Crime Beat: The Brentwood Five Massacre Part 2 | S1 E13

good evening i'm anthony robart this is crime  beat the stories behind some of canada's most   high profile homicides told by the reporters  who walk the beat every day and the families   demanding answers tonight five people were stabbed  in the biggest mass killing in calgary's history   the young man who did it was found not criminally  responsible and could he one day be free   he is on an accelerated path to absolute  discharge he is no longer supervised by anyone   why would you take the risk of all of society for  this one person some people seem to think that   that deep down he's just a a psychotic  killer and he's welcoming the opportunity   to revert to that status and and that's  just that's ridiculous there's one woman   who understands the anguish of this path like few  others can the mother of the man who was beheaded   on a greyhound bus i don't think i'll  ever come to terms with the fact that he   is allowed to walk free with no criminal  record their incurable illness is too delicate   here's nancy hixt with the conclusion of the  brentwood five massacre lawrence hong kaiti perras  jordan segura josh hunter and zackariah rathwell  were all young talented and had promising futures   what started out as a party to mark the  end of classes at the university of calgary   ended with five young people's lives being  stolen in a sudden unprovoked stabbing spree because they were killed at a house party  in the calgary neighborhood of brentwood   they became affectionately  known as the brentwood five it was a tragedy that left a  scar on the soul of the city in the course of three days  five funerals were held the entire city grieved along with their families two weeks after they were killed a public memorial  was held at the university of calgary each family   shared special memories of their loved ones that  day lawrence would have turned 28 his brother   miles spoke on behalf of the hong family so the  last time i spoke to my brother he comforted me   on my birthday by talking about the future  today on his birthday i can't comfort him   he has left a mark he will not be forgotten  happy birthday lawrence we'll miss you thank you kaiti and i shared a very special bond as most  sisters do she was my person and i was hers   we may have lost our sister but we know  that whenever we follow our own spirits   and we live our passions that  she'll be right there with us standing here in front of all  of you takes a lot of courage   but i can hear jordan say you can do it mom the band is over now because we lost half of our  family and i cannot express how much that hurts   so for my family's sake the family that consisted  of joshua hunter zackariah rathwell barry mason   and myself just keep on dancing and keep on  carrying on much love i'm so sad that they're   all gone now but i'm so happy and so grateful and  so thankful that we had them in our lives at all   it was only 21 years but thank  you zack thank you i love you the man who took these five lives was matthew  de Grood he was originally charged with five   counts of first degree murder his mental state at  the time of the fatal stabbings became the focal   point of the trial more courtroom debate about  whether matthew de Grood was faking mental illness   in the horrific brentwood killings a third expert  testified today about degrude's state of mind   nancy hixt reports on his findings experts say  matthew degroot suffered from a disease of the   mind when he stabbed and killed five young people  at a house party two years ago the 24 year old   admits he killed lawrence hong josh hunter katie  paris zachariah rathwell and jordan segura but   three independent psych assessments have deemed  degreed lack the ability to know that his actions   were morally wrong de Grood believed that the world  was going to end that those around him were the   illuminati and that he had to kill to escape the  situation doctors spent extensive time checking   if de Grood was faking his symptoms but in the  end experts say he was in a psychosis suffering   from schizophrenia at the end of the trial a judge  found matthew de Grood not criminally responsible   or ncr for the killings diagnosed with  schizophrenia de Grood began taking medication   and was sent to a secure psychiatric facility  he's continually assessed by doctors who report   his status to the alberta review board or the  arb that review board looks at his case on a   yearly basis and decides if there's still a  significant threat to the safety of the public   to determine that risk the board looks at the  likelihood of de Grood becoming psychotic again and   what he would likely do if he did every year after  the review board i probably spend a couple months   just trying to climb back out of that darkness and  it doesn't get easier because each time he's that   much closer to being out the families of the  brentwood five relive the trauma over and over   again as they present victim impact statements at  each arb hearing it takes us back right back to   the day we found out she died thinking about her  autopsy report seeing her in a casket frozen solid   lifeless like every one of those images goes  through your head for the next six months on   either side and then we gotta start all over  again next year the way the system is set   up they never get a chance to heal it's a  something i've had to experience as time goes   nobody has sat us down and said this is how you do  this we figured things out as we go along it would   be nice not to