Dan Shapiro in a negotiation talk with Keld Jensen

[Music] welcome once again true coming to the table and this time I am very proud and honored to have Dan Shapiro as my guest and I'm sitting here in Scottsdale Arizona and then it's coming in through soon in Boston now obviously preparing these episodes I've been looking into what people I would really love and be honored to talk to and Dan Superior was one of the first one that came to mind because then is a thought leader within the area of negotiation and Dan is being so much incredible important work regarding science of negotiation so first and foremost thank you so much man for participating and taking out the time I know you're very busy gentlemen then could you just introduce yourself just a tiny bit who you are and what are we saved you are representing so first it's wonderful to be here with you I've admired your work for many years now and high quality and speed at which you're able to get good quality books out know so it so thank you i i'm founder and director of a harvard international negotiation program the work we do is primarily focused on how you deal with the emotional and the identity-based dimensions of conflict of negotiation it's really with a sense of trying to understand what is the nature of conflict and the way people negotiate in this modern world what's really important and our research has pointed us toward that human dimension as being particularly important so my work it stretches across the continents working with business leaders working with government leaders helping them negotiate more effectively helping them deal with their differences more effectively what right interesting how many how many years have you been on board doing that then I'm more and more every year oh I my work started when I was about 18 19 years old oh gosh oh I'll age myself but that was at least 30 years back I and doing work in Eastern Central Europe right it's communism spreading ideas on negotiation and conflict resolution and that changing part of the world but what what made you originally get interested in in this field in this science I don't know I I'm some basic level I don't know I can tell you the story that I've come to believe is my truths but I don't know I've always been interested in the psychology of human beings how we operate why we do what we do I remember back to sixth grade doing a little science experiment building a questionnaire to assess who in my class which students were left brain and which students were right brain I've always had that interest in how the mind works and over the years my interest in peace and conflict resolution has just built I I it probably in part comes from my own uh my religious background my back I'm Jewish and you know there's something certainly something there to that notion of never again but I think it's more than that because you know while there are some people with that background who are in this field are many who are not so role to right right very briefly and and I guess you could be talking about that flowers but what what is a negotiation for you and the reason I'm asking is that I sometimes meet people who are saying well you know I only negotiate through three four five times a year and I'm always you know you're kidding yourself if you think even you know it is my belief that we have negotiated since the day we were born and crying for milk yeah and many people unfortunately have not changed their style of behavior very much since then at least some of us you know um but anytime you are interacting with somebody else for some purpose my sense is your negotiate I agree with you completely that means that we are negotiating all the time you and I are negotiating right now so we keep with this subject do you want us to move forward through a different subject but but we're dealing with differences all the time and I think that the recognition of that reality can be very empowering for people because if you know that you're negotiating all the time that means you actually have a lot more control over your outcomes than you might have thought before yeah a very difficult question then are we good at it not only you and I but human beings are we didn't negotiate I have a colleague who has come up with a theory I called homeland ago she and basically suggesting that our route as human beings is negotiating what has allowed us to come out of the caves effectively and to live to this day fairly successfully has been our ability to negotiate okay so I think on some evolutionary level we're pretty good at you know there certainly are way too many human-made man-made deaths in at the hands of fellow human beings but we're not perfect by any means but I do think we've been able to come out of the cave fairly successfully part of the reason that we have survived as a species is from the fact that we have been able to negotiate absolutely yes that's good and it causes a lot of the problems that we see in our world today tribalism I think as human beings expanded in their numbers over time all of a sudden you had competition tribes or a way of protecting your own but there's also a cost to tribalism as well right right get them Dan a lot of work focuses on emotions in negotiation what are some key ideas in in regards to that alright so the question is how do you deal with emotions as you are negotiating and when I started doing this research I realized just how complicated this emotional world is if you're in a business contract negotiation and there are two people negotiating just two people all the sudden you have each person with dozens of different emotions causes of those emotions dozens of different possible things that each person can do more effectively deal with their own emotions and those of the others in other words this field is completely complicated yeah through our research how do we suggest people deal with emotions more effectively yeah my response is you know what don't focus on emotions directly it's a negotiate okay instead turn your attention one step backward toward a handful of basic human motivations that my colleague Roger Fisher and I called core concerns and what we found are that there are five of