Coronavirus: Gabor Maté on How Your Past Is Affecting Your Present | Feel Better Live More Podcast

cigar ball welcome back to the podcast well nice to be back if at a distance if at a distance yeah last time we spoke we were face to face maybe a meter away in a studio in London and now we are what thousands of miles away looking at each other over a screen through this amazing thing called technology I recorded an extra and sort of special podcast last weekend with someone called Judson Brewer who is a psychiatrist and a behavioral neuroscientist and he was just saying where we talk about the virus and how contagious it is he said what's really interesting about the times in which we live is that we've got social media we've got the Internet so we can with the content we put out we can sneeze on the brains of everyone all over the world and I thought that was really interesting analogy how you know what's with what the virus being contagious but our thoughts and our actions and what the panic and fear that we might put across to the people around us but also online that can also be contagious as well can't say well the director of the World Health Organization talked about and in film info demmick as well as a pandemic and i i've wondered maybe the same thing that you've wondered which is that on the one hand the the media and the internet is a lot of information to be delivered to a lot of people instantaneously as necessary and it's a good thing bernetta and i also think that the constant engagement with with the information about the virus has a viral significance of its own so that the panic and the fear is also spreading virally so I think that technology I think is showing both its potential for informational deficiency and at the same time as as deserve as a agent the carrier of a viral fear yeah and I think that's happening yeah I think it is definitely happening before we get stuck into the meat of today's conversation the the conversation you had with me last time on this podcast it had such a profound impact on people I was recently asked on episode 100 of this podcast what was the most impactful conversation I have had so far and I've got to say it was it was hard because there were so there were some great conversations but I actually said the conversation I had with you probably had the most impact on me personally you know certainly compared to anything else I think and I think for people who are not familiar with you and are coming to you for the very first time through this conversation I think it's worth us just briefly summarizing what we covered last summer what your philosophy is and you know again I don't want to you know reduce an hour and 40 minute conversation that we had last time down to this but fundamentally you're believers and said that addiction comes down to our experiences and childhoods and you know when I say addiction a lot of people think oh it's about drug abuse or alcohol abuse but we're talking about something much broader than that about humm how much of society is now addicted whether it's addicted to Instagram or shopping or sex or drugs or alcohol or whatever is is that a reasonable value very brief summary for people who are new to your work well know okay and and and the reason why I know it is is that it's a brief and reasonable summary of an aspect of my work yeah but really right or wrong my and I believe right my work was much broader than that I'm saying that not just addiction or whether to sex drugs throughout the mall or substances but any kind of mental so-called pathology and not just mental pathology but much of physical pathology can be traced to childhood experiences and how we cope with those experiences and what those experiences did to our physiology to the functioning of our genes and to the functioning of our emotional apparatus which makes us behave in certain ways that either promote or protect us from illness so what I'm saying is that a lot of what to be physicians see in clinical practice whether it's physical or mental health issues can be traced to not exclusively because genetics always comes into it and other factors but that it can always be traced to early experiences in life and not only early experiences in life but also experiences throughout life so that really the fun message if I can sum it up was briefly as I possibly can is that we're not separate physiological organisms were part of a much larger role which includes the entire family system multi-generationally ever born into and the culture room which would go up in and function in and so that when it comes to individual disease it is narrow reductionism to biology to think that physicalness is only a physiological event in a separate individual when it really manifests an entire life in an entire context an entire culture so really I'm what I'm talking about is the unity of mind and body and the interconnection between the individual and the environment I think that's just short of the way I can sum it up yeah for sure and I didn't you know I probably could have phrased a little bit better and that that was certainly one of the key aspects we discussed in our previous conversation rather than a summary of your entire work and as you know I'm a huge fan of you know your your philosophy and I think you're at the heart of your philosophy is compassion and it's a real deep understanding of why people have ended up where they've ended up why they behave the way in the way in which they behave and then we're gonna come inside so think compassion is something that is really interesting set to observe what's happening Society at the moment when I think we are being quite judgmental but what comes out a little bit later I think what you just said there about our childhoods and it's really interesting in the moment because many P or feeling that this is a very traumatic time for them and you use the word trauma a lot when talking about people's lives and I think it's probably worth defining what you mean by trauma whatever started this conversation sure so trauma I think is much more widely experienced than the marrow medical definitions would allow for trauma is really the word comes from the Greek word for wound uh trauma it won't so when you think metaphorically of a wound what happens all right I earned it either it's raw and painful and every time you touch it you experience extreme pain or you develop scar tissue over it and the scar tissue is fake in a hard and it doesn't have nerve or so doesn't feel but it's also not very flexible and it has no capacity of a girl so trauma is when there's a deep hurt so take the present coated viral crisis a lot of people are responding with extreme fear no fear is a natural response to a threat so there's nothing wrong with that as such but the fear is not universal and it's not shred baby went to the same degree now people that were hurt in child to them experienced of salt on them they have fear built into the nervous system and into their immune system building into their own physiology when something happens later on in life that is there's a fearful connotation that old fear gets triggered in other words a lot of the the neuron with the genuine concern and a genuine a genuine alarm I'm not gonna talk about that I'm talking about the planet that many people experiencing that is the triggering of childhood fear rather than just a response was happening in the present so one of the impacts of trauma of that wound of trauma is that when things happen in the present our response reflects on past experience that's one of the one of the aspects of trauma the other aspect is range is not as flexible in our responses our responses are more programmed rather than chosen by us consciously