Damien Mander Is Waging War On Poaching | Rich Roll Podcast

[Music] thank you so much for coming up I've been anticipating this conversation for a very long time it's a pleasure to meet you man your work is inspiring and it's an honor to talk to you today likewise thanks very much Mike I think a good place to start is to kind of establish the world of poaching and and what's currently going on right now what is this like explain this whole world of poaching I mean poaching is is illegally taking something from nature that you're not supposed to be taking that I mean that comes in many different forms whether it's removing plants or even rocks right up to killing elephant and rhinoceros either for the tusks in the case of the elephant or the horn on the Rhino and the bushmeat the skins you know ultimately it's a way to exploit nature and in nature exploit animals and that's the part that appeals to me or in terms of trying to stop it is the suffering that is happening to those animals and you know I've got a certain unique skill set which is unfortunately required to protect nature and that's where we're at mm-hmm and in terms of the landscape in Zimbabwe in the neighboring countries you know break down the kind of economics that is fueling this whole industry well I mean poaching is is often a function of greed and of poverty of greed coming from places like the the Far East where ivory and rhino horn are two highly desired prizes basically and what that results on the ground is people that are either trying to make a living or trying to get further and further in front going out and taking taking what they can from nature and selling that and I mean it's another it's another currency for organized crime and often the victims other than the animals animals themselves in organized crime are other people that are at the lowest levels who are there to carry out the function of of killing these animals sure I mean there's poachers that are simply just trying to survive and then there's organized crime okay where the profit margins are super high I mean the the price for these tusks is insane well I mean in the in the case of rhino horn Iran Oh horn can go for up to thirty five thousand US dollars a pound and it's not uncommon for a rhino to have twenty or thirty pound on its snout you know these these animals I mean that they should be locked in safes but they're out there running around in the bush and you know it takes a very concerted effort to try and give them every chance of survival and in the case of poachers they're going to be right once we're going to be right a hundred percent of the time of course and the demand for these tusks is driven by places like China and Vietnam China Vietnam Malaysia is that they hold mystical health properties well with the case of ivory ovaries used as carvings trinkets creates status you know when these tusks in fallen particularly the bigger ones are turned into these intricate pieces they carry a lot of value and that's seen by certain cultures as a form of investment and beauty and art in the case of a rhino horn Ronnie Horner traditionally has been used as part of traditional Chinese and traditional Vietnamese medicine and varying curing qualities that are recognized in those cultures but recently what we've seen is it's become a status related good and that is it's similar to having a Rolex watch particularly in the way that business is done in in these parts of the world being able to present someone with a piece of rhino horn or a trinket made out of rhino horn it demonstrates wealth and and and a certain level of capacity mm-hmm so in 2009 when you embarked upon you know this this journey that you've been on what was this state of of these animals particularly rhinoceros and elephant in terms of how many were being poached how decimated were the populations becoming like you know how close to extinction are they like what are the statistics on this when I first got to Isambard way in 2009 I arrived in African without having too much knowledge of of conservation or any of these populations what was really going on I arrived that I simply to go and do some anti poaching and we can get into the reasons that I went there in the first place later in the interview but the year I arrived in Zimbabwe and 2009 that the previous year that lost 15% of its black rhino population of black rhinos listed as critically endangered as far back is that the turn of the 20th century there was a million black rhino that were that were roaming African reliance and 2009 were down to 5,000 left Wow you know so it gives you um gives you an idea of Murano is it is an indicator species of not only what we're doing to nature but doing to our planet and ourselves and seeing that downturn in in those numbers it I mean to me it was it was a war that presented itself that I chose to go at and and try to fight well let's work our way up to that let's go all the way back to the beginning you grow up outside Melbourne amen yeah well I was born in born in Melbourne raised in Sydney yeah dad ran pubs so and we lived in pubs my first 10 years and my life and a pub and the last 10 years getting kicked out of them but uh I've read one story where I don't know how old you were you must've been a teenager where some guy came at you with a pool cue and you just stared him down and chewed your your beer glass in front of them is that like apocryphal or is that did that happen yeah yeah yeah that's how it's not much come back when you don't swallow yeah yeah uh-huh yeah I was a bit of a young hothead I suppose I'll say you know interesting as I sit here and look at your book on you and your desk here by Ryan holiday ego is the enemy well it certainly was my enemy for a long time yeah so you grew up as a young kid a little bit entrepreneurial freediving for for fishing lines and then selling them back to the fishermen yeah so I said back back moved back down in Melbourne when I was about 10 years old with my parents obviously and we lived in a small fishing town called Mornington it's not it's not a small town anymore but it was was quite small back then and the fishermen would go fishing for calamari or squid over night time and I had these little lures that colorful little things itself 15 20 bucks in there in there in the shops but I used to sell them for five and so I had you know free diet free dive down and collect these lures and come back up and sell them to the fishermen and use the money from that to start buying on my own scuba diving gear and put myself through training and of course this was paying off so what do you do you go and get a bunch of shopping trolleys and throw them in the water and wrap them with rope and that's you know conducive to catching more and more fishing lures so like a whole enterprise yeah so you know I was only 14 15 when I'm doing this and just falling in love with being in the water you know if I wasn't in water or or near it you know I was you know I was lost and natural progression for me was to try and join the Navy and become a diver right so it was sort of perfect training to become a clearance diver yeah yeah yeah I mean yeah the sea it was my office for many years and I loved being underwater and submersed and just having a task to complete under there so what led you to that decision to join the military you know I mean yeah it just seemed like it honestly - it would seem like a cool thing to do adventure I joined the military for adventure yeah you don't seem like the kind of guy who could sit still for too long but what are you saying that was I'm like twisting and jumping around yeah based on everything you've done I was little Johnny the little [ __ ] up the back it was always like throwing things and getting in trouble getting sent to the principal's office yeah that was that was how was that kid so if I everyone out there that is listening that had an idiot like me in your class and stunted your education I'm very sorry so there's still a gap between joining the military and becoming a real Navy clearance diver right like it's sort of the equivalent of Navy SEALs so I actually join up as an electronics technician because they wouldn't take divers straight off the street so I joined up and eventually was accepted to go onto the the clearing where they called the clearance diving acceptance test that's our version of your buds hell week and it's exactly what it was sleep deprivation and being exposed to the the the four great pillars of misery to be hungry tired cold and wet yeah you'd know all about about that nose you know those elements but uh yeah man I got through that and then went on to went on to training to become a clearance diver and then September 11 happened yeah was this did this coincide do you know Paul de Gelder yeah and I pull very deep were you guys in it at the same time I think I was just getting out or I'd gone over to the army at that stage the Special Operations when he was when he was coming through I'm sure right but I know Paul well he's a good mate of mine he's afraid too I got a funny story Paul if you want to hear that Joe was out filming a documentary now for those of you that that maybe weren't listening when Paul Liddy's show here you know Paul is a survivor of a shark attack and he lost his arm and his leg but so we were filming this documentary and Paul was there and we're doing unarmed combat training and Paul's bloody tough so I go in there and I'm me against two Rangers I get flattened in two seconds they got me on the ground tapping out and now Paul goes in now Paul wasn't willing to tap out and so what happened is he's essentially wrestling with these two Rangers but while he's doing it his prosthetic arm and leg came off and had been thrown to the side and he was still wrestling with