Dave Chappelle's Closer: Pure Transphobia, or Something More?

it just was kind of strange to me to see a lot of white lgbtq people and even like some black people say oh i really really like chappelle and his old comedy you know but now he's punching down on vulnerable people and i'm like he was always punching down on vulnerable people it's an extremely difficult and painful time to be trans there are all these bills around the world and he's adding fuel to that fire i think there's this idea that straight black men just die and it's just such a default baseline condition would you agree with me that's at core to a lot of this is this claim that in today's world there's a certain currency to victimization that is part of what's driving this oppression olympics and that ironically even though dave chappelle seems to be critiquing that reality he is himself fighting for a kind of premier victim status for black people because he feels like people don't care enough i'm very glad to be joined today by trevor bullier you know him you love him from champaign sharks he's a friend of the show he's been on lots of times before he is not only one of our favorite podcasters he's also an immigration lawyer welcome trevor thanks for having me i'm always uh glad to be here and you know seeing your wonderful camera qualities like uh watching a tv show it makes me feel inadequate but i'm glad to be here well look we'll get you we'll get you there trevor we'll keep sharing specs and i'll keep sharing what setting powder i'm using until we get you to the quality level that you want to give me presentable presentable to the world and we're also joined today by dr steven thrasher who is a professor of journalism and lgbtq health at northwestern thank you for joining us dr thrasher thanks so much it's great to be back with you again yes we had a great episode about covid stuff back in the fall and we have to have you on to talk more about that going forward but today i am so glad both of you were willing to submit yourself to the gauntlet of talking about one of the hottest button issues that there are right now which is the new chapel show closer now this is the closing act as it were of a series of his netflix specials each of which has been met with a more controversial response from the public than the last i want to start by asking you trevor do you think this bad boy should have aired in the first place i am fine with it airing and i'm also fine with other people you know having problems with it like i um because you can't speak for everybody but i mean i had no problem with the airing i thought i had some good bits i thought i had some good parts some parts i thought went on too long some parts i got the point he was trying to make but i thought he could have made it in a better way in some parts i you know um thought were spot on but i mean in general unless something is like really threatening like the public health or like the safety of people i am not the kind of person that you know just thinks that you know things should be kept from airing but i know that's also a point of distinction because some people actually do think that this threatens the public health and safety of some marginalized group so to the extent that i don't think it does uh threaten those groups i do not um think it should be um censored but i understand that my opinion isn't the be all and all on this and some people truly do think that this is something that escalates to an actual existential and physical threat to uh trans people so well dr thrasher you're somewhat of an expert in this area so let's put that question to you you know what do you make of the claims that some of the jokes told in the special jokes that you know talk about you know beating up lesbians or um you know are arguably diminish the concerns of trans people in particular put them at a higher risk of physical violence or even legal threat i think it's a very very fair critique in whether or not something is allowed to be aired or not it's certainly very right for critique i i very much understand why people are criticizing it and understand from trans people i know and writers i read why they do find it to be an existential threat um i have not watched the entirety of this special i've watched clips from a bunch of parts of it i've read a lot about it and i think that there is a very good case that it's um creating a quite hostile environment i was disappointed by how he was framing um trans people in general and i i think it's strange that netflix has come out in so many ways for black lives and four black trans lives uh last last summer a year ago when a lot of the protests were being led by black trans people uh i don't think that they would have released this special with a white comic using the same kinds of jokes about black people that he is using against trans people as a cis person and his framing was really upsetting in the way that he did something i've actually not heard um many black public figures view before and that he really posited being lgbt or particularly tea as being white that was that was how he was coding it he talked about whether or not somebody was trans or whether they're black and talked about the lgbtq community punching down on black people um and so that one erases the idea that there are of course well-established histories and current culture of black trans people and black lgbtq people um but it was also strange the way he was framing the idea of punching down because the people he's talking about punching down are himself kevin hart the baby um black uh performers who are doing quite well financially they're not being cancelled they're probably not going to be cancelled economically and i don't think that that's a good frame to think about punching down on them when people who are legitimately afraid of their lives and in many ways are in popular culture um positioned the way black people were 20 30 40 50 years ago and wanting not only bad stereotypes about themselves and not only wanting images that cause harm uh i don't think it's a fair thing to say that those people who are quite in positions of precarity can punch down on celebrities celebrities are there to be critiqued they don't just have to be worshipped or have media in the world that nobody says anything bad about right so there's there's one critique that says you know cancel culture is often talking about people who are very rich and powerful and obviously aren't canceled chappelle's special goes forward he's got lots of money i think when you're right one of the weakest points is when he brings kevin hart into it at the end and he literally says um taking a man's livelihood is akin to killing him talking about not canceling folks and then immediately talks about well obviously kevin hart isn't dead which you know why would then you why would you even say that taking a man's life as much as i may or may not be pro firing someone in any given instance it just he sets himself up for failure but he is i think also making a different critique which is um that he rightly or wrongly perceives it to be more socially acceptable to make a certain critique of black folks than it is of certain members of the lgbt community and in doing so to your point he erases the extent to which obviously there are lots of black people in the lgbt community but also in the anecdote he talked about he said he was in a bar and ended up basically in a confrontation with a large white guy who as they were about to get into it he realized was gay and then worried oh shoot i'm going to be this is this isn't going to look good for me right and then when the confrontation escalated that the white gay man went to call the cops which and then you know he goes on and say and says basically that you know gay people are minorities until they want to be white like they need to be white and i feel like that's a critique i've heard from plenty of black members of the lgbtq community as well and i wonder what you make of that if there was any legitimacy there for you in that critique dr thrasher well that kind of that kind of uh critique is is a legitimate critique i don't think that he's making it in a very good way because he's also doing his other harms at the same time and he doesn't seem to be putting that kind of analysis to um to the kinds of people he's talking about the other parts of the special and ironically he is kind of reproducing some of the harms that that he's talking about in that piece so when the stonewall riots happened in the late 1960s these different ways that the lgbt community comes together and pulls apart around racial identity and around class solidarity or class stratification and in the stonewall riots in the late 1960s you had a very cross-class cross-racial coalition that was yelling about and fighting back against police brutality and really about economics uh the people in the stonewall bar were being shaken down by the mafia and by the police and you had a quite wide swath of people and so it's you know it's uneven but there was a lot of class difference there and there was kind of a coalition that um was fighting around lgbtq rights or rights around sexuality intersected with all kinds of racial fights as well the black panthers were part of it uh the latin kings were part of that there were all kinds of fights for racial justice that were overlapping with this coalition and so you have a loose and uneven coalition but some kind of coalition that exists for some time then as you get to the 70s and 80s the same neighborhood where this happened the west village of new york you do also have white gay people starting to buy property in these places and two of my colleagues write about this well sarah shulman and christina handhart you could look at these neighborhoods in new york that did become kind of gay enclaves the west village which was a lot of gay man and park slope which was a lot of lesbian women and then you did start having as certain members of the community white members of the community were buying property they would start calling the cops on other people in the neighborhood um there's this great irony now in the west village where the piers are just just off of the village right anyone who's seeing paris is burning or pose knows that like these are scenes where a lot of the ballroom stuff happened where kids who didn't have a home to go to would sleep out at night and so um for property values the a lot of the gay uh gay homeowners don't want them in the neighborhood literally put barriers up around it during pride uh have ended up having a fence on the pier so people can't sleep there overnight so there are these critiques that are fair about what happens and chappelle i don't think is making that seriously um because the same if you have that sort of analysis of what happens class wise and what happens in terms of racial identity sexual identity in class then you wouldn't see trans people who are being who are extremely precarious to losing their livelihoods and are extremely precarious to being harmed by the police particularly when they're also trans people of color you wouldn't see them as being powerless when they're critiquing a celebrity i don't i don't think he's coming at that kind of analysis right but i i do think like obviously like i said the celebrity critique is one thing but i think that the thrust of what he is doing effectively or not is to ask the question of whether or not there is a kind of a hierarchy of oppression that exists where people feel less at risk of social backlash or being critical of black folks i want to pull up a tweet from you trevor where you said i get people who never liked chappelle complaining now but when i see people who admit to loving the older stuff getting on a high horse it feels off to me because he was mocking vulnerable people back then too want to unpack that for us yeah my basic thought is that um if i can understand some people who just thought that um he was always bad when it came to mocking marginalized people and stuff and that consistency you know i can appreciate but it just was kind of strange to me to see a lot of white lgbtq lgbtq people and even like some black people say oh i really like them i was responding to a particular thread but the person's like i really really like chappelle and his old comedy you know but now he's punching down on vulnerable people and i'm like he was always punching down on vulnerable people but then people will defend that to me by saying oh but it's okay because it's in group so it's a black uh straight man making fun of black people but i mean we realize all the time with people like candace owen and larry elder that just being up the right group doesn't give you a pass to say whatever especially if out of the in-group argument counts when you have an out-group audience like for example my family you know can make fun of me and then they can joke and say oh it's okay because you know we're family but if my family if the missing context says my family was making fun of me in front of people not in the family to make them laugh and to get more popular you know then it wouldn't be the same thing like like my my sister or my aunt or my cousin can't say oh no it's within the family it's like no dude you're doing this to make um other people laugh at me and to increase your own popularity so i just feel like in a way that this course kind of adds to chappelle's point about that i just think black people are just kind of seen as being born to suffer so there's a certain amount of suffering or acceptance of a degraded condition that you just are supposed to accept out the out the gate