yeah with that in mind and given that a lot of trauma happens in childhood of course it doesn't exclusively happen in childhood but obviously has a has a significant impact when it does happen in childhoods at the moment certainly here in the UK things have changed dramatically all schools are closed all non-essential work has been closed down people are working from home often you have to parent families working from home and their kids are in the house at the same time and there is this kind of this cauldron now of emotion and stress and anxiety that probably didn't exist at least not in the same way just a few weeks back and I think that's gonna pose and bring it a lot of interesting feelings a lot of interesting dynamics and relationships over the coming weeks and months I think it's already happening so if we just dive into childhood for a minute how can we reduce or minimize the impact that at this global pandemic is having on children both from a perspective of yes the virus or and and so far it looks as though children are seem to be minimally affected by the virus even though they can't get it and pass it on very very quickly without showing any symptoms but I'm talking about stress and if their parents are stressed around them and the parents are trying to work at home but the kids are around and they want to see their parents and the parents you know without realizing it also occiput anxiety and stress on their kids that could have implications for the rest of that child's life so I don't want to alarm people but what I'd love to do is have a conversation with you about what sorts of things should be be watching out for and what can parents do yeah I don't know that it's such a broad issue and yeah you know and then and it's so collective but I don't know that anything you will say here will be adequate to the situation but but let me just come from my perspective first of all what you said about these emotions stretches didn't exist a week a few weeks before well that's one possibility the other possibility is that we've always carried these emotions and stresses it's just that we were able to distract ourselves from it so so one of the because let's face it you know I'm gonna get to travel and it so happens that right now I'm at home writing a book so this is not affecting my work situation but ordinarily I'll be traveling and speaking and teaching and you know people would be grateful and might be engaged and so on well that's a great way for me to separate myself from my own internal distress in other words you know the work itself can be a distraction I think it's a part of us you know and so is it that those emotions weren't there before or suggest that now we have no distraction from them you can't go out and have a drink we can't join our friends at the football game we can't go to power up we can't gather around the water cooler or work or whatever you know so that's that's the one thing and so from that point of view I think it's an interesting time and I think it's time for people to know what is the emotions that arise for them and to really question well okay I had this emotion the crisis is new it's a novel virus and it's a novel situation but all these emotions really know oh lord what kind of know them for me inside already and to speak about myself I've been saying for some time now that even though I'm not that personally affected because I get to be at home anyway and I can go for walks and go for by Triple rides and so on but there's a strange feeling in my chest and tummy it's like this something here that isn't usually there and just this morning I was thinking well is that really new or does this really go back to my infancy perhaps when they were very strange and threatening times in the world Second World War Eastern Europe Jewish family and for the book that I'm writing right now a lot she just looking at prenatal stresses and all the stress on my mother translates into stress on the infant in the uterus physiologically and that mothers who were anxious prenatally their children the brain structure is different by the time you get to peaceful and their behavior can be affected so what I'm saying is I think a lot of us are program very early and a lot of what's coming on right now is their early programming and that's different from the that's different from the genuine response to a natural challenge that we are truly facing in the world yeah so I think it's an opportunity for us to observe what's happening so nurses telling people what to do what I'm suggesting here is let's be curious about our reactions let's really experience our bodies like if you should feel this tension in your chest to distract yourself actually pay attention to it and be curious about it and just sit with it and if we can sit with our own fear we can see with our children's fear if we try to push through it and pretend that it isn't there and just offer bland reassurances but at the same time but roiled up inside ourselves our kids can sense that so I think the best thing we can do for kids is to take care of ourselves yeah I mean just as always the wonderful answer and you know something I've been thinking about a lot recently and I actually are supposed to Johann Hari yesterday and I was just saying to him that for me it feels as though our system has been stress tested at the moment so you know very similar to what you said in a sense that are these emotions really new or in life you know very much like I do let's say you've got a right hamstring problem and that only comes up when you run well if you're walking around in your life and you're walking out the way you never experienced that so you think everything's fine but when you start running you realize oh oh my hamstrings hurting it was always there but the running has you know taking you to that threshold now where it's where it's exposing itself and and very much I think it's what you're saying is that is that these emotions were probably there in all of us yet I love that but that whole idea about distraction is something I miss Whitley something I'll sit with a lot over the last couple of years it's it's thinking why do we do certain behaviors why does somebody go to the pub and drink eight to ten pints of lager or drink a bottle of wine every night and why does somebody else for example you know scroll Instagram for three or four hours in the evening and I can't get away from the thought for many of us whatever we choose ultimately is the distractions it's a distraction from sitting with ourselves a sitting with our own discomfort and maybe the opportunity now is if you want to take this opportunity instead of distracts yourself with the news endless news cycles on what's going on which is obviously an easy thing to do I love what you're saying sits with it understand yourself understand is this a new feeling and I guess what you're fundamentally talking about Kapoor is awareness I'm talking about awareness and believe in a culture globally but certainly in North America in the UK that's so so intent on distraction I mean you go to the restaurant there is love music playing and five TV screens and all are showing different programs what's that all about it's about destruction rather than just sitting there quietly and being with each other and ourselves and although we still have the internet and we still have the cell phones and still have the television set still the possibility of distraction have been diminished now I think that for a lot of people even watching all the news about the virus is a distraction rather than being with how it is for them because really how much time a day do you have to spend reading about the virus to find out what's going on five minutes and five