these Rangers and I had him on the back foot and just then a game drive vehicle with all these tourists came around the corner and saw these two local Rangers this guy's missing an arm and leg wrestling on the ground had to run over sides it's all cool it's cool cool you know he's a tough guy he's tough night he's bloody tough and he's a good guys you could go to you know just hanging out never be with it's interesting that that both of you guys have now you know taken a place in this in this movement in different ways and have such a powerful voice like this that life has brought you full circle to kind of you know coincide on different but you know analogous missions yeah yeah and I he's got a great voice for sharks and for the ocean and and animals in general and I think that's a really important thing because our movement and the movement of of having a better understanding and appreciation and compassion for animals it's a story that we got to hit from multiple angles and that requires multiple people and multiple stories and all that freelancer voices yeah you know alright so September 11th happens and and why was that significant for you personally I mean it changed the world for a lot of people to a place it would never be the same again for various reasons but uh I mean for me it changed the course of my life the Australian government formed what they termed the first and last resort for a terrorist attack on home soil and that was the tactical assault group a very small niche unit made up of various Special Operations units and and navy clearance divers I went across into that unit as a diver and I've been there for a couple of days and was told I was going on to become a sniper or two which takes you on what takes you away from the water it does my fish out of water literally so that was it man I went and trained and and then passed qualified and and went online as a special operation sniper when was that 2003 2004 yeah and then you get deployed so I left them the Australian military I went to work in the private sector and during the Iraq war you never went to Iraq under our official military capacity well actually well I did I went with private companies but were employed by the US military on the US Marines a division called seaport is a civilian police assistance training team and then with the US Army Corps of Engineers project matrix rebuilding major infrastructure across the country yeah and a big part of that scene from what I understand it was that you were training the Iraqi police force and you know basically trying to get you know the Iraqi population on its own feet with respect to self-defense yeah look that I mean that was the role me personally I mean I didn't join the military to serve my country I did it for adventure or not I definitely wasn't in Iraq trying to and trying to make the situation better I went there for money and that's that's a God's honest truth it just so happened that the stuff we were doing there was aiming to be constructive however it wasn't and you know I think one of the biggest mistakes of the war other than going there in the first place was disbanding the Iraqi army and the Iraqi police overnight and then trying to replace it with just a whole different you know whole different group of people in a short space of time and we made so many monumental mistakes that have scarred that country yeah yeah I mean having to train all these people in a very short period of time to do a job they're ill-equipped to do right I would imagine that resulted in you know a lot of people perish yeah yeah you know you know I was project manager for the Iraq special police charge training academy in northern Baghdad and we had you know we were tasked by Congress to try and deploy battalion-sized groups and send him back out there on the frontlines groups that were drawn from a mixture of sunni and shiite backgrounds and and from anywhere in the country and we formed the groups and we sent him out after six weeks of training and they either got killed they joined the militia and fought back against us or they deserted and there's no greater way to demonstrate a failed theory than a synagogue obviously but but politically they wanted to see the big numbers right i discerned these people out because that looks good on a you know in a newspaper article exactly a man and you know as a sign tom the insurgency was really standing up and you know a lot of that was laid or contributed by the the people that are being put out of work the ones that were trained and the ones that had access to all the weapons and all the explosives across the country what do people not really grasp or understand about what that experience was like over there I think it affects some it affects people in different ways you know and I said the thing that probably and I struggled with the my you know II didn't get time to reflect until you're out of it often and he trying to look back and piece things together and figure out you know what it was all about and what you were doing there in the first place and the other thing that affects me the most affected me the most was just seeing what happened to the Iraqi people and their culture in their country and their families and their children and you know I made a very strong effort to learn Arabic and learn the culture when I was there and spend time with families eating with them understanding them communicating with him and you know when you can't sit down at a table and and and break bread with someone who hasn't been directly affected you can't do that anyway there everyone's been directly affected whether it's a kid that was blown up on the way to school whether it's a mom that's missing an arm or a leg a wife that can't see anymore so it's everyone's got a story man and every story's tragic Wow so you deploy you did 12 different deployments over how many years three years so I mean his deployment was a deployment anything from two weeks to six months six months with the longest two weeks the shortest just depending on what the gig was or the mission yeah right I mean you kept going back money was good though I bought my first house um before the age of 21 and Wow by the time I left Iraq I'd six houses so is that a common thing with the guys in your trade there's they start buying real estate with a possible income no I wouldn't so it's common yeah I mean it's I mean the the Great Australian dream is to own your own house I suppose but uh you know for me I didn't want a house to live in I just wanted residential property to invest it and you know make money and that that's what that's what that was what drove me and my 20s adventure and money and trying to make as much of it as possible it was a status thing to be honest so after that 12th deployment was there something inside of you that said like I'm done like I've got to find something else to do I was starting to get complacent you know we're going out running up to four missions a day and just complacent you know and that wasn't fair on the people around me you know I had enough money had enough houses that you know I first smart with my money I wouldn't have to work again foreseeable future it turns out I did after I spent it all on setting this thing up yeah but uh yes about nine years of military and you know I suppose I was just don't out man I mean he's sitting there he like a coiled spring for three years over there and you know saying [ __ ] they and I get up draw your weapons roll on missions yeah and then come back in and [ __ ] sit there and watch a television show in your Surrey store yeah yeah I mean it has to be super weird and disorienting I had a a woman in in here to do the podcasts the other day who suffered you know terrible PTSD from from her deployment you know to the point of you know coming close to suicide and having lost a bunch of people you know that she was close with and it was interesting to hear you know her journey back towards trying to become whole again after that experience I mean do you qualify as somebody who experienced PTSD or do you just think you needed to find like a you know a healthy outlet for all that adventurous energy that you have I suppose the danger with PTSD is is thinking you don't have it or saying it doesn't affect you I think there's no way you can you can go to a place like that and not be affected in some way and also you know it doesn't affect you straightaway for a lot of people right simmers below the surface and then rears up often with a combination of other factors in your life but um no I mean if a car door slams or anna has allowed unexpected bang on right now yeah I'm the roof man but uh you know I get a little bit of anxiety and stuff like that but I suppose that's that's what you get when you roll around expecting to get blown up at any stage for for any extended period of time you you carry that with you but for me I think you know for a lot of for a lot of people that leave war the hard part is leaving purpose and when you go and I hate to say war its purpose but it's not necessarily the war it's the unit's you're working with and the people that are you side-by-side with and these are my case they're brothers and there's very few other jobs where you spend all working week together and then you want to hang out or we can only guys it's just it really is home robbery that behind my nothing else it's it's really hard to find them when you're not there anymore and that all the skills I mean you mean Special Operations it's it's a special job you know and then when you're not special anymore you just [ __ ] someone else and that's that's a lot to deal with for some people and what your body's doing now [ __ ] I mean there's a bunch of it under killed themselves the bunch they've gone on have been