'm part of organizing the german agile coach camp and i've been involved in play for agile as well and one of the things that even before i was in the organizer team that i've been working with was how do we create a safe space or people how do we make it safe for people to to be there and especially like at a coach camp when it's once it's been running a few years there'll be some people who already know that and know the shotgun and we have internal jokes and stuff how do we make it safe for newbies for instance um and one of them is not calling them newbies because they're not new and agile um so basically i've been doing a lot of this where i've actually been helping people find that safety in one-on-one settings in workshops i have these rules that i use and because i find that if i can create a setting where people feel safe they can grow so much more they can talk to me more they can listen better as well as they can share better and it's kind of been a natural thing that i've been doing for a long time one of my friends says if i think of safety i think of you which i think is a big compliment um and i tried to do this and have i think most of my life actually uh even before i knew it was a thing um so like 10 years ago if you told me i would be talking about creating space i would say rubbish you know agile is about processes it's not about this hocus pocus yeah emotions and stuff right yeah emotions and stuff but more than like what is what does creator space mean because it's not something you can touch and sometimes it's not even something you can explain why does one thing feels safe and another space not yeah so what i find hard is to explain to people what psychological safety is it it often comes up in agile discussions because there's a lot of feedback loops and and agile works in safe environments better but what does safety mean specifically psychological safety why don't you call it emotional safety what's behind the term psychological safety well so psychological safety is actually a really old term well old it's um it's from 1965 where edgarshine and some other professors that i can't remember the name of we're looking into how do we create good learning environments and they found out that to be able to learn well we need a certain discomfort because we need to challenge ourselves and for that discomfort to result in learning instead of anxiety we need to have an environment that's psychologically safe um so it's quite interesting that this term has been a long been around for a very long time but it doesn't seem like it's really been picked up um the definition that i normally use um is from 1990 um where khan went in and looked at it and and his definition and also i mean amy edmundson who started talking about this in 1999 um have kind of the same definition i just like his wording better which i also can't remember but it it comes down to that you are not afraid to be punished for for in what did you say employing yourself sharing inside coming up with ideas so what it really means is you're not afraid to be punished to be yourself to speak up to make mistakes um and punishment interesting enough is um anything from being fired to people laughing at you yeah because our brain does yeah yeah so our brain doesn't always distinguish between how dangerous this punishment is so if you are afraid of that punishment um whatever it is if you're afraid that people will laugh at you if you come up with your idea you're afraid that they won't take it serious because maybe you just started in the workplace or um you you know you come right directly from university for instance and there's this person who's been working with that for 10 years and you come up with an idea do you really want to say that is your idea valid so psychological safety is an environment or rather the feeling that you can do these things without any repercussion without any kind of punishment um you said when you come from university i mean as a newcomer to a team it's really hard to speak up because psychological safety i think has to do with trust and it's really hard in an unfamiliar environment to to gain safety what do you think are there ideas of how to create safety as fast as possible and what's the shortest distance to come to a safe environment so if i go into a safe team that is really practicing psychological safety um what what can they do to give me a real sense of safety so that i am able to speak up when i'm hesitant at first well so um i totally recommend the ted talk that amy edmonton does and she talks about three things the first one is to frame things as a learning environment most of what we do we are not just producing something we are not you know producing the same thing over and over again we are learning so let's say you come into a team and there's some senior developer and and she will talk about you know what we're doing here is actually about learning the other part is showing fallibility so talking about her own mistakes the one that she's committing um and the last one is about modeling curiosity so being interested in that new person and talking about it um an interesting part the thing about asking for help for instance is something i found out i think i don't know maybe nine years ago that just explicitly talking about it in the team that it's okay to ask for help can really make a difference even though all of us know it's okay to ask for help um but but showing these things and i think it's that the thing is psychological safety is different from person to person you cannot just say you have a safe environment and it can even be different from context to context it can be different from day to day like if you didn't sleep at all maybe you have a young kid at home who is teething or something and you didn't sleep you're gonna be much more sensitive to any kind of feedback compared to if you had a good night's sleep but by being role models all of us because role modeling is not just about the official leaders it's not just about our managers and their managers or whatever it's not just about being the senior or whatever um it's all of us who are role models and modeling that you know talking about it when we make mistakes asking questions um and if somebody wants to share something listen to them and even though your idea might not be the best one and are not the one to be picked it needs to be safe to speak up um one of the things that i found friends with asking questions is that it's actually the senior people who found this the hardest because they are supposed to know yeah they have to lose more face value yeah i get that yeah so it's about you know creating an environment where this is okay so it's interesting sorry marco but my character there is always uh when someone poses an idea immediately ask the question to the group okay but who thanks right who who who sees it the same way so people can raise friends and immediately ask okay but who has a different opinion or yeah who thinks totally different tried to get that one out yeah and but that would only work if people feel safe yeah of course um you need to have show some leadership and show that it's okay to speak up in that just saying it doesn't mean it's there but it can be a good way of kind of you know getting people into the habit of making sure that you are doing this that it is actually okay to come up with totally opposite ideas um but it depends very much on the team some some teams would love if you do it this way other teams will be like well since we all agree why is he asking this question every time but then you'll probably need to look into if your team is diverse enough um but that's a totally different discussion yeah yeah some you said you can't just say a place is um is safe and so it becomes safe right um we had this interesting experience a few weeks ago where we had a discussion about team safety and psychological safety in our company and it's like the whole team agreed on yeah yeah we're lacking safety we need to do more about it which was one of the safest environments i've ever been in saying hey we don't feel safe and can we could do that actually that felt really good and then in the end the boss said i don't understand the problem my door is always open why don't you just come in and talk and that was the unsafe statement in the room so yeah by defining this is a safe space you can all feel safe now it actually manifested the unsafety because everybody else was just like okay and then left and there was no discussion left and there was no growth in there so uh it's really hard to come up with an idea of if if management level is not really into psychological safety how can you approach this how can you i mean convert them to think about it or how can you lure them into that um to get more of this if you lure them into that you're not creating safety yeah it's right safety has to go both ways yes it has to be safe for the leaders to be there as well of course and i think that one of the things for a lot of the leaders we still have today sadly or managers is that they are kind of brought up old-fashioned that to be a leader you have to protect your turf and you have to have you know you cannot lose face whereas modern leadership is more about sharing your turf and actually showing that vulnerability but a