Cultish - Jinger Duggar Vuolo: Disentangling From The Cult-Like Teachings of Bill Gothard

hey what's up everyone this is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co-hosts here at coltish if you're listening into the podcast and you've been wondering uh looking for a way to help disentangle if you have experienced spiritual abuse if you've come from of a background of a cult a coltish group oppressive legalism we're going to be doing a part of a special conference in Simpsonville Kentucky this upcoming July that we're very honored to be part of it's hosted by Jennifer Brewer who is one of our previous guests Andrew tell him about our appearance at what we're going to be talking about at this conference in July absolutely it's called the called to Freedom conference and at this conference there'll be uh table discussions speeches Jerry and I will be giving speeches as well uh how to have a correct identity in Christ and also how to get into a good church there's going to be inspiring testimonies of people thriving in Christ after hyper fundamentalism panel discussions and even a game night and yeah it's July 28th through 29th in Simpsonville Kentucky and it's titled again the called to Freedom conference 2023 and where can they go to to sign up for this conference Jerry yeah so whether if you're listening to the podcast check out the description we'll have links in our description uh go to that if you use the passcode coltish at checkout you can get a substantial discount off of that ticket or if you are watching it on YouTube you can go ahead and check out the link in the description and if you use the Pasco culture set checkout you can get a substantial discount off of that ticket again we are very excited because one of our Missions at Colchester Inception is to help people who have experienced spirit spiritual abuse who have experienced that sort of a precedent oppressiveness from a oppressive background with its legalism whether it's coldish activity we want to help you disentangle versus deconstruct that's been a huge passion of ours and we'll be we're going to be doing workshops we're going to be doing some like I said public speaking events very excited about that like I said check out the links in our description all that being said enjoy this long way of podcast with ginger Duggar as she talks about her own uh disentanglement enjoy this podcast [Music] all right welcome back a coldish ladies and gentlemen my name's Jeremiah Roberts one of the co-hosts here super excited about this episode I'm here alongside my trusted co-host Ann super suth Andrew the super sleuth of the show how are you doing man I'm doing well man it's good to see you Jerry it's been a while excellent less than a while I'm very excited we have a guest with us today we have uh Ginger dugavala with us today and your husband is joining us and remind me again of your husband's name this is Jeremy Jeremy awesome well thank you so much for both for uh taking the time to come on I know you've been making the rounds I've seen you on Ali Beth Stuckey you've been on Good Morning America uh really excited to talk to you about your new book um real quickly uh could you just in case anyone like myself maybe I'm the only person who hasn't seen it hasn't seen the show that you grew up on can you just give the quick uh LinkedIn bio kind of yourself uh who you are and I'll just talk just a little bit about your book because that's what we're going to talk about in this podcast today yeah so thank you for having us um yeah so a little bit about my story is I grew up um on TV from the age of 10 until just a couple years ago and so I lived a very public life but also I was raised um under the teachings of a man named Bill Gothard and um he taught a lot of things that were based on man-made rules and put in me um a a fear that was not healthy it wasn't healthy fear of God but it was just more of a terror of God feeling like at any moment if I step outside of this box God is going to punish me for something even if I didn't know I did something wrong so I grew up under this like fear-based um teaching and it was interesting to like walk through that in the public eye as well like pushing those principles from Bill Gothard and so this book um becoming free indeed is a story of my faith journey and how I've had to disentangle um truth from error on my way to finding Freedom yes okay yeah and it's very interesting and look when I listened to I mentioned this to you before just before we started is that um listening just to your interview on uh Ali bastaki like I had no people started tagging me uh in your social media we started when you started announcing the book like I said I had no idea who you even were I had actually never watched the show and so I was like oh who's this person about and I didn't even know the specifics of what you were in but then when it was Bill Gothard it brought back a flood of memories just because I I grew up in uh sort of The Homeschool movement uh Purity culture like I'm a byproduct of that too so I really resonate with a lot of what you said in your book for anyone who doesn't know could you just explain who Bill Gothard was and the kind of how he came to prominence uh talk about that because you do talk about that in your book yeah Bill Gothard came on the scene in the 60s and 70s he was promising families a guarantee for success and this was in the middle of the the time where parents were like trying to keep their kids from sex drugs rock and roll sexual Revolution was happening and they were like how can we protect our kids given the best foundation for life and so a lot of them were looking for an answer and Bill Gothard came on the scene as the one with all the answers to Life's questions and so it's just a very simple recipe book so if you put in this you're gonna get this outcome so your kids will turn out if you follow these principles or if you weren't married you could follow these principles for dating which wasn't dating it was courtship at that time so he would say for courtship to find your spouse or if you're in financial troubles follow my teachings and um and those who I'm you know associating with Jim Simmons all his teachings and you'll have Financial Freedom and you'll God will bless your life um physically spiritually yeah financially really like he would do it was health wealth and prosperity even though I would have rejected that term I would have definitely said oh we we reject that okay um but that's that's really what it almost came down to okay how go ahead Andrew real quick Jerry how did his uh teaching spread back then because the internet wasn't really around was he just going from local church to local church and talking to pastors and being allowed to stay on the pulpit and teach how exactly that work so Bill Gothard would fill stadiums he started out in small churches so there were a couple people who would have him come share these um Basic Youth conflict seminars and then it just grew so quick that he started filling stadium so churches would send buses full of people um down to these seminars to hear these teachings because I think in a sense like it was an interesting time like I said that shift was happening parents were kind of freaking out like what do we do kids are getting mixed up in bad stuff or um how do we keep them from sin so a lot of them were looking for these answers and on the surface these teachings looked really promising yeah they seemed based in scripture when you listen to a couple things here and there it's