very successful in the military in the private sector great father's some now some people that are really struggling here you know you know he had a bunch of guys go off and and follow the diving Sylar stuff in a deep sea or as saturation diving but yeah for a lot of guys it's tough I know and women as well of course so you go to South America first to basically like party I mean what was the idea yeah man I read a book called marching powder and I said the best cocaine in the world was made inside san pedro prison in La Paz Bolivia now check it out how'd that go yeah it tasted like [ __ ] but it smelled good uh-huh look um yeah look not a year I'm proud of but I suppose we all got to look on certain parts of a law I think it's I mean I'm asking you not from a pure in interest but really because I think it's important like I'm always super interested in you know how people take their pain and turn it around and I think in order to really kind of understand that like I want to understand like what you were endured and what you went through and like where it took you because at some point there was a powerful catalyst that's that you want a whole new trajectory yeah yeah I mean a South Africa South America for me was about him bottoming out and hitting rock bottom and I don't know if that was a self-destruct mechanism that I felt I had to I had to hit to realize you know am I gonna go all the way through the floor or am I gonna use that to bounce back off and come back up the other side and fortunately you know it was the latter can't back out the other side but how long were you down there 11 months in South America me a man just just partying the whole time no no it was my way of just tapping out and just I don't know you know you tell yourself some funny things when you when you think if you've been working hard and you deserve a break or you deserve things that may not be good for you yeah yeah your mind can play some really good tricks trust me yeah yeah yeah I know yeah so did you get are you sober then do you are you like totally off everything or without my still now I still have a beer and have a drink love a beer and a drink and all that but um you know let's just sell consumer my share when I was over there right of drugs and alcohol it was um you know it was it was a dark time and you know a bit a bit of played a role in shaping who I am and where I am today you know being able to look back and reflect on our vulnerabilities and use them as a tool for change I think is what can make us truly human and nature nature gets to evolve over millions of years and we only have one lifetime to do it so we got to [ __ ] get it right and get it right quick yeah yeah well that issue of vulnerability I think is super important you know I mean you're a guy who I look at and say you're changing people's ideas of of masculinity in a positive way in the sense that you know we traditionally align you know for whatever reason dietary preference is with what means to be a man and the willingness to be vulnerable is seen as a weakness and you know I've come to learn and experience directly and through many other people that I know that when you have it actually takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable under this and that's what is the connective tissue between you and humanity in your community and I think it holds a lot of power to be transformative for other people that you know are struggling in their various ways yeah yeah yeah you're right how you know it's easy to bottle things up and not talk about them and you know puff the shoulder puff the chest out and and you're trained to do that yeah I mean well it's expected yeah there's a difference between being trained to be like that or being expected to be like that and I think being expected to be like that is harder what I don't explain the difference and I like it me interview if you're trying to be some tough guy but then everyone thinks you're a tough guy I mean a lot of the guys we work with a special operation are special operations now isn't just a bunch of big 250 pound guys covered in tattoos you know there's there's all different shapes and sizes and you know it's the small quiet going to make corny got to be scared off not a big loud mouth with the tattoos yeah I heard they're happy so you know and for me I suppose the hard part was is you know I was a hard footballer and you know I was a tough scrapper as a kid and it almost like I felt as though I was always having to do something to prove who I was and to prove the next thing and impress someone and that I suppose has been one of my biggest downfall yeah where does that come from you think that's an Ironman just as a kid just trying to find your place in the world in the in out there and and figure out who you are and where you're from and I suppose you know you can get on a slippery slope pretty quickly and yeah I mean I did some cool stuff but uh I wouldn't say I was happy with the person that I was mm-hmm so how do you get from South America to Africa one way to get are you judo straight from there what's that you go straight on now I went home had a bit 11 months worth it dirty laundry to take back to mom and and I'll wait hive and just put some white back on and I've got the end of 89 kilos so what do you go with setting pounds I don't know I'm sure someone is probably like 200 pounds or something right you're like what like 240 250 250 uh-huh so dare just went back home 8 spent some time with the family I've been away for a better part of three years and I'm very close with the family and everything so I went back there regrouped and offer went man had a one-way ticket why Africa ago I read a lot of Wilbur Smith as a kid honestly it was another adventure and I heard about anti-poaching some years earlier actually I just got a message about from a mate yesterday he said I remember you talking about that in 2003 mmm and in a bar and I'd heard years earlier as well so it's just interesting they just it just sounded like a cool thing you know and it's but was it that was it just African Tommy did you have an intention of seeking out this whole anti-poaching thing yeah I mean I was I was going over I was going over another adventure another another another you know chapter and Demi Amanda's lawful wasn't going to do anything constructive was looking for a call a fortnight of course and yeah it was a another you know I would say it was a misdirected use of more energy and skills at the time and well looking back not so much your intention maybe yeah you know things have worked out things have worked out really well and I suppose I'm really happy with where we're going as an organization I'm happy with my own personal evolution and and just I suppose and I'm proud to say the courage that I feel I've had to stand up for those that can't speak for themselves and to try and be a role model particularly to younger men and you know we don't we don't have to hurt things to be cool you don't have to put people down to be cool you don't have to be a sniper to be cool you don't have to eat meat to to prove how macho you are you can just be you and you can be much more powerful and courageous and and much more of a role model when you do what you believe in it's interesting that you're you know you said your evolution but that evolution you know it's continuing to unfold like the changes that you've made just since you did that TED talk yeah are pretty amazing right it's not it's now extended to caring for all of these women and it's almost become a female empowerment movement as much as it is an animal protectionist conservation movement yeah interesting you say that you know when at the core we're a conservation organization not necessarily a female empowerment organization we have chosen to employ women and put them out there on the frontlines and what is the only Nature Reserve in the entire world that's completely managed and protected by women and we're doing this not because we felt a pressure to equal their numbers not because of me to move what we're doing it because it makes business sense and I think for a lot of people that's important to understand because it it makes business sense and the bottom line is what influences a lot of people I come from the ultimate boys club special-operations you can be the president of a country and be a woman that you can't be special-operations and so for me to be in a position now where I am and and genuinely believe that women will change the face of conservation forever he's a big turnaround and ego was the thing that was holding us back the whole time mm-hmm well let's work our way towards that you you arrived in Africa and and what you just like immerse yourself in the anti-poaching community I mean how does that work I tried to sell myself as you know this tool that could be used and deployed out there on the front lines and then you start like here comes another white guys yeah exactly a man and you know got a lot of a lot of closed doors like people and I get an email every day from someone that wants to come over there with their own sniper rifle or whatever it might be and run around the bush and hunt poachers and it's not like that there's a far more complex situation going on on the ground and this is not the Wild West where you can just turn up with your own rifle and go out start hunting people you can join the army if you want to do that but you can't come to Africa and do that and you know the position I've carved in the industry and in Africa has been out of granite it's been tough a long hard slog and one in which I invested a hundred percent of my life savings to set up this organization and and make a go of it and you know it wasn't until I died I'd spent the better part of six months traveling