COVID-19 Q&A with A&V Livestream 9/8/21

it's really not funny no there's the thumbs down that's what i was laughing at hello everybody welcome to q a with a and v i'm vincent draconiello and joining me from new york amy rosenfeld hello the lights look great yeah i have them fixed i know it's a great job it's actually better than my office so i had those fixed sorry about the technical issues hello everybody we have 231 people we have 81 likes and one not dislike and i don't know why but you know since i complain about it i guess people want to give us a down a thumbs down i i just want to tell people that we have passed 96 000 subs on the youtube channel how cool is that the uh lex friedman bump i guess right yeah and last week after we finished my office flooded but it's all cleaned and and set up again as you can see and hope it's supposed to rain tonight amy did you know that i did i brought my umbrella okay all right last week it was not that much fun white water rafting home i'm sorry did you get really wet yeah i i mean there's six there was six inches of water as i said i wait whatever i'm sorry it happens all right let's jump into the questions here and this is really the first one i'm seeing from account owner and i'm sure it's not the first so if you posted one earlier and i know a lot of you did please post them again should humans bring all life to space including bacteria and viruses well it would automatically come with them right amy yes because you have your microbiome and your virum and you can't get rid of them so you know the astronauts bring it into space they brought it to the moon can't avoid it nope but yes what do you think about vaccinated people who allow their children to play with unvaccinated families and who have had covet in the past month or so three weeks don't you think that's risky so the vaccinated people don't have covet the unvaccinated people have coped right is that apparently yes in the vaccinated people because the kids are not vaccinated i suppose right i don't know it's not claire i'm sure i'm assuming charlotte they're not vaccinated in which case it's risky yes i would not do that and i'm sure daniel griffin would not right but if your kids are vaccinated if you're vaccinated then it should be fine right right it's not yeah this question is not clear to me you could restate it charlotte okay ronald wants to know infection requires susceptibility and permissiveness so isn't reinfection always likely since s and p are unchanged or is there some other mechanism that can prevent reinfection what the immune system is for exactly immune system supposed to kick in and halt the infection you're right though the cells are always susceptible and permissive though but uh antibodies and t cells and other things too kick in all right two listening one what do you have an opinion whether the mu or new variants can escape vaccines or monoclonals it sounded like it's behaving quite differently some say amy you have any insight into mu just that it's not really a problem because it's overrun by delta columbia it's over it's about 75 percent of the last two weeks uh isolates i don't know when i listened to in the bubble with slavic who had fouchy on today he he said mew was overrun by delta i guess he's not up to date mu has a lot of the same spike changes and and one additional spike change and has some other changes like as amy and i were discussing today a deletion of orf iii what does or three do amy it's an enterprise antagonist right which means it could technically be more virulent right i mean the tissue calls ourselves sure yeah we don't know about people um so as far as monoclonals go it might because it has a lot of the same the e484k and n501y wait a minute if it has the same why would it escape vaccine and monoclonals the other variants that have those variations do not well it depends what monoclonals you use right and well it's very hard to know i i don't really know i think we've over i don't think we've done the right experiments because everybody does it differently and everybody's using different things some use infectious virus some use pseudotypes i don't know it's a mishmash is saying there's no standardization of neutralization essays yeah it doesn't really mean anything to me if you come and say it's three-fold less reduced i don't know and somebody else says it's five-fold or somebody says i see nothing i don't know what it means since there's no standardization of it is it in the context of infectious virus is it the context of pseudotype is it on various cells does it on what a549 that are that are producing ace is it in lung cells i don't know the key here to listening one is whether the vaccines still prevent severe disease and death and for delta they do and i think they will do from you i think that's the bottom line isle of man only 38 deaths 85 000 population 90 percent of adults vaccinated we are back to normal bar masking in hospital and care homes it can be done congratulations yeah yeah i'm gonna go there okay i'll get you a ticket okay just tell me what to do with the mice in this in the nitrogen and the co2 well they're coming with me sean crotty said yesterday on twit if we had 90 percent of the us vaccinated we wouldn't have any issues so isle of man shows that how about that my vaxxed friend has been in bed with covid for eight days not hospitalized just out of breath feverish tired do you think he's shedding virus no i don't we don't think so amy and i you know amy and i talk every day and mostly we agree not always and we do think we do agree that vaccinated people who get infected don't shed infectious virus even though that's what i was told at the rosh hashanah table on monday night but the person who told me didn't really read the guidelines or the statement properly on the cdc website because that's not what it said but it's okay was that an expert that said that at the rosh hashanah table no no no she does not have a phd in black and microbiology could rapid whole exome sequencing be at all practical to identify males with deleterious tlr-7 mutations and provide them with extra treatments yeah you know you don't need rapid hold exome sequencing what do you do you can just sequence across that you can just amplify that region out and do a snip test right you don't need to you don't need to sequence the whole your whole genome you don't even need to sequence at all just get a primer repair that can discriminate discern the wild type from the variant and call it a day it's what we used to do why do you need to go so fancy it's a waste of time can you explain gain of function research what's the purpose of such research you want to take a snap a snap at that amy um gain a function research is where you make an alteration and a protein and you give it and you hope or you predict that it's going to confer a different function from what it had as wild type purpose of it is to whether or not to understand the function of the protein the wild-type protein in a controlled system and mechanistically how certain things occur it's a genetic property it's actually a genetic assay it's been going on for since we started screwing around with bacteriophage bacteria viruses fungi all organisms are subject to gain of function yeah so it's not a bad word it's good and but the press has and some scientists have painted it as a bad thing yeah but we should be honest it started with two scientists one at harvard and one at rutgers right and maybe if a 2.5 if you count the guy at stanford the guy i'm really giving i'm only giving him a 0.5 and the guy at rutgers is the one who called me a cult okay how about seeing booster third shot as a way to protect people while the unvaccinated get their infection i don't know i don't see we don't know that's going to protect people while they unvex and they get their infection how long are you going to wait for the unvaccinated to get their infection from now until 10 years from now it could take a long time yeah your booster immunity is likely to wane well it will wayne just it's you know it's the whole property that we talked about last week when i sent the article that said from israel that says oh boosters are stopping infection and i said couldn't they be more creative and tell the truth because they already played this card indeed all right charlotte is clarifying my daughter allows my granddaughter to play her with her friend whose family are on anti-vaccine and their older daughter just had covid not a good idea charlotte well it also depends on how old the granddaughter is and if she's been vaccinated so if the granddaughter is 12 or but what is it 12 or above and been vaccinated that's right i mean if she's wearing a mask it should be fine even if you don't wear a mask it's kind of probably fine but wear a mask and call it a day are these q a sessions streamed on other platforms no but if you'd like i could do that i could stream it to restream and then stream it to wherever you want but i'm only going to be on this one you know chatting with everyone so let me know and this is very interesting the video hasn't even started how do we know if we like or dislike it today well when we put that little envelope to our head and we say do we like or dislike that's okay that's right that's right okay let's see are you ever going to have ian lipkin on to discuss his bout with long covid do you think we should have him on amy um i don't think he'll discuss that i think he'll discuss other things that he's far more interested in yeah i agree i totally agree and yeah i mean i think ian has a you know spending some time with ian recently i he is really interesting he has a lot of good stories and a lot of good information and sometimes very good ideas sometimes ideas i don't quite understand but he could probably say the same for me um but yeah i think you know he would talk about i agree i think you should talk about gideon personally i i agree with you he probably would not find his long coven particularly interesting however it would be a fun if i did it with you and ian amy that would be fun yeah that would be fun but we could talk about gideon we could talk about his well he could talk about his chronic fatigue stuff and other stuff right yep oh yeah he's got a lot to talk about yeah oh this is for amy how many places in the u.s have the equipment to do genome sequencing is there even enough sequencing being done to be able to say that delta is what everyone is getting everywhere can do genome sequencing right um whether or not it's done like um like in my immediate vicinity i could do it across the street at ian's or i could put it in an envelope have a drop box and have it taken to new jersey and have it sequenced not a problem is there enough to be yeah there is enough of being done to say what percentage of dealt what percentage of infections are due to delta yes yep you don't have to do you don't have to sequence everyone to know that you use statistical procedures amy will will laugh at this one i've been isolating too long vincent is beginning to look cute that's cute you know you're i'm sorry something must be wrong go to the er right now he's fine did taking monoclonals interfere with the development of natural immune building following infection of course yeah especially if you take them early right but if you take them after three weeks probably not but they're not gonna help you either i was gonna say what are they gonna do then it's like expensive pee it's like taking too much vitamin c and then urinating it out we have 261 000 views on the lex friedman interview a number of people are saying they like it i'm glad you liked it i was very thoughtful because he gave me a lot of time so i could be thoughtful slow listen to him very carefully gave you the questions ahead of time they gave me a list of them ahead of time but i didn't really like prepare for them i don't really need to the answers aren't the problem it's the person who's the is delivering the questions that's the problem are you not a fan of lex you know when you said how people could snuff out on the internet yeah it's amazing