DEBATE: Did the Muhammad of Islam Exist? (David Wood vs Jay Smith)

[Music] all right welcome everybody to this final debate of the night and the debate is did is did muhammad of islam exist so we're going to have a debate between dr david wood dr j smith it's going to be a pretty much the same format as you've seen before we're going to have opening statements of 20 minutes each then we're going to have 12 minute rebuttals each and then eight minute rebuttals each and then five minutes summary and wrap-up so gentlemen i'm gonna do as i did on the last debate when we hit the 20-minute mark or the 12 whatever the minute mark is i'll let you know that your time is up so we can keep the debate proceeding and moving forward david you can begin well good evening i'd like to thank ministry of muslims for arranging this debate and the church here for hosting i'd also like to thank dr j smith for giving me this opportunity to debunk one of the most astounding pseudo-scholarly conspiracy theories the world has ever seen uh you know when when people hear that david wood is debating jay smith on an islamic topic lots of people think we must we must be up to something but we're not we really have a significant disagreement on whether the muhammad of islam existed i still believe in the overall picture of muhammad that most westerners who study islam believe it he's born around 570 a.d starts receiving revelations around 610 um preaches for 12 years or so in mecca flees to medina um builds an army conquers his enemies dies around 632 that sort of thing so i'm what you might call a muhammad realist jay by contrast is a muhammad mithra on the only thing standing in the way of the mighty j smith who's trying to convince the world that your fake prophet never existed so when you speak of me speak of me fondly now jay is going to present a number of problems for muhammad realism the view that the muhammad of islam actually existed i'm familiar with many of these problems and i acknowledge that there are some problems there are some difficulties we'll be discussing them but we have to watch out for the classic move of the conspiracy theorist the conspiracy theorist says look there are some difficulties with your position therefore you should abandon your position and adopt this far more absurd conspiracy theory no no we don't just because their problems or difficulties with a position doesn't necessarily mean you should abandon the position especially if the alternatives seem far less likely if you're a christian there's probably been times when you've wondered why the all-powerful loving god you believe in allowed this or that to happen why did this child get cancer why did that church get hit by a tornado but you're still a christian why is that well you believe that there are good reasons to build to be a christian that outweigh any difficulties you might face and you believe that the alternatives have more problems and are supported by less evidence so why should we believe uh why should we be muhammad realists in spite of the challenge from muhammad mithras like jay there are many reasons to believe that the muhammad of islam existed hear my opening statement i'll give three first muslim sources report a number of embarrassing facts about muhammad that wouldn't have been invented by conspirators creating a fake prophet for their new religion this point is grounded in what historians call the principle of embarrassment or the criterion of embarrassment the idea here is that when people lie and invent things to support their position they tend to invent things that help their cause not things that hurt their cause when someone admits something that makes his position look bad or foolish he's probably not making it up because he wouldn't invent something that's an embarrassment to his cause so when we examine testimony we can ask ourselves is this the sort of thing someone would make up if it's not the sort of thing someone would make up we have at least some reason to believe that the testimony is accurate applying this principle to the muslim sources if people are going to fabricate stories about muhammad because they're inventing a new religion they're obviously going to fabricate stories that make muhammad look good they're not going to fabricate stories that muhammad make muhammad look stupid or insane or evil or possessed this means that when we open the muslim sources if we find stories that make muhammad look stupid or insane or evil or possessed the best explanation for why we have these stories is that these things really happened and if they really happened then muhammad obviously existed but we have to be careful here because what's embarrassing to muslims today in the west wasn't necessarily embarrassing to muslims nearly 14 centuries ago in arabia muslims in our time are embarrassed by all kinds of things we read in the quran and the syria magazine and the hadith according to muslim sources muhammad had sex with his pre-pubescent nine-year-old chubb bright aisha he had sex with his slave girls he allowed his followers to rape their female captives and to have sex with prostitutes and to beat their wives into submission muhammad ordered muslims to assassinate his critics and to execute apostates and to violently subjugate jews and christians he supported his religion by robbing people he had a man tortured for money muhammad bought own sold and traded black african slaves all of this is embarrassing to muslims in our time which is why muslim leaders usually cover up this information but we have to remember that these facts weren't embarrassing to the muslim community centuries ago in the middle east muslims back then didn't have a problem with child marriage or beating wives into submission or raping female captives or anything else i just mentioned so the principle of embarrassment wouldn't really apply here because if these practices were acceptable to muslims in the early centuries of islam there's no reason that someone couldn't have included them in fictional stories about a prophet he was inventing but we find other stories in the muslim sources that are quite different we find stories that are pretty embarrassing to all people from all times and we find stories that we know were embarrassing even in the early stages of islam because we find early muslims trying to water down the stories or to explain them away or to erase them from history let me give you ten examples of things that no one would invent about a prophet he's trying to convince people to believe in one we know from muslim sources that when muhammad began receiving revelations his first impression of his revelations was that they were demonic when muhammad fled the cave of hera he was convinced that the first five verses of sir al-alaq had been put into his head by a poetry demon what changed his mind his wife and her cousin who weren't there and had no idea what he encountered had to persuade him that he wasn't possessed he was a prophet of the great god allah is this the sort of story that middle eastern rulers would invent to make their new religion more appealing somehow i don't think it is two we know that after muhammad's experience in the cave he became suicidal and tried to hurl himself off a cliff later when he stopped receiving revelations he again became suicidal and tried repeatedly to hurl himself off a cliff now if you are manufacturing a prophet to unite a bunch of middle eastern tribes do you think you'd portray him as someone who runs to a cliff to hurl himself off whenever something doesn't go his way i certainly wouldn't three according to our earliest muslim sources muhammad delivered revelations from the devil these are the infamous satanic verses when muhammad delivered the original version of surah 53 to his followers it said that in addition to allah there are three goddesses that muslims can pray to allah al-usa and manat muhammad delivered these verses to his followers he bowed down in honor of them and his followers bowed down with him but a little later the prophet of islam came back and said that these verses which he had delivered as part of the quran weren't really from god they were from satan and he replaced them with the words that we find in the quran today now if you wanted to invent a prophet would you portray him as a man who couldn't tell the difference between a revelation from god and a revelation from satan of course not four we know from multiple references in sahih bukhari and other sources that muhammad was the victim of a magic spell that gave him delusional thoughts and false beliefs according to the story one of the muhammad's enemies stole his hairbrush and used it to cast a spell on him spell lasted somewhere between six months and two years now tell me if you were inventing a prophet to suit your fancy would you say that his enemies could temporarily overpower him with black magic not a chance 5 surah 4 verse 3 of the quran says that muslims can marry up to four women but the muslim sources tell us that muhammad had a lot more than four wives tabari says that muhammad consummated marriages with 13 women we know from references in bukhari that muhammad had at least nine wives at one time so why did muhammad get more well he received another revelation surah 3350 which gave him and him only special moral privileges namely lots of extra wives needless to say if i were inventing a prophet i wouldn't invent stories that show him violating his own revelations six muhammad once had an adopted son named zayd who was called zayd bin muhammad zaid son of muhammad one day muhammad saw zayd's wife practically naked and began lusting after her when zayd found out that his adopted father and prophet was lusting after his wife he divorced her so that his adopted father slash prophet could have her then muhammad married the divorced wife of his own adopted son after causing the divorce by lusting after her allah himself had a difficult time justifying this marriage so we can only wonder why someone would invent the story seven according to muslim sources muhammad had a pretty disturbing problem he was frequently covered in semen his child bride aisha reports in numerous hadiths that she would try to scrape it off or wash it off before he headed to the mosque but even after she thought she had gotten it all off she would suddenly see more for the life of me i can't imagine anyone inventing a religion and then making up stories about the new prophet being covered in semen eight according to muslim sources muhammad would suck on the tongues and lips of little boys and have the little boys suck on his tongue he also guaranteed that if he sucked on a little boy's tongue or lips that little boy's tongue or lips would never be tormented by hellfire now if you were inventing a prophet to be the center of your new religion how many stories about your prophet sucking on little boy's tongues and lips to protect them from hellfire would you include cancer is zero and yet islam has a bunch nine muhammad made prophecies that were already falsified by the time he was supposedly being invented by conspirators in sahih bukhari muhammad prophesied that one of the signs of the end times would be that the buttocks of the women who worshipped the idol duel khalasa would shake while walking around the shrine but the idol and the shrine were soon destroyed by muslims so the prophecy can no longer be fulfilled muhammad once pointed to a boy and said that before the boy became an old man the judgment would come that boy has been dead a long time so the prophecy failed now if muhammad was being invented long after his supposed death why would the conspirators invent prophecies which had already been falsified and which therefore exposed their new prophet as a false prophet ten according to the quran allah rescued jesus from those who wanted to kill him so obviously if we're inventing a prophet for islam we're going to invent a similarly miraculous story for our new prophet right but how did muhammad die in the muslim sources he