have to think about it yeah but  every year and you know you get going up to this   april 15th and when they died and  then in september now we're doing   the reviews and you know it's just a  constant and it would be nice to try and heal   somehow there's no healing in this for all of us it's a continuous loop   um and the there's no healing in the review board  process there's no support in the system for the   families. the very first hearing to review  de Grood's status was held in july of 2016   less than two months after the trial once a year  we go and do this we don't have to but we have to   i think the board would be much much happier if  we didn't the review board is not about the index   offense it is not about the people that are left  it is about the patient it is about his well-being   his progress his support we just could not get  out of that grief it's a difficult situation that   i never encountered and i hope that  nobody no other parents should ever go through what we went through it should  never have happened no parents deserve that   nobody deserves this but here we are to  date including the trial the families have   presented victim impact statements five times with  another hearing scheduled for september of 2020 coming up on crime beat from the moment  de Grood was found not criminally responsible   the five families expressed concerns about his  future they've seen other killers found ncr   walk free that's coming up after the break the families of the brentwood five are concerned  about the risk to public safety if matthew de Grood  would one day be given absolute freedom we  now return to nancy hicks each time degrood's   case is looked at by the alberta review board the  families of the brentwood 5 fear he'll be granted   an absolute discharge free to go about his life  it's not up to degroot to prove he isn't a risk   rather it's up to the board to find evidence that  he is a risk the law in canada states the board   has to impose the least onerous restrictions  while protecting the safety of the public   just 10 months after he was declared not  criminally responsible degroot began asking   for increased freedoms well as you can imagine  this has been an extremely emotional and draining   process for the families of the five young  people that were killed by matthew de Grood 20 tear-filled victim impact statements  were read during the hearing today many   of these people were pleading with the board to  keep degreed in a secure facility we the five   families vehemently disagree with the treatment  team's request for additional privileges outside   of the secure hospital facility where there are  no fences or security measures the following year   in 2018 two years after being declared ncr de Grood was moved to a secure facility in edmonton doctors   described de Grood as a model patient and at that  time he was granted unsupervised ground privileges   as well as passes into the city as long  as he was supervised by a responsible   adult both of his parents had been granted that  status he was also allowed to leave for 24 hours   at a time to stay with his family by 2019 his  freedoms were again increased exponentially   the families of the five young people killed  by matthew de Grood are calling for an immediate   review of the decision to grant him more freedom  de Grood was found not criminally responsible and   tonight there are renewed calls for greater  accountability and these types of cases   global's nancy hixt is working on this story  and joins us now with more nancy there are   three options for people deemed not criminally  responsible they can be sent to a secure facility   for treatment they can be granted a conditional  discharge or an absolute discharge the ultimate   goal of the entire ncr process is to rehabilitate  reintegrate and let them go on their way absolute   discharge with no checking in he is on a path  an accelerated path to absolute discharge   where people need to understand he is no longer  supervised by anyone he does not have to go to   a psychiatrist and check in he does not  have to have his drugs you know tested   to see how much drugs he has in his system to see  he's taking his drugs he's completely free to go   in 2019 there was evidence of mental deterioration  when a change was made to de Grood's medication   his symptoms were insomnia and increased activity  doctors said there was under recognition and under   reporting by de Grood of his developing symptoms  what this means is doctors feel when de Grood's medication is working he has a good understanding  of his mental health and the need for treatment   when his medication is not working his perception  deteriorates along with his condition they're not   better they're medicated they're never going  to be better he's schizophrenic there's no cure   he's medicated he's not better while he still  lives in the secure facility in edmonton he's   allowed unsupervised visits into the city  overnight passes that extend to a week   and he can travel anywhere in the province  for up to a week with a responsible adult   the doctors who treat an assessed de Grood testify  at each of the hearings and have made it clear   schizophrenia cannot be cured it can be managed  according to the most recent decision if de Grood stops taking his medication he's likely to relapse  within weeks or months and the relapse is likely   to become full-blown doctors also testified that  the violence could once again be catastrophic if   he does re-enter a psychotic state all of these  things raise more questions