that he has a million views oh we should have like one his mom you you but you still advocated me going you advocated for sure but that has nothing to do with whether or not he's a yeah that has to do with marketing your brand you have to learn to play the game it's like i can write a grant on stuff i don't really believe in and i've gotten funded for it in the past when i was a postdoc but i preferred to do you know i needed the money and i did other stuff with it what virologic assays would you like to see performed that could provide critical characterization of sars-ko ii go for it amy well i don't understand what critical characterization means exactly um i think that no matter what property you try to alter of the virus you need to do a plaque assay and look at infect infections the production of infectious virus whether or not it you make different changes in the spike protein to look at entry and coding polymerase changes nsp14 deletions blah blah blah i think you need to do a lot more black essays this art this rt is not working for me but it's also not working for eric narenberg either didn't i send you his tweet yeah i don't think so but yeah i did i sent his tweet to you and daniel where he says we should pass a law against anyone who uses the who says that viral that are that rna copies is correlative to viral yield oh i thought you were writing that yourself no it was eric narenberg he wrote it somebody uh bill jackson you know the ev68 guy retweeted it and then that's how i saw it and i thought it was so great i thought it was really appropriate how many years ago we've been saying it for years yes and we've been ignored and now other people are just picking it up it's fine yeah but it's fine i don't have a problem with that yeah i agree i think it's just you have to use the right words yep well yeah i mean where is it yeah eric narenberg i would like a rule that you are not allowed to write that you compared viral load if you only looked at ct values i agree profound thought i wonder who's done that for the past year well i wonder who's always connotated uh viral replica reproduction with black assays well wasn't i on the phone today with a fact checker who couldn't understand why rt pcr wasn't measuring viral growth yes um i'm sorry i missed the the ama today i had to do other things but and i'm still not caught up for today i have to edit twit blah blah blah but i'll be back next week we have to do mice and the co2 needs changing holy cow we didn't do mice no we didn't do mice you want me to come in tomorrow and do them well i don't know yeah maybe and then we can do the co2 okay i'll come in tomorrow well you're going to the incubator no i'll come in to do the mice and the co2 it's fine well where are you going to record daniel um i don't know we'll see don't worry about it i was going to try at the incubator but it's fine you just you can just go to the incubator i like this amy needs to talk in a way we can all understand really it's not very nice folks i understand i mean he complains consistently about me i think a lot of people here like the way amy talks uh what's your favorite enzyme oh boy that's a tough one because it's a toss-up between rna-dependent rna polymerase and reverse transcriptase but i'd have to choose rna-dependent rna polymerase because the vitamin d no i like rdrp even though i never really worked on it i still think it's amazing very cool i think i think 2a has a lot of interesting properties it does we did work on 2a and i suppose yeah and there were a lot of problems that we didn't solve so one could imagine going back to them in another life but that's for you to do amy it's okay i have lots of questions and maybe i will go considering the fact we still don't understand what two immun murian purine does to amino purine yeah bob's result all right this young lady overjoyed is fully vaxxed with long cove many pcr confirmed reinfections in a year immunity never lasted more than 95 days is the third shot okay i don't know what it will get you but you could try it right i mean she might be one of these unlucky people who never um is able to amount a good immune response like i'm not able to amount a good immune response against measles so they finally i finally said stop the vaccinating me you're going to give me measles right this is also lovely elisa grace amy looks irritated boyd and annoyed really you know how i feel did you know that that this girl can just i don't know like must have like the ball you know the so you have the envelope and then didn't didn't johnny carson have like the magic ball like underneath a sheet i don't remember that well somebody had them yeah well i was even younger [Laughter] no she's not annoyed amy's not annoyed she's not bored i tell you she wouldn't be here if she were annoyed and bored and irritated and you should not irritate me this is amy just get used to it oh leo laporte the tech guy so i have to say maybe some of you know that my inspiration for this week in virology was this week in tech right the laporte and um i um so early in the so i did some shows on his network i did um futures in biotech i did kiki sanford had a a science show i did that and when the pandemic began i was watching um leo on this week in google and he he was going over twiv website and saying this is a good resource for the pandemic and he said he just said oh i know vincent just kind of flipped it off as if wow yeah i know vincent okay oh studying virology so i hope to do the live stream virology of course this month you know i'm really trying hard i ordered a bunch of stuff on the train home tonight to try and get the studio set up so i could live stream it from there so i have to the end of september no uh no problem okay when they test samples for source cov2 do the labs need to be bsl3 no no they don't they throw the swab they put the swab in your nose and then they throw it into a tube and then they inactivate it before they do the pcr which is good otherwise boy that would be a bottleneck right if they had to do bso3 well why would you ever have to do bsl right you take a swab and you put it in trisol that's right treasure is basically phenol chloroform yes so it depreciates everything so i don't understand what that i don't understand why i would ever need a bsl sorry nope anyone measured antibody titers for virus vectors is the immune response to the vector a real problem years ago they measured antibody response to adenovirus factors when all those people died at duke and they had to stop the gene therapy trials yeah yeah so um you know the sputnik was designed with two different ad vectors to to get around this issue if it were an issue but the j and j vaccine it doesn't seem to be an issue nor with the chadox which is multiple doses so doesn't seem to be a problem right amy yeah doesn't seem to be a problem but you know we had all of that information from what in the late 90s or early 2000s when all those kids died at duke yes amy we are the notorious anv okay maybe we're even a cult i'm fine with that you've emphasized there's no evidence for transmission by vaccinated people what kind of experiment could be done or data collected to prove or disprove amy's been saying this the whole night you have to take a vaccinated person and if they turn out pcr positive so they've been infected take some nasal swabs and look for infectious virus and see how much is there yeah and if you know if you have 10 platforming units they're not likely to be transmitting 10 platforming units are you kidding me it's not i think that's that's not an acceptable plot count you know how amy how many pfu do you think you need to shed in nasal secretions to transmit well what is it that's ctv you have to have a hunt a million copies million rna copies yeah yeah but that's dependent upon what so we don't really know because you don't even know what the infectious to the defective particle ratio is although probably raul knows that by now because i think yeah i think he has i think he has a grant to use di particles like they like he did for polio and you know his darpa stuff got it so i bet you he probably does know you can ask them now the other thing i would say is another way to look at transmission would be epidemiologically you look at very carefully case traced contact trace cases and see if you can you know identify transmission among vaccinated people like in a school that would be perfect if all the students are vaccinated i don't think amy would like that as much though amy wouldn't like that no i don't like that because that's basically then leading into the bayesian modeling that shaymin does and i don't agree with models like that so nope not acceptable arguing with a robert malone fan i tell him there's no ade in reinfections with new variants so we shouldn't expect ade when vaccine-induced antibodies decline any suggestions well you don't see even you do even better in reinfected people you don't see more severe disease you see less severe disease if you had ade you'd have it stands for antibody disease enhancement therefore enhancement so therefore if you had a reinfected person that person should be more severely does he have more severe disease like that's right there's no evidence for ade yet people like robert malone keep saying yeah so but he also calls himself the inventor of mrna vaccines so you know it's getting to that time of year no it is it's uh he does or whether or not nobel prize yeah it's getting to nobel prize time and i wonder if they do the mrna vaccines if they will do the right thing and give it to the lady and the guy at penn well that would be the right thing to do but right but they very rarely do the right thing yeah but they are so it also depends on in vitro transcription right so yeah didn't they already give people didn't they already give people the prize for polymerases they did isn't that what lederberg surprises for or something i don't know about letterbug but yes i think that's correct okay so yeah i don't i don't i don't have a problem if they don't do it to the trend in vitro that t7 rna polymerase isolation and stuff it will have a problem if they give it to like moderna ceo of mederna or pfizer because it's really or like barney graham or cosmicia because it's really those two people at penn yeah they should get it no no no no ceos absolutely not please but it's not even not even i would be even more appalled if it went to barney grandma because mikia no i should not get it all right um much as i like them if you get over 100 000 subs you get a gift from youtube that's right but my gift is right here tonight all of you folks coming here 650 of you coming here every wednesday to listen to us that is our gift wouldn't you say that amy yeah i think it's great but yeah with the youtube they'll give some kind of a thingy i don't know what it is it's an icon of their tube yeah fine that's good i'm just happy to have a lot of people listening since microrna regulates expression of immune genes could sars cov2 dysregulate the micrornas regulating the immune system in what context is this dysregulation oh like uh somehow antagonize the micrornas that are regulating the immune system so you mean like that the rna would act as a sponge it could be a sponge yeah let's say a micrornas needed for for immune gene expression and yeah if you sponged it out on a circular rna you could you know well there isn't any circular rnas that have been identified to be coming from the cyrus cov2 genome yeah i mean it's theoretically possible but we don't know of any mechanism right and actually micrornas 99.9 of them go in the opposite direction of what you said the only one i know of that regulates productively regulates protein synthesis is marijuana 22 for each hcv right all the others are inhibitory at least that i know of in the case of nipah virus the hendra nepa vaccine can't have been extensively tested due to limited outbreaks what side effects with the vaccine and how effective is it this is a very interesting story you should go back and listen to my twiv with linfa wong and this was that maybe it was a there