minutes you can get the latest information now when you spend three hours today or further theyõre compulsively and I don't have myself this I'm not criticizing others very you know it's reading what does the Guardian say about the virus orders in your time say about it what is this honey the newspaper or that no what am i doing I'm actually distracting myself from just how it is for me and so that even even reading about the virus can be a distraction from the feelings that the virus has triggered in us yeah it's interesting that the system being stressed tested at the moment so you know a lot of a lot of people said after our first conversation and I've seen on other YouTube videos that you've done you know well that's great but how do I deal with the trauma how do I deal with it and obviously that's in many ways that a million-dollar question was there there are much more modalities I think so be from my view have a different perspective that can help us process trauma once we become aware of it but in this kind of situation where certainly the volume on everything seems to be turned up to a max people who already were feeling anxious are feeling more anxious than ever before people who didn't realize or actually thought that they didn't have a problem with anxiety are now feeling anxious the process of dealing with that trauma can take time it can take weeks months years sometimes as I've shared before I I'm on my own process with that with it with a system called internal family systems ifs which I found incredibly helpful for me in terms of my own personal happiness my relationship with my wife my relationship with my children my ability to be a good or what I hope is a good doctor that has helped me no end and I realize now that I can look back on previous behaviors and look at the father are you were distracting you weren't a happy you were doing that to gain external validation to get whatever it was because I couldn't sit with what was actually going on inside me and so in this situation where families are rowing at the moment you know couples are spending more time with each other than ever before you know I think there's going to be some relationship issues that have brought to the surface for many people there is gonna be you know with with children I know this is happening cuz people have already reached out for help on this saying look I'm snapping at my children a lot and I think there's an interesting problem here where if we snap our children and they're already scared by this situation let's save maybe they're watching the news but then if if the way we can help them is to be present with our own thoughts and and present with our own feelings and sit with them that's a long-term process and I guess what I'm trying to gather yeah and I don't I don't think there are some simple tests but I'm wondering if a parent in that in that moment is feeling why the kids not letting me work you know got all this work to do and they want a snap what is this something they can do is it like taking a step they're having a deep breath you know going outside and then or is it is it simply explaining to the kids hey guys look I'm really stressed at the moment and no you guys just wanna talk to me but how feeling really really stressed can I have 5-10 minutes to myself I mean I don't know have you got any practical guidance in the moment well before I get to that do things when I'm just struck or here we are you trained as a as the internal medicine specialist or yeah internal medicine initially and that I meet so family medicine and I remember that so between all the years of training and practice that you know I've had three over three decades of medical practice and all the three years of training between you and I was just nothing you know training prepared us for this dish I am so here we have you having this conversation trying to come up with some wisdom for people by just turning people although people are listening to us Ryan and I we weren't trained in this yeah no nothing I mean our experience we can bring to bear the experience and whatever wisdom we have gleaned from that but nothing in our training prepared us tools this is just bigger than all of us that's the first point but the second point is I'm struck by your phrase about how the system is being we're being stress tested now that that has a specific connotation and in medical language you put somebody who's at you it's like there's heart disease or you want to rule or that they don't and you push them through a stress cardiogram you put them on a treadmill and you have them run and you do a cardiogram how does the heart respond to the extra oxygen demand apprentice well that's what's happening to all those people I like your phrase about that we're being tested now to see about our emotional oxygen supply yeah and so and so when we're at home snapping in our kids or or or being cancer ourselves or whatever happens with our spouses this is the stress test and and the distress car um cardiogram will reveal which is walking to go back to your analogy of the hamstring and the stress cardiogram will reveal the real estate of your heart whereas just lying in bed will not yeah uh or walking even slowly in the street well not you know only she but really severe heart disease so yes I really like that way of putting it that assisted me being stressed that just tested and not just an individual but also on a social level now I haven't answered your question I know worse it's easier for me to theorize in this personal book what what actually to do but yes I think awareness as you said and if I know this is that tension in me that's a I don't believe in timeout sym parenting and there's the punitive timeouts but I've certainly believe in a parent taking a timeout and saying you know I just noticed a tense I am I need to go on a balcony and take a few breaths or I need to sit and just think or I just need to listen to a piece of music right now to call my autonomic nervous system you know so in other words do something that we ordinarily don't do enough most of us in our lives which is to allow ourselves to ever upset emotions and give them some space without acting them out on the people that are close to us so take that time and I mean do check-in and don't be ashamed to acknowledge your vulnerability and you're upset but don't make it don't make it your charge problem yeah I mean what we were calling this 6 p.m. UK time so you know just to share an experience it just happened with me like I've you know I'm a pretty optimistic guy generally speaking I was think things are going to be ok and I on a personal level you know I'm not getting too panicky or anxious about what's going on in the world at the moment I think I would have done in the but at the moment I'm not for whatever reason I'm not but what I am doing and I'm all I'm super aware that if I as I express what's been going on with me I've no doubt that you may you may dissect it out for me shortly and tell me what I really mean by it in a good way but I have been putting a little bit pressure on myself to communicate regularly with my followers in public I was on BBC news two or three times last week on the radio a few times and I really felt that at this moment when people are really feeling scared I really wanted to go on and actually try and be a voice of calm and reason and share some positivity I've also put a lot of pressure on myself to put out lots of information on social media to try and help people more podcast to help people and I realized today I wasn't feeling great just a few hours ago I was feeling actually said to my wife I said hey babe you know what I think I think I just need to chill out a little bit and actually just forget