for the five families   how can anyone be sure he'll take his medication  and if those meds are even working unless he's in   a secure facility or continually monitored  in the community so you're telling me that   the drugs that he's taking are fine and and  he probably won't reoffend but if he does   it will be catastrophic he will kill  people he'll kill everyone in the room   and i just don't understand how anyone is willing  to take that chance from what i understand   stress is his biggest trigger so how much  stress is it but how much of that is going to   take him so that his meds aren't maybe enough mad  because he's been triggered with this stress or   that sort of thing and who wants to i just don't  understand who wants to take that risk we know our   kids paid with their lives you know from for what  what he did and his illness absolute discharge   would be the ultimate he doesn't have to report to  anybody nobody nobody's going to be monitoring him   he would do whatever he wants i don't know  what else to say to people to convince them   that it's their problem too not just the problem  of the five families and this needs to change   matthew de Grood cannot be giving an absolute  discharge change to the criminal code that   would prevent somebody that's committed violent  crime murder from ever being absolutely discharged   at a minimum coming up on crime beat... a man  who killed and beheaded a young man in one   of canada's most high profile cases walks free  could that happen in matthew degroote's case welcome back to crimebeat it was a case that  shocked the nation a young man brutally attacked   and beheaded by a stranger on a greyhound bus  why the brentwood five families fear their case   could end up with the same  shocking outcome here's nancy hixt the one person who can relate to the anxiety the  families of the brentwood 5 are experiencing is   carol didelli timothy mclean's mother he was a  free spirit he was wild he rather undisciplined   but so fun like he's just left such a void he was  so bright and energetic and electric timothy was   an adventurer at heart timothy was very much  a minimalist he liked to sofa surf he traveled   lightly pretty much everything he possessed was in  a backpack he had been working with the carnival   i think this was his third summer going across the  provinces while traveling on the carnival circuit   timothy always made time for his mom he would call  me from just about everywhere that he was staying   to ask for a chocolate chewy double chocolate  cookie recipe and he would make them wherever   he was living i didn't have a cell phone or if  i did i had just gotten one now i mean i would   take a picture of it and send it but back then  no i'd have to give it to him over the phone each   and every time but yeah his friends still call and  ask for that recipe in fact one did three days ago   in june of 2008 timothy made sure he was  back in manitoba for his younger brother's   graduation after that he headed back to work on  the carnival circuit the last time i saw my son he was crossing the street from  the hotel when we left one minute it was a warm summer evening beautiful night but  when we were leaving he was going the opposite   way from ourselves to go to our vehicles and  he was in the middle of the street no cars   coming and he turned around and he said bye  mom i love you i'm going to be famous one day   and he turned around and went to his car i had no  idea the last day on the world on this earth would   make him famous but it has at the end of july  that same year timothy rode a greyhound bus across   the prairies with the goal of ending up back  home in winnipeg on july 30 2008 timothy's mom   had on the news as she prepped that night's  dinner i remember us all being so oh my god   that's so horrible when i initially heard it my  first response was what state did that happen in   and then my next response was oh my god that  happened here that happened close to here   then i realized it was less  than an hour from where we are we all said a prayer for the family and the  murdered person what she saw on the news   shocked an entire nation a man riding  on a greyhound bus west of winnipeg   had repeatedly stabbed and mutilated  another passenger the victim was beheaded   i remember saying to the senior ladies well that  my son would have been on that bus but he came   home two days earlier or whatever and turned  out i was wrong it never crossed carol's mind   that the victim could be her son it was  24 hours after the killing before we were   before timothy was positively identified and we  were informed the reason they said it took so long   they didn't want to make any mistakes  with his identity and he was a difficult   it was difficult to make that identification  because of the mass destruction of his body i knew   a lot of what had happened to that individual  on the bus before i knew it was my child   and when i heard it was my child  it just hit me like like nothing   could ever hit you like that again i it was so  surreal so unbelievable that it was just not   it was just not wanting to sink in i felt like  i was standing on a precipice of craziness   that i i could have lost my mind right there  because i remember it being so horrific that   i wanted to laugh i hit i hit the ground i  landed on my knees and i screamed i ran out   the front door and i screamed no but i know that  at that moment i felt like i was right on the edge and i had to yank myself back because it could  have gone it could have gone the other way   the bus