lot of the managers that we have are still be picked by managers of the old style and of course they're going to pick the ones that look most like them because that's what we do so it can be really hard to create that safety if you don't have it from the leadership level but once if they agree on it and and they hope they will also need help because the thing is we are not if you haven't heard about this before if you don't know what it is that's kind of step one like when i have introduced it the first thing that we have done is done an awareness workshop which is like what is psychological safety um the first time i did it we started out with amy edmundson's um ted talk about tedx actually but never mind but it's really good and then we wanted people to you know have something to relate it to because it's very fine that she's standing there she's talking about um the first time she found out was actually in medication in hospitals and stuff like that how does that relate to us so we had people in paris discuss five questions is what does psychological safety mean to me what is the situation where i felt safe at work a situation where i felt unsafe what do i do to help create safety for others and what have i done that might create unsafety for others and that one is a hard one because we don't like to think that we actually create an environment that's not safe but i think we all do that in one way or another that we do some things that to others might be something that can feel unsafe um like one of the things i often do when i'm working with teams is i want if they have action points i want deadlines on it and what some people hear is how fast can you do this where what i'm actually saying is i would like a a realistic time when you have that time to do this plus i would like people on it so if it's something that one person does i want someone responsible if it's something that the whole team does i like to have an anchor person who's kind of the one reminding everyone but to some people just the fact that i ask about you know what's the deadline for this makes them feel unsafe um so even if but yeah that was kind of just to show that's one of the things you can do but just having these discussions and figure out what it is and i think that if leadership is not on board yet you can create that safety within your team yeah true [Music] but but do you need to kind of they need to i think they need to be involved for it to be a true safe environment otherwise what will happen is it will be safe behind closed doors in your team and then you will still have to protect yourself from the uh for the outside which is um not good for us mentally either yeah yeah true so uh you said something interesting you said um when you ask for for a date um because then you can they hear the the oppression they hear oh now i have to hurry up we have to make the date this is about control and command right and and you can also mean it as a protective barrier like okay if you need three weeks i'm gonna protect you for three weeks from every other influence so this could go completely both ways it could be the safest thing or it could be an oppressive thing um how does how does psychological safety look from the outside how could you tell if you are not inside of a safe or unsafe team how could you tell um heuristically when you see a team oh this is an unsafe or a safe communication what are the behaviors that you find give it away so i find that it's really difficult if not impossible sometimes to see if if a team is safe actually i was just working with 3d svt which is the swedish public television and when she asked me to come there one thing she said was i think we have psychological safety but i also know that if we don't have it i won't know but i think sometimes you can tell it in in environments if they're unsafe stuff like um the way people talk to each other you know if they use something like you know someone asking questions and and people instead of answering goes like well everyone knows that for instance that's something that will immediately make it unsafe to ask questions um so so that could be one of the things if you hear people react that way um if everyone agrees all the time it's usually not safe either um i it's very rare that you have a team that is safe where there are no conflicts and i'm not talking about you know big comfort well it can be big conflicts i mean some of the people i've worked with where i've had true safety i mean we can we have had discussion so loud that other people thought we were fighting um because we both knew that it was about the topic and not about each other and we felt perfectly safe putting in our opinion yeah that we felt very strongly about yeah of course it doesn't have to be that strong but if you have teams where there's never any kind of conflict then it's usually because they don't feel safe enough to speak up so that that reminds me of group thing right we're not sure if you know the concept but group think is everyone thinks alike and think the same and the one with a different opinion is betting getting suppressed that's a nice heuristic i think if being in a team remote asking them okay we want to check at your value stream map while that's unsafe itself they're saying no nothing is the matter and everything goes on and then two hours later they have a lot of conflicts so it's interesting to first see them no everything is fine and no no move along then yeah i mean you can do some stuff like surveys for instance amy edmondson has seven questions and you can do that anonymously or you can do a check-in to see how safe do you feel about speaking up in this meeting i do that sometimes in retrospectives but that requires that people trust you yeah um so when we did it when i was working with morgan um at spotify what we did was we actually asked also the survey that we did we used the seven questions that amy also has and we made a google survey and we made sure the only two people had access to it to the answers was him and me so not even the tri-beats or anything because we not that we distrusted the tribe leads but we wanted to kind of show people that the only one who had access was morgan and i who had been working with people and where they had this this and plus we were both consultants so we didn't have any you know say over them we were not their managers um we had no hierarchy um to make it safer yeah the question there are seven questions yeah and you're talking about that talk is that a psychological safe workplace from amy eppinson is that the one you're talking about we'll add that later maybe yeah yeah okay so um are there would you say there are other degrees of freedom um like i mean there's not like a binary thing like you have psychological safety or you don't have psychological safety but um what kind of what kind of degreeish development have you seen in companies that you've been consulting well subs um i will just put up the amy admins and i cannot um do two things at the same time okay well git is looking for the link for everybody still joining or just joined we are we're eager to hear your questions if you have stories to share or if you have questions about psychological safety this is a psychological safe space i hope so feel free to ask them you can raise your hand and come and chat with us or you can write them in the chat room in written form anonymously if you like and we'll ask the questions for you um so please share your curiosity with us as well we we got someone raising a hand shall we uh pull them in yeah one second so um the link is just posted now in the chat yeah i posted the link i i can't remember the link to the google but if you go in and you look at google project aristotle you can find information about that cool so okay bonnie a hi bonnie hey yeah you know me kitta i know you good to almost see you i know right um it's odd to speak to a to a voice i guess it's like calling into a radio show yeah welcome to a radio show welcome to radio vdddd um so the so part of why i joined the is because of the remote factor of establishing psychology um i think there's something there that i'm trying to figure out how to help give mostly to help give other people ideas on how to foster it for their teams because my role as an agile coach um and particularly with we have hired a bunch of managers in the past couple of months and trying to get them all to trust each other that they can discuss problems when there's not necessarily any reason to get together informally in across time zones and in in remote settings so i'm curious if there if you have had some some thoughts on this yeah so one of the things we did quite deliberately so when we went when we went remote i was working with svt the swedish uh television uh while i was working with the i.t people um and one thing we did actually was to create these social settings and so the first thing that someone did that totally didn't work was to create an a meeting that was there all the time where you could go to the coffee machine and i think maybe during the first week four people went there at some point and that was it so that didn't really work out um but both in so all the teams that i worked with created their own like weekly coffee break with the team um and they did it quite individually