Defending Mormonism & Joseph Smith | Jeff - Utah | Atheist Experience 21.10

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on that note we've got Jeff and Utah a Mormon with a unique perspective for us yes hello am I on the air sirs you are you're on with John and Matt I just oh hi John I'm at the weather's lovely here I'm from Oregon but I moved to Utah about six years ago and like most people who move to Utah you meet the Mormons and so you know Mormon it's almost a pejorative term we like to be called members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints yep yes sirs that's correct and about a year ago I made a commitment to read the book of Mormon I'm sure you're familiar in fact the South Park creators even made a musical and and now don't tell my bishop but I even saw the musical over there to my become a latter-day saint and wait and you thought you saw the musical before and you read The Book of Mormon and you're a Mormon oh yes sir and I noticed the difference when I went to the Broadway show I did not feel the Spirit of the Lord but when I read The Book of Mormon I felt the spirit what's I feel like a well most Mormon well most latter-day saints describe it as a burning in the bosom which I know sounds feel maybe someone's tittering or laughing there and that's fine I'm just I'm just trying to fit so I so I come from a Southern Baptist background and while I was in of course I would have claimed that you know I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit which is similar to what you're claiming and what I'm trying to get to is what does that feel like and how do you know that what you're feeling is the presence of the Lord what well I you know I have a wife and I describe it almost as as I would describe love I look at my wife and I I can look into her eyes and she's a beautiful woman and not that her beauty is is all that matters a I'm attracted to her spirit as well but but I propose it's like that where it's it's almost like intuition or what the detectives call on those detective shows that the gut instinct yeah so here's the thing I've not only am i doing an entire magic show about intuition and exposing it but so you feel something for your wife and I got no problem with it yes yeah and now you feel something for the Lord as well and you say as well and that yes sir and and we but how do you know how do you know that the object of that feeling is real oh well we have the Book of Mormon which is another testament of Jesus Christ okay and so first of all I wasn't impressed with the first one that claimed to be a testament of Jesus Christ I'm definitely not in create you know impressed with the fraudulent one but okay have you read the book of Mormon for yourself or did you yes see the broadway's go now I've never seen the Broadway show I read The Book of Mormon and was talking about more as long before South Park ever did an episode on it what I'm asking is it possible for someone to be in love with and have warm feelings for someone or something that is not real oh well I can put it this way I I really love have you seen the movie The Rock it has Sean Connery and Nicolas Cage yes I love that movie but of course it's make-believe it is a movie so I think you can well is it is it possible for you to feel love for a fictional character like or even to feel hate for a fixed like - you hate Baltimore yeah and you love Harry Potter yeah in fact I will say I hate and Harris character on the rock he he's planning on gassing San Francisco sure and of course that's ed Harris he's an actor and I understand the difference between fiction nonfiction well that's that's the issue here the fact you have feelings for something that for a god doesn't tell us whether or not the God is real does it well and there are lots of false gods Allah of the Muslims and how did you determine that Allah is a false god well think of the Muslims they they they bombed us on 9/11 okay that doesn't tell me whether or not they have a false god uh-huh well I in Mormonism we say by their fruits you shall know them yeah but all that means is that their God doesn't meet up to the standards of the God that you accept mm-hmm it doesn't make it fold yeah I want to know I want to know if which which God is real and how do we know that well well in Mormonism we have more than one there's there's God the Father God the Son and then the Holy Ghost and I it's hard to describe like I I'm still just wondering how we tell which one's of those are real I I understand Mormon doctrine I Anna my question is how do you tell whether or not your God is real well we say it's a manifestation of the Holy Ghost what does that what does that mean well it's brought upon by prayer sit sincere prayer you have to pray sincerely you can't just go a half but yes so as a Southern Baptist when I prayed sincerely I felt something that I thought was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit it's the doctrine is essentially indistinguishable I found out that I had no good reason to say that because I feel this the thing that I'm talking about is therefore true so I need to find out you know I can have all kinds of feelings it and I are you familiar with Joseph Smith and he saw God in Jesus in I'm familiar I'm familiar with Joseph Smith as a con artist and the claim that he that might be a misconception sir well I I don't think it is but how do you know that Joseph Smith saw God I'm familiar that he claimed he did well now that's kind of a tricky quiz until with a video camera with my iPhone um so somebody could somebody claimed that they met the angel Moroni yes how do you how do you determine that this is actually factually correct well I spoke well some fact isn't quite the right word it's a it's the only word that I care about is whether or not it is a fact you just mentioned you just mentioned faith is there anything that you couldn't believe based on faith I I'm sorry I don't understand the question yeah okay so let's say I could believe that black people are superior to white people and say that this is a faith based belief right well you could but you'd be wrong