like yeah I see how he could use that verse maybe maybe it's a little out of context I'm not sure but like it sounded plausible and so a lot of parents got wrapped up in this teaching sent their families their pastors sending their churches to his teachings to his seminars but within those Seminars the interesting thing was people would leave having made vows to God to you know not not drink alcohol to um like avoid you know whatever it was don't don't do birth control you know avoid debt um make single service commitments to God to like not get married for a certain period of years you know it's like all these things that you would leave feeling like wow like I just made this vow to God uh um because you thought it was based on scripture and so his teaching started out kind of okay but the further in you've got you realized wow this is really harmful yeah um what now you you said he was around 12 years old when the show started 19 Kids and Counting um when that show started I was a little bit older but whenever the the TV side of things started we had documentaries okay um Discovery Health and I was 10 when that started but as far as like your entire upbringing like your parents were into Bill gothard's teachings from the moment from your earliest moment yes that we were we were in um Bill gothard's teaching like all of my life I was in it uh my parents got introduced to it uh when they were newly married so that was the foundation for um raising all of us kids was authors teaching hey everyone sorry to interrupt your programming but this episode of the podcast is brought to you by stagsconsulting.com are you a small business owner or entrepreneur if you are you know the different hassles and headaches that come with trying to keep uh up to date with your accounting uh bookkeeping all that sort of stuff uh Kyle and Sherry they specialize in helping to deal that to take away the stress the headaches the uncertainty to make sure you are fully compliant and they have a lot of other services available if you want to check them out go to stagsconsulting.com forward slash cultist they're gonna they would give you a free consultation for listeners only and go ahead and check them out again stacksconsulting.com forward slash cultish definitely check them out back to the episode and what's your earliest memory of Bill gother specifically anything that he taught because I know I know I remember what he told me his teaching like all said like resonated with me and made me very fearful but for you like what was the very first thing that you heard him teach that was like oh wow this is something I need to really pay attention to that would give an understanding of like his teaching and how he would come across to people or the appeal that he had at that time it's interesting because since I was raised in it from before I could talk um I think it his words were like the words of God to me I thought seven people around me would say oh I think he is a prophet sent from God to tell us this truth that we would have had otherwise and I would have rejected that idea like as you know a teen even I would have thought like that would have been bad for anyone else but because it was Bill Gothard for some reason I allowed that in my mind to think maybe he is a prophet Sin from God to tell us so I don't know like one exact teaching I mean there were some things that were um in my mind as I was figuring out well as a Believer once I was saved at the age of 14 I really genuinely wanted to please God and I was trying to figure out okay how do I do that like I want to know God more I want to um and know the word of God better and so a lot of those principles that I had been taught beforehand before I was even saved um it that became the focal point for me because I thought if this is how I'm gonna please God I'm going to lean in further to this so I want to just get to know these principles better I want to um make sure that I'm staying under Authority I think Authority was probably the biggest thing for me and authority meaning like we all are under the authority of God under the authority of um others that were you know working under whatever but his view of authority was worked because it basically said that adult children for however long you're in the home you should stay in the home if you're a woman until you're married so some people 40 years old never married you're not allowed to work outside the home you need to serve your family at home until you get married so um a lot of those things I had in my mind I also felt like if I didn't share um every single thing with my parents maybe I wasn't gonna be okay um if I didn't um everything that was going on my mind or if I it's it there's a balance in all this right so like he would share elements of Truth like um in honoring parents but what does that mean so like even once you're married what does that mean to honor your parents so he would he would take it further and he would twist and say if you do anything like if a girl um was to get a job outside the home then um she before she was married or even if she was married there's no room for that so basically he would talk about umbrellas and so he would say God's up here parents here because here she goes outside of that if she's out from underneath her parents protection then she's directly opened up to Satan's attacks there's no protection for you yeah so that was drilled into my mind and I thought for sure that's truth so I need to stay as far away from that as possible yeah um and so I was very I was probably like one of the most sensitive people I don't know maybe in my family so I'm a rule follower so if that was an inch on a skirt I would be like oh no I can't sit down with this skirt on because you know it'll barely show like a quarter of money and it was like I was like a legalist to the extreme because that's what Bill Gothard said would protect you it would provide protection for your life yeah and I think I heard this I don't know I I tried to binge through as much content as I could on YouTube Just on Bill Gothard I mean other influencers besides yourself people who uh if I mention the names you may know them but one of the things I think I heard mentioned in passing was the fact that Bill Gothard claimed to had gotten these Revelations when he would go out like in fast like out in the woods or something of that nature um yeah so I yeah I don't know exactly all of where he said he got it from I know different times he would come back from his 40-day fast to the beginning of the year every year he would fast for 40 days um and so I know multiple times like I I would go have interactions with Bill Gothard whenever I would go to the Northwoods Michigan or to his headquarters and he would have these Revelations which he would call ramas which were given to him from God um and and so he would hold to that and say well I have this new team so whenever we would go we were kind of almost expect what is what is as say you know Mr cother what is Mr Gothard going to be on this time like yeah what new revelation you're gonna have um and so it would be something crazy it would be like you know Seven Deadly stresses um or sins that cause stress and disease and so he would go into how these diseases are caused by specific sins of like bitterness will cause this disease and he would link everything it was always coming up with something new yeah and just so you know too when you mentioned the authority like that visually even like my mind's eye when I was maybe like 11 years old when I went