around the continent trying to get a feel of things that I realized you know maybe I'm I'm going about things that right the wrong way right and we um we eventually got a start in in Zimbabwe and I just started working with an anti-poaching unit and just seeing the difference that a bit of face time with these guys made you know seeing now for them to learn that they were appreciated and that someone wanted to train them and work with them and you know this was only in one area so I mean obviously there's great efforts going on across across many other areas but I was just seeing impact that I was able to make and then you also see you know I just come from Iraq come from from the military units I was in we're [ __ ] made if I wanted anything I'll go to the storeroom and get it if we need a budget increase we get it you know we just asked for it and I was part of a military unit that was spending seven hundred billion dollars a year it's the annual defense budget and I was just an instrument of war and you know you're part of this huge funds you know spending mechanism which is you know we're looking after [ __ ] oil in the ground and dotted lines on a map and then you come over to Africa and you see these people that protecting the heart and lungs of the planet you start to think [ __ ] you know what was I doing and not only that I was trying to have an adventure on the back of their hard work so it made me feel um it may be really reflect on who I was and what I was about and I was increasingly becoming the person that I didn't want to be mm-hmm but there's this one experience that you have like a moment where everything seems like it from what I understand it seems like it changed things for you like coming upon an animal that had been basically the you know murdered and the tusks removed and that was kind of a turning point for you I mean there was those gradual things that were going on but this catalyst moments that the first one being seeing a buffalo look at you know one of the biggest and most powerful animals in the bush there and one of the most dangerous and she had a back leg corner y snare and the Rangers can read the ground like you read the front page of the newspaper they they it's a language to them and they were able to determine that she'd been struggling for three days and she ripped their pelvis in half China was scape you know these these wise snares they're like landmines they stay there and designed to trap animals that walk through around the hay lays the neck the head whatever it might be and indiscriminate and you know animal doesn't you know it's confusing when you trapped in a bit of why you don't have hands that won't do it or anyone to help you and you know we had to euthanize her we had to put a gun to her head and pull the trigger I should go birth to a stillborn calf and that's some you know I may appear to be a tough guy but something like that will break your heart right yeah and the thought was if there's a way to bring to bear this skill set that you have and you know kind of institutionalize it it could provide a line of defense against essentially what is what you're combating which is you know a highly organized well-funded operation to poach these animals yeah and up until that point the line of defense was not organized not well-funded people that lacked you know certainly like the skill set that you have to deal with this problem okay there's a lot of good efforts that are taking place out there but not enough of them and there's a huge imbalance in in this world in terms of what we're willing to give towards protecting nature and animals I think about 5% of all charitable giving that goes out is dedicated for animals domestic and and wild and only 5% and and and the environment religion gets about 30 percent and the rest is all humanitarian stuff so there's it you know we want to look after ourselves we we got to look after nature to be able to do that most effectively and look I saw a problem I had two things a certain skill set and I had money so I decided to do something about it simple as that there was no long-term thinking about it and I was enrolled to can't be trained as a chef down at Silverwood in Cape Town at the time and you know that was gonna be my next next life choice and then once you know I'd got submersed enough in in this with with the Rangers that was it sell up and and start up so you sold all your properties to like self fund this thing yeah I didn't pay myself a salary for the first three years and just used the rest of the money to to pump back in vehicles and aircraft and training centers for Rangers supporting various programs and then got to a point where we had two thousand dollars left in the bank I thought she don't need to figure out how to fundraise yeah and on a plane come to LA yeah well TED Talks yeah yeah that'll help but time this is now this is many years ago we'd you know started the organization it was sort of ragtag small operation and who are you recruiting to be your feet on the ground where people in the community or some of your peers from Special Forces like what dude it's combination of the two and we were working largely to empower indigenous forces and ones that were already in in a role not necessarily going in to train new new forces and yeah I mean a lot of the skills that they need out there on the front lines are very similar to what we needed in the military and we don't need SEAL Team six out there on the ground protecting these animals we just need people that we can trust people that are willing to work hard that I'm well motivated and well legend and with the right basic equipment and I always say what we're doing the first 90% is is just working with people and you know we can't replace people with algorithm is in Africa the most important asset and the value most valuable asset is that people there and if you work with them and just focus on the first 90% of you of your model is is getting them well motivated well lead well equipped then that'll generally solve most problems the last 10% you can start introducing the sexy stuff the drones yeah everyone wants to talk about the drones but you're always bringing it back to the people yeah well you know well the I mean there's there's been a number of trials done with drones in Africa and in conservation and Concord I mean the bottom line is conservation doesn't have the budgets that the military does and so we sit there stuffing around with with bits of equipment that the military superseded decades ago and trying to make that work when in actual fact there's a reason the military is has evolved and that's because they've evolved to things that work in in in tougher theaters we don't have that we don't have those budgets are there certain areas where everybody knows these are the established front lines where where the poachers tend to you know navigate towards like how do you know where the hot spots are where the poachers are going to be like how does all that work yeah definitely you know one at one of the programs we ran was on the eastern side of Kruger national parks border on the Mozambique side of the border and that is essentially the piece of land that separates a third of the world's rhinoceros from most of the world's run out merging syndicates and that is very much the front lines there and you know we the border was essentially the the front line of the war there and because they wander off the protected land and then they're fair game for that or well when they wander across the border into Mozambique where South African forces could not cross the border and then pursue that myself they knew that they could sneak up to the border shoot across or cross over shoot and then get straight back across to Mozambique and we stopped that we we created a viable force on the Mozambique side of the border that was able to pursue Mozambique ins on Mozambique and tough what is the law like are you legally allowed to shoot poachers like shoot to kill if you catch them in the act and how does that work I mean it's very much the same as a Western law enforcement models where you can shoot to protect life as a last resort when we teach our Rangers to use the minimum amount of force required to get the job done and and what we're essentially trying to do is not only preserve wildlife but also preserve human life and you know I mean you've heard something on Facebook and you know you get all the comments there's like I'll just shoot them and stack them up and all that and it's not about that you know you know we want we have to work within the laws of the countries that we're in and we actually want to want to see this thing go to go to trial and have a fair hearing and you know we can't be seen you know we're not some sort of vigilante force out there we're working with the government departments we we have respectable people that are on our boards of directors Jane Goodall as a patron you know we we can't jeopardize that because we want to go out there running around and just hunting poachers it's not like that on the ground yes so ha I mean are you able to ward off violent altercations in most cases or how often does it escalate with the men I would say you know and when I was when I was in the military you know men you sort of you get up to fight and always in that sort of fighting mode encountering surgeons or counterinsurgency is countering insurgents you go and you look for look for a fight women women have proven to be very different in what we've seen on the front lines and the 76 arrests that the the women of urkesh inga have made in the past 14 15 months have been made without a single shot being fired which is quite remarkable to see because usually there would be confrontation there so so much altercation the the