you know and if but if it happens to other people as a bridge uh too far so seeing this person complain that uh when you make fun of vulnerable people that's a step too far but i mean he's making fun of crack heads he's doing minstrel um and that wasn't in group i mean as far as i know so as you know that wasn't an in-group joke as far as i know that you know dave chappelle has never been addicted to crack cocaine so that that level of excuse kind of goes out out the window and so i would have put up a specific joke that he does later which i thought was it was interesting he he basically says direct response to the criticism he's gotten over his lgbtq jokes that they weren't actually ever about i'm not talking about them i'm talking about us like these jokes weren't about members of the lgbtq community and so much as they were about his feelings about how the black community is treated in these spaces and of course he very famously walked away from a 50 million dollar deal because he felt like people were laughing at him rather than with him with respect to these jokes that were largely along the lines of racial humor and his argument is that he is drawing contrasts in order to reveal the hypocrisy of society basically and so in this one joke he me he says why was it why was it easier or why is it yeah why was it easier for he says bruce jenner to change their gender then uh cassius clay to be accepted for his new name and i think he very purposefully used you know said bruce jenner and then cassius clay almost felt like he was trying to set a a trap of sorts you know for people who were very you know would say okay why are you dead naming caitlyn jenner and then he could reply well why didn't you have an objection to me saying cash is clay like i can feel his brain working he's setting up all of these parallels and like it's like it's like bait so so what do you make of that um is it as simple as okay that's a false equivalence and you know changing your name or changing your religion isn't as stigmatized and isn't the same as changing one's gender expression or you know you know living your life as your true gender expression like what what what is the difference so the there are a couple of interesting things about caitlyn jenner and i remember when she came out it was the same week that rachel dolezal uh was exposed and so there was this immediate conflation with uh is this you know fraudulent the same way that dolezal was largely framed not entirely but largely framed as a fraud and caitlyn jenner or being exposed as a fraud and caitlyn jenner was mostly accepted in a lot of press um not entirely but had certainly a pretty warm reception compared to other trans people well chappelle's point was you know in caitlyn's first year out she won woman of the year and you know he makes a joke about oh he's you know in her she's better she beats every woman in detroit where you know the the special was and how are you supposed to feel about that right and so caitlyn jenner is um it's an extreme person to pick because she's already a celebrity she's attached to one of the most famous families in america um it is quite well-off economically um in terms of race you know very much codes as white which is a big part of what what my problem with the way that he's talking um you know has turned out to be a republican has been extremely anti-lgbt and extremely racist uh and anti-immigrant and and lots of problematic positions um caitlyn jenner is not representative at all i think of the re live reality of most queer people and so a critique against her i think it's kind of a false critique because she doesn't represent what um reality is for most lgbtq people i think that muhammad ali uh you know even though he of course became a very famous person the world over was very representative of the struggles of black america and the kinds of things that he were going through even as a celebrity were representative of the ways that black people were disrespected the way that they're not allowed to have uh contentious political opinions that they couldn't be against the war and so i don't find them uh great to compare to each other but caitlyn jenner is someone who comes up in these conversations a lot and just you know the way she is that she ran for being the governor it's a convenient person to go against because she's um she's not a kind person she's has a lot of offensive political opinions to the left broadly um and she has a lot of money and and going after someone like that creates the illusion that itself i think is a very racist uh illusion that gay people are primari lgbt people are primarily white that were primarily rich and it's an outdated paradigm like some of some of the critiques i've read about chappelle they just seem out of step with the time so around the time when he first had his tv show will and grace was probably the broadest cultural reference point people had for gay people and that created also the idea that gay people are rich white men who live in manhattan which is not the reality for most queer people and caitlyn jenner kind of is in the same mode in between these 20 years we've seen so much more culture in even in the mainstream culture through pose through all kinds of things showing that so many queer people and trans people are black and they're poor and they uh and they deal with hiv disproportionately and they've dealt with coven disproportionately and they deal with homelessness disproportionately so i think for chappelle to kind of skip all of that and hold caitlyn jenner up as the ideal is very unfair to to the liberality of most lgbt people well let's say hypothetically i'm let me play a little devil's advocate here a lot of the references that he used were celebrities you know i take your point about muhammad ali you know because he was a his involvement in civil rights struggle because of his um conscientious observer status and going to jail was very much kind of like putting himself in the line of fire and suffering similar experiences to your average everyday black person but a lot of the examples that are used here are other celebrities so he said he's bringing up you know the baby um getting so-called cancelled which you know is extremely arguable he has two songs in the top 100 right now so right four you know for um his comments at a concert which imply that his lgbt fans had aids and he compares that to the amount of backlash that the baby didn't get for shooting someone in a walmart which if you google it apparently with self-defense and so i mean i don't really that's again not his his strongest point but there does seem to be to me another argument that he's making here which i i wonder if separate apart from david chappelle you feel is resonant at all about the relative treatment because even caitlyn jenner you know even a celebrity to celebrity there's an argument that caitlyn jenner has still a certain degree of acceptability within liberal spheres despite her politics despite her behavior despite all these other things on the axis of identity that some of these black actors like you know public figures don't i wanna trevor go ahead and get in here uh i just want to add one thing um by the time um muhammad ali had the press conference to change his name he was already um an olympic champion and he was a seven year pro career and was already a world heavyweight champion professional so i don't think you know you can say he wasn't a celebrity either you know he wasn't like early early uh cassius clay he was already a world phenomenon at that at that time i just wanted to add that to the context you know i think there's also something interesting here where when i watched the whole special let me say i i planned this before i had watched the whole special which i watched about an hour before we started recording today and i thought i was gonna have a lot i was it was gonna be a lot more cut and dry than i feel now and i'm just working through my feelings kind of life with you guys but what became clear as i watched the whole special was that he was making a point about the relative value of kind of symbolic performative gestures versus one's kind of sincere commitment to the substantive rights of a given community and i was reflecting on you know the way that he you know calls women [ __ ] and you know uses the n word a lot and you know is generally irreverent and that has been a part of his comedy from the beginning and something that nobody really seems to think means that he is you know anti-woman per se in the same way that some of his jokes about um trans people have been described as transphobic and i think it's because on some level we understand that he's winking and nodding when he opens with a joke about you know um you know being molested by a priest i don't think anyone believes he was actually molested or that he thinks molestation of kids by priest is okay but we understand that he has a kind of shock jock humor and that he's making people laugh by saying things that are not supposed to be said out loud and it feels like during the course of the special what he's doing is saying i'm gonna continue to do those you know i'm gonna you know fly on the face of controversy and say the things that i know that we're not all supposed to say and articulate a certain discomfort that many folks in the public feel with the pace of change in the world rightly or wrongly and give voice to that at the same time that i reaffirm my commitment to the substantive rights of lgbt people so he has a whole bit about how trans bathroom bill you know anti-trans bathroom bills are wrong in fact someone in the audience starts like clapping when he brings up a trans bathroom building he's like no no actually that is a bad bill and then he tells the whole kind of absurdist bit about how he wouldn't want a trans person and you know a you know trans woman having to urinate at a urinal next to him because that would be absurd now substantively there's a lot of reductive spicy descriptions of trans people throughout but the gist of the joke is i support the substantive right in the in the context of the bill and you know people's right to safety and all these other kinds of things do you think you know it's fair given you know that that kind of like contrast he's setting up is fair that there's a kind of performativity performativity arguably about what we care about with respect to these issues and a willingness to write people off as you know capital t transphobic or capital r racist or capital as sexist or whatever it is depending on the context because of some kind of like growing pains or discomfort with how the world is changing even if they substantively would back various rights and interests of these groups well i don't find um his arguments compelling i think that if he says he's against these bills he wouldn't be telling the kinds of jokes that he's telling and one of the and i think it's a very different dynamic to think about how he's talking about a joke about molestation he's not making fun of people who are molested in that joke i think he's sort of making fun of the people in power negatives and the molesters the church or these institutions that protect them here he's actually really going after the people who are in the crosshairs right now and it's an extremely difficult and painful time to be trans there are all these bills around the world and he's adding fuel to that fire i think um in terms of separating him out of that argument and as he brought up earlier a hierarchy of oppression which he has made it really difficult because he's already coding being lgbtq his wife he's not even thinking about the intersectionality of being both of these identities which many people are um but there is like a complex of performativity i would say taking him out of it that does happen in some of these organizations like glad their organizations you know the human rights campaign they would give awards to uh andrew cuomo they gave awards to michael bloomberg right michael bloomberg was um the mayor of the city of new york and you know they clapped and cheered and gave him their number one ally award because he was for gay marriage um at the same time he was you know running the nypd which was the biggest threat against two lgbtq people um particularly those of color lgbtq people broadly are poor and are affected by uh police and incarceration and poverty and bad health care um even across class lines but particular across racial lines but particularly amongst lgbtq people of color um and so some of these organizations will praise people like that some of them praise caitlyn jenner and i do think that's extremely wrong you don't want to be praising someone who's against not only lgbt rights but who's vehemently against immigration and racial justice rights because they are also they're doing the same kind of erasure i think that dave chappelle is doing they're performing an allyship with someone based on one identity but they're ignoring that that person is rich in white of a high class status at the expense of thinking their positions could be very bad for the majority of people who are lgbtq and something like that happened with kevin hart ii kevin hart did lose his acting gig at the oscars and i should say i'm not particularly a fan of either of kevin hart or dave chappelle but i remember writing at the time when he lost his job he was he was um very helpful in the idea of the black homophobe and again sort of saying like you're either black or you're lgbtq and kevin hart was unapologetic about the things that he had said about gay people he would not back down from it and there were like