so it was something that all of this kind of you know what i miss us talking together let's have this um there was department meetings um and also we did a kick-off um so the area that i've worked the product area i worked with did a three-day kick-off both in january and after after summer vacations and what we did this time was we wanted to focus on collaboration across team and we put in some social stuff because part of creating that safety is actually to get to know each other absolutely um so for for this one one of the things we did was a scavenger hunt where um and i do need to write that blog post because i i i'm it's almost done um but basically what we did was we divided people into random teams which is really annoying when you use microsoft teams because you cannot do it automatically so we use the random number generator and a spreadsheet but it's a different talk uh so we divided people into groups of five and gave them five things they had to find something red so like a normal scavenger hunt you probably say you need to find a very specific thing but because we don't know what people have in their homes we decided to make them more abstract so something red something round something that smells nice something soft and i forgot the last one but we gave them five things and then they had to create a story um with the five things in it and the five names that they would then share um after the break and um it worked and amazingly and some of the feedback that we got was it was a really nice framing of getting to know each other without talking about work where normally when you do this you start going like oh so what team are you on and what are you working with uh so this game of framing um i've also done things like uh market of skills um i don't know if you know that where you have um um it's somewhere on the scrum alliance you can actually look up how to run it but it's like you have a you say these are the things that i contribute with that i kind of know will give value these are the things that i also know i'm not sure if it gives value right now and these are the things that i would like to learn and everyone kind of either makes a poster or whatever and then people give feedback and the feedback they can give is i'm really happy that you know this you also know this but you forgot to say it and from the things you would like to learn i can help you with this um so again putting some of these things in that a little bit um on the softer side so to say more social things um and i've done this both with individual teams but also more department-wise we've also done exercises where i have like if you have three people together you ask them to um i wonder if i have a pic i don't know i'm not sure if i have a picture but you have like three people they have to find something that all of them have in common something that two of them have in common but the third one doesn't and something that's individual for each and of course it cannot be oh i work on this project blah blah because that means that people need to start discussing about things and and all of these are kind of building connections um but also in a company that i um well my friend you know morgan he also knows morgan morgan also that i've been doing all these things with he works in a company at the moment where they're very focused on psychological safety as well and we did remote workshops we've done four so far two hour workshops on awareness of psychological safety so that anyone from the company can sign up for this and the point of that is kind of to start the discussions of this like what does it actually mean how do we make it from being the nice words on the wall into being something that i can relate to my daily life um and then another thing that i haven't talked about yet is the difference between safety and comfort that actually safety is about creating an environment where you feel uncomfortable uh before you talk more about that would you say again what you and morgan did yeah so we um we have a session we start out by putting up some rules um and so everyone's remote morgan i was sitting together but but everyone was remote and up to 20 people could sign up and we started out by making a check-in um so that everyone says something in the meeting right um and even if they say pass they have still said something in the meeting which makes it more comfortable to say something later on um and then we sent them out and we talked a little bit about what is psychological safety just showing them kind of the definitions and send them out into groups with the five questions that i talked about earlier um you know what does it mean to me what is a safe environment to me uh what do i do to create safety or unsafety and have that discussion and then when they come back we have a discussion about that that anyone can share but they're also free to not share and if they don't share morgan and i share our stories and then we have moving moved into the discussion of comfort and safety and ask people to think about a situation that is uncomfortable but safe and what would make that situation unsafe um and for that we've done it we have this really awesome exercise that we do when we have people in the room uh but for the online one we made it a discussion where we first have two minutes of silence where people can think and then whoever wants to share can share and that's a two hour session where we basically discuss that and so i think we have now had 75 in our sessions out of 130 people wow um so it's it's it's not mandatory and but anyone can sign up for it oh interesting so it's basically like you offer like we you can do a two-hour session on psychological safety yeah then people up to 20 people can sign up at any any point and then you run them through yeah and okay that's that's really neat um yeah i completely agree about like trying to set up these so like the social aspects and some of it is trying to figure out which things work and which things yeah yeah oh i did this really i was like so sweeties have this term called fika which basically means a coffee break but it's very important to them when we had to kick off i'm kinda like well we have this coffee roulette which is basically uh and if you want to on any day you can sign up your add yourself to a slack channel that's called uh fika oletta which means coffee break roulette and then when the coffee break is there you will be paired up with a random person and i was like oh this is an amazing idea i'll do that for the kickoff days and not a single person signed up for the three days and i was like but this is such a good idea and the feedback that we got was that when you have something like a kickoff where you're on screen most of the time you want your breaks away from the computer whereas if you have just your normal life where you are not in meetings and you sometimes sit with a computer sometimes you shouldn't do something else then it's okay to have these coffee breaks with someone yeah so that totally didn't work but we did have a lot of fun and i emphasized and i appreciated people for not feeling safe enough to not sign up okay so thank you very much bonnie uh is your question answered uh it's a wonderful start as always thank you so much wonderful you're welcome thank you um so get it i was thinking while you were talking about these um fika breaks um when you do a workshop like a remote workshop where people sign up for a certain amount of time um it's one thing to have like like a an exercise where everybody introduces themselves but when you do a collaborative modeling session with a group of people that has to work on a product for a longer time like not a workshop but like their regular work they have to work now remotely instead of in person um what i felt is really really hard is when you are in a room with people and there's 10 15 20 people in front of a wall as a facilitator or even as just a member of the group it's easy to perceive body language and then posture and distance to people and tone of voice and all those things and you get small groups interacting all the time but when you're in a remote session and you only have one zoom stream and there's just a short idea i want to talk to you and it's there's this barrier this big hurdle of how can i quickly just say a sentence to you with with all my emotional uh truth behind it like convey my posture my my everything else um how do you how do you keep up this level of safety because i think it's necessary to have this physical human connection to create safety how do you emulate that or create that in a virtual environment when everybody's remote yeah so what i do whether i'm remote or not is i have this set of rules that i talk to people about um so if i would do a session uh like yours i would do some different roles but like the ones i do on psychological safety um i i go to these rules and rule number one is it's always okay to pass which means that if you don't feel comfortable speaking up that's okay because you're more important than this workshop try not to judge so when you're listening to people when you're talking two and two try not to judge these things but also try not to judge yourself so if you feel safe or unsafe in a situation that is okay because our feelings are always okay our