David Rubenstein interviews Dr. Anthony Fauci

please welcome david rubenstein president of the economic club of washington d.c welcome everyone i want to thank you for coming to our 12th virtual signature event of our 35th season but for the calendar year it's obviously our first event and i wanted to thank everybody for coming to this event we have a larger attendance i think than any event we've ever had of our members and that's obviously because of our special guest today dr tony fauci who's the director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases and we're going to discuss the whole range of issues related to covet 19 and the vaccination situation thank you very much tony for being here today my pleasure good to be with you david now tony it was reported that you went to the north pole to vaccinate santa claus and my question as uh one uh did he get that vaccine because he was over the age of let's say 70 or because he was an essential health care worker what qualification did he have to get the vaccine it was both david both so i wanted to make sure we did it correctly and no one got offended so he had both categories yes indeed both did he have any side effects uh his arm hurt a little bit for about 24 hours and then after that it was good okay so now you were vaccinated recently um did you have any side effects no actually it was really relatively benign david i uh as with most vaccinations you can get a little bit of an ache in your arm it starts about eight to ten hours after the vaccination it lasts no more than 24 to 36 hours i didn't get any fever or chills or muscle aches so it was a pretty benign experience and have you found that there have been a lot of side effects from others there was a report that some people i think it was in alaska who had some severe side effects is that because the vaccine wasn't properly refrigerated or what would you say is the reason for that no no not at all there have been reports there have been now between four and five million doses of vaccine that have been distributed there were reports uh the the alaskan report that you mentioned and then there were some reports uh from the uk uh in the vaccine that's the fisa vaccine and then a couple in the modern vaccine of anaphylactic type reactions of people who have a history of a severe allergic reaction uh they were now that we've gone into millions it's an unusual complication it's reversible and treatable and apart from that there have been no other serious adverse events so the the recommendation is that if you have a history of a severe allergic reaction when you get the vaccine you should get it applied to you in a location where someone could treat an allergic reaction if you get it but it has now turned out as we get into the millions of people who've received it to be an unusual adverse event the vaccines uh let's suppose i haven't been vaccinated yet but suppose i i have a choice i could get a pfizer or moderna or somebody else does it really make a difference are they all essentially the same well the only ones that we have data on david are the moderna and the pfizer they're both the same type of vaccine it's called an mrna or a messenger rna vaccine interestingly the data on each of those was virtually identical they have about a 94 to 95 percent efficacy percentage which is really quite impressive and the safety profile is the same so it doesn't matter which of those two you get they're essentially equivalent okay now let's suppose you've already had uh covert 19 as some members of my family have should they get the vaccine or not they should david but they should wait about 90 days after they have gotten the infection so for example we feel that the individuals who get infected um are protected for a while but we don't know how long so in order to assure that they don't get re-infected we do recommend that people who have been infected actually do get uh a vaccine so you shouldn't rule yourself out okay if you get the vaccine uh do you need to wear a mask anymore or you can forget the masks no you should wear a mask and the reason is the primary endpoint for the vaccine efficacy was whether it prevented you from getting clinically recognizable disease it certainly prevents you from getting severe disease but what we don't know yet is whether it prevents you from getting a symptomatic infection in other words that does the vaccine prevent you from actually getting the virus that replicates in your nasal pharynx so since we don't know that yet it is recommended that you wear a mask the second thing is until we get the overwhelming majority of people in the population and i would imagine that would be about 70 to 85 percent if we get them vaccinated we'll get to a level of what we call herd immunity which means that there'll be very little opportunity for the virus to circulate in the community when that occurs then you could pull back a bit on the public health measures but until that occurs there's still going to be a lot of virus circulating in the community and that's the reason why we we continue to recommend strongly that people abide by the public health measures of universal wearing of mass physical distancing and avoiding crowds in congregate settings particularly indoors okay so um you would say that the new strain that has been coming out there's reports of of a strain i think it's called n501y i don't know where they get that name from but um that is in south africa in england and so forth a virulent strain is the vaccine going to be effective against that strain well david be careful of the use of the word virulence so let me tell you where we stand there are there are two types of mutants that have occurred one in the united in the uk which has now really dominated uh the spread of infection there the brits have looked at it carefully we are now in the process of also examining it it is in the united states but there have been individual reports it doesn't dominate the scene in the united states what it does according to the brits is that it makes it easier for the virus to spread from person to person so it is a virus that is in in many respects more