to the first seminar like I know that slideshow well it was always weird too that the summer I went to it wasn't him it was just the video of him talking the whole time um which honestly all these years later I'm like that's kind of weird I remember as a kid too I was like why doesn't he just show up here and talk to us why does he have to have a video going on but maybe that was a way they're just trying to get his message out you know they started trying to utilize that technology but just real quickly and Andrew I'm going to let you jump in here um one of my first experiences myself you might get a crack out of this is that my parents you know I love them they did their best to raise me up in the admonition of the Lord and I think at that time they had come out of the hippie 1970s movement you know they were go to doors concerts and all this sort of stuff they got saved and they they I think they definitely pendulum swung to be over you know protective and that sort of stuff but um I remember I had a secret Affinity like I had my own Walkman I had a secret affinity for certain bands specifically Van Halen um and so I remember listening in my headphones on the way to the Bill Gothard conference and listening to Van Halen I think the song Panama and like that day is when he started talking about the inherent evils of rock and roll music and I was terrified like I put my headphones away I put in the bottom of my desk I didn't even like touch it for like three weeks I was afraid to listen I was afraid to listen to any music on the radio because he was talking about house about the different wavelengths and like house plants and like if you do the wrong because they would take and also he took the scripture and Rebellion is as a sin of Witchcraft so I thought that if I listened to any music I was going to invoke demons on myself and it was until like four weeks later I managed I somehow managed listening to it again but that just goes to show you like on the like your interview initially just it brought up so many memories like that and so many other people resonate with that too yeah for sure because that kind of fear wrapped around like it would be any you know kind of music with a certain beat or um with drums you know that it would it would he would say that it was going to kill the house plants yes if you if you put this music there to kill the house plants and then it will bring it will bring demons I remember one time I was in Central America with some friends and um one of the people there on the trip was also in Bill gothard's teaching and and one of the kids got up there and started um drumming on these drums that were at this this uh church and she comes running in Stomp the drums stop the drums and they were like what like she's like you don't know what you're doing like it's like a nuclear reactor went off or something yeah because she was so afraid I was gonna call demons and it's just it's so sad because um that mindset you become paranoid about everything around you to your point where I mean I shared this multiple times because it's so interesting but like he would even say a picture on a wall could be bring you harm even a painting of it like he talks about a sailboat this woman her husband and Sons went off to see they died at Sea and and this pastor comes in to talk to her and she's like why did they die and he said it's because this picture of sailboat's on your wall yeah you shouldn't have that that's why they died they wanted to go to see they saw this picture went to see and died it's your fault so you start to think in that that way about everything in your life Andrew uh what are your what are your thoughts are now man yeah it kind of leads into this question actually like how how did you view the outside world uh Ginger and other uh Christians who weren't submissive to Bill gothard's teachings because I know a lot of times when people grow up in like a legalistic type of culture there can be almost like a a separation between the two and it sounds like to me like Bill Gothard doesn't allow for like a personal conviction uh given from the the person but it's more of like his Revelations that become convictions for others how does that Dynamic work in inside a large family as well because you have to live peaceably uh among a large family but it seems like that can be really uh stressful like a stressful environment so it's kind of like two-fold question yeah because I think it whenever you look at all of his followers everyone has the same convictions about everything which is something that you're able to talk about he noticed that right away we'll have to get into that because um it's interesting like I viewed the outside world as kind of like a okay I want to reach them I want to share these principles with the world because this is going to help and so if I saw a Christian who um was walking with Jesus I had some friends who were like walking with Jesus but they did think differently they listened to music with drums they were the women were they would wear pants um they wouldn't you know have as many kids as possible things like that but look at them and be like they just don't know but wait until their kids start to Rebel then they'll come to build Gothard for all the answers to help their rebelling kids because it's guaranteed success for their kids so I would kind of look and like judge the anyone outside but also realize like okay people can still be Christians outside of this but they just won't have success and so I would look at the outside world as well and be kind of scared of like influences scared of being around anyone too long who wasn't exactly like me in my convictions um and it is interesting because within the family setting I think we all had this mindset of like Okay um we want to abide by these principles so I had a very happy childhood um although inwardly like all the things I was wrestling with um was so much fear and a wrong view of God but my parents like sought to point as kids to Jesus as the answer and never said it was about Works um but although Bill gothard's teaching he would he would say like he said one of his seminars before you come to Jesus you need to clean up this mess yeah so do these and then come to Jesus which is just like I could not I could not believe what I heard when I was listening to these seminars years after coming out of it I was like how could I ever say that was okay because I never believed that salvation was something you could do um besides prayer but um it's like I I always like thought that was like okay I guess listening to those teachings each year so it's so shocking for me to go back and listen and say like wait what did he say this is so terrible um yeah and as far as like Jeremy it was interesting when he he had just visited a seminar um or not a seminar sorry a conference in Big Sandy where my brother-in-law he met my brother-in-law who was um in the same theology as chair so Jared shows up at this thing he rolls up to see my brother-in-law having no clue about Bill Gothard no clue about what this conference was and he shows up and I'll let him talk about that it's kind of crazy yeah it was just it was like you asked about convictions yeah and how did people it was interesting they everyone had the exact same convictions about everything and it wasn't like I was showing up to like um you know some some conference where um you know it's like you'd expect that like you know uh whatever right uh uh five Solas conference it's like okay everybody's gonna believe in the