was another yeah right unchan and linfa they were they're both in that episode right yeah this is one of her really big interests so i thought it was a horse so that was to the horse the hendra vaccine was made first for horses it's a spike gene uh vectored i don't know what the vector was i forgot vsv or adeno i don't remember and it turns out to protect against nepa the same spike will protect against nipah virus so that is being trialled phase one it's it's already in a phase one in people funded by seppi the nonprofit and then so that will give you good safety data and then they will continue with increasing numbers so i don't see why it would be an issue you never know right but i think it's going to be properly tested yeah you never know but i think also didn't i just see that there's like a nepa outbreak and the place that dixon has been kerala or whatever kerala yeah that happens often yeah i think i just saw it the other day it's a part of india yeah kerala which is uh but it's not part of the nipah belt that is not right and in fact yeah a boy died over the weekend yeah i believe i just saw it so that is um unusual because it's not the nipper belt and they're not sure there's you know it doesn't seem to be associated with date palm sap so they're not sure what the risk factors are but that was talked about at the meeting well that's all of ian's paper that's the paper that nobody read but me and then focus everybody focused on oh wow they put trucking devices in the bats and i had to say but the point of the paper is remember that how can i forget amy you give me hell about it from time to time for sure i do the thing about amy folks you if you do something wrong man you hear it until you say it doesn't matter what you say well it does you just can't ever you just can't rationalize it away don't ever do it again and you cannot rationalize it away as oh well blah blah blah no it's not oh well blah blah blah no no i understand however folks personalize it away and then you have to improve upon the next time don't worry the same mistake the thing is folks amy is a gem of knowledge and logic so she is worth having those other issues with for sure i learned very much from amy which with the other four coronas in circulation would they have had similar symptoms and features when humans first got infected with them well that's what ralph barrack thinks he said that first way back in february 2020 when he was on twitter the first time in the pandemic he thinks yeah they might have caused a pandemic many many hundreds and thousands of years ago i just sent you the article um it was a bioarchive article over the weekend about that talks about the origin of 2290 and it's not exactly what we thought it was oh what is it what's the origin um or what they hypothesize oh god do you want me to find it yeah you can you can uh i'll find it first of all i have to find you then i have to push the right button it's not it's uh all right so was it wildlife and cameron might be wildlife in cameroon yeah it's wildlife and cameroon harbors diverse coronaviruses including many isolates related to the human coronavirus 229e i think you guys should do it okay we'll do that i think it's really cool that sounds cool i love wildlife sampling not eating but sampling them for viruses folks but i don't think it i'm not sure it was from i'm not sure that they at the end no it's like the closest relatives in the camels the bats for envelope matrix and rdp blah blah blah and then there was this um really interesting paper that i sent you this morning about how they think like uh reassortment or r recombination occurred in the pangolin for two to nine first yeah or something yeah all right we'll have to do that one recent rising infections in singapore seem to be highly vaccinated something to be concerned about what is the fraction of vaccinated in singapore if it's 80 there's that's a lot of people who are still susceptible so no it's not a concern to me is it a concern to you well infection and disease are not the same thing so i'm not concerned about infections i'm concerned about disease agreed okay uh there's one here neuro okay the neurotalk i presume you're referring to kieran thacker on neuro covet good to see they don't see virus in the brain but is there any guess what causes the neuro symptoms well as she said she thinks a lot of it is due to hypoxia because you can't breathe you don't get enough oxygen just messes up your brain and then probably inflammatory reactions that's what she said right amy yeah i think carlos might agree with that is it unhealthy to keep sarsko v2 antibody levels high for a prolonged period as the boosters would continually do assuming you got a booster every eight months what do you think it sounds like there's a potential for you know kind of slightly an autoimmune syndrome or something i mean there has to be a reason why they naturally wane for us right and we don't keep them completely high so there obviously is something that we don't we don't understand agreed okay frank wants to know what what biologically or chemically makes like a stick difficult well i can tell him directly since i'm about to write a grant on this right well for a different virus right yeah but it's all the same principle right yeah of course is you have to have an extraordinarily high affinity high ability antibody and they're very hard to find and then you have to be able to make them as hybrid from a hybridoma right and mass production and so when a certain person said he had a box of liquor sticks in his office three months into the pandemic in the united states everybody should have said not possible because there was no way we could have found that antibody that quickly i'm not sure we even have it now no i don't believe we do because the truth of the matter is is only that one paper that you and i when we did the twist together talked about you you remember i was so excited about the biacore like machine and that i wanted to go to what's his name barry honing and lara and shapiro to do those kind of experiments for our antibiotics yes right remember that that's the only paper i've really seen that has done that first horoscope for a coronavirus antibody during the pandemic yeah i'm not saying that they haven't done it it's just that they don't publish those results i think the current antigen tests are using antibodies that are not very high affinity and that's probably important why they're not very good at picking up asymptomatic infections right someone so and and how fast was i to like when were when we talked about this idea with ian i was like this is what you need this is why we're doing this and and somebody else didn't really quite get why i wanted the machine remember that they do okay amy you have said that the israeli waning immunity data is wrong misinterpreted but fauci on slavic seems convinced it is solid can you explain please yes i listened to fat chance so i know what he said yes so they he they said oh look when you have very high uh antibodies you inhibit infection and i agree with that that's fine however you can't continuously that doesn't mean the vaccine is uh inducing is uh preventing transmission or infection right so if somebody is infected they'll naturally they'll have high antibodies they too will not get infected right so it's just you have a high antibody level and that blocks infection but who cares when you go it's like when i come out of the beauty parlor my hair is perfect right and then two weeks later it's less perfect and then four weeks later it's less perfect and then eight months later it's not perfect at all right and i have to look good it's true you have to look good at eight months later you can't be going to the happy baller just spending seven hundred dollars every two weeks like that's like ludicrous it's the same analogy so when you are when you test when the antibodies are first induced yes you are protected and then when you let nature take its course immunity wanes and you come and you say ah the vaccine is no longer protecting against transmission that's not the interpret that's not the correct interpretation of the of the data did you say that fauci claimed that protection against severe disease is waning no he didn't he didn't he didn't claim that he said yeah um mild to asymptomatic to mild diseases waning and then he said that there's no antibodies in the upper respiratory tract there's only antibodies in the lungs and being that we work on a respired a plethora of respiratory viruses right yeah and i'm looking at antibiotics to my plethora of respiratory viruses i'm not buying that we don't have any antibodies in our nose so karate said the same thing yesterday on twit you'll hear him say that he said the the upper traction is not protected he said the upper tract is not protected as antibodies declined but the lower tract is because that's what you need to protect against severe disease and death okay but if i remember correctly from paul and theodore's one of their intermediate papers which i thought was really important but you glossed over and decided that was uninteresting was where they looked at dimer iga okay and i believe the dimer iga is found in the upper respiratory track and the mucosal lining it is absolutely okay and i believe that the conclusion then ian would agree with me that the conclusion is the vaccines all need to induce dimer iga not igg got it and i because you do it igg you do through the vaccine because it's just systemically given but i bet you if we took flumist or whatever the nasal vaccine is for flu and we assade whether or not there was ig iga in people who got the inhaled version of the flu vaccine i bet you we would find iga in the nasal cavity the oral pharynx all the way down to the lungs and then over time it automatically decays right yes agreed okay so what what was shane's point again then because he says as antibodies wayne yeah well he didn't specify he didn't specify so that's a good point just said they they tend to wane first in the upper track which is why you get the mild infections but they they remain in the lower tract but it's really memory it's not the antibodies it's the memory cells maybe he said the memory cells leave the the upper mucosa sooner than the lower tract we'll have to listen to it too well that could be true but are do you know of any memory b cells that make igj iga and not igg shouldn't there be memory bc i don't know i'm not an immunologist that's my class i don't know but i think there should be yeah but the majority of time when you're talking about memory b cells you're talking about igg that's true yes and this was a caveat to when we wrote the bend grant right and then i wanted to build it into the grant that we just wrote with ian right that was correct right didn't i say that that we were sacking the mice temporally to look at the iga igm and igg responses right yes that was actually i said that would be a focus of the next project because this project is already too big a study proposes tlr-7 variants in severe coveted males how can this mutation of tlr-7 deleterious and why in males well ccr7 is x-linked and males only have one copy yes and tlr7 is a risk factor yes it's that was shown a while ago right by casanova yes so cclr7 occurs a sensor so if you don't sense infection well you're not going to respond well to it so that's so women have two x chromosomes uh why aren't they it's 8 50. we have three more and then i have to set my elisa okay why aren't the makers of the mrna vaccines updating with the delta and mu spike variants so they are however exchange said yesterday on twitter you don't need it because all you need is a boost he said for example if you get infected and you recover your body actually makes a wide range of memory b cells against all kinds of spike variants which are not even in you and it's just a matter of teasing them out by vaccination for example and then you get a antibody repertoire that can neutralize all the variants as well as sars1 and mers coronaviruses so he says you don't need to boost with the variance you just keep using the