actions might not be but our feelings are okay um the vegas rules you cannot share outside this room unless you explicitly agree upon it so these are the things that i've been been using um and then i talked to them about the reason when i do psychological safety workshop i explain to them not just the rules but why we have them and why um talking about this explicitly helps us um if i have a session where it's more um like you said you you're creating something on the wall uh some of the rules that i have is don't interrupt uh you are here because you matter and you are expected to share your opinion uh but if it's people who are used to working together one of the things i've done with the teams i've worked with is we actually discussed some new working agreements and not that there was something wrong with the old ones but stuff like um you write when you arrive at your keyboard you write good morning i'm now at my keyboard you say oh i'm away for coffee um and also maybe have that discussion about the fact that if you write something in a chat for instance um you will not see 90 of the information and even here like now we're only three people which means you can sort of read the faces on of us but we might not have good enough light we might not have a good enough screen um so it can be really hard to read which means that we're going to miss out on so much information but talking about that beforehand so that everyone knows that we might miss out on these things and then providing there's a new thing now and zoom if everyone updates to the newest version is you can actually make breakout rooms where people can walk from room to room which means that you can go you know what i want to discuss this with you can we go into this room for instance or you can just share a private chat um but what we found what i found is that the hurdle of doing that the step that you need to take is a little bit bigger than normally whereas if you're in a room you can kind of lean over and go like hey kenny you know i want to ask you this but um that doesn't work when you are online the the like um people um asking you for help the problem that they have has to be a little bit bigger they don't just lean over and go like oh do you remember the link to this yeah it had so so there's something about how do we activate that and i'm not sure how um one of the things we've been encouraging people to do is kind of you know speak up about these things uh the company that morgan is working with right now that i've always been involved one of the things they have is people ask questions in their slack so where everyone is in and that's an example that several of them have mentioned as this is something that's very uncomfortable but it is safe especially the ones who just started someone who started two weeks ago feels that it's safe to write a question here and then someone will answer you um so making sure that you kind of go in and have these um that you actually talk about that this is gonna be a little bit difficult if we try to take care of it we can do this but ask a little bit before you would normally ask um and it's always okay to ask yeah so so if i got that correctly again psychological safety is not the possibility for people to speak up but it's um it is the emotional state of knowing that i won't get hurt in my relationship towards you yeah um but it's not about uh agreement on the topic we can disagree ferociously we can argue strongly without hurting our relationship and we both enter the discussion with that mindset so we know that we do not want to hurt each other and even if that happens we apologize and then we work on it so this whole that's a safety aspect of psychological safety if i got that correct and and this elevated to a team level basically yeah and then you and you and the thing is what i found is most important is talk about it explicitly and we need to be a lot more explicit now that we are remote because so much of our information disappears um so where you can in a normal setting you can see oh um when gita has her headphone on she doesn't want to be disturbed you can have that discussion we can't see that you can't see if i'm smiling if i have a bad day you can't see any of that so we need to be a lot more explicit about these things um so one of the teams i work with for instance they decided to add to their daily meeting a question how are you doing today is there anyone who would like to share how they're doing because they found that that was the chit chat we would normally have in the morning until everyone was there yeah and just having that uh you know how are you doing asking that question first of all means that you care about people you actually care and most of the time you do care about the people you're on the team with deb of course there's always people that you don't have a strong relation to that happens um but just showing these things and then being very focused yourself on if you have discussions have discussions on things that are you know the thing it's it's not about you know you're such a bad coder or it's about there's a problem with the code so it always has to be about the and even if it is a problem with a person make sure it's not about you know you are stupid but you do this thing so make it concrete do behavior and maybe even have a discussion about how do we get feedback when we're remote yeah because if i tell you something and you can look at me you will take that feedback completely different than if i write it to you yeah of course so going into that that was a question upfront is um and i know this was a rough discussion because i entered that discussion before but how do you deal with people who lurk leave the video off does that make it by default a unsafe environment for some people because well i even can be sitting on my phone right now for instance which is lying here next to me and people can feel unsafe just by having people having their screen off how do you deal with these well actually i have discussions about it because people can also feel unsafe because they have to have their screen on yeah so like one of the things that is now because most of us are working remote and and like most of us are if we're not working remote because this was a plan thing we're kind of like now we're all working remote um which means that most people don't have a prepared workplace um so does that that some people don't have a proper place maybe they don't uh you know maybe they don't have an office they can sit in um you said you were sitting in your in a bathroom for instance which is kind of like okay so do you actually want to share that with other people some people don't like being on video at all some people it makes them feel like so so i always have that discussion with people so one team i had they decided that every morning when we start everyone puts their video on and we have our daily with our video on and then during the day you can have your video office that if that's what you want so they're mostly doing mob programming so they will be all working together um and sometimes they have video and sometimes they don't um and i think that's actually a nice nice heuristic i'm thinking back to my workshop because the workshop with event storming right and modeling i one time had when we were on site we got to know each other and then the virtual settings really worked because we knew each other yeah then we did all remote and we didn't see people but actually you can say i think it's similar with the check-in just speak up at least yeah the first 50 minutes leave your webcam on so people can actually plan to do that so that's actually a nice thing saying i know people won't like that but maybe for 15 minutes at the start of the workshop we can see each other and it will well i like that but also sometimes create the space for for you to not have cameras on i mean one of the guys i worked with in one of the teams never had this camera on i've never seen them on camera ever um and and he he totally uh he he's very very insecure with that and he feels very uncomfortable being on camera so he doesn't share it um and there's that part and there's the cultural part as well kind of like if you want some people like like for instance i'm one of these people who kind of like i connect with people i make friends at work um my work life and my private life kind of mixes in but some people like to have these two quite separate and might not want to share their home yeah i think given the original question like does it automatically make it unsafe i mean the answer is obviously no just discussed yeah but um i think there's a there's a responsibility for the for the rest of the team when someone shares with us oh i don't want to be on camera i feel uncomfortable that way i i feel like you're always looking at me and i can't concentrate on my screen it's like someone standing next to my desk and looking at my face while i'm coding and the rest of the team takes it responsibly and says okay that's fair that's a good point so let's just find emojis emojis or something then there is a safe environment right so you're just telling me your emotions and we're taking them in and say that's that your emotions are valid if there is a reason to have camera on sometimes because we need your