DEBATE : WAS CHRIST (PBUH) REALLY CRUCIFIED? | TALK + REBUTTAL + Q & A | DR ZAKIR NAIK

[Music] [Music] Oh [Music] bismillahi r-rahmani r-rahim' in the name of God most gracious most merciful al-hamdu lillahi rabbil alameen praise be to God Lord of the Worlds a respected pastor Saji polical on my right pastor Akhenaten Henry Pio on my extreme right dr zakir naik on my left distinguished guests ladies and gentlemen on behalf of the organizers the india gospel mission and the Islamic Research Foundation I welcome all of you to this unique event today a discussion a dialogue a symposium a debate whatever you may prefer to call it on the topic was Christ really crucified it is being held in a spirit of friendship towards understanding each other's viewpoints I dr. Muhammad Naik am the coordinator for today's program hence I will be neutral it is my onerous duty to ensure a fair and proper conduct of today's meeting therefore I would request our speakers as well as the audience collected here today to maintain your Decorah for a healthy debate before we got here today I was asked by many people why this topic why these speakers only the answer to which I could briefly summarize in the background to this debate Pastor Rockne had come to the Islamic Research Foundation for a discussion with dr. Zakir it was mutually agreed between them that instead of a personal discussion between them it would be more preferable and better to have an open public debate on a particular topic at a convenient hall such that the public too could hear and share in the debate and be the final judge dr. Zakir suggested the topics is the Bible God's Word or was Jesus God but pastor Rockne considered these topics too common and instead suggested the topic selected for today's debate that is was Christ really crucified that's how the topic for the debate and the two speakers are before all of us today as agreed to and decided fair by the speakers the format for the debate will be pastor Rockne will address you first for forty-five minutes on the topic was Christ really crucified then dr. Zakir will make his presentation on the same topic for forty-five minutes then we would have a rebuttal session in which Pastor Rockne would comment and respond for 15 minutes to what dr. Zakir has spoken followed by dr. Zakir to speaking and responding for 15 minutes to what pastor Rockne has presented when five minutes are left to conclude the talk as well as a rebuttal I as the coordinator would hand each speaker a five minutes left slip an indication slip like this in which both the speakers are kindly requested to conclude their talk or rebuttal lastly we would have the open question and answer session in which the audience may pose questions to each of the speakers alternately on the question mics we have provided two here next to the stage and two in the ladies section only if time permits we would allow questions on slips which may be passed on to me and I would read out to the speakers I would like to now briefly introduce the speaker pastor Rockne before his talk and I would likewise introduce dr. zakir before his doc pastor Rock logged in Henry pure better known as Pastor Rockne is 43 years he's an Arab Christian missionary he was born a Christian in Basra Iraq and later on brought up in Kuwait he has both graduated with a master's in science from the University of Bombay he has had variety experience in teaching including computer education and training teaching the Arabic language consultancy for computerization and development of computer software programs in Arabic he has been in the field of conveying the message of Christianity for over a decade he is a Bible teacher and preacher with the India gospel mission he is also a renown faith healer may I call upon Pastor Rockne to make his presentation Pastor Rockne [Applause] just small comment even though my name is rook nee it is a variation of rook Nadine but very rarely people call me Rick Nadine and even in my office document I am Brooke nice oh you call girl clearly there are many things we can discuss and many things we can talk about but practicality doesn't permit so we settled on one topic because you know other goes on and on and then understanding will be lost so we settled on one topic you asked me why I suggested this topic I suggested three things and then this was selected from it reason is because this is a very central topic in the Christian faith and there is a very serious difference between the Muslims and the Christians in this point so as mr. Naik has dr. Naik has suggested we're going to talk very frankly but in a spirit of friendship and understanding so here is just we are presenting our news from our side and left for you to choose what you like and reject what you like we respect each other's views and even when you say no to my views I respect your feelings and I totally honor you're saying no so I'm just presenting them point now a few things I'll be picking up from the Bible but if I go on picking from the Bible and if there is no end to it because there are maybe hundreds of verses related to the cross so some things I will just say it's from the Bible but without really telling you where is it maybe a few things I will treat from the because my purpose is here not that you memorize which part and all that just my purpose is that you understand the message behind it the spirit behind the message of the cross why is the cross central in the Christian faith what is the reason the cross is so important first of all let me comment on the cross itself physically the cross what do you underst understand I'm not saying all many people understand the cross is the following I go to but there's a really bizarre search for a not very expensive jeweler and have a nice shining little bit gold cross and hang it around my neck and that is very suitable to fashion some will buy gold 17 some 18 some gold 21 good nice attractive looking cross going with fashion matching my dress colors and I'll etcetera that is what many people understand of the cross even many Christians that is the end of the understanding of the cross and that was my understanding many years ago I am born and brought up in a traditional Christian faith I am a believer Christian only 16 years ago I came to India not a believer I came to India as a plain traditional Christian but I became a believer here through Indians through Indians no so I received the faith in Christ here and now why the cross so central now the Bible does not refer the cross as something attractive something pleasant to decoration it in fact there is a picture completely opposite in the Bible the portion of the Bible in the old part of the Bible that is the books of the Jews the first half of the Bible we call it the Old Testament in the English language it refers to the cross as something not nice we be surprised it refers to the cross as something ugly it says the cross is a place of cursing the cross is a place where somebody who's to be punished badly and somebody who's cursed somebody who's rejected by society the cross fits in and there is a statement in the books of the Jews the first half of the Bible that says it's God's Word said by a prophet it says cursed is the man who hangs on a tree it was a reference to the tree reference to a cross so when in the life of Jesus the cross was not a pleasant thing desirable but it was a necessity for something shall explain the Bible as you are aware of some of you may not be aware yes quickly is made out of two sections it is 66 collection of 66 books written over a period of approximately 4,000 years it's not one book it's a collection of books and the first half that is the books of the Jews it is mainly prophetic and written by prophets various history in the life of the history of the Jews and right from the first book onwards there is some time almost directly but very often indirectly reference to the cross now the why there is a what where does the cross come why why the cross I have not yet explained it I'll try to come to the point basically it's the gospel it's a gospel the the news of salvation from sin death the cross comes essentially the Bible reveals to us that man is a sinner man is a sinner by nature he inherited that from the days of Adam I was born and brought up and in my nature I'm a sinner and therefore I I sin sin by thought sin by worsened by behavior and many many many things it's the nature of man a sinner and the Bible also says that the person who sins he reaps death a sentence of death there is a spiritual that is natural of etcetera so there is a sentence of death on every human being on this earth because of sin because sin is offensive to God and therefore man and God cannot fellowship together cannot come together because of that enemies in between them and now what happen is this sin is so Grievous and so serious and so great that whatever I do to pay for the cost of the sin to get rid of it it is too small not good enough to wipe sin from my life see if I give charity to the poor it is very nice that's a beautiful thing the Bible recommend to do that but it is not big enough to wipe sin from my life as far is it a good act it is a good act but not good enough to wipe sin from my life okay now God sent Jesus a perfect man a man without sin a man would refer prefer to suffer rather than sin an exception a person who sin did not enter him he was tempted in every way but yet he did not sin therefore the sentence of death does not belong to him as it belongs to all of us he deserved to live forever that was the quality of Jesus from the spiritual point of view from the point of view as man he walked as man on earth like anybody else he had to work for his bread and in many different things like anybody else but from the spiritual point of view he was not worthy of death because sin did not succeed going into him okay so in that sense he was a perfect man now this Jesus obeyed God to the point of being wrongly sentenced to the death of a sinner okay so they for satisfying the justice of God that death is the price for sin a perfect man who don't deserve to be dead who don't deserve to taste for death and he was willing to die on behalf of others paying the price of sin therefore the cost his being is worthy to WIPO essence see that the sacrifices which everybody does and try to remove sin from their life is not successful in removing sin but Jesus because of his value of being sinless because of this value of a being obeying God in the end therefore the sacrifice he offered was acceptable to God as a cost for sin and then that is why the cross of Jesus is central in the Christian life and that is why it is necessary for Jesus to die the death that God knew about it beforehand and that's why he was his death was the key for those who believed in him and those who receive that sacrifice in their heart and accept it they are entitled that their sin is paid for you know it is a cost for paying for the sin you know that is what the crosses in the Christian life that's why it is sinful that's why you moved across from the Christian life you have removed the whole Christian faith now the dispute here is many people not just Muslim some other people also they they say Jesus did not die on the cross that was that was not of course dr zakir will know better than me in details but my part I say Jesus did die on the cross and I'm going to in the time available as now I just give you an idea why the cross is important central in our life because that death was the key for my sins to be removed from my life it's a free gift from God God paid his the price himself Guardians had paid the price therefore what he pays is good and worthy enough to remove sin not like a sacrifice I would do it is a polluted sacrifice because a sinner offering a sinner offering a sacrifice a polluted sacrifice but Jesus a perfect man offering himself though as if he was a sinner he was willing to receive the punishment of a sinner but he was not a sinner it is a sentence of spiritual death than me he said you don't die it give it to me and I'll take it for you and now I'm going to just go through some of the historic things in the scripture some of them are indirectly talking about the death and the sacrifice of Jesus some of them directly very clearly speaking some of them indirectly so I'll go through some a few few things here and there as time permits me now you know the first five books of the Bible are written by the prophet Moses and the first book is Genesis that described the history of God created the earth and the first development of human beings and all times and Babylon etc now one thing is you're absurd some of you and most of you in school have learnt at least heard about the story of Adam and Eve how Adam Eve was created and he had fellowship with God there was no barrier between Adam and even God therefore God and Adam and Eve see each other they talk to each other there is fellowship there is oneness between Adam Eve and God the Creator why because there was no sin between them okay that's at that time before sinning now later when the devil who came in the deceiving form of a serpent and he succeeded causing them to sin never mind what he sinned and all that basically it's written in the scripture some fruit they were forbidden to eat and then they ate it that fruit is not important what is important is is that they did disobey God they did disobey God and something God warned them that they are not allowed to do so when they did that then sin came to earth and then Adam and Eve was separated from God from that day onwards the rift between God and man started many people say how she could see God I wish if God made her why I can't see him why I do so many people wrongly give wrong a bad attribute on God because they see evil around them actually evil is man has made it not God but what happened God is righteous in his judgment and see some of the things that happen in the past very small incident not reading the whole thing's a small part when Adam and Eve sinned against God and then God was so angry with with the serpent so angry with if so angry with Adam each one accordingly receive some measure of a curse in his life now the serpent received a curse that the serpent will be all the days of her life will crawl on the dust and in the case of Eve God at all because you have tempted your husband to eat that which is forbidden from now on your husband rules of you and you'll be in submission to him will be dependent on him and also greatly her birth giving pregnancy there's a great pain increase on her in the case of Adam his main problem was that from now on when he works in the ground the ground doesn't give him fruit easily he'll have to sweat and work very hard till food comes and and then their life was limited because death entered their life from that point onwards they are not meant to live forever their elemental but one thing is very important is related is is about the cross so the indirect reference the cross you Oh God after declaring the various curses on Adam and Eve in if you'd like to write the reference for free just I'll read it just okay it's in the beginning of the book of Genesis chapter 3 says therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden Eden that is in reference to Adam and of course and his family of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken and he drove the man and he placed cherubim and so he drove out the man and he placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden and a flaming sword which turned every way to guard away to the Tree of Life see if those who wish to refer to Genesis chapter 3 verse 23 24 see simply is after God declared the various things on them and sentence of death basically on them God chased them out of the Garden of Eden Eden that beautiful garden which we normally refer to it as heaven but actually some beautiful place where they used to enjoy the place God draw them out from that garden and what did he place at the entry point of the garden he placed an angelic being is called angels have different type of categories one of them is called the cherubim the closest to God so Angelica being standing at the gate of the garden and he's got a flaming sword and the sword is going right left in all directions to make sure nobody enters that garden again see what is what is the way to the garden of even the the the way to the Garden of Eden is only if you pass through that sword there is a sword at the gathered Garden of Eden which is watching over the entry to the Garden of Eden and as a Christian and as I related to other things of the scripture there is death price to enter the Garden of Eden that sort has to fall on somebody because God is righteous and his justice demands that that sword had to fall on somebody he see ad Adam could not come inside they were sword guarding the Garden of Eden that sword is the death sentence on the one who dares into the garden and we see later Jesus willingly gave his life according to the will of the Father and not sort fell on him and therefore the God the day that today the door to Garden of Eden the door to Garden of Eden is open not only to Christians to all those who believe see Jesus said I am the door he said I am the door you want to know the Father you want to know the heaven you want to know the good things of God I am the door Jesus allowed that sword to fall on him so that is in direct reference to the cross our goal is further no Bible is rich of indirect references to the cross and also there is a lot of direct reference the cross just talking about cross nothing else okay now another example is the famous story of the father of all the faithful Abraham now I'd like to commence something very few known that the Christians and the Muslims are brothers well if you know that really brothers not just make you not just to make you feel happy you know really brothers the Christians are the spiritual descendants of Abraham through Isaac the Muslims are the spiritual descendants of Abraham through Isaac and through I'm sorry ash mine which my Ishmael is the brother of like really Muslims Christians they come down from Abraham they have brothers but they are not natural brother they stepbrothers their brothers from different mothers so when I say brother to Muslim it's not just to make him feel nice it's really a brother his spiritual earlier father is Abraham Prophet Abraham and my spiritual earlier father is profitable and same a Brahim okay okay that's just devotion no I'm not a very serious teacher some interesting things in between I put ok now we look about Abraham Abraham had the famous story of being tested concerning his son Isaac now I know some of you are not familiar the Bible so I add a few basics because I know not all of you have read the Bible some of you may have not read so I will just not put too much details but just to get your feel of it now Abraham God told him to come out of wool because the land of sin good is in Iraq is near Basra I've been there now it's deserted there's nobody lives there just some monuments there so because it's a land of sin God wouldn't get out of it get out of wood could come I'll take to a land much better than this a place better than this now Abraham did not know what sort of a languor thing but he obeyed God and he moved and God did not keep his promise immediately it took a long time and for many years he was married to Sarah and she was bad and she couldn't bear children and for many years he got only my I'll give you children so many look at the stars so many stars is there in the sky that much you use your children look at the sand in the sea so much sand is there not much children but for many years you never had children but by faith he believed God by faith he moved you know by faith he moved and after