other awful things that he had said um that that did not get the organizational uh attention that that did and i do think when gay inc does that i think that they are wrong they should not be holding up some celebrities and punch and you know trying to um take action against other celebrities if they have nothing to say about racial justice and if they have nothing to say about economic justice and a lot of those gay organizations don't take positions on those things they don't take positions on immigration on medicare for all on things that really would help lgbt people and so they just kind of pop up in these uh moments of pop culture you know pylons and so people don't take them that seriously but that's but that's the argument right like the i think the the argument what what he's trying to expose here arguably and obviously you don't have to agree that he's done so effectively is that there are a lot of people who are very mad at him right now people who did not support let's say the medicare for all candidate who whose medicare for all bill would have made it so that trans people could get gender affirming surgery right who thought it was more important for bernie to put pronouns in his bio than to actually have health access for vulnerable populations who thought it was more important for hillary clinton to be a woman than to be equivocal for her to be unequivocal about the height amendment right and on and on and on down the line and you know we're all black here so we are all very familiar with the idea of someone who is going to like say the right thing you know put a black square in their bio or whatever hashtag black lives matter but at the end of the day i have no commentary about joe biden's history of uh pumping up the carceral state who has you know has never had a black person over for dinner or slept over their house or used their bathroom like like and i feel like there was something what i didn't expect to get from the special despite all of the legitimate criticisms is this very strong theme coming out about the substance versus the superficial and you know in his own crude way when dave chappelle says like he calls himself a turf like he and it's clear when he defines turf and then defines his beliefs that he doesn't actually think he's a turf but he's saying okay fine i'm not afraid of the label but i'm then going to go tell a joke about you know you know i'm jealous of glory holes and i want to try one out he says it much more vulgarly as you can imagine but like he's willing to kind of say i will support a bill he tells a long anecdote at the end that we should get to about a trans friend of his name daphne like all of these things like at the end of the day i'm willing to put my body on the line i'm willing to do the muhammad ali thing and like go to jail and be and substantively rather than just performatively be a part of this um and you can argue about whether or not he's done enough there also but that there is a gap between people who exclusively want to have this kind of top level conversation about whether i said the right thing at the right time um you know who refused to acknowledge any growth etc and i think when i was reading the responses to these on youtube like watching some of the videos that people had put out there was a huge swath of the country that undeniably is in a very different place than kind of the media sphere about trans issues and i couldn't help challenge myself by asking is a special like this going to help people who might legitimately be transphobic people like the person who woo wooed at his rally to say oh actually japel is not transphobic he shut me down when i tried to woo at his rally and i should support the basic rights of these populations trevor i want you to give you a chance to get in here uh okay um it was kind of weird because there's so many things said that i kind of want to respond to and everything so i was just gonna back up and then work my way to the current question sure the way my brain works i'll forget all this stuff if i don't uh say it but like you know with the in-group thing right like okay let's say he's not a black um crackhead but crack is a scourge that disproportionately affected the black community and the effects of it are like still being felt so to me it's like it would be like if a gay comic was uh had a had a age character or something you know and that that gay comic may not have aids but by making a mockery of a condition that disproportionately um affected his group i think he would be kind of you know doing a disservice especially if he's doing it for the laughter of um outgroup people but i mean he he is a descendant of american slavery and he made a joke about reparations you know and the black real world about you know if you live with black people this is what you're going to get now i'm not saying i'm offended by these things but i'm just saying he's always been kind of doing stuff to the point where with this stuff he kind of uh disgusted himself but straight black men die at a crazy rate you know but nobody was saying hey i think dave chappelle's jokes about you know black men that they're degenerates that you can't live with they'll have sex with your girl and you know they're prone to being crackheads and you know they can't if their justice claim is joke and if they got reparations they would spend it on buying babies and shooting dice no one said hey this is gonna encourage people uh to kill more black men you know so i just i found it weird this escalation that these jokes were going to make black trans people get get killed because black men have been getting killed and when you look at the black trans death epidemic and you disaggregate like the info um because i went through all the different people and i think in the past year was uh 28 and then i separated out the black people and then the black people the black trans people who were dying um a lot of them it wasn't shown whether they were dying out of explicitly uh transphobic crimes or for other reasons uh some were but um i found most of mostly it was in latin america that they were actually for whatever reason being killed explicitly for um being trans a majority of them were for other reasons but when i checked the neighborhoods that they were killed in it was always poor black neighborhoods where uh straight black men were dying at a similar rate so for me part of the problem that happens here is that it makes me feel like there's this idea that straight black men just die and it's just such a um [Music] default baseline condition that there's a way higher tolerance for it you know to the point that you just kind of it's just something you just try to get under a certain level of control it's not something that you can actually even like if mark fisher talks about capitalist realism and this idea that people can't imagine a world without capitalism i think there's a black male death realism where people just think it's just normal like a win is just are they just killing themselves at a 10-year low that's that's that's good you know so that kind of was a little weird to me but then also like um with all the due respect to dr uh thrasher like dr thrasher keeps saying that uh dave chappelle frames lgbt cuteness as just whiteness but i do think and he might be guilty of not explicitly disaggregating it enough but he does make several things because i was watching it and i took notes and he says things like um he says things like when the white person calls the um cops on him he's talking about a white person that's eating in the same fancy place that a white gay person is eating in the same fancy place that he's eating in and he brings up if it was a black person they would not uh if a black gay person they would not have done that because they know when the cops come the cops aren't going to um see them as different than me they're not going to know which um n word they're supposed to be going out against so i mean he does acknowledge the existence of you know black gays and he implicitly kind of makes clear that he's talking about a certain class demographic and race of gay people i agree that maybe he could have taken more pains to disaggregate it but i think it was there between the lines he also talks about the two black gay men who were with the white trans person and the white trans person is in his face saying we've had decades of struggle and then he looks at the two black gay people like are you going to check this girl like you know and specifically talks about how the trans woman is like kind of like doing the clap accent thing yeah like well who did you get that from black women and kind of challenges this appropriate i mean like you know go ahead sorry oh yeah yeah yeah i mean and and um you know he talks about other things uh along those along those lines he brings up um stonewall and how he thinks like they were writers for um you know the cause and he prefers them but i mean the thing that i got was that he was talking about the people who tend to be the face of you know the gay rights movement and i think he's talking about a certain type of white bourgeois type of gay person and rightly or wrongly i think he's talking about himself as a black man more than himself as a rich guy and i think there's this kind of thing happening where it's being treated as if he's talking about all gay people and trans people regardless of demographic and race even though at times he has um made sure to disaggregate that he's you know talking about a particular kind but then uh is treated as the black stuff just to be about him the baby and kevin hart like three rich black guys and i think it's not quite that i think he's trying to talk about black people as a whole and the other thing i want to respond to is that i've seen multiple people keep saying that he lacks the intersectionality that he um has is erasing black gay people and black trans people as gay and trans people and you know like i said i don't disagree because i feel that i mean i don't agree fully because i feel like he did implicitly do that at several points in the special but i think even if he didn't do that and he didn't do it at this aggregation which is um fair i feel like a lot of the critics are doing the same thing in reverse and not realizing it because they're erasing to me black gay and black trans people as black people because who's the same when he's talking about how bad black people have it and he's saying all these about black people why don't these same people who complain that he's um um assuming that all gay people are just white and don't include black trans or black gay people why aren't why are they assuming that when he says black people he wants more rights for black people he's not including black gay and black lgbtq in that and i think in a way they're kind of mirroring the same uh intersectional invisibility that they're um critiquing that he's doing in the gate they're in the gay direction like i feel like when he's talking about black people how far they have to come he's including the black gay and black trans people because white gay and white trans people they're not dying at the same rates that the black trans people are dying but um black straight men are are that like their plight is much more similar to the life not mattering and the victim of crime and poverty much more similar to what a black non-gay non-trans person goes through than what a gay white person or trans person is is going through so um yeah i just wanted to get those points out before i um yeah that was helpful dr thrasher yeah i have some things to respond um first of all i don't i don't agree that he's not a terror for certainly that he's not projecting turf ideology which is extremely dangerous first comes from england and he's had lots of uh particularly in england jk rowling but in the newspaper i used to work in the guardian it's a very mainstream position and various for people who don't know what a turf is can you define it yeah so the term turf stands for trans exclusionary radical feminists and it comes from um it it circulated more in england initially but it's the idea that women who say we're feminists and we don't want trans women who we don't think are real women as part of our movements it's a very essentialist way of thinking and it's an essentialism where you say that um the characteristics of life are very quantifiable and put people in a social category are extremely dangerous it's the same thing as using calipers to decide what someone's race is or saying that you know skin tone alone determines someone's race when race is a social con construct and gender is a social construct um and so turfs are very transphobic and they've had a lot of room in england but they've got a lot of circulation amongst mainstream white liberal women in the united states as well um certain turfs as well and so i think particularly when he says trans people are like the turfs look at trans people the way black people look at people in blackface and that i find extremely offensive and dangerous this idea that blackface and minstrel see which is white people mocking black people hysterically has nothing to do with trans people who are understanding and living out their true identity in terms of black lgbt people i very much disagree with patrick um that we are erasing um ourselves black queer trans people i don't know any other black um and queer trans people who've been talking about the special over the past few days who feel like chappelle is speaking up for jones piece and gq is really good at writing about that i've been i've been reading other pieces as well and um i i just don't i