transmissible it is not according to the brits more virulent virulent means it makes you more sick and has a better chance of killing you that does not appear to be the case nor does it appear to be the case that it escapes the protection that's induced by the vaccines that we're using the one from the republic of south africa is a little bit more complicated because it overlaps a bit with the mutation in the uk but it is a little bit more complicated because some of those mutations might have a negative impact on the efficacy of some of the monoclonal antibodies that are used so we're looking into that very carefully okay now why do you have to get two shots uh for a vaccine well i understand johnson johnson has a one-shot vaccine but why when i get a vaccine for other things like polio or measles it's a one-shot why was this a two-shot vaccine well when we did the clinical trials david it became clear that although you had some degree of immunity and protection after the first dose the boost that you get with the second dose elevates that almost by tenfold so the amount of protection that you get after the second dose it's considerably more than the first dose and for that reason the standard recommendation for moderna is a primary followed in 28 days by a boost and for pfizer it's a primary followed by 21 days for the boost okay so let's suppose somebody gets the initial shot and they say i don't want a second one my arm hurt too much or i forget to get the second one or whatever it is is there any efficacy to having the first shot without getting the second shot well you won't get optimal efficacy you'll get some degree of protection and what we don't know is how long is the duration of that protection we do know that the duration of the protection is at least several months likely more maybe a year or more than that we need to follow them longer but we do know that the duration of only a single shot and the optimal effect of only a single shot is not nearly as good as the boost following the single shot well suppose somebody says i really want to be protected so i'm going to go get a pfizer shot and a pfizer boost and then a month or two later i'm going to get a modernist shot and a modernity boost um is that going to help the person or hurt the person well it almost certainly wouldn't hurt the person but the clinical studies have not been done to show whether that would be of any added benefit so i mean obviously you could do it theoretically it might make it better but that would not be anything that we would advise doing for the simple reason that the shot that's the prime in the boost is 94 to 95 effective it's tough to get any better than that when you're doing a vaccine so for normal vaccines let's say polio vaccine or measles vaccine or mumps is 94 95 basically the best you can get there's no such thing as 100 well nothing is 100 with vaccinology but the probably the best we have is measles which is about 98 effective so we're not quite as good as measles but we're really close with 94 to 95 so this would rank among the really very very good efficacious vaccines now um there were no tests done as i understand it in the testing process for these vaccines for people who already um had coveted 19. in other words i i think you you the testing was for people who didn't have it is that correct or did you actually test people who actually had kobe 19. we actually had about two percent or more of the people who came into the trial when we did antibody tests on specimens that were drawn before we vaccinated them we found that they actually had been exposed and infected with the sars cov2 so it's a very small percentage you can't get any really meaningful data from that but there was an inclusion to the tune of a little bit more than two percent of people who actually had been infected prior to the vaccination now in the history of science i assume that getting a vaccine like this done in basically nine months is a historic uh achievement um is there anything that's ever been done this quickly before in the vaccination world david not even close so you're absolutely right it is historic the sequence of the new virus was made public on the 9th of january of 2020 and in december of this year the first doses went into the arms of people following a vaccine trial plural since there were two of them uh that show the 94 to 95 efficacy under most circumstances of vaccinology this would have taken several years to accomplish and the the i might add david so people don't get the wrong impression the speed did not sacrifice safety nor did it sacrifice scientific integrity it was a reflection of the really breathtaking advances in the science of vaccine platform technology and the enormous amount of investment that was made to essentially manufacture doses of the virus of the vaccine excuse me before you even knew that it worked so the companies rather the united states government since we bankrolled it the the the government took a very big risk financially to make an investment in something before we even knew it worked the other thing that's important is there was so much infection in the community that the clinical trials were completed in a matter of months rather than years because the two things that give you an answer quickly is the number of people in the trial and in the in the modernity trial there were 30 000 people in the fisa trial there were 44 000 people so that's on the very high side and the second thing is the amount of infection in the community and as you know we are in a very very difficult surge of cases in our country that is record-breaking every single day it's terrible terrible for society but it makes testing a vaccine much easier well let me ask you when you get vaccinated you get in your arm and when i was younger as a kid i think used to get a different part of the anatomy was to have a shot in why is it the arm that's the the best place to get it now well you want to get it into a muscle and a very accessible muscle is this deltoid muscle right there so it's easy to do and it's quick uh you want to pick another muscle uh it doesn't make much sense to give it