ancestral spike and that's good enough it's an interesting idea amy that the immune system makes a big range because of hypermutation right it makes all kinds of antibodies in anticipation of any variant that that would arise you just have to tease them out yeah i mean i don't know why you guys are all that surprised it does it for everything but this is the this is the point that paul where theodore said you didn't need a poster and paul was like you need to boost it around out the immune response i wasn't really quite getting it buying it but that's the idea we'll see if that's true i mean they're doing it is there a website to look for local outbreaks of virus in my community so here's something from that part what's it what does it mean i think every state has a map of the county but i also thought it was on like that the hopkins site yeah your state should have a department of health that has local case counts but the johns hopkins website just this look for johns hopkins covet counter or something like that should have it as well all right only one coveted question what's the incidence of long covet after a breakthrough infection as likely as getting hit by a meteor while crossing the street so daniel says we don't have the data yet he did a paper last week which said that after 28 days about 50 percent of the vaccinated people with breakthroughs have still symptoms at 28 days after recovery to which i said it's not really long is it he's getting agreed you know we have to look out longer so we don't know and that all in that one small study 50 percent but i thought that by 60 i thought that there was like something about 60 days or something oh there's another study at 60 days yeah i don't know i don't know maybe i'm getting confused i don't know but the lady who is running the survivor or whatever website that the organization for a long-term covet she thinks that you can get long-term covet after a breakthrough infection i don't know i don't i just don't know that we know enough to be able to say that because we're not far enough out from vaccination and breakthroughs claire i'm also not clear that so when you test positive after a vaccine and you have quote unquote a breakthrough infection i'm not re and even if you develop symptoms symptoms are usually after the picoviral replication i'm not sure that it's not an aborted infection and the fragments the rna and the proteins are triggering all the immune responses that are leading to the cytokines which why is why you get mild symptoms so i'm not even clear that a breakthrough infection is actually ever going to make a productive protein i'm a little i'm a little you know i don't think we have enough information no i agree we don't we certainly don't on long cove i don't even think we have enough information to know whether or not you know so from the singapore data you would say it's it's an aborted infection it's cleared rather rapidly right within three days that that one piece that they're amplifying for the kt pcr is cleared within three days yes unlikely to be a productive infection i agree so i'm not really clear all right i do you want to do one more or what yeah one more after this jason thank you for your super chat appreciate it and then buddy groom wants to know if antibody level isn't indicative of strength of immunity why are boosters recommended how is the effectiveness measured effectiveness of what the vaccine it's solely measured on whether or not you get a high some level of antibodies right in your serum and how they quantitate those antibodies again is unclear to me because none of this is standard okay i mean the vaccines are tested to prevent disease of some sort and as antibodies decline you may get infected and get mild disease but you prevent you're protected against severe disease which may be a function of t cells and not the antibodies that are actually left in you um so that's and that's so we really don't know what protects you people think it's antibodies but we're not sure yet all right amy thank you so much all right we'll talk i'll talk to you tomorrow and decide what to do about the myosin co2 okay good night thank you very much good night bye-bye all right folks let's see oh is there data compare are there data comparing a symptomatic disease in people with natural versus vaccine induced yes there are and they're very they are similar um you know depending on the study one will be slightly better than the other the key is that people who are infected and recover they have heterogeneous immunity it's spotty right some people have good immunity others have moderate others have poor and you don't know who they are and that's why we say if you've recovered still get a dose of vaccine because then of course your immunity is phenomenal it's better than anybody else you can neutralize all variants and you can handle sars1 and mers coronaviruses so although on average the immunity after infection versus vaccination is similar and shane karate talks about that on twitter which is dropping hopefully at midnight if i can edit it tonight um it's heterogeneous yeah thank you morris for your contribution i'm glad you like the lex podcast so i appreciate having a lot of time and i think he asked thoughtful questions and let me talk right all right you have to take a different vaccine after one dose of fibers or gave you a reaction my allergist wants me to take 40 megs of prednisone for four days i don't i can't answer that i have to we have to have daniel griffin answer that i'm pretty sure he has in the past but let me check with him give shoot me an email vincent michael.tv and i'll let you know what he says recently studied by paul b nash individuals of the previous covid plus mna of really high levels yes that's what we've been saying for weeks now uh it's a several studies his is one and he was on twit recently um yes so natural infection seems to prime you to make all kinds of antibodies against all kinds of spikes that you may not even seen yet and then the boost brings those out so now you can take care of any variant and so that's why we don't use variant specific boosters just a regular ancestral virus booster is enough my uncle suffered from late-stage alzheimer's had covered before dying on monday my condolences richard i'm sorry to hear that how are deaths with multiple causes tallied does covet aggravate alzheimer's well it could if uh you're hypoxic right and you have your brain is being started with oxygen that would make it worse because we know in people without alzheimer's it does that so it depends right if in in some cases you have a diagnosis and the death is caused by covid but not in all cases and that's where we do excess mortality right where you take a baseline number of deaths in any particular country and then if you have a pandemic or an epidemic you see how far you exceed that and that's a good estimate of what is being caused by the virus you know either influenza or source cov2 so that's because you don't always have covid on the death certificate right for cause of death it depends on the doctor do endogenous micrornas inhibit viral replication they can there are some examples yes of cellular micro rnas that can inhibit but they're not they're not numerous and there are also some viruses that encode micrornas that antagonize or regulate host processes as well yes does a lower inoculum and vaccinated people give b cells more time to respond so i assume you mean michael you're vaccinated and then you get some virus in you small amount right and so yes you would have more time because if assuming the number of pfu you get is above this threshold to start infecting cells right because if you have too low a number it will be taken care of by other defenses chemical defenses and maybe innate immunity if it's above that and they're just a few cells infected initially yeah it will give more time for the memory response to kick in as opposed to if you get a big dose of virus and many many cells are infected initially there you may have a more of a symptomatic infection i mean i'm speculating right because we don't have data on this but that's what's logical to me you have answered in the past my question is does cigarette smoke carry virus and can someone be infected from smoke no you can smell cigarette smoke long distances right because they're they're organics not not large particles but they do not carry viruses no that has been looked at before if someone unvaccinated gets monoclonals isn't that the same thing as a vaccine no it's not so a vaccine is a modified form of the virus which is given to you that induces you to produce antibodies and t cells and then you have memory in the form of memory b cells the ones that make antibodies and memory t cells when you get monoclonals you're getting antibodies already made antibodies which can you know halt the infection but you will not have memory because you're getting antibodies you're not getting memory b cells so it's not the same as a vaccine it's called a passive vaccine because you're getting the product of the immune response but you're not making memory which would be an active vaccine thank you for what you do you've been a helpful guide for me through the pandemic i'm a pastor of a small church in west virginia over 90 vaccination rate in our church congratulations to you and good for you for listening to science i i'm very very happy at that and thank you for telling us richard thank you for your contribution all contributions of course go towards the incubator the incubator what's up with the incubator that's our new studio in manhattan two blocks south of penn station i i have been unable to get there this week to work on it and as you heard i wanted to go tomorrow but amy has some things that i need to help her with and that takes priority for now i had hoped to record the daniel clinical update there tomorrow evening and i don't have a camera there i don't have a recording device i don't have a microphone so i have to bring all that in tomorrow so we'll see if i do it but as i said it's my goal to get the incubator running before the end of september so i can start live streaming the course there because i'm thinking of doing it at 11 a.m and um eastern time so i'd like to do it there go right from home there that would be awesome when there's many epitopes on a single virus and there usually always are many epitopes on any protein does the immune system select for many of the epitopes are only a few well there are so not every part of the protein becomes an antibody epitope or a t cell epitope only certain parts and the b cell and the t cell epitopes are different and there are rules for what constitutes a b or a t cell epitope but as the antibody response matures right and that happens in lymphoid organs in what are called germinal centers where the antibody genes mutate and they make different antibodies they could make antibodies to an epitope they didn't see or an altered epitope say with one or two amino acid chains so you can be protected against future variance say so you don't have to make it against all the epitopes anyway because they're not all important for protection okay slovakia country in the eu yeah i do know that but i don't know every country so thank you permitted vaccination of all children above five year old with pfizer even without ema approval would you recommend it considering the fda has approved this in the u.s yet recommend it for what for other countries every country has its own regulations and standards and so i think you have to go by your own so in this country for example the fda would like you if you're coming from a different country to be vaccinated with an approved vaccine if not with their approved vaccine one of the fda approved if not you should get one of theirs so whether it's scientifically correct or not i'm i'm not going to say i i suspect these vaccines will all turn out to be safe in kids but i do want them to be tested first because we don't want to have issues right so let's be safe [Music] so i don't think it's a good idea no do we have data that relates the severity of