about doing all that for a half a day or or one day it doesn't matter you know I need to just just be aware that this I don't need to put this much pressure on myself anyway the point I'm trying to get to is that my kids are at home at the moment and you know at about five o'clock you know coz I'd be working most of the day they're like aw daddy daddy could we play outside and it sort of snapping you minx I thought I've got to check the Skype connection is working I've got to shut my microphones all this kind of stuff I just said hey darling listen I would love to play with you at the moment but you know I've got this podcast that we really look forward to doing with Kabul masse and what I know so god what might they work go ahead what he did actually but I don't know was gonna say that but he did actually say that but I just explained it to him I said look but I'll tell you what if you fancy game of table tennis for 5-10 minutes that's gonna really help daddy unwind a little bit because I've been feeling quite tense if you want to do that that would be great you know what I've realized I'm about just one instant I found that when I explain things to the kids and my son's nine but I do so my daughter who's seven as well that is something I don't think I used to do five six years ago there's something I've first my wife has been incredible here because she's always wanting to explain things and explain feelings to the to the kids and I think I very much learned from her there but you know what they get it and they're like yeah okay daddy cool I get it and it's it's I'm sharing that because a I want to but B maybe that's going to be of use to someone listening to this one bear in that situation I would just be honest with your kids because I think a lot of the time they prefer that than just you snapping at them and saying or not you I'm not trying to judge anywhere else I'm saying me then snapping I'll be no no no you know I've said haven't got time I think we're gonna have very two different two very different outcomes depending on how you interact with your kids in those moments well I think you sure the beautiful example first of all you didn't make the kid wrong for one could be with you or leave me alone I don't know to do it you said I'd love to spend time with you it's just such and such just happening and then II actually explained what it was like for you and only that you'll offer them a possibility of actually helping you yeah no it's not that we should expect their kids to help us but kids want responsibility and when they're able to handle it hey you're playing a game with you we'll help you calm down isn't that great yeah I'm almost very very important person you know so I mean that's great going back before them I'm sure that if you don't exporters internal family systems were you can realize that that when you said you put pressure on yourself you probably say a part of you was putting pressure on you and and at some point you might want to a VA if you haven't already inquired about that part well why is that part pressuring me and I'm sure you're gonna find out I don't have to tell you do i well I mean have you done that inquiry I've been sitting with that like I've I've not got to the bottom off it but I'd say I've certainly observed that and I've been you know writing a few thoughts hours and thinking where is that coming from and I'm sort of which part of that is me and I have a again I think I need to spend a bit more time sitting with my thoughts not distracting myself with work and trying to help others run actually maybe it's time to sort of spend a bit more time helping myself but you know I think I've got a pretty good idea if where this might come from in my early childhood in terms of what I perceived was important for me to do so I yeah I would love to spend a bit more time there but yes I agree it is a part of me it's not really me as it's a part of me so a couple of things one is I think a lot of us there go into medicine we have this messianic mission to save the world you know now that's different from a conscious decision to help people so I'm not talking about yes we're here to help people and it's a sacred task that we take on but but the pressure behind it sometimes that I gotta save the world and if and if I'm not doing enough that I'm not enough that's charter trauma so in my case I mean I can pretty much guess what it was in your case but in my case it was having a very unhappy depressed mother when I was very very young and it was my job to make her show there and if I didn't I was not fulfilling my task you know so that pressure always comes from from charcoal programming number one number two I'm glad to you listen to your body and because you know you know my book when the body says no literally this is an example of it your body starts saying no no this is too much and then you start white so I think people need to listen to their bodies really what you're describing here is somebody who from childhood programming puts the pressure on them so fast no the pressure you put on yourself that's different from your genuine desire to communicate that's different from your genuine desire to be there for people it's different from your genuine assumption of responsibility because you created yourself as a healer not just in the clinical individual sense but also in a larger sense and so people look to you and so you that's a natural process in it's good that's got nothing to with pressure yeah that's just the choice you make I'm gonna choose this I'm not gonna choose this I'll do this much I won't do that the pressure is obvious in charter so what you're describing is just what we're talking about part about trauma is that there's something some part of you that still believes that in order to validate your existence you've gotta put pressure on yourself to do more than your body can there and you recognize that yeah that's really what we're asking people to do is to just be aware of themselves for people who heard that and thought okay I know I'm thinking about certain situations I can feel things you know like for me when I'm feeling that pressure I get it in my upper right back I I know exactly where it is and it for me it's become as I become aware it's become my it's like a warning signal for me it's like ah you know you there it is okay what's going on what's going on in life okay cool you you're putting you knew too much is going on bloody body but you know it's it's I think awareness is always key because many people I think are walking around oblivious to what the what signs that body is what signals the body is giving to them they're just sort of medicating it or drinking the way through or distracting their way to the point where they don't feel it but you know you mentioned before you feel something you felt something before this kind of was an uneasy feeling in your chest or abdomen I think you said let's do this yeah and for someone who's thinking okay I can do that what should they then do like there's it there's awareness as observing it and then it is there something they can do after that's or is it it's the main thing just to sit with it and be aware well during that question around if your child is feeling anxious what would you do he would you know you you you'd ask ask them what's going on you would say you talk softly you'd treat them with compassion you say hey look you know what do you feeling anxious about sis you try and help them wouldn't you yes you know that's based on trust or just being with them like yeah you wouldn't you wouldn't ignore them you would just get on with your life and okay never mind your interest but I'm not going you know this so it's that attention I think that's the