these core concerns that tend to stimulate a lot of the emotions that come up in our human interactions and if we as negotiators can deal with these core concerns effectively we can stimulate more positive emotions and we build more effective relationships relationships that are conducive to cooperation and to trust your line of work and in just in brief these five core concerns that we found are particularly powerful first and I would argue most important appreciation does each person in that interaction feel heard and understood and valued or unheard devalued misunderstood core concern number two autonomy does each person feel that they have the freedom to make decisions they want to make in the negotiation or do they feel that the other is pressuring them to make a certain decision yep the more I pressure you the less likely you are to actually agree with my suggestions even if they're good okay a third of these core concerns affiliation what's the emotional connection like between the parties in the negotiation are we working together or is it me versus you core concern number four is status and this is a huge core concern in negotiation up who's down and in what sorts of wait you know does somebody walk into the negotiation toss onto the table there new Porsche or Tesla just to let the other side know I'm the bomb here come the boss and what's the impact of that on the other side a nod more often than not moves of status elation of elevation tend to push others away not to push them closer and the fifth of these core concerns is roll as you and I are negotiating what role are each of us playing in the negotiation are we working together as colleagues as partners or I'm I am I the constant accommodator I accommodate to everything everybody else says or does what role are we playing in the negotiation and is it useful and we found that those five core concerns are extremely powerful in the context of negotiation if people deal with those five things well again you stimulate the positive emotions and you get behaviour that is conducive to cooperation right very interesting game very useful now I just picked up one of the five things you mentioned that was status and because obviously we have well that seems very divided in the u.s. now we have a discussion and a negotiation going on about wall and I was just walking and how do you how do we deal with an emotionally charged negotiation like for instance the negotiation between the president and the Democrats is that is that an emotional charge negotiation using I think if you would doubt that this is emotionally charged I agree with you completely and to your point the big question is what do we do when we have these deep divisions within societies in between societies I think people often focus on the content let's try and find some sort of rational solution to the problem of a wall to the problem of economic separation and so on present zone and to me those are important parts of the problem but they're not the court me I think the core of divisive Nisour integration is mindset you know the divisive miss is a mindset problem and the mindset is what I call the tribes effect it's a tribal mindset it's me versus the other I know my opinion is right yours is wrong and crazy and I'm not gonna listen to you I'm just gonna fight for my own perspective that is the tribal mindset right right looking today for example at they at the in the u.s. context within it between the political parties there's a lot of that tribal mindset going on it is we the Republicans versus them the Democrats it's we the Democrats versus the Republicans versus the Republican leadership and if that's the mentality if it's purely zero-sum ya don't know yeah so I from my perspective I think the most useful first step is to help people become aware you are in this tribal mind what you're not immune yeah Dan but but I feel that that that thing has actually increased in recent years I think we see that more today than we did perhaps ten years ago would you agree or disagree with me on that 100 percent 100 percent it was about a little less than 15 years ago Matt I wrote an article for foreign affairs I submitted it support affairs yeah arguing that our world was becoming more and more of a tribal world well okay as much as we're becoming more and more globalized and interconnected economically technologically politically yeah the question in my mind was with all of his globalization in a sense mcdonaldization yeah how do we define our identity yeah how do we define who we are in this massive expanse yeah world of globe and and my fear was that we care and so people will withdraw they move backward toward tribes and my article got rejected you know by foreign affairs it didn't seem you know resonating 15 years ago or 12 years ago but I think that's precisely the world that we've moved into a world that is now conflict now largely defined by tribalist he versus you adversarial self-righteous right and I think tribalism isn't all bad what is the term a tribe is a family it's a place where I feel safe and whether based upon religion or ethnicity or nationality it's a place of security right and the moment you try to attack my tribe or I attack yours yeah that's the moment that identity becomes threatened we move into this tribal mindset us versus that so if we look at the globe in general and I completely agree with you we see that tribe movement is it coming as a kind of a reaction true globalization and that's the reason that we see nations become more focused on themselves boys is it coming from something else we've always had tribal to me my own sense is that globalization has had a substantial impact on this move toward tribalism itself it's almost it's the pendulum swinging in the other direction yeah the question next is now the tribalism is here you see extremism radicalization on so many different levels yeah with what's next you know and in the next 10 to 15 years after tribalism starts to lose some of its global appeal what happens you know so I think that's an interesting question for all of us in the world to be thinking about right then I have an unfair question for you right now how follow the brexit situation 15 sorry