in the butt because you have to go put your pants down you know stick it in whereas here you just lift your sleeve up and you stick the needle in i see okay so um well that was the part of the anatomy i was referring to but i guess they don't do that anymore okay so let me ask you if you were in a trial and you got a placebo not the vaccine do you now know that you got the placebo and do you get kind of the head of the line for some reason to get a vaccine yes in most vaccines and it it differs from company to company and vaccine but the standard thing that happens is once the data are made known that the people can say i want to get unblinded i want to know whether i got the vaccine or not and most companies will let them know and give them the vaccine uh since they were a willing participant in the trial so ultimately they get the vaccine anyway so today um there has been some criticism of the fact that the vaccine is not being distributed as quite as quickly as people would like i think you had said you would hope that 20 million would have been vaccinated by the end of the year and i think we're well below that why do you think that um the the care that was put into doing the vaccine developing it the same type of care wasn't put into figuring out how to actually get it distributed well david i think we have to wait for the first couple of weeks in january to make any determination as to what's gone wrong if anything clearly no excuses we should have gotten 20 distributed and 20 into the arms of people by 20 i mean 20 million what happened is that whenever you have a brand new massive program the likes of which we've never undertaken before on a national basis and you start it in the middle of the holiday season between christmas and new year's i think there's a good reason again no excuses but you can explain why you may not have gotten to the level you want now not to make excuses we should have done better so let me make that clear we should have done better but i think we should wait until we get into maybe the second or the third week in january to see if we can now catch up with the original pace that was set now israel has vaccinated i think 10 or more of the population already in israel how did they get the vaccine so quickly uh distributed well you know different countries have different systems different health care systems i mean those countries that have a unified national health care system generally can just get things in by plugging it into their system as you know we have a very wide heterogeneous health care approach so first of all we wanted to get it to the hospital workers that is the first priority and then to people in nursing homes the roll out of that as you mentioned appropriately and accurately was not as smooth as we would have wanted it really depends on the system that you have in place of delivering health care now on herd immunity early on you were saying that herd immunity would be roughly 60 percent i think you're now saying maybe it's 80 or 90 percent can you explain why you have increased what you i think is the appropriate percentage for herd immunity well you know david wood i think it's important for people to know we do not know what level or what percentage of the population needs to be vaccinated in order to get hurt immunity and by herd immunity you mean enough protection in the society that the virus really has no place to go because most of the people are protected we don't know what that percentage is we know what the percentage is in measles because we've had experience for decades with measles and what happens when you do not get a certain percentage of people vaccinated so i had originally said about 70 is what i had said um then when i we when i did an extrapolation to measles i said well you know measles is 98 effective vaccine we know that when they go below 90 of the population as we saw with the orthodox jewish population in new york because they didn't vaccinate their community when they got down into the 80s they lost a degree of herd immunity now measles is one of the most transmissible viruses known to man in fact it might be the most transmissible the more transmissible the virus is the higher percentage of the population that you need to get vaccinated to get hurt immunity for measles that was about 93 percent or so 94 when you get below 90 you get into trouble so i merely made a calculation and said since coronavirus is highly transmissible but not quite as much as measles and the protection is 94 to 95 percent not quite as much as the 98 of measles i brought up my projection which again is still a guesstimate and i said well now it's probably somewhere between 70 and 85 a bit short of what's required of measles but higher than what i originally estimated so that's the somewhat long story of why i was saying 70 75 in the beginning and then i brought it up to 70 to 85 percent do you think the u.s government or any state government or employers should be able to require employees or workers or individuals to be vaccinated well we're certainly not going to have a central mandate from the federal government but the precedent for requiring vaccinations is not new for example right now myself as a physician that sees patients at the nih clinical center it is required that i get vaccinated with the influenza vaccine every year otherwise i'm not allowed to see patients so there are requirements already so i would imagine that some industrial entities some schools and other entities might actually at the local level require that people get vaccinated before they can participate in whatever function of that institution is i mean we do it already in public schools if you don't show a certificate of being vaccinated you're not allowed to be in the school now we have had more than 350 000 americans die from covet some people say these statistics are not accurate some people say actually we've lost more some people say we've lost less is there a standard that we use to calculate whether it's a covalent related death and is that different for other countries around the world ours is about the same as other countries i believe that