biggest part of it and then the attention plays out in the ways that you just described you know what's happening what is relaxed about but you told them you'd be with them you know company is your presence it's your capacity to be present with them that's the soothing influence on the child yeah and then what you say is actually secondary you know what you would not do is talk to motivating nor then make them long for it give them advice that they didn't ask for you know um so just attending I think is really the answer itself because when you once you attend and and and and if you can attend it to yourself I mean I I teach this method called compassionate inquiry and and if you can just bring that compassion to yourself oh you got this feeling here okay well let's just sit with it I just notice that they just allow let's not say there's anything wrong with you well that's not I'm trying to talk you out of it let's not ignore it I believe that that process and and then okay yes it's a familiar feeling if I experienced this before oh yeah it's not a that you know that attention I think that's the that's the healing part and and for the healing process and you might have to do that fear for time today as you would with your child big a long time yeah if the the big feeling that's coming up for me is we're having this conversation is that the some of us could this global situation for all the you know all the the problems that are there were there and of course that's gonna be you know rightfully people are concerned over the people who are gonna get sick and when neither one of us is trying to minimize that but just just trying to look at the other side for a minute some of us could this be the biggest opportunity for growth that we have ever lived through you know many of us have not stress tested the system certainly you know I'm in my early forties I don't recall the time like this ever I actually before the the strict self-isolation rules came in in the UK about a week and a half ago I went round to my elderly neighbor who's 91 who aren't really seen for about six weeks and I I thought what maybe you should really just go and check but she's okay her kids don't live nearby she's by herself there's all this kind of isolation so I went rounds I knit cinch everything was okay and I said to her hey look there's any part of this remind you of the war this era World War and she said no not at all I said really she goes yeah then for me she said this is what she said to me she said then we have this sort of common enemy we all came together we congregate we did things together this feels like it's invisible and I don't know where the enemy is I found that really really interesting as an idea that you know coming full circles what I was saying it's this idea that we've never experienced anything like this before so if we look and if we pay attention we could maybe discover things about ourselves that we've never had the opportunity to observe in the past you're always thinking about just before you talked about the war that's exactly the question that was coming up in my mind and and to go back to that person you mentioned not known as enemy invisible you're compassionate and and and and giving next-door neighbor was bringing in you groceries might be carrying the enemy into your porch you know that's really weird in that sense this is this is something new isn't it it may be too early to talk about what we need to learn here or what some of the lessons are but I mean I I can't help I mean we did I think systemically and put some writing a new book about my new book is the myth of normal illness and health in an insane culture that's the book I'm working on right now Wow so I'm looking at the large culture of pictures so you're speaking to me from the UK well there's some questions that at some point will need to be asked and maybe is now is not the time just yet but it may prefer to me the what degree does the the cutbacks in the natural in international health service have been impaired your country's capacity to respond to the current crisis and there's already some questions and articles about that in the British press like I've seen that to what degree does a society with huge divergences of the wealth and power levels of inequality let me know from Sir Michael Marmot and other British researchers the health impacts of inequality and of course it's the people that would underlying health conditions who are most prone to fall victim to this disease well that's not just a part of the vibe that's not just a viral effect that's also social effect so I won't say more about that now except to mention that your question about what can we learn here it is applicable not just at an individual level but also in the social level I think it's very important that when we've dealt with the acute crisis that those conversations we begin in earnest and very very deeply on the individual level I think we're well I think certain things are becoming clearer when as as I said in another conversation recently isn't is just clarifying what our values really are what's really important in life yeah how much of work were you engaged in and thought was essential four weeks ago seems relatively trivial now compared to how we feel about ourselves probably feel about each other what communality that we have I'm a solidarity we can experience and generate or receive how much love and compassion we can experience for ourselves and others aren't just aren't these just the most important things and doesn't it just warm your heart when you see these videos from Italy with people serenading each other from their rooftops and their dog you know yeah so so III think that's already emerging is what's really important to us the other thing that's emerging is which goes along with the entire causation of human eye thing is what are our internal resources that we can contact to get her through this I mean this really is a training in a certain sense it's like heavy lifting heavy lifting makes your muscles stronger if you don't strain yourself too much and and so what internal resources can you muster look to and find to help us deal with this current threat to our well-being as individuals there's a society so I think this powerful teachings here you might be too close to it yet to know what the teachings will be but we can do what you're doing already which is to look upon it as a learning opportunity yeah and and and and and and as we go through it keep bugging ourselves keep asking ourselves okay what is here to be learned what is here to be learned what can I learn today yeah you mentioned inequality and you know we know all around the world but serving here in the UK that you know depending on which postcode you live in your house how come your your your lifespan could be up to ten years lower and it's to do with income and poverty and all kinds of other factors which are probably the biggest determinants of health actually and it's interesting for me that when we talk about equality and inequality in that context we can also look at it in a global context in the sense that we've been so individualistic as a society but on an individual level that's all about me you know can I earn what I need to earn and actually buy the house and get the job that I want irrespective what's going on around me countries have been doing that we need to make sure we're the strongest and we've got our everything in order but hold on a minute now we've got this global problem it doesn't really matter whether you're a rich country or a poor country in the centre that virus can still come and penetrates in and therefore it's like what is it possible for us to be individually well whether you talk about a person or