big boys question how would you solve the brexit situation in Europe well I mean you know I can't solve it that is for an attempt to solve I think a few things could be useful there one for a lot of those who are in positions of senior leadership to have additional advanced systems on how to negotiate could be quite helpful oh you know more often than not it seems that brexit is a positional bargaining battle it's us versus them when in reality just as with the Republicans and the Democrats in the United States it's not us versus them Europe is going to need to live together and and everybody wants everybody to prosper yeah so first I'd say you know are there ways to infuse some of these insights of ago she ation into the negotiation processes of senior leadership doing that and there are secondaries the deputies behind the scene right that can I think it is important to recognize the the appeal of this tribal mindset so you know for much of Europe I does much of Europe want the UK if wretched it does indeed fully move forward to be punished to get something eat up so to have their do vengeance on the UK and what's the UK's perspective I think there's the danger that some of these darker emotions and start to muddle the prospects of prosperity for all the people across Europe and really by association around the world so watch out for the mindset get trained in some skills and and I think thirdly stay imaginative and imaginative keep that creative mindset alive if brexit does move toward finalization what are some ways to allow it to be most useful most effective for everybody involved and what are some creative ideas to help make that happen right do you think that the leaders of European Union and and United Kingdom are they actually using advices in this in this case which is obviously a historical important ago Shh now just sitting there in their own world and try to solve it so I only had modest interaction with some of the parties on both sides so I I can't speak from a judgemental perspective I do know that you know myself and some of my colleagues how did points been asking its Alton have done some the modest consulting whistle and leadership I that's and I know there are many others who are offering advice as well I you know that said there's still a politics there's you know there's still that the homegrown challenges on each side which do complicated for good reason the negotiation process across the table right which leads me on to the question 10 I know you've been invited to the World Economic Forum meeting in Switzerland several times and Americus what what a surprise you're the most meeting well leaders both from major corporations and governments what what is the price you the most about the competence in negotiation good good or bad you remember some of the first times that I was working with top level leadership heads of state and to this day my hands still sweat every time I meet somebody in that kind of a position of authority my wife on the other hand whatever she would've did she could care less I think there's something like anxiety is joy myself but I remember the first time some of those first times I was working with um top of leadership being very nervous I and in a sense idealizing these individuals no matter their politics given the power that they had and one of my big personal lessons which is I guess so very obvious but for me personally it wasn't was that they are human beings and they have a tremendous amount of burden on their shoulders for those who have worked with really now across the continents there once the door shut extremely open to ideas and that surprised me you know that really surprised me the openness of some of these top-level leadership oh yeah I'm saying that that's that's that's good news yeah that's good yeah no I haven't worked with with oh yeah obviously with all leadership so I can't say every leader is open but um but I have found that a good proportion who I work with are extremely open take a as an example in Colombia in negotiations the government with FARC as President Santos was building his strategy on negotiation he very innovatively thought to include a set of negotiation scholars and conflict resolution practitioners who have experienced and dealt with tough international conflicts but I wasn't a part of that but my colleague billiary was and I thought that was a brilliant idea let's not just reinvent the wheels of negotiation every time a new peace process is is launching let's benefit from the thinking the advice of the field of negotiation which really has built a history of good ideas yeah yeah then I remember a story that you told once about you did was it a workshop I will attend I'm informed with with me and then you had the people the world leaders in the workshop they have to agree who should lead the humans if I remember the story it could could could you just summarize that story I think that's very interesting sure so there's an exercise that I've built over time I caught the tribes exercise all right I initially ran this exercise with some colleagues in Macedonia it was there was potential civil conflict that was going to really explode across the country between the Macedonians ethnic Albanians and we wanted to show these leaders the world that they were walking into the psychology that they were walking into this dangerous psychology we had them do that exercise their dominance share with you prettier question 2005 with the World Economic Forum and doubles I was asked to do this triumph exercise we had 45 global leadership streaming into our workshop room it was a small room there were no windows and we randomly divided these 45 participants into tables six different tables we had in the room a deputy head of state we had academic credit presidents from academic university as we had fortune 550 a CEOs venture capitalists and on and on this incredible group with this incredible portfolio of experience in negotiation and I stood in front of the group when I shared that little theory that we talked about earlier my belief that our world is becoming more and more of a tribal world it was sort of like okay whatever I said to them you have this wonderful opportunity