five solids here right like this was okay just a family conference so this is all the families come to hang out every spring and I'm looking around going pretty quickly like wow everyone has the same convictions about having as many kids about money about clothes about music about food yeah about entertainment or and so I would ask and they'd be like well this is just God's God God is just convicting me of this just my personal conviction I'm going that's interesting because every other person has the exact on issues by the way which are not spoken to in scripture or just peripherally like oh oh there's one verse yeah you've interpreted this way yeah and I noticed pretty quickly like but I think this will go into some of the deeper issues too of like why I started to feel like this was problematic was I saw a Ministry whose foundational building blocks like the foundation and the ministry a wasn't Christ and then B were issues that the scripture speaks nothing or hardly on yeah and I started realizing okay so something else is forming these people's convictions even though I think genuinely they believe it is their Spirit Rock conviction like I think for sure you think but something else is at play here other than the word of God hey what's up everyone we love that you are enjoying our content on a weekly basis but this program cannot continue and wouldn't be possible without your support so if you want to go to the cultistshow.com there is a donate tab you can either support us one time or you can become a monthly partner with us that will allow us to continue this program allow us to continue to be Salt and Light to the kingdom of the Cults so please go to the cultistshow.com forward slash donate and you can support us one time or monthly also make sure you check out our merchandise store go to shopcoultish.com you can see all of our great designs a lot of you have gotten merchandise from us already so again you either go to shopcoultice.com and check out all the awesome merch back to the show yeah and yeah and I just want to say this too because even like me looking back all these years later and thinking the families that I knew that were in ATI that's that's what it became that's it initially was The Institute Basic Youth conflicts and then it became ATI yeah okay yeah it's funny because that just all these memories here but like the family is that even I knew like I still love and have so much respect from for them to this day and I think that's at least for me I think it'd be good to important at least at least clarify is that like your parents I think so many others who are into Bill God there's teachings like they have the right motives they saw you know what was going on in the world and was like man I need to try and protect my kids from this and train them in a better way um but sometimes people tend to over correct for sure uh Jeremy I got a question first of all how did you how did you meet how did you meet Ginger and like how did you guys meet and then what was it was it all of a sudden it's like oh how do I date her do I quarter how does this work like explain the process for me too because we're going to talk about you know what we talk about your book so the short version basically I was I was in living in San Antonio Texas and I was playing professional soccer but had an eye on the ministry so um I was actually living with a local Pastor there okay and his family would watch the show 19 Kids and Counting at times I was a pretty big critic of it I just thought you know just kiddingly like I just thought this what is this reality stuff and um so one day I'm uh coming home I lived with at that point I had moved out um and I lived with a few guys in the church there and someone calls me and says you'll never guess who's at your house because every Sunday night we'd have a little get-together and say uh Ben and Jessa Seawall and I'm like okay like rings a bell so I walk in and I I think I don't remember if I like recognize them immediately or not but I definitely was familiar because the the pastor's family had watched the show so I just started talking to Ben and Ben and I just hit it off like we're just two guys and he was interested because I was preaching a lot at the time and he wanted to go into Ministry and so he actually said hey man let me get your number and over the next few weeks we just kind of kept in touch and um he invited me out to so I was in Texas I was on the border of Mexico or just two and a half of San Antonio but I'd also preach in Laredo Texas yeah he invited me out to this family conference in Dallas about I don't know five six hours away and just to hang out with him his wife Jessa um for a couple days so I thought why not you know so went up there and that's when I met Ginger and so that was the start of 2015. it wasn't until like December of 2015 that we really showed interest and like started to to talk and that's why I went to her dad and asked his permission if I could just get to know her um and so we did this whole like recording process um and that was that was you know a different world for me I I grew up in sort of the Reformed Baptist world yeah me too we got touched on the fringes by like the Josh Harris stuff and like um but Ginger was far more familiar with like Purity culture and all that yeah and I was a little bit but I didn't know really what hoarding entailed um and so anyway that's kind of how we met but my first time like entering her world was just rolling up through that to that Big Sandy conference and it was like um I mean it was like stepping into a Utopia like all of a sudden you're you're on the secular Highway you turn into this campus yeah and you've had like the holy land and people are happy people are uh it's like a communal group you know and people are coming with you just over the moon and really sweet people that's something that I know Jeremiah you mentioned a minute ago and like like so many in that in that setting loved Jesus genuinely yeah like our person um I think which is why um and I know just as Ginger shared her heart with me she's felt such a responsibility to not come after them like not to speak intuitively about but to get after Bill Gothard for the dangerous teams that honestly is harming those genuine loving you know people who are pursuing Holiness pursuing Christ um now of course there's some amongst there who who don't as well but yeah yeah for me it was kind of shocking um and I think I immediately called my dad like maybe a couple days later and my dad had attended some Bill Gothard conferences so he was somewhat familiar yeah but I think a couple days it never stuck with him it was yeah it kind of took over right yeah it is interesting because I think some people go to a couple seminars and they're like ah no I don't think I want to go back because they kind of like they have the word of God to to that's enough and so I think when he starts to go further further he like he swept the nation like yeah it really was tons of people sent their churches there even if they were like solid churches they still would send their people there thinking okay this guy sounds really good and he's so popular now and so it's just really sad I've talked to a lot of pastors over the years who are like they attended two or three because it was kind of the country and then something they picked something up and go whoa what is like it doesn't pass like the biblical sniff test like they're like something's off here so they just kind of casually like move on um but yeah so my dad was kind