many many years after many years then his wife got fed up you know and in those days not today in those days it was not immoral for a person to marry several wives and even their servant woman can be a wife also in those days it was morally perfectly all right okay now at that time his wife told him why you don't marry you are servant so you can have at least children for money so he did had a servant from Egypt her name is Hagar so he married and he had Ishmael but then it was time for Abraham to have a son according to the promise according to God's Word and his own wife Sarah became pregnant and she bought a son Isaac imagine what is the heart of Abraham after so Lanier's having the promised son you know imagine you are a married and and and for say 20 25 years no children God promised to your son I promised you suppose you are a very wealthy man who's going to take all this money they will cheat me in their Lord tech then afterwards after 20 25 years and your wife expect a baby and a child is born imagine how is you feeling towards that boy after so many years are waiting for that boy that what happened to Abraham that was his heart attachment to Isaac his son and then one very nice Knights something very interesting happens something very interesting happens it is in Genesis nice my pastor nearby he'll help me to pick it up I told you I'm not very great teacher but the spirit of the message I'll give okay even though I now in Genesis chapter that is about Isaac a job chapter 22 it says now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham okay it is sounding very simple but it will really see this thing and say to him Abraham I said Here I am and he said take now your son your only son Isaac whom you love and go to the land of Moriah and after him their offer and they offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I shall tell you very terrible thing happened to him after so many years waiting and the boy become a little teenage you know quite strong he could carry luggage with his daddy's mentioned it so God says I want him as a sacrifice okay now I'll come to the point which I'm saying I'm not putting all things together okay just a few points then Abraham with all the pain in his heart faithfully gets up early in the morning and take all the tools necessary to offer the sacrifices the knife the fire etc and he goes all the way it we got on and go okay and then he left the servant behind and took his son and went to the Mount of Moriah where God has told him and then something very interesting take place very very profound statement takes place here there I shall take shortcut so but Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said My father and he said Here I am my son and he said look the fire and the word how where is the lamb for a burnt offering we got fire around we got wood and me and you alone going up the mountain what is that usually they offer a goat or a lamb but is that lamb huh now see what happens here and an Abraham said my son God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering and the two of them went together it's very profound statement Abraham spoke by faith he said God will provide for himself and offering see he didn't say God will provide a sacrifice he said God will provide for himself an offering now if you read the books of the Christians in the New Testament that is the second half of the Bible the author's they expand on this point and they said Abraham spoke by faith when he spoke to Isaac when he spoke to Isaac he was thinking that God will raise him back from the dead when he spoke to Isaac that's how he spoke something like this happens but not exactly a rose from the dead and then they went up and then they came to the place where God which God has chosen and Abraham built an altar there and place the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar upon the wood notice that his son didn't run away he allowed his father to tie him up although he was a big boy at that time he could run away okay and then what happened cani Brahim stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son but the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said Abraham Abraham and he said Here I am and he said do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him for now I know that you fear God since you have not withheld your son your only son from me then I have lifted up his eyes and looked and there behind him was a ram caught in the thicket by its horns so Abraham went and took the RAM and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son and I have got that name of that place the Lord will provide as it is said to this day in the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided see summary of that thing is summary of that very drop big drama as this is Abraham went up and then he thought God will provide for himself a lamb god is demanding a sacrifice see I'm putting my own words in between I'm just paraphrasing God demanding a sacrifice there is a need for a sacrifice God wants a sacrifice but where is the lamb the sacrifice God will provide for himself the lamb that what happened and that what happened God spared Isaac God spared Isaac God was not even thinking of killing Isaac the Bible somewhere SSS they were just testing Abraham God nodded the business of killing children like that God he gave him Isaac as a gift he wouldn't just take it like that for him okay and and then God through miraculous act he stopped him at the last minute through an angel of God in a very critical point in his time life and he said he gave him one some other thing to be sacrificed not Isaac so here we Christians we look at it this way God spared me God spared me I'm in the place of Isaac anybody who believes in Jesus in the spirit place of Isaac God spared me from the sentence of death of sin there is a sentence of death on me and God's justice demands that wages of sin is death you see and it is right that I should die and go to hell okay but what happened God provided a sacrifice for themselves Christ Jesus is the sacrifice on the cross you look at Jesus you believe in him you receive him in your heart therefore God's justice is satisfied that sacrifice instead of me that any man dies for me is not good enough but Christ dies for me is special there are so many people who die for each other they are sometimes husband died for his wife because he loves his wife that's a very noble act that's a beautiful act okay but I'm talking about saving from sin not saving from small things saving from eternal judgment from Hell from the fire of hell and his sacrifice will not do will not do the New Testament the Christian part of the Bible says God he's talking to believers of course Christians and he said God delivered us not through the blood sacrifice of blood of goats and cows and animals and all that I'm not hurting your feelings just telling you what says but he delivered us through the blood of his own son Jesus Christ see that is so central so central in the old New Testament and post New Testament because of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross my sins were paid for in the eyes of God there is a list of sins that needs to be punished in me but Jesus said put it on me put on me III write that least put on Jesus you see and therefore but if somebody else died for my sin nothing happens I will not be safe from sin oh but only particular person the perfect person is having that that privilege and hardly to die for others who wash away their sins see right now there are many many things written in the Old Testament many many things I'm not going to read all are just going to just refer it to you if you'd like to further I'll help you later exactly 13 minutes okay the Old Testament God gave symbolism of the Cross and you know the story of the Jews being saved from Egypt's very famous story in the history of the Jewish nation they were slaves in Egypt for 700 years and then God visited them and he saved them through miraculous act and he gave them this symbol tonight I'm going to kill all your enemies the children of the enemies at that time and to force them to leave you and he made them slay a perfect lamb a lamb without blemish not sick not blind not limping a perfect lamb and God told him you put the blood of the lamb on the doors of your house and in the night the Angel of Death will come any door that don't have that blood their firstborn will be dead but this what happened to the Jews at that time they they obeyed and they put the blood at the gates and the whole nation Jews nation that night were given permission to leave Egypt so that they are yeah so that was a reference to a perfect lamb a sacrifice of a perfect lamb not an alarm I won't just bring any lamp for a perfect lamp there is a salvation from death that is a symbolism really it was not the alarm it was a symbol of Christ's coming later now you go later one time in the history of the Jews they rebelled against God they did it many times ten major times they did it in the Sinai and then the Serpent's came and just bit them one by one and many were posing through serpents it is mentioned fie Reaper serpents and then God told Moses to do something very strange very strange he told to make a serpent made of bronze brass and put it on a high stick and everybody from the Jewish nation looks at that serpent he'll be healed from the poison of the serpent now it is mentioned in the New Testament comments on that it says see this snake is a serpent is is a symbol of the devil snake is not the devil snake is just the symbol of the devil snake is just an animal okay now what happiness Jesus was hung on the cross became a serpent for us he who was perfect more perfect than angels but he was willing to be like the serpent sin on the cross you look at him you receive him in your heart tonight your sins are washed away tonight you sin you washed away you don't need some religious ceremony tonight his sins are washed away a few receive him he look at Jesus who was hung on the cross that is the sole central so central is the cross in the Christian faith so central and throughout the history of the Jewish nation God told them symbolism a given symbolism to remind them of forgiveness of sin he said you bring a land that is without blemish there is no spot on him he's not blind he is not a limping of certain age only that I accept as your religious ritual sacrifice God was reminding them the future Christ the perfect blameless lamp from the point of view of sin as Manny were just plain man like you and me he all his godly power and authority and qualities he kept aside he worked as a plain man subject to pain and sin sorry temptation of sin temptation of sin so this is the central thing now you come to the New Testament you come to the New Testament it's very obvious about the cross the whole New Testament is based on the cross of Jesus Paul says the Apostle Paul one of their famous leaders in the New Testament he said I preach Christ crucified I got nothing less many people wanted Paul to preach the Christian faith Christianity - cross he refused to do that he said I preach Christ crucified that's the only it is foolishness in the eyes of people who don't want to believe the cross is foolishness beaten from the point of view of naturally who are you your God goes and died on the cross it sounds foolish G it is only foolish but actually it is it is God's wisdom because God's wisdom is different God had to suck satisfy his justice God had to be a blameless person to die for the sins of the world today anybody who believes in Jesus death on the cross he was buried after three days he rose he defeated death after three days and receive his godly Authority again anybody who received that act his sins are washed away your destinations change going to hell go into heaven that's a I plus many other benefits that's just one of the major benefits as they're in the cross now in the New Testament is fully based on the cross you take out the cross the whole Bible is not worth to buy sell I'm talking Bible I mean the books of the Jews I mean the book of the Christians there's one chapter Isaiah 53 so clearly about this so clearly about Jesus suffered and died so clearly so clearly Isaiah chapter 53 now lastly now lastly lastly in the last book of the New Testament is a prophetic book about things in heaven one servant of God by the name John the Apostle there are two John's there one is John the Apostle he saw visions of heaven and he said things about traveling the you've read war and authorities that's Iraq area he predicted things what's happening today in the Euphrates and you can see it for yourself just read the terms of India and you'll see all the trouble in the Euphrates many many things has been said but one thing very special said he saw in heaven the Lamb that was slain see Jesus referred to as the Lamb that was slain of course Jesus is not Lamb physically he's not a lamb he's not a sheep he's a man ok but symbolically he was that perfect Lamb of God well throughout history of the Jews throughout history of the New Testaments Jesus is referred to as a lamb in heaven he's known as the that was lean so if you take out the cross from the Christian faith there is no Christian faith as I'm a list of do's and don'ts that's all there's no salvation there's no breaking with sin there's nothing the cross is very central the cross is is the main thing that God God died on my behalf see he was willing to come down from heaven he was willing to walk his man in the pains that man taste being tempted in everywhere you attempt it if you're tempted Jesus tasted more than what you you think okay you believe on him he breaks that lust and that that addiction and that bad habit and that curse in your life Jesus breaks all that from your life you have to just say yes to him and tonight he go home and just pray to him you receive salvation from sin I think my second America isn't that okay okay one thing is it's for now right now there is one evidence of one one category of evidence of the cross of Jesus is the Bible that is the books of the Jews the books of the New Testament of the questions thoroughly surrounded the cross directly and indirectly directly and indirectly you can read it for yourself the very very reasonably priced than many barber shops in Bombay and if you don't know tell you later okay another level of evidence that Jesus did die and he was sentenced to death is I'll give you it is not from the Bible it's not from the Bible from the enemies of Jesus those who hated Jesus unfortunately the Jews themselves historically they rejected the message of Christ they said this is not really Christ this is a false Christ so finally they sent us to death now if you are aware of the the Jewish nation they maintain current history book as major events takes place in the Jewish nation they recorded with their religious authorities in a book called the till mood some of you may have heard of it if you refer to the version of the Talmud around the time of Jesus 2,000 years ago you will read that Jesus was put to death of course they will say wrong things also they say he was false Christ he gave a wrong message they say he was a magician they said wrong things but one thing they said they say Jesus was put to death because he did wrong things but that is another that is that is not religious that is outside evidence that Jesus did die the people who handle him they did put him to death that's like a third third type of evidence of the cross that is real is the evidence of the holy spirit today Christians according to the teachings of the Bible they prey on the sick they prey on demons they prey on troubles of life God heals God testifies that these people are teaching your correct things not in one incident I myself was healed from a serious fungal disease doctors here they know what I'm talking about and Cleo Singh spondylitis incurable a disease that puts you in bed you cannot walk on it a disease that will waste your life and and sixteen years ago the leaders prayed for me I was healed gradually within seven days I was not religious I was just believing Jesus I was not knowing the Bible but I had not read even by me once at that time they prayed for me God confirmed these people are teaching correct things that cross is real see God heal me and I know people I know people rose people from the dead you may you may you may argue with me I got only two maybe half a minutes more I cannot arguing but there people today rose people I myself happen to me I was walking near mommy Gymkhana one little girl scooter on of over I carried her dead and she was a little less than teenager now I am NOT a doctor I cannot tell you about her internal organs functioning not but as a layman I saw that she stopped breathing and she's totally finished and we rushed her to the hospital I was praying in Jesus name for her and by the time he reached the hospital she revived me she came back to life and doctors doctors just to care for observation but st. George Hospital okay now that is not a confirmed arising from the dead this is give you example but people confront people from the dead was rose in the name of Jesus they defying death today define death they are healing the sick in the name of Jesus God is giving acts of mercy and acts of love in Jesus name the crucified Jesus you have faith in him God would meet you need need of your life God will meet the need today I don't have time I have prayed for all of you but there's no time but some other time maybe you could come to our meeting at the Moodle hall classroom on nine o'clock next one day parade old naka we could pray for all of you my pastor will pray for you some people in the church to pray for you we are not great people we're not great healers as brothers we are just ordinary people I'm just a touching given person I go around housing giving tuitions I'm not a great fellow even my pastor he's managing his living somehow and his wife is working in some hospital like that man we are not some he great healers we just pick things happen but in Jesus name in the hands most of the times people receive healings according to the faith of course God confirming that the message of the Cross is true then many different levels of proof of the cross thank you thank you Pastor Rockne for your presentation now we have the second speaker for the day dr. zakir dr. zakir abdul kareem Naik 33 years is the president of the Islamic Research Foundation Bombay a medical doctor by professional training he has turned around to make the proper clarification as well as removing misconceptions about Islam his main mission in life he is a keen student of Islam and comparative religion in the last three years itself dr. Zakir has delivered more than 300 public talks abroad in addition to his many talks in India he has also participated in many symposia and debates with prominent personalities of other faiths may I call upon dr. Zucker to make his presentation on the topic of the day was Christ really crucified dr. Zakir alhamdulillah what salat wa salam ala rasoolillah Vala ali wasabi edmund am Abad house billahi min ash-shaytaan-i'r rajeem bismillah ar-rahman rahim locally in natinal Messiah is of Maremma Rasul Allah mohamet solution what I can should be hollering in ellezi Nocturna fulfil the vasectomy Maliki be human irritable son Mamata telugu yukina bismillah r-rahman r-rahim rob Bashar al-assad Reem Westerley Emery Wallace Ani yes Cowley respected pastor Akhenaten or ID like to be called pastor Rockne Henry pew pastor Saji the respected pastor saw various churches of Bombay man respected elders and my dear brothers and sisters I welcome all of you with the some greetings assalamu alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu may beef mercy and blessings of allah subhana