covet to how high antibodies or adaptive immunity would be no because you know the antibodies and t cells in their first infection rise very late in infection when viral titers are already declining so they really have very little impact on the outcome of that first disease what really seems to be important is your innate immune response your interferon response early on if you have a poor response you may you're more likely to have severe disease if you have a good response that contains virus reproduction and you have milder disease that's where the data are so far looking but there's bound to be more for sure coming in the future is there any tests here we have a different virus that could distinguish between if a person has been naturally infected with varicella as opposed to having been vaccinated against chickenpox ah that's a good interesting question well so i'm not sure so varicella zoster is the name of the virus vzv varicella zoster virus because varicella is chickenpox and zoster is shingles right so you could be vaccinated you could get the chickenpox vaccine or you could get the shingles vaccine and so you would like to know if you could distinguish if a person has been naturally affected with varicell but you don't get first infected with varicella you would get chickenpox first right anyway i don't think there's any tests that can distinguish between the two not not that i am aware of uh amy and vincent and amy i just got my first my flu shot my 10 year old tetanus today and one in each arm how different or similar are bacterial vaccines to a viral well there are a whole range of bacterial vaccines they tend to be they can be inactivated bacteria they can be purified preparations from bacteria they can even be attenuated bacteria like the the tuberculosis vaccine bcg no mrna vaccines that i'm aware of but that's brand new right so i'm sure we'll see some coming um and i'm i'm going to go out on the limb saying there are no no vectored bacterial vaccines that could be wrong there i think the principles are the same and eventually they'll come to the same point because you know there are there were a lot of and still are a lot of viral vaccines that are purified viruses disrupted in some way as bacterial vaccines are many of the bacterial vaccines are purified as well the tetanus vaccine of course is a toxin toxoid it's a protein inactivated so it's not going to give you tetanus and it you make antibodies against it in t cells yeah oh kevin you you found us on lex good say lex has a big reach right a million and a half subs i i did it in part because i hope to get more people to our data to our um forum here um but i also thought it would be fun because yes good questions and it was fun had a good time very efficient fella you know it's really good okay can you name a virus or two that have beneficial effects in a human's biology now human is very hard right because we can't do the experiments we know in in mouse models there are some examples of viruses that can be beneficial and you know the one that i like is if you raise mice with it's a it's a miri norovirus basically if you raise mice without bacteria their guts are abnormal and then if you infect them with a norovirus it partially restores the defect we don't have anything like that in people because we can't do those experiments and but we have a lot of viruses that are in us all the time as we sit here all of us have many viruses they're not making us sick they're probably beneficial but we don't know how those include polyoma viruses and circo viruses they're both dna viruses double and single stranded dna viruses almost 100 percent sarah positivity in the world's population people shed them they're in the blood they're in the blood supply probably beneficial but can't prove it lots of examples in plants though of beneficial viruses that help plants be thermo-tolerant tolerant to diseases of all sorts heat the thermo tolerant i already said that a lot of great examples of that for sure you think heterologous prime booths with two different mrnas confers more robust response due to the different shells i don't think so i think they're very similar there's there are heterologous combinations that seem to be doing well like a vector an add vector than an mrna that look like they may be even better than this than the homologous if you will so we'll see about that what long-term strategies would best protect those with compromised t cells well that's a problem right because the t cells are what protect you against severe disease so strategy you have to use is to protect yourself you have to get tested often i mean you don't want to wear a mask forever but while there's high circulation in your community you should wear a mask if you're among a lot of people should get tested frequently and if you're positive go get monoclonal antibodies right away and that's the strategy that'll save you when news becomes a bit overwhelming what do you do to de-stress well you have to ask amy what she does so amy is in the lab almost all the time and often late at night when no one's around and i think she she loses herself in her experiments i stay busy i do a lot of communication right i do podcasting and writing and so forth i do like a glass of wine with dinner but i don't have one i now have dinner before the live streams and i don't have wine before a live stream because i need to be sharp it can't be any less sharp than i already am question about flu vaccine in children under 12 food vaccine offers adults partial protection against covid children already have a strong native immune system would it help them too well it might but it it has to be the uh the flu mist because that protection it's only a few months it only works with flu mist so it might yes and i early in the pandemic i advise people if they wanted they could get an mmr measles mumps rubella vaccine which is an infectious attenuated vaccine because there is some transient protection against covet for sure mu was first seen in brazil in may did not displace gamma probably will not displace delta you know this is all a competition between fitness among viruses it's what you have to remember it's not just transmission which many people think and uh and in some countries in colombia mu is dominating but it's not elsewhere so it really depends on the competition right lack of standardization really comes to four with covet is this something that might become an important topic at virology conferences is there hope for improvement well if the conference covers clinical development you know clinical assays diagnostic tests because that's where the standardization is important and then there are plenty of those next week there's the european society for clinical virology and um and i'll be doing two twists there actually this all it's all online and they'll be shown later um i'm sure they're going to discuss this for sure actually i'm going to do this on one of my sessions i can bring it up it's actually a good question i'll make some people super spreaders and why do some unvaccinated people not get infected okay so there there are so 80 of infections are transmitted by 20 of the infected people so most people are not transmitting actually so that explains why the husband is infected and the wife doesn't get it he is just not transmitting and we don't understand why it may have to do with levels of infectious virus but since we rarely measure that in people we don't have any data on it and that's what i think also so those 20 of people that transmit 80 of infections i think they make a lot of virus they shed a lot of virus and that's why they do that i don't think there are super spreaders i don't call them super spreaders there are super spreader events so if one of those people one of those 20 of people go to a crowded venue then you have a super spreading event because they're shedding a lot of virus and there are a lot of people around so they will infect 20 30 40 people or more that's what i think is going on there i think it's all about amount of infectious virus but since we don't measure it very often we don't know is it right to think that the mrna vaccine risk is a subset of virus risk other than infection injury well some some of it may be but it's always much less risk than what the virus does right so whatever the risk whether it's clotting or myocarditis the the number of those are much lower than you you get the same things as with covet infection but at much higher frequency so yes in a way it could be that they are subsets based on spike or something like that but really the the risk benefit is clearly in favor of immunization in my view now people can have their own view that's fine i don't think it's correct but you're entitled to that right so i got coveted and i started all over my dog and get covers i'm just worried yeah your dog can get covered so stay away from your dog while you're while you're sick right for sure they don't seem to get very sick though dogs and other animals okay but sometimes i don't know if it's a comment or a question for others so here we go if attenuated vaccine provides a better immune response because all of our proteins are present why can't we add additional proteins to the mrna technology yeah you could and that's being considered for sure the question is which ones the spike is the only one you need for making neutralizing antibodies but for t cells that's harder to know there's certainly t cell epitopes in spike and there's certainly t cell epitopes in other proteins right so the question is which ones and how do you you know t cell assays are not easy they're not clinically very useful so that that's going to be a hard vaccine to develop and test frankly i i've heard vaccine manufacturers say that that's why i'm repeating it to you so i'm not sure we're going to see much more than spike for the immediate future especially if it turns out that a boost really gives you the the same kind of antibody breath and affinity as infection followed by a single vaccination then that's the solution i just don't see the data yet but i'm willing to look at it and accept it if true are you vaccinated people transmitting yes your surveillance paper they calculate effectiveness of transmission 71 percent but again these are epidemiological studies it is it is one scenario a household scenario where it is easy to do that kind of contact tracing right but you could be you can be fooled uh so um i don't know how how real that number is we need more for sure concerned about rising cases of moderate covet where do you see these rising cases of moderate covet do you see a publication or is it anecdotal data you have to be very careful about anecdotal data no the boosters make perfect sense without tweaking because as i said the your uh your exposure to the spike alone in a vaccine is giving you a broad response to include variants that you haven't even seen that are not even encoded in the spike remember infection followed by a single dose you get a huge breath of antibodies that handle any variant so that infection gave you that ability and probably vaccination followed by infection will do a similar thing although we don't know the answer to that yet why are coveted deaths increasing in the uk because they're still people who are not vaccinated and you know even a small percent in a population of many millions is a lot of people and if you look at them i'll bet they are all unvaccinated with severe do with i would say severe disease and death the moderate disease has always occurred even in vaccinated people should we be worried about people developing autoantibodies to ace two in an interfering postcovit can a vaccine potentially create the same antibodies through similar pathways i don't see why you would be worried about autoantibodies to these proteins uh it's not clear to me what the mechanism would be at all so i do not worry about it if sarsko v2 is going to be endemic and most of us are going to be eventually exposed would it be better to be exposed to time of our own choosing and possible control i think it's best to be exposed after