was poisoned by a jewish woman whose family had been slaughtered by muslims the poison ate away at muhammad's internal organs but it took him about three years to finally die in total agony if middle eastern rulers were fabricating their new prophet why would they make up a story about their prophet being outwitted by a jewish woman and then dying like a sick dog why do we have an endless array of stories in islam's most trusted sources that make muhammad sound stupid and insane and evil and possessed if you were inventing a religion would you make the central figure of your new religion sound stupid and insane and evil and possessed there's only one way these stories could have gained momentum in the early muslim community they were true and if they were true then muhammad existed second if conspirators were fabricating a new prophet for their new religion long after muhammad supposedly died they could have invented any number of stories about his rise to power and conquest of arabia they could have said that muhammad appeared in mecca with great signs and wonders and angels and convinced the population that he's a prophet and then went from town to town and everyone converting they could have said whatever they wanted but when we piece together the earliest and most reliable information about muhammad we find a man who couldn't perform miracles a man who was ridiculed for plagiarizing his revelations a man who was viewed by the vast majority of people as a or a madman how would a man like that rise to power and conquer arabia easy deception manipulation bribery and violence that's exactly how muhammad rises to power and conquers arabia according to the earliest strata of islamic history before the story started being massively embellished muhammad told the meccans that they should accept him as a prophet because of his amazing poetry and because he's mentioned in the bible they thought his poetry was a joke and they didn't know about the bible so most of them weren't impressed and muhammad didn't win very many followers that way and muhammad went to medina and medina muhammad's message became if you join my religion and fight for me we'll go out we'll kill them in we'll take their stuff we'll take their wives and their daughters as our sex slaves and if you die while fighting for me allah will take you to paradise and give you an eternity of deflowering virgins and that's when men started converting in droves once muhammad became the most powerful force in arabia the pagans had to convert or die jews and christians had to convert or become demise or die and anyone who left islam or made fun of muhammad had to be executed this is the only way an illiterate 7th century arabian caravan robber with muhammad's mental and moral and spiritual problems could have been accepted as god's last and greatest prophet and it's exactly what we find in the muslim sources but again if later rulers were simply inventing the story of muhammad as the foundation of their new religion they could have said anything there was no need at all for a fabricated muhammad to rely on deception manipulation bribery or violence to convince people to believe in him third in 1999 the american psychologist paul vits published a book titled faith of the fatherless it's about the connection between early childhood experiences and later religious belief his research showed that the overwhelming majority of prominent advocates of atheism over the past few centuries either had no father figure when they were young or they had a terrible relationship with a bad father figure the overwhelming majority of prominent advocates of theism by contrast had a close relationship with a father figure they loved and respected when they were children near the end of the book dr vitz responds to a possible objection to his analysis since there have always been bad fathers or missing fathers why is popular atheism such a recent development he replies by suggesting that in the past when atheism wasn't a live option for people the psychology of the defective father would have been expressed differently this brings us back to muhammad whose father died before he was born then he was sent to live with some bedouins in the desert they became convinced that he was demon-possessed sent him back to live with his mother when he was four then his mother died when he was six he was sent to live with his grandfather his grandfather died by the time he was eight so muhammad lost every relationship with a mother figure or father figure that he had by the time he was eight why is this important well according to a lot of research someone with this level of childhood loss and trauma will express this loss and trauma as an adult in three main ways one he'll have a tendency to rebel against authority and tradition two he'll have trouble forming stable healthy relationships with other people and three he'll have a problem with father figures and especially with viewing god as a heavenly father if you've studied the life of muhammad you know that muhammad exhibited all of these features in extreme fashion muhammad is the extreme example of someone who exhibits these features muhammad doesn't just rebel against authority and tradition he turns against his own people against his own tribe against his own city violently subjugates them smashes their idols in front of them mama doesn't just have trouble forming stable healthy relationships all of his relationships were massively twisted moment's first marriage was to a woman named khadija who's 15 years older than him the same age as mother would have been if she hadn't died muhammad would run to her when he was scared even though he was a grown man he had his best friend hand over his prepubescent daughter for marriage he took the wife of his own adopted son he married a woman after torturing and killing her husband these are not normal relationships and finally muhammad doesn't just have a problem with father figures he abolishes adoption in islam there's no more adoption in islam muhammad abolished it and unadopted his adopted son and no one in history had a bigger problem with viewing god as a heavenly father than muhammad the quran says that the highest relationship anyone can have with allah is a slave to master relationship and that the heavens and earth are on the verge of being torn apart whenever someone says that allah is a father this leads to an obvious question how much did jay's merry band of conspirators know about psychology if you guessed absolutely nothing you're absolutely correct and yet we want to accept jay's conspiracy theory we have to believe that they were the greatest masters of psychology ever because they wrote a fictional account of muhammad's childhood that lines up perfectly with his psychological profile as an adult more problems to come [Applause] thank you david all right jay as soon as you're ready you'll have your 20-minute response uh 20-minute opening statement well i wish i could go right into the rebuttal but we're going to have to do this first so let's go right into it and let's um let's show you what and who this muhammad is of the 7th century versus the muhammad of the 9th and 10th centuries now david has given a very convincing view of this muhammad of the 9th and 10th century what he didn't want to talk to you about is this timeline take a look at the timeline you'll see the problem everything that he referred to all those stories that he talked about the 10 different problems do not take place or not written down are not at all uh you might say even uh put to any historical evidence that we can see at the time even the century that he lived take a look and see where the names are and there there's the story of muhammad born 570. he went through that and now let's see where all that takes place take a look at this slide here the material that he talks about everything that he's dependent on for his paradigm does not come until ibn hasham you notice i have an ibn isak up there but i've got to put him in a very shadowed form the reason why is i don't think any of the thing i mean the material that we use today on muhammad comes with we don't know anything about ibn is only attributed to ibn isak everything we know comes from ibn asham look at his dates he doesn't even begin to appear until the 9th century muhammad died in 632 i'm getting an echo here is that is that important or not can you still hear me all right okay so here you have ibn ishaam 833 is when he first that first biography of muhammad is written down that's 200 years after the fact albuquerque comes after that when is the first traditions on concerning his speech that doesn't come until al buhari look at the dates 870 sahib muslim tiramidi ibn maja even dawood and nisa that's all up until 9 15 going into the 10th century and we have nothing about the tafsir until 9 23 so we're looking at two to three hundred years later this is all written down regardless of whether it's disturbing or embarrassing we'll get to that in the rebuttal just look at the timeline and notice where all these writers are from they're all from those red dots but everything that he has been talking about take place in the green dots you notice that can you see the north south problem here everything about this muhammad from the 9th century is supposedly taking place in mecca medina in the hijaz the central part of arabia all the writing about him everything that's written about him takes place in cairo baghdad tabathan basra and bukhara hundreds of miles away and hundreds of years different therefore none of the traditional writers lived or worked in macro medina they were too far to the north of mecca and came from the west and east of baghdad you can look at the you can look the kilometers i won't get into that by the way all of these slides if you want them i can give them to you not for those of you who are watching those of you who are here who bought tickets okay you can have all my slides so you can show these to your muslim friend this problem of northern hegemony is not at all understood well remember you have look at the bottom you can see where even hisham is ibn sham died 833 notice that he is again 200 years after the fact look how far away all of his materials all of these northern areas are where the abbas originated from i'm going to come back to this little later you need to understand that almost everything we know about muhammad comes from the abbasid not from the umayyad area have you heard this before this is probably new to you furthermore all of it was written in the 9th and 10th century they all wrote their material hundreds of miles too far away and hundreds of years too late we get to the quran and i want to just look and say quick about this i'm not going to talk much about this because we're going to get into that tomorrow but when you look at the quran you have five different canonizations of the quran only one of them is from the hijas and it's the one we don't know anything about and that's the canonization of uthman asar who is a harvard professor has written his book he just came out last week with the second canonization uh by ibn mujhey all of the recitations you might say all of the kira that we've been that we've been going through this last year since june 8th since that infamous uh interview that they had on youtube take a look at all the canonizations ibn jade is the one that puts together the first seven readings look and see where he is uh look and see his dates 9 36 that's 10th century al-shatabhi is the one that puts together the next 14 students these are the riot those all are introduced in 1194. that's the 12th century al-jazari is the one that brings in the next nine so you get seven plus fourteen that's twenty one plus nine equals thirty the thirty rights and the readers all are finally introduced in 1429 that is fifteenth century and take a look and see how many years that is after muhammad that's 800 years after muhammad we get the 30 qurans and finally they had to put it back to one in 1924 and 1924 