Conversion Consequences with Frank Beckwith

[Applause] and welcome to another episode of Hank unplug this is well it is the podcast not the broadcast it is what takes me out of the studio and right into this study this is not as didactic I suppose leaning forward as it is conversational and I'm really excited about podcasting I didn't even know what podcasting was a couple of months ago I certainly know what it is today the first podcast I did with fredericka Matthews grain reached number six in its space I mean I was absolutely amazed first out of the box started in a thousands of course and got all the way to number six and then I did a podcast with rod grayer his book the Benedict option one of the most talked about books in the Christian world so that's another one of these really exciting podcast but today I have a guy I want you to meet someone that many people in the intellectual community are very familiar with and I suppose people around the world are familiar with him in general but they're probably a few people listening in like flies on the wall who don't know who Francis Beckwith is and if you're one of those people I want to introduce him as a philosopher who publishes and teaches in the area of politics jurisprudence religion and ethics he's a professor of philosophy in church state studies and he's the co-director of a program and philosophical studies of religion in the Institute for studies of religion at Baylor University by the way one of my kids went to Baylor University mother you're listening in but know anything about me now I have twelve kids a lot of them in university at the same time but one of them was a student of philosophy at Baylor University my namesake here franca course is a prolific author and most recently he wrote a book called taking rights seriously law politics and the reasonableness of faith this was a Cambridge University Press imprint and I think it won the American Academy of religions 2016 Book Award for Excellence in the study of religion in the category of constructive reflective studies if that's not enough for you way back in 1993 and this was the occasion for me to really get to know Frank Beckwith he wrote a book called politically correct death answering the arguments for abortion rights and I remember back in those years I would go through that book and then through it again and then through it again i dog-eared that book I quoted from that book that book was transformational because in that book I started understanding how significant the life issue really is francis schaeffer once said that this would be the watershed issue of our epoch of time and he was certainly right about that I'm talking to Frank as well because both of us made some significant changes in our lives but we are both deeply committed to the concept of mere christianity Frank I am so delighted to catch up with you it's been a long time we haven't talked got a letter from you when I converted orthodoxy and it was very very calming to me you said I've been through this if you want to talk let's have a conversation well it's great to be on Hank I I can testify that you I remember when you interviewed me for politically correct death and we were in the studio together and I couldn't believe the color coordination that was in the text from notes you had taken and things you wanted to memorize so I can testify you did you you know if it were a record album we could say you bled it white [Laughter] exactly I mean I loved that book and and of course you've written many books on the life issue I mean this is one of the issues that is a passion for you maybe we should start out by talking about the rudimentary issue here we live in an age of technology when you wrote that book we didn't have the kind of technology that we have today I mean people can now examine the evidence and know that a preborn child can actually see the face of a mother and have the cognitive awareness of whether that face is upside down her right side up so we have great strides and technology but the abortion issue isn't going away yeah it to me it's really the watershed issue of our age I mean there are many other issues that I think one can link to the abortion issue because they all deal with to a certain extent the question of who and what we are and whether we can know it and the abortion issue raises even a deeper question and that is what sort of obligations that we do we have to those that are more vulnerable than us that we bring into existence I mean there's something godlike in the fact that human beings can actually with God participate in bringing other human beings into existence and the idea that we can simply destroy those human beings as a matter of will without any justification is abhorrent and it was the that actually that issue really profoundly affected my own sort of development as a Christian in the early 1980s I was a consider myself moderately pro-choice around 1984 so when I was in graduate school and one of my Soho graduate students who believe it or not was an atheist shot down my pro-choice arguments and I and that really it surprised me how badly I I was reasoning and the other thing that that was ironic about it it was an unbeliever that actually was the one that helped change my mind but as I began thinking more deeply about the issue I began to see how it is connected to not only you know a sort of obligation we have just to not harm others but the obligation we have for those that we we actually are responsible for bringing into existence and what that tells us about just ethics in general many of the ways in which people reason about this issue always emphasize the the the struggle and the challenges that a pregnant woman may have but if you think about it the idea that our ethics should be driven solely by what we perceive as consequences for ourselves is I think ultimately undermining the kind of obligations that do require us to in fact go move above and beyond what our desires are I mean this is what