Debating Konstantin Kisin on the "Religious Left"

do you think veganism in certain instances when you see it the way that it manifests within certain sections of society do you think it's almost akin to a religion well people say this about all kinds of things they say it about wokeism they they say it about um like anything that becomes a a philosophy that people care about let's say um no but people mean something else too on all the examples they what they mean it when people say that wokeness is a religion or that I I've never heard anyone say veganism is a religion I certainly wouldn't argue that however what people mean is that it is a set of beliefs that is that causes people to behave in a way that is Impractical and irrational and they do it in the service of an idea uh that has almost mythical power over them what I would say is a religion is the the the doomeris of climate change there's Absolut it has every element of religion um including people acting irrationally I I I know I know what you mean but would you say for example that um I mean you probably had people on the show talking about the threats of artificial intelligence yes yes and how there's potentially sort of calamitous world ending implications would you call that a religion uh I wouldn't call that a religion because they don't behave in the same way about it they're not going out and throwing soup on things we we we say that but then I don't think there's like if people start taking seriously the idea that we seriously need to slow down or stop artifici icial intelligence look at the look at the environmental movement where where you know people start raising awareness that climate change is the thing and then a decade a couple of decades later people start taking it very seriously and start protesting in the streets and then the arguments are sort of like well look I I get what you're saying it's probably right but your methods aren't effective and you know what about China why why should I care about what we're right the same thing can happen here with artificial intelligence it's already happening when people say hey let's just slow down let's put a pause on this technology and people are saying what you think that other countries are going to put a pause on this no there's nothing we can do right it's also apocalyptic you know the world's going to end like all of the elements that you're identifying is potentially religious here based on this this I mean you call it mythical but it's always grounded in some kind of reality right like the the climate change stuff is grounded in the science the veganism stuff is grounded in the very real animal cruelty the artificial intelligence stuff is grounded in the actual you know technology of of AI but it's still you know I could describe it as an apocalyptic death cult and I could say that the effective altruists are saying that we should stop taking money that we're currently giving to try and you know fix malaria and buy malaria Nets we should be taking that money away from that kind of suffering and investing it into AI safety because that's a more important issue long term if they're if they're correct then then maybe that is what we should be doing but it seems ludicrous and irrational to stop giving money to people in need to try and lift people out of poverty well we haven't had anyone like that on show so that we can build better computers but people are doing that right and so I could point to people like that and say see this AI thing it's just it's an apocalpse tic death cult and I feel like that's kind of what people do when they point to veganism wokeism environmentalism and say it's a religion no I disagree and here's why I think the reason I disagree is people who are warning about AI the the people who are at the Forefront of that the people who are uh being talked up as the the warning necessarily about these issues they are people who are otherwise sensible and who are advocating fairly sensible things like this is a new technology we don't know how powerful it's going to be let's slow it down let's make sure that we're not overusing it let's make sure it's it's regulated Etc right the people who are advocating on the environmental issue for example there are people who are demanding that we essentially suicide our our economies uh to to in order by the way to make very very little impact on the problem there's a very big difference between those two things so uh it's kind of like um people say this about the BBC people say well the BBC you know you've got leftwing critics and right-wing critics therefore the BBC is in the middle and by the way some departments are in the middle but actually if you look at who the critics are who say it's two left wing versus two rightwing it's a very different picture the mainstream center right thinks the BBC is incredibly leftwing the people who thinks who think the BBC is rightwing are people on the very very extremes of the left so just because people are criticizing an issue or there's that parallel doesn't mean it's the same thing uh and I think AI is not the best example for those reasons and also as well one of the core components of any religion is a moral framework so if you look at wokeism for example that has a very clear delineated moral framework which the AI example doesn't in my opinion yes I I I I think I I see what you're saying and and well agree with elements as as you do with any conversation like this the the idea that the people at the Forefront you know um are not going a bit crazy I I would say just wait I mean well Elon Musk is not gr tumberg is what I'm saying sure but but you understand that like I I I don't know where you consider yourself politically I know that you were named in the new statesman's list of you know the top 50 most powerful conservatives congratulations 46 four four positions above the former prime minister list trust yeah you know imagine how high up I would be if I were actually conservative when you were on my when you were on my show and I asked you about being a conservative and I I I posted that clip when that was announced because there was this clip of you saying I'm not a conservative and when I when I gave the context that the new Statesman had labeled you as the 46 most most power conservative I didn't mean for that to to cause this but people were sort of they began attacking the new Statesman saying you know oh the new Statesman there they're lying about Constantine they're attacking him as a conservative I I don't I don't think they were doing that I think they they just genuinely saw you that way but what I was going to say is you know suppose you are a conservative um you're going to look at Greta tumberg and think you know she's insane she's crazy she's you know absolutely mental okay fine right if if you're on the left you might look at her and say well look sometimes I I I think that she says something a bit silly but she's not like crazy like they're making her out to be compare now you compared her to Elon Musk a second ago look at what left Wingers say about Elon Musk all the time look at the look at the way they describe him look at how they say that he's one of the most dangerous people on planet Earth that he's insane that he's immoral that he's evil I would wager that you don't agree with that but