now at your tables to create your own chart okay and I gave them a set of questions to help them ask their tables define the basic attributes of their tribe they spend about 50 minutes creating their own unique group identities at their tables I gave them balloons I gave them crazy different items and I told them dress up and your tribal guard as well so by the end of those 50 minutes everybody comes back into our main plenary area the deputy head of state has a little red balloon on his head everybody's having fun you know but you can feel six distinct trying yeah different personalities and so yeah I stand in front of the group and I say okay let's do brief there section and I know what there's at least I think I do there think you know what interesting exercise but what's the point it's right at this moment that the lights go black in this room and into the room now floats this intergalactic alien I person dressed up with an alien huge eyes bulging head khalaqtu Kelly I have come to destroy the first I will give you one opportunity to save this world from complete destruction you must choose one tribe to be the tribe of everybody you cannot change anything about your tribe or your tribe or your tribe you will have three rounds of negotiations and if the world is not you know if one tribe is not decided upon by the end of those three rounds the world will be strong it out flutes this alien and as ridiculous as this might sound you can feel the temperature of this room global leaders we're thinking you know what I am a global leader we are going to save the world yeah make a long story short round one no agreement round two no agreement round three last round before the world would otherwise explode you had six negotiators come back to the middle of the room yep five men one woman by chance and the moment they get to the middle these men start yelling over one they start yelling over this woman who gets so rightly enraged that she literally stands on her barstool and she yells this is just another example of male competitive behavior you all come to I try up one tribe joins hers yeah the others refused and five four three two one Bango and in the course of only 50 minutes we are able to help people create an identity that they feel so connected you that they would rather explode the world and explode that items wow that's amazing that's amazing man IIIi love that thing you got there because it really says a lot about us as human right and the psychology side and the negotiation side I think it's a wonderful is wonderful example a wonderful story and another question that is kind of related to what we just discussed but perhaps difficult and one of the research area I'm working in as you probably know within negotiation is trust or rather the lack of trust because a lot of studies claim that Trust has been decreasing in the last 20 years so the very complicated question to you then is how do we establish trust when needing a counterpart that we don't know I think the most useful thing to do is to build affiliation to build that human connection and one can do it on multiple different levels so one I can build some sort of structural connection with you so I killed you and I were both in the field of negotiation I feel closer to you based upon that alone that's a structural connection and everybody holds some unique structural connections with those with whom they're working I look for them amplify them through conversation you like skiing so do I you like biking so do I where do you bike and that simple conversation can build some level of trust because I get from I get to know you a little bit more but that doesn't bring us fully to the realm of trust because if you and I start talking about more complicated issues what's your belief on abortion or capital punishment that changes the game yeah and so there I think one needs to build a deeper form of connection but what I would call it personal connections right it's the difference between talking about the weather yeah versus my asking you for advice on how to deal with my teenage kid but that latter conversation makes me a bit vulnerable yeah I'm putting something at risk yeah I'm asking you for advice but it's ultimately building a bond between the two of us all right right and I think in terms of trust building there's nothing more powerful than building that affiliation right granted one can use that manipulatively right it can be a source of exploitation but in my own experience 95% of the time it's gonna work 5% you're gonna get screwed that's pretty good average it's pretty good ratio there yeah now I don't know whether you find the same or you have the same experience as I have with your clients then but I see more clients are choosing not to get on an airplane and go somewhere to meet somebody physically and shave my head sit down and chat and won't people doing basically what we're doing now they go online they email each other and back to the topic of negotiation I find that that complicates the creation of trust quite a lot mean that as well then or are using it somewhat different agree with you - research supports that as well I think it depends upon the nature of the negotiation the content of the negotiation if my my keyboard breaks I don't think I need to fly to Japan to talk with the producers of that particular keyboard it's probably enough to talk by phone if it's the computer that broke maybe I want to go Skype yeah on the other hand if I'm negotiating a multi-million multi-billion dollar deal if I'm negotiating the Ries release of prisoners from your country or some other country in that sense I think that human relationship becomes more than essential right right what if the basic guideline I tend to use is I want to meet you once if I meet you once for the next five years we can talk via satellite conversation phone internet but I know you I know you in a different way on if I don't have that human to human experience it changes I mean right now you and I to the viewer and to each other we're human we're alive or interacting but we're flat we're two-dimensional we're on a screen and it's very different than shaking your hand hello look at you actually in the eyes