being vaccinated if you're not you're playing roulette because you don't know when you're going to get a severe infection and more importantly even if it's a moderate severity infection you might get long covered and never get over it so that's why i don't think it makes sense to be infected before you get vaccinated how much does vax and vax antibody response vary between people of the same age health so the vaccine responses are quite homogeneous compared with infection immune responses which are quite heterogeneous as i mentioned earlier shane crowdy talked about that and that's been reflected in the clinical trials where they did you know from 18 and up a very homogeneous response with antibodies and t cells well thank you rach for the invitation of the isle of man i'll i'd i'd love to go for sure someday i'll be traveling again other than austin actually next year i'm going to europe going to at least zurich in april for sure unless they think they uh cancel it do you think sarsko v2 was circulating in the u.s in december 2019 did i see some serological data about that i'm not sure if i did i would want to base it on that and i just don't remember of course for sure for january for sure i wouldn't be surprised december would be quite rare and you'd have to find it in you know banked blood or something like that could be done for sure yep but you know i it's i think it was circulating likely circulating in china mid-october early november and travel is extensive so sure why wouldn't it be somewhere in the u.s in december absolutely do you think fauci was asked by the white house to publicly support boosters i have no idea even if the he doesn't support their use i think he thinks they're needed he thinks that although currently the vaccines protect against severe disease and death he thinks it's going to wane in three months that's what he's thinking and so he wants to preempt the waning all right so i don't think it was the white house i think that's the way he's thinking vincent where does virology go in the future virology has gotten a big boost from this pandemic right in the sense that a lot of people have a lot of scientists have entered virology who are not virologists before uh i don't know how many of them are going to stay funding for virology has not increased substantially so to maintain that momentum of research you need more money i don't know if that's going to happen nih research support has always been poor for all science in the us you know the budget is 37 billion it's nothing for the kind of science that we do um it's attracted a lot of people to the field a lot of people want to get phds and do virology research which is good so in other words it potentially expanding and the ability to study a widespread infection in many ways mainly immunological those have been the best studies i think has given us a lot of information we'll continue to do so for many years so i think virology has a great future because of this impetus but more importantly we're going to keep having pandemics and we need to be ready and virology is going to be at the forefront of that so i think we need to fund it properly you don't need to fund me i'm finished with doing virology research but you have to fund labs that are doing it and fund them properly right now it's a killer to get research support for your laboratory ask amy about that so that has to improve otherwise it will die on the vine okay j and j what do you know about two doses so a press release came out last week from j from j saying the this giving a second dose of j and j really substantially boosts antibodies as you would expect but i'm waiting for the for the preprint on that i haven't seen it yet and so so far it looks good but it's only a press release in the uk they want to combine the third covid with the flu shot what effect would the adjuvant have on chaddix it would be my immune system's third encounter with the same adenovirus now i think that the adjuvant would have any effect chad ux is a virus right that is binding to cell receptors and getting into the cell doesn't care about adjuvant at all so but of course i guess your flu vaccine is adjuvant that not all of them are here in the u.s was the second of the two shot pfizer there in a regiment too soon yeah it probably was but we are trying to expedite it because we were in an emergency situation right it would probably been best to wake to wait months but until that so the problem is that in the in the clinical trials until the the second dose of the mrna vaccines you didn't have very much neutralizing antibody and your protection was not in the 90s and so the second dose did that now whether you let the first dose mature more whether you would have achieved that i i think you might have so i think more time would be best yeah at least a few months maybe you know many boosts are given months apart so i'm not sure that these are particularly adapted to three and four week intervals whooping cough versus mrna why the guidelines require two weeks before the two vaccines while others can be taken together well the ones that are taken together are tested in clinical trials to be taken together that they're safe and that they're effective right that's the only reason that people decide well tdap right tetanus diphtheria acellular pertussis and they've also combined polio vaccines with that someone thought well why don't we give kids one vaccine that has them all it's a good idea because people don't have to keep going back to the peed and so they tested it and it works and that's the reason why you see certain combinations and not others that's all you think a nasal spray will be available in 2022 no i don't think so i think probably at the best at the end the the trials will be done but it's a tough one because if cases decline they may not have enough people to do a phase three and here's the other thing now we have vaccines that are that work they're the standard of care you can no longer have a placebo-controlled trial for a vaccine it's not ethical to leave out a group and not give them anything harder to test the vaccine what you need to know is what is the correlative protection for example what level of antibody neutralizing antibody do we need to protect you after vaccination so then they could take a new vaccine and say okay it meets that level or it doesn't and we're not there yet so i think the further we get into this and the numbers decline the harder it is to make new vaccines how many doses were used in the initial series for polio when the vaccines were first introduced so initially you you got three doses each type 1 type 2 in type 3 and then they combined the three but they still had to give three doses because to cover all three serotypes you need to give three separate inoculations because they interfere with each other when you combine them but it's it's better to give them all together i think because it lessens vaccine-associated polio technically twitch forbids multi-platform blah blah blah okay well then restream is forbidden but a lot of people use restream but i don't think anyone reinforces it right i think facebook doesn't want you to do it either but a lot of people do it when will the 2122 version of the flu vaccine be available well it should be you know it's usually available by now so it isn't let's see 20 21 22 flu vaccine let's see [Music] so yes we we are making them we we have the strains um no delays in production so i don't they should be available now because they're even at the end of august they start to be available so not sure why you say that uh why can't we get rid of warts well we can we we get rid of genital warts right we because those are the ones that can cause cancers they're sexually transmitted and they're all placed all over the eurogenitary genital area okay use your imagination and um so we we vaccinate people with hpv human papilloma virus vaccine to get rid of them to prevent them from forming and it works you don't get the words and you don't get cancer however all the other warts that you get on your fingers and on your feet they could be prevented by a vaccine but they don't kill you they don't make you sick they're an annoyance right and so companies are not going to go for it because nobody's going to take it so you can't unfortunately you can't fund people to do that what is the antigenic distance hypothesis i heard about this in regards to sequential seasonal flu vaccinations so the it's another way of of original antigenic sin the first flu you see either vaccination or by infection that's the one that dominates your immune responses subsequently so if i first got infected in 2009 with h1n1 when i get subsequent vaccines i mainly make a response to that that's what it is all about and so um it's a problem right you want the response to be to the vaccination which is the current variant circulating and so it's it's hard to get around that so people are working on that okay german opera singer thank you for your contribution good heterologous prime boost so i answered that no i don't think so they're too similar do they change bio safety level classification rules for pathogens after there is already widespread community spread no they don't so west nile was was given a three years ago years ago because of experiments done actually to treat people with cancer with the virus and they got neurological infections but this shouldn't be a bsl3 because it's spread by mosquitoes right if it's never been retracted sars one has never been rejected even well there's no vaccine and and so that's a reasonable thing will soros cov2 be changed i don't think so i mean you have to petition cdc you have to have a lot of voice to do that i don't know if there's enough people doing it to petition it so it hasn't changed yet could change of course i've heard an increase of cases of young people 18 up ending in the hospital with blood clotting um after what infection vaccination i have not heard this i'm always suspicious of anecdotal data people say oh i heard this or i heard that for example here's here's a one close to home i have a friend who was fully vaccinated and he and his wife went to a i don't know a flea market or something in new jersey and a couple days later he came down with covert he got sniffles and sore throats so he was tested and he was positive and his wife five days later gets symptomatic and test positive so he said oh obviously i transmitted to her i said no not obviously the incubation period goes from 1 to 12 days so you had a short incubation period she had a longer one that's another explanation right so that's what i mean by anecdotal data yep originally anthogenic sin there you go i just told you what it is for influenza virus the nepa outbreak was described in the press as having the potential to become another pandemic well i don't think so because nipah has been causing outbreaks since the mid-90s right mostly in the nipah belt where the the bats are that harbor the virus and while it is technically possible that it could become a global so far it doesn't spread very well among people and that's what you need in order to become a pandemic right and so all the pandemics we've seen so far they emerge boom they're already transmissible highly among people so i don't i don't see it i don't see it getting to pandemic stage but i think we need to have a vaccine ready for those places where there are a lot of cases and if there ever should be a wider outbreak it would be ready oh david pakman you misheard a question about pre-party screening he asked about he asked about abbott binax rapid antigen now so as i said to to amy earlier the rapid tests are not great for asymptomatic infections they're okay for symptomatic but asymptomatic 50 to 60 accuracy so no i don't think pre-party binax now would be pcr would be the way to go for sure yep and so i did pac pac-man and friedman and i also did the university of kansas medical center podcast last friday so i did the rounds folks that's probably it for a while nobody else is asking me one in three americans had covered by the end of 2020 30 percent had covered