was pulled over and passengers were  stretching their legs carol's son timothy mclean   smiled at a stranger named vince lee later timothy  returned to his seat at the back of the bus   put his earbuds in closed his eyes and rested  his head against the window the stranger   vince lee took a seat next to timothy  shortly after that and without warning   lee violently attacked him witnesses  reported hearing timothy scream   he jumped up and tried to defend himself but lee  easily overpowered him and he had nowhere to go   the first two stab wounds were  fatal but the attack continued   there were over a hundred stab wounds to his body  the first two were fatal neck and upper chest   he didn't suffer for a long time which was good but the mutilation that occurred following  his initial death is what i struggle   with while the violence against timothy went  on the driver and other passengers escaped   rcmp and special negotiators were outside of  the bus for nearly five hours during that time   vince lee kept stabbing and mutilating timothy  i need to warn you these details are graphic   lee removed timothy's internal organs and then  cannibalized him he took timothy's severed head   held it in his hand and taunted onlookers lee  opened a window on the bus and jumped out and   he was finally arrested timothy's ear nose  and tongue were found in lee's pocket he was   charged with second-degree murder less than a year  later lee was found not criminally responsible for   his actions court heard he had a history of mental  illness that was documented since at least 2004.   lee suffered from auditory hallucinations and  believed he heard the voice of god telling him   to kill timothy after being declared ncr he was  sent to a mental health facility in manitoba   and in the years that followed his freedoms  were gradually increased in 2016 less than   eight years after he killed timothy mclean  vince lee changed his name to will baker   that same year the review board allowed him  to live on his own in a winnipeg apartment   while subject to conditions and nightly  monitoring to make sure he took his medication it was only a few months later in february  2017 less than nine years after the brutal   greyhound slaying vince lee aka will baker was  granted an absolute discharge that ruling gave   him complete freedom i don't think i'll  ever come to terms with the fact that he   is allowed to walk free with no criminal record  their incurable illness is too delicate they have   to constantly monitor medications and change them  up and in order to find that right combination to   control their illness i don't think individuals  like vince lee that are so extreme are capable   of doing that for themselves i think they need to  be in an environment that is aimed and catered to   providing them the care that they need that's  the most humane thing i can think of to do with a   mentally ill killer that has proven themselves to  be this violent this unpredictable if there is no   legal mechanism in place that requires them to  treat their illness i don't think that they should   be reintegrated back into society and currently  there is no legal mechanism requiring them to   treat their illness according to a 1999 ruling  by the supreme court of canada r versus winco a   review board must order an absolute discharge  if a person doesn't pose a significant threat   to public safety and in lee or baker's case  the board ruled he no longer posed a threat   how many more innocent people are going to die at  the hands of a not criminally responsible killer   who then is freed with no criminal record to  do it again my name is carol didelli and i am   timothy mclean's mother timothy's mother has since  fought to change legislation she believes absolute   discharges should be taken off the table for  killers deemed to be not criminally responsible   but so far that change hasn't happened i  don't want to hear talk anymore i've met   all the politicians i took this to the senate of  canada i presented to the house of commons and   to the senate committee it's not that they're  not aware i know that they're aware because i   told them myself now it's up to everybody else to  use their voice in light of what happened in that   case the families of the brentwood 5 worry matthew  degrood will also be granted an absolute discharge   coming up on crimebeat matthew degrood promises  he'll always take his medication and says he could   be trusted if granted an absolute discharge  we'll hear from his lawyer after the break matthew degroot has been described as a model  patient and his freedoms are increasing but   is there a guarantee he would always take his  medication and what are the risks if he doesn't   we now return to nancy hicks with the brentwood  5 massacre the alberta review board has expressed   concern that if matthew degrood goes off his  medication his insight would decrease and create   a real risk that he could continue to deteriorate  to a point where medications are avoided but his defense lawyer alan fay maintains  that won't be an issue the bottom line is   this at this point as a result of his  medication matthew degroot is rational   he is well he recognizes that if  he does not take his medication   he will become unwell again and in an unwell  state he could hurt someone that is the last   thing that matthew degroot wants that is the last  place that matthew degroot wants to go matthew   degroot is dedicated to doing everything in his  power to remaining well and if that means taking   medication for the rest of his life