wa ta'ala of Almighty God be on all of you before I dwell into the topic I would like to clarify the position of Jesus peace be upon him in Islam Islam is the only non-christian faith which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus peace be upon him nor Muslim as a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus peace be upon him we believe that he was one of the mightiest messengers of allah subhanho wa taala of Almighty God we believe that he was the Messiah translated Christ we believe that he was born miraculously without any intervention which many modern day Christians today do not believe we believe that he gave life to the dead with God's permission we believe that he heals those born blind and lepers and court's permission man masks that if Muslims and Christians both loved and respected s peace be upon him then where is the parting of this the major difference is the Christians insistence on the supposed divinity of Jesus peace be upon you and they say that he was crucified on the cross and he died for the sins of Manatee the topic of today's debate if you have forgotten it was Christ really crucified and since we Muslims and Christians both believe in Jesus peace be upon him it's obligatory that you put forth both points of view the Muslim and the Christian point of view as far as the Muslim point of view is concerned we believe the most authentic and sacred book which is the Word of God is the glorious quran and I started my talk by reciting a verse from the glorious quran from surah nisa chapter 4 verse 157 which gives the verdict the Slammys viewpoint regarding the topic of today's debate was Christ really crucified and since pastor rock me he is an arab christian missionary arabic is in mother tongue i do not have to translate the meaning of what i recited in the beginning of my talk for him to realize to understand what is this ah me to viewpoint but since most of us don't understand Arabic Arabic is not a mother tongue I would like to translate the verse which I recited in the beginning of my talk from surah nisa chapter number 4 was the moment 57 which says what holy him they said the Jews imposed in paternal Messiah is of no Maremma that vehicle Christ Jesus son of Mary the Messenger of Allah bamaca Telugu whoa masala boo they did not kill him neither did they crucify him well our team should be hollow but it was made to appear so analogy not colorful fish the fish economy and all those who differ therein are full of doubts mala who be he mean with no certain knowledge in the deepest Sun with only conjectures to follow bamaca true who Yukina for a surety they killed him not this was of the glorious quran is so explicit unambiguous making it very clear that the summit viewpoint is bamaca true a masala boo they kill them not neither did the crucify him mama'll cthulhu Yukina for purity they killed him not no one can be more expressive more unambiguous more unequivocal than the Quran in this was saying that he was not killed if I conclude my presentation right now without commenting or refuting on the biblical point of view what the past has presented as far as the debate is concerned it will be a draw it will be neutral that the Muslims say I found in the Quran Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not daily crucified and the Christian according to the understanding of the Bible they say you are specified it would be a draw but I will not do that I will prove from the Bible itself but the Christians believed in the Word of God that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not really crucified let me first clarify that be Muslims we do not consider the Bible to be the Word of God the Bible make and paint certain portions which we may consider it to be the Word of God it contains a lot of the prophets the more of the historians it also contains absurdity obscene statements which if someone even pays me a thousand rupees now I will not be able to read from the Bible such obscene verses obscene chapters it also contains contradictions but even though I don't believe that the Bible is the Word of God yet I will prove from the Bible that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified because pastor of me and many Christians out here they are agree the Bible to be the Word of God so I'll prove from the evidence because the Quran says in surah Baqarah chap number two first the 100 level but Khalu layer cruel generate the element kana they say the julian question you muslims you shall now enter jannah with all your party with all your righteousness as pastor said with all the good deeds you shall not get salvation that for the pastor said in the storm it's useless with all your socket with the Hajj with the salah with the mark on your forehead you shall never enter general unless you be a Jew or Christian but Carl Elias region with a lemon kana who then unless you are a Jew or Christian alysus Tilikum on EU this is the wishful thinking backwash a backwash rain desires goal tell them how to produce your roof in condoms or the queen but it's not good for you Allah says I'll them to produce their proof if I tell from the Quran that Jesus was not crucified the Christians they don't agree the Quran to be the Word of God so we have to ask them call hatoo burhanakum produce your proof in condoms or the king but if you are truthful and the christians they have produced the proof the Bible as the burhan the Christian says my Bible says this my Bible is saying that my Bible says this my Bible is that let's analyze what does the Bible say and they've produced this Bible in no less than 2000 different languages of the world so let's analyze from the Bible where the Christ was ready to fight and while doing so whatever conclusion I draw from the Bible need not necessarily be - Lamech viewpoint let me remind you that the conclusion drawn from the Bible need not necessarily be the Islamic view point the shamak viewpoint I have made it very clear according to surah nisa chapter 4 watch 157 my marker to Lou Who am a son of gufu they kill them not neither did they crucify its key akka the topic was Christ really crucified what is the meaning of the English word crucified according to the Oxford Dictionary crucify means to put to death by fastening on to the cross accord the Webster's dictionary crucify means to put to death by nailing or binding to the cross in short for a person to be crucified you should die on the cross if he does not die he is not crucified what is the meaning of the word resurrection resurrection according to oxidation it means the act or instance of rising from the dead and resurrection with a capital R means Christ rising from the dead according to the Webster's dictionary the resurrection means the act of rising from the dead and resurrection with a capital R means rising again of Christ after his death and burial in short for Christ to be resurrected he has to die if he does not die he was not a direct let everyone get this definition is very clear in their mind according to Jesus peace be upon him he says in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 19 verse number 16 and 17 that a person can obtain salvation by keeping the law and the commandments but according to st. Paul he nails the laws and the commandments to the cross cross cross cross as we heard pastors in cross cross he nails the law and the commandment to the cross as he faith in Colossians chapter number 2 verse number 14 and Paul says that salvation can be obtained by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus peace be upon it and it codes if you read the New Testament 1st Corinthians chapter number 15 verse number 14 I give the reference so that you know people realize I'm not pulling a fast one I prefer give me references that's why the Bible says this New Testament says this in this encyclopedia of more than a thousand pages they will do fine to make it easy I give references going to st. Paul 1st Corinthians chapter number 15 verse number 14 and if Christ has not risen from the dead our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain as the pastor said that all your good deeds all your charity without believing in Christ died for the sin it is useless and the Christian missionaries the reference didn't give from Isaiah chapter 64 verse number 6 that all our righteousness all our good deeds are like filthy rags if you don't believe Jesus Christ peace be upon him died on the cross for the sin of humanity all your righteousness all your good deeds are like filthy rags and in the words of the past of which I wouldn't ever say he said if there is no cross if there's no crucifixion Bible is less than two points and he says if no crucifixion there's no Christianity and I agree with them and I agree with him and the pastor said that he came to India and he spent more than two decades here and only when he came to India he really realized the message of Christianity previously was only a Christian but he became a practicing Christian from the Muslims here and I remind him that I have only met one Arab Christian before in my life before meeting pastor one Arab Christian I met in Jeddah from Syria and after he attended my talk from the Lilla Bala's grace he accepted Islam this is the second time in my life that personally I'm meeting an Arab Christian and inshallah with Allah said and i pray to allah subhanaw taala to give him hidaya that since he got the teaching of christianity from the indians he will come back to the original faith which is islam which every human being is born in inshaallah after this talk after having discussions insha'Allah I pray that he comes back to the original faith inshallah realizing that there's no crucifixion no cross no Christianity which inshallah I will do in the course of my time let's see what st. Paul has to say regarding resurrection st. Paul he comments on the directed bodies in the same chapter where he says if Christ has been risen a faith is in vain uh preaching is in vain same chapter first Corinthians chapter 15 towards the end of the chapter st. Paul says in 1st Corinthians chapter 15 was 42 to 44 he says that so also is the resurrection of the dead it is sown in corruption it is raised in incorruption it is sown in dishonor it is raised in glory it is sown in weakness it is raised in power it is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body there's a natural body and the spiritual body according to st. Paul the resurrected bodies are spiritual eyes they are Spiritualized same is said by his God and master Jesus peace be upon him in the Gospel of Luke chapter number 20 was number twenty seven to thirty six if you remember the story of a woman who had seven husbands and the Jews come with the poles of the Jesus peace be upon him and it's a Jewish practice that if a man marries a woman and if he dies without leaving any children the second brother marries the wife of the disease rather so that he can give her the seed if the second brother dies without leaving any children the third brother marries so on and so forth so here they come with a posture that this woman married seven brothers one after the other and all of them had her Europe means the header as a wife here one after the other but there's no problem why since each one of them had turn by turn so there's no problem and later on even she lies but the pose the question to Jesus peace be upon him that in resurrection who will have her day indicating during resurrection all the seven brothers will be raised simultaneously along with the woman who will have her death so Jesus peace be upon him says in the Gospel of Luke chapter 20 was 35 36 that resurrected bodies they will not marry neither do they give in marriage verse 36 is that neither shall they die anymore they are equal and to the Angels that means they shall be angel eyes resurrected body will be Spiritualized who says that Jesus is the Gospel of Luke chapter number 20 verse 26 Paul says that first Corinthians chapter 15 was number 42 to 44 it's very clever and there's not a single verse any event the gospel which says that Jesus peace be upon me was resurrected in fact if you did it's mentioned if remember the story that after the Ali's crucifixion when the disciples they met in that body Jesus peace be upon him he comes let's mention the Gospel of Luke chapter number 24 verse number 36 he comes and he says to the disciple shall all which means peace unto you next was Gospel of Luke chapter 24 verse 37 says but they were terrified and affrighted and supposed him to be a spirit I'm asking a question why did the disciples think Jesus peace be upon him to be a spirit did Jesus look like a spirit and when I asked this question to the Christians all of them said no and they're right Jesus Christ peace be upon him did not look like a spirit when he comes to the Upper Room after that his crucifixion so why did the thing that he was a spirit the reason is because they had heard from you say that the master Jesus peace be upon him was put on the cross they had learned from yourself that he had given up the coast that he had died they had learned from your say that he was dead and buried in the grave for three days you're saying you know why because they were no eyewitnesses according to Mark Gospel of Mark chapter number 14 verse number 15 says that all of them forsook him and fled in the most crucial juncture in the life of Jesus peace be upon him when he required them the most all the disciple hundred-person all of them are going to mark chapter 14 verse 50 they forsook him and fled who says that not dr. zakir naik Gospel of Mark chapter 14 verse number 15 all of them for sale so it was from Yosi therefore they think I thought that he was a spirit but Jesus peace be upon to clarify that out it's mentioned the next two verses in the Gospel of Luke chapter number 24 verse number 39 40 Jesus peace be upon him says that behold my hands and feet it is I myself handle me and see for a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have and seeing so he shows them his hands and feet he tells them behold my hands and feet it is I myself what would that mean to you it is me your Lord and Master Jesus peace be upon him why are you afraid handle me and see your my hands and feet for a spirit has no flesh in once what was he trying to prove by showing his hands and feet was he trying to prove that yours is erected was he trying to prove that your spirit was trying to prove that he was not a spirit he was not resurrected next two verses Gospel of Luke chapter 24 verse number 41 42 it says that they were overjoyed and they wondered they thought he's dead and now they're happy that the Lord and Master is alive physical with flesh and bones in front of them they're happy Jesus peace be upon him yet to confirm them says that do you have any meteor and they gave him a piece of broiled fish and an honeycomb and he took it any aid before them through what that is resurrected to prove that your spirit to prove that he was the physical body he ate and he chewed in front of them a piece of broiled fish and honeycomb to prove that he was not resurrected he was not a spirit but he was in flesh and bones a physical body if no resurrection no crucifixion no future if you remember the story of Mary Magdalene when she goes to the tomb of Jesus peace be upon him the third bit it's mentioned the Gospel of John chapter number 20 was number one as well as the Gospel of Mark chapter 16 verse number two that it was the first day of the week meaning of the Sunday Sabbath today is Saturday for the Jews the first day of the week is Sunday it was the first day of the week that Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb now why should Mary Magdalene go to the tomb on the third day after the escape one supposedly was dead why should she go the reply is given in the worst earlier in the Gospel of Mark chapter 16 verse number one that Mary Magdalene goes to massage Jesus peace be upon him to anoint you the world is anoint which the original Hebrew word is masaha means to massage to rub to anoint and from this root word you can even derived Arabic word mercy or the Hebrew word Messiah which means The Anointed One which if you translate to Greek it means Christos from which you get the word Christ na9 today I'm asking a question do Jews massage dead bodies on the third day have you any time heard Jews massaging dead but in the third day and the answer is no I'm asking the Christians do Christians massage dead bodies on the third day and the answer is no do Muslims do we massage dead burden third day and the answer is no so why is she going to the tomb to massage Jesus who has died on the third day according to the Christians you know why because she was the only one besides Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus who gave the burial path to Jesus peace be upon him and when Jesus's body was what don't peace be upon him from the cross she might have seen some life in the limb body but naturally season will you say give the life otherwise they will put him put that again feel certain life in the limb body of Jesus peace be upon him she comes back on the third day after the Sabbath day to look for a life jesus Peabody alive Jesus peace be upon you and it's mentioned in the Gospel of John chapter number 20 was number one and the Gospel of Mark chapter number 16 verse number four that she finds that the stone has been removed and even the winding sheets they are unbound and placed in a pile the question is why should the stone be removed and why should the winding sheets be unbound and placed at the side pileup at the site if Jesus peace be upon was resurrected as a spiritual body does a spirit require the stone of the entry of the tomb to be removed if it's the spirit those cannot stop a spirit from entering the stone did not be removed why was the stone removed and if the spirit has to move does it have to unbound the winding sheets it's not required but it fits the physical body the stone blocking the entry of the tomb has to be removed the winding sheets have to be unbound proving that Jesus peace be upon him the person who came out of the tomb was a physical body and the tomb was a private property of the secret disciple of Joseph of Arimathea who was rich and influential you and he had carved a big roomy tomb may be for himself for future in which Jesus peace be upon him was kept the true or the Sepulcher and according to Jim Bishop he says Jim Bishop not Bible jamesha say it was very roomy very big five feet wide seven feet in height and fifteen feet in depth why do you require roomy too so that if anyone wants to help a person it can be done easily these are small rooms in Bombay it is across 75 square feet 75 square feet flat is big in Bombay we find five six people living in that room in Bombay or the most expensive place in the world 75 square feet you find for five people living so roomy enough if they want to help the person why would they want to help a spiritual body spiritual what isn't gonna help but naturally they want to help a physical body further if you read in the Gospel of John chapter number twenty was number fifteen Jesus he sees that Mary Magdalene from the Earth from terra firma not from the heaven if either and she's weeping and it comes to her and us women by the best how whom seekest how knowing very well what is the reason but yet after she says and supposed him to be a gardener she asked him where have you taken her and laid him so that I may take him away I am asking a question why did Mary Magdalene suppose Jesus to be peace be upon him a gardener I am asking a question do resurrected bodies look like gardeners do they yes or no no so why should she suppose that jesus peace be upon him was a gardener and the answer is because he was disguised as a garden now why should a spiritual