quran but i want you to look at this map here i'm sorry not this map this timeline here of all those 30 reywats and the readers there they all listed up there the three the green ones are the seven the red are the three and the purple are all the the wyatts which would be the students that come from every one of them introduced by ibn munjahid al-shathabi and al-jazadi they all are introduced 800 years but take a look and see where they're look where they all are introduced three of them come from mecca five from get outs that means only eight of them of the thirty come from the hijabs that he's talking about the area that this is all supposed to be taking place when you look at the others one comes from cairo three come from damascus six come from basra and 12 come from kufa and the the quran that we have in our hand today it is from kufa it is not from the southern part it is all in the north look at the red dots here is the north south divide again let's look at the quranic arabic even the quranic arabic the arabic that we have in the quran is not from that green area the green area is what he's talking about that's the ninth and tenth century muhammad all right if this guy received the quran in that area then the quran that's in our hand today is not that quran because that quran has the tarmar buddha in it the quran that we have in our hand today has the allah in it has the aleph in it has also the iraq these are what we know as unstressed inflectional short final vowels none of this exists in any arabic that existed in the 7th century in that part of the world so what are you talking about david where is this quran that you're talking about or this man that received it that far south if he had come come from a man named muhammad who lived in the seventh century in that part of arabia he would have had sabaic arabic sebac arabic ironically speaking the sabbatic arabic that actually was introduced in yemen does have the five dots and has the three vowels the very thing the quran needed and if they had he had written it in that arabic we would have not had any kidnaps i hope you're getting this folks and i hope those who are watching are getting this now what about this muhammad who received letters and this is something the muslims love they come to me all the time what about this lever let's look at this letter right here this is the ashtanami if you look at this letter this letter has nothing to do with muhammad we now know it's fraudulent it is dated supported to 625 there are 47 writings listed in saad's account in 845 he doesn't they named the astronomy once look at the minaret on the right side the minarets were only introduced in the 9th century not used until the 11th century look at the name sultan is referred to but there was no reference to sultan that early that was only introduced 350 years later in 998. mosques were mentioned yet there was no mosque in egypt until 641. and as far as the makura the angel proximity that is a sufi writing that was introduced in the 10th century about 340 years later what's more when you look at that you will see it is actually a writing from the 16th century the earliest and the early journal we have is from the 16th century which makes sense because that's the right time to have written a letter like that wrong man wrong place wrong letter the constitution of medina that muslims always like to say proved that muhammad had existed first of all take a look and read the constitution medina and tell me what jew would have assigned that constitution media no jew would have though it's pro-jewish there is no jewish records of it there's no archaeological evidence of any jews living that far south not that early not in the 7th century and so you can see where and when did this really get put together we don't know of any reference of this until ibn hasham writes it in 833 so the first reference we have of this is three 200 years after the fact therefore the historians people like hoyland and andrews consider it a fraud because there was no jews that far south and the only source for it comes to the ninth century muslim traditions again much much too late the dog treated iakobi probably one of the most famous documents this is the one that muslims are always throwing at me and david i don't know if you realize this one but when you look at this you can see this first of all doesn't talk about muhammad it talks about a sarasan prophet who comes with a sword and has the keys of paradise does that sound like muhammad to you any of you when you look and see what it says you can see that according to this doctrine this um uh jacobi which was supposedly written around 634 sows and assumes that he's still alive in 634 that controverts the traditions that he has the keys to paradise no this prophet fits more a judeo-christian monotheistic background he has the keys to paradise is also referring to matthew chapter 16. what's interesting because it's written in arabic aramaic not in arabic what in the world would this be referring to a guy who doesn't speak any arabic i don't remember muhammad ever speaking arabic conclusion there is no reference to the name muhammad on this document no reference to this prophet being a muslim nor belong to the religion islam or any reference to the city of mecca nor of his book the quran he could be almost anybody of islam according to what david's telling me that would have been controlled by the time of that's i understand it i would agree muuwiya is historical and so therefore from tripoli all the way over to afghanistan that would have been under its control which is an enormous amount of land so therefore somewhere amongst all that area that's the brown and the orange there should be some reference to muhammad somewhere right one reference to muhammad and i will be satisfied by the time of 680 we're talking about 50 years after muhammad where is david able to show me one reference to this man named muhammad that he's talking about in that area that swath of land from afghanistan to tripoli let's start with the quran well okay let's look at the quran four references to muhammad in the quran chapter 3 verse 144 and chapter 33 verse 40 in chapter 47 verse 2 in chapter 48 verse 29 take a look and see what the muhammad is the muhammad there we the name muhammad means the blessed one if you look and you understand that murad who is a scholar in both arabic he's on our team he's the one that's working for us from the middle east he has been saying he's watching right now he has been saying look at the look at the arabic there it's from nabataean aramaic did i not say that earlier that this is in nabatae in aramaic arabic and when you look at that it just talks about the blessed one is no more than a messenger in every case when you look at those four references this could be abdullah himself referring to himself not to a man named muhammad let's take a look at the dome of the rock because that was also constructed by abdel malik look at the inscriptions the only original part of the buildings there is reference i don't have time to go into but almost every time when you look at the shahada there you can see that this is referring to a messianic figure and it's more likely or not it is confronting the byzantine christianity that is there in jerusalem that's why it's built there that's why it's built looking up and down onto this uh the church of the supplier it's a one-upmanship by abdomenic who's way up in damascus i don't have time to unpack that but what i really want to go to are probably the most substantial authority that we're looking at today and that is the coins let's look at the coins because the coins that are coming out and this is all stuff that has come out this year in 2020 look at that swath of land and look and see what they now controlled anytime you have a new emperor if you are a new caleb like abu bakr umar or uthman or ali the first thing any caliph or any king or any leader does is to mint coins and they put their image on the coins and they put their name on the coins and they explain who they are and they always say what the religion is and they always say we're the mintes look at the coins this is evidence from the seventh century now look and see where they're minted they're minted in two areas one in syria the other in iran none of them are in the hijas too far north again are you am i getting kind of boring saying the thing over the same thing over again everything we see happening in the 7th century comes from the north not from the south not from mecca not from medina when you look at the coins you can follow a sequence on the coins this would take me an hour to go through all the sequence what we do know start on the left those are arab coins it's not that they weren't minting coins they were minting coins look what's on the coins these leaders these arab leaders had crosses in their hands they had crosses above their heads why would you be wearing a cross if you're a muslim no reference to muhammad or any of these no reference to abu bakr umar uthman or ali when you get to maui finally in 661 he would be the first killer from the umai caliphate take a look at his coins in the west the coins in the west are gold soliduses and they're copper coins he himself has a cough a cross on his head and he's holding a cross in his hand he's a muslim no reference to any people called muslims no reference to any religion called islam no reference to any man named muhammad no reference to any book called the quran and no reference to any city called mecca it is just blank on all these coins now the coins are great because they are from the 7th century they do not disintegrate they do not deteriorate we can look at them today and we have not been looking at them until this year or i could go a whole time on coins because if you want to see what is the first muslim coin you've got to start with 692. that golden coin you see there that's abdul malik he is the first one to introduce muhammad he is the first one to introduce and then he puts his own image on the coin in 693 because justinian second goes to war with him because he dares to do something that's different than the byzantines want proving that the influence is coming from christianity in the west but look what's on the backside of all the coins coming out of iran look at maui's coin all the way up from 661 up to 680. on the backside of the silver coins in the east are zoroastrian fire altars nothing to do with muhammad take a look and you'll see who is the man we're looking at now i'm just going to introduce him today and i don't have the time because i say i only have five minutes i've really got to zip through this because i'm only halfway through my slides this is the muhammad of the 7th century he comes from hira he comes from the luck he's a loch nick king he was a king he was not poor when you look and see what we know about him we now know that he was there in 618 he was the one that joined with the arabs when heracles came and destroyed the sassanians 6 22 this happens that's why the year 622 is so important and he is the one that is credited with that with them helping with the relationship i don't have time to go and tell you about yes that's for another time but we're now looking at him we're finding that this is the muhammad of the seventh century he's nothing like the muhammad of the ninth century a completely different man he is a christian to begin with he was a christian muhammad his name is ias ibn kabisa his nickname was muhammad and that was his name daguerre now hold on to that i don't have time to go into this we'll come back to him i've already said we can't find anything about the rightly guided caliphs but now let's look at the rock inscriptions the rock inscriptions are almost as good as the coins we have found 30 000 rock inscriptions and here's what's interesting when you look at the rocket scriptions you will see that none of them prior before we get on to that take a look and see where the rock inscriptions are they're all up there in