well so I could also believe that there is an invisible set of pixies that invade my home and make it filthy every night and I could say that that position is based on faith right well you could you could have faith in pixies or in a law firm I mean you know if faith if faith can lead us to true conclusions and false conclusions then faith is not a reliable mechanism for finding the truth right oh well Joseph Smith taught that the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus why why should anybody care what Joseph Smith taught and if what he taught is that the first principle is faith and faith is in fact not a reliable pathway to truth and doesn't that make Joseph Smith irrational and doesn't that make his teachings false well and he grew up in a different time you know he didn't have computers and so so hang on a second Jeff what difference that make what time somebody grew up in faith is never been and I don't see any reason why it would ever be a reliable path to truth correct well I well in Smith's you know he probably wouldn't have known much of what we know I mean we know it's you know if you get sick you should take a Tylenol Joseph Smith's probably didn't have it a Tylenol that's why he had to require on prayer well first of all I'd if we can test prayer we know that it's not particularly effective that's not effective at all but that doesn't address the question if is faith a reliable pathway to truth a true faith yes okay now we're into an area of special pleading that is just beyond bizarre I'm sorry I don't mean to be guilty of logical fallacies I was listening to the last call and and a young man talking about voodoo and and my eyes about fell out of my darn stat it was so so you've you've introduced a new concept when I so faith set aside true faith for a second faith isn't a reliable isn't a reliable path to truth correct well I'm probably not because it's probably a lot like voodoo so but now you're saying that true faith is a reliable path to truth what yeah what is true faith and how do you know it's a reliable path the truth oh it almost sounds like a redundancy but I Eve it sounds very circular it sounds like you're saying the faith that leads to truth is a reliable path to truth you know or even this I use space to be faithful or I have faith in the faith of the faith that I understand what you mean now cuz Gabriel was just as had just as much faith in his Voodoo than you do in and Joseph Smith yes and we don't have Buddha we have what's called the Melchizedek Priesthood but between the three of us and they they sound quite similar maybe just different names so maybe the power of God is manifest in different ways maybe maybe that's the point so when soon as you start doing maybes what you're engaged in is a little bit of retcon a little bit of revising it's a little bit of let me see if I can find a way to keep making this work rather than acknowledging that the foundation you started with is unreliable because if faith if if faith is unreliable and Joseph Smith makes an appeal to faith then Joseph Smith is encouraging an unreliable mechanism for finding the true right mm-hmm oh you've given me about a hundred pounds to think about here yeah and then under them then you get to the issue with the seer stones and the fact that the language that he claimed to be transcribing isn't real and doesn't exist well and I'll need some research on that and that is true that there is no such thing as the reformed Egyptian yes it doesn't excite of Mormonism III am aware of that country controversy isn't that foundational to your beliefs if the if the founder of your beliefs is claiming to have translated it hanging no Jeff let me finish the sentence Jeff let me finish let me finish no no no the foundation is not Jesus Christ okay I'm sorry the foundation of Mormonism is the Book of Mormon yes okay and how did the Book of Mormon came about from Joseph Smith claiming that he was translating reformed Egyptian right well that's what the world would believe I believe that God spoke to the ancient prophets and that they wrote their words now on gold plates and that centuries later Joseph Smith had those plates that that's what I believe Joseph Smith claimed he was translating reformed Egyptian right yes and there's no such and there's no such thing as a reformed Egyptian right not outside of Mormon - no not anywhere you don't get to just go to special pleading and say that all of a sudden there's reformed Egyptian within Mormonism I know that your religion is going to make it difficult for you to acknowledge that the founder of your religion was a big fat liar but he was yeah I'm sorry I feel a lot like the last caller trying to defend voodoo I I get and I tell you what I'd say just go think about those things because you've clearly already researched a little and you're desperate to find a way now but and and it if you can Matt and I believe John see the Book of Mormon Broadway show it was excellent incredibly funny very blasphemous and then read The Book of Mormon that would be my invitation to you gentlemen well I have not seen it I don't know if I'll get to see it I did see the South Park episode but I'd already read The Book of Mormon okay and the problem here is that and I don't mean this to be insulting to you and he the rock the rock is excellent I've seen the rock it's my wife loves it it's not particularly a great movie but I do it is a fun move awful I haven't I have enjoyed it but here's the thing and I don't don't say this to be insulting to you there are a lot of different religions oh you betcha yeah some of them are more obviously not true than others when l ron Hubbard basically invented Scientology he was ammoniac yeah I say he just kind of pulled it out of his butt right oh-hoh right out of there and Joseph Smith called Mormonism out of his butt via sea or stones and a hat wow it is the second most obviously fraudulent invented religion on the planet right now that I'm aware of well and I would just say it's easier to tell a fraudulent religion the newer it is yeah that's part of the problem we have a really good history in