a country if all around us is unwell I don't think it is well and that's another big lesson here isn't it because we live our lives as you say as if we could just avert our eyes so much happiness over the world but if we're honest about it and I may have said this before what if all the sudden I told you that there's a preventable illness that kills 800,000 people in Europe every year tens of thousands in the UK 15,000 here in Canada 8 million around the world if I tell you that the to preventable disease you'd say well yeah what is it and how it's per visitor Brenda Bohle why don't be prevented well there's such a disease called air pollution air pollution kills that many people every year the number is that the corner virus has claimed so far it's nowhere I mean nowhere near that now which is not to say to minimize the the viral threat but it's to say that we do we love our lives most of the time oblivious to reality and this virus is a biggie waking us up to the fact that we're all living in the same world now what happens in one country affects what happens in another country now we're aware of that but that's true all the time so that is also so perhaps we can come out of this with more awareness of that generally not just that these sudden catastrophes yeah that's the first point the second point is that all around the world there are many areas where there's illnesses that are rampant because of poverty because of lack of health services and because lack of proper food and so on that claim many many many lives it's just that here in the rest of our shielded from that so we don't have to make ourselves aware and then there's the third level and which is to me were beginning to the realms of evil there are places in the world where illness is imposed because of war and intervention and occupation and and in exploitation I'm thinking of a place like Gaza which I've visited and I release the political statement here except to say that the immense small area there's all those hundreds of tons of people cramped together and because of the political situation and and when the blockade which is largely supported by the West only 5% of the water is portable could we at least in these times lift those sanctions on those countries could be at least in these times not lift the sanctions on Iran which is make it makes it hard for them to important medical equipment yeah in other words could we be just completed at least you know they I think the UN some you are and maybe did you go to the Director General you I know at the Secretary General called for an international ceasefire in areas of conflict they just took as far as over let's just much let's shoot each other well what if we called an international moratorium on anything that makes people suffer that we're doing that makes other people suffer so so what if just you know we can go back to your politics later if you want to but just now could we get come together as a human race and and and and and and just be kind so yeah these are big questions and I think that the virus is compelling us to ask these questions and and to remember these questions when the virus is gone that's the key isn't it let's remember this when we're through the acute phase of this and one thing I'm doing myself and I'm asking a lot of people to do you're asking me for advices just write down a few of your thoughts everyday like little things that you're now appreciative often grateful for I did a post yesterday on my social media channels about five things that came at the top of my head that I just may be taken for granted in the past but really really value now you know go to a cafe to meet up with a friends but nothing I can't do I'm like oh God will that be amazing or I do something called parkour on Saturdays where you congregate in your local community and hundreds if you run together think wow I caught just the ability to go and do that will be phenomenal my my elderly mother lives nearby she's not to be selfish they sing for 12 weeks so just to give my Simpson on your mum a hug like the small things that were available to me three weeks ago that I probably took for granted and I think if we make a like a journal every day and write these things down when this is all gone when it's all over we can look back in reflects and go you know what is it maybe that was something we should all try to do is write our own journal throughout this it's a way of sitting with our self understanding our and also it's a way of not forgetting when it's all over was this samuel peeps they wrote the Journal of the plague years I think so well I think it was like why don't we all keep a journal of the plague days you know or maybe play weeks or for god forbid plague months although it looks like it yeah that's a great yeah I you know someone who's listening this a few people think yeah that might be a good idea City W mentions like let's be kind sir to one other let's at least now let's lift sanctions and just do the right thing and one thing that I've always been well I've always talked about it is something that I think is the most important skill for any human being but also certainly any health care professional is compassion is ability to connect and really non-judgmentally look at that person in front of you and it's really interesting to observe what's happening at the moment when it comes to compassion so you can you know there's people out there who yeah let's say people who are not practicing social distancing who are you know refusing to follow what the government have asked people to do and are getting together and congregating with their friends or people who are perceived to be panic buying and therefore the supermarket shelves are now empty it's really interesting that we can be quite judgmental about those other people who are behaving in that way and it's something I've mentioned recently is that you know I think about I've thought about panic buying a lot recently in this idea that our people really panic buying I'm sure some people are but most people are probably just buying a little bit more than they would have done in the past and therefore when they go to the Shelf the shelves fall and the first person buys a little bit more the second base advise a little bit more then at some point there's gonna be someone who empties that shelf but all they were doing was buying a little bit more than they would normally do and then someone will post a photo of that on social media and go go who are these people who are panic buying this should be ashamed of themselves and I'm thinking I'm not criticizing people saying that I'm just observing that you know this situation I think has brought out the best in humanity but also sort of it's also exposing the worst as well as any stress test would do and it's I'm interested in your observations on the judgment that we can have on other people particularly at times like this well it's great to speak with you because every time you speak my mind just starts generating but thought bubbles start arising under the surface of my mind the first thing the here in Vancouver there was a couple who ground cleaning out all the shelves of the majors of the stores of cleaning of cleaning fluid or cleaning wipes then they sell them at a profit you know anything who would do that no but the stewardess to be of asking these two ways of asking we would do that when the school would do that as the judgment or curiously over who actually would do that yeah and how unsecured there must actually feel in the world and and how much they there must be cut off from their own communal sense of humanity so what happened to them these people that congregate and they ignore the recommendations where did they learn to