it mean what it means to be human you know I think about the experiences I've had Frank you know as you know I have 12 children and watching children being birthed is one of the greatest wonders imaginable to see one human being come out of another human being is truly a miracle I always watched it without any sense of the blood or the the gore that some people get turned off by it was always a beautiful mystery that was unfolding before my eyes and you know the more you see bursts take place the more you know about what happens before a baby is born the more passion you have about subjects like this yeah and then the today you mentioned earlier the technology when we were able to appear into the room and and see things that even people 2530 years ago would have never thought imaginable and and yet the idea that abortion is permissible still persists and I think it has a lot to do with what people how people think of their own nature as human persons usually we when we think about we think about human beings we think about usually ordinary adult human beings and those are individuals that have consciousness they're able to reflect on life and a lot of people some people some philosophers will say well the unborn aren't like that so therefore they're not truly persons and I think it's said it's a mistaken view of what we are we're not at any one point of our existence wholly or completely perfected I mean the eye and so if you think about the human being not as at any one point being complete you can see that what the unborn human being is is just simply one of us at an earlier stage of development and that the maturation of that being is in fact a movement towards its perfection but it still is what it is it doesn't become anything different it's just simply in a way it's a kind of unfolding right of the majesty of the image of God that is that that we reflect and yet you know it still persists the good thing is that I think that in terms of the general culture people are much more inclined to the pro-life position and they were maybe 25 30 years ago and I think the the technology the technological advances I think have made and made that possible what about the anthropological problems that persist though I mean if you if you look today at things that concern you like gender fluidity or same-sex sexuality all of these things are part and parcel of a misunderstanding or a Mis appreciation of the a muggle day the image of God in humanity and how we were created to be by an infinite ineffable God who is knowable through his Grace's I think I I think you're you're right I mean it's of the same kind of kind of thinking and let me explain what I mean by that we people today have a kind of a dualist view of the human person now I want to be careful here because as a Christian as Christians we believe that been effect we have souls and those souls can exist apart from our body so I do believe that as Christians we accept a kind of dualism in the sense that we believe that there's an immaterial aspect of our nature that does survive death however another important aspect of the Christian worldview is that we're going to be resurrected why because we are embodied Souls by Nature we're not simply souls that happen to be tagged onto a body well what does it have to do with abortion and gender issues well insofar as those that want to sort of separate the intellectual part of the person from the physical part of the person can actually say things like well you like a woman trapped in a man's body the assumption is that there is a a physical kind of that the human body is a kind of instrument of the mind and it's not the real self but the real self is purely the psychological and tie that to the abortion issue because the early fetus and embryo is it psychologically mature the assumption is it's not truly a person so you have a very similar reasoning there and I think the thing that that has to be adding argue for is that is that human beings are not simply you know our psychological cells that is certainly an important aspect of us it's about it's the way we exercise our will it's the way which we think but if we're altom utley though embody think about it even when we think we have to actually perceive the world that's out there we are beings that eat and drink and feel and love with our bodies this is what we are and so this is why as Christians we we have to I think remember what what the Scriptures teach and then what the tradition teaches namely that we are we're not simply this kind of Cartesian view of a thinking thing that happens to be attached to some bit of matter that we are in sold and that that what we are as human beings is is something that is complex but it also reflects the way in which God has made us and he made us not simply as as Minds attached to bodies but in fact embodied souls I want to go back a lot of years in time with you right now Frank when I hear you talk I can almost hear Bob and Gretchen passing Tino they had a great impact on your life just as they had a great impact on my life I remember when I became president the Christian Research Institute I didn't have the acumen that I needed but there was a man and woman in the background solely hidden from view to the largest degree mentoring me slowly teaching me and and that was something that absolutely radically changed the trajectory of my life and ministry and I think we have that in common yeah I met I met Bob and Gretchen gosh 26 years ago this past April and for those who have never met the past doing a lot of people haven't because as you said they were sort of behind the scenes I've never forget the time the first time I went there to their home which was this building adjacent to a Lutheran Church in Khost in Newport Costa Mesa area and it was they had that you've been there the huge library of books I remember I walked and and I knocked on the door and Gretchen answered with this big smile on her face and she dressed like a hippie right out of central