that number of its over 350 000 deaths is a real number obviously there are some cases that are missed and maybe some cases that are felt to be coveted and they really primarily died of others but i think at the end of the day it's going to be a wash they'll likely eliminate each other i think that the 350 plus thousand is a real number and that's a really really bad number based on projections it is projected by some uh specialist in this area that we might lose as many as 450 000 people before this is over is that a fair estimate your view well that's what the models tell us um david we're we're we're we're going now between two and three thousand deaths per day so if you just do the math on that and say you know three months from now or close to 100 days from now you know that's another 3 000 times a hundred you know that's a lot of a lot of deaths why are why is the hospitals now so full that they can't even take new patients in many cases what is causing this um virulence at this point and we're losing more people now than than three or four months ago a day yeah well david i hate to correct you but but just for a technical because somebody will email me about it all right it's not the word virulence virulence means how how serious the disease is transmissibility is when you get a lot of new infections so why is this virus being transmitted so readily right now there are a number of reasons for that uh first of all i think people in many parts of the country are so fatigued we call it covert fatigue with abiding by the public health measures that they're not doing the simple things to protect themselves the wearing of masks the physical separation and the avoiding congregate settings you take that and superpose upon that that we are now in the winter months the late fall early winter which in fact has people do things indoors much more preferentially than outdoors which is always really bad for a respiratory-borne illness and third we've had sequential holiday seasons where people have traveled got into crowded airports and train stations got on planes and trains went to different parts of the country to visit their loved ones which is totally understandable but not really good for public health and then they get into settings where you have dinners and social gatherings which are very characteristic of the holiday season well those these things are wonderful again they're bad for transmissible infections that are respiratory borne so i think all of those three factors together are the reason why we're seeing this surge but if you go to a hospital today and you have coveted 19 are the hospitals better able to treat you than six months ago because they know much more about how to treat you or are they not really knowing much more than they did six months ago no it's much better in fact if you look at the rate of deaths not the number of deaths but the rate of deaths or less for example we know how to treat people with advanced disease that require intensive care intubation and ventilation much better now than we did let's say six months ago that is a natural evolution with any disease when you see a lot of it you get much better at treating it are we losing so many people because we're doing more testing is testing the reason that people are dying absolutely not now people are dying because they're infected and they're sick and there are more infections more hospitalizations and more deaths those are real numbers now on testing i've been tested several times uh one time you spit into a tube and they give you the results in two days or something like that another time they put a swab halfway up your brain and maybe it affects your gray matter and somewhat and sometimes they just put a little bit in your nose so what is the most effective way to be tested and is there one gold standard for a testing that you would recommend that people use well probably the best one that doesn't cause you a lot of discomfort is what's called the mid turbinate when you swish around the the the uh the the swab in the anterior part you may miss what's back there if you go all the way back it feels like it went into your eye you don't need to do that david you could do a mid-turbinate which is halfway in between swab it around stick it in and you'll get a very accurate result so that's the gold standard a pcr or a molecular test and has testing better than it was at the beginning of this in other words is it can anybody get a test if they want to get a test which is what we once thought was the case but sometimes people still tell me they don't know how to get a test yeah that's true well we're getting better and better we're not where i would like it to be what i would like to see is and we're almost there because there are tests that now you can get in the pharmacy and get it done yourself i would like to see what's called a point-of-care test which is sensitive specific inexpensive you could buy it yourself without a prescription and you could get the result yourself that is doable that's what i'd like to see a lot of so people would know if they want to go visit their parents or their children or whomever that they are not infected that i hope is where we get very soon if you are infected and you go to a hospital there are some therapeutics i guess people are being given president trump apparently got a therapeutic and i guess rudy giuliani got a therapeutic that seems to be a wonder drug can anybody get that wonder drug if they need it well none of them are wonder drugs they are shown to be helpful enough that remdesseviere has been approved and the monoclonal antibodies that the president and giuliani received are under what's called an emergency use authorization which means it is available but your physician would have to request it from the company to get it so okay um but if you get it um it it does seem to work right well their data that are shown from a number of trials indicate that it does benefit you the earlier you get it the better is the effect okay and um today would you say that we're making as much progress in getting therapeutics um uh available to their people as we are in getting