body be disguised as a gardener this guy for together the gardener peace be upon him because of the thread of the Jews a spiritual body need not be afraid of the Jews by because according to Hebrew chapter 9 verse 27 a man dies only once and after that is the day of judgment Jesus peace be upon him said in the Gospel of Luke chapter number 20 was number 36 neither shall you die any more means if your spiritual eyes you don't have to be afraid of anybody no one can harm you you cannot die a second time if he Spiritualized why should he be disguise why should he be afraid why should he be in hiding why should run away from the jews proving that he was not spiritual body but he was alive and he fails to marry marry the one what is sufficient for Mary to recognize her Lord and Master you know because everyone has a particular style of calling the beloved one and the tune in the style which you call a beloved one is sufficient to recognize who is the person she immediately recognizes that it is Jesus peace be upon him and she rushes forward toward you Gospel of John chapter number twenty was 15 16 17 Jesus peace be upon him says that's me not why my touch-me-not easy a bundle of electricity that someone touches him the person will be electrocuted if he a bundle of dynamite that if someone touches they will blow up why does he say touch me not because he was a physical body imagine the ordeal the pain the physical pain the emotional pressure that he had going through all that so-called supposedly put on the cross put on the cross all that pain and torture it will hurt a physical body if they touch me not and then continue then it says in Gospel of John chapter 20 was number 17 I have not yet ascended unto my father meaning what that he has not yet been dead Jesus Christ peace be upon him and it locally says that he has not yet been resurrected proving that he was alive later on it's mentioned in the Gospel of Mark chapter number 16 verse number 11 that the disciples they had heard that Jesus peace be upon him was alive from her Mary Magdalene but the believer you know the Jews their habit of posing questions troubling the messengers the Quran says that the Bible says that the post question to Moses peace be upon him they troubled him and they harassed him same that with Jesus peace be upon him further it's mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew chapter number 12 verse number 38 the Jews come up with a displeased eponymous a master Arabic meaning o Lord why don't you give us a sign sign meaning a miracle miracle all the good works that Jesus Christ peace be upon him did was not sufficient to convince the Jews they said give us a sign give us a miracle maybe like flying in the air like walking on the water like walking on burning charcoal lavond it's a miracle sign here doesn't mean a sign on a lamppost like I have signs on the roads it's not that same it particularly means a miracle and if you read the New International Version it says a miraculous sign words the reply Jesus peace be upon him give what the reply he gives in the next was Gospel of Matthew chapter number 12 was number 13 and 14 save you evil and adulterous generation seeketh be after a sign you seek for a miracle no sign shall be given to you but the sign of John so I Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth Jesus peace be upon him doesn't say that he go and meet Bartimeus the blind person who I gave sight why don't you ask women with issues who only are touching me she was healed hidden refer to the two thousand pigs he had killed to heal a possessed man he doesn't say that the five thousand and the three thousand people he fed with a broiled fish and with bread he says no sign shall be given to you but the sign of Jonah Jesus peace be upon him is putting all his eggs in one basket the sign of Jonah and for a person to know the sign of Jonah he doesn't have to be a scholar of the Bible it doesn't have to be a Doctor of Divinity because it is taught in Sunday schools and most country including India irrespective whether you're a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu some way or the other it is taught either in comics or in model signs lessons the sign of Jonah Oh Jonah and the Whale they know but if you want to know the sign of Jonah actually in the Bible in this big book the sign of Jonah is less than two pages less than one and a half page had the Xerox copy done from the same Bible to make it easy less then one and a half side less than half side only four chapters and to find one page in encyclopedia more than a thousand pages is difficult but everyone knows the outline of the story that Almighty God he asks his messenger do not pity upon him to go and deliver the message to the Ninevites to go to Nineveh but he says these Ninevites they are so sinful what will they listen to the message he thinks that they will make fun of me will be waste of time so he goes to Joppa and from day is setting sail to Tarshish now while he that see there's a huge storm and it was the superstition of the Marines of that time that if there's a storm at sea it is because someone has disobeyed the master and they had the own ways in trying to find who was the person responsible they had the system of casting of lots and when they cast lots it comes to the tone of don' peace be upon him and Joe not being a messenger of Almighty God he agrees and he says that see I'm the person responsible I was told by my master Lord to go to Nineveh but from Joppa I am setting sail to Tarshish running away I am at fault you take me and throw me overboard but they say this person such a pious person why should simply he be killed so they try and throw the ship but yet they are not successful the storm is yet there so he says that why don't you throw me overboard and finally they agree and it's room when the swimmer would the storm subsides maybe we draw the coincidence later on a big fish our will comes and swallows do not leave me upon it Jonah please to Almighty God from the belly of the whale the whale takes Jonah be upon him for three days and three nights round the ocean and then vomits him out on this issue what was the sign of Jonah Jesus peace be upon him says that no sign shall be given to you but the sign of Jonah for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth now I'd like to ask your question when Jonah was thrown overboard was he dead or alive before you answer I would like to make it easy for you let's see Jonah volunteers he says I'm the culprit I'm responsible throw me overboard if someone doesn't agree maybe left to break his leg you may have to break his his neck you may have to twist his arm but you volunteers so you don't have to do all that so they throw him overboard I'm asking you a question when Jonah was thrown overboard was he dead or was he alive the fish comes and follows him was he dead our life all right he prays to our mighty God from the belly of the whale was he dead or alive two dead men pray was he dead our life [Music] the whale takes Jonah three days and three nights in the ocean dead or alive all right fish vomits him out on the seashore was he dead our life a lie alive alive alive alive when the person is thrown overboard in the raging sea he ought to die if he dies no miracle if he's alive it's a miracle which comes and follows him he ought to die he doesn't die it's a miracle three days in three nights suffocation and heat in the belly of the whale he ought to die he doesn't die it's a miracle it's a miracle of a miracle of a miracle miracle of a miracle of a miracle jesus said peace be upon him as Jonah was three days and three nights so shall the Son of Man be three days and two nights as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man with three days and three nights in the heart of the earth Jonah was alive but when I posed the question to my Christian business and they are our brothers they are our cousins what are you called yeah brothers when I posed the question with the Christians that how was Jesus peace be upon him in the tomb according to you and all of them say that he was dead he was dead I'm asked my question Jonah was alive Jesus peace be upon him was dead who was Jesus peace be upon him I like or unlike Jonah like on like unlike so Jesus peace be upon him does not fulfill the prophecy he puts only like in one basket and says no sign shall be given but the sign of Jonah and here the prophecy is not fulfilled for the prophecy to be fulfilled he should be alive as I proved in the earlier part of my talk he was alive otherwise Jesus peace be upon will be a liar no-spill de which we cannot agree we respect him we revere him so for him to fulfill the prophecy he should be alive and Jesus peace be upon him was alive as I proved in the early part of my talk as I said that for a person to be crucified he should be put to death on the cross if he does not die on the cross he is not crucified there are some people who may say that see her the main part of the sign is not dead or life it is a time factor time factor you know three days and three nights as Jonah was in the value of the whale so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights three is mentioned four times the main important emphasis is three three three it is not dead our life I say what is so unique about three if I say I took three days and three nights to reach Delhi is it a miracle what is a miracle about three three days or three weeks but they said no it is a time factor let's analyze whether Jesus Christ peace be upon fulfills the time factor which the Christian some Christians say is the main theme of the sign as I said earlier and we know that when we ask the Christian that when was Jesus Christ peace be upon him crucified and open with the Bible the Christians we say on a good Friday so we asked him what is so good about the Friday they say Jesus Christ peace be upon him died for our sins therefore it's a good Friday and if you read that it was the trial was in a hurry they were hurry for the trial they were know how to put him up on the cross they were hard to get him down because as pastor said no one can stay overnight hanging on the cross on the Sabbath according to he didn't mention the reference Deuteronomy chapter number 21 verse number 23 the land will get cursed so there was honey to get him down and they give the burial bath and it was by the time late in the evening he's put in the Sepulcher late in the evening and I've got no Gospel of John chapter 20 verse 1 you know the first day of the week Sunday morning that the tomb was found empty by Mary Magdalene so supposedly Jesus was in the tomb on Friday night why do I say supposedly because the Bible does not say when does Jesus leave the tomb may be left on Friday late night or solid amount it doesn't say agreeing that later she might have left is in early morning on Sunday so Jesus was in the tomb Friday night supposedly he was day in the tomb Saturday day supposedly he was day in the tomb Saturday night supposedly Sunday morning the tomb is empty so he was there for two nights and one day but the sign says three days and three nights three days and three nights as Jonah was in the belly of the whale soul shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights but Jesus peace be upon him was actually one day and two night is three days and three nights equal to one day through night vivid equal to definite equal no so even the time factor which the boast about is not fulfilled the real thing is Jesus Christ peace be upon him was alive for a person to be crucified he should die on the cross just to make easy for the pastor in the reported time he has list the major points proving that he was not crucified he was not resurrected because you are the life if you the life no crucifixion no resurrection he was put on the cross and bought down very fast in three us in three hours is difficult for a person to die therefore Jesus first alive when he's brought down even his to cross mates they are alive proving that even Jesus was alive fine number two point number three his legs were not broken what use is a broken leg to a dead man proving that he was alive point number four that the stone was removed and the binding sheets for unbound proving that Jesus peace be upon him was all right fine number five that he was this guy's as a gardener why because he was alive trying to be saved from the Jews point number six the tomb was roomy it was spacious what uses spacious - for dead person proving Jesus was alive point number seven that when Mary Magdalene goes to touch Jesus peace be upon me safe touch me not why it was a physical body was alive it will hurt him he was in pain proving that he was alive Viva Spielberg nurses that I have not yet ascended and to my father that means he was alive point number nine Mary Magdalene not recognizing Jesus peace be upon him point number ten that in the upper room he shows his hands and feet to prove that he was not a spirit but he was alive point number eleven that they were overjoyed to see him why because they thought he's dead and the spirit form they were overjoyed to see because he was alive point number twelve he ate a piece of broiled fish and honeycomb to prove the divers alive the disciples that heard from Mary Magdalene that he was alive point number fourteen the sign of Jonah as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth alive alive alive if either life no crucifixion no resurrection so in short Jesus Christ peace be upon him was put on the cross one to the Bible but he did not die now the topic is was Christ really crucified if he's put on the cross and if he dies he is crucified if he's put on the cross and does not die what is one word that will use the English language is deficient if you look up in the dictionary for a word for a person who's put on the cross but does not die you will not find anyone so we have to call new word the best word that we can point is that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified but you're who's affected it is not crucifixion see are you CI f i x io n but this crucifixion see you see I I see the i/o and it's a fiction we have to find a new one so Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not to see fit he was Kushi victim so I hope this ends the friction and the pastor will agree and the confusion will be removed from his mind that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified there is no crucifixion fi stern but crucifixion if I see I point I'd like to end my talk by giving the coalition of us Quran from surah al Imran chapter number 3 verse number 54 says former Karuma car allahu w'allahu khayru McLean they planned and plotted Allah to plant Allah is the best of planner Walker Darwin are hungry level jazakallah now we have the second part of the program the rebuttal session may I call upon Pastor Rockne to present his rebuttal for 15 minutes Pastor Rockne thank you doctor as a kid for your point I saw a lot of illogical discussion some of the things missed the spirit of the word in many many different so badly went illogical is difficult to even discuss it but just a few points and making it are not commenting on everything a few points I'm just bringing about because my purpose here is not to win an argument my purpose here is to present solution for your life from sin Jesus the crucified that's my person even if I lose the argument okay that's my purpose here all right now number one is about talking about embarrassing thing in the Bible is this the Bible is so faithful in the truth is like a faithful mirror if I have ugly face my mirror will tell me you're ugly if I have handsome face my mirror will tell me you are handsome Bibles like that that's why it represents both sides of people it shows the sin and disgrace of people to what extent people sin against God at the same time it shows to what extent people could be pleasing in the sight of God that's why the Bible is a balanced record of human condition you will not tell you simple a wonderful man never made mistake no he'll show you the faults of simple you look at other literature even Islam and other literature they make a man like God to show him so perfect made a mistake only Jesus never sent okay shows Paul his good points is by he was so bad-tempered I would never want simple to be my CD pastor you see he had a fight with his pastors he had fight with Peter I think right about food or something John right and so many other things I would never show you both sides many other things the the Prophet the servant of God Joseph in his secret life he was a practicing divination he had a cup of divination he was a wonderful servant of God where he had a weak point he was seeking the secrets through divination it's it is it is not from Sal many aren't so many people they have the good points they have their bad points the Bible show you that no one is perfect so is it a good point and the bad points Jesus is the only one who never sinned against God the Father even that when he was a small boy he disobeyed his parents but later he followed them they he did not accompanying them as it was expected for my young boy 16 years old or 12 years old then when they came back and rebuked him he followed them he was learning he was good as a man he was learning the Bible says in the book of Hebrews he learned he learned obedience that means he was less and he learned that is the natural Jesus but as far as sin he never sinned against God okay so the Bible is a faithful record good and bad you see you want to see how man can be read the Bible you won't see how wonderful man can be read the Bible a criminal like Paul can be st. Paul God can make any one of us like that this is a simple uneducated fishermen can be a leader of the world read that in the Bible you don't need a PhD you don't need some MSC you don't need some degree you read what what what John didn't order ordinary man without education he would he lead the whole world okay so in terms of looking at the Bible second thing the Bible's full of symbolism all so many ways God talks about many things in symbolism right that's one thing concerning the concerning that capital r and small are in the dictionary i have not examined that point but from doctors Aquis words III get it resurrection with capital i is given as an example of resurrection and i think he misunderstood it he resurrection is rising from the dead comma an example resurrection of Jesus from the dead capital ah that this example is misunderstanding of the sentence I don't think it is a religious point of view it's just example most missionaries give you an example with the word so I don't think it's something to do with we Christian take capital R makes it resurrection of visas and small our resurrection something else I don't think it's Lana it's not that with his misunderstanding of that way right now another point he says crucifying the commandments but Paul talking particularly not the commandment itself he's talking about what the commandment has passed judgment on me because I am a sinner that list of my judgments because of the commandments that's the one that fell on Jesus on the cross it is not not crucifying the Bible or aspiring God's word that is used that is meaningless illogical you know though the law is holy and pure and the law was meant to expose sin not to heal sin but to expose sin but Jesus came to heal sin okay so it is not crucifying the commandments through crucifying the curses and the punishment that the commandment spells against me that list which says I have to go to hell you know that is the one which is crucified with Jesus it's the curse that was crucified Jesus received curse on himself okay but Jesus is also dead he the whole Bible is doctors it is saying that no air and the Bible says Jesus rose from the