distrust Authority so much usually that's a that can be a trauma response as well like when when when early is it the whole lot of ways to respond to trauma but one way to respond is I'm never going to trust Authority again I just can do whatever I want yeah because the authority that I did trust him when I was an infant really let me down yeah so if it's over so even we can look at these people compassionately as well and it isn't it came up for me is that 1016 this such thing is healthy shame so in reading my new book I'll be looking at Aboriginal societies and then in in what we call Sokka primitive societies which is how we actually involved in small band together and we lived that way for millions of hundreds and thousands of years that was our evolutionary niche when you look at them those societies that still carry those vestiges or those ways of life today to fewer and fewer individual accumulation is seen as a weakness is some kind of an illness and if somebody you know they go hunting and some young guy shoots his does his first kill you know everybody criticizes them and they ritually will make small of it why so they don't want anybody to get a big head what they want to see okay you doing this to the community you know it's not malicious it but they do but it's not about individual achievement and then an individual accumulation that wealth for them actually lies in commonality so that in a lot of these cultures including here in the west coast of Canada big celebrations would involve people giving away their wealth to others yeah and real wealth was in how other people regarded you and how you connected with them so this crisis again shows how far we've gone away from our roots yeah and and and when you think of yourself or end of ourselves when do we feel best when we have gathers something to ourselves on one with given it you know and most people will say I feel so much better about myself so much more peace so much more joy when I'm doing for when I'm giving not compulsively but out of free choice but that goes on to rate to the way we programmed in a society so again is this go back to our theme of learning there's this this this viral crisis is really maybe teaching us something about our true human nature yeah a you and your wife dealing with this in different ways well we do go for work every day yeah I'm just gonna pour in the fresh air I'm spending much of my time at my computer writing my book my wife's an artist so she draws a lot she paints she's not painting she's drawing a lot these days but she's also doing Chris argh our crossword puzzles and she just said a great way to just relax I can see that she's doing what she needs to but but if you asking me are we dealing with an emotionally differently and I guess let me just clarify the point of my question wasn't really to enquire about you and her individually it was also more really the broader question do you feel and do you see that men and women of course that's gonna be huge individual differences within that but broadly speaking can we say that men and women tend to deal with these things in different ways obvious and broad spray strokes that we can we can explain that with mm-hmm well there's a lot of work that's been done on a different emotional styles of emotional coping styles of men women and women tend to be more in touch with their emotions in general they can to come more from the right side of the brain which is more holistic and and and and and inclusive whereas men tend to move towards the left side which is more this is this is not exclusive and it's not a gender base but in general more going to explanations and intellectual formulations and so on as to Hadas showing up right now in the current viral situation die be an interesting study you want it to look back later on and say waha did men and women differentially if there was a differential how do they differentiate deal with what's going on I don't know that I have an answer the right way now like another thing that would be really interesting to look at at some point in the future when the dust has settled is you know in its that is that it's that sort of seesaw that I was mentioning to you before this idea that okay all these measures that have been taken these kind of frankly never been seen before measures by countries all around the world are to limit the spread of the virus so we're asking people to isolate well certainly physically isolate themselves from each other not go about their everyday lives not congregate with other human beings as social beings you know in the UK at the moment we've been told we can go outside once a day to take exercise in the form of a walk cycle or run and we can also go to the shops once a week but we're being encouraged to I mean this is pretty restrictive compared to what normal life used to feel like but what I'm interested in is are we going to look back and oh it will be interesting to look back at some point in the future for all the lives we may hopefully save from getting you know severely affected by the virus they're needing intensive care and all this kind of stuff on the flip side what sort of damage are we potentially gonna do to society with this isolation with this anxiety because I feel that our so hope I'm wrong on this but I I imagined that we may well see in a few months you know a litany of mental health issues and anxiety and depression and all kinds of things on the back of this and then it's a whole acute versus chronic piece that we're not taking these chronic things like air pollution and mental health and all these things which kill millions of people each year seriously but we are with the virus and I think that's a really interesting thought experiment there is that you know will it have been worth it I don't mean to sound you know a very conscious don't mean to sound as though I I think we should be taking the measures to protect life right some not saying we shouldn't be but will we look back and go what you know was that an unexpected consequence of doing that well I've had the same question come up in my mind a CLE a quick story just before you called me and a friend of mine called me another retired physician she she was on her bicycle and she delivers was called wheels on meals meals on wheels so they take food too it's a program in an encoder they take food to shut-ins and old people and so on and my friend Elaine who was delivering the food there's an elderly hunger a lady who was among her clients and they don't share language to role the woman does not speak English at all any Lane speaks no Hungarian and she called me just now just before you called me because the woman wants her to come closer like she usually does but iliyan won't oh okay but because of the language barrier couldn't explain why I can't come close for you and who is getting more and more upset so she called me and said would you talk to her and Hungarian and explain and and I did and this woman had never heard of the of the pandemic because she speaks no English and so the media elderly woman the the English language media which is what happens here means nothing today she was unaware and so imagine the the bewilderment there also in the world changes and even this person who brings your food won't come near her you know so that's it's hitting a lot of people now the question that you're asking I think we took close food right now but it's too pretty yeah it's occurred to me as well at one point do we decide that the social disruption an economic disruption and the anxiety and is more than we can bear and that how do you make the decision as to what's more important saving lives now or a functioning society in a long-term and I I even hesitate there is the question