facial expression when we surprise you um then we have to do it but the rest of the day you can be off and that's fine we find an agreement that is a the definition of social of psychological safety for me if both parties agree that they like what what has been agreed and they can they can argue about their discomfort with it in a safe environment then that is the definition of psychological safety so i think it's a heuristic when people start the the sessions with a screen off and keep them off all day without ever talking about it that's a heuristic for non-safe environment but if you talk about it openly and then it's not a signal at all i think that's one of the problems is we don't talk enough about these things yeah and while it's sometimes bad if you are working in the same office to not talk about how do we want these things it is even worse when we are working remote because at least when we are working in the same office we can kind of read the signals of each other uh you know we can see if somebody is busy with something or not but you can't do this when you're working remote which means that the team agreements need to be might be need to be a bit more explicit one is we need to actually discuss it um yeah it actually reminds me i said it before with uh dutch anthropologist jetska during the check-in of her workshop she always asks who wants to be here and who don't wants to be here and who doesn't want to be here and then cease first speaks up so she says well i want to be here because i'm fun for the workshop but i don't want to be here because my cat at home is sick right so i rather be at home because my cat is sick so sometimes online and then just by making it explicit again why people won't be there for instance everyone will have a reason why they won't be there and especially what you said before leads right everyone can lead yeah you tell it yourself since i do that even this week i ask okay what you liked about the last training day and what didn't you like about at least it's explicit now and the only i think the leading part is very important oh sorry i think the leading part is really important yeah yeah the only thing that that that gets unsafe are managers and then say well what if they don't want to be here well we have a good discussion why i am there then giving the workshop yeah and i think that's really really important actually also and i think especially for managers to show that one ability um which then i do or not all of them are used to it yet um but but they have to i mean i really like so i was in a meeting today where there were some some top people from from big companies and and one of them said you know what one of the things that i find really difficult is that i don't get to talk to people i'm very social i want to talk to people and we need to relate to this new reality and i have kids coming home from school now which means that you might hear some noise in the background um but that's our new reality and we need to to also as leaders show that this is also our reality that we also have kids coming in or dog barking or um and i think we also need to be open to these things as well yeah that was last week with the women uh jay allen and kirsten joy and they said in their book explicitly at the end uh when you write an email after the workshop put something fun in it like oh it's finally nice to meet your cat or your dog or some kids and that creates that interrelational i really like that tip just putting in something personal okay so we have a question go ahead marco the question is fine yeah so a question here uh catching up on explicitness can you elaborate how you establish interrelation no explicitness how do you establish the trust relationship that leads to the confidence of being explicit about our unsafety do you want me to repeat it because it's so that was a long question i was just yeah so how do you establish a trust relationship that leads to the confidence of being explicit about our own safety so it's about right the chicken and the egg yes and i think so the first thing that you need to do is kind of start building that trust you need to start building that connection um and and somehow someone needs to lead it and it can be you as a team member you as a manager you as a coach whatever but being the one starting to talk about you know i would like to talk to talk about the way we communicate and the explicitness about friends is like i like to know if i can approach you so can we please have a status on our slack that shows if we are available or not and of course that is is hard but building that small social steps and building that trust is the first part of it because you need to agree on these things like when can we disturb each other um one of the things that i've seen more now than when we worked in the office is that people spread out their work hours because sometimes like there are countries where you have your kids home from school or maybe you need to pick them up earlier and then people want to work in the evening so saying you know what i know that we have different times where we want to work can we make a schedule maybe when is it okay to disturb and if you start out by these small things that is about something very practical like what is a good time for us to have our daily meeting now can we have it you know 15 minutes earlier now that we are not commuting all of us having it be something really concrete and and very very safe to discuss that's part one and then start building these relations start having these discussions like asking how are you doing uh oh did anyone you know well in the good old days you would talk about did anyone see this movie in tv yesterday but now everyone has like a million streamings but what about the weather you know it was we actually had 20 degrees in stockholm yesterday and it's in september so start building these small things and once you have those you can start talking about beyond safety so friends with the video ones if you don't have a safe environment you're not going to say i feel uncomfortable showing one video i'm just going to say i'm not going to show my video and then if you are someone who leads it might be a good idea to have a talk with that person uh one-on-one and say is there anything i can do to help you feel more comfortable showing your video so if you ever come to the netherlands or speak to someone from the netherlands just start with the weather we'll be fine yeah yeah courting is also important so do you think that it's important to start with why in this case when you say if as a leader i ask you what can i do to make it more safe for you to share your video on the receiving end my first question would be why do you want to see my video in the first place so um i think i think it might i don't know i'm answering my own question i it would make me feel more safe if people start with the reason behind stuff so that i understand their needs so not the logical reason the business reason but their emotional reason like why does it make you why are you urged to say this to me or do you want something for me to change um thanks for the dialogue marco that was great sorry no but i want us to put the cameras on more no that's fine but i think that's a really good point is actually the why um and i think one of the things that you as a leader need to do is to be very explicit about the why so in this case you know it's an emotional why uh seeing your face makes me feel safer to do to talk to you for instance um but no matter what we do also in the in outside the the virtual world the why is really important but it becomes like 10 times more important when we're doing these things like being more explicit for instance as a leader what expectations do i have of you and why do i have these expectations you know why is it important that these things is something that you live up to for instance yeah um and that's really really important when we are when we are just working together in office but so much more important when we're not um and for instance like um it's important that everyone like one of the things we talked about at svt was that people needed to check in every morning in this channel and people like why do we need to do this and it turned out that it was actually safety like physical safety if something happens at work we need to know who's at work we need to know who's actually in the building and who's working from home so this was in the beginning where it was kind of volunteer if we wanted to work from home um and after so now what they're doing is they put an icon on their slack name so house means they're working from home i can't remember what the office is and palms means i'm on vacation um so that they know okay i can see these four people are in the office which means that if there's a fire that those are the people we need to look for um but explaining that why for something instead of it could be you know oh the boss needs to know i'm into work because they have to check in every day um so i think it is the the why is really really important yeah i'm um i have a personal experience that is surprising that was surprising for me i mean all these remote things make things harder right in the psychological safety department because we lose a lot of the human physiological