dead I was so shocked to hear that now I would I would it took me just one second to locate it and my pastor located you could read it sometime something in like example Matthew 28 verse 6 read a little before laughter later and concerning another one is you look at Revelation chapter 1 verse 8 christ through the spirit he talks about himself I was dead now I am alive I was dead now I'm alive there is no philosophy about it there was a dead man and now he's a live man no nothing nothing playing in words or some Greek word or something very simple now next thing is talking about being confused about whether this one looks like Jesus there's a lot of mystery about the new bodyguard promised to those who die in Christ and a little bit reveal about it number one Jesus walked through the walls the doors were closed he walked through the walls that new body is able to overcome the natural things number thing that body looks like is able to hide itself see Jesus walked with two disciples after he rose from the dead their eyes was prevented from recognizing him to the way of Emmaus and then he explained to them the scripture explain to them the scripture and then we came to the house he broke bread then the eyes are open and this is Jesus not only Mary Magdalene did not recognize him there are others who did not recognize him till the point he wanted to reveal himself then they recognized him it looks like that body had something very special it can change its form and why did why did Jesus show his hand he wanted to show something special on his hand it was a there was a hole in his hand see I am the one see look the Pierce I'm Jesus see I'm Jesus you he showed them her he showed them aside also because the soldier pissed him on his side see I'm Jesus I'm not a different one this body having the mark of the Cross the mark which I received it looks like this body even though it's a new body but it has a semblance of the old body mystery we don't know anything about the new body but we know it is supernatural body it has a new glory it's a greater glory and it resemble it is able to - - you could say that that is brother Rockne Union resurrected body but and in times I can't you can't recognize me I can I can just walk through the wall III and there are marks in body I can show you see this is my mark you remember there was a mark here see that is me looking something special that that word Jesus were trying to say that secondly in concerning their to being big it's a very clearly written Bible the tomb belongs to a rich man a rich man will not go to a cheap small room he will have a nice spacious place for his full family it's not a question Jesus living inside the tomb you won't go and live inside the tomb in a mock Bora Stan that's not a good place for him it is very clearly rich you mentioned that the tomb was provided by a rich man and a rich man you expect him to have a nice big tomb for his full family members second thing you just would like to remind you it was the custom from the time of Abraham to bury the dead in a cave not in the dust in some cases people were buried in the dust some papers sometimes they were cremated but mostly people were put in a cave Abraham and his wife Sarah they were put in a tomb which is a cave it was not buried in the dust so this rich man provided a stone cave fitting for a rich man big size and all that now you may say why the stone was was open the answer very simple it is very clearly mentioned the angel of the Lord removed the stone when one of those I think Mary Magdalene or some other one came a mighty angel removed the stone and the earth shook and the two soldiers got frightened and fell down like a dead two men and the angels told these two women you don't be ascared it's not meant for you to be scared it is only for something I'm just putting my own words it is meant for this father to be scared enough for you I have just removed me to show you look he's not in the tomb see the tomb is empty that one it is it's the tomb was empty that was the purpose of removing the stone to confirm to them that his body is not inside his body is not inside there the the clothes fitting a grave is not fitting for him their clothes fitting the grey for the grave that is a white cloth they wrapped the people now nowadays at those days I don't know it's not suitable for him just kept aside all the decide the Saltine is folded aside so that is concerning the two speak yeah okay their next point is concerning John other prophets Jesus said like Jonah was in the - in the wave three days and so on so Jesus did not say I'm going to be put in the whale's mouth he did not say I'm going to be in the whale's mouth and the way will take me three days in the sea he did not say that he said like this similar to as an example of Jonah I will also be three days in the bottom of the earth if you only take it literally did Jesus going down in the whale mouth no he was in a cave in a in a cave which is considered to be a graveyard McCory Stan it was a symbolism just like Jonah was three days in the mouth in the stomach of a whale so I will be also buried in a tomb three days second thing it is mentioned in the Bible on the third day he rose it doesn't specifically say 24 hours and so many minutes in so many say on the third day he rose so whether he rose one hour before when our it's not mentioned what time he rose just mentioned that they weren't early and I found already rose there's no specific time mention to him and finally I think my time is over finally I don't need the four minutes yes finally I want to give you one point I just give you one point it is written in the Bible the privilege of seeing the miracle of Jesus rising from the dead let me see him after he rose I mean the other way is not for everybody it's only for those who believe for 500 of them 12 and 120 and some totally approximately 500 the whole Jewish nation because of their unbelief unfaithfulness rejection of God's purposes they did not have the privilege to see Jesus rising from the dead they they did not see Jesus alive after his death so you two today don't harden your hearts and go the way of unbelievers because God will reveal himself to you if you go the way of faith receive the words by faith simple faith faith receive him as a gift from God he will reveal himself to you if you had in yourself you said this coma is twisted white and that come as lucid left and then you'll end up like the Jews be rejected don't do that receive him tonight soft in your heart he you will receive forgiveness of sin and resurrection from the dead at the appointed time thank you thank you Pastor Rockne about one minute left may I now call upon dr. Zakir to present his rebuttal for 15 minutes alhamdulillah what's a lot was Salaam fully lavalla Olivos obvious main am a bad house billahi min ash-shaitani rajim bismillah ar-rahman rahim what cool jaw chuck was a karate another battle economy oka bismillah r-rahman r-rahim not visually sadly well cilia me what I looked at the Malay sunny yes totally respected pastor of me and he said that I spoke everything illogical also he's going to give a logical replied all of them and he did touch on few of the fourteen points that I mentioned a few of them which I reply inshallah to each and every and you be the judge who is illogical me or the pastor the pastor said that the definition in the dictionary having checked but they are grieve that I speak throughout the capital are are called the dictionary Jesus Christ peace be upon him was risen from the dead for resurrection he has to rise I don't tell pastor to agree with additionally because he may not agree with the history I may not agree but he has to agree with the Bible st. Paul says that in 1st Corinthians chapter number 15 verse number 44 that resurrected bodies ha Spiritualized Jesus Christ peace be upon him said in the Gospel of Luke chapter number 21 number 36 that the resurrected bodies their angel eyes their spiritual eyes does he believe in Jesus or no peace be upon him so according to Jesus peace be upon him for him to be resurrected he has to be a spirit not a live body and all the 14 point which I mentioned proves that he was alive he said that mirroring to the cross the Rhine the commandments who said that Paul not I Paul in Colossians chapter number 2 verse number 14 which went against the teaching of Jesus Gospel of Matthew chapter number 19 verse number 16 and 17 who says keep the wrong commandment I agree with Jesus peace be upon him if you want salvation keep the law and commandment Paul says nearly to the first and pastor sell all your good deed I useless if no crucifixion Bible is less than two pies and I prove there's no crucifixion the Bible Jesus Christ people did not die point number three said I said show me one verse in the Gospel where Jesus Christ peace be upon him is mentioned as he is resurrected not a single he quoted Gospel of Matthew chapter 28 was number six he said and I'm reading it he is not here for He is risen as he said come see the place where the Lord lay he is risen it is not said that is erected resent means he is alive I sleep and I rise doesn't mean I'm resurrected doesn't mean that the pastor said he saw a girl according to him she was dead the doctors he says according to Jesus peace before she was healed she comes back to life what she'll have elected pastor no she was resuscitated Jesus peace be upon him was not resurrected from the dead on the cross he was resuscitated point number four he says the Bible says Jesus peace be upon him walk through the world no where is the mention the Bible it's an assumption it's an assumption no where it is mentioned in the gospel walkthrough it's an assumption which we can clarify if you know the background which time doesn't permit Jesus wanted to show his hands then feed why to show the holes who's saying that pastor not the Bible Gospel of Luke chapter number 24 verse number 37 faith that behold my hands and feet it is I myself see my hands and feet it is I myself for a Spirit has no flesh and bones he doesn't say see the mark on the hand it's of nails that's what he see that's what Thomas wanted Thomas wanted to see in the upper room he shows to say I am NOT the spirit to prove what he was not deserted point number 6 he says that the tomb was big because it was a rich man's tomb which already said in my talk it was the tomb of rich and influential you Joseph of Arimathea didn't hide that my number 7 why was the stone removed and the pastor said the angel removed the stone I didn't ask who removed the stone I asked why was it removed and the pastor said to show to the people that Jesus is not dead if I agree with you for sake of argument to show to the people Jesus his people was not there why was it necessary for the binding sheets to be unbound the question is stuck together stone removed and binding sheets unbound it was unbound and placed it is mentioned in the Gospel of John chapter 20 that it was unknown and kept even Gospel of Mark chapter number 16 which there's no plan the only answer is because Jesus Christ peace be upon him he was alive and because the other life he had to unwind the sheet as well as move the stone he said that Jesus did not go to the Vale peace be upon him well - hey Jesus go away his English was very clear Jesus Christ peace be upon him says in the Gospel of Matthew chapter number 12 was number 38 to 40 that as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth Jesus case will not say he will be three days and three nights in the belly of the whale I think you cannot understand the plain English with Jesus said as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth so where is the question of he going in the value of the will it's plain English like Jonah was in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth Jonah was alive so Jesus Christ peace be upon him to fulfill the prophecy even he has to be alive but the Christian says he was dead so for him to fulfill the prophecy he has to be alive the pastor said time factor and I do agree now the gospel says he rose on the third day so he fulfills the prophecy of time factor and there are other Christian missionaries who when I spoke to they said that see as pastor said wonder doesn't mean 24 us and for sake of argument you can agree and there are the missionary told me that if I go to new off two o'clock in the afternoon Monday afternoon and then leave from New York next day early in the morning and if someone asked me how many days have I stayed in Europe I would say two days technically is wrong but for sake of understanding no two days though he did not even spend 24 hours if he's a student we can take for sake of argument the Bible says around a pastor had to agree with him Jesus Christ peace be upon him rose on the third day part of a day can be taken as a full day so if I agree with pastor dough and go into the details you know when was he put into the tomb late in the evening on Friday if he say the early in the evening I agree for sake of argument he says afternoon I agree he says suppose that Jesus Christ peace be upon did not leave the tomb early in the morning on Sunday he left in the afternoon I agree so Jesus Christ peace be upon him was part of the day take it as a whole he was Friday one day Friday night Saturday day Saturday night Sunday morning even if you stretch and give you off here and there it comes with three day then two nights the sign of do not even say as Jonah was three days in the belly of the whale so shall the Son of Man be three days and out of the earth it says as Jonah was three days and three nights so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in that of the earth how much of it three then tonight he does not till the end three night whatever gymnastics we'll try even if you ask I'm trying to help you you can never prove from the Bible it is three days and three nights never and if a Christian missionary tells me that he goes to New York two o'clock in the afternoon leaves next day in the morning it is two days I agree but if he says I stayed in New York for two days and two nights I will tell him he's a liar he's a big liar maximum you can fill two days as a figure of means part of the day is a full day for sake of activity but he can never say two days and tonight if we say that he's nine and he says the last point says that no one saw Jesus Christ please be open in my life which have proved in my talk and I've given 14 points which we touched on a few which have again clarified logically that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was alive that means according to st. Paul according to Jesus peace be upon him according to Oxford Dictionary I found a Webster's dictionary he was not crucified neither was he resurrected if he is not specified no crucifixion no and in his talk pastor said and explained very well in the talk about the original sin and he said that every human being and a call to the teaching of the church every human being is for instance every man child has the taint of the original sin the original sin which he described and rightly says what he described but the reduction is not logical he said that Adam and his peace be upon them they disobeyed God and they ate the forbidden fruit from the forbidden tree therefore Almighty God he punishes them and he says that removes them from paradise isn't that enough it was the seasoning of the reference it's Genesis chapter number 3 verse number 16 he says that you man we shall toil in labor and your woman you shall be the desire of the husband and you shall be labor pains pregnancy the curse upon the Bible after that the Christians say that every child that was born from the time of Adam he's the opponent till the last child born till the end of the world is born in sin I'm asking a question when Adam peace be upon him ate the forbidden fruit did he ask me did he ask me before eating no he may have asked the pastor I don't know didn't ask me if you didn't ask me why should I be responsible why illogical is God illogical no and they have the system of treatment of sin that God sent His only begotten son beloved son for sacrifice so that he can sacrifice for the sin let's see what does the Bible have to say about that they talk about atonement of sin a ji gave his life for the sin of humankind and it says and he said and the Christian mission is also see that you know the soul that sinneth it shall die it's mentioned twice in the Old Testament the guild chapter number 18 was number 20 Ezekiel chapter 18 verse number 4 the soul that sinneth it shall die but if you read Ezekiel chapter 18 verse number 20 that's not the end of the worst it is only the starting of the worst the complete was safe the Christian missionary says the soul that sinneth it shall die therefore every human being is born in sin therefore have to believe in the crucifixion to get salvation the complete verse says Ezekiel chapter 18 verse 20 the soul that sinneth it shall die but the son shall not bear the iniquity of the Father neither shall the father bear the image of the son the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him it continues next was chapter 18 verse 20 105 Akhil but continuances but if the person turned away from the sin and he does all that is lawful and right he shall live he shall not die who says that Bible Old Testament as a keel chapter number 18 verse number 20 21 you shall not die if you Rachel did you shall not die upon him said if you want salvation keep the laws and Commandments it is Paul who says that if Christ is not risen from the dead our preaching is vain and your faith is vain and I've proved that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not really crucified and people him asked me that do Christians have one particularly only about the friction it's a misconception that all the Christians have only one view that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was really crucified it's a misconception because there are biblical Christian scholars who say that Jesus Christ peace be upon him did not die on the cross he was put on the cross but you have brought down he was alive in early Christianity there are no less than seven sects which believe that instead of Jesus there was somebody else put on the cross it's known as the substitutional theory the early Bohemians we believed in that the car pockets are Christians they believed in that the Nazarite the believed in that the Corinthian they believed in that the Christians many effects believed that instead of Jesus Christ peace be upon him somebody else was put on the cross he feels the gospel of barnabas pastor may not agree with that he was a contemporary of jesus peace be upon him an eyewitness he says that instead of jesus peace be upon him judas was put on the cross if you read the scrolls of Nadja Hammadi it says jesus christ peace be upon him was not crucified all Christians I didn't say these things in my talk because pastor will say I don't believe in the Gospel of Barnabas I don't believe in the school of nizam body so what does he believe in he believes in the Bible so I prove from the Bible that Jesus Christ peace be upon him he was not crucified and they say that Jesus Christ peace be upon him he died for the sins willingly he gave if you read Gospel of Matthew chapter number 27 verse number 46 and the Gospel of Mark chapter number 15 verse number 34 when Jesus were put on the cross he cried out Li Li la Mohabbatein li li lama sabachthani which means all God O God why hast thou forsaken me imagine Jesus peace be upon him will on the cross and then grime on the cross all God Oh what if I had all forsaken me proving that he did not go willingly on the cross why should we cry and every Bible you pick up whether the English Bible whether the Hebrew Bible whether you pick up the