i don't find that a legitimate argument that that he's speaking up first as well i find that he's being very mocking and very not new patrick but dave chappelle um being very mocking and dismissive a trevor i'm sorry i also don't think it's the onus on the people who are in the most defensive position to speak for everyone i deal with this a lot with israel and the bds movement whenever people say well why are you know why is the bds movement singling out the state of israel well because it's a movement that comes from the palestinians in that part of the world who wanted to have a social movement that would defend them from the position they're in i similarly don't feel like it's up to trans people to feel like they have to speak for everyone when they're in this very defensive position right now having so many bills about them in so many states in the us dealing with so many things around the world but in terms of the point that you were bringing up about um [Music] black queer and trans people not caring about other black lives that is simply not true i've been reporting on the black lives matter movement pretty much since uh its inception which evolved around um in florida why am i forgetting his name i want to be clear i didn't say that i think black gay or trans people don't care about other um black lives okay if if it communicated that way that wasn't what i what i meant to say so the beginning of the thank you for for the being of the black rights movement uh which originally organized around trayvon martin in florida and that's where the three black women um who at least one of them identifies as queer if not two of them in ferguson around mike brown which i did lots of reporting 2014 2015 almost all the organizers were queer or trans that that were doing the the bulk of the organizing that i was reporting on um and in the movement for black lives over the past year including the the uh rally that happened outside of the brooklyn museum where 15 000 people came for black lives that was organized by black trans people so black queer and trans people are trying to bring together a better life i think for black americans and black people around the world more broadly they're not entirely caught up in celebrity culture they're not coming from the same organizational structure as an organization like the human rights campaign or glad one of these places that is very involved with hollywood and celebrities they do have a very good class analysis they understand the role of police brutality and they organize these things like that march of fifteen thousand people like the uh alternate gay pride that happened last year which was a gay pride parade dedicated to black lives and against police brutality um and so i don't find that the the offense that they are taking around transphobia that is intercepting with an extremely dangerous point around transphobia right now um is fair i'm not saying that there isn't systemic racism against all black people there still is but i think in terms of messaging it is much more difficult in popular culture news and government to explicitly say that you're against black people and the segregation of black people of course uh covert discrimination still happens but the overt stuff is not said the same way but the overt stuff is really happening around trans people right now so i understand why they are organizing in fact i mean look here here's the thing like the whole problem here is that it's an oppression olympics game which shouldn't be played in the first instance but it does feel like okay you have all of these voting rights bill you know all this legislation aimed at preventing people of color from from voting you also have these trans bathroom bills and prohibitions against students from competing and gender segregated sports and all this stuff both things are happening at the same time so it does give me pause when there's an argument made one way or the other that it's harder to discriminate against black people publicly than it is to discriminate against trans people like obviously i think that on some like basic level we have loving virginia i mean there's like you know the we we fought a civil war there's been a civil rights movement certain things have been enshrined into law but it the would you agree with me that at core to a lot of this is this claim and i saw this in another podcast about the subject another youtube video where they were arguing that in today's world there's a certain currency to victimization victimization is currency they argued in the in the public sphere rightly or wrong that's not to say that the victimization isn't real or substantive or anything like that but that that is part of what's driving this oppression olympics and that ironically even though dave chappelle seems to be critiquing that reality he is himself fighting for a kind of premier victim status for black people because he feels like people don't care enough that he was allowed to crap on black people for the first half of his career and everybody thought it was completely fair game but suddenly what he does about other groups that is offensive well i think and again i'm not someone who's watched dave chappelle closely throughout his career my father who's passed away you know was from a certain civil rights generation where he's like nothing we are not listening to anything in this house that is derogatory to black people rap hip-hop comedy that was like kind of the household that i was raised in um i don't think it needs to be an oppression olympics and i do think you know the point you're bringing up about voting rights so people are largely against bills that are getting rid of voting rights they understand there's a racial dynamic it is not called a bill against black people it is called you know a bill against voting rights which brings together a broader coalition the trans stuff is explicitly talked about as being anti-trans but i also want to say in so much of my reporting around many issues education reform voting rights um environmental stuff there are queer and trans people in them they are the leaders even when they're not saying i am queer i am trans they are the ones who are so affected by who are doing lots of the organizing so that's part of the point i was making right like because we have had civil rights movement because you know racial identity is legally protected and constitutionally protected you cannot make a law that says i want black people not to vote without it getting struck down the same thing is not true of trans people because they don't have the same protected class status people are arguing for it under you know like people are making the case but at present you can have a more explicit bill for trans so that is of course there are like meaningful differences that are created by our historical legacy but that doesn't necessarily mean that the impetus or the um apathy that's driving any of the either of these cases is necessarily neutered i don't think you would argue you know i think that people would be mad if you argue that these voting rights bills were racially neutral or weren't motivated by the political reality of conservatives knowing that if more black people vote their political destiny is less tony no i wouldn't disagree with that but i'm saying that there is a difference in the way that it's narrated and partially because of that i think it brings in liberals who feel like it's sort of an all you know all votes matter approach they sort of see all people need to be able to vote and so they they have more buy-in into it but um so many places i've reported on these kinds of things a lot of that organizing is being done by queer and trans people even when like that's not the identity that they're putting forward as the primary reason why they're doing the organizing and i think similarly to the way that the united states broadly leans on the african-american experience you know to as biden would say you know save the soul of the nation stuff like that um that that we look to as a nation to the experience of african americans in all kinds of walks of life the environmental movement feminism the gay rights movement a lot of that is drawn on what's happened previously from the civil the racial civil rights movement of the early and mid 20th century and i think we're at a time right now where a lot of uh contemporary organizing including the black lives matter movement is itself been deeply affected by the fights for queer and trans rights and a lot of those people are are organizing those campaigns so even in times when that's not the identity they're putting forward and i think you raise a very interesting point that seems he's trying to position himself as the ultimate victim in these olympics but we don't need to be fighting with each other about this and the people who are even though it's like a word that that gets a lot of derision these days people who live aware of and in practice of their intersectional identities i find are actually the ones who are often the best at coalition building the combi river collective statement very clearly says they don't want uh they want a world where black women are going to be free because if black women are free that means all the other berries oppression have been dismantled and they say very clearly we want to work in coalition with other people to this goal and i find that many more trans and queer activists are in that spirit than they are reflective of someone like caitlyn jenner or someone like you know glad this media organization that does take a very myopic view of gay rights and does not look at what's happening broadly economically and racially that's affecting queer people yeah i want to bring this back to the episode a little bit because you raised the turf um point dr thrasher and i will say i do think that that was the dumbest part of the special by a long shot and there's a good reason why there's a lot of negative tension on it because his knock down drag out like his his like period on the end of the sentence that he thinks is making some slam dunk point is to proclaim gender is a fact and this gets big applause and he does the whole kind of like men having babies that's insane don't you know that every person in the planet has to come out you know pass between a woman's legs to be born and even if i you know the i don't want to be making his arguments for him but the if he had said you know biological and i know i know i know this is about to be real turkey but even if he had like biological sex you know if he had said okay some people are born with ovaries and some people are born like and obviously there's intersex people and all kinds of things on the spectrum but even that would have been firmer ground than gender which nobody is arguing is a fact like gender by definition is socially constructed like there's not even an argument about that and i don't know lots of people argue for that okay but that's just stupid if you want to talk about sex just talk about sex like there's a there's a reason the word gender was invented like separate and apart from sex you know like i don't i don't even know like so i i i don't know why he didn't have a copy editor i don't know if he was going to go this hard in the paint and claims to have you know friends in the lgbt community like that wasn't even just a place for him to to start but i i am curious about this because it does keep coming up that it this is the conversation we have more broadly i have about the left more broadly that there are these nor uh typical i should say these kind of like generalized ways that most people understand the world rightly or wrongly and changing norms creates dissonance it was true with racial integration it was true with women in entering the workforce it's true it was true with gay marriage and it's true now you know trans people are at the you know front edge of cultural change right now and are drawing a lot of focus for that reason and when we talk about this on the left in other contexts and some people are mad at me about this in these other contexts as well there is this question of the difference between kind of a cancellation or a writing off and a kind of you know they're not there yet but we're going to work with them and get them there and this is a conversation we had with india walton um the soon-to-be god-willing mayor of buffalo who's facing this recall effort um who is a socialist and a leftist in all these things but it's like look sometimes when i go into these spaces and i'm trying to talk to people about you know republicans cutting their medicare or whatever it would be not productive to the goal here for me to go in and introduce myself by my pronouns which is going to derail the conversation into a conversation about pronouns which is not necessarily what i'm trying to sell politically right here in this moment and i'm curious about the extent to which fighting on there is kind of an unwillingness sometimes in some quarters to even acknowledge that dissonance and the dissonant in a dissonance that is comes out in his special as a weird focus on the genitalia of trans people and stuff that that dissonance may be something different than transphobia all right um i wouldn't use the word dissonance i would use the word conflict the conflict can be very productive i don't think anybody should feel that they have to be a model of um [Music] respectability politics to partake politics i don't think people who are black should feel like they shouldn't be in political spaces because the conversation might become about race i don't think that people who are trans or queer should feel like