connection um and we can find tools to mitigate that and even make it better from there but there was there was a person i was working with where the emotional connection was kind of hard because there was a lot of inter-human distrust or disliking um but on a work level we work fine that's that's all good and not having that person just being in the room all the time and having to interact with that person actually made the communication safer because for whatever biochemical reasons people don't like each other you couldn't smell the other person whatever now you can have the distance whenever you want and it makes it safe if you can have connection in a time frame like time constrained it's like now for the next half hour we have to talk great i can muster up the energy for that and i can be even explicit about it say great i'd like to talk to you about it for an hour but then i had enough gita for a week so have a nice day and that's super fine so it even gives you some more tools to play with to to increase safety and be explicit about it which is i think the key thing behind everything making these things explicit so people realize that they are not uh unsafe they can't speak up they can state their their feelings even if the feeling is i don't want to see you more than an hour per week um that's just fine to express and your feeling is valid yeah and but i think that's actually you also made a point that some people actually feel safer working from home some people i know for instance who suffer from anxiety find that it's a lot safer working from home where you don't have to finish take the tube and the underground train where you actually meet other people in public transportation so the fact that you can be at home that you can you know if you feel unsafe you can turn off your camera you don't have to be there you can take a break of an hour or half an hour which you can't do when you're in an office and so for some people this is also another way of doing it um so one of the people i follow on twitter is called jamie and lyon he talks about being autistic his goal is to be happily autistic and to create a happy life and one of the things he does in his workplace is that they do a lot of the communication over slack because that's much safer for him so whether he is in the office or not the communica a lot of the communication happens in written form and for some people this will be a much safer way to communicate i find i i personally don't i'm not very comfortable i mean i can have long conversations with people over twitter or chat in some form but sometimes it's just nice to have a you know have a conversation and i would definitely i mean any day i would work with people in the office uh that's much more for me yeah um virtual hugs only works so good yeah well you're not supposed to hug people now so i think for for looking at a remote dvd modeling session right where we do these things remote i think it's even more important i already did it in the physical one but even more important to maybe even start at the start talking about disagreements what do people need and how how are we doing making it a longer session but in the end faster right because yeah and i think also make longer breaks or make breaks i think that so we've been doing like the two-hour session market and i we've been talking about that maybe it should be a two and a half hour session with two small breaks in because for some reason i i don't know the the like the biological reason but focusing on the screen makes us a lot more tired than when we're in the office even if normally in an office we work on a screen there's something about the fact that we have to focus like this it also has to do with with moving around i think because yeah training from the back of the room i think there's some behind it but they say moving trump sitting right yeah and moving is so important we don't i mean i try to make that explicit usually when it's a break it's a real break stand up move around if you can at least get something to drink and i think that's also still important because usually in an event storming session and that's why i think it's hard when you do stuff like event storming you move constantly and people get tired of standing and walking around in the physical space now you're doing it remote and people are with their mouse moving around stickies on the screen so it's like from here to here that's totally different from like a retro where moving around isn't implicitly yeah so i think that's also important to when you go to a modeling session online that you lack the moving and people but you can with some of the things not with a modeling session of course but you can sometimes do actually do moving meetings like i know a lot of people have one-on-ones actually for to just have a phone call and then then they both take a walk and especially with the i mean yeah it's going to say the up environment that makes it warm still it's really nice to take a walk outside um so that can be another way of doing that plus there's also the thing is if you want to talk about something personal it can sometimes be nice to not look at the other person so like even if i have that if i have a coaching session with someone like physically i sometimes do the walking because then you're walking next to each other and you're not necessarily looking at the person if you're talking about something that's really difficult and so having a phone call can be another way of doing it that's also part of i think troy car consulting liberating structures where you have some consultants sitting and you tell your story then you turn around and they will discuss your idea and just because some you don't see someone's face the the yeah the the feedback can be quite better or something i think that's the reason behind it there is also a lot of positive possible yeah sorry yeah elka is asking related questions so she said uh um getting into a social dilemma what if the psychological safety of some person depends on not showing on video like i feel unsafe on video and the person talking towards me is feeling unsafe when they can't see me on video so now we have the dilemma of uh what i need for my safety is the opposite of what you need for your safety how do you resolve that social situation or what heuristics would you use yeah i'll use this interesting heuristic that is talking to people um i would actually have a conversation about this um and and very much having the thing about actually properly listening to another not listening to respond but listening to each other and kind of have both parties explain why it's important for them um and so as you can find a common ground and i've rarely felt that people actually feel unsafe to not see anyone it's more that they find it annoying i think and there's a and it's okay if things are annoying but i think a lot of people confuse safety with it has to be comfortable and nice and sometimes feelings it's okay that something is is not comfortable if it still feels safe if it's because you feel like okay you don't know what the other person is doing um you don't know like if they're looking at their phone which by the way is not something that people stop doing if they're on video trust me [Music] maybe there's a talk about trust that we need to have instead and then i would kind of scale it back and going like this is not about safety let's let's start with talking about basic trust because they're kind of they're not really the same you kind of need both um i think that psychological safety is a lot easier when you trust people and you need to trust their reactions um so maybe that's the discussion you need to have first that was that reminds me yeah sorry i'm just gonna say this was a known answer well it reminds me of the book crucial conversations where they go into this stuff where they say well state what you see well you having your video off makes me feel uncomfortable yeah because now i i have the feeling i cannot trust you and then you can have a nice discussion about it i'm not saying anything about you but about myself right yeah because your conversation is a really really good book it's uh it's the one i've also used for a lot of my communication trainings yeah i really like that state i think they call it state right yeah yeah i don't know the acronym anymore but it's in the book and i think this goes into that uh again why do you why do you that's the biggest one the why again uh why do you feel unsafe then why why do you want the cameras turned off yeah it's not about putting the cameras on it's about the need you have that you might need to fulfill to be here and i think it's important to have those discussions um because it's like an example so this is from more from being in the same space well i guess the same thing could happen if you're not in a safe space so one of the things we talked about in one of the teams where i was helping them talk about safety was um what about jokes for instance what if i tell a joke that makes somebody else feel unsafe am i not are we not allowed to do jokes anymore um and what i see sometimes is that people have this kind of artificially safe environment where nobody dares speak up yeah so like one of the things we have in denmark right now is they're having their me2 