clearly this is being thrown at like in both directions but Alex this is the point that I think we're disagreeing over the fact that people say the same thing about different people is not necessarily a reflection of the fact that those people are equivalent that just you have to look at who it is that is saying it and why they're saying it I my uh what I say about Greta tumberg is not based on some kind of uh personal antipathy towards her it's based on the fact that what she's advocating for is Impractical and irrational and would be very damaging to the very people on whose behalf she's advocating yes right what people say about Elon Musk is essentially a guy who's not one of us has taken over one of the means of communication and we don't like it that's that's a big difference I I would say I suppose the only point I'm making here is that if you were speaking to somebody who was like a Greta fan and somebody who hated Elon Musk if they were sat in his chair and they were able to articulate it what would they say that's interesting I don't I don't know what they would say because I'm not really in that position but they would probably say something like what you've just said they'd say they say they'd say you know my dislike for Elon Musk is is not some I I don't think we I don't think he's just like oh it's cuz he's not one of us because he's this billionaire and I just hate hate people like that no it's based on the things that he does it's based on his Twitter like I don't know but you have to say this other bit otherwise this conversation doesn't make any sense what is the rational critique of Elon Musk and I can give you one it's just not going to be the the one from these people sure well maybe Elon Musk is the wrong example for me to be talking about okay give give another example say potentially with musk what they would say is that his views aren't consistent and they're dishonest because he claims to be in favor of freedom of speech Yes but then he bans the account but that isn't their critique though that just that isn't their critique that's a critique that I can give and you can give and Alice can give cuz we recognize he's you know no but this is what I said free speech absolutism doesn't exist nobody who says they're free free speech absolutism is something you can maintain when you're sitting in your basement yeah or your mother's basement more likely right once you get into the real world and you start to have to make decisions about how to administer content on a platform Free Speech absolutism is impossible so that's a valid is not consistent but that is not what the equivalent of the Greta critics might be saying about Elon right why so let's let's have another example because this is an interesting point you're making that's also that's also not equivalent to what the the critics of gret are often because you you sit there in the chair and say well I think I I don't like what gret is saying because I think that what she's saying is you know fundamentally um self-destructive or something like that right but surely you you know that there are people who do just say she's an annoying teenager why are we she definitely that you this this like but she is that too it doesn't matter where you look right like like you're going to get both you're going to have people looking at El musk and saying I think that he claims to Be pro- Free Speech but he's Banning people on Twitter and this is this is sort of uh going to have a knock on negative effect onto the the sort of cultural social media right and then you're also going to get people who say he's a billionaire right and the same thing's going to happen with Greta tumber no no but my point is the people who are making the critique that Francis just made are not on the left it's more people like us who are in this het do Center or whatever who are going to go what because the right will love him for you know opening up the Overton window whatever but people who are objective will say look I think it's I think it's incredible that he's bought Twitter just because it's the one place where there's less censorship now and then that means everyone else there's no point for them censoring on Facebook and elsewhere because you're still going to get the information from Twitter so I think it's great but the critique still applies which is he claimed he was a free speech absolutist I just think he was in sorry Elon wants me assassinated um I just think it was a mistake to do so it's an interesting example because Free Speech has kind of become a bit of a right-wing issue which kind of complicates this particular example but I mean do you think that there there aren't any leftwing critiques of Elon Musk to be taken seriously uh you give me one and we can talk about it well again this um Elon Musk is probably the I I can't remember who mentioned let's pick a different person whatever but but but but before we do as well because we were talking about this in the context of the AI thing and and you were saying yes um you know people aren't as greter is in your view going out and telling people to do things which are essentially suicidal yes wait until artificial intelligence becomes as it's already becoming integral to our sort of Workforce and economy and wait until while that's the case people begin to take really seriously the idea that it's incredibly dangerous and start saying we need to put an end to this and people start protesting in the streets it's it's coming down the road and when that happens what are people going to say they're going to point to the protesters of artificial intelligence and they're saying they're essentially telling us to Suicide our own Society because it will destroy our and I'll will be one of the people making that critique and that's why I think although you might be right that right now they're dis analogous because people aren't doing that yet I don't think we're far off that okay fine so at some point you believe it will become cultish or religious in nature certainly according to the definition the Francis gave to the same extent that you would because we began you were asking about whether vegan is religion I think if yes then only to the same extent that something like more obvious cases environmentalism wokeism you know but also uh because you know especially I think listeners to the show will will happily think yeah that's a bit religious but when you think about something like AI you think it'd be really weird to call that like a religion but you can see how just having a sort of moral position on an important issue and it becoming basically the focal point of of your of your campaigning can very easily be described in religious terms if you enjoyed that clip you can watch the full conversation by clicking the link on your screen and if you want to get early access to my video videos as well as getting them ad free and support the channel at the same time then go to patreon.com alexo thanks for watching subscribe if you want to and I'll see you in the next one

Channel: Alex O'Connor

Views: 89,596

Keywords: Alex O'Connor, cosmic, skeptic, cosmicskeptic, atheism, within reason, podcast, within reason podcast, religion, debate, Alex J O'Connor

Id: GK1NGjwKLpc

Length: 12min 10sec (730 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 25 2024