Marathi Bible or don't do Bible the original Hebrew statement is there li li lama sabachthani and then the translation o god o world by health office again me to prove that JFK's peace be upon him did not bring me gone and I would like to say in the conclusion the jessica's peace be upon him he was not crucifix it was crucifix it and I like to give the translation of the worst which I decided the meaning of my talk from sir a surah chapter 17 verse 81 he says what will jar huh kazarka batted in neuropathy lock on ahsoka went through the whole again falsehood falsehood parishes for falsehood is by its nature bound to parish water the 100 level [Applause] now we would have the third session of today's evening that is the open question and answer session to derive maximum benefit in the limited time of approximately 50 minutes that we have for the question and answer session the following rules should be observed your question should be only on the topic was Christ really crucified questions out of the topic will not be entertained kindly state your question briefly and to the point this is not a lecture time for the questioners pastor Rockne and dr. Zakir should answer comprehensively and that answers should not exceed five minutes only one question at a time may be asked for your second question you would have to stand at the back of the queue again and await your second chance for mics have been provided in the auditorium for the questions from the questioners - next to the stage for the gents and - in the rear for the ladies if you wish to ask a question to Pastor Rockne you may please line up behind the mic which says question for Pastor Rockne for example the question Mike on my left next to the stage is for Pastor Rockne for the gents similarly the mic on my right-hand side next to the stage is for questions for dr. Zakir similarly in the ladies section it's written on the mic a slip written questions on slip papers which are available from our volunteers in the aisles would be given secondary preference and only if time permits kindly state your name and profession before putting forward your so that the speakers have an appreciation of your level of question and given appropriate response we will allow one question at a time in a clockwise rotation alternately addressed to each speaker maybe have the first question from the gents on my right for dr. Zakir my question is to for dr. zakir naik jesus was crucified for the sins of humanity can a person be as someone else since there was a question that can a person be crucified for somebody else's sin and it's a very logical question part of it I had covered in the rebuttal and I proved from the Bible that according to the Bible the book of ezekiel chapter 18 verse number 20 and 21 says that the soul that sinneth it shall die but if he turned away from the sin and the righteous did he shall not die and neither can the son where the nuclear the father neither the father can bear the nuclear the sun means i cannot be responsible for my father's sin neither can my father be responsible for myself a similar message is given the quran in several places if you read in surah anaam chap number 6 was number 164 infra chap number seventeen verse number 15 it's mentioned in so i farted chap number 35 verse number 17 in surah az-zumar chapter 39 verse number 7 in several places it says that no bearer of burdens can bear the burdens of another same method as the beguine chapter 18 verse number 20 that means sin cannot be inherited pastor in his talk that be an example of Abraham peace be upon him that God asked his son to be sacrificed and I do agree with the pastor him only detest him and at the last moment he puts a lamb that means Almighty God he's just he wants to test his messenger but while testing he does not want to harm the messenger he cannot see that the messenger son dies while testing and imagine now we have that the messenger Jesus peace be upon him himself is put on the cross for somebody a citizen it goes against Ezekiel chapter 18 verse number 20 sin is not inherited if Adam peace be upon committed sin I will not be responsible for this sin he has committed and like an example if I give you there's a master a rich person he has many servants he tells the servant don't do wrong things etc but did the do wrong things so he tells them since this is my son I love my son and he kills that son and then he faith all those servants we used to rob we would put cheat now just believe that I killed my son for your Robin and I will give you salvation I will give your wages does it sound logical the servants robbed they cheat they caused loss to the master master says nobody hears my son I kill him don't change your style just believe just believe that I killed him for your friend and I forgive you a silver Jeep originally it's an illogical illogical Almighty God putting your own son and we don't agree the son we do not grieve the begotten son as a righteous person as a person of God we agree he is a Messenger of God in that sense he's the son of God but not the Prachanda son of God folk dances yes brother further than respected question in the Bible Gospel of Mark chapter 16 verse 17 and 18 it says and this signs shall follow them that believe in my name they shall cast out Devils they shall speak with new tongues they shall take up serpents and if they drink and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not harm them now if this is true can you bring this poison or deadly thing because according to me it would surely harm you but as you are a believer it should not harm you can you prove this to us by drinking it anyway if anything happens it we are not responsible for it ya see it is written in context or people serving the Lord and there are times like it happened in China and Russia people were forced to take poison in that context not in the context making fun of God in that context you will have the power over these kind of things so in the context of make a believer if you are a believer nothing should happen to you not just you're a believer in a context of serving the Lord and not in the context of making fun of God so you know you have put forward your question let the speaker respond in the manner he wants your question is over you can hold your bottle and send them without speaking yes brother it is written concerning Christ if he falls he will not break his leg the angels will protect him Satan wanted him to jump and prove it he said no don't tempt God I give you the same answer don't tempt God the next question from the ladies section for dr. zakir any question yes sir dr. zakir naik my name is ezra and i would like to ask a question that question of jesus peace be upon him being crucified or dying only arises for the sin of humanity humankind only arises if he is gone what is the concept of divinity of Christ in Islam and Christianity this is a very good question I just like to comment on the earlier answer that pastor if and I'd like to come rise with him he said in his talk that Jesus Christ peace bear wonders miracles and from this your faith increases and when he came to Bombay he had a disease like spondylitis and I know being a doctor it's a very serious disease and Jesus Christ peace be upon me healed him and he has a pamphlet on that Jesus guys gave life to a girl he says now I think it's faith has gone down he doesn't want to have the poison maybe faith has gone down if you had believed love had the poison is gone down and I congratulate him he's coming back to his original faith that is Islam and feed upon him said in the Gospel of Matthew chapter number 24 verse number 24 which phase for they shall arrive many false Christ's and false prophets and they shall show wonders and miracles and if it was possible shall deceive the very elect miracle is not the test to prove that you are divine or not that you're a man of God or not that whether you have faith or not according to Jesus peace be upon him sisters very good question that what is the concept of divinity of Jesus peace be upon him and Islam on Christianity again one was insufficient so ramada chap number five verse number 72 it says lockup Ciavarella's Enoch are you in the law who will massive new marry me they are dim cough they are blaspheming those who say Jesus peace be upon him the son of Mary is a las manos ala bakr al masih but said Christ yeah when he's right Oh children of Israel I will do la worship allah rabbuna become with my Lord and your Lord ain't no mystery Allah and anyone no throated partner with Allah Karim Allah or Jana I love it make the Nostrum for him oh mama who non-valid lives almond and sod and fire shall be is dwelling place and he shall have no helpers near after if you are Soviet partner with Allah if we say Jesus is Allah genitive Haram for you no salvation for you what does Christianity say as I said there is not a single and equal cross state me in the complete Bible where Jesus Christ peace be upon him himself says that I am God already says worship Me I challenge any Christian including a pastor to show any unequivocal statement a complete Bible where Jesus Christ peace be upon him himself says that he's God already says worship Me they can be certain statement which can be assumed but in context is clarified in fact Jesus says it's mentioned the Gospel of John chapter number fourteen verse number 28 my father is greater than I Gospel of John chapter number 10 was number 29 my father is greater than all Gospel of Matthew chapter number 12 verse number 28 I cast out devils with the Spirit of God Gospel of Luke chapter number 11 verse number 20 I cast out Devils with the finger of God Gospel of John chapter number 5 was number 30 I of my own self do nothing either your I judge and my judgment is just for I'm sick not my will but the will of my father if anyone who say is not my will but God's will in abortion and genes case before all the Muslim not my will but the will of Almighty God he says in the Gospel of John chapter 14 verse 24 the words that you heard are not mine but my father do I send to me Gospel of John chapter number 17 verse number three this is life eternal so that you may believe in Almighty God and Jesus Christ whom how I said it is mentioned in the book of Acts chapter two verse number 22 that hero is right Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of god from amongst you by wonders and miracles which God did by him and your witness to a man approved of God amongst you by wonders and miracles which God did by him so Jesus Christ peace be upon him he never claimed divinity he was one of the mightiest messengers of Allah subhana WA Ta'ala Bob Johnson thank you maybe have the next question from the ladies section for Pastor Rockne believing in crucifixion or resurrection is the only way for salvation and if Jesus died for the sins of humankind then how will the people who lived before Jesus attained salvation this is very important topic it is mentioned in many parts of the Bible something which have an answer to this the cross is central in history the Christian look behind 2000 years ago have faith in Jesus timeless they are saved because of their faith in Jesus the believers before Christ Abraham and all the famous faithful people they look forward by faith they were prophets they look forward by faith to the times of Jesus they have faith in Him and therefore they are saved it is mentioned that when they died because of their faith in Christ of the future then Jesus when he died one of the first things he did he went down wherever they were captives and they set them free because they died in faith they could not go to heaven because the price for the sin was not yet paid but they were kept safe in custody some spiritual place and Jesus went down in the deep places and set them free and when Jesus died on the cross many so tunes of holy men of all times open and they walked in Jerusalem they saw them with their own eyes so the the past-tense people look forward for Christ in faith they were saved by the act of Jesus on the cross the present people that's myself and many others look behind and we are saved because of our faith in Jesus the cross is effect is timeless the cross is timeless for pass humanity future humanity present humanity thank you yes rather yeah - the result are cool and I'm a student in the upper room Jesus appeared in a form of spirit isn't this proof that he died and was resurrected the brother has posed the question that Jesus Christ means pay upon him he appeared in the form of the spirit in the upper room isn't that proof that he died and resurrected the worst according brother is some gospel of luke chapter number 24 verse number 37 which I gave in my talk and I described it says that the disciples were terrified and affrighted they supposed that he was a spirit supposed they thought he was a spirit it doesn't say that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was a spirit and to clarify the next few verses Jesus says in the Gospel of Luke chapter 24 was from a 39 in 40 he says that behold my hands and feet it's I myself handle me and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones it was a mistake on the part of the disciples they thought you are the spirit which was clarified by Jesus peace be upon him that you check three Mahan's see my field and to know that I'm gonna spirit so even a point that was it gives proof that he did not die and he was alive body proving he was not resurrected okay thank you yes prithee good evening brother chuckling I am going to ask you a simple question but it is not from the subject because you have not touched the subject at all to my knowledge you have spoken about I mean many things Bibles and the balls teaching and everything but you have not talked more than five minutes on the subject so whatever you have spoken I am going to ask the question on that only you say Moses has written five books the five books of Genesis Exodus Leviticus numbers and Deuteronomy these were written by Moses if Moses has written the books how he would have said that no one knows my death over against a dead pair and Moses was 120 else how is it possible so the person if the gasps do you know that the Bible is not the original English language returned Bible it is from the Koine Greek and Arabic Arabic it may be Hebrew Hebrew and Aramaic it is that these are translation the Bible is a translation so whatever you have returned now something you are you said to Angels remove the stone there you have written angels in the original great it is a word Zhen Zhen you are translated into angels when it comes to the question of disciples I mean John's there you said disciples no you are playing with the words now you tell me which version of the Bible is a correct you have different versions and what language is the Bible expansion is I don't think this anglish because if I am Alive thank you brother no question it's a very sentences is a very serious one here because I have not understood anything from the pastor about the subject because he has spoken about the Moses says and these are that - I am I have tossed the question accordingly you have to relax the rules please so this is the question I am going to ask you what language is in the Bible whether it is English or is some other language suppose you know if i am i lying i am sharing this reading something like past tense you have to explain to me what language is that brother has a very complicated question one day we'll go for a chai wallah I will sit together and discuss it together it's a simple question if which version is a true version and what language Moses has spoken Moses being alike either brother this somebody goes by - brother Jesse let the audience decide whether the answer is right or wrong or whether is given the enough answer a lot rather you cannot be the judge alone give me one in two minutes brother you can explain he said Bible is the mirror Bible is Samir rather he said listen brother we appreciate your enthusiasm we appreciate your enthusiasm but you should understand our rules I will repeat brother we appreciate your enthusiasm we appreciate the answer given by brother Rockne he said we'll discuss it with a chai wallah you're welcome he's he'll pay for it also right brother Ali okay ready that's it may we have the next question for dr. Zakir from the ladies side assalamualaikum brother what is the concept of Trinity and how is it related to crucifixion f IX Iowa yes suppose a very good question that what is the concept of Trinity and how is it related to crucifixion f IX I orient thank you for clarifying that that will be difficult for me to answer again it's not meat viewpoint and the biblical viewpoint Quranic you won't be beginning again Quran gives the answer and so remind that chap number 5 verse number 73 look at cultural novena Carlo in a la sala fusa lhasa that they are doing cook they are blaspheming those who say that God is three in one that missed annuity and inference a chapter four was 1:7 even says voila Kulu selasa do not say Trinity this has stopped it it's better for you voila Taku selasa the opportunity is mentioned in the Quran no less than two times but if you pick up the Bible in the complete Bible the word Trinity is not mentioned anyway if you read this big encyclopedia it is more than twice the size of the Quran actually you know this is in small writing this is along with Arabic and English and commentary the Bible actually destroys the size more than twice the size of the glorious quran nobody will you find the opportunity no way the closest was that any Christian can come to regard the concept affinity is from the First Epistle of John chapter number five was number seven which says for there are three that bear record in heaven the father the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one to close this verse the guy in Trinity First Epistle of John chapter five verse seven and if you read the revised standard version this is the King James Version which I'll showing which is the most popular this is the Revised Standard Version whether one do know which version I'm even answering you to in one and trying my level based in five minutes time RSV Revised Standard Version version means no authentic Falls differs and the Christian boasts of 24,000 manuscripts of the Bible but no two identical this is the New King James Version with pastel first two this is the doer version which has 73 books that thrown out seven books out of this with the Catholics referred to as a fabrication who has done that the pedestals pastel Bible is the New King James Version has only 66 books it's a different Bible there are various Bibles various in IRF we have more than 25 different version more than 200 different types of my you can come into photo violence coming back to a question in the Revised Standard Version which has been revised by title scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different Christian cooperative nominations they said that the King James Version has got grave defects and when they revise this they have thrown this verse which is the closest resemblance to Trinity First Epistle of John chapter 5 verse number 7 as a fabrication as a concoction as interpolation they throw it out who not Muslims not Hindus had to Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty different copy nomination they're throwing this verse which is a closest resemblance Trinity as a fabrication the word material then exists Jesus Christ people never claimed divinity as I mentioned earlier and in the Catechism of the church they say the father is a person the sign is a person and the Holy Spirit is the person but the an 3 person that one person person person person but not 3 person one person what is this one plus one plus one is three but the Christian says one the