what do i think it's probably an underestimate it's probably an underestimate maybe five-fold maybe five one in five are not being detected so i think we're getting very close to having good immunity but we're not there yet because only 50 some percent have two doses of vaccine right but perhaps we'll get there do cells have many protein based making apparatuses or do they make one protein at a time oh they have many so the protein making apparatus is a ribosome right it's a complex of rna and proteins and the mrna threads through it and the amino acids get put on make a growing protein chain and there are hundreds of those thousands all over the cell making all different kinds of proteins as needed yeah not just one at a time any comments on the spike protein being cytotoxic so i don't know what you mean if you make enough of it let's say you take cells and culture in the lab and you produce the spike protein the cells are going to fuse that's cytotoxicity and so is that a problem in people no how many millions of people have gotten mrna vaccines i have my whole family has they're all fine it's not an issue i don't know why he he and others keep saying this that doesn't really play into any issues around the mrna vaccines do some viruses accidentally duplicate their genome and pack both into a capsid do you mean put more than one genome in a capsid so sars cov2 two genomes instead of one i think not not likely with a virus with such a big genome i just don't think there's room in the capsid i think it's pretty full influenza virus though puts extra segments in for sure we know that and so there's certain there's certainly other viruses that do so naturally retroviruses put two rna copies in their virus particles so it happens with some yeah probably not with all that's all oh jason welcome glad you caught it live yes if you do it once a week eventually you're going to catch people right there's a huge audience for long form content yes i agree media ignores it because they want to get a lot of content in short with lots of ads yeah but we have been doing long form since 2008 on my podcast i thought from the beginning it would be cool we always had one to two hour shows long before many other people were doing that i always thought it was valuable and i still think it's valuable obviously although i think there's a place for short form for me short form is 15 minutes i've made some 15 minute videos that i think can be effective and i'm going to continue to make short form that's one of the things i want to do more of in the incubator hello from finland there's a lot of who baloo in my chess circles about fauci's lies any comment so i'm not sure what you mean but i can guess he he told the senate you know months ago that the nih does not fund gain of function research so i don't think that's true i think the work that was done by eco health alliance qualifies as gain of function you change the property of a bad virus you gave it a different spike and it does something different in mice that's gain of function so i don't know why you said that maybe he was thinking about some other study i'm not saying he's lying but i i don't know why he said it and um maybe he was confused maybe he's thinking gain of function is gain a function of concern the subset of gain of function where you make a dangerous virus that can hurt people maybe that's what he was thinking of i don't know he didn't ask me nobody well actually people did ask me yesterday and today because as you know the the grant application of eco health alliance has been released from by freedom of information act and i was scented by reporters and asked to comment on and there's an experiment where they take a coronavirus from bats and they replace the spike with another spike from a different coronavirus from bats and then mice it has a different property it's gain a function funded by nih done with eco health in china no question but harmless can you explain why the delta variant is more transmissible well i i choose to say it's more fit than the original it moves through human populations better there may be as an intrinsic change in the virus that makes it more transmissible so if you think of a virus going from one person to another clearly some properties would make it better at doing that like make if you could make more virus if it were more stable and if you made it for longer periods and so forth we don't know any of that no experiments have been done to address it all we do is look at epidemiology at the spread through the population and a major part we had an epidemiologist on a couple of weeks ago on twit he said movement of viruses through populations is influenced by many factors not just a virus which is some part of it but also human interactions by ecological environmental conditions and so i think the main driver of two main drivers of spread of delta have been its fitness it it out competes other variants because it probably has immune evasion properties those changes in the spike do that but also because um people have been coming together more as you know we're going back to more more so more normalcy more or less people get together and they they transmit it and so i think it's a combination of all of those things i don't think it has much of an intrinsic greater transmissibility though but that has to be studied in the laboratory my fully vaccinated daughter who wears kn95 to school has been told that she's been exposed to someone with covet and are mostly unmasked so you should test her get it tested you can do it in a number of ways and do it every couple of days just to see when she turns positive then um you you should isolate her and then you know if she's not at risk she's probably going to be okay but if she starts to feel worse then she needs to get monoclonals thank you faster tortoise should we use the word data as singular so technically the data data is a plural word right technically it's plural the data are looking good if you want to say singular it's datum which is clunky to me but people 100 percent of the time do not pay attention to that maybe me and amy and maybe kathy spindler are the only people on the planet who say the data are impressive and to to which to which people tell me you're old-fashioned you don't understand that english changes no i understand that english changes you want to use it the way you want fine i'm going to use it the way i want and i use it that way because in science we use data a lot and that's the way i was trained to use the word but you know people can do what they want for sure lex friedman linked individualism with being okay refusing the vaccine yeah i know i didn't really like that but i don't like individualism like you can have a gun either i think that's crazy but many people in this country do it's my opinion right and he doesn't care that you don't like it patricia so you know fauci has taken the view that goff requires serial passage well that's wrong that is absolutely wrong genetic manipulation is sufficient to gain a function i don't know where he's coming from with that if you you know beer is made with e so is bread if say you want to make it bread with a different taste you could modify an enzyme in the yeast and give it a new property that would be a gain of function you don't have to pass it absolutely 100 wrong sorry tony dr fauci i like tony but he's wrong on that one why are men more susceptible to moderate to severe probably hormonal you know the the susceptibility by sex varies in some cases women are more susceptible to infectious diseases in some cases women make better but in general women make better antibody responses or immune responses when they're younger um but as they get older they're not better than men and it's probably for reproductive reasons right it's been evolutionarily selected but in men the the differences are typically hormonal but the details have yet to be worked out lex interviewed me dude look look it up if you want to spend three and a half hours symptoms of long covet might be cfs and fibromyalgia so there's overlapping are there any other idiopathies that have viral etiology i don't i don't think of any offhand cfs and long covet are the two big ones that jump to my mind okay i report that the authentic mu variant is efficiently neutralized in unspecified cells by seer from people immunized with pfizer okay that's good what info will be gleaned from the uk challenge studies this is such a bad idea to take young people and infect them and you have the chance of them getting long covet anyway i think they would like to know for example how much virus you need to infect someone with to initiate an infection how how it transmits you put a couple of people in a room you infect one of them how does transmission work you know all these fundamental things that we can't know i'm just worried that the people are going to get sick and it's not worth it for that information to do that why can't we target the nuclear capsid well uh nuclear capsid will not give rise to neutralizing antibodies they will not block infection they will give rise to t cells that will kill infected cells but that's probably not enough you probably need a combination of neutralizing antibodies and t cells to give you a good vaccine the spike is good in that it induces both neutralizing antibodies and cytotoxic t cells thank you kevin for your contribution knew from lex's podcast with so many scientific titles i couldn't tell who has what knowledge or what person i should listen to well you found it for viruses but remember i have all these podcasts in different areas and each of them they have experts in the areas because i'm not an expert in any other area except viruses so you could check those out too but welcome we're glad to have you and i'm glad that lex's listeners are broad-minded like that what about other countries that do not have genome sequencing could we use pcr yeah you can amplify any part of the viral genome or human genome and sequence it i think amy was saying that that could be done or you can send the samples elsewhere where it can be done you know you can put capacity anywhere these days and during the ebola outbreak western africa didn't have any sequencing capacity so many labs went there and built sequencing capacity they brought machines there gave them to them trained them how to use them you can do that in many places so i think that's great to do that we will can we all be friends if a wait for natural immunity and please how will i find out if i have antibodies against it i don't know what you mean andrew you want to know if you have antibodies as a result of natural infection you have to get an antibody test that looks for antibodies against the nucleocapsid because that's not present in the vaccines here in the us what do you say to people that say hydroxychloric and does work for covid because it blocks attachment to ace two it doesn't that's not the mechanism and they don't care well what can i tell you it doesn't work it works in cells and kidney cells and culture but the virus is infecting your lung cells and in lung cells it does not block infection and the mechanism is not by blocking attachment so hydroxychloroquine look if you want to take your ivermectin you can get it because your doc can prescribe it off label it's an fda approved drug i don't really have a problem with that i have a problem if you take veterinary ivermectin because you can overdose and there have been many many reports of odin people odin but hydroxychloroquine does not it does not work for covent at all and it can't work and it can hurt you and it's hurting a lot of people and here in new jersey in some places they routinely give it with ivormectin hydroxychloroquine and prednisone no dexamethasone sorry it's crazy so i don't know what to say friedman opened up people to true quality research based discussion that's good he did that long before me for sure right have you heard about the efforts to make a vaccine against the bacteriophage i have not and i don't know why you'd want to do that because they can be good right they regulate your