the north they should be down in the bottom part where the sabaic script is all of these not robin rock inscriptions from the 7th century up until 690 are all using aramaic which is from petra petra have i said that one before and when you look and unpack those in our conscription oh you've got to give me more minutes than that liquor instead hundred-dated rock and scripture everything we see before 690 none of it referring to anything that we that we need to be looking there's nothing there about muhammad on any of these rock inscriptions they're still for there for us today and then we get to the inscription of 741 the apocalypse of pseudo methodius quintana quintanillato byzantia arabica that's a mouthful remember when patricia korra looked at this and said this is the first reference we have for mecca we don't have any other reference for mecca what she didn't read is the rest of the inscription because the rest of the description explains who and where this place was and it places it way up in southern turkey the first mecca is way up in southern turkey i don't have time to get into that wait till you see when we come back i want i don't want to get into to petra petra is amazing this will take me another hour and i just want you to look at this look at this map here notice everything we know about petra from jordan take a look and see notice where all the trade routes are not one of them goes south they're all going east and west and north why is it that nothing is going south if that's where muhammad was if that's where islam began if that's where civilization began for the muslims i don't want to get into this reference here let's just go and look at this conclusions notice all the manuscripts six to nine of the earliest manuscripts this is not the kiddos we're talking about the earliest management that's the top copy of the summit on the all of these great six major manuscripts that we've been talking about for years now since 2014 look and see where they come from they come up from those cities up in the north not from the south the kira's 22 of the 30 skidats come from the north not from the south the huff's quran that we use today comes to the north not from the south the quranic arabic that we look at you today comes to the north not from the south the qiblas until 727 all the qiblas up until 727 we don't have any qiblas from mecca or from the south at all they are all from the north look at all the muhammad himself he comes from the north not from the south the iraq inscriptions all of them come from the north not from the south the year 622 comes to the north not from the south the first mecca comes from the north i see that you don't have to keep it up there and then the conclusions here we go i'm going to do it all one minute the sources for everything we know about traditional islam that david would like to support come too late and too far away except for the first canonization which is impossible to find the other four cannons are too far north the quranic arabic again is too far north the astronomy letter is again too late the constitution made dana much too late the doctrine jacobi is again the wrong time muhammad is not in the quran nor is he on the script in the dome of the rock the coins all support a 7th century archaeological and documentary evidence and simultaneously confront the traditional 9th to 10th century a narrative that david would like to push forward ias kibisa is the man i think we're looking for he is and i'm going to introduce him as the 7th century mohammed i would love you to tell you the story about why he is so great we can't find any of the four rightly guided caliphs in the 7th century the rock inscriptions say nothing about muhammad or mecca or islam or the quran or the muslims until after 6 90 they only begin to start showing a religion that as we know it from 7 20 to 7 30 we're going to talk about the for 741 inscription of the first mecca that is in southern turkey much too far north and everything we know about petra the initial sanctuary of the arabs which was later replaced by the current mecca therefore the conclusion the historical record suggests that most everything we now know of islam in the 7th century is either too far north or too far away or much too late to be the islam of the 9th century islamic traditions islam is really an abbasid creation [Applause] thank you dr smith we are now going to go that concludes our opening statements we're going to go to our first phase of rebuttal which are each participant is going to have 12 minutes don't you just love conspiracy theorists they always make it sound good don't they you could sit there and listen to a you know a 911 truther or a moon landing hoaxer uh all day long they could speak to you for 40 hours on their awesome awesome awesome understanding of the details there they love to point out problems with the position they're tearing down so they can get other people to buy into their conspiracy theory but they don't bother to tell you about the holes in the narrative now jay offered a number of problems for muhammad realism and i find that part of the problem here is that we just have wildly different expectations for what to expect from the evidence that we're examining uh in the early history of islam so he says we don't have any early sources where are all the sources where are all the first century of islam sources that talk about all of this stuff well i think jay already alluded to the solution there he mentioned that there there was a writing of ibn asak but we don't even have that right so our earliest biography is more than a century after the time of muhammad we don't have that we have a later ascension a watered-down version from ibn hashem why does ibn hashem say that he uh did some editing and deleting he said there was too much embarrassing material from that first entry right i mean not not from from the ibn assak version well what what's ibn assak doing supposedly ibn assak is supposedly going to earlier earlier authorities and giving the information they presented about muhammad well if this information is embarrassing already by the time you get to ibn hashem what do you think they're gonna what do you think they're gonna be doing with any early evidence that they might have keep in mind this is a group that is famous for burning books that they don't agree with right we know that already right hey these these qurans don't agree with each other burn them all what do you think they're going to do once they start finding out that there's all this embarrassing information about muhammad but there's there's another problem that we we actually know of historically by the time you get to the rise of the hadith scholars so people like bukhari and muslim these guys very rapidly convince the muslim community that they were the only reliable they had the only reliable way of doing history the islamic way and so before that you had the seerah magazines right they're writing biographical stories about muhammad they're writing stories of muhammad's war campaigns the hadith guys come along and they say you can't do it that way you have to do it our way so anything anything from early islam did not meet the criteria of these later guys and so do you guys know how books work back then before the printing press if you wanted a book to last you needed people copying that thing by hand so for instance we have we have about a fifth of the works of aristotle about a fifth and he had a community that was passing on his knowledge and most of it didn't last you need a very very dedicated group of people passing on your knowledge if you want it to last so the point here is when i look back there and i say oh my goodness there are no sources from the first century of islam oh you mean by two centuries after that time they viewed that material as very unreliable and using an unislamic method and therefore no one's copying it and therefore we don't have it shocker that's my view so in other words i'm not surprised by that it seems to fit together with what we know but let me give you let me give you an example of why i think there was reliable information coming out of the first century let's take the example of the satanic verses which i mentioned earlier i mentioned the satanic verses when muhammad received revelations from the devil delivered them and then came back and said the devil the devil made me do it tricked me i have 50 muslim sources on the satanic verses 50. those stories they come with little little his nods and so on that tell you where those actually came from a bunch of those go back to some supposed first century witness right so some of them go back to they've been abbas some of them go back to students of ibn abbas but not from ibn abbas himself and so notice you have 50 sources on the satanic verses going back to lots of different people in the first century of islam now jay just looks but i don't have the actual text i don't have the actual book well okay what's the alternative here right well so you don't have the book therefore the story doesn't go back there well what's the problem if you say the story doesn't go back there and this is what i mean by when someone gives you a conspiracy theory alternative you need to investigate that and say does this really make sense so one as i pointed out the satanic versus story was massively embarrassing how do we know because we can trace the stories of when they came and they keep watering it down more and more at first it's muhammad who receives the revelations and delivered them then at a later stage it was no satan imitated muhammad's voice so that people thought muhammad said it but he actually didn't and then later on they water it down even more to where you don't even know why the pagans are bowing down in honor of this surah they completely get to the point where they completely delete the story and so they're clearly embarrassed by you they're clearly embarrassed by this story but think about this if we want to say it didn't happen because we don't have the actual text didn't happen but what you have to say then is one someone invented this story so in the century after muhammad apparently someone invents the story of muhammad the new prophet they're telling everyone to believe in invent this story and not only are we going to invent the story we're going to invent dozens of sources for it that go back to this previous century so keep in mind what the conspiracy here is right you're not just inventing muhammad the prophet you're inventing the entire ensemble cast right inventing all the wives all his followers all those are invented according to this theory and not only are you inventing them you're inventing their children their grandchildren all the way down to the people that jay is going to be talking about when we actually get people that that jay would agree existed so all of that entire history is invented so they don't just invent the story of the satanic verses or something they start inventing dozens of narrations that go back to all these people who did not exist again if this was all a conspiracy this is the most brilliant conspiracy theory i've ever seen right because this is what people would be looking for so they would have known it back then hey don't just say muhammad delivered revelations from the devil invent dozens of sources saying it so that people will really know our prophet couldn't tell the difference between the revelation from god and revelation from satan this is just too much your conspiracy is doing too much work here right now um jay pointed out you know the quran had come from muhammad it would have been different it would be different from the quran that we uh that we have now uh look there's no disputing between us that the quran is one big giant mess and that the history of the quran is one big giant mess right but that's consistent with muhammad actually receiving revelations delivering them to his followers and then a big mess happening afterwards which would be my picture so i don't