of in that boat like oh yeah I attended a couple and um so but he really didn't have much knowledge about it either so it took a while for me to understand yeah and also yeah no I appreciate that man and also Andrew I'm gonna let you jump here in a second but uh just so the process was uh junior you talked about your book you guys can both elaborate on this together um that uh it was in the process you know you made a decision you want to pursue her um specifically in courtship and I I grew up in that world too like I went to several Josh Harris you know uh seminars but even but even pre-ikest day and goodbye when he was just in that world like he was sort of I call him like the Justin Timberlake of homeschooling um but yeah that's like the way I describe him but you know that in that world like you have to go through the parents and you go through this very supervised uh you know process you know to pursue uh marriage um you know talk about that but also you said you the prerequisite so you had to consume roughly 60 hours of Bill gothard's teaching and content as prerequisite right yeah I was asked to go through um the seminars and listen to those um and I'm I'm really glad I did because uh it gave me like a really really helpful understanding of of Ginger's worldview and where she was coming from and it also facilitated really helpful conversations but um yeah I started listening to the seminars started taking notes on those um and just yeah every week was was taken in the Bill Gothard lectures it really is crazy though because I think that was um the biggest blessing from God really is that he did understand he started to understand for one that he didn't know when he got into this what it was because that would have been enough for him to be like uh bad theology I'm out right he knew that um I loved Jesus and I had a commitment to the word of God so that was enough for him to like once he realized what it was he was like well if she's convinced by the word of God about something I think that um you know she's going to follow Jesus so he could see through which was it was just the the Providence the mercy of God that that was the path that we walked because well yeah it was crazy so like when he gets into the these teachings he's it's crazy he just starts to see more and more of how damaging it is um but that was that was only after he well I've gotten to know I'd gotten a seat like I got to see who this incredible woman was and once I met her and then started to see like this that her humility her compassion for others her love like I'm falling in love with this girl uh then realizing like as I'm falling in love with this girl I'm realizing some of the theology yeah but then as I'm interacting with her realizing like oh but she you know what I I honestly felt like if if I follow Jesus through his word I think like her heart from everything I'm learning and seeing she just wants to follow Jesus through his word yeah and so it gave me a confidence like her ultimate Allegiance as you see today like and as you read in her book her ultimate Allegiance is to Christ and so she may be helped by a teacher she may be helped by you know God gives gifts to his church of preachers and evangelists pastors teachers um great but her ultimate Allegiance isn't Paul or Apollos it's following Christ and I saw that um early on which like she alluded to a second ago I think I could have probably been like scared Away by Gothard because you start listening and you start going wait what you believe like you believe this like what did he what did he say but then as we would interact on it uh she she wanted to be challenged and she wanted to go to the word of God um and so that just gave me like it confirmed what I was already seeing like this this girl's rock solid like she loves Christ and wants to follow it's interesting too because at the same time Jeremy is an outsider right like he's he's a different world and there there could be a lot of fear there marrying somebody who doesn't perfectly align with what you see in scripture and being afraid of like okay well when we're raising kids are we gonna have like major differences in this because we we talk through all that but it's still in your mind it's the fear of um like a scripture being enough really and trusting in God and trusting in um his work in us and so Jeremy it was interesting whenever I was talking to my mom I remember we came back from missions trip where he was on a mission to get to know me better there um and I was there to be on a mission's trip share the gospel no I'm kidding but I had my mission that I it was uh it was interesting because when I came back from that though I told my mom I said this this guy said I feel like he just I would I feel safe with him in this sense I I feel safe with him not because of like any outward things or he he says the right things he does the right things but he has a heart that that loves Jesus and he's committed to the word of God that's his authority so that was where I felt safe because I always had this fear I think especially through like a lot that I walked through like am I gonna find someone who I'll feel safe with because it is in this world you see so many marriages breaking up and ending in you know terrible tragedy and people turning out to not be who they they say they are and so in that I told him I said I feel safe with chair and so that was something that God gave me really early on to where I knew okay I see his commitment to the Bible I see that he loves Jesus and I'm not afraid anymore because I think that fear had really gripped me and especially in gothard's teaching you're so taught that like okay everybody has to be the same or you're not going to be okay which is just not true and so many of my friends I think fell into that yeah and were afraid to um to stand up for like let the word of God speak for itself and and let um don't feel like you have to impose like even parenting and all of these decisions you're going to make throughout life together that God's word is sufficient and so I could see that even though I may have not believed it at that point entirely like I was still scared in a sense of like the later on decisions of parenting or life together yeah but I knew this man loved Jesus hey everyone if you are watching this right now on apology Studios YouTube channel you need to know that cultist would not be possible if it wasn't for this studio so if you want to support apology Studios which also makes cultish a possibility for you to enjoy every single week here on YouTube go to apologiesstudios.com you can become an all-access member and you'll also get a lot of great additional content which will also help support the studio which will allow cultists to be a possibility as well on a weekly basis so thank you all for watching us and now back to the episode Andrew what questions you have yeah uh what's in your mind it's a yeah it's amazing to see God's uh sovereignty in his hand like that holds his people throughout their lives like Jeremy being brought into Ginger's life here during a time where people are deconstructing really from the faith but it seems like God placed you and her life to go through disentanglement instead of deconstruction so I want to hear a little bit about how that Dynamic happened within your guys's uh relationship and really where uh Ginger when did you start having doubts in Bill Gothard and when did you start feeling uh that you were becoming free in Christ like when Christ sets us free we are free indeed and how is