casting hood and she gave me a big hug and told Bob Frank Beckwith is here and proceeded to yell it to her son Paul to clean up and get ready for dinner and and then I just remember walking in and seeing the rows of overstuffed bookshelves and I was there I think till 2:00 a.m. arguing with Bob Cratchit and sometimes agreeing with them about a variety of theological issues the thing that I think really stood out about them was you never got the impression even if you disagreed with them that that made any difference there's they sort of enjoyed the whole aspect of learning together the character but I think of Bob Fosse no I think of Joe Pesci character and my cousin Vinnie you know Nicki so if you could imagine so that was was so you know is for those in out there listening this is the way it was we were they were they were the brightest people I knew and they had at that time no other than undergraduate education everything that they were self-taught but they were so well read so well informed and because they were so well written and so well informed there was a kind of built-in humility to the way in which they conducted their lives even when they felt very strongly about something they knew enough that they realized that even people who they thought were wrong may have a point and so there was a there was a wonderful aspect of visiting them we when my wife and I lived in Southern California we we we spent many Sunday afternoons at their home and it was a place it was almost like gosh like Boys Town people were visiting there all day long and Gretchen was cooking and it was it was wonderful and he had of the dogs and you know the toughest thing for me was getting out of there I mean I I remember long hours here these conversations they go on and on and on and I'm they're very stimulating but I'd look at my my watch and think I've got something I do early in the morning and it's one o'clock I get to get out of here and so you try to make your exit but passing tea no he would walk you to the car and then he'd be talking to you the car window still rolled up he's still talking to you we don't want to be rude so you roll down the car window and he's talking to you then you started leaving you start driving away very very slowly and Bob is keeping up with you as you're driving away it was hilarious but this was I mean this is a real expression from my perspective of authentic Christianity because they had a passion for apologetics they had a passion for always being ready to give an answer to anyone and and and so they saw people who had platforms people like you people like me and many many others I mean the the tribe can be multiplied many times up but they saw people that had platforms and they knew that by investing in those people they were laying up for themselves treasures in heaven where moth and rust do not corrupt and where thieves do not break in and steal yeah they were amazing I I think about the times and I'm sure you've had this too I I would call up Gretchen for and I'd say you know I have a question about something I want to get your opinion and then I hear her after about 10 minutes she goes Bob get on the other line and Bob would get on the other line and he and he would once in a while interrupt and that that Bob like voice even let me say that a talk like this he would and and Gretchen would say be quiet Frank speaking and it was just we'd be on the phone for sometimes two or three hours but yeah and and and I would sometimes get calls from Bob at all hours of the night you know just because I had this idea one of the it's amazing they were they were an amazing couple and I miss them dearly you know what's cool about all of this is that they were lifelong learners and I think that is one of the values they instilled in me obviously what I do is President the Christian Research Institute and host of a daily Bible answer and broadcast is I have to be a lifelong learner can every static and they instilled that value in me continuously wanting to learn to become a sharper tool in the hands of the Holy Spirit and I suppose if there's a message that we want to get out to people listening in to this conversation it is be a lifelong learner I bring this up Frank I suppose because this in some way has to do with my conversion to orthodoxy in your return to Catholicism and I suppose maybe as prelude to that we need to talk about what mere christianity is because one of the interesting things that happened when I converted to orthodoxy after attending an Orthodox Church for almost three years was that I immediately lost a lot of listenership a reason being I lost between a hundred and hundred fifty radio stations almost immediately of course other doors have opened up and so the ministry continues on as before but a letter from NRB television president Troy Miller for example said dear Hank it has been brought to her attention through a number of our viewers external media and your program that you have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy it has affected your public ministry and negatively affected our viewership so as a result of my conversion there was a well there was a slamming of doors all over the world and I think that if you are a lifelong learner oftentimes you are not willing to stay Pat and I say that maybe even in light of the fact that Gretchen passing tino died in 2014 I spoke at her funeral and Bob died before that you recognize the brevity of life and so ultimately what you do is for an audience of one yeah yeah the whole idea of lifelong learning it's something that you know that's a being around them and seeing the way in which they just consumed so much literature but the thing about it though is that they didn't read and they didn't learn just to argue for their own positions I mean that's certainly not wrong to do that you want to learn how to defend your faith but they also look they also read in order for their own sort of intellectual and spiritual development wherever that may lead