think um that really supports either case uh he says the letters don't work no dispute there didn't use them constitutional medina didn't work uh no dispute didn't use it um doctrine yeah kobe doesn't work no problem not disputing that um he says that existed but where are the references to muhammad here again we come to an issue where i think we're expecting massively different uh details to come out from this first century of islam if you read the muslim sources if islam had been like one percent more violent the community would have wiped itself out they started slaughtering each other almost immediately aisha the mother of the faithful marched an army against ali the commander of the faithful people who were companions of muhammad at the battle of bader and uhud and so on were slaughtering each other over a disagreement and that just kept happening and happening and happening if you look at what happens until you start getting uh political power massively consolidated these guys are spending all their time slaughtering each other and then going out and slaughtering other people they're not building monuments they're not doing that eventually they get to a place of stability and that's when you start getting the monuments so again i don't know what you'd expect to be looking for i don't i don't know what you what you think these people in a desert slaughtering each other are going to be producing as far as you know inscriptions and so on um jay points out that the evidence tends to come from the north not from mecca again that wouldn't be surprising as islam expanded that's where you start getting to areas where there's more civilization there's encounters with the byzantines and so on so that's where you'd expect a lot more of this to come from uh he says coins and crosses um coins with muslims and crosses yeah that wouldn't fit out that wouldn't fit well together with islam today but i think people massively overestimate how orthodox islam was back then if you look you have all of these different groups all vying for power and they're all killing each other and they're all expanding into various areas of there's there's there's just doesn't seem to be enough time to sit down and develop really orthodox theology and that's why all these different groups all these different sects of islam spring up and start slaughtering each other so um it wouldn't surprise me that people who are encountering the byzantines and see byzantine crosses and don't really have much of an understanding of why that would be such a problem in islam wouldn't have a problem with that sort of thing now keep in mind i said in my opening statement there are problems right you can you can look at that and say i don't know that's not i still don't get it why why would they have a you know a cross you can say well you know they're they're trying to interact with other people and so they don't have a problem with across them you could say that you could say well maybe that's a stretch well i agree there there are tons of things we have to look at new i don't know doesn't seem like it makes a whole lot of sense there it's the alternative that i have a problem with right if you say hey i don't get why that guy would have a cross and you move from there to aha it was a christian original and he later became muhammad there's a massive conspiracy then i got a problem right because the solution to the problem seems massively more absurd than anything you're trying to explain um jay says that mecca i mean that petra was the original mecca here again you know what's the evidence for this you have some no notice here because this is a good example so some mosques old mosques face petra apparently not mecca now jay is familiar with the work of dr david king who has been for decades the world's leading authority on qiblas and he argued before anyone ever heard of dan gibson that the early moths were facing unexpected directions but he came up with explanations for that sort of thing right he said that these are they were focused on astronomical alignments and so on rather than just what we think of facing pointing your mosque in the direction of mecca so he points that out now jay will obviously say he's been refuted dan gibson is right the world's leading authority on these kibbles is doesn't know what he's talking about but here's the point you've got a scholar who says one thing you've got dan gibson who goes out and he says something else if you want to say hey there's a problem here fine say there's a problem and then go through possible solutions maybe the early muslim community pointed those there for some reason we don't know why once you start saying no that was the original mecca and that was the original this that was original that and all everything is a conspiracy here you've gone vastly beyond you've gone vastly beyond any problems in what you're trying to explain so um again because this always happens right oh you know look at the moon landing that flag doesn't look like it would in space well therefore nasa hoax right no you you got to take these problems take a close look and we're going to do that a little bit more as this debate goes on thank you [Applause] and dr smith you'll have your 12 minutes as soon as you're ready to begin well david i'm a little disappointed you went back to principle of embarrassment you did the same thing you did eight years ago in fact i already had every one of your points on my paper this is from the debate you had with robert spencer in 2012 you haven't changed in eight years i just sat there and said oh he said there's demon possession use of black magic suicide nine to 15 wives poisoned by jewish zion of inside you just went right down the paper you've got to move with the times you saw what robert did he destroyed you in 2012 with those 12 points do you want me to remind you or do you want to sit through it again take a look at what he said in fact i'm just going to jump it together remember what he said about demon possession remember what he said about you as a black magic remember what he said about the suicide in every case muhammad survived and actually went above it this is exactly what you do whenever you have a prophet he always is confronted with a problem and he survives the problem and is victorious so he survived the demon possession he survived the black magic he survived the casting of spells he survived and came out victorious against the suicide why didn't you do the whole story that is typical of any time you're trying to aggrandize your prophet what about the 9 to fifteen wise well you may not want nine to fifteen wives but most there are men's men in the seventh and ninth sorry the ninth century let's look at the seventh century in the ninth century that would show that he's virile and that's why it's important that any part anybody who is a leader of man because of the responsibilities of that leader and muslims have said this many times and i understand it they had to show alliances through these wives more than that more than that what about being poisoned by a jewish remember that's typical demonization of the jews you will see that right through the traditions in the quran there's nothing new about demonizing the jews zionist zeit and this is a good one this one you have to unpack it a little bit more and robert spencer does a really good job of showing that this whole this whole story had to do with the eradication of adoption muhammad could not have any son because he is the last the seal of the prophet therefore you have to eradicate that adoption and that's why surah 33 is introduced so that he could shut down that idea that there was anybody that comes after him because he must be the last the seal of the prophet it also simultaneously attacks jesus's adoption that's the son of god so you can see it's a double whammy that would make sense in the ninth century not in the seventh century the satanic verses and here i'm going to end this one is probably the best one because remember what i said up until 7 49 when the abbasids come to power in 749 everything was umayyad what is it that the abbasids hated they hated the umayyads the umayyads were nabataean they were arab the abbasids are persian they're sassanian they were destroyed by the arabs remember that and that's why the arabs where did the arabs and where did all the umayyads have their headquarters in damascus way up north where did the sassanians have their headquarters in baghdad which was called stesapan at that time when they finally came to power that now explains why all the mosques are facing petra because the umayyad the nabataean sanctuary was always petra that's why all the mosques were facing petra you talk about king i can't believe i think you were doing that tongue-in-cheek because i hope you don't think the king dr king here's a man that's the world authority on mosques and qiblas the direction of every mosque and only went 2-1 in his entire career dan gibson in a period of 25 years went to over a hundred physically went to these mosques and he not only physically went he looked upon where every one of the qiblas was and whereas dan king using ninth 10th and 11th century the very material you're using on the qibla remember none of the ninth tenth and eleven understood why the kibbles were in every direction in fact they thought they were in thousands of directions no they weren't dr uh dan gibson found that they were only in four directions and every one of those four directions had to do with the politics that was happening in the 660 with that was happening in 690 with abdul malik i'm sorry 695 to 705 with abdul malik if you follow the qiblas you can follow the political if you follow the politics you can follow the qiblas which is exactly what you're supposed to do as a historian and for heaven's sakes go to the mosque and find out where they're directed if you're the world authority on it shame on dr king he never left his libraries that's why you need to do the same thing david stop looking at 9th and 10th and 11th and try to understand what's happening earlier you need to go back to the 7th century now david have you noticed he did not really go back to the seventh century to do rebut anything i said today did you notice that he just told us the conspiracy conspiracy this is not conspiracy this is historical evidence everything that i've been pointing to and i want to give credit to a group of men who have been doing this for 20 years mel from sneaker's corner murad from the middle east joe i can't tell you where he's from he doesn't want me to tell you where he's from these three guys are amazing and i hope you're all listening because you need to look at what they're doing go to sneakers corner and see what they're coming up with they are way ahead of everybody else because they refuse to trust anymore the 9th and 10th century i've refused to trust the 9th and 10th century it's too far and too far north too late too far north if you want to find out what happened in the 7th century why not go back to the 7th century and look at the art of material that we're getting there look at the coins look at the inscriptions david you didn't deal with the inscriptions you talked about the coins and you kind of snuffed it off as to say well they're not that important no they're very important remember back when anybody came to power what's the first thing you do they didn't have radio they didn't have television they didn't have internet how did they announce themselves they used coins everybody used coins because that was in the hands of everybody and the first thing you did as any leader a new leader is you put your name on the coin those coins exist they were putting their names on it these are not a conspiracy theory we're talking about hard evidence look at the names on those coins look and what they do what next thing they do they also put a denomination of what they're worth and then they put always a religious icon to show what religion they belong to that's why all the coins in the west the