that they have to hide who they are there are times that you may not have any sense who they are there are times that you may know very clearly that someone is queer trans no one should give a [ __ ] they should feel no sadness combustion or shame about being who they need to be and if they need to be vocal about it and have people understand where they are in relation to each other that's fine um i don't think that it has to be in either or and i certainly don't think that trans people are unaware of the need for things like medicare for all trans people are the most affected by health disparities that make them have uh more difficult and sometimes shorter lives um you know martin luther king there's going to be and maybe i mean we'll have to see it before we judge but it may be the first good thing obama has done in his post-presidency uh obama's producing a film about the life of bayern rustin and rustin was around with king and he was raised uh quaker and was the you know socialist outland the poor people's campaign was a big part of the southern christian leadership uh conference and planning the march in washington and he always lived as an out gay man and people wanted king to jealousy because they said this can sink our movement and king didn't i mean king wasn't you know waving a rainbow flag and they didn't exist yet but you know king wasn't an outnow gay rights activist but he also um refused to jettison this person who was one of the most intellectually important people to that campaign i think narrative about him not being able to speak at the march in washington or some some event that he was precluded from because of some well he speaks at the moment he reads the 10 demands that they have including the the demand for two dollars an hour which would be the equivalent of about 17 an hour now which we still haven't gotten to but yeah he you know he was pushed into the background he didn't get the kind of shine someone like andrew young did um that he probably should have had um but i i i think it's uh a cop-out to say that if we talk about someone's pronouns um to me it's the equivalent of saying if we just talked about racism the right way that people would undo structural racism it's [ __ ] is but is that is that what's being is that what's being said is that a parallel statement you know because as a black person let's say when i was on the trail and talking to in some southern state and talking to some white person i simply led with the issues that i assumed and i also could be assuming wrong but assumed based on sizing someone up we're going to be most germane to their life that doesn't mean i don't care about the other issues it doesn't mean that i'm going to downplay or not fight as hard for those other issues but person by person i think this is i think the point india walton was making person by person if i'm in a uber in iowa talking to a white person on the way to the bernie rally and they ask well why where are you going and i say a burning rally and they go pift and i make my pitch i'm going to say well let's talk about your rights here as an uber driver or lack thereof let's talk about why it is that you're needing to supplement your income let's talk about if your health care costs are high and if you have you know family members on one of these government pro you know social medicare medicaid that are worried about not you know having their benefits curbed you know like le let's talk about it and i think the resistance to even doing that sometimes on the left is a little it is interesting and maybe speaks a little to to chappelle's point about the weight that we put on kind of the virtue signaling if you will versus the substantive advocacy and the efficacy of that advocacy i mean you could say well we're going to iowa when we shouldn't send black people there because that might freak them out and that and i'm sure that there are people who have that political orientation as an approach they might say it would be better to have someone who looks like them well don't we say that it's better to send to have like culturally competent people go into minority neighborhoods all the time in door knock isn't that an issue that we talk about in the course of dsa that is not sufficiently representative and that sometimes our community efforts would be more effective if they're the diversity of the organization reflected the spaces that we were in but generally we talk about that about talking to other minoritized people we don't talk about uh minoritized people not being able to talk to white people and we don't and similarly i don't think we should say like trans people shouldn't talk to people right you're right we we don't talk that way but i mean we would say like we want other queer people like when i worked for the bernie campaign i was writing and talking to other queer people that's the direction because i was talking to other members of my community but i was not told that i couldn't talk to the general audience sure i'm just saying that you raised it as a hypothetical that it would be bad to say that we wanted to send only white people to iowa and i'm just saying that we do do that with other yeah we do it with minoritized group we don't deal with dominant groups i don't think right but my point is that there's a perfectly legitimate argument that wishes in iowans to iowa and iowans are mostly 90 white right so that mean or you know so yeah you might send a black island or you might send a trans iowan and you might find that that people connect very well but again like i i reject the premise that it's either or that if someone talks about pronouns that it's virtue signaling and they don't care about these other things well not that it is virtue signaling dr thrasher but that which okay would you acknowledge would you agree or not that there are people who are let's say india was saying her the example she gave was an old folks home so would you agree that there are probably a plurality a majority of older people who whatever their feelings about trans people on an individual basis are not on the front edge of that issue are not you know super understand like genuinely under don't do not understand really what this is all about just because it's it's their old dogs trying to learn a new trick well i'll tell i'll say a couple of things one is that um we should never pander to people's prejudices or undersell where they might meet us because we're not sure where they might meet us is it pandering to someone's preferences for india walton to introduce herself as india walton as opposed to hi my name is india walton and my pronouns are she her i don't think there's a problem with either one okay but if she chooses to do the former because in her experiences it leads to a more productive political conversation is that pandering to ignorance or pandering to transpose or pandering to bigots if we're gonna say that that that one must do that i mean people people communicate in ways that are often quite casual and spontaneous so i'm not saying no you must always introduce yourself with your pronouns but if someone feels compelled to do so it's no better or worse than someone who doesn't i don't i don't see that it would be and i certainly would not think that if we have a trans person working on a campaign that we want to tell them you must only identify yourself in a way that we're going to tell you they should be so comfortable certainly but it is it is the case though dr rashford there are a lot of people who are very angry at bernie for not putting his pronouns in his bio even at the same time like there were people who would openly prefer not to vote for bernie because of something like that despite his advocacy his singular advocacy for medicare for all my experience in the campaign and as a reporter before the campaign is that there are people who pressure their candidates to do what they want them to do that doesn't mean that they don't agree with their platform or that they're not going to vote for them you know you know the crap i'm trying to avoid saying her name it rhymes with pill pilafadic but like there are people like that who were like hardcore forewarned bernie sucks screw bernie even though the writing was on the wall warren has a right to stay in and ruin super tuesday like all of that stuff that has real world consequences over a lot of this super i'm not saying the fact of she is not representative of trans people well she's not trans at all that's what that's my point yes that's what i've said i don't know but this is another argument about trying to hold that up it's like but but doctor fashion this isn't an argument i'm making about trans people very few actual trans people are in in the grand scheme of this conversation are part of the conversation just numerically the people who are mad on the internet the people who are like engaged in this conversation are overwhelmingly not trans a lot of the people who are angry about this special are coming are arguing from position of you know quote-unquote allyship and so the question is is are people holding up and i think you know and we could i want to get back to you know some of the specifics of the the show and get you in here trevor but i mean one of the sometimes i'm enjoying listening so by all means and you can stay a little bit longer so maybe if i can trevor i'll keep you after even dr thrasher has to go but the the point um you know he tells an antidote at the end about uh basically a trans woman named daphne who opened for him on a show and she kind of bombed and wasn't very funny but seemed to be in good spirits about it she sits down on the front row while chappelle does his set and there ends up being like some back and forth with an audience member and daphne where she carries a kind of transphobic sexist joke i think it was um some of the audience shouts at her did the cartons match the drapes and the audience is kind of like tense and then she responds honey i don't have drapes that have hardwood floors and everybody laughs and like she's body and great but then he talks about how they had a relationship after the show and i was going to help her with the routine and all of this stuff and then when his netflix special came out the last ones she defended him on the internet got a lot of hate from other members of her community and ended up committing suicide like a few days later and decipher was talking about how we set up a trust fund for her daughter and you know kind of ends on this joke joke i mean you know uh about how she was you know i don't think that she was a member of the trans community she was a member of my community she was a comedian who loved dirty inappropriate humor she would love the jokes that i'm telling about her right now um and i'm the one who stepped up and did the thing when it was important i don't know what trans people did for her maybe they did actually do stuff stuff for her so that's no neither here nor there but again kind of highlighting the idea conceptually of substantive commitment over being upset about you know language uses usage or something like that well i again i do have to go in a few minutes um it is not either or and i don't like this paradigm of saying people either do these things they're substantive or they're all talk and i that part of you know the routine i find very disheartening first of all you can't talk about someone dying by suicide and assign it to any one factor it's not no he didn't in all fairness he says he doesn't know what caused it when he said you know what did the trans community do for her he's also implying that they do nothing for each other and it's almost like he's you know it's like when um you know some white people say like i did this thing for my black friend and nobody in the black community character or why don't black people care about black and black crime right that kind of thing yeah and so that i found like that was one of the things that made me angry is he's implying that trans people don't care about other trans people that they just let each other die when he this you know beneficent millionaire is willing to set up a trust fund for his friend for you know a memorial for their their family of course that's a good thing to do but i really resented the implication that that lgbt people don't do things for each other and particularly trans people trans people are on the forefront of mutual aid dean spade's book about mutual aid is fantastic um they highly have to rely on each other when the state fails them because the state and capitalism have failed them the most and so they do giving circles they take care of one another they share what they have they were the models that the society at large needed to adapt to during the pandemic when the state abandoned so many people um and so i i really that was probably the thing that i found the most distasteful was yeah is implication that trans people don't care about or take care of one another yeah the daphne thing it had potential but he really just did not he took it too far yeah i think he felt the pressure to keep uh undercutting any moment of sincerity with some um edginess and i wish he kind of just stayed in the sincere space a lot more i think it ended up working against him for the sake of some cheap laughs yeah um dr thrasher i really appreciate you hanging in there for some of my no kind of frustrating devil advocacy here um can you tell people where to find you and your work and t if you don't mind hanging around just for a few more minutes i want to just cover some of the other aspects of the special sure no problem um thanks so i um i teach at northwestern university where