Jeremy involved in that I'd love to hear that from both of you yeah it's interesting like we said when we were going through those teachings together uh we we would start a seminar Jared start one and we were on Zoom because we're long distance and stuff but he he would like start a seminar and yeah it wasn't soon um but anyhow it was interesting because we would he would start the seminar and then he would pause it and he'd be like wait what did he say and and is this is this based in the Bible and it was interesting because the second he said Bill Gothard is not a Bible teacher I was like whoa yeah the conversation that was early on because she yeah she asked me she said so what you've been listening to all these lectures and I said at that point I was pretty fresh in so I was still kind of trying to find my way through but I think just that he's got some interesting things to say about like humanism and like because that he really did attack in his Advanced seminars he attacks humanism which is like a fatalistic you know kind of nihilistic you know thought and and which isn't a bad thing no no it's like a very hope draining like people who are are ingesting humanism are are hopeless like so he's attacking that so I'm listening to this stuff going okay but I told her I was like he's not you know he's got some interesting things to say but he's not a Bible teacher like he's not working through the word of God and like handling scripture and for her that was like yeah it kind of was something that in our minds we you never say because it's always protected you protect this this mindset build author being a prophet from God so once that kind of was out of my mind I think just going to the word of God for myself for the for really the first time with these teachings because I thought I had done that but I hadn't and so the second he would say something we'd pause it it felt like every 30 seconds we were pausing this thing I mean it could be every 10 seconds because of the amount of stuff that was totally opinion based not based in scripture and uh it was interesting because that was like an aha moment I guess you'd say but like the Lord was opening my eyes to see at this teaching is not what the Bible actually says and so that's praying for me but it was it took so many years to totally like walk out of that and like like you just said like disentangling you know versus deconstructing yeah so many people today have grown up in settings where a teacher claimed to speak for God but didn't and they will come out of that you know burned by the church burned by anybody who claims to speak or teach something that is based in the Bible or whatever and they will tear their faith down to the studs never to build it up again and that's what we see time and time again happening yeah and it's so sad and it's very heartbreaking and I think a lot of people may use that term deconstruction in a way where they're saying like exactly what you know my my journey has been because they're like what word do I use you know so they'll use it but I think sadly that has happened so many times where it's like what do I do I've been burned or I've been confused about what the Bible actually says yeah so they just consider their faith part but disentangling this journey has been one of sting what okay God's word actually says and um I share this illustration because it's like if you get putty stuck in your hair you can just shave your head cut off the putty or you can take the time to pick out the putty even if it takes all day it's a slow process it's a painful process but it's it's necessary and so I see that as what my journey has been like it's been difficult because there are days where you know I'll think about like we have a four and two-year-old and I'm like okay I know what these principles are that I would do this it's like a guarantee for success and you can you can think about that and it's scarier having to walk out of these things and say the Bible is sufficient because then relying on the word of God you're relying on the Holy Spirit too for like convictions things like that where um I want to glorify God and so what does that look like I'm not going to trust in a man's opinion to say this is going to guarantee my kids success guarantee they're gonna love Jesus yeah like that that can feel really safe but it's not the safe answer yeah the word of God is worthy yeah and so yeah yeah so that's been that's been my journey no no thank you for sharing that and uh one thing I want to talk about because a big thing that Bill Gothard did emphasize what we mentioned earlier was the aspect of authority um that also would mean the authority of his teachings as he had special Insight that you spoke with authority from uh in the process ginger as you know you're talking with Jeremy you're kind of going through this whole process of trying to rethink everything was there any would you say there might have been like any sort of like Duality between like reading what the Bible actually says versus trying to disentangle yourself from the fear that you actually were going against Authority by measuring Bill God their teachings is against the word of God and if so like could you explain what they looked like for you yeah it is interesting because I think in that time I was just I was more excited um seeing that these teachings were not based in the Bible because it kind of made sense like if your problems are guaranteed for success and then things around you like we walk through difficulties and situations where you know not all my siblings did turn out as I thought they would and was it was hard for me to see that but I think this also gave answers to the why behind it's like not every not every thing in your life is gonna go just as you think it should and even that like gave answers you know for me and and realizing God's word is trustworthy it just showed me more and more of the character and nature of who God is in his word is um true so for me there was a bit of fear in that time where I could feel like this tension right like I see this is true and I see that bogotha's teachings aren't but at the same time the authority thing yeah it was something in my mind because it it still is like um you you have that so ingrained in you that you think that if I question these teachings bog author would have said himself yeah that once you hear these teachings you need to examine them by the word of God once you see that this is true then you need to follow these principles and it would have been better for he said this he said it would have been better for you to not hear these teachings than to hear these teachings that I've taught you and depart from them yeah so that's what was in my mind and not fear still was there in in that sense but I had to like it's just just renewing my mind with truth renewing my mind with the word of God on a daily basis and I still have to do that to this day because those things that were just so deep yeah in who I am and the way I process things or don't process them um with something that I had to like work through yeah and uh but realizing that I think getting in my mind who God actually is that he's not just waiting to Smite his children at every turn for any sin or unknown sin that they may have done against him or any principle that they may have broken unknowingly that he's not just waiting to get me he's a loving heavenly father and um that's that's something that had to shift in my mind is God as a loving Heavenly Father yeah Jeremiah go ahead Andrew yeah what's