in fact I could I guess I can share this now when soon after I returned to the Catholic Church Gretchen sent me an email and uh and I I was I was blown away by it because I you know we had never talked about we had never talked about Catholicism or anything of that sort but they she told me that her and Bob frequently would would would talk to they talked to each other about about me and my wife and and one of the things that that that Bob apparently said to Gretchen was I wonder how long it's going to take for Frank to become Catholic and this in fact he this is what he said this is what she said this is the email many years ago Bob and I thought you would really enjoy the worship experience of Catholicism and we were encouraged when you were attending that Anglican Church in Newport Pete Beach I know he's pleased for you as well of course he had since passed his passed away when she wrote that but yeah the thing that the the passin Tina is instilled in me is the same same as your experience and as I've gotten older I realized how much I don't know still you know I was telling a couple of students several months ago I wish I was I wish I was sure of myself now as I was when I was 35 i think as you as a lifelong learner you begin to realize that you know that you there's a limit you can only read and do so much and you have to do your best and pray and and but you can't you know the there's a wide world out there of knowledge and and yet you can't know it all what does that quote the the larger the island of knowledge the greater the shoreline of wonder or the longer the shoreline of wonder it's exactly what you just said Frank I mean the more you know the more you realize how who you know in the scope of what could be known and I think to some degree that that puts a big precedent for all of us or at least should in my estimation on the historicity of the church we ought to take seriously the communal or the collective memory of the church I mean not just as we talk about church fathers but the grannies that passed on information to granny's to grant that has some significance if you have for example of you as Catholics do and as Orthodox do in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and that view goes on through Luther it seems to me you have to take that seriously I think you do I think the the other aspect of that historical continuity and this is something as a Christian public intellectual I think I feel liberated when when I became Catholic in this sense I no longer felt that I had to that that that I had to always have the meter running and what I mean by that is that I I'm part of a grand tradition and that if I died tomorrow the church would go on well without me but when I was a leader in the evangelical world I kind of felt I was really important and I don't feel as important now and it's great because I'm not part of it's just not me it's an a few people it's I'm part of something that's bigger than myself and it's a lot larger in G K Chesterton said it's a lot larger when you're it's a lot bigger when you're inside than when you're looking from the outside in so yeah being part of that kind of is liberating that doesn't mean you don't care about defending the faith or making a case for Christianity but it's but that's not the entirety of your life it's it's you have to you're permitted to you know participate in a larger life of the church without always worrying about you know the next article that's going to come out so at least for me I mean everyone's different but my own experience I found it liberating that that it that there isn't that sort of pressure I remember when I was 14 years old and you made me think of this as you're talking I was but we had emigrated to the United States first to Canada United States from Holland and my parents and my sister and my and myself at that time we're going back to to Holland for a trip and we stopped in London now I'll never forget is a 14 year old boy standing in st. Paul's Cathedral and thinking about the immensity of church history I mean I was looking up at a dome that I could barely see it was so far away it was so majestic it was so grand I was thinking about the relics that are built into the altars and the the ossuaries and the tombs and when you're in a church like that you get a sense of history and I think what you were communicating our smallness in perspective of the grand panoply of history that's right you know and it makes it makes one less concerned about the present and I don't I want to make sure this is that I'm it doesn't come across as we shouldn't care about the president obviously should we have a many obligations as Christians to advance the common good and so forth what I'm saying is that when we look about when we look at what's happening in the world or things that may be happening in our respective churches that we don't like there's a much better historical perspective that we get when we see ourselves as just one part of a long narrative that's going to have a future and it's already has had a past rather than seeing just that we have to reinvent the wheel every generation uh III think you know that that puts a different perspective on the calamities of our age again it doesn't I don't want to diminish the importance of of an active Christianity in the present I certainly have done a lot of that myself but what I'm suggesting is that it puts a perspective historically on our present age that um you know we don't know what's going to be the world's going to be like a hundred years from now and think of so many of the things that are occurring today we mentioned abortion already and transgender theory those those sorts of beliefs that are in the public square didn't arise out of nothing they arose from Kuster of ideas that were probably hundreds of years old and now we're seeing them come to fruition we don't know what role we're playing as Christians in terms of advancing the faith that may we may be planting seeds at a hundred