i'm the daniel renberg chair i focus on social justice um and particularly on the lgbtq community i'll be doing a couple of public events on zoom um and i'm finishing my first book the viral underclass which we talked a bit about the last time i was on it's going to come out hopefully late next summer i tweet at thrasher xy and um thanks for having me on and the last thing i'll say is it's never either or all people who fight for social justice do so on many fronts and i find the ones who are willing to put themselves into uncomfortable spaces or with undercover conversations are often also the ones doing the most um substantive movement based work as well and that's a really important point and thank you for closing nice meeting you dr thrasher take care nice to see you too take care here's a question that we probably should have asked up top did you enjoy it did you think it was funny um i will say this i enjoyed it a lot more than i thought because the way it was preemptively framed i don't know if this is your take on it i expected it to be like people were making it sound like it was in the net and it had like no jokes and it was just going to be him ranting and i mean there was a decent amount of jokes in there you know whether they were in good taste or not is you know up to you but one thing i found interesting from looking at all the preemptive framing was the only thing people were litigating was whether or not he was homophobic or transphobic but i saw despite some things that might be legitimately argued to be homophobic or transphobic a lot of probing questions about white lgbtq racism at several points that people either just ignored or kind of minimized to get back to litigating whether he was homophobic or transphobic so i feel like the discourse that happened after this and reading the characterizations of it before i actually saw it kind of proved one of his points that people kind of care more about in this current mainstream discourse the um [Music] homophobic or transphobic issue than the racism issue and something else that i um like one thing i want to clarify uh and i hate to like respond to dr thrasher after he's gone because then it doesn't give him a chance to clarify whatever but it's just he had to go ahead i have no choice but um he responded to my point about um that i think people are erasing the uh intersectionality in the word black by thinking that he can't be talking about black gay and black trans people you know uh he took that to mean that i was saying that i think black gay and trans people are doing that and that they don't care about other black people but i was talking more about the mainstream discourse and the um white gay allies yeah the white allies and i wasn't talking about the black trans people and i think one of the things that kind of gets lost in examining this is that in de chapel's own words he seems to think that this is a body of work that has to be taken together and at one point he even references the lines from the other three works to kind of show that he's been building toward you know um this which is the finale like you know you take it all together to get the context and part of the reason why i think it's um one shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that he's including uh black gay and black trans people when he's talking about black misses and one of the previous specials he makes a point and again this is one of those points where whether you agree with it or disagree with it i saw very few people in the mainstream discourse willing to engage in a good faith where he was saying um if it was only non-white people or women who wanted to be um trans but white men didn't and particularly white privileged men didn't want to be trans as well people kind of wouldn't care i wouldn't be getting all this traction and in a way that's a very intersectional point because he's trying to say that the whiteness and the maleness and the privilege you know works together with being trans to get a kind of different result in the society you know that people will take it more seriously and will get a lot more rights but if uh white powerful um you know bourgeois people weren't interested in this as well mr society would probably you know consider it mostly like a quirk or still something something weird and i thought that was a very intersectional uh point and maybe it's not one that kimberly crenshaw would make but in the broad idea of intersectionality i think it counts but um to me that evidence is that he thinks the blackness of the black gay and trans people plays such a role that it lumps him in with the rest of black people like he's saying in that in that joke whether you agree with a joke or not he's saying that he thinks of the black gay and trans people on the side of the marginalization issue as him as a black person you know as opposed to so so yeah that that's why i think it's you can't just quickly dismiss that he does not think of black gay and trans people when he brings up uh the minimization of of blackness because he's explicitly mentioned at the beginning what i thought was interesting was that there there was a thread of kind of class analysis throughout this that i did not expect from him so a lot of people were quoting his opening line about how hey i'm rich and famous as like him being just a jerk but what he was actually saying is i'm rich and famous so i haven't experienced covid the way that most normal people have and i hope you guys are doing okay like when i started watching the special after having all of the presumptions that i had based to your point on how it had been framed i had very i had a very negative know the negative views going into it i didn't enjoy the last special i i found it to be difficult to watch and had to like start and stop a couple of times i confess that i'm not a long-term chappelle fan when people were really hype about it in college and like we're watching it in like common spaces on campus i was very uncomfortable i was uncomfortable with all these white mixed-race harvard kids yoking it up and like being one of the only few black people in the space and like most of the black people also seem to not have any problem with it i will say but i remember being uncomfortable about it from the get-go so i've never been some big fan but i from the get-go watching this special it became very clear that there was a significant gap between how it had been represented versus what it was that's not to absolve it of being problematic exactly it is still problematic but the fact of the gap to me it's like well let's just have a good faith conversation about it because otherwise you're proving his point in these ways and let's just not feed that beast if we disagree with the arguments that he's making that was a feeling i had like there were so many good faith uh lines of attack that could be made on that special because i think there are generally problematic parts right that it was kind of bothering me that people were bringing up like you know uh someone was made a think piece uh i think there was akilah hughes saying that uh chads are gonna go out there and start killing trans people because it is special and it's like okay you know it's a bit uh you know like why do you have to go there there's so much on paper that we can talk about that was actually said like this and then you know i mean i agree with a lot of things that you say but uh to add one more thing about the um why i say it's about the white allies and the uh white mainstream game movement and not me disparaging black gay and trans people when i say what i said is if you look at the people who are pushing the black trans narrative you know of a black trans epidemic like the hardest you know it'll be like uh hrc that organization and one things i noticed they always have like a yearly report and shows all like the trans people that died and they've started like really once like this thing about how a disproportionate amount of them are like black and poor happen they started doing all this stuff on their site where they talk about you know black trans epidemic how hard they have it intersectionality and stuff like that and they're kind of using the black trans people as a way to kind of engender a lot of sympathy for their cause and to fundraise off of it and all this stuff so i'm like okay that's good but when you look at the site and i've been looking at the site for like years now and i look at the part that says artwork and whenever you go to the site it's stuff like getting gay and trans people in college and professional sports electoral stuff bills you look at the bills and not everybody has to do with poor black people yeah yeah homelessness a lot of yeah uh and if you think i'm lying you can go to yeah you can go to their website and see everything that they that they do you know talking about trying to push the equality act and most of the stuff in the equality act is uh none of it is really about something that will help uh black trans people because the black trans people are dying in places where just black people are dying you know you know what i mean it's always poor people you know i mean there is that poor black people yeah yeah so so let's finish this real quick i feel there's something kind of disingenuous about using black trans people as a way to make the trans plight look extra uh bad because you don't want to just have a movement that's about bourgeois concerns with marriage acts and and and all this stuff i get that but then i want to see you do a lot of stuff for these people you're using to you know and i just don't feel and this feels kind of disingenuous because much like you know bernie people like to point out that if you raise the conditions of all poor people black people will be helped too if you raise the best thing you can do to help poor black trans people to me is to make the life of poor black people in general less of a living hell you know or even if you sincerely just focused on making the lives of poor black trans people not a living hell it would enter to the benefit of poor black people i mean like but it does seem to be like the poor part and the black part are not addressed because i think even if you want to take the cynicism out of it those require structural changes that are a lot harder than for all that it's relevant and important like a marriage bill is right like there's on a certain level in a certain really basic level city citibank you know wells fargo j.p morgan their bottom line is not affected by whether or not gay people can get married it just isn't the same way that having housing as a human right or people being able to leave their jobs because they're not worried about healthcare and security are going to affect the duopoly like the corporate status quo but i do want to come back to this to this uh class point and be specific about it so it opens with us rich and fame i'm rich and famous okay which people misinterpreted and then he goes on to make several other jokes that have as their theme when people get into position of power they act like [ __ ] regardless of who they are right regardless of their previous uh persecuted status so and some people are mad about these jokes too there was a joke about how the black former slave gets a bit of land and by owns slaves gets black slaves there's a joke about um the space jews joke yeah um where he basically tells the story of like what if aliens were really originally from earth and then they leave and they come back and they're like this is ours we're gonna do it with what we want um and he says we're gonna name the story space jews and that's a call back to a story he told earlier that basically made the same implications about how that's what's going on in israel you can say what you want about the substance of the joke but with when that is such a steady theme throughout it does start to feel like he's he is saying something that i think is not entirely dismissible about us confusing rhetoric for power i mean it shouldn't be entirely dismissible but i think in practice we're finding out it's surprisingly dismissible the way people are just not talking about it so yeah i agree i mean it's his fault like maybe he wants people to take him seriously then he shouldn't like talk about you know meaty dicks at the urinal or whatever he wants to say like that's on him yeah and there's a lot of unnecessary poking of the bear yeah he's knowingly doing like he's he's clearly a troll and i think it works against him a lot at the time like he's clearly getting off on saying certain things you know at the most poignant part you know he will like you know throw in something really truly yeah yeah so i thought that was a great point the one where he said even the white people even the white slave one was like yo you gotta chill like i think that still happens today where i feel like sometimes like these larry elder types sometimes say stuff where you see even the white people have like pulled back or like with candace owens uh turning point usa had to just be like okay chill like we didn't want you to go that far here to be a shield but uh this shield has holes in it we're gonna get i'm gonna catch some strays you have to go so yeah i totally agree with everything that that you said and it's funny because in this discourse now if you're not all the way on one side then people assume you're all the way in the other so i've been fielding a lot of comments and things where people think i'm just uncritically championing uh dave chappelle and just giving a rubber stamp to every joke that uh he said and it's not like that it's not like that at all i