awesome what it's picture but I get the picture of is that we keep talking about Authority and there's that one that we were mentioning earlier with the umbrellas we have a big God umbrella then we have the husband the wife and the children underneath that all umbrellas that that stack um but it seems like with Bill Gothard is there's a little invisible umbrella between God and husband right and then so he's filtering the word of God and then pouring that down and taking authority over the whole family it's a big authored Authority but what I find interesting in your guys's life with your Dynamic is that God actually used Authority in a correct biblical way right he like brought Jeremy into your lives which is still the man over the wife protecting right but then leading you to remove that invisible umbrella so both of you are submissive to the word of God which is quite phenomenal to me because there's still an authority structure shown in the Bible but what God did in your life is he showed you the proper realm of authority in terms of the of uh being submissive to the word of God I love that I love hearing that that's a it's a great thing and I think it can give a lot of people hope uh today just wanted to say that yeah no I appreciate that and I resonate and kind of um hearing that too just seeing how the Lord has used um Us in each other's lives Ginger and I like true Authority the one time Jesus says follow my example to his disciples we're told to follow Jesus example but the one time it comes out of his mouth is when he's on his on the ground washing their feet um servant leadership is Authority is not ruling by by power or lording over how many times are pastors warned first Peter 5 do not Lord over your congregation yeah um you are you are a servant and you see Christ uh did not drag in leadership he he came alongside and that's something that I I found myself over the years Ginger and I having a lot of conversations and I think uh Bill Gothard missed this entirely is the believer's union with Christ yeah like I I was over and over just trying to remind Ginger like no no you have to understand how God sees you he sees you in Christ yeah so unless he's not rejoicing in Christ today then then he's rejoicing anymore because he sees you how he sees his son yeah and so you're you're perfect in him if you're United to Jesus Christ you are loved embraced accepted now there's the tender there's the Hebrews 12 reality of like of course he loves you so he's gonna discipline you like like a father disciplines his kid who runs out in the middle of the street like he loves you it's vastly different than this idea of authority which was so and ginger talks about this a lot in your book but um she's she's just expressed like so much Superstition in her life yeah like I'm gonna get torched if I do something I don't even know I'm not supposed to do which is not how I mean does any father operate that way yeah like just wait for your kids to wake up watch them they do something that you never told them about and all of a sudden you you come down hard into discipline like what a what a wicked way to view fatherhood yeah and authority and so it's just an abuse of yeah no absolutely oh so I mean we're talking a lot about Authority that was a that was a really a huge emphasis on Bill gothard's teaching and again man that visual of the umbrella like I just I remember in my mind's eye even though I haven't looked at it in decades what Authority did Bill Gothard submit himself to is this something did he practice what he taught no sadly as far as I know he didn't have anyone that he was submitting himself to or accountable to no no Elders or biblical pastors paper maybe for a season he was at a church um but I don't think he was submitting himself to a local church or um having other Elders around so he was um this Authority for everyone yeah I mean he wasn't accountable to anyone I knew of um and it's just it's sad to see because you can go so far with that and but what's interesting oh sorry no and just to see if so many people too and and have no one to who you'll listen to yeah I I was just gonna say what's interesting is that that Echoes down into his adherence as well so like the the model of Bill gothard's basically having like ultimate Authority for most men that come and follow him that they're they're taking that same model and exercising um in their spheres of influence really finding no one to be author have an authority over them right exercising authorities oh yeah for sure I mean it always seems like too just if you can speaking generally the Cults of Personality whether it's a a cult leader uh like uh Jim Jones or you know whether it's a politician it always seems to be like rules for the uh not for me uh for sure and that's you know one thing that was very interesting too is that you know Bill Gothard had all this this emphasis I mean for your family of of 19 children and this is from somebody who has had never been married uh had never had any children of his own but yet he had all of the answers exactly um how to raise your children how to teach every single aspect of that did you ever see like a of interest there ever thought growing up because I remember even me when I was 11 years old I heard somewhere that he well he's not married and he doesn't have any kids so I was thinking even as a 12 year old in my brain I'm like don't you have to have some kids I mean I'm the second oldest of a big family too I'm the second oldest seven so you know my parents weren't perfect but my dad at least had some experience to put this guy who has no kids we need to listen to him it seemed even as a 12 year old I was like something's off here yeah it is interesting looking back I I could see that as being a problem but initially no I didn't even think about it because I think that's part of my mindset like I said I was so blind to like just following everything that this man said thinking he was the prophet Sin from God and so whether he had kids or not I was gonna do what he said to do with kids um it's the mindset is so interesting and and as interestingly enough like even as young kids like I thought I had all the answers at 14 I would like judge families whose families were falling apart and I was like you just need to fix things up here and there take out the rock music have your kids all live at home forever um it was in my mind like I had all the answers at 14. just as Bill Dawson had all the answers um as far as uh like your book you're even I'm assuming you've been getting feedback from the book as you've been kind of making the media rounds and people are saying wow this really resonated with you are you getting that not just from people inside Bill Gothard and ATI but there's a lot of groups even like fundamentalist groups like even you mentioned Jeremy too even I would grew up in the Reformed Baptist world as well too and the ours I got I got a small taste a little bit of some of the fundamentalism um you had like people that were in like similar movements they were like wow this is really rest me with me this is struck a chord tell if and if so just tell us about that like the feedback that you'd be getting so far from your book and how it's been how are people receiving it yeah it has been encouraging to hear stories of those who like you said are are outside of this iblp ATI world and they've been shown negatively affected by like I said a teacher who claims to speak for God but doesn't yeah I think there there's just that sadly happens a lot even within