gold soldiers were all christians all the ones in the east were all zoroastrian nothing muslim about them what do you do then then you also write you chisel away on all these rocks thousands tens of thousands of these rocket inscriptions david you didn't deal with that i want you to start dating with the seventh century stop all this conspiracy theory stop talking about things you talked about eight years ago and come back into what you're going to refer to today because if you're going to talk about principle of embarrassment then i'm going to put throwback at you why is it that if you're going to use that category why don't you use it on christianity if you want to find out about jesus christ let's use his criteria we must use that which because comes two to three hundred years later that is embarrassing about jesus christ why don't you start with the infancy gospel of thomas look at the infancy gospel of thomas written in the second century there is a jesus that you would love to follow this is a jesus who a he presents as a naughty irresistible child vindictive child who uses his miraculous powers to take revenge on teachers neighbors and other children some of whom he blinds others he cripples and he even kills is that the jesus you want to take because that's the jesus of the traditions the gnostic traditions that come 200 years later now why were they not chosen by iranians in the early church fathers first of all because they're too late and secondly that is not the historical jesus we have from the first century so david if you're gonna use the idea of taking that which is later and more embarrassing for your criteria then i want you to start using the infancy gospel of thomas to now define your jesus thank god that's not my jesus and i would say to the muslims who are listening everything you're dependent upon is based on nothing more than happenstance talk about imposition of this conspiracy theory i want you also to look back and look and see what why you said why is it you want to go to ibn isak the reason why i said that ibn is i put him in a shaded form is because look and see who ibn is he is the first one of the abbasids who's still a carryover from the umayyads who writes the first biography in 765. the umayyads have come to power in 749. so roughly 16 years later he writes the first biography that biography is riddled with umayyad material and there are all kinds of stories about that muhammad because remember that muhammad starts to appear on the inscription the rocket scriptures i'm using hard evidence again this is not supposition this is not conspiracy the rockets christians start to show this muhammad from 720 up into the 730s ibanezak writes that story but that's not the narrative that the abbas abbas is like so 70 years later ibn hisham is commissioned to take what he liked of ibn isak and throw the rest away which means we don't have ibn isak anymore today that's why i put him in shade in him because there is an evolution between ibn isak and divinish and by the time you get ibn ishaam there that story is now the narrative that the abbasids want but they still don't have the sayings the sayings still need to be put together the sayings take another 40 years to be put together and that's not till the late 9th century but those sayings remember al-buhari is given according to the traditions according to the story he's given 600 000 of these sayings and he's to whittle them down and destroy that which did not exist now how would al-buhari know what muhammad said if he's living 240 years later according to david he's a lot more trustworthy because he is living 240 years later he whittles him down and only retains 7 397. that means he throws out 98 of it only retains 2 percent 2 percent every tradition the 9 volumes we have on al-buhari is only 2 of what was there what do you think he threw away he threw away everything the umayyads had that's why i keep on saying islam is an abbasid invention it is a persian invention it is an invention that korea was created and maintained in baghdad and that's why everything that comes before it had to be eradicated yes you talk about the burnings look about the burnings of the crime i mean take a look and see about all these stories they are probably half true there was probably was a burning of qurans but it did not happen in 652 and that's why we can't find any crime from 652. have you noticed we can't find any qurans from the 7th century at all put it all together and you'll see what's going on this is a political machinations between two different groups that hated each other's guts and finally as they might start to reduce power and they start to get weaker and weaker these others who are waiting to see where are they going to put their qiblas they're going to wait to see who is going to win and finally when they finally the abbasids finally come to power in 749 then all the qiblas go towards mecca but what about that mecca that mecca never existed we can't find any reference to that mecca not until the eighth century and in serious thing when you look at the five stages that are there in that mecca those same five stages can be found in petra and they fit exactly what the traditions say later on but not the dimensions that we see in mecca today that's why i say the muhammad you're looking for is nothing more than an abbasid construct but i've got a list here and later on i want to go and show you what exactly we have now found about the muhammad they should have used the muhammad they should have chosen from the 7th century i'll have to do that in the next one because i see i know i'm out of now out of time thank you dr smith we're going to move to our last stage of rebuttals before we go to closing remarks this rebuttal stage will be eight minutes each check check all right in my opening statement i made three points first there's so much embarrassing material in the muslim sources that we just can't can't conclude people were inventing it when they were starting their new religion jay apparently isn't a fan of the principle of embarrassment which is one of the most valuable one of the most valuable principles that we could ever use when examining uh testimony from the past so i pointed out demonic possession suicide attempts the satanic versus black magic hypocrisy taking uh muhammad taking his adopted son's wife mohammed walking around covered in semen uh tongue-sucking false prophecies poisoning jay responded to a couple of those uh second i argued that the only way someone as horrible as muhammad could have become known as god's last and greatest greatest prophet would be through a combination of deception manipulation bribery and violence that's exactly what we have in the muslim sources there's no reason to say any of that if you're just making up a figure and third the stories that we have about muhammad's childhood and islam's earliest sources are exactly what we would expect given his massive rebellion against authority and tradition his problems forming healthy relationships and his hostility against father figures and especially with his hostility against god as a father figure in other words someone got the childhood right to produce uh that sort of expression of this childhood trauma and this isn't coming from david wood you can you can you can go check out paul ditz's book so jay's responses to some of this uh muhammad survived demonic possession and suicide and satanic verses uh and black magic and so on so he made it through this so there's no problem here yet yes there is your guy could be taken out with black magic your guy thought he was demon possessed you have a suicidal guy and jay says well but it's okay because he made it through that are you serious so someone said you know what i want to show that the prophet is really resilient so i'm going to make story about him repeatedly trying to kill himself whenever something goes wrong and i'm going to make a story about a guy getting hair from his hairbrush and giving him all sorts of delusional sexual uh thoughts and so on that that's what the story actually says so that's why they invented this story seriously are you kidding me we want to show that the prophet is resilient and and we invent these stories about him being controlled by black magic and so on very very strange stuff um jay says well nine to nine to 15 wives would just show that muhammad is bureau i agree that wasn't the problem we're not talking about how many women muhammad could have sex with we're talking about muhammad violating his own revelations right you get the command to do four if if you want muhammad to have 9 to 15 or whatever just just make that the rule right you don't need to show muhammad constantly coming up with revelations that allow him to violate his previous revelation so that his wife aisha said my your lord hastens to satisfy your desires which would also be very embarrassing in the muslim sources aisha making fun of muhammad for always getting anything he wants why invent that in as a commentary on muhammad always getting everything he wants doesn't sound like something someone would invent um as far as being poisoned by a jewish woman uh this is uh jay says well no problem this is demonizing jews the the jewish part is not the relevant part there that muhammad was completely outwitted and swallowed poison and was outsmarted and spent three years in total agony until he was dragged around with his feet dangling behind him like weekend at bernie's and aisha aisha said and everything aisha had seen in her life she said she never saw anyone go through more than muhammad did and then he died again like a dog like a sick dog you're inventing your religion and according to jay it's supposed to be this rival to christianity why is jesus in the quran superior to muhammad in any way if they're putting if they're putting this forward as the religion that's meant to respond to the byzantines why not have your guy do something more miraculous than be born of a virgin and perform all the miracles that muhammad performed and then a more miraculous ending you can write anything you want you're making it up as you go along oh yes you're jesus he rose from the dead or even according to islam he was rescued by allah mohammed died like a dog but it's too it's to demonize the jews if you're just gonna say something you can say that about anything right say about any any uh any story like that you can just say even true things you can always say well it was because of this it does it just doesn't fit come on it doesn't these are not if you're making up a religion to unite the arab tribes this is not the sort of stuff you'd be putting in there you're basically giving ammunition to everyone that you're trying to persuade you're giving them ammunition against you um jay says that the story of zade and zainab was meant to shut down adoption so that muhammad wouldn't have a descendant well why'd you write him as having an adopted son then we need to do away with muhammad having an adopted son you just made it up why would you need to do away with it do you see the problem according to jay the reason they're doing these things is to cover up this other thing that they made up it's the same thing with the story of like the satanic verses and so on they keep trying to change and water down the story in order to deal with the embarrassment of the original problem but you guys invented that that's the problem right why would you do that now um we had a lot of other issues in there again why are they inventing prophecies that had already been falsified by the time they're supposedly being invented in other words if you're later a later arab ruler you're looking at it's already been destroyed why are you going to use that as a sign of the end times the people worshiping there they weren't worshiping there anymore why are you inventing false prophecies that could never be fulfilled again was if jay wants to argue that they invented this so that we could later refute it that's fine but if you're invent if you're