feeling your presence and so on what so so what what you recommend in general is at least meet once take some time out and spend it to have some face-to-face talks toward the outside exactly or the outside of an important negotiation relationship right yes and just getting back to to the whole global issue and obviously we're more global than ever before and why why do you see if that's the case why cross-cultural negotiation why are they sometimes more challenging there's just negotiating somebody with somebody in your own conference I think negotiating with so many points own talent could be least as complicated as negotiating with somebody cross culturally I think it's how you define culture culture is that a shared beliefs values that we hold that we subscribe to that influence our behaviors within this town of Boston this little town of Boston we have an enormous amount of cultures within our sub town of Harvard there are an enormous number of cultures and not just national cultures or ethnic cultures but the culture of the Harvard Divinity school versus the culture of the Harvard Business School versus the culture at the law school so I come with the notion that culture is not an add-on but it's an always it's the thing that we always are dealing with and part of the challenge of culture is how do I build a good human connection with that other side given the culture you know giving the blessing of different cultures and I go back to some of the same concepts that we've talked about earlier today build an affiliation it walking in with the curiosity toward your culture rather than a suspicion of your culture I mean in the United States you know I I dare say when when some business people go to negotiate with colleagues and let's say China and Beijing they walking with great suspicion and it probably is the same I in Reverse I think that's one way of looking at negotiation at different would be to not walk in naive but to walk in and say boy I am excited to learn about this different culture I'm excited to walk this new adventure of negotiation with somebody who's very different background than I though it so how do you build that affiliation how do you respect status that's that I remember years ago I was giving a workshop in the Middle East it was a workshop for some diplomatic got some government workers working in diplomacy and we've been having a great conversation a lot of energy flowing and then all of a sudden conversations stop and I hear something was up I didn't quite know what was up and we take a break soon thereafter and one of the colleagues from that workshop one of the participants he comes up to me very kindly respectfully I was like with the shy presence he says I just want to let you know that as you were facilitating the dialogue you crossed your one leg over the other and the sole of your shoe happened to be facing a member of the royal family who was there in our workshop and everyone oh yeah joy kid oh yeah and I said I am so sorry I did not mean to do that and you know that was a learning point for me it really was obviously unintentional I go back after the break and I start off with a simple apology you know yeah I am so sorry I didn't mean to do this there was no offense meant to be had after that workshop this member of the royal family this diplomat comes up to me he says you really did not need to apologize we understand we understand the way he said it the underlying message was ultimately and you know thank you for respecting me and for respecting my culture I think we're never gonna know everything about every other culture the best we can do is to walk in with a sense of curiosity and respect and to apologize authentically when it's due yeah but for me happens to be much too often step on my shoes a lot I'm a foot a lot he already did it we are in middle of a technology revolution we have artificial intelligence we have lots of different areas that are moving very quickly so I would love to you share you thoughts on the future of negotiation and the reason I'm asking that is that I see some organizations and companies claiming that Association 10-15 years from now will be handled by computers by artificial artificial intelligence and and artificial intelligence will actually be able to do better negotiation that humans and what you thought of that I think that's true and some domains they aren't in others if I'm returning a product to Amazon the shirt doesn't fit my child I thought it would now I'm going to go shoot some sort of discount I can imagine a computer doing that fairly well it's a straightforward transaction it's low cost and for the Amazon side it's particularly low cost to have just computer maintenance on the other hand when dealing with more complex negotiations I cannot envision AI being the center of those conversations I think two things are at play one is the power of the human being by and uh I don't want to just interact with the computer I want to talk with the person I want to feel I think trust builds differently with the human being than with the computer and two I completely believe in Albert Einstein's notion that imagination is more powerful more important than knowledge that at the end of the day the most complex negotiations require creative thinking innovation and the algorithm is only as good Altimas the person who created that algorithm an algorithm cannot think creatively unto itself beyond the stipulations of that algorithm yes so I was at a session recently with some tech leadership from the Palo Alto area and I got really frustrated I don't know if I Boise my frustrations as much as I felt it but frustration at treating the algorithm as the divine the moment you get the algorithm that is these sacred answers to all of life's problems and I don't think that's true I think Google is spectacular the ability to get up to find any information we want but at the end of the day I don't think you can replace the human being I don't think you want to replace the human being in all domains and some yes but not and all right so you don't see in the future that we just have two computers sitting down negotiating towards each other and completely completely replacing human beings I