vaccines or how would you compare no no that's a good question david uh vaccines are a clear home run uh if you want to be metaphorical about it it's really a home run in that and we have already after 11 months we have a very efficacious vaccine that's safe the real challenge is just getting it into the arms of people with therapeutics i would say it's maybe a single or a double it's not a home run yet because we don't really have the kinds of drugs where you give it that can stop the virus in its tracks that's what we need that's what we're making major investments and trying to get if somebody wants to be tested let's suppose you're going to fly overseas or you need to be tested for some reason what is the best way for an average citizen to get a test today yeah well there are a number of clinics that make tests available your physician if you have one could tell you the best way to do it could be drawing a blood send it out to places like lab core and quest and others and then there are now these other tests that i'm telling you about that are being able to be available in pharmaceutical uh uh establishments such as drug stores the vaccine um that has been approved today there are two of them in the united states pfizer and moderna do you anticipate others to be approved relatively in the near future uh yes i do david right now there's another company called janssen which is the pharmaceutical component of johnson and johnson they have completed the enrollment of their clinical trial will be getting data that will be submitted to the fda very likely by the end of january and hopefully by february we will have doses that will be able to be distributed hopefully i i i think i'm pretty close in my projections there but the final determination will be made by the company there are a couple of other companies that are getting support from the us government one of them is astrozenica which has another trial that's ongoing in this country as well as in the uk and there's another company right in our local area here called novovax which is a different vaccine that is being tested so all in all we have five that are in play right now okay these are that are in play and the two that have been approved are under operating under emergency authorization um but will they get permanent authorization or is it going to be temp permanent emergency authorization no the data again i don't want to get ahead of the fda david but if you look at the data which i have they are really quite impressive the safety data is sound but to get 94 to 95 percent efficacy and to protect even better against serious disease is something that i think is going to be a pretty good pathway to permanent approval of both of these but again i don't want to get ahead of the fda it's their decision so have you noticed that what i've noticed in my safe self that i staying at home a lot i'm gaining a lot of weight is that a big problem for my health or what how do you how do you stay in shape uh when you're trying to stay at home all the time well david what i recommend you do is that you go out um get a mask on and do some exercise be it walking or running but you are correct that there is when you ask people for the most part people when you have nothing else to do but be cooked up cooped up one of the things is you eat more so people are actually gaining weight uh more than they normally would under circumstances that would allow them to be out and about but i know uh you do do exercise i know that so why don't you just keep it up um i think about exercising a lot now you uh you power walk with your wife every night i guess or something like that yeah three miles or something like that yeah about three or four miles when it's cold outside don't you say well i'll skip an a or something like that you know you got to sometimes force yourself out the door like last night when we went out in our run or power walk as it were i don't run as much as i used to um it it it hurt a little for the first uh i'd say quarter of a mile i was really cold until i warmed up a bit and then i was fine okay so um you are uh you've worked for six united states presidents you've been the head of the uh division for um the institute for uh since 1984. so um and now you're about to work for your seventh president uh do you know joe biden from previous experience do you have worked with him before uh yes i have had the privilege of of working with president-elect biden uh during his uh tenure for eight years as vice president he was very much involved when we would have meetings in the situation room with president obama during the flu crisis during the uh ebola crisis during the zika so i have considerable interaction with him during those years okay so what is your new role going to be you're still going to be the head of the infectious allergy and infectious disease institute but you uh have some additional role with him as well is that correct i do uh he's made the title chief medical advisor which means he's going to want me in and we're already doing it in the transition on the major discussions and decisions that have to do with covet and other types of infectious disease challenges that we might face over the next years during his presidency so what would you expect the average american citizen to see as a difference between one administration and the other in handling this uh without getting into political issues is there something that the average person will see as a difference or not really i know i think you're going to see a difference because as as he himself has said that president-elect biden and vice president-elect uh harris are very much involved uh literally almost in a hands-on way in making sure that the country addresses this crisis we're in in a very serious way he has a few objectives that he's already mentioned publicly uh one is to get a hundred million people vaccinated in the first hundred days which means a million people per day he wants everybody to wear a mask for at least 100 days to show that wearing a mask can turn around the trajectory of the outbreak so there are already a lot of things that he himself is very