totally think there is a lot of room for improvement and i think he ended on the type of note that he should have threaded the special with more where he said i'm not gonna do these jokes anymore unless i'm 100 sure that we're laughing together you know right and like that's a great sentiment but like you did this whole special and say that at the end and many of the things that you said in the special obviously don't have people from the targeted communities laughing with you so it just seems really interesting it sounds nice but in practice it did you really live up to it it's not it's almost a get out of jail free card you know like i appreciated the sentiment but i think it would have been better threaded that sentiment threaded throughout the uh special a little bit more but i think there's like a little vengeful side to the special as well like i think the hypocrisy has been kind of getting him upset and i think that run of and you've uh touched on this during this interview and i totally agree with you that there seems to be a little bit of that residual bitterness of the legacy of his old show and what he feels like um the disservice he kind of did like i think he feels kind of hoodwinked by privileged whites like that he thought they were laughing with him and they were really laughing at him and he's i think there's a part of wanting to give people a taste of their own medicine but i think a big thing that's missing from all these specials i think will help a lot is he doesn't really go after like the person that you're talking about in the harvard dorm that was laughing and making you uncomfortable like yeah a lot of these um white gay white trans people are white and behave in a lot of the hypocritical ways that white people do but i've yet to see you say something that's gonna get like the anti-woke white reactionary male crowd really mad like you know and that's who i feel where the biggest culprits of using shows like the chappelle show the boondocks or all these things as a license people love to watch the boondocks in the common spaces i'm like why are you yeah let's just watch this in private yeah but they like using a black medium to um do the type of menstrual c that they can't get away with you know from from a white person and i wish in his specials he had some more smoke for them and i think it would balance things out a lot more i think i i agree with a lot of his points about white gay and trans racism and i disagree with some of them but the one thing i do think is regardless of what proportion i agree or disagree there's a disproportionate amount of time spent on them when i think the biggest culprits were you know the the cis straight white men bros who just really got off on thinking they had a pass to say uh the n word the same people who love the old chris rock uh [ __ ] versus black people joke you know that type of person and i i hope if he comes back to stand up comedy he does a special that's as scorching to them as he's done to some you know other groups yeah yeah i mean it does you can't ignore like i was surprised when i heard the joke about like i had to i had to punch this lesbian woman and there's con i mean i'm not saying it's excusable context but it's it makes more sense in context than what i just said um and i'm hoping it's exaggerated i want to look it up i only just saw it before we recorded so i didn't have a chance to get the context but yeah i mean the the the bit is that he was at a club or some place and he made small talk with some women there and it turns out you know she was a partner of this lesbian woman who kind of stepped to him and was like stop talking to my girl and was looking for a fight and he didn't realize she was a woman which is hilarious to dave chappelle lol and um you know she when he did he changed his tone of voice and took a step back and was like okay we're obviously not going to fight but she persisted in getting aggressive with him and she he like changed his voice and like said to her i think he said as a pimp would say you know step you better watch yourself but here's the thing like no one's mad about the about him making fun of the idea that like pimps abuse sex workers yeah do you mean like nobody's mad about that nobody's mad about the you know the priest molestation joking you can't ignore it the the the hypocrisy like the differential anger metrics here are difficult to ignore and that's to say like everyone should be mad at everything like that's fine i mean people still laugh at uh is wayne brady gonna have to smack a [ __ ] from the first uh series you know when brady was dressed as a pimp and the humor is that he's gonna smack his hose yes he says [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] all the way throughout and i was reflecting on like am i offended when he's like referring to him as [ __ ] and like if i'm not is this internalized misogyny is this my problem like is it different than when he says the n word which i also don't care about yeah i i i i don't know how to answer that like if you ask me do i think that when he says like on some level we live in a misogynist society so the fact that we like there's like an edge and like a funniness to using the word [ __ ] wouldn't it wouldn't exist if we didn't live in a society that was like misogynistic like if the word had like no power or no edge he wouldn't be using it but do i think that it is literally a manifestation of like misogyny in any meaningful way not exactly i think he's just being an edge lord yeah yeah and a particular type of edge laura like he's a gen x edge lord i felt like gen x and elder millennials a lot of them and it's funny i think a lot of those gen x edge lords have kind of woken up to like okay this is just not funny anymore so now sarah silverman's talking about face when she used to be one of those you know female chauvinist pigs like i'm gonna out frat bro the bros you know and people like amy schumer um you know chelsea handler like they've all kind of realized hey that time of you know trying to be more of a um white [ __ ] bro than the actual bros that thing is dead but i think chappelle's richness and his um social bubbles have kept them way too stuck in that gen x specific edge lord type i mean he spends all this time hanging out with like joe rogan and and old rappers and you know at the end of the show they show the people yeah celebrity friends and it's like okay there's not like a millennial in this really i said maybe chance the rapper has that but yeah i'm like yeah he's doing a podcast with talib quality like he is you know because because i'm gen x and i always think but i'm an elder millennial yeah but i think like uh you and i based on uh what we've had to do uh have been exposed to a lot of different viewpoints and age groups and you know i'm sure you've got to do a lot of uh you know gen z outreach and everything yeah and i've had to grow like i have been confronted with the fact that i my beliefs are retrograde like my my previous beliefs are retrograde you know we just recorded an episode with my best friend from college who didn't come out until i graduated law school like four years after college and because that was the world we lived in you know what i mean that's not an excuse but like i sometimes i feel like there's a unwillingness to even acknowledge that the pace of change is gonna like causes dissonance and as someone who has felt dissonance like i feel like even acknowledging that i have felt dissonance means that i am like marked you know with the market cane or something you know like it's so humid and that's part of why i have empathy when i go into other spaces like that affect me when people like why are you so like willing to talk to racists and stuff like this it's like well there's a racist racism there's someone who just like uses the wrong lingo and isn't up to facts and like i i'm sensitive i mean there have been words that five years ago i didn't know was on slurs and people told me you know online you know in old tweets and stuff and i didn't i didn't know but it's like the thing if i wasn't on twitter was it the things that people said as a matter of like like nobody like these genders need to under like gen xers genzirs and this is not an excuse but like the reality of the world is that like gay jokes were completely above board like 10 years ago like not that long ago like no hesitation in movies and books go back and watch gilmore girls and it's not pretty even like a woke show like that you know remember john remember jon stewart he was a uh awoke a proto-work paragon and he had the chief justice chick with dick's uh daily show joke i don't remember that oh what i remember they brought it back when he was doing the rounds a year or two ago to promote something uh yeah yeah he uh he was making fun of dennis kucinich and i'll give dennis because dennis kucinich is a rare example because he i think he's older than gen x and that dude was way ahead of the curve but he was talking about trans rights and you know having a trans supreme court justice in like the 2000's i think i think that's what it was and jon stewart was mocking him about how ridiculous it was and goes you know what are we going to do uh chief justice chicks with dicks and the crowd loved it this is the crowd of npr tote bag loving uh you know latte sipping liberals and they're just they joke killed you know and it wasn't that long ago it's crazy yeah i mean what do you think about this question of if there are some genuinely objectionable parts like i don't think there's any getting around the absurdity and the offensiveness of gender as a fact and that whole part of the the special like it's just absurd um and it is turfy um like definitionally and what do you think about this argument that you know if there is something that is transphobic and and turf ish turf i don't know what the adjective of how to describe it it makes him a turf it's turf lingo in the show that it's all or nothing because this is a conversation that comes up with you know musical artists and do you still watch the cosby show and all of these other kind of contexts and i feel like it's just this unresolved thing that is affecting part of this debate where obviously some people enjoyed the special for its humor value even even if they would agree with the critiques from the lgbt community yeah i mean in general i think he was kind of overstepping his uh range because to me if you only just learn what turf means right and you claim too man yeah yeah if you want to learn what turf is and you've only just uh learned the proper definition of uh feminism then i'm very sure you have not even cracked open judith butler you know what i mean so yeah yeah i mean you're way way out of your um and here's the kind of audience that i mean look at the audience and there's not a ton of young people there it's you know um again gen x's and elder millennials who remember the old show fondly so there's not really anybody there that's going to um you know pull his coat and tell him anything and then the people who i think are there from those groups are kind of there with a preconceived notion that we're going to heckle him so they're not actually kind of helping him either they're kind of making him dig in his um heels so yeah i mean i don't know how to get him out of his bubble you know i i don't think it's going to be easy he's going to have to actively try to step out of it and it seemed like he was doing that to a degree with that comic that he was um talking about yeah yeah yeah but even then like we said before he's too hamstrung by his need to undercut any moment of sincerity you know with um a joke and i i kind of get it you don't want like the net too where it's going to be humorless and just a one-person um storytelling show but i think there were some moments where he needed to just be earnest and i think it would have done a lot like what did you make of that anecdote he told where he was at a bar someplace rural i forget where maybe was in ohio where he's from yeah and uh a woman at the bar they were having kind of a nice chat she seemed like a sweet lady and she said do you want to see a picture of my daughter and he's like oh i mean no one wants to look at anybody's kids but fine and she showed her daughter and he smiled and said she's beautiful and then she acted this is his telling obviously like kind of offended and was like you know she's trans you know and he was like okay yeah she was trying to trap him basically right i mean again this is his framing and his telling and maybe he's like projecting everything onto this woman but that to me was like really psychologically revealing that he in some ways like he it seemed like he was saying i played the game i said the right thing to this woman you know she showed me her trans daughter and i'm obviously not transphobic because i i said like i gave her a compliment and i moved on and i but he also added what his real thoughts would have been which is that she's uh unattractive right he cannot help himself exactly exactly and i don't know like i don't know what to i don't know what to do with that me neither and i felt kind of funny too because because there were so many like bad faith um lines of arguments i felt like being leveled at him that i kind of felt like i had to front load you know my responses to that but after seeing the special it really wowed me how many things he opened himself up to as far as legitimate critique that i just have seen nobody talk about i think everybody is circulating and using the same clips and they don't want to give the show of you you know what i mean yeah but i mean pirate