area they're protecting and I don't want to get too far ahead here but the area they're protecting is home to the second largest elephant population left on earth 8,000 elephants are being killed in that area in the last 16 years so that's thousands of times teams of armed men have come into that area thousands of times that they're not only willing to shoot elephants but the people that protect them and for the women to be able to operate in such a dangerous environment and do so in such a passive ways there's a lot to be learnt from that now how are they doing that like what's the secret there is it empathy is it that the poachers are reluctant to kill the women or escalate its evac'd level of violence a women are very good at collecting information women form that the informal communications networks of rural communities about three percent of crimes that are solved around the world are solved by catching someone in the act the other 97 percent that are solved is solved through intelligence and intelligence led operations and that requires information to analyze turning to intelligence and we can go out and do those missions and the way that the women communicate and not only communicate but relate to the people in the communities they come from gives us so much information we know what's going on anywhere at any one time when we have to know it and a lot of the arrests they do is based on the information they collect and we go to the poachers house at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning surround the place and it's it's over very quickly the arrests that they've made in the bush they're very well trained very fit they're tough they're well-armed we don't like the fact that Rangers have to be armed and they need these sort of skills but that's the reality of it out there on the frontlines and interesting and I don't know the exact dynamics we're working with the Chinoy University of Technology to look at a number of different things on this project that we we want to understand from a scientific standpoint because there's some really different things that are going on here I mean another thing for example the the old patrol reports of when the men worked in this area they were charged by dangerous animals like elephant and Buffalo quite regularly the women haven't been charged once here and we look at that we thought what's going on then we found a study where voices from two different trials were played two elephants in Kenya and one of the one of the tribes had historically hunted elephants one had not the elephants became very agitated to the voice recording of the tribe that had hunted them and not agitated to the other voice recordings these animals know what's going on man they're smart and we spoke to the professor Victor and Posse at at the the cut' university there I said what do you think this is prof well it's probably as simple as this what's been hunting animals for thousands of years it's been men not women and so if we can scientifically prove that all female patrols are actually much safer from the biggest threat that Rangers face out there not necessarily poachers but the animals they're trying to protect you know it's another dynamic to what we're doing that's super fascinating yeah I mean that being being met with that specific dialogue and having them be agitated even if they even if they weren't directly hadn't directly experienced that before it's almost like baked into the yeah genetic code yeah yeah that's amazing yeah I need to get back to you on that man and let you know where we are like I'd like to know it statistic they figure out fascinating and you know we're learning a lot just but yeah I remember during the training and there very early in the stages when I'd never worked with women all that units were all male and and I'm just watching them and they'd been given a team-building task and I was getting super frustrated that they you know there wasn't all the grunting and groaning that you would expect with doing what we were putting putting them through at the time and and you know as a bear to go and intervene and just say you know look if you don't want to be here then just you know I can pack your bags and leave okay we only want people that are putting in a hundred percent effort all the time and then I shut up a bit bit bit my tongue and went shut up and sat down I just watched him and they got the job done and they got it done in time and they got done as well as it had to be done they're just as far less [ __ ] and I realize there's just different ways of doing things well we should just establish that you started this unit called a cachinga which is this all-female Ranger program what was it like within a year right or a year ago very recent August 2017 we started higher and explained to me the impetus to forming this I mean reading more and more literature about the empowerment of women and industries that are that are transitioning to have more women inclusive in management positions board positions field positions and the flow on benefits that they're realizing and being part of a largely male-dominated industry and particularly at ground level where men outnumber women by up to one hundred to one on the front Alliance and the ratios you'll hear and different there's a study done such 19 percent of ranges are actually female but those females are restricted generally to looking after a gate or an office job or not frontline jobs and so we thought if women aren't being given access to every every role at ground level then they can't really rise into management positions and be expected to make life-and-death decisions in an operational environment they can't do that without having the accept that all that experience behind them and I thought well if we can't progress as an industry an industry that's had tens of billions of dollars invested into it and we're still talking about animals going extinct and maybe we need to relook at how we're doing things I read an article I believers that The New York Times about the US Army Rangers and they'll putting a platoon through that had a certain percentage of women on there now I have a close affiliation with the US Army Rangers because we got into a spot of bother in northern Baghdad and and those guys came and got us out of this I thought well if these guys saved my ass in northern Baghdad and and they're actually transitioning and including women on in front frontline roles now as Rangers in the army then maybe we need Rangers wildlife rangers that are females in Africa and I mean this certainly women that are employed out there and in various roles but other well we looked at other projects they were including women it seemed almost like a token gesture like women were being put in certain positions but not even given the opportunity to complete all the roles so we thought stuff it you know let's let's do a selection and see where it goes and we tried and tried and tried in many different areas and we got we got blocked from this concept of having an all-female anti-poaching unit an armed one which there was no armed all-female in deep ocean unit anywhere on the continent there are other female anti-poaching units but they're unarmed with a block of black mamba the black mambas is one example where they are working outside and in in the communities and doing a fantastic job and building those relationships but the inside of the reserve is is the role is done by an armed male the unit that's it's a private security company so also doing a you know fantastic job but it undermines the men because they're not given the recognition that the women are getting and it undermines the women because they're not given the opportunity that are given to do every role so we you know we wanted to create something where there was complete opportunity for everyone that that passed the selection and when you say you were blocked I mean what exactly was going ah there's politically correct responses to why and it wasn't the right time to look at this or no thank you and no we don't want to take the risk but you know we were determined to give it a try and we eventually found an area in the lower Zambezi ecosystem in in Zimbabwe and one of the largest elephant populations left on earth an area that has been home to a lot of trophy hunting operations throughout the years and 20% of Zimbabwe's landmass is actually set aside for trophy hunting or Toto Safari areas collectively are across Africa an area the size of Texas is satisfied for trophy hunting now if I was to say to you rich mate we're gonna we're gonna scrap 700,000 square kilometers were an area the size of Texas we're going to wipe out all of those national parks across Africa people would be an absolute uproar now this is happening with all the areas that have been set aside for trophy hunting but they're not national parks they're communal areas communal hunting areas they are areas and have equal biodiversity importance this national parks but let's just say not not ideal for tourism is it are they privately owned or is it government land usually government or owned by the communities okay excuse me here cups owned by the communities and so when these area when these areas do well the communities do well and when they don't they communities see no need to conserve them anymore and they they move in the trees get cut down the animals get poached it often gets converted into grazing area for cattle and so we we saw trophy hunting not as an argument to be had but rather as an equation to be solved and we went on to this area to try and create an alternative economic model to trophy hunting at the same time is trying to stand up this all-female antipodean yes so it serves it serves multiple agendas because one of the things with the