Christian that when we think about the father what is the mental picture you draw and a Christian you know the mental picture like Almighty God like Santa Claus sitting in heaven with the author footstool many says the word or the Sun or Jesus peace be upon him somewhat like Jeffrey hunter in the movie King of Kings Jeffrey hunter blonde hair white they look like a Jew he doesn't apologize but like Jeffrey hunter and when they speak about the spirit something like a dove that came when John the Baptist baptizing Oh like this more at the feast of Pentecost three different picture but when you ask the Christian how many pictures do you see he tells you one however might you try you can never impose the three picture at one but when you ask them how many pictures they say one they're lying to you because one plus one plus one is three it is not one and they give the example let's see the constant opportunity is very difficult to understand a person can be a father can be a brother and can be a businessman at the same time so why can't Almighty God the Father Son and Holy Ghost that's it fine let's analyze the example suppose is a person who's a father and a brother and a businessman suppose the sister goes and say something to the brother a secret but naturally even the father and that person will would even the businessman will know but if you read the Bible our Gospel of Mark chapter number 13 verse 32 it says J stevia for me says that of that day of that I knoweth no man knoweth no in jail not even the son but the father in heaven that means of the Day of Judgment even Jesus care doesn't know even the angel doesn't know even this predators they know only Almighty God knows that means they are three month then three in one the Trinity is the concept which is illogical how much you try you cannot superimpose suppose they say that Jesus Christ peace be upon if I agree with him dad on the cross do you mean that even God died on the cross we would request as we are allowing the questioners to ask any odd question he wants to ask we would request them to bear with whatever answer is given by the speakers on my right left pastor Rockne and doctors are killed whether you like it or not they have a right to answer in the manner they would like to even if they refuse to answer if they refuse to present any answer they have a full right for it that is the decision even if they don't answer they have a full right for not answering let the whole audience be the judge you can discuss the details after the program maybe have the next question from the ladies for Pastor Rockne I would I would exhort your patients please the speakers as well as the audience in the beginning of your talk you said that the evil is actually taken out by man himself it's not given by God but then according to the theory of original sin you say that the man is born with the sin so don't you think it's a contradiction can you please clarify it yeah man has inherited not sin but the nature of sin okay that means man has inherited the tendency of sinning but suppose a baby dies what happened he's innocent he'll go straight to him that's what I believe okay but the baby is not going to pay for the price for his daddy and is all that you know because as rocky preferred from the Bible is correct he's not responsible for his father's fault as far as sin and punishment in hell is concerned okay so nature of sin I inherited from my father Adam I sin because I'm a sinner understand sinner means nature wanting to do wrong things because that's Annie that's what I inherited okay not there so when man starts sinning himself and his counting against him himself so that resolve the problem open her now second thing man does inherit curses there is sin and there is curses Bible indirectly and learning various places and good time to talk about it I don't pay for the sin of my father but I do inherit curses and you experience it in your life my father did a lot of mess but he died not thank God he died a believer but I suffered today because a lot of wrong things he did I inherited no not-not-not my accountability to God as a sinner not my accountability to God as a sinner okay but he did a lot of things which is sinful and it happens that today I am facing a lot of difficulties in life it's a curse it's a curse so distinguish between sin and occurs distinguish peace in occurs curse is a harm as a result of sin is the damage which sin does okay so there is two things Christ can do to my life number one he he obtained forgiveness of sin for me so I will not be accountable to God I am forgiving my sin number two he breaks the curse of my life that's what the Bible says not only he's having authority on earth to forgive sins but he also took Michael curse upon himself he became a curse on my behalf whatever curse was supposed to be mine you believe in him the curses start breaking from your life curses start breaking from your life so you distinguish there is sin and they discuss - the two different thing I hope I have answered properly I hope but at least just for the question for dr. zakir dr zakir naik you my name is Richard I'm a Bible School Bible lover and also filter by trade I'm a technician you refer to the Bible speaking about Jesus saying that they will be like angels spirit body like spiritual eyes also you said in the Bible there is no a mention no nowhere mention about the resurrection I will quote just one and many other this is Matthew Robert 16 was 21 it says from that time forth began Jesus Susu unto his disciple how you must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things of the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed and be raised again the third day and this is the three times and all the Gospels mention it not only so the Bible speak about how he's hang on the cross for six hours gave up his ghost after crying allah-allah pathani how I got wise of fulfilling the scriptures then we see all the four Gospels mention about his death about his burial and resurrection now you say Jesus cannot live is respect to the spiritualizing of the body which is another topic glorified body is different as spiritual heavenly bodies different we were better than angels today we have worse than animals so how this has come come about to be in fact I'm not having a discussion I'm not I have learned by God's love and mercy and I've got the answers to all your fourteen points and I would like to come to Islamic Research Foundation and give you these answers biblically not to win an argument I would I would love to because I've got it's true that Trinity is not in the Bible it's not this but Jesus Christ being divine I can let youth know structurally and even your conscience even though all creation feel back I give you today I brought many things in the Bible what the original there is a numeric there is a mathematics in the Bible which can it's a it's a perfect it's proof so I've got these things for everyone can avail of them mathematics proving student question please please no this is my question that how Jesus Christ mentioned many times that he will be killed and he will be rising again again if you want another quote I will give in chapter 20 was 19 each other and shall deliver to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourge and shall crucify them and third they shall rise again okay just whew whew just feel the question is complete yeah I'm I give a little nobody give you and also you know Bible as all the ayah is not in the religions every Sunday we have program at IRF at the hoodies you can get their press every Sunday every Sunday 10:30 and after the talk is over you can ask any questions that you feel every criticize Quran you can even I'm just telling you we love it we love it we like to discuss in friendship or better understand the Bible brother you can even ask on the Bible no problem not ask I will tell you on the Bible yes the most welcome like you told me just now yeah but they said he quoted from Gospel of Matthew and he quoted what he quoted jesus said he will die and he will rise he said that I agree even we agree will die and he will rise in his second coming he will die and evil and that resurrection in the second coming which is mentioned in the Quran the Bible will be the true resurrection through death and true resurrection what you are saying that what is put on the cross you died you say that from your Satan but when you check I do now some people say oh we saw him dead the soldier says if you read again Gospel of John chapter 9 I give you quotation Gospel of John chapter 19 verse 33 we saw him to be dead like how pastors are going to be dead he's not expert he said like a lame man so in the soldier like a lame man for him to be dead today best if I did doctor request endoscope he requires the pulse we have machines like ECG EEG heartbeat brain and yet doctors make mistake never I've got with me so many articles then a person died for three hours and then he got back to life three days several in South Africa in Philippine all these cases doctor testifying with instrument with instrument here a soldier named and testifies that doesn't mean instead we that meghanwithanh so the new claim you can go back to the kiosk in question now come on Sunday so it was from hearsay where they died or not actually I prove fourteen points you said we can answer all you have been answered a single he was alive you're alive as a life that means he was not resurrected he will be resurrected I believe every Muslim believes in the second coming when he comes he will be resurrected and the Quran says in surah my the chap number five were 700 1617 he says that Oh God you be the witness I never told them to worship me as Almighty God but I said Allah worship Allah Rob you Arabic Oh who's my Lord and your Lord Jesus Christ peace be upon him he preached nothing but what Almighty God wanted and he preached that you should worship only one God not worship him and I said that earlier there is not a single unequivocal statement you said there are statements the Bible saying Jesus was divine there is not a single and equivocal statement and the complete Bible by Jesus Christ peace be upon him Himself says there is God or where he says worship yes he will come again he will come again for what the Koran says in surah nisa chapter 41 58 that Allah subhana WA Ta'ala raised him up and to himself he was raised up a life for what in his second coming he will not teach anything new the Quran says for him either chapter 5 verse number 3 Islam on this day have I chosen for you your religion and chosen for you Islam I have completed a fate for you nothing new can be taught he will be coming in the second coming not to teach anything new to the Muslims he's becoming in the second coming to testify that I never said you were shipped me to testify that I never claimed divinity and I haven't mentioned the Gospels also in the second coming people will say Oh master Oh master did you not do wonders and miracles in your name so Jesus will tell them ye men of iniquity ye sinful people who depart from you I don't even know you who will attend those Christian you're claiming good miracles in my name you get out from here I don't even know you he will come in the second I mean and that time has the Quran says in surah al-e-imran chapter 3 was my 95 Kunlun of Sanjaya the morning every soldier our taste of death he will die like a human being and then inshallah he'll be resurrected we are waiting for that before the day of judgment he will surely do that hope damn some questions yes brother the paste I have a question for you for Muslims there are four to five major criterias which he has to fulfill to enter into Jannah but has given to understand even from your talks and even from the neighbors I have heard that for being a Christian since the Christians are sinless sinless in the sense they'd be white up their sins will be wiped out because of the sins which are inherited which are taken or by Jesus so that means that if a person tonight if he accepts that Christ has died on the cross for the sins of the mankind does it mean that his sins past and future are wiped out and he will enter into the gates of heaven it is written in the Bible if you believe in Christ of course you believe in Christ means what he did and what he taught and he confessed sin you say it confess me use your tongue say it let me receive him in your heart then your sins are forgiven and your dis so my interpretation that means this your destinations changed you're not in heaven at that moment yeah now that means if I read the Bible I believe in each and every word of the Bible I believe in the death of the Christ the crucifixion the so called crucifixion then tomorrow I become a rapist or I become a terrorist and I go on killing everyone still I will be entering general you see if you if you have genuinely believed in Christ today you will not be a rapist tomorrow life will be so changed see the things that means you're lying you did not see Jesus the thing is there is only one single statement which shows that you have to believe in Christ that he died for the cross that he died on the cross and therefore the sins of the mankind that is the only criteria which I know even in your talk we have said the same thing if you believe in Jesus you faith is interpreted acts of faith according to the book of James Yacouba if your faith is not counterfeit not pretending your faith will produce things in your life but if your faith is a counterfeit just two just two sure then your faith will not produce acts of faith so suppose I'm a criminal today hmm I believe in Jesus I repent ask forgiveness of sins all these things comes in believing in Jesus repentance means I have changed I turn my way and no more wanting to walk the way of sin then God will help me and I will succeed not following that old way of living my life is changed now I may commit mistakes that doesn't mean I have abandoned the faith a small baby he loves his daddy still occasionally he disobeys daddy there is a level of disobedience okay there's a level of disobedience and there is a level of rejection and rebellion so if I summarize it if I believe in Jesus today I repent ask God forgiveness God will break my sins I have genuinely not just pretending he knows the secret I'm saying it in words or knots and then that would produce things in my life I wasn't quit there are many people who are playing in words in Islam and one person he confessed that he is Muslim and he say la la la la la so because he wanted to take the custody of the children from his wife so somebody take taught him the trick if you say that then the Sharia I will say the children belongs to you because your wife is Christian so therefore they mean your favor he did so he did so then they told him Allah who was a judge he's just saying la la la la he doesn't mean it he said no no no no only God knows the intentions he said it we heard it it's a proof he's a Muslim only God knows intention that was he was just playing games in words you know really he wanted to take custody of the children now in the Christian faith God knows whether you're genuine or not if you really believed in Jesus God will break sin over your life he's done it they're drug addicts are broken even medical couldn't help them but they succeeded there is an organization called Teen Challenge they got such a big percentage of success even the best rehabilitation for drug addicts they never succeeded they only get 2 percent 3 percent and the boys go back and the boys go back and the boys go back these people successfully people for years they broke with drugs because they're basing on help helping the children on the basis of faith in Christ Christ is a practical solution not just a religion a nice fancy drawing and some lovely book with a little bit of colors and all that Christ is practical for a daily living yes may we have the next question from the ladies dr. Zakir any question for Pastor Rockne from the ladies accountable to God for our sins then why should Jesus be crucified for us see pastor Rockne yes yes why will God punish Jesus for our sins if we are accountable to our sins why should Christ died for us the secondary God punished you no see the the law exposes sin that is law of Moses before Jesus he tells you their standards of God expectation for man basically he tells me a house in how sinful I am okay so religion has no remedy as far as human is concerned there's no remedy and the law of Moses is a confirmation sin has no remedy whatever you try you'll fall again now Jesus came to break that chain okay now I told you that my talking earlier if some friend of mine died for my sin his death has no value in the eyes of God because he is only counted for himself but Christ is very unique Christ is a man who is not worthy of death He is God took flesh on himself kept his power as God aside okay and walked as men now as far as sin and judgment on him he's not worthy of death therefore he is a blameless Lamb no one on this earth is a blameless Lamb in that sense so therefore his death was he was very precious and the value was fits that only this kind of person dying and there's only one such a person in history that only then he has that unique office that he he can't take away my sin no other person can do that so that is the reason because day his his being not as committed sin makes him that blameless acceptable lamb before God that that is the reason why his position is very unique that's a reason I hope I hope I made it okay his position as sinless person who is not worthy of death that makes him the perfect lamb acceptable to God to receive sin of people so does that mean that we are not accountable for our sins if he just believed in him you see I just mentioned to the gentleman believe is translated into real acts of faith there are people who believe just for some various benefits maybe we'll get some some good salary from some foreign organization there many people do that but God knows the secrets okay well I'm saying if you believe your life will show your life is show okay Judah's they scary it believed what really it was not really fair after we saw for the sake of 30 pieces of coins he betrayed his master really from beginning he didn't believe that was a counterfeit belief conditional belief belief only if things goes well okay so the book of James says if you believe your life will show okay it's not believe I don't mean just say words you know I mean say words he mean it okay I mean in in a sincere heart asking acknowledging my helplessness because of my sin and asking God to forgive me in the name of his son Jesus that's the only way to receive forgiveness of sin whatever you do there is no other way sorry but if you're saying that God took the flesh and bone think you have put your question for the pastor has explained we cannot have another I mean I said by pastor that a true believer in Jesus Christ will never become a will never become a rapist tomorrow but if you see the Christians are on a whole you see that every Christian do sin so that means you're trying to say that no Christian is a true believer of Jesus Christ [Applause] you are talking about non-believer Christians there are many people who have the labels or being Christians there many people having the labels or being Christians and they're doing at Pross cities and there even the British when they were in India and my personal opinion if it hurts you I don't mind I'm sorry but they misrepresented Christ in India they were Christian name like if I my name is Sharma I'll be called Tony and Johnny that if I become a Christian really a heart is not changed only external don't these are not representative of the faith of Jesus there are there is I said at the earlier there is believers Christians and there is