discussion three years late but at least now they have it and one company actually said you cannot give compliments at work because some um men in high places have been using compliments to uh kind of push around young women and that's a total way of doing it because you're not creating a safe environment on obviously you're actually now creating a very unsafe environment yeah so my answer to that is kind of like no we want it to be an environment that if somebody tells a joke that hurts me i feel safe enough to speak up about it but the person who tells the joke also feel safe enough to to have made that mistake because if we say okay you can make these mistakes but you can't make these mistakes then we spend our time trying to not make those mistake and we don't use our brain capacity into the interesting things about communication or innovation or creating something so we need to have an environment where it's okay to make mistakes because we're all human um i sometimes say that it's kind of like the touring test of the modern world is we make mistakes we have backspaces on our computer um and that's because we all make mistakes and especially when it comes to this and something like telling a joke i mean jokes are good but there's just jokes that is good in one environment and not in other environments um and we make these mistakes or we come with a remark where we kind of go i don't know well you say something and it turns out that you're the person i heard something like some people don't that you cannot use brainstorming because it's actually a medical term for something that happens in the brains of people with a specific disease i think it is and like i would never think about that because to me brainstorming something where i have a group of people who's coming up with ideas that's context-specific safety right yeah so if you if you have people in your group that suffer from that condition and that feel unsafe then of course that term needs to be discussed yeah um yeah that makes sense huh yeah thank you so so um question from christina she wants to go back a little bit to the managers because i think they are still a problem being outside of the possible safe circle they were already left out in retros they rarely get feedback if ever so they are in a really bad position for what we want from them i think that's a good point i think that if we just look at it they are not involved in like getting regular feedback for instance uh and and some of them also don't want it but that's a different manner but to create a true safe organization or a place where most people feel safe most of the time we do need to involve the managers which means that they might need help they might need someone to help them to guide them to figure out how how am i going to do this because if you are a traditional manager and you grew up with um what grew up work-wise with you cannot lose face all of a sudden starting to go in and say you know what i messed up i made a mistake i'm sorry about that can be really really hard for them um and i've seen that in a lot of situations where like i had one manager and he would tell people two options but only one of them was actually an option um and then i helped him to kind of go in the next day and say to the team i am sorry i gave you two options yesterday but only one of them was an option i made a mistake i'm sorry about that and to make that vulnerability and that is damn hard which means that they're probably gonna need help with it um so if you have a manager where you kind of think that or you just say you know what we want to work on psychological safety in this area maybe you can ask your manager to have a talk with them and go like you know we've been thinking about involving safety and i know that you don't have anyone that you do regular retros with do you want us to do something together and even though we talk about retros only being for the team which i to some extent agree about but that's because a lot of the red cross almost all the writers that i hear about are about the work in the team but there's actually nothing in a retrospective that says it has to be about that if the theme for the retrospective is how do we uh talk to each other in this apartment department for instance well usually this apartment because we're all sitting at homes but um how do we talk to each other how do we collaborate then you have a retrospective data speaker and you need to involve also managers in those retrospectives whereas most of the respects we have is how how is work in our team i think that's where system thinking comes in right it's um i don't know what your experience background is no more scrum or kenman or whatever system or whatever method but it's not about only one scrum team it's always about making the whole system work better and i can de-optimize my team if it means that the whole system is optimized more towards our common goal so identifying the actual goal that we want to achieve and then having the correct discussions the right retrospectives and and getting safety not only within the teams but between teams or maybe even just a whole safety culture can be very important or if it's not achievable thing like if you have like very different cultures in one company than having specific boundaries outspoken boundaries where culture changes are so that you know here's a safe bubble here's a safe bubble in between we get gitted to to struggle it out and that's fine so those things can be solutions to a systemic problem and yeah as you said it's not about a team retro retrospective is looking backwards and figuring out how can we be better in the future yeah and i think this is very important so like when when we started working on this morgan and i uh we did all the workshops um with we did the workshop with each team but we started out with doing it with the leadership so we did the awareness workshop with the leadership first which meant the two tribe leaps all engineering managers i can't remember if all pos were there as well so had that and then we had it in the teams where they were also part of the teams having the workshop same when we did the feedback one and when we did the one about working in the teams yeah so these people were involved in it all along um and when i say you do a retrospective with the managers it has to be a retrospective that is also relevant for them so i don't mean just taking your normal retrospective and involving the managers because if they are not part of the daily work they don't have a say in a retrospective um about how your daily work runs yeah sure so retrospective has to be about a group like let's say team because it's a scrum term kind of but a group that achieves something together and every group consolation that you're in you can have a retrospective in yeah um someone i can't read the names on the chat but someone said retrospects managers only work in a safe place but for this the manager has to be a practitioner of that safe place and that's a catch i would i would disagree a little and say it's everybody has to be in a safe space to do a good retrospective and if not then that's the first point on the agenda getting to a safe place because if the result of our retrospective is some people don't feel safe then now we need to make that happen first before we can have any meaningful retrospections yeah and i've been in environments where actually the so like in the department i worked with svt or the product area they would sometimes have their their managers in their retrospective just to observe because they felt safe enough to have them there because they had a really really strong safety with their managers and i think in that case it's good to involve the managers if you want to um otherwise for me a retrospective is kind of like whatever happens here is i was the only thing that that goes out of it is our action points um but yeah the problem with involving people in a retrospective or whatever it is in a workshop is that they need to learn to be practitioners of safety but also means that it's not enough to do a training for the teams or groups or whatever you call them it is important that everyone takes part in this and learns about it i'm getting a very bad feeling about this it seems a little bit like practice practicing safety in my psychological safety is a prerequisite to working creatively at all like if this is not a given or if people do not work on this any any other optim optimization doesn't really get you anywhere it feels like this is a really big prerequisite for uh i agree i mean what an adult says make safety a prerequisite especially also in ddd and i've been talking a lot with evelyn about that ddd is about your model which is an abstraction so you need all the insight necessary if you have group think or people not speaking up that's most knowledge yeah that knowledge can be essential for making a good model or at that point the best model in time right because we don't talk about perfect models but just that word and you lose it i i think it's a prerequisite especially because you need domain experts so it's not a theme thing it's actually with a group thing to make that safety explicit so i think it's up the utmost important in ddd to address this from the start when you do collaborative modeling