years from now flourish in a way that is glorious and something that we would never have anticipated but we don't know and so we I think being in that looking at the history of the church in that way you know you you there's less of what is the right term you we're less upset about the present I want to talk for just a few more months about what many evangelicals think of when they think of the Church of Rome I remember many times while chuck Colson was alive and he was working on ect with Richard John Newhouse and he would call me sometimes in the weekend and he had really stepped in it and the evangelicals were very very upset because he wanted to work with Catholics on common cause issues and this became a great stir and so he'd called me and we kind of talked it out of course would Chuck he was a little different he he always called me Frank and then he'd ask me a question answered the question he'd ask me another question answered the question he hasn't one more question answered the question that would go on for a while and many thank me for really clearing up his mind Chuck whether he was a hood but he was a you know he's a true Christian statesman but yeah you know it gave me a sense of some of the vitriol that can come out when you mention Roman Catholicism in fact I want to read you something and have you comment this is something that I wrote in my book the apocalypse code this was wild Tim LaHaye was alive he of course had indicated that he studied Biblical prophecy for more than 50 years and as such he was absolutely certain that the mother of prostitutes and the abominations of the earth covered with blasphemous names is none other than the Roman Catholic Church of the 21st century the Church of Rome he said is doctrinally a mixture of Babylonian paganism and Christianity a far cry from the faith once for all entrusted to the Saints and they went on to incriminate the Roman Catholic Church in the most pejorative terms imaginable pseudo Christian false religion mother of idolatry Nimrod and in his view Rome is not the only form of Babylonian Mista but merely the one that has infiltrated Christianity and after the rapture their leaders the leaders that remain will bring all the babylonian based religions together with one global idolatrous religion now when you read that in popular literature and i I've heard Tim I say this when he was alive and I've heard many other evangelicals quote things that are very similar about Roman Catholicism one like Frank Beckwith who returns to Roman Catholicism you were the president of ETS and you could imagine the thoughts in the minds of many people that are listening to this kind of rhetoric oh my goodness it is happening before our very eyes yeah III yeah I got a lot of emails about that affect my wife gosh she got I don't know how this person got my wife's email but wrote my wife and said that you and your husband have joined the of Babylon and I I'm I had to tell my my wife was so upset and I and I said don't respond and so she did it but yeah I mean I think I think you know Tim LaHaye in many ways was a good guy I you know I think he I admired his courage for his stance on a lot of the cultural issues but like many people in Evin Jellicle ISM he was deeply influenced by a book that had come out in I think the 1960s or 70s they may be older but that's when I bought it it was called Babylon mystery religion yeah it was and it became a kind of bestseller in the evangelical world and the thesis was is that Catholicism Roman Catholicism is a sort of combination of Christianity and the appropriation of Babylonian religious practices and the book is I mean it's historically awful I think it's you know it's not it's not accurate the practices that are singled out are actually practices that are found in Eastern Orthodoxy the the view of the Eucharist to the understanding of of liturgy and and so forth and what what the what the author of the book I think doesn't understand is that these practices are very deep in Christian history as it forget his name author Robert Wilkins aubert Robert Wilkin at university of virginia published a book several years ago about the early christian church and the thinness is actually something that really influenced my return to catholicism the thing that will can argue is in the book is that if you go back to the very earliest liturgies that we have records of in the 2nd 2nd century you have things like prayers to the saints and you know a practice of the eucharist that clearly implies a kind of Eucharistic realism and this is found not only in the west but also in the eastern churches as well and so yeah I mean I think you have folks like LaHaye who are I think well-meaning Christians trying to persuade people to come to Christ but I think at the end of the day they just didn't they don't have a very good sense of Christian history and they just believed these books you know I like about the way you answered that question and the way your dialogue and with me on that particular issue is I don't hear the vitriol in return it's not as though well this guy is the worst person that ever walked the face of the earth because he said that particular thing about the Roman Catholic Church instead what you're doing is you're highlighting the positive aspects of his life and the contribution that he made while he was still living and I think there's some degree all of that is very very necessary in answer to the Lord's high priestly prayer that we all may be as one not one in the sense of compromising what CS Lewis called your Christianity or an essentials unity non essentials Liberty all things charity but one standing shoulder to shoulder in the battle for life and truth not finding ways to bifurcate or try for cake but rather finding ways by which we can find commonality so that together we can have an impact particularly in this epic of time when unity among Christians is desperately needed that's right i thing that in fact the thing that that that really and I