churches and things slip in or maybe there's there's a new seminar that comes out and everybody feels like it's the answer and um a lot of well-meaning Christians get wrapped up in that and I think that's where the whole story of this book is just the importance of us being committed to the Bible and letting the word of God speak for itself because I think when we get wrapped up in um this teaching where someone has an answer that's where you see the problems unfold and so I've heard so many stories from people who have been outside of this setting but have had the various similar lives to me and have been helped by the book by God's grace like been able to see through like man I'm still in this this this place where I I view God as a Taskmaster instead of as a loving father and I'm a Christian who loves Jesus but I can't figure it out and just it's it's such a difficult thing to process and so I'm really really grateful for the feedback so far yeah so one of the things I just want to ask you one I really appreciate you guys uh taking the you know go night way to make the time to talk to us today is that um in this whole world like you disentangled so many have deconstructed um I hear the stories of you know Bill Gothard and you know you do talk briefly in this book about you know some of the accusations that went against them but there's just a lot of pain a lot of harm and I've seen it I mean I talk with people from regular bases out of all sorts of different similar movements are the hat that I'm wearing right now says bad theology hurts people um a lot of people they over correct from these harmful teachings and they deconstruct they totally walk away from the faith um and I really like to think about what Walter Martin said when he said the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity um of an original and I know that there's a lot of people who know you who are in the same in the who grew up in the Bill Gothard movement and similar movements and somebody has really if they've been like are Jaden um are considering walking away from the faith or have deconstructed like if you're sitting across a table with them like how what would you say to them kind of giving your Vantage Point which is very unique um I would say I I would want them to know um that Jesus is a kind and loving savior they can run to him and I think even in that Brokenness and pain confusion hurt even those who have been harmed by like a teacher who has said something or done something really hurtful within in the name of Jesus right um they would run to run to the word of God and run to Jesus because he is there and he is um I think as as Believers for them to see like Jerry said the union with Christ being a beautiful picture that I think so many sadly haven't been able to see because they've been taught that um as a believer that that anytime they step outside of a box they're going to be they're going to be um hit they're going to be they're gonna you know Jesus is waiting to get them God's waiting to Smart them at any turn that's just such a difficult thing to like come out of and to see the union with Christ is a beautiful thing that we can grow in relationship with God and there's no you know people will always let us down and hurt us within the church outside the church anywhere but Jesus is the only one that we can run to and find Our Hope in God because um this world is full of pain and hardship and that is the only answer for us is to run to the Cross to run to us even in spite of um all the difficulties that you've walked through yeah and as we wrap up here um and Andrew I'll let you just have any final thoughts as well too but um one of my favorite scriptures and I actually thought of this as I was listening to the very I think it was the Final Chapter um of your book and it was first John 4 18 which says there is no fear in love but perfect love casts out fear for fear excuse me has to do with punishment and whoever fears has not been perfected in love given that given the entire linear timeline of your story from you know from from the very young age being you know looking up to Bill Gothard like this reverence you know Prophet who had special Insight from God that no one else had to going through being all 19 Kids and Counting uh and then going through this whole disentangling process you know through the help of the Lord and also through your husband Jeremy who's sitting right next to you could you sum up that verse what does that mean to you right now given everything that you've been through in your entire life could you what is that how does that resonate with you such a beautiful reminder and I have to remind myself of that every day because I think these this journey of life like it's it's it's difficult it's been difficult the stuff that I've walked through but just realizing like okay the hope that I have in Jesus the the security and um there is no one else in on this planet no one else ever that could give us um such hope and peace and joy in life in spite of what you've walked through and so that that truth of God's word is what I cling to every day and so I would hope that those who are outside of that those who have wrestled and struggled throughout whatever they've walked through if it's worse than I've walked through and or if they've just had small bits of that that they would come to know that um that same truth because Jesus is my only hope and I'm just so grateful for that I'm so grateful to be able to sit here and talk with you and for that to be my story by the grace of God um yeah so so grateful awesome and uh Andrew do you have any final uh thoughts as we wrap up here I just praise God uh thank you Lord Romans 8 28 right God works all things together for good for those who love God who are called according to his purpose and that's exactly what we're hearing today uh he loves you he has you even in the midst of bad teaching he will keep you away right in there will be pain there will be suffering but again it'll be for your good for his glory in the long run like Joseph's brothers throwing him in the pit well God used it to bring about his purposes to save uh the Hebrews and bring about the Messiah who brings us salvation so praise God for that and also guys uh before we end can you tell everyone the name of your book and where they can get it as well yes my book is becoming free indeed and you can get it uh wherever books are sold or you can go to our website Ginger j-i-n-g-e-r and jeremy.com awesome awesome well thank you so much for taking the time today I know you've been making the media rounds I'm sure that's been incredibly busy for you on top of having uh two little ones to look after so I appreciate you making the time today uh and really really looking forward to seeing not only how this podcast blesses people to really see what the future holds I think what your message right now given the state of the world uh everything else is incredibly uh is incredibly important especially uh kind of given this the nature of religious deconstruction all that so thank you again for making the time and I you know wish all all the best for you both thank you so much yes absolutely all right uh well all right so thank you all for listening uh and we'll talk to you next time on coltish where we enter into the kingdom of the Colts talk to you guys soon

Channel: Apologia Studios

Views: 73,209

Keywords: Jeff Durbin, Apologia Studios, Apologia Church

Id: a3wIiMJdEDs

Length: 62min 58sec (3778 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 22 2023