International anti-poaching Foundation and what you were doing initially and traditionally is effective but also sort of a band-aid on this massive problem because until you get until you create the right incentives the right economics incentives and and you're you're sort of woven into the fabric of the community where they're supporting what you're doing yeah you're gonna be challenged right so by creating this this all-female you know cadre of women of Rangers you're basically connecting with the communities in a more in-depth way I think creating incentives that these people can support themselves and find a way you know a better way I think I mean to summarize I think women have become the bridge that conservation had to build into the communities and break down those barriers and I mean historically when we were forming an anti-poaching unit or working with one the men that we would employ would be employed from places far away we'd bring them in and that's so they they weren't living next to all the working next door to their cousins or the brothers and they you know they can its give information of where certain herds of animals are going to be because I've worked with some of the best units in Africa and corruption always creeps in and I often say go in Africa I'm getting upset with with corruptions like you know the beach and getting pissed off with the sand it's there it's how we how we manage it that determines the difference between success and father of a program and if you can walk in and take corruption out of the equation you already halfway home and you know so with the women we haven't seen corruption yet we were 15 months into it we haven't seen an incident of corruption and that allows us to employ 100% from the local community right next door to where where where we live are working and that turns the biggest line out and we have in conservation which is law enforcement into a direct community investment and putting money that would otherwise be dispersed around the country directly into the local community at household level right into the hands of women and just politically I mean that makes it a lot easier for you to get doing what you're trying to get done and then these women are empowered and they can buy land and you know raise their kids it's amazing watching uh you know the transformation and each one of these women has a has a tough story a tough background they're all survivors of abuse you know domestic violence sexual sexual violence AIDS orphans single mothers abandoned wife so they've you know when we put them through training we you know we thought we were being tough on them but they'd already been through Allen bucks yeah just seeing the way that they transform themselves and they absolutely no handouts that have been given on this program we made a bloody tough if anything we made it tougher than we normally would because we're at reputational risk in our own minds of employing women now I'm putting them out there so we thought were you know you know we're really gonna test them and once we saw the potential capabilities the toughness the resilience we became our job to train yeah when you got the first group of women and began the training did you think like you know this could go sideways like or did you think like this is gonna work right from the outset not from a halfway through day one we knew we had a very special somehow very different you can just see you know you learn the most about someone when they don't think they're being watched and some of the stuff were putting these women through and seeing how they work together and just cracked on with their you know a minimal fuss and getting the job done and and you know it was a pretty arduous and dangerous environment at the time so how many women are part of it now so we got 47 staff that are employed around 40 of those are women and we got seven guys that are working on building roads and doing construction out in the bush and we got James so James was the Skinner for the hunting operation that used to be there and so when someone would come in and shoot an animal which doesn't happen anymore we've bought we've bought the company well that the area out working with the the other stakeholders there so we bought out the options to to hunt there ever again I'm putting in different models in but James who was left over there he's now been trained as a vegan if so he used to skin an almost he's no skinning potatoes and carrots at all these women are eating vegan right yeah the whole program is vegan and we took that stance by making the program vegan not necessarily making the women vegan but giving them the opportunity and the understanding of why we think conservation should be leading the pack in terms of driving a legal mess egde around the world of people that had sign up for conservation because they love the environment or animals or a combination of the two and what better way to protect and also not to just to come in your mouth yeah I saw that 60 minutes piece that just came out recently right in Australia yeah Ayaka shingu and it's emotional I mean to see these women coming from the circumstances that they were in to this incredible place of empowerment and then to be recognized and when they go back to their communities or they go to schools like everybody knows who they are like it's it's a it's a big thing yeah this this this unintended social engineering that's going on there in these communities where women were once you know once a outcasts but you know treated pretty very poorly and you know they weren't necessarily victims of circumstance they're largely victims of men and to see now the the way that they carry themselves and the respect they have in the local community the way they've been able to break down the barrier between conservation and community and build relationships and conversations instead of conflict it's a testament to I think what is it natural quality that these women possess what did the male villagers think of it so when these women were coming for selection they were told to to go back home to essentially piss off back back to the home and carry out their job there as you know domestic workers and you know they still they stuck their head down and they turned up and they went through the training and the ones that made it through are now just fantastic ambassadors in in the local communities you know Abigail yeah you know young lady she's um she's 19 finished school about a year and half ago she goes back to a local school now she's mobbed like a rock star by every every young girl in that in that school and you know she creates hope for them and that's that's special to see you know in a community where you know women get pushed constantly right to the back of the line right and what is the effectiveness of the unit in terms of combating poaching so when we first got in there we would see animals as a wildlife as little as once a week we're now seeing animals coming in on it on every patrol that we were going out the women have made 76 RS which is sort of unprecedented unprecedented success throughout that area the distance between where they operate from and where they're making those arrests is getting further and further apart so the information they're getting is driving them into the Syndicates and mid levels of the Syndicates and breaking those open information that they got last year implicated former first lady Grace Mugabe in ivory trafficking that led the Zimbabwean government has set up a task force so here you've got the most oppressed demographic under the Mugabe regime for 37 years being women in rural communities now responsible for triggering an investigation into one of the most powerful women on the continent Wow so Mugabe is out now has that changed anything politically well president Mullingar war has taken over and you know we hoping that more investment and more visitors to Zimbabwe we'll see you know it's actually a very safe and beautiful country and Monica Aguas daughter Tory Rho is one of the ranges that works with this program yeah and then it wasn't didn't magar B's wife get busted for poaching yeah yeah yeah so that's um you know and I mean Maga these kids would be on Instagram tipping champagne over their Rolex watches and just carrying on like brats in general and and he you've got the daughter of the current president he's a you know she spends time out there on the front lawns patrolling to protect the natural heritage and that's a huge change do these syndicates operate with relative impunity I mean what is the you know how effective is that govern is the government complicit at all like what is that what is the level of corruption that allow these crime organizations to flourish yeah I don't think a corruption is isolated it is in barber and I suppose any any different government department is gonna have good people in there and you're in a bad people and I don't things in barber is any different to the other countries over there you know it it's always tough for governments to look favorably upon conservation particularly in the current climate because conservation is becoming increasingly militarized and it's becoming increasingly militarized because people are becoming increasingly desperate and so we put our big offenses and more guns and we are in war with the local population on a continent that's gonna have two billion people on it by 2040 now when a government is seen to favor those actions they're viewed by the people their voters as favoring the lives of animals over people and that is that that pushes the priority of conservation further down that down the list now with these women forming that Ridge into these communities where we did we're not having a war with the local population we're