much involved in encouraging the country to do to get over this terrible situation that we're in when you wear a mask is it useless to wear a mask it doesn't cover your nose uh not useless but it's it's half as good because you know virus can enter into your nose so um how long should one use a mask before discarding it can you you know you use it for a day or uh one time or a week or how long does is it you know it depends it depends david on the kind of mask so let's say for example this is a cloth mask so i wear this i take it off at night i throw it into uh i have a lot of these so i might throw it into the hamper to get to get washed the ones that are paper some of them are washable some of them you just throw out after you're finished so okay so um there's no particular mask you're recommending there's no tony fauci recommended mask right no there's not so um going forward um uh let's talk about a typical day you and i just mentioned earlier before we went on that you had already seen patients today right why are you still seeing patients when you're solving the whole you know u.s problem how do you have time for patience well you know as i as i mentioned to you many times before david my day over the past year now it was uh i would say i i have not taken a day off since last january and that's not hyperbole it's just the case my day's packed you know i get up at five and i go into work at 6 30 and i'm there till late and then i'd come home and run so today for example well let me answer your specific question i see patience david because my identity my primary identity is as a physician and that really informs and influences everything i do my public health work my basic scientific work the kinds of things i do in response as a public health person um to an outbreak whether that's hiv aids or ebola or zika or in this case covet 19 everything revolves back to my identity as a physician so i don't ever want to lose that strong identity so that's the reason why i continue and have been seeing patients literally from the time i got to the nih decades and decades ago because it really connects you with the reality of what you're dealing with so when i start talking about the disease what it can do what you can do to prevent getting it why vaccines are important the very fact that you're dealing with a real human being who's suffering from the disease gives you a perspective that you can't get by reading about it and i don't want to ever give that up okay so um recently you had a uh birthday party uh and um at your birthday party did you have hundreds of people show up and to thank you for what you're doing that would have violated all of the things that i have been telling the american public to do no my wife threw a surprise zoom party for me and son of a gun she does it every decade she keeps surprising me i thought now that no one would travel and no one would be around that there's no chance in the world she's going to trick me this time but she did she got people who are my good friends like you and many of the people that i've been involved with literally from all over the world and when i walked into the house the only human being that was there was my wife so there were two people in the house but the screen was full of boxes of my friends that i've known over the years so it was a very unusual birthday party but it certainly was a surprise and thank you for coming so um uh your daughters they didn't come home you didn't want them to come home for your birthday party no david i didn't want them to travel they live in cities that would require a plane trip i and i've been telling people throughout the country to please avoid unnecessary travel and i just wanted to live by what i've been telling the american people to do so my daughters have not come home the first time since their birth that they haven't spent my birthday with me so do you expect to get any time off the next this coming year or this year we're in this year already yeah i hope they get any time off this year you know david i don't think i'm going to be putting that on my own radar screen until we get enough people vaccinated that the dynamics of this outbreak dramatically diminish and when i say dramatically diminish i mean have virtually little impact on our lives and that's when i get to what i said that herd immunity level of anywhere from 70 to 85 percent of the people getting vaccinated i don't think that's going to happen until the end of the summer the beginning of the fall if we do it correctly so we're talking about some significant months to go before i can sort of sit back and say that you know take a rest for a while now i'm sure you could uh retire tomorrow and go out and write a book for 50 million dollars or go in the speaking circuit for a million dollars of speech uh you're not tempted to do that no i have a pretty important job now david which i'm gonna do until we finish the job what happens after that who knows but right now there's the only thing that's tempting me is to get this outbreak over with have you thought that when you were a high school basketball star if you've been a little taller you could have been an nba player and really made something of your life as opposed to doing what you're doing has it ever crossed your mind oh to this day it pains me so you were a guard not you you were not good at dunking i guess right i was not good at dunking and and i was a short point guard so tony i want to thank you on behalf of all americans and everybody that cares about uh this country and the healthcare situation we have obviously you worked tirelessly and thank you for helping to get the vaccine uh available and hopefully it'll get distributed much more efficiently in the near future and i hope you have continued good health and thank you for your service to our country david thank you very much for having me i really appreciate it it's always a pleasure to be with you thank you bye

Channel: The Economic Club of Washington, D.C.

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Id: IczNzFQrkwA

Length: 42min 54sec (2574 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 06 2021