the show if you have to get get a torrent so you don't give him the but i think people should watch the whole show and i think we would open the door to a much better conversation because i suspect a lot of people who are not talking about it have simply just not seen it because it's not one of the clips that yeah it's very different i'm not saying again it's not better it's just different and the point i went to make about that he was like the the other thing is that the black slave the jews in space the other one was the woman who has to pay alimony that was the third one i couldn't oh yeah that was a good one and and this is interesting because that one i think we can all talk about i kind of think more neutrally because it's not historically i mean women but like it's not one of these more recently historically marginalized groups and people don't come from me for that by the way i understand that women like i understand the equal rights act like i understand like please don't come for me over that but the point is he was talking about a woman who because she made more money was forced to play alimony and joking about how she sounds just like men do you know complaining about uh you know [ __ ] using all my money for vacation or whatever like i don't remember i'm not a comedian and it's interesting to me because it's again this like what he's focusing down on what's the threat that's going through all of these is like i'm willing to say the socially acceptable thing i'm willing to i know i shouldn't hit women women right with the lesbian fight example like i know i'm you know i don't i'm not supposed to be transferred but i know i should use the right pronouns and i do but then sometimes people act in a way that it this isn't his like telling i think what's going on with him psychologically that doesn't where they demonstrate they haven't earned my grace yeah so this woman with her kid like i was nice to you when you still acted like a a b so this like justifies on some level my homophobic my transphobic thought or like i know it's not supposed to hit women but like give me an excuse and i'm gonna do it yeah yeah you know or like you can't be mad at men for complaining about alimony because look the second you are in this situation you're gonna do the same thing or black people in the slaves or the jews and the palestinians and the space people and all of the things i felt very weirded out at the beating of a lesbian joke and i kept thinking who's gonna undercut it somehow in a good way like you know saying like she beat him up or something yeah but then the end of the joke was yeah i just you know gave her a two-piece and a biscuit and that was it i was like okay that's i hope you're exaggerating but even if you're not even even if you are exaggerating if that's not clear you're still kind of making people laugh at a dangerous image and i just found it weird like that there weren't more people saying stuff like he's gonna legitimize men beating up women if um you know they look masculine enough you know and yeah that was strangely one that people did not really um jump on but uh also the story that you're talking about with the bar like all the stories i thought had um interesting nuggets to them but first they were kind of too scrunched together without room to breathe because i feel like you have to get all the trans stuff in there so i think that you have to get all the giant stuff in there yeah exactly i think that's something that made those kind of jokes uh feel incomplete um i don't wanna put words in your mouth but i feel like that's how i felt at least about those i'm not sure if that's the right word for how you felt but i thought there was something there was a germ of something but um [Music] for better or worse it it was kind of truncated and he's identifying points i think a legitimate cultural dissonance or people are working stuff out and working out feelings like that even if i think aren't let's say legitimate or good are very are widely shared and worth discussing but the conclusions that he draws yes are not informative they don't push people in one way or the other or maybe they push people in the wrong way or they're not they're not thoughtful the setup is very clever often and i look i laughed along for much of the lesbian joke until it ended in the i beat up the woman yeah exactly right exactly it's conclusions are very problematic and they might even work better if they left them as open-ended questions because there's some um humorous who do cultural commentary who kind of do that where the joke or the punch line is the open question where it's like you kind of have to stop and go you know and um that's what you're left to work with but i feel like in general he wants to lead people to a conclusion or a teachable moment and he's not always qualified to um either make the right point or make the right point in the most convincing way so sometimes either the point is wrong or the point you can see the rightness of it but he phrases it in a way that is hard to cosign like there's some punch lines in there that i think make a good point but they're full of like uh you know [ __ ] and n word and and and bad trans imagery and it's like i can't even use this joke and the example of the good thread in it because you've just kind of salted the earth of the joke you know with yeah look he obviously thinks that trans people are absurd like he he thinks that something about is absurd right like that's clear from the way that his focus on like you know the visual images that he paints you know the idea of a of a trans man having a squat over a urinal trough yeah to use the men's bathroom like he he is like he's like delighting in the absurdity of it yeah i i think he thinks that being a trans ally is to still think they're absurd but i'm giving them space to be absurd and i'll even entertain them to a certain degree which is still at the end of the day kind of uh still insulting it's like tolerance as opposed to acceptance or whatever that kind of yeah exactly exactly and this is dr thrasher's point which i think was well made that it doesn't have to be either roar and that's what de chapelle sets up like yeah but what he's really saying when he makes it an eye of their aura is i'm gonna go this far but no farther like i'm gonna not be the literal definition of a zealous bigot because i will support your fundamental rights but don't ask me to say it's okay and look he's a grown man like it's a free country he doesn't have to think it's okay but also a lot of people don't have to want to consume his comedy go to his shows and pay him money also so totally and that's something that you know i was telling people who thought i was trying to defend him wholesale where i was like uh no i totally support people's right to not like his jokes or not like him but my only thing is i just don't like a lot of what i feel like these bad faith arguments to do that when there's so many good faith lines of attack but and also i felt weird about how people were very much dismissing the um [Music] racism question and the question of um i mean for all the people who were accusing him of ignoring intersectional analysis i felt like a lot of people were ignoring a lot of his intersectional um analysis of you know how race class level wealth level can intersect with um you know uh homosexuality or being trans to make it i think you're trying to say like it's not always punching punching down um because it's more complicated than just saying uh cis trump's um gay or whatever like you know there's different factors and i would have loved seeing that engaged more in good faith you know as opposed to something he just brushed aside so he can get to um whether or not he's transphobic or homophobic like i kind of give up on the idea of a good faith a totally good faith discussion happening of this special but i also hey we just haven't don't fully absolve him of being part of the reason why it won't happen he's he did a lot to guarantee there would be no good faith discussion of his better points well if you're listening and you know david chappelle feel free to let him know that we can have a good faith conversation about all of this right here on bad faith podcast and also i think you know it's obviously the case that it would be beneficial to have some trans cultural critics in the room as part of this conversation so if you're listening and have any recommendations of folks who could come on and have that conversation i think that would be great as well when the when the whole chapel special plus the dolezal special came out at the same time i don't even know if i want to like put out in the this is out in the world but a kind of pre-super fame contra points and i had a conversation about it and tried to get to the bottom of this question of like tran you know transracialism versus you know transgender identity and we were both stumbling through right me because i'm not trans and she's because she's not black and there was a certain kind of equality and how vulnerable we both were having this conversation that i think made it very useful so i would love to have some version of that conversation which i think is in the in the cracks between the conversation we just had and it was very interesting that conversation was about to explode in the mainstream discourse and a lot of people don't remember this but what uh adolf reid had did a really provocative um uh poking the bear piece about trying to compare transracialism to transgenderism and whatever and regardless of whether one thinks it was right or wrong i think it was set up to be an opening salvo in a very contentious debate that i was so interested in seeing how it shook out but then at that exact moment i remember like right when it was starting to crescendo that rachel dolezal thing that's when the black lives matter um media cycle started in earnest and it kind of got lost and never picked up again so i think it's very ripe to be picked up again by by you guys i would love to watch it if you guys if you guys necessarily volunteering okay maybe it's a premium episode maybe maybe it's good premium content yeah i was trying to volunteer you because i wanted to see it but i understand why you wouldn't want to touch that with a 10-foot pole yeah we'll see i didn't even necessarily want a flag that's out there in the world i think conjure took it down i don't know we'll see i'm going to like furiously text her after this and be like if it's not down scrub it scrub it um anyway thank you so much for spending all this time with me trevor and being for being willing to submit yourself to these kind of uh nuanced conversations difficult ones can you tell our listeners where to find you and you're excellent genuinely excellent i listen to it all the time podcast thank you thank you so much and guys pressure bree to come on i'm trying to get her to come on to talk about of course i'm gonna come out i'm like i'm like 24 episodes now into this horrible season of entreatment because of you i i have to come on because this cannot all be for naught oh yeah yeah that's a good that's a good point you're it's the sun it's a sunk costume yeah yeah but uh yeah finally on champagne sharks anywhere you listen to podcasts you could we have a streaming channel that we haven't been doing recently but we're going to start up but yeah uh go to champagne patreon.com i just go to champaignsharks.com all the links are there sorry if i spent a little too much time looking to the side but i have a second screen like with notes because i have a really bad memory so that's that's what i've been doing there but yeah always happy to come on uh and i think you did a very good job at being very fair and playing devil's advocate i think this is probably the best uh i'm not saying this just because i was part of it i'm saying this because of your contribution and dr thrasher's contribution but this is one of the best good faith attempts at uh discussing this special if not the only one that i found well i appreciate that t we're gonna have to like clip that and put that on the internet so people know to watch um and to all of our listeners a reminder that this is a podcast which we put out one free episode on thursdays and one premium episodes on mondays every week i rarely implore you to consider subscribing mostly because i forget and i'm a bad capitalist but you should definitely consider it so we can continue to do this kind of work and some of the substantive interviews we've been doing i want to flag that we have some really big names coming up including andrew yang giannis verofakis um ro khanna and i'm depending on where the schedule falls some of those are going to be premium some of those are going to be public so make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss all of that plus you can watch full video episodes of podcasts like this one um when you subscribe obviously the free ones are full video on twitter sorry on youtube regardless you you know just google bad faith youtube you can find them there but the full premium video episodes are also available at patreon.com bad faith podcast for five dollars a month thank you and as always keep the day hey youtube don't forget this is a podcast to get full episodes including ones that are behind a pay wall go to patreon.com bad faith podcast to get more episodes please do subscribe to this channel hit the notification bell and like this video [Music]

Channel: Bad Faith

Views: 31,694

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Id: KlaGywEWWuE

Length: 113min 24sec (6804 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 15 2021