saying they invented it to be a believable religion you got some problems here um now jay repeatedly says this isn't a conspiracy it's evidence well no jay this is the definition of a conspiracy theory right you you said islam was an abbasid investor you're saying all of this was invented you're saying they they they move the kaaba from one place to another they invented a prophet they convinced the entire generation this is the definition of it's a massive conspiracy think during the time of someone like abdul malik who's supposedly inventing this don't once he starts spreading these stories don't all these people know that none of this happened i mean unless they were brand new don't they know hey what we haven't been serving mohammed what we haven't been facing that direction what where's this new religion coming from so somehow they're all involved in this conspiracy and then they start cranking out tons and tons of sources where they're supposedly getting this information from the previous century and it's all a hoax but there's a problem suppose abdul malik suppose one of the later rulers starts inventing these things well guess what you have multiple groups back then you have the karajits you have the shias you have rival sunni groups they're fighting these groups if you say ha we we've got our place we've got our place in petra now we're going to move it down here we're going to move it down here to this place called mecca we're going to invent this we're going to invent this new guy one i don't know what you guys are fighting about to begin with because now it doesn't make sense i mean were there any she is this this is the party of ali in this disagreement of you know the leadership after muhammad died so were these people around if not you're fighting over something else now when one group comes along and says we just changed our city to here and we just changed this to that why in the name of common sense with these other groups that you're fighting with say you know what we'll adopt the exact same story why would all of your enemies adopt the same story this there's some holes in the narrative jay thank you david [Applause] your eight-minute rebuttal as soon as you're ready dr smith okay how many times did he say invented 24 times did i ever say that they invented it once what did i say david are you listening to me they didn't invent a thing that already existed really remember you already had from 661 up until 7 49 almost hundred years of stories that were being created started many of them by muawiyah continued by abdul malik all the way up through the sufjani period up to the mud when it period and inconcluded in the mumayan these stories had to be sublimated none of them were being invented by the albion says i never said the abbas had invented a thing in fact many of the stories had to be sublimated and changed and that's why when you look and see what exactly what the abbasids have done they have taken what was given them they didn't invent it and they had to quickly change the narratives change the narratives so that it could fit their narrative that's why no one's inventing a thing please get it right you're wasting your time because you haven't yet answered my question what about the 7th century you haven't said a thing about the 7th century tonight have you noticed he spent his entire time talk about and the embarrassing principle the principle of embarrassment that's embarrassing folks if that's all you've got is the principle of embarrassment because you don't like it david because you're looking with your christian eyes and i understand and this is you've made a whole industry of it this has been your home ministry because as you as a christian he is embarrassing of course muhammad's embarrassing those traditions are absolutely embarrassing but you're you're talking as a 21st century christian no you're not actually you're talking as a biblical christian when you compare the muhammad of the 9th century who is very arab yes he is very much from his his environment and you compare him with jesus christ there's no comparison he is full of embarrassment i can understand why you want to hold on to him i can understand why you want to continue with him because your whole ministry has been based on basically destroying that muhammad please continue to do that don't stop david sam don't stop we need that muhammad destroyed because that is the muhammad of almost 2 billion muslims today that's the only muhammad they know that's the muhammad i want nothing to do with he is embarrassing understandably david he is embarrassing but i'm a historian and i have to understand the historical record and the historical record is showing that there is no muhammad at all there was a man named eos ibn kabisa and i just want to show you what we now know between i got the wrong paper see what we now know about ibn kabisa compared to your muhammad we know that yes yes i don't like you sitting there we should just go out it's no fun being told how much time i have i'm used to waffling on without any care for time but let's go ahead ias ibn kabisa on this side he was of no it's on this side he was of noble birth muhammad he was humble to begin with even kabisa let's just call him yes yes was a king with power given to him muhammad was poor and had to gain power over others yes never used violence to attain his position muhammad once in power always use violence to retain it yes was possibly a christian who loved the biblical jesus whereas muhammad of this 9th century was likely a pagan who hated the biblical jesus eos was used by others to bring about peace muhammad was used to do it but he was supposed to do it but turned to violence instead yes is historical with evidence to prove it we knew we know where he was born in hira we knew where he grew up there in kufa we knew that he after 6 22 once he had helped to get the arabs to create their identity he then was deposed and he moved over to petra in the west muhammad no history at all you have not shown me one historical evidence for muhammad in the 7th century david i'm waiting for that in your in your final i hope in your final summation you will give me one short and one piece of evidence prior to 690 that refers to him by name the man who was a muslim living in mecca who received the quran help me hear es however is a model for everyone today and every day your muhammad is not a model for anyone anywhere at any time there's nothing embarrassing at all about eus enormous many things that are embarrassing of muhammad and that's why you and sam have spent a whole career confronting him please continue to do so eas was a competent guide and instructor muhammad was illiterate and used violence to get obedience yes had a death penalty but only for those who broke the law where whereas muhammad he had a death penalty for those who mocked him yes spoke about love muhammad preached hate yes finally conquered israel muhammad never came close to israel yes married a jew a jewish woman and had alliance with the jews muhammad married a jewish and then killed her former husband yes teached focused on israel whereas muhammad focused had nothing to do with israel yes preached about the coming messiah whereas muhammad preached about himself as the last prophet yes said that he had the keys of paradise christian motif muhammad he never even mentioned it didn't even know anything about it now for muslims listening isn't it interesting the muhammad of the 7th century possibly understood by those in the 7th century was lost by the 8th century the muhammad that was created out of all the stories coming out of the 7th and 8th century that was finally became the muhammad of islam that muhammad is absolutely embarrassing and on that both david and i are agreed but that is not the muhammad of the 7th century i want nothing to do with that muhammad because not only is he embarrassing i want the muhammad who who they've lost what happened to es ibn kabisa and why did they give him up and what was it about that eas that the abbasids never retained until david can prove to me and show me that there was this muhammad this muhammad that he keeps on talking about showing us all the rabid things and i think he knows he's getting a great killing on tonight tonight's show because all the muslims are going to be even more infuriated by him though he say he's arguing for them no folks muslims he's not arguing for you because that muhammad you want nothing to do with why don't you come back to the real muhammad who was there in the 7th century take a look and see what he was and what we're missing today because that muhammad fascinating enough was a christian he loved jesus christ he wanted an awful lot to do with jesus christ but somehow everything that he stood for got erased and it got erased because of the not only the abbasid need their narrative that narrative had to destroy him because he was not one of them so i give you the muhammad of the seventh century and i'll leave you with the muhammad of the 9th century [Applause] now gentlemen we move to the final stage you have 5 minutes for your closing statement all right well we have two theories before us first the muhammad of islam existed i argued that i can't imagine anyone inventing the stories about this guy that muslims have attributed to their prophet if you were inventing stories and saying hey i want the world to believe in this this is the prophet that's going to unite us again the demonic possession and suicide attempts and so on they made him the most obvious false prophet in all of history they made him the most obvious false prophet in history they literally made stories about which showed him to be a false prophet by the time they're they're writing these things down can't imagine that and i pointed out that that history uh the history we have of muhammad according to muslim sources that lines up with that is the only way a guy like that could have risen to power and the childhood again that someone with those childhood experiences who loses every close relationship for the first eight years of his life we know what that produces and it's exactly it's exactly what we find in the life of muhammad so there's too much coincidence here if this is just pieced together from a bunch of strange sources um i do rely on the principle of embarrassment uh j hat i did want to respond to one thing jay said jay said why don't we use the principle of embarrassment with jesus look at the gnostic stories they have all this weird stuff yeah i already mentioned that in my opinion he said that was not weird to the gnostics i i said there's stuff that's embarrassing to muslims today that wasn't embarrassing to muslims back then if it was embarrassing to people back then yeah i agree you can't use it but we have all of these things that we know we're embarrassing because they immediately start trying to cover them up and water them down you can look at a bunch of different sources for the same event and you can look where these stories supposedly originate on the timeline when they're being reported and you see a study process of watering them down but one what's the purpose of inventing them and two how can you actually form a timeline that goes all the way back into the seventh century of when these things are supposed to be being revealed and it all fits together perfectly he says give a reference before 690. again we have we have some very different methods i'm looking at that community and what i would expect from them all they do is slaughter each other and slaughter other people and the only text they would have written would have been laughed at by the later hadith scholars who said their method was garbage so i don't know what i don't know what you're expecting it reminds me it's like eusebius said that constantine commissioned the writing of 50 copies of the bible where where are they they've all been covered up it's a conspiracy they're covering up because they changed the bible what are you talking about some people have suggested