microbiome have you heard of studies that involve nasal irrigation not formal clinical trials people say this works but it's only going to be temporary because there'll be a decrease in the viral load and then it will go back up again as cells continue to produce a virus so i don't think they're going to be of any use whatsoever unless you want temporary protection so i go to the dentist you gargle right for 30 seconds you decrease viral load but you're in there for a half hour and then you're gone so maybe that helps but them wearing a mask is better oh he broke it up into smaller segments i didn't know that cool very good someone broke it up to the part where i said ivermectin was used in new jersey and he said see that could be used to show that ivormectin is good i said i have no control of over how people break stuff up they broke up my interview with peter dassack to show that dassak made the virus source cov2 right isn't that crazy and that was um on fox news one one day where's a good place to get rapid antigen tests what do you mean a good place to get them you can buy them at your drug store right by next now is a good two tests for like 30 bucks or something like that the spike is not cytotoxic in us as far as we know in the sense that it does damage it may be in cells but it doesn't matter okay we are getting near to when i have to stop at 10 because oh look at 766 people i have to eat dinner and i have to finish editing twit which i like to post at midnight and um i don't want to delay that so we'll stop at 10. um here we go we're just down to where amy is is uh oh my gosh you guys have so many great questions i love it i'm sorry i can't get to that but one of these days i will stay um till the end until i get through all the questions i'll see how many people remain i'll do that one of these nights okay 400 likes is that the most we ever had it might be i don't know what do you think are some of the main factors responsible for us not enabling cheap rapid at home i think as amy said earlier we don't have a good high affinity antibody and that's the key and we didn't have it three months in and we don't have it now it's really hard to do thank you a b for your contribution what kind of variant would dodge vaccine effectiveness well it depends what you mean by effectiveness you can measure effectiveness against mild disease or severe disease and death right now no variant is is largely evading severe disease and death right because the efficacy against that severe disease and death remains in the high 90s for for example mrna vaccines now the efficacy against mild disease has decreased as antibody levels decrease and you could and i think that's also a problem with the variance being not neutralized as effectively but i'm not sure how that plays into it so i don't see any variant arising that evades the vaccines because so far they're protecting you and so as i said if you are infected and recovered and you get a one-shot vaccine you can handle any vaccine that will ever come up most likely so i have no worries that the the virus is going to outstrip the vaccine at some point i think those are fallacies and wrong simply wrong reverse transcriptase any day of the week well look i i think it's a very cool enzyme but i spent my career working on the corner viruses with an rna-dependent rna polymerase so i have to pick that because i know more about it than anything else i guess all right let's see let's go through and find some we're just getting to the part where you guys are defending amy that's great and that was way back when let me thank some of your super chats thank you charlotte really appreciate your donation uh yes you know where you stand with amy okay that's great it's not like she's fooling you into thinking that she likes you and she doesn't she she'll just tell you i'm just curious you need to change out the co2 so we have tanks of of uh co2 which we purchase they're big they're almost as tall as me and they feed into our cell culture incubators and we make the atmosphere five percent co2 and that combines with the bicarbonate in the cell culture medium to act as a buffer so it's a it's a bicarbonate-based buffer because as cells grow they metabolize they produce lactic acid and the medium would get acidic quickly and that wouldn't be good for the cells so this buffers it so five percent co2 is for the buffering and so we have four tanks connected to our our three incubators there's a backup but as soon as one goes to zero i change it and i change it out because it's too dangerous for anybody else to do including amy i don't want her to change it so that's why i go in i also change the liquid nitrogen which is used to keep the cells frozen it's just a huge tank about wider than i am and taller than me full of liquid nitrogen you attach to your freezer and it pumps in liquid nitrogen as to keep the cells cold and it runs out every two weeks or so so i change that as well because you have to make sure you get the bolts right otherwise it leaks now when i'm gone i don't know what's going to happen you'll have to figure something out i just happened to see that tell us more about your friend who had kovid went and he went to a new jersey hospital and he and his wife had serious covey they were both vaccinated but they had health issues and they automatically gave them hyvermectin hydroxychloroquine and dexamethasone and then a day later rem deserver it's just so messed up to do that i'm sorry you talked to daniel griffin he's the doc i'm not a doctor okay talk to daniel griffin and ask him what he says about it he'll do more he'll be more diplomatic than i am but that is just not a good thing to do because at least the hydroxyl organ doesn't work at all it can hurt you yeah many states are the hospitals are full of covert because they're overwhelmed right hospitals only have so much capacity they don't have infinite capacity they can't afford to keep infinite capacity so the pandemic has pushed them the beds get filled up people are overworked and so forth and those are states where many people are not vaccinated so that's an issue so people should at least have some consideration for the health care workers but i think they don't think about that thank you ditching for your contribution appreciate it so uh yeah richard what's his name richard e bright at rutgers a big anti gain of function he called me a cult which i thought was derogatory because mostly cults tell people stuff try to convince people of stuff that's not good right i certainly don't do that i think if you want to follow me and learn then that could be a cult but you know cult has a bad implication i think most of the time a lot of good questions here but come back next week okay um i have to figure out a way to get yeah university of kansas health center really good content they have great docs on by the way i'm really impressed with them and they're going to come on twit in the future the um [Music] the questions are awesome here you you guys are amazing thank you pamela for your contribution uh to our uh incubator the new the new studio uh if someone has no antibodies by the way they need to get monoclonals not ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine thank you home for your contribution catalin kariko and drew weissman should get the nobel for the mrna vaccines that's right oh good luck going back to school good good luck and hope you're safe let's see what other thanks here we have mary super chat thank you you know we really appreciate your contributions it helps us keep this going and i don't want to charge people for knowledge i think knowledge should be free um and so i give mine away the only thing i don't is the book the textbook which is not published by me but you can bet if i wrote a textbook my own i'd give it away thank you kevin long covid i already answered that some time ago looking for super chat sandy thank you so much really appreciate your contribution bill thank you i understand that with no ability to test for optimization the physio vaccine dose was kept low would this explain why a booster might be necessary no i don't think so because i think pfizer and modern are pretty close despite the dosage different difference it could be that a third dose is what you need to round it out i mean that's what you know fancy said you say oh most of our vaccines are three doses he said actually and amy told me this today we always plan for there to be three doses i never heard that that's news to me i don't think they planned for three doses they're just learning as they go along so just be honest i think it could work out we'll see i just don't think the science is there so far oh thanks for all the thumbs up oh i wanted to do this one any tips on finding reading academic papers in general so you know my pods all pick great academic papers and you should go and look at their reading lists and start there i think that would be a good start what i think of dna plasmid vaccines i don't think they work very well in humans they have not worked out for hiv that's for sure so i think mrna is far better dna vaccines work in animals interestingly but they don't seem to work in paper paper uh thank you bailey for your contribution where did you did you read the nature paper hybrid immunity yes absolutely we've talked about this quite a bit um there's more than one and that's what karate called it yesterday um hybrid immunity yep a lot of good questions take them back next week folks mark thank you for your contribution they might ask me back they seem to their listeners seem to enjoy it so i'll go back anytime for sure thank you hsu for your contribution really appreciate it lots of people seem to have seen the kansas appearance that's great the more things i do i think the more people i can hit and maybe a fraction of them want to come and learn transient oh thank you for your contribution been enjoying your update since while babysitting weather overnight since this little piggy went to market our first covid episode wow good for you thank you so much for your contribution what do you think about deer can you get in fact i don't think so you don't get very close to deer unless you hunt them and then you could infect yourself that way but i think the risk is pretty low but i do think um yeah the deer are infected that's for sure and what else is out there is infected that's going to be interesting to find out thank you patricia for your contribution really appreciate it i know folks that you're waiting for me to wrap this up so you can leave a few more minutes thank you patricia is there lymphoid tissue in the nasal mucosa yeah there is there is nasal mucosa associated lymphoid tissue nalt uh could that be preventing infection well it would contribute to it right it has b cells and t cells which will not just sense the infection but will send out cells to combat it yeah for sure and any more contributions that i have to thank ronnie thank you so much you rocked on lex and pac-man thank you i really appreciate that so many folks listened mr ozzycam hello mr ozzycam i will answer your email i i it's going to take me a little time that's why i haven't yet but tomorrow i'll get to it i'm sorry my apologies overjoyed thank you for your contribution sean thank you vna cult member here yes the vna cult it's a good cult rob thank you so much for your contribution yeah anyone who would call twivicult would equally call every university well some people do right some people think they're teaching poor things but of course not always and there you go that'll do it for this q a with a v thanks everyone for joining us tonight thanks for your great questions please bring them back next week we'll be back on wednesday 8 p.m eastern time goodnight everybody stay safe

Channel: Vincent Racaniello

Views: 12,278

Rating: 4.8826766 out of 5

Keywords: virus, viruses, viral, virology, COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2, pandemic, antibody, vaccine, variant, delta variant, mu variant

Id: Lm_P3s1FoJA

Length: 121min 20sec (7280 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 08 2021