he has made it  clear he's prepared to do that and he doesn't need   a conditional discharge to ensure he does that i  mean i mean again there seems to be this illusion   that he's just looking for the opportunity to  go off his medication he's not degreed maintains   he'll always take his medication let's be clear  my client has been completely medication compliant   from the get-go he wants to take his medication he  wants to remain well he does not want to ever go   back to where he wasn't i think the problem here  is some people seem to think that that deep down   he's just a a psychotic killer and he's welcoming  the opportunity to revert to that status and and   and that's just that's ridiculous i think you know  the families have expressed concern that if he   would be someone who wants to be compliant and  always take his medication then why not consent to   a conditional discharge where you would be  mandated you would have to check in and there   would be checks and balances to make sure you  would take your medication why not consent to that   well first and foremost it's not a question of  him consenting it's what the alberta review board   directs but could he not proactively say i'm not  asking for an absolute discharge take it off the   table let me sign this paper and say that that's  what i would do i guess that's what the families   are wondering but by law he's entitled to an  absolute discharge all he wants all i want for him   are what he is legally entitled to the  same way as the families of the victims   want what they are legally entitled to the law  of canada sets out the procedure it sets out   what should happen as it stands now under current  canadian law if the board deems matthew degroot   no longer poses a risk to the public he must be  granted a conditional or an absolute discharge   so if this person is doing really well and  following their treatment then how would i   find that this person poses a significant risk  at this point in time and so again in winco the   court says you can't just speculate about down the  road at some point in the future if he was to stop   taking his medication that's not a sufficient  basis for restricting his liberty at this time   so we will start with mr bailey forensic  psychologist dr patrick bailey testified before   parliamentary justice committees to look at  amendments to the criminal code nationally there   are approximately 400 ncr cases every year less  than 10 percent of those involve serious personal   violence or homicide dr bailey says most of those  cases eventually result in absolute discharges   the problem is if the board grants an absolute  discharge to someone found to be ncr for a serious   violent offense and then that person goes off  their medication the risk to the public can be   extreme we certainly know countless cases of  individuals who stop taking their medication   because they believe that they're now well or they  don't like the side effects of the medication and   so they opt to stop taking it because some of  those side effects can accumulate over time   or we know unfortunately that some of the  medications stop being effective and so unless you   have that ongoing monitoring even if this person  is willing to take their medication it might not   be working for them anymore so why not continue  to have some measure of monitoring for these   relatively rare personal injury cases the issue  once again comes back to canadian legislation   so my suggestion has been that the notion of  an absolute discharge could be taken off the   table for those relatively rare serious personal  injury offenses so let me be clear there are some   people in the mental health community who don't  appreciate me having advanced the idea because   they see it as restricting the liberty of somebody  who's otherwise earned an absolute discharge   i understand that i also understand the what i  consider to be very reasonable public concern   about individuals who've committed serious violent  offenses being in a position where they obtain an   absolute discharge and they're no longer any under  any supervision i don't think that the supervision   is onerous to say you will continue to see your  psychiatrist you'll continue to take medications   as directed and once a year you're gonna you're  going to come back before the review board for   us to decide how you're doing it all might sound  like a simple enough fix but so far the canadian   government has not taken action timothy mclean's  mom wanted those changes to happen before the   man who killed her son was released without any  conditions that didn't happen now the families   of the brentwood 5 want federal politicians  to take action before degroot is granted an   absolute discharge because that is the path he's  currently on so he could be your neighbor he   could change his name like vince lee did and so  that should be scary to to everybody out there   that he he's on a path to be completely  unsupervised this is why we're speaking   now because they're starting they're starting  exactly what vince lee did at year six in year   three for degroote degree's there at year three by  the end of this year he's going to be living in a   in a supervised halfway house but you see the  progression that's what everyone should be afraid   of we just really wishes that nothing will happen  to other people nobody deserves to go through the   grief that we're going through clearly he's ill  and violent when he's not on his medication i   don't know for me personally it's just what  what are