Pacific just like you I'm cautious not to undermine any and anybody's commitment to participate fully in exact and to follow the directions and advice of the authorities I think this is a time where we just have to really do that yeah so do I have another one you know just reoccur what you just said it was really just a thoughts experiments rather than we should do things differently exactly you know I've heard the things thought and I think there'll be one of those long-term questions that once we're looking back in retrospect we'll be able to engage with there may be learned from yeah well I'm certainly an optimist in the sense that I think I really hope that we have been given such a jolt and with so many this sorta appreciate the little things in life that frankly most of us if not all of us certainly many of us took for granted in the past we could hold on to that there could be something really beautiful on the other side of this potentially for society I certainly hope that's gonna happen I I'm an optimist I always have been are you an optimist well human beings have diminished capacity for transformation and depth and spiritual and emotional growth they also have tremendous capacity for denial and forgetting and and and distracting and and going back to business as usual I don't know how it's gonna play out I think it'll play out in both ways through a society it's only an individual level I think an individual level there'll be a lot of people that were learnt a lot of valuable lessons here what's important and the social level I don't know in fact I've I'm rather pessimistic at least in a short term look in Britain if I remember correctly there's one study that I read that I collected for my new book sunlight 10,000 people have died because of austerity in Britain would that be a startling statistic to you is that something that should submit your rhiness I said I've come across very similar statistics to that I must say I haven't dug deep into them so I I don't know what that is base by Sir we have heard that for sure yeah so that's one one piece of information that's resting on my computer somewhere but we seem quite content to allow that yeah and and to and and and and to persist in it and that's a lot of people dying a lot more people of then I will die in Britain of this particular disease so will this teach us when other catastrophes have not I don't know and and that that be that comes to all social issues over its you know there's a social structure and is it there's a power to structure that is invested in being things and things being the way they have been yeah I don't know that that's going to change and the question is for people demand a change or we're going to just be so grateful and happy and joyful to go back to our lives that will forget about these larger questions I I rather think in a short term that's more likely yeah I think it's a great point and you know we've we've got things like Bill Gates his TED talk from 2015 where he's he's sort of said this was going to happen other people have so have done that as someone called Debbie Sreedhar I'm hopefully talking's he's seeing his professor Global Health at University of Edinburgh he's well worth following for people on Twitter at the moment says of her thoughts on the pandemic and how we're dealing with it it's witty with the interesting that a lot of people had been predicting this yet a lot of us a lot of certainly the UK didn't spend the millions probably the billions that were going to be necessary to be adequately equipped to deal with it whereas now we're gonna have to spend trillions on the economic implications of it so even with that knowledge we weren't prepared to spend it's like that prevention versus cure piece right we knew well the scientists knew but we still didn't do anything about it and now we're going to be paying way way more on the backend trying to fix something that potentially could have been sorted at the front end and the other yes and there's a big big question that brings a big question that brings up is is there something about our way of life and they relate to nature and the earth that somehow potentially is this kind of a crisis and I've already seen those arguments being made or versions being raised that's another huge inquiry I think that would need to be held but whatever result but I think we need to look at it and so the real question again is are we gonna remember the big questions when this is over yeah and and and are we going to be committed to delving into those questions and the depth that they they require and deserve yeah or or will we get naturally enough perhaps caught up in trying to catch up to what we've lost economically and in other ways yeah we got boy it's for me it's always a pleasure to talk to you and just the opportunity to sit with you and and just have a conversation is something I find incredibly stimulating and incredibly inspiring I've said on many times I think your voice is one of the most important voices globally right now in terms of health in terms of compassion in terms of addiction and I'm really excited that you're wanting a new book when is the new book coming out do we know yet or is it still too early to say it's meant to come out next year I believe I have to confess I've been struggling with it doesn't matter you mentioned internal family systems I actually called addiction words and had a conversation with them because they needed some help cuz I part of me was really just ready to to be in panic about did I at this time bite off more than I can chew this book writing is it more than I can actually fulfill on and I find it a helpful conversation to get in touch with that panicky little inadequate part of mine you know so I think we all need help at this time you know internet maybe a final message I think you know I would agree on and by the way it's also wonderful to speak with you I just really enjoy our conversation I just like the quality of connection that that experience we're not talking with you but but maybe one lesson we can all learn is let's just be vulnerable people and ask for help when we need it yeah I think that's a wonderful place to finish this I really hope people found our sort of intellectual meanderings sort of going from one place to another we you know again no preparation of us more trying to catch up and see what we can what we can share about what is currently going on and I think you know accept that it's okay to feel the pressure and be vulnerable and need help that's quite a nice message to people I think and I really want to just highlight what you said early just you know try not to destroy yourself sit with what sit with your feelings take the opportunity you'll get what good luck with book writing good luck with your walks around where you live and very much hope you're in London for part of the book tour when it does come out which I'm sure it will do and I look forward to having a face-to-face conversation next time so take care thank you thank you America [Music] you you

Channel: Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Views: 532,428

Rating: 4.852695 out of 5

Keywords: NHS, GP, Four Pillar Plan, lifestyle medicine, the stress solution, feel better in 5, feel better live more, fblm, health, paleo, wellness, drchatterjee, rangan chatterjee, how to make disease disappear, low carb, vegan, keto, podcast, apple podcast, obesity, type 2 diabetes, joe rogan, sleep, jay shetty, health advice, richroll, therichrollpodcast, coronavirus, covid-19, addiction, gabor mate, dr mate, dr gabor mate, stress, depression, loneliness, connection, compassion

Id: P0-eNyOjtf0

Length: 70min 59sec (4259 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 08 2020