having a relationship with them it actually brings conservation into a much more favorable light for the government mm-hmm and as somebody with with boots on the ground over there what is the real relationship between conservation and trophy hunting because there's this argument among hunters that you know by participating in this structure that exists over there that that is actually contributing to the promotion of conservation because of how they use the funds okay I I don't I mean I used to hunt you know to a chapter in my life that I will be having to take to the grave that's that's me what I dislike more than hunting is the fact that we as a global community have accepted it is the only economic model to look after so many areas and relied on it on it and and you know this unethical model where people pay to come and shoot something so they can hang it on their all has been the only way we've been able to come up with those funds and for us as and all those saying before we wanted to look at it as it as an equation to be solved and you know we're hunting has put money into certain areas to fund the protection of those areas that that funding is drawing up and we do need alter alternative models yeah I would imagine you know social media has played a part in making it less and less popular for people to embark on those trophy hunts you know with Cecil and the like you know it's it's got to be a dying thing is it it definitely uses them in hunting is an endangered species itself and one which i think is going to be increasingly reserved for the the uber-rich you've got reduced wildlife populations from poaching and in some cases hunting trophy hunting and there is a distinction between the two poaching is is illegal and sanctioned trophy hunting is legal and then the third the the you know we've got tougher policies and laws surrounding the export of trophies such as ivory from countries like Zimbabwe to places like America so it makes it harder for the trophy hunter to bring their trophy back and those sanctions are normally imposed by entities such as the US Fish and Wildlife Service when they they assess a country's conservation efforts and they try to make different adjustments to help conservation on the ground and the third reason is exactly what you said social media generation of people that are grown up being able to see exactly what hunting is at the click of a click of a finger and make the decision that they don't want to get on a plane to fly across the world so they can shoot something in the face anymore what is the biggest obstacle to winning this war on poaching look I think we definitely need a shift in the balance of how we look at protection of the natural world and now our our future as a species is directly intertwined with our willingness to preserve biodiversity and if we don't wake up and actually get behind this environmental move whether it's doing something about climate change a small change a big whatever whatever it is in your own home with your own children if we don't do something then we are the endangered species this rock is being spinning through three space for 5.3 billion years doing its thing and it survived much worse than mankind and unless we can seriously get together and and get behind this environmental movement and shift things like this I mean this crappy proportion of funding that we have in the not-for-profit world from 5% I'm a 5% seriously got 5% to look after the natural world the the the world that we'll have to live in and inhabit and all these other animals have to live here so if we can't seriously get that right then we're [ __ ] do you think you're pessimistic or optimistic I'm definitely optimistic mate you know and I've had my I had my pessimist a couple of years and you know the good thing about crisis is it's like me in South America man you can either [ __ ] you can either get [ __ ] back out the other side man and get up and dust yourself off and and you know learn from the lessons evolved or you can sit there and be [ __ ] grumpy about it right but uh you know what man is that there's a there's a bunch of people that are doing some really cool things and some inspiring things you know it's a look if you were to go back ten years and look forward to today and look at all the talk that's going on around protecting the environment and and policy changes I mean yeah there's a lot of [ __ ] things going on out there but you know what we're we're aware of them and when we're aware we can start to make changes and I don't think that you know there hasn't been a point in history where people have been so excited about trying to do good things for the environment we just need more and more momentum yeah it's interesting how we as a culture are more empathetic or we can wrap our heads around getting here you want some more water compassionate about these incredible animals like rhinos and elephants and the like but right under our noses is this you know massive industrial complex known as factory farming and we just haven't find it in ourselves to extend that same sense of empathy or concern to you know cattle and chick and fish and these other animals that you know we consume voraciously yeah this I mean that's at speciesism which is the same as sexism or racism allocation of different values and rights to different species and animals depending on how convenient that they are to us and this is you know I was a victim of my own [ __ ] when I walked around the bush for four years refusing to acknowledge that a cow has the same capacity to suffer as a runner and the only difference we create between their two abilities to suffer is the difference we create in our own minds and you know I was a master of coming up with all these excuses as to why we you know other animals didn't need the same level of appreciation as what the ones were that I was protecting cows aren't going extinct or you know they've been bred for us to eat you know I do so much good work in conservation that I've earned the right to be able to come home and eat these animals and it's [ __ ] and eventually here I suppose if you're open enough to acknowledging the truth it gets too much for you and that's a good thing mm-hmm yeah it is interesting you weren't you weren't vegan from the outset you were kind of well into this work before you know me nuts which for yourself I mean I come from a background of hunting not caring for the environment and not giving a [ __ ] about animals and I'm not proud of that but you know what it's a it's a good start point to have a conversation with pretty much anyone yeah in the world because you know some people have born close to perfect I was you know quite the opposite and it's it's being able to change and being able to identify where the mistakes are and use those as the lessons and you know I can sit down with Arthur from Texas I can sit down with them with the guy that likes to eat his steak because they used to be me yeah you know well not only that I mean you're not you know a dreadlocked hippie you know it's like you walk in and you cut this very masculine frame and you have your background that you have and I think that that you know with that gives you some gravitas to walk into a room and be taken seriously on issues that perhaps would be dismissed if somebody who different than you was trying to communicate them yeah what I mean I mean it's back to that like issue about masculinity all different shapes and sizes you know and I'll still say that the the the best decision I've ever made in my life either for everything I've done places or been the best decision I've ever made is to go vegan and to acknowledge that and you know what you don't even have to get out of bed before you're doing something good for the environment good for animals and it's a really liberating feeling to know that because I mean we've I mean I don't think there's anybody out there listening to that it doesn't have some sort of connection with animals whether it's a dog or a cat or you go out to a farm you've been to Africa or whatever it might be you can't look in the eyes of an animal and deny that animal doesn't want the same thing as us it wants safety and once shelter wants to live without suffering it wants to live with that have to line up and get and walk into a slaughterhouse just like any other person would and I think we're gonna look back we're gonna look back at some stage and be ashamed of what we've done as a species and you know it's [ __ ] good to be on the right side of history rich what do you think is the biggest stumbling block for for most people and wrapping their heads around going vegan honestly acknowledging the truth because you flash up the you know the the the story or the video of where meat actually comes from people like pushing I turn it off what I want to see it don't want to see it people don't want to know people don't want to acknowledge the truth and know it they just don't want to listen to it and you know if you really let your own guard down internally let your guard down and analyze yourself and and just do you really want to be a person that pays somebody else to do something to animals you're not willing to do yourself and you know I think if we just take the time to reflect and have a think about what's on our plate and where did that come from and what did it go through to get there you know anyone with any conscience we wouldn't want that happening to their own child and my mother their father their brother their sister so why would you want it happening to something else yeah not only something else honey that just doesn't have the ability to defend itself yeah certainly this movement is on the rise more and more people are adopting this lifestyle but there's still a long way to go for