think it's possible it is possible but I don't think that's the wisest approach I don't think the outcomes ending cost the human car financial cost energy cost I don't think it will give you the best outcome right now and that inspires me to another question do you generally find that leaders make better negotiators than everybody else and if so why and if not why not I think the task of negotiation is different or the leader then say the manager the manager is a bit more in the weeds they're dealing with negotiated there their goal is to help their teams negotiate most effectively and they need to negotiate with those teams daily to incentivize them the leader on the other hand to me is as much it should be a bit more in the cloud looking at the big picture inspiring people uh and that is their value in terms of negotiation it's inspiring and then ensuring that that vision is one that is in sync with the board with the others involved in that company what's that yeah yeah I think the negotiation is essential across the board the purpose of the negotiation I think it's somewhat different in those contexts what perfect thank you then last question before we wrap up today then is what is the most important advice that you would give anyone on the science of negotiation and obviously this is a very important many years ago when I was working with Roger Fisher on our book he advocated for the importance of appreciation in negotiation point in time I was a young scholar uh and I was thinking to myself boy you know appreciates me I get it but you want us to go into big corporations to talk government leaders and say you know what your problem is you're not appreciating enough and my anxiety level was above the above board and I just could not imagine doing that Raj and I spent a lot of time talking about it analyzing cases looking into the research literature and I now believe and % he was right I was wrong there is no tool no concept in the field of negotiation more powerful than that of appreciation right you know on at least on an emotional level if you and I are negotiating what does each of us want at a core level I want to feel heard and understood and valued and so do you and and it's something that you can do now part of the work I do is with hostage negotiators crisis negotiators so I've worked with the New York Police Department hostage negotiation team done some work with the with the FBI's Crisis Negotiation unit and you know I think even in those situations where life and limb are on the line the most useful tool across the board is appreciation but in just quickly there's a there's an example that's consistently struck me I many years back I was being trained by the near Police Department hostage negotiation team there was a situation that I became aware of a gentleman about 26 years old clearly suffering from deep mental illness is on the subway system on the platform and as he's walking around he spots this young woman about 20 years old carrying a baby in her arm he runs up to that woman he grabs the baby out of her arms he pushes the woman into the train track he runs off into the janitor's closet and soon enough the hostage negotiators are there now what is our tendency to do at that point in time as hostage negotiators for most human beings it's the bang on the door open this damn door up give us that child but the more we bang on the door the more resistant that hostage negotiator is and in trying to actually do this in real life all of our tendencies are basic human tendencies a lot of them need to go out the door and it needs to be wait a minute I need to appreciate this individual on the other side you know it's not saying it's asking very open questions what do you want how can we help you talk to us and situation once we started to ask those kinds of questions this gentleman he was not crazy he starts to say that his goal is to save the world save the world from the demons and bringing the good guys the angels and once we understood that he feels appreciated and we can completely reframe the way we're having the conversation look I don't see the angels you see I don't see the demons you see but I hear you saying you were trying to save the world and you know what in our own space small way here at the New York Police Department we're trying to save the world too why don't you open that door see if we could try and save it wow I'm appreciating that opens doors yeah Wow yeah weather what a what what a great word what a great sorry day and thank you for those final words and then if our audience want to study more and read into what you're doing what would you recommend them obviously you have the books up there and anything else you would recommend first and foremost I would familiarize myself with the work of Professor Jensen no it is it's very important work on trust on partnerships and beyond no and in terms of my own work two major books to focus on one is beyond reason that Roger Fisher and I wrote a number of years back that book looks at how you deal with emotions in negotiation and then more recent book that just came out is called negotiating the non-negotiable how to resolve your most emotionally charged conflicts that's what goes a layer deeper and ask the question how is identity implicated in conflict and negotiation and how do we negotiate when our identity feels threatened I'm so those are two of my own books if anybody's interested you know that I'd recommend wonderful thank you then and I would just say to wrap up I would definitely recommend the books that Dan just mentioned both of them are outstanding and is really useful for anybody who has an interest in studying with you Dan thank you ever so much for participating I loved all your story all your knowledge I know we could continue hours and hours people always amount up with the wealth of knowledge you have but unfortunately we have to wrap up thank you so much Stan I appreciate your time and all the best [Music]

Channel: Keld Jensen

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Keywords: Dan Shapiro, negotiation, harvard PON, Keld Jensen

Id: xIbfbxAQmgU

Length: 44min 44sec (2684 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 19 2019