because i think that we do no matter what we do i think we can have some innovation without feeling safe but for to have proper things and and get things right we do need that safety and some of the examples that we see out in the more physical world for instance is the boeing planes where people did not speak up because they would either be fired or bullied and nothing happened until the second plane fell down and the report that just came out from boeing now actually shows that there's not just one bug whatever it's called in in physical things there's not just one mistake in the plane there's a bunch of mistakes around in the plane because people did not feel safe enough to speak up about making mistakes and they did not feel safe enough to have somebody else look at their stuff and mary saying you know what is this part okay so it's not just the one thing that made the planes fall down there are several things that would eventually make more planes fall down and this is a really classic example of a very unsafe environment where people don't speak up and and we will miss out on so many things if we don't have that safe environment so having a personal story about that and about managers where people in teams like i'm myself in a team share a personal experience that we look up to our managers as the leaders but i think we went over it we are our leaders ourself as well yeah and if you can think of well my my manager doesn't create a safe space or [Music] you can go and ask the question to that person do you feel safe because maybe or most of the time the person itself from above doesn't feel safe as well and it cascades down and just by i had it recently where i asked one-on-one or my manager from how are you actually feeling how are you dealing with this situation and man that changed the whole conversation and we start talking about this and we got workshop about deep democracy workshop but which is essentially about safety again and that was really powerful that yes we look up to managers and yes we are constrained by that manager of course you cannot change that person but you can at least try and speak up and ask how are you doing even though it's officially not your task to do you can still do it yeah it and it's about showing that like you know that curiosity and that care for that person uh yeah because i mean like i said i said before we are all leaders if nothing else we lead by example and of course it takes guts to go up to your men and if you don't have a relation with your manager to go up and say you know what how are you feeling yeah and sometimes they might say you know what that's none of your business um and then that might not be where you start if you have the guts you can say well since i'm working with you i do think it's my business but it's okay for you to not share and then maybe when you ask the third time they will open up a bit and then the listening part comes in yeah yeah when he just said um this is like yeah this is not your task um that's a term i'm so allergic to when someone says this is not my task it's like no it's not about tasks everybody can lead everybody can follow um wherever you feel safe and where your motivation is that's where you should work and if if my manager doesn't give me a task and i want change still to happen i'll find safe ways to make change happen so yeah yeah i think it's time to wrap up with our final question for today the final question is from elaine miller how do you begin to assess problems on psychological safety and to then address them so how do you begin to assess these problems well i think first you need to have an environment where it's okay to kind of start looking into these things um and i think that how do you assess them i think that so like one of the things we did was taking those seven questions and i can only remember one of them because that was the one that shocked us um so we the question was we took each question and asked them twice kind of twice like what about this question with the person you feel most comfortable with in your team and the one you feel least comfortable with and the question that i remember so strongly is somebody in my team would deliberately undermine me because one in seven said yes to that in a placement that we thought was safe that someone in their team would deliberately undermine them that they felt that way and that was kind of like okay this is something you know there's something going on people are not if you if you think if one in seven thinks this the teams are not safe yeah and that needs to be the first thing we go in and talk about we talk about why is safety important um so no matter what i would always start with why is safety important and then figure out what to do the way we did it was we did the awareness workshop for everyone and then the next workshop we did we used a sort of retrospective format where we said 36 categories of things i'm not afraid to be myself raise problems take risks ask questions disagree and i can always remember five well six things and we said you have two ears and one mouth what are things you want to hear about and two things you want to hear about one thing you want to talk about in the team and then we took the two most important one and we discussed that with people and then we asked them retrospective wise now we would like you to go out two and two and discuss concrete actions what can we do about this area and that meant that some of the actions that came up were making a poster from the leadership saying this is how we see psychological safety and this is how we feel and we actually saw that that was a success because that was one of the first things that teams put up again when they moved to a different location one team decided to do up of the week because they say we talk so much about mistakes that turn into something good like post-it notes i don't know if everyone knows the story but post-it notes they were trying to invent a really strong glue and then they invade invented this glue that's not very strong and we have post-it notes and i mean they make loads of money on post-it notes i mean almost everyone who's in this call will probably have post-it notes i mean i have them in all my bags not anymore not anymore i have them in the bags but i don't use so many important see see that's why i love marco so they were kind of like why do we only talk about these things why don't we talk about the things well the only thing we learned is we never want to do this again one team where we had two developers who were speaking the most they actually brought up this as a problem we fear that because we speak the most we don't hear some of the opinions that could make us make a better design for instance so they decided that every time they made an important decision about design or team whatever that they would take around and hear everyone's opinion so i think it's quite individual what you need to do to kind of work on these safety things and sometimes you can even do experiments like what if we have a coffee break together two and two during the week so that you have with uh random people from your team get to know them a little bit better that can be an experiment so i think it will what we really do to to work on these things is quite individual um but um so amy edwardson has a good book um which came out last year and some of the stuff that she also mentioned today is quite practical that you can do um but the most important thing i think is if you if you can do it yourself be vulnerable talk about your own mistakes and be curious about others and listen to them and then we can take it from there but it's not easy and sometimes you'll be an environment that is toxic and then you can either accept that or you can leave that um and i know the option of leaving it is not always as easy but we do always have that option it might mean that no we can't go on vacation this year but we can't anyway this year so maybe it means that you can't buy a new tv or that you have to live of i mean i've tried quitting a job and living off past there for six months almost um but it's a choice we can make um and i'm not saying it's easy but we do have that choice sometimes an environment is just not worth investing in and if more people would leave toxic environments uh their companies would break down and we would have only the safe environments left oh that would be beautiful yeah elaine says fantastic and thank you thank you guitar welcome thank you i think this was it right thanks everyone yeah thanks sir for sharing your stories and thanks to everyone attending and i can say if you want to know more about this you're free to contact me i'm native wired on twitter um and as you might have experienced through my talking i like very much discussing these things and helping people you know hopefully the the non-remote conference will hit off again yes we'll talk a lot more we're going to close the youtube stream now the webinar will stay open uh everybody have a safe evening and a safe work week yeah and thank you very much bye

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Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: Domain-driven design, meetup

Id: KMvEt18aO5c

Length: 81min 35sec (4895 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 29 2020