traditional Christians they're not the same he's traditional they just mix up of religions just having the label of Christianity that that way you're looking at the people who are traditionally two different things we Christians we don't worship idols we don't put photos and bout it I asked my pastor we don't know I stood that in the past and refused and I started reading the Bible and the Torah and I stopped doing that I never knew I used to worship idols I used to pray to the dead spirits and God has forgiven forbidden such things I never kneel I was also called Christians I will also call Christians I I used to pray to two persons other than the Almighty God mediator a mediator of mediator a mediator a mediator a mediator and all these things a God only God can forgive sins and you are you are mixing between the person having a label Christians and a person who is a believer Christians I'm talking about the Bible Christians about those who believe in the Bible though that dynamic issues and those type of Christian are talking about okay so you maybe have seen people who don't believe in the Bible they just call Christians they may be having some Western name or something now we just have allow another three more questions before we wind up those who are steady I would request no further people to come up and fewer because you would not get a chance we have one brother here will allow one more brother and I think that he's we have been waiting for a long time okay will allow you the third question before we close the session the management has given us 10 minutes so Brockie you are telling that in the Bible somewhere it is written that when Jesus came back the disciples were terrified and they were afraid while they'll afraid when he's not dead mother has a question that when JFK's people go to the upper room but the disciples had gathered a why were they afraid when you are not dead that is the question we had asked doing the talk why was their Fritton answers given because they thought you have the spirit they thought he was the spirit that's for him telling him so they did not know that but he is dead okay come tomorrow you pure day and you come here everybody will get a scan and run away from here I agree with you I agree with you suppose if I read in the newspaper that this person fell from the tenth row yeah and you think he's dead but tomorrow if he comes I'm going to get scared but they tells me when I fell down there was a lorry of hay going I didn't die weight from her she had heard he had fallen any died but when he comes I figure doctor examine him I shake his hand he's alive so initially I'll be afraid but when I check what with them I'm not afraid similarly your initial disciples died let me come feed on so then you can speak no problem I'll give you time you can come again you can come to IRF let me complete that so they thought the Bible says Gospel of Luke chapter 24 was 37 they were affrighted and terrified and supposed him to be spit supposed who say that not dr. zakir naik who says that luke they thought him to be spirit but then he says handle me and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones then the more joy falls them afraid because they thought he of the Spirit when he proved to them in Aveiro spirit they were overjoyed who say that gospel of the gospel says that Jesus was dead and he was buried and then he comes you said that I'd rather you said that I don't know I'm rather you have asked a question here excuse me the brother you've asked your question the speaker is given is a response I think God has given most of the people here good heart a good mind and they can decide for themselves we are not going to comment on it what the decision of the audience is let them decide for themselves that is the basic premise we had of this friendly discussion so that we come to a better understanding of each other's viewpoints and not fight over it just understand each other's viewpoint in its proper perspective we have two experts who know their job let them give the answers if you know it better tomorrow you hire a big hall and maybe invite someone else and people will come and hear you they are happier in your now yes brother you can carry on with the answer all the states will go from Jersey they taught him to be a spirit because they had heard that he had died heard from your say there one died witnesses who says that roster of mark chapter 14 verse 50 all of them fled at the most critical juncture of the life of Jesus Christ peace be upon him they all forsook and left him who says that the gospel says that they fled first from your scene and he proved to them by showing his hand that he was not a spirit and pastor said and he gave the reason for salvation the questions to questions posed earlier and the pastor said that if we believe in Jesus Christ peace be upon him he has died for your sins and then after that we should not say I don't get it that if someone has paid for my sin and what is the problem in me doing sin if someone tells me go to a restaurant deliver bad I have paid for our bills eat as much as you want and then sell don't have chicken and say why you have paid for my bill - chicken don't have mutton I say why that mean you told me a lie when you told me that you paid for everything whatever you have eat as much as you want for your full life now why you tell him you don't have chicken don't have mutton that me told me a lie so Jesus Christ peace be upon him paid for our sins and what's the problem in as reaping what is the problem in as robbing so this logic if you understand it doesn't go into the logical mind of a person yes brother that's the second last question for mr. Rockne my question Rockne as you know that every country have his criminal law and anyone who is doing the wrong thing is going to be punished according to the criminal law of the country and because even they even though if you take up a newspaper you will see a thousands of murders and rapes and a lot of things are going on in the world suppose as you said earlier in your speech in the being in the beginning that Jesus was already crucified he was not crucified for his sins but he was crucified for the scenes of human being for the scenes of Christian if we believe that Jesus was crucified for all Christians then what is going to be the situation of the world realise complete yeah it is written that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that anyone who believes in Him will have the gift of salvation not so potentially it is for you and for everybody the who is going to the end of the situation after that if he's everybody starts believing that yes huh and I can kill you right now here huh and I can tell to modern to the code that Mister Jesus is crucified for my sins and you cannot testify I mean then can you this guy should not be testified that mr. Jesus already crucified for him I have answered this question earlier in the book of James in Hindi in your courses if you really believe you will not kill me you will not give me your I did and you that if mister if the heart is killing today here huh and he should not be testified tomorrow in the code of the law of the Indian Constitution yes can you give me in writing now just a minute I will believe tomorrow that mr. Jia boss Jesus was crucified I will believe tomorrow and I will be a perfect Christian see there are two things in sin as I said there is seen and there is damage of sin okay there is sin itself a simple thing I can tell you know you are you are a believer you are a believer a perfect believer or is a Christian huh today morning I told my daughter I I want to know each and every know our table from one to twenty you read it and I would I will listen in the yuning just to keep me happy she learned everything she kept in mind and repeated in the evening mrs. Atkins is not a Christian he is a Muslim but he can quote each and every verse from your Bible any Bible huh and you are a believer you say I am a believer I am this and there and I love Christ but you cannot go to a single line from the Bible brother I would I would request you to maintain which answers have to put forward your question rather than passing comments on what the speaker knows or doesn't know that is his right what is or doesn't know yes you just put forward your question and away tannins I mention they're up there is sin there is sin there is a result of sin okay now for example I a poor man who just survived by little food I'm a thief I robbed his food and he dies he got no food to eat okay some time back some time later some faithful God servant come and tell me you're a thief and you should not do that then I realized I have done a horrible thing which cannot be repaired there's a man died because of my robbing but he reforms me cos Jesus to forgive me my sins and then my destinies changed my destinies changed that is true that's a fact it's a promise in the Bible it is God's Word but can i repair the damage I have killed a man I denied him his food and so there's no then the police will catch me and according to the law of the country I may have to be hungry because of that yes I I have to bear the consequences of the harm I did but I but my soul is safe because my destinies change God has wiped my sin from his presence but there is a damage I caused which is so serious and there is a price for it in this earth so many sins there so serious I cannot repair it even after become a Christian there is another situation I do a minor thing let's say I teach Saji and then tomorrow God convicts me ask him forgiveness God I'm sorry for my sin I have cheated Saji Saji take your pen back I have cheated you that day that says minor sin where I can restitute it is possible to restitute but the case where a man died because of my being a horrible person earlier cannot be restituted and there is a law in the country and have to bear the consequences of that so there is the sin and it is the damage not all damage can be repaired for example if I am alcoholic very heavy drinker all my youth was spent in drinking at the old age are some faithful servant of God comes and I tell me ask God forgiveness I ask her forgiveness in the name of Jesus I receive a free gift of salvation free of charge haven't worked for it God changed my destiny but what happened during all my youth had been drinking beer and my liver developed fibroid and then slowly slowly I wished and died because of that the damage of sin all my life has damaged my life but thank God my soul is saved see ya this is the this is the damage of sin I have done all these years but my soul is saved because I ask forgiveness it's a free gift it's a free gift God take the justice that I deserve out of me and put it on Jesus that is the strange the strange exchange that Jesus takes it from you and put it on himself nobody is willing to can do that yes yes brother this would be the last question for the evening we would request the audience to be seated after the answer for another one or two minutes bear with us for a few minutes mo yes brother my name is Sonny Matthew I am a member consultant name of my company is Sigma manpower and marketing Private Limited well the question to dr. Zakir Naik is or the debate subject what we have today is was Christ really crucified asking a counter question is not the answer for the question it's a simple logical theory the subject of today is not whether Jesus has resurrected or not that subject when you are dealing it on the problem the evidence for the resurrection which we can find out only from the Bible and it is a believe of the Christians and as you mentioned you are not believing in Chris you are not believing bible is aware of god and then you are taking the quotation from bible and proving that and growing that resurrection is not taken place and then saying that is why the crucification is not taking place is a good logic but when we approaching the subject I personally believe it is not right one another point yeah the same question it's a continuation but one more point on that now it is a historical fact the crucification or death of Christ is a historical fact where the historians has written it on that a Jewish historian called Josephus has written about about the about the crucification of Christ and it was not a secret in a rally people has been tortured he might crucified it on that then what happened to Christ if Christ has not died whether he has hidden some arrows ether is body has taken down from the cross and it has been laying doubt there are people witnessing it on that but how can you deny it on this and the last continuation because I am the last person to question the three questions in fact the management has put a limitation let him answer the three questions if time permits and the management's permits we might answer I comment time yeah when you are allowed to ask only a question I don't know ask a comment you can come to the IRF call him to your place whatever you'll agree to do that after the program in the worry I can't allow it now please come please I cannot allow you now maybe have the answers to the questions already pushed the bells opposed full question he said the topic was vast Christ really crucified and opposed the question was it is erected and then he said because he's elected he was not resurrected therefore he's not crucified you are going in the opposite what I was trying to do is kill two birds with one stone do not have another debate was the cry for his elected or not two birds with one stone if he did not die he was not crucified if he did not that he was not resurrected two birds with one stone so even if you remove the word resurrection yet the arguments remain the same and you can have the video cassette later on when it's released first I said if a person have n die he's not crucified and then I went to say that for this direction also death is required so I'm killing two birds with one stone trying to prove that Jesus guy Spielberg one did not die if he did not die he was not crucified if he did not die how can he be resurrected I am killing two birds with one stone but I'm sticking to the topic I'm not going away from the topic because both these things are important according to Paul 1st Corinthians chapter 15 verse 14 that and if Christ did not die and rise of a preaching is vain and your faith is so I'm killing two birds with one stone you can refer to the cassette you asked annex question that historians have said Jewish historian that he has been crucified do you know brother how much of materia has been written on Christ has been really crucified double the materials retained that he was not crucified historical accords we can come to at I can quote venturi when to the German philosophies he said send Paulus I can give you how many names you can give I will give you double the countenance of historians not Muslim Christian non Muslim I give their names the fourth question if Jesus Christ peace be upon him did not die what happened to him was he put below the earth etc I feel it didn't hear my talk and my debauchery and my question obsession I made it very clear incidentally sir chapter 4 was 157 ma ma Petaluma Marcella boo boo they didn't kill him neither did they crucify him it was only made to appear so next was to release a chapter for was 158 it says that Allah subhana WA Ta'ala raised him up a life I've said that that he was raised up alive unto himself Allah subhana WA Ta'ala raised Jesus Christ peace be upon him unto himself it is even mentioned for al Imran chapter number 3 verse number 55 that he was raised up alive and he becoming again in the second coming so all your questions have been answered and the pastor said what I have got from his answer which he gave earlier every time I meet a Christian I can anyone see he said that certain damages cannot be repaired he said that it is on video that means for certain sins Jesus guys cannot be what I get to understand what I get to understand every time I meet a new Christian I get a new ideology of Christianity that for small sins Christ has paid please be upon it or big things we have not paid that's what I understand that's what I understand yes brother your son coming brother just you can just ask your question instead of a comment because one in this five minutes there are yet to three minutes left I will allow him to answer only in the three minutes not to five minutes yes brother quickly a question quickly the answer within three minutes now the or in their argument which you are given based on the biblical coatings and when actually the subject was the Christ s really crucified what you have there to talk from the Quran Quran when you are saying if you are saying a statement and if you are repeating a statement that's not an argument I say there is a God and I say 20 times there is a god that's not an argument or even require subsequent support so what support you can give from Quran for Christ has not crucified other than that of the statement I expect a replay not to get the clap from the audience but for and a non-muslim can understand and getting of a clap is symbol but I'm just making others understanding is difficult so not to get a clap but to make to me understand on that there was asked a very good question that if you make a statement it doesn't become a fact it should be from authentic source and then do agree if I quote from the Quran Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified who did not agree why because the phone do you the Quran is not authentic I have got no problem but for the Muslims it's authentic they say in the world of God for them it is sufficient proof if I say anything from the Bible what happened to Christ it may not be proof for the Muslims but for the Christians it will be do you agree the Bible to be the Word of God or not you agree good he agrees so prove from the Bible Jesus guy was not crucified but why do you require historical proof do the historical proof is superior to God's Word don't clap don't clap leave it as I want to do clap he wants to understand the proof should be I mean it's a matter of faith that's why it was so good that side I'm saying as long as you're convinced I am NOT here to convince the non-christian to convince the non-christian I can leave historico proof we can have a new debate if a non-christian comes and tells me that he who could row I mean either quotation which you're courted is right but it is picked up from a wrong place which was mentioned why Roy incidents rather have that allegation has quoted rightly but out of context you give the fundex no problem it's a friendly discussion for understanding come to IRS you give the context and we discuss it you're most welcome I'll come and meet you then jazakallah khair we thank god almighty for making this evening of understanding each other's viewpoints between two major faiths of this world possible for all of us present here we would like to thank the India gospel mission and the Islamic Research Foundation for getting together to organize this program I would like to personally thank pastor Rockne pastor Sergey dr. Zakir and all of us present here today jazakomallahu khayran may God reward all of you you you

Channel: Dr Zakir Naik

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Keywords: Dr ZakirNaik, Zakir Naik, Zakirnaik, Drzakirnaik, Zakir Naik Urdu, Zakir Naik Bangla, PeaceTv, Peace TV, Peace Tv English, Peace TV Urdu, Peace TV Bangla, Dr.Zakir Naik, Muhanmmad, Allah, Orator on Islam & Comparative Religion, Muslim Brotherhood, Pastor Ruknuddin Pio, Was Christ(pbuh) Really Crucified?, Zakir Naik English, Dr Zakir Naik v/s Pastor Ruknuddin Pio, Debate, An Arab Christian Missionary, Jesus Christ (Deity)

Id: t5TBPBj4Z5k

Length: 196min 16sec (11776 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 19 2014