you willing to risk as a society and you know that means laws need to be  changed this could happen to anybody's children   anybody's it could be happen to anybody's loved  ones it could happen at walmart when they're   shopping or at tim hortons in the lineup as  long as they give matthew degroote freedom   everybody is at risk wherever they go why would  you take the risk of all of society for this one   person coming up on crimebeat the families  vow to keep fighting until the law is changed   and at the same time they are struggling to  deal with never-ending overwhelming grief there would be no closure for the families of  the brentwood five in fact the stress would   only increase over time but there is one bright  spot a place where their loved ones will always   be remembered we now return to nancy hicks with  the conclusion of the brentwood five massacre it's been more than six years since the  brentwood five were killed their families try   to move forward but grief will hit them when they  least expect it lorenzo and marlene hong think   of lawrence every time they enjoy a good meal  cooking cooking he has a very uh good taste bud   and he would remember uh sauces from other  restaurants that you you would whenever   there's a new place or a recommended restaurant  he would be there and he will have the memory   of all those sauces and flavors he will  come back home and look at our pantry   and start testing it for shannon miller an  overwhelming sense of grief can be brought on   any time any day in an instant anytime i smell  popcorn that was katie's go-to food she really   loved popcorn so when i smell popcorn that  reminds me of her driving has changed for me   the i probably shouldn't have been  driving for a few years afterwards even   but even now if i see a white car with a  young girl with a messy bun in her hair   you know it it's that one split second of oh  that's katie oh it's not patty segura thinks of   jordan every day but it's on special  occasions that it hits her the hardest   people think that the first year is the  hardest year and that's not accurate with   me first year was a very difficult year but  the christmases after don't get any better   jordan's birthday i do everything i can to honor  jordan and it just makes me angry and then by the   time his birthday's over i'm sad and i'm crying  because he's not here i cook his favorite meal   and we julie and antonella come over and we have  what jordan would want but it does not get easier   for the hunters it's some of the simplest  of times with josh that they miss the most   i have a hard time talking about without sorry that's the things that i miss the  most is just our home time and in the mornings i'd get up and go down and he was good buddies with her with  our dog and i'd take the dog out of the mud room   and go into his room and the dog would hop up on  the bed and he'd stretch right out along josh and   we'd sit there and have a conversation  you know just what he was up to what his   day was going to be like and he'd  sit there and scratch the dog and just have a chat and start  the day and then be off and i miss those times a lot rhonda lee rothwell struggles  daily with overwhelming grief   you know i'd make a grocery list and he'd add  what he needed i put on a coat a raincoat and   in it was an old grocery list that had my writing  and then had his the things that he wanted so the   absolute terror and shock that he must fit in when  this person turned on him and starts stabbing him   i just i go there and that  stops the grieving process the families of the brentwood five  are creating a special place where   they'll be able to honor their kids and find  solace it's called the quintera legacy garden   it will be a peaceful and vibrant outdoor space  where visitors can reflect heal and remember   the families want to reflect the qualities the  brentwood 5 embodied including hope possibility   and creativity it's a place where the spirits of  lawrence katie jordan josh and zach can live on   and everyone can see that beyond  tragedy and loss there is light the recidivism rate for people found to be ncr  for serious violent offenses is relatively low   in one three-year study it was six percent however  there are at least two known high-profile cases   where offenders who were declared ncr for  violent crimes went on to be discharged and   then violently reoffended the families of timothy  mclean and the brentwood 5 feel it's not worth   the risk and believe an absolute discharge for  serious violent offenders should be taken off   the table they're hoping an mp would bring this  forward in parliament and that would require   public support in the meantime matthew degrude has  another hearing coming up and he will likely be   seeking increased freedoms i'm anthony robart  thank you for joining us tonight on crimebeat   for more on this story and other  high-profile canadian cases   check out crimebeat podcast you can listen  for free on apple podcast spotify or on curiouscast.ca you

Channel: Crime Beat TV

Views: 548,204

Rating: 4.7291665 out of 5

Keywords: Crime beat, Crime, Crime stories, true crime, real life crime, Nancy Hixt, Nancy Hixt crimebeat, crimebeat, crime beat podcast, crime beat global, The Brentwood Five, The Brentwood Five murders, The Brentwood Five massacre, University of Calgary, Lawrence Hong, Kaiti Perras, Jordan Segura, Josh Hunter, Zackariah Rathwell, Carol de Delley, Timothy McLean, Vince Li, Matthew de Grood

Id: vnkpgjJktz0

Length: 45min 13sec (2713 seconds)

Published: Sat Jun 13 2020