full mainstream adaptation to it I think there's a long way to go but you know we're a species that responds well to crisis and I think you know as a we've been Dara and graves with our teeth as a civilization and I think we're starting to understand that when we look at global warming and we look at the effect that the meat industry is having on our planet and on our health we not [ __ ] stupid we know what we're doing we just don't acknowledge it and I think as we get further and further into the corner people are starting to wake up and it's cool it's it's actually exciting my it is you know I come here to LA I go to New York wherever and I'm talking vegan restaurants and all these red dots pop up and you walk in you can't get a bloody seat anyway you know and it's it's a good thing man good things are happening by good people and it's catching on yeah and and young people are are really on board with this and in a way that my generation isn't which is exciting as you know what and funny you should mention that because so many people say oh you know we've got to get the children involved that's where the future is that's [ __ ] everybody it's never too late to change ok we can't rely on the children to fix this the next generation it's everyone's responsibility and everyone's responsibility now just because we've done something for 50 60 70 years that may not have been right it doesn't matter too late to change and you know it's it's a very liberating thing when you get with the program how old is your son now I've got a five year old son and got a young daughter as well my daughter - I don't know so what is the world that you would like to see for them you know I'd like them to be able to grow up in in a world where animals are not treated as commodities where animals are given the right to live out their lives as as as we would like to live out ours and that is you know the flow-on effects when we have that compassion towards animals and protect the environment is is I think a much happier world first of all to live in yeah it's amazing work that you're doing I would presume that you're here in the States trying to raise funds and awareness right so if people are listening to this and they want to learn more they want to get involved they want to contribute or donate how do they do that yeah thanks thanks for asking that rich mate yeah you know I'm going to come over here three times a year and do a bunch of lectures around the country fundraisers this trip is a short one two weeks on the ground and if anybody wants to know more information they can go to WWII a PFG org or type in anti-poaching into google that will come up the International anti-poaching foundation yeah it's it's no donation is too small or too big I'll throw that one in but uh yeah we really appreciate all the people around the world that make the work that we do on the ground possible and what do you most need the funds for like how would you deploy those funds if you could meet all of your budgetary dreams so at the moment we are scaling up the UH cachinga program as we're about what what we do is we we buy the long-term leases in collaboration with the local community of these hunting areas and we're looking to purchase the the place next door now and that's going to cost us just over three hundred thousand US dollars a year to run and that means that we'll there will be a twenty five year lease on that area so for 25 years and we'll renew it again after that that'll be 50 years that hunting will not take place on there and animals can just do what animals to go about go about their lives we've got a 2025 vision of having 20 areas that have been reclaimed from trophy hunting it'll take a thousand women to manage and protect and putting six point seven million dollars a year into the local communities it seems like it's super scalable right to take the the training techniques that you have and deploy them to groups of women in different communities you know across Africa and beyond and also it seems like a system that would work well for other types of endeavors beyond animal protection might if funny you should mention so well we go into an area a conservation area in a small country in southern Africa and able to switch the dynamics in the local community where law enforcement is involved and in a much more positive way a much more cost-effective way and we don't need helicopters and more guns and bigger fences we have in those conversations but if we can do this in a conservation setting imagine what we can do but you're outside of conservation beyond concentration beyond Zimbabwe I think it's really exciting to see what this program is gonna go yeah and what are the differences country to country you know when you go to the neighboring countries outside of Zimbabwe as the the legal landscape change is poaching different they're 56 countries on the continent every one is different so I'm in better ways some and worse look every current we are operating now in Kenya Mozambique South Africa and Zimbabwe we just did a trial leadership training program in Uganda last week so we're constantly having a deal and in different climates different settings different languages cultures and political structures so we we actually have a matrix where we assess what we're going to do and where we're going to do it and why and political will is a very high scoring metric in in that calculator if you want to call it that and you know did it's a very powerful thing when you have political will behind you and in favor of conservation and it's a huge hurdle when you don't yeah what's the biggest obstacle or hurdle that you're facing like short term right now that you're trying to overcome so coming funding is always a it's always a tough struggle where an organization that has some of the best people in the industry at ground level running the programs and trailblazing in conservation and then you know we've been less successful in in hiring the fundraisers or or getting our head around it ourselves and you know it's just it's been a struggle on this this side of the pond in terms of getting funding and you know we have a really simple scalable model that is working in a way that is more effective than any other operation I've been involved with before pioneering it's a viable economic alternative for trophy hunting we've shifted the strategy of conservation to put female empowerment at the top is the most effective single dollar to be spent in community development and conservation became the byproduct we are lifting up communities putting a majority of conservation funding into Community Development and you know on top of all that the program is is a is a launchpad using some of the most powerful ambassadors we have in these societies driving a plant-based vegan message at grassroots brew rural level and you know no big change in history ever started from the top down it always comes from the grassroots ice always alright well let's close this down parting words for somebody who's listening to this who perhaps is coming into this awareness for the first time had no idea these things are going on in Africa is new to the vegan message is interested in taking that first step getting involved as an activist or just in terms of their own personal consumer choices every single day what do you what can you leave for that person it look I mean we can't change the world by ourselves we can do it together and that starts with with changing the things in our world and changing them for the better we can't protect any every animal but we can protect the ones that are in our lives and I think it just if we just open up to ourselves and acknowledge the truth of where our food comes from and and the suffering that is happening to animals out there if we just acknowledge that as individuals I think the world would be a much better place hopefully one day I'll be out of bloody work you know because because animals aren't being threatened animals aren't being treated as commodities they've been treated as people and people that deserve our protection I think that's everyone's responsibility we have to we have to train men and women up to certain levels with various skills and arm them and send them out into the bush risking their life every day to protect animals the simple way to protect them isn't - stick em in your mouth you know and we can all do that that's the power that we all have and it's a it's a powerful thing powerful indeed super inspirational thank you for everything that you do you're doing incredible work so for everybody that's listening please explore Damien's world and what he's doing get involved contribute donate if you haven't already please watch his TED talk also the 60 minutes piece on the on the hawkish Ginga I'll link those up in the show notes so you can learn more and come back and talk to me again my friend rich thanks very much man thanks for what you do and the message the drive and everyone out there - for those sitting on the fence you know just keep keep reading keep educating yourself because once the shadows come up they never go down again peace plants [Music] you [Music]

Channel: Rich Roll

Views: 26,032

Keywords: rich roll, vegan, health, fitness, diet, nutrition, athlete, podcast, inspiration, motivation, plantpower, plant-based, wellness, spirituality, mindfulness, meditation, self-help, activist, Africa, Akashinga, animal activist, animal welfare, animals, anti-poaching, Australian, The Brave Ones, bushmeat, compassion, conservation, crusader, Damien Mander, elephants, IAPF, International Anti-Poaching Foundation, Iraq war, military, rangers, rhino, Rich Roll, sniper, special ops, vegan sniper, wildlife, women

Id: 4zwJm0ediIY

Length: 80min 30sec (4830 seconds)

Published: Tue Jan 29 2019