sinaiticus or vaticanus may have been uh a part of this there's no evidence for it so best case scenario you lost 48 what what happened to those they were all they were all covered up it's a conspiracy what show me one of those constantine bibles or admit that it's been changed come on right um so now now this is very interesting the the second theory is that muhammad the muhammad of islam didn't exist and jay just said i'm not saying they invented it no one's inventing a thing you said in your presentation right before that islam is an abbasid invention and if you don't believe muhammad existed yeah you can piece together some things from other if you want to say actually refer to this person that person but the overall history of muhammad had to be invented if you believe that they were they were moving their their center of worship from petra to mecca and so on if you believe they're imposing this and then if you believe that ibanez ibn is part of a conspiracy to put out this entire history of muhammad he he he can't think that's true there have to be people here putting this together who know this stuff isn't true when you're talking about this happened and that happened in mecca and so on so there has to be a massive massive conspiracy here once again whatever group is doing the conspiring to invent this thing and to move things around why are the other groups that you're a war with going along with it why do they buy into all of the same stories they should be saying you see these guys are liars but they don't they all go along with the same story interesting all right and that's my real problem with jay's conspiracy theory jay's theory requires me to believe that the conspirators who created islam were simultaneously the biggest bunch of morons the world has ever seen because they invented the most obvious false prophet in history and simultaneously the greatest geniuses of all time because they pulled it off in spectacular fashion so where we don't even know until jason comes along and then we know they pulled it off how could they do it and so um yeah i'm going to say conspiracy theory is not the way to go here if there are problems with the islamic narrative of muhammad fine you have to if you say we have to look into this fine but once you start going this massive conspiracy route and moving things around and inventing a new religion let's say you got problems um so i'll just close out to the muslims who are watching because jay mentioned that you've seen me defending the existence of your prophet against the conspiracy theories of jay what else can i say but you're welcome thank you [Applause] and our last closing statement of the night as soon as you're ready dr smith you can begin you're five minutes i thought it was fascinating you notices said if you want to talk about the biblical jesus and you'd want to talk about because the embarrassing stories of jesus they were not embarrassing to the gnostics you pick that up exactly they were not embarrassing to the gnostics who came later just as these embarrassing stories that he goes on and on about were not embarrassing to the ambassadors tit-for-tat what i'm going to do to end off i'm going to do a little poem i've written a poem i did this for hatu and hatu knows what i'm talking about she asked me to come on a few weeks or two on her site and she asked me could you put this into a nutshell what you're talking about so i put it into a kind of a verse you can do this to supercalifragilistic i'm not going to sing it because you don't want to hear me sing so here we go do it to supercalifragilistic we all know well muhammad's name he's been around a while he lived in mecca so we're told his prophethood's on file yet no one saw him face to face nor heard him speak a word and all we know is centuries old and that's downright absurd yesham who wrote his story down lived two centuries too late buhari who wrote what he said lived at a later date there was just nothing written down they borrowed from hearsay and lived in towns way far too north hundreds of miles away so it seems it's all made up by abbasids we're told who sought to purge all previous views and introduce their mold not invent purge they needed an identity different from those before they had no book they had no man they needed something more muhammad was the name they chose and mecca was his town the quran was his special book each word and letter sound yet that which they say came from god was written down by men who lived in iraq far too north not even from his ken the final version they called hafs was not one of the best he lied and cheated all the time more worse than all the rest the arabic which he contained was from hijaz it was thought its grammar letters just weren't right especially without dots so where did it originate where could it have come from or where could it have come forth southern levant is where it hails again too far to north the mosque became their focal point the qiblas were confused when gibson found they pointed north he was indeed abused yet what about muhammad's name it's again nowhere to be found the hijaz is the place he walked yet nothing on the ground the rock inscriptions are all blank yet think they say much more of him we cannot find a trace he's really just folklore the coins are equally opaque of heaven there's not a peep perhaps they went on holiday or maybe fell asleep his town mecca where he grew up and where he sought his fate was not known until 741 100 years too late many have said he wrote letters and sent them all around the ashtanami is one case but it has proved a fraud the medinan constitution supposedly is true but it makes too many mistakes its truths are all too few the doctrina yaakovi is also claimed as true but their man in jerusalem turns out to be a jew muhammad did not really live his story is a lie no one can find him anywhere no matter how they try without muhammad islam dies it flits and floats away since we now know he didn't exist islam has had its day david believes he did exist he really has no choice without him he's just incomplete yet gives david a voice if the traditions were correct and muhammad was a man then i would be the first in line to give david my hand but you and i know very well he never lived on earth his story is just fairy tales it really has no worth we know david depends on him he must stay a prophet who else offers him so much fun and makes him so much profit a man who's so embarrassing so full of evil deeds could never be made up there he's everything dave needs thank you [Applause] well thank you panel members this concludes our debate thank you again and i'll turn it over to pastor george uh wha wait wait wait what yeah what one one thing what did he go over we need you to take one more minute i think you need it no we got we got a rapper back here i wanted to see if vader wants to wrap jay's pump i'll give you a beat i'll give you a beat son i don't know if you can wrap it you got this we do not know if this is going to work go to that and go to there okay so you want me to wrap this pawn you want me i'll let you know in 12 seconds you can try like just a couple bars and see if it works because i don't know if it'll i'm concerned about jay's flow is what i'm saying all right what give me a beat david huh give me a b all right ready uh not embarrassing y'all we all know well muhammad's name he's been around a while he lived in mecca so we're told his prophecies on foul yet no one saw him face to face nor heard him speak a word and all i know is that is centuries old and that is downright absurd here's him you wrote his story down lived through centuries too late burkhary wrote it down said that he lived there later today there was just nothing written down they brought hearsay and now here is livingtown 100 miles away and so it seems it's all made up uh i'm made up i'mma keep going say he's made up and that is what we're told result your previous views and introduce the mode they needed an identity different from those before they had no book they needed something more muhammad was the name that they chose maker was this town the quran was a special book each word letter sound yet they said that came from god it was written down by men who lived in iraq far too north not even from his kin the final version that they call has not one of the best he lied and cheated all the time from the rest er we gonna catch the beat i'm gonna keep on going and i'm gonna catch the beat all right arabic which you would contain from hagers and that is what he thought and i know it don't sound like it rhymes but he didn't do it right especially with our dots so where did it originate where did it come forth southern living was his hills to the north the moss became their local point that's awesome thank you so much uh thank you dr david thank you dr jay uh it's awesome um you guys get to choose which position you want to take but uh we all agree both of them agrees that we want to see muslims coming to know jesus as the lord and savior they do need to leave that muhammad that if it was an imaginary muhammad or is was existed muhammad they need to leave that muhammad because he is not giving them any guarantee to be in heaven but the jesus of the bible the uh our our man the man of the book the man our man jesus he can't guarantee them heaven they can guarantee to be an eternity with him uh our all our desire here to see muslims to follow jesus and that's what we need to be praying for amen let's give them another hand thank you so much guys thank you thank you thank you thank you no hugs guys okay okay um tomorrow we're gonna be here at 2 30 but in the morning if you are if you go to the uh ministry to muslims.com tomorrow morning each one of these men here and also anthony rogers speaking in different churches uh cabrillo chapel norco uh jay smith myself who will be there at cabridge chapel norfolk if you would like to come i believe they have two services or only one two services uh 8 30 and 10 30. yeah uh in ministry to muslims.com go to our strong tower you're going to see the schedule there uh in hesperia california sovereign way church uh anthony rogers will be speaking there at 10 in the morning and uh and there's a church locally in i believe in brea is danny here uh where david wood will be speaking but each one of them you can watch them online live if you want to you are not able to go to that church you can just choose one of them and watch uh service if you are out of state if you are locally here i encourage you to go to your home church uh also some of us going to be coming here for church service if you would like to come here that's an option as well but 2 30 exactly we're going to start the schedule tomorrow uh don't miss it we have former muslims from somalia going to be sharing their their stories it's going to be really awesome uh panel discussions and great great topics um i how many of you enjoyed today guys it's awesome thank you so much thank you so much thank you so much let's stand up and close in prayer and remember tomorrow is a sunday they're going to have this place for church service if you can help us to make sure no cups no no trash anything let's pick up stuff and make it reasonable for tomorrow for church if you can help us please thank you heavenly father we just thank you so much lord we thank you lord we thank you lord for today lord i do want to pray for shabir ali lord jesus i pray for the salvation of this man lord i pray that you may reveal yourself to him lord jesus we do lord love that guy lord jesus we want to see him coming to know and we know lord that you love him so much as well lord i pray that you may reveal yourself to him lord jesus and dreams and vision leading him out of islam bringing him to know you as a lord [Music] you

Channel: PfanderFilms

Views: 150,393

Keywords: David Wood, Jay Smith, Debate: Did Muhammad Exist, Did Muhammad Exist?, Muhammad

Id: sdat4tyM40g

Length: 101min 2sec (6062 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 17 2020