two thousand years when when the Mormon Church has has been successful in destroying and hiding the path of evidence if we if they're able to do that then Mormonism might be as popular or more popular than mainstream Christianity because now you want to as much access to the evidence that showed that it's not real Oh like I said the fool you've given me about a hundred pounds of information - well not information but news I guess doubt is the word to think about I that's a good thing and here's the thing and if Mormonism is true if Mormonism turns out to be true then the doubt that leads you to discover the facts to demonstrate why it's true not only means that you now have a more rational position but it's a position that you would be able to share you could call in here you could convince anyone that Mormonism is true without logical fallacies without Appeals to reform the Egyptian without time yeah I've really walked into some of those and I didn't mean to be circular but I those the Mormons they're just such good people and I Eve I'm fine with the idea that they're good people except for yeah except for one thing I know a lot of former Mormons ex-mormons we call them Foreman's yeah well apostates yes well you can call them apostates I like calling them human beings I'm sorry that did sound harsh they are children of our Heavenly Father is your right no no they're in the worst shape because they were Mormons and now they're not they're in far worse shape according to Mormon doctrine than I am because I was never a Mormon right yes outer darkness yeah so they they they are the worst of the worst they have the worst course here's the thing Mormons great people great families awesome yeah friendly except for one thing the church encourages and requires them to present that front to the world because the reputation of it because the reputation of the church is impacted by their actions and so there are piano there are plenty of miserable Mormons who are living in in the worst mental conditions because they are stuck in something that is not true that is oppressive and yet they have to pretend as if everything is ok because that's what the church demands and that to me is repugnant well I'm I'll put it this I I'm sorry that you feel that way I and and you're right I shouldn't just refer to my fellow my fellow brothers and sisters is a pasta I said apostate that's not well it might be factually accurate based on your doctrine but here's the thing if you were to find out that that that there were a bunch of miserable unhappy Mormons who were pretending to be happy for the sake of promoting the church would you have a problem with that well yeah you know happiness is one thing but for me truth is more important yeah so I would start talking I would reach out to former Mormons and then start talking to other Mormons because the things that they'll talk about in private are very different for ones they'll talk about in public well and I haven't been to the Mormon temple yet so I don't know what goes on there yeah I'm a new convert I'm pretty sure the bloodletting no longer occurs there but you should look into history of that as well yeah well I've been a little worried I'll be honest that's just but I want to applaud you Jeff for thinking about this stuff because a lot of people won't they won't examine their beliefs they won't examine what they what they think and why so I think well the fact that you're willing to shows me that you're more rational than a lot of people in your church or another church no not not to toot my own horn but you know I'm college educated I have a degree in English education and an American government education I teach seventh grade I'm no dummy so so maybe I need to rethink a few and critical thinking is good you know good that's why we have here I'm on my cell phone we have cell phones because people you know they think you know it'd be nice to call my friend in in in in in Texas or I'd like to I'd like to call my mother you know and I can't just throw a stone here with a rock with a string a tin can you know a tin can won't quite work anyway Jeff hi I appreciate the call do some do some critical thinking re-examine bye don't be a don't be afraid of doubts because the truth has nothing to fear from investigation that's true that's true okay thank you search and have a great Sunday thank you thank you as a reminder it is Sunday which means the Atheist Experience is on which is what you're watching now unless you're watching the recording sometime in the future in which case it could be anytime any day but if you're watching it live when the show's over we get together for dinner at Star of India restaurant I think it's like 2900 and lame they'll put it up at the bottom of page boom I got it right 2900 West Anderson Lane I still don't see how you point because it's backwards from it is backwards but I can also see you so I know it starts with in front of you and go it's taking in the whole picture no it's 12 years of doing the show and wrong over into animals look right here it says after show after show yeah but yeah come to dinner with us after the show

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Channel: The Atheist Experience

Views: 391,177

Rating: 4.8735847 out of 5

Keywords: atheist experience, the atheist experience, theatheistexperience, atheist, atheism, atheist vs christian, atheist debate, religion debate, atheism debate, Matt Dillahunty (Broadcast Artist), belief, faith, reason, rational, proof, evidence, logic, fallacy, religion, religious, science, secular, Skepticism, skeptic, questioning god, doubt, is god real, agnostic, agnosticism, evidence for god, Christianity, Islam, morality, evidence for jesus, Jesus, Jesus Christ, debate, Bible, Bible contradictions

Id: Gn7tW2zkwxE

Channel Id: undefined

Length: 20min 10sec (1210 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 03 2017

Reddit Comments

"I'm starting to sound like the voodoo guy". Should that not be a red flag if you sound like people you think are believing obviously false things?

👍︎︎ 13 👤︎︎ u/touchstone1112 📅︎︎ Oct 04 2018 🗫︎ replies