think having been on both sides has been really helpful to me that is as somebody that has written things critical of other faiths at both as an evangelical and a Catholic and and getting to know people on us in on both sides and I think also just the maturity that comes with age the thing that you begin to realize is that in some ways you you will you kind of admire people that sort of stand up for their beliefs so Tim LaHaye wrote those things and they're kind of they're kind of nasty to be sure but in a way I kind of would rather live in a world where people actually take theology seriously and they're and they're able to make these distinctions so LaHaye I mean for all the rhetoric against Catholicism that you that you read from that work he worked closely with Catholics in Washington DC for the cause of the pro-life position so you know I think the fact that that people take theology seriously I think it's a good thing and that and in fact people are complicated they can exhibit certain virtues in terms of the way in which they conduct their lives but they may not actually exhibit intellectual virtues in some areas this is just the way that we are is as human being so but I do think you're right I mean we have to learn how to work together especially since we share so much in terms of of our moral beliefs our views about the family our views about the relationship between the church and in the wider culture these are things that that that Christians virtually all share and and if we don't you know if we don't stand together they'll hang go separately right yeah one of the things though that a lot of evangelicals will tell you the deal-breaker is and that's both for you and me is that we both bought into systems of belief that are crass systems of work righteousness and therefore we're giving up an essential to historic Christians I think that through with me yeah I think one of the one of the misunderstandings I think that a lot of Protestants have about Catholic and Orthodox views of grace is that they have a because maybe they decide the best way to explain it but they have a kind of zero-sum game view of how human beings and God work together for our own sanctification so for them it's like it's either grace or me but the Catholic and correct me if I don't want to misrepresent the Orthodox view but it's very similar in this sense that that grace plays a role in healing the soul which has a particular name that the soul has a will and so when we exercise our will as a consequence of God's grace working through us in a mysterious way it's us acting but God gets all the credit and because God because God is all-powerful and he's also not a thing in the universe in the sense that you know it's either God acting or us acting it's it's a cooperation but yet it's still him and and the example I've used with some of my evangelical friends is this I've said now you guys believe as we believe because Catholics believe is that the Bible is God's Word yes but you also believe Paul wrote Romans how can you say Paul wrote Romans and yet it's it's word okay and I said now you understand that what you're saying is that that Paul wrote Romans and yet is a hundred percent God's word if you can understand that then you can understand that the traditional view of the ratio between grace and works in the pre-reformation Christian tradition it isn't that we're doing things to please God we are in fact accepting the grace so that we can we can in fact act in charity for the sake of reflecting His grace and for our own transformation and it is mysterious and but that's okay in fact I as I've said to a couple of my a couple of my grad students several months ago I I don't I don't want to believe in a god I can understand yeah I know there's something about trying to figure everything out and I think again there's nothing wrong with that in principle but but I do think that that that we have to allow for the possibility that we just can't figure everything out and we just have to accept that this is what we've been taught and and that's the role that God's grace plays in our lives yeah that's what recalls this Lewis saying that the simplest religions are the made-up religions and from a personal standpoint Frank I mean that was one of the great attractions for me with respect to whether doxy you know a recognition that I can live in the land of antenna me that I that I can accept things that are beyond my Ken which is to say that I can apprehend things like the Trinity yeah I can apprehend the incarnation of Jesus Christ I can apprehend the Eucharist but I can't comprehend any of them they're beyond my ability to comprehend and I think this is one of the great things made a point that we ought to make as we're doing this podcast is that God is ineffable he is unknowable in his essence he's obviously knowable in his Grace's and what I think is so important is that without the church you can't live out the Christian life because it is within the context of the church that you partake of the graces of God whereby you are going through a process of theosis and this whole idea of deification and by the way I just read a compilation of essays it was written all written by Catholics on theosis that I thought was the most brilliant of anything that I had read on the subject but anyway without getting into the weeds here I mean the thing that I that I love about orthodoxy and that I value within Roman Catholicism is maybe what was called the mysterium tremendum at the schemings the mystery that causes us to tremble and yet attracts us I mean how can we possibly explain how Christ can be one person with two natures and likewise how can we really understand how Christ can really be present in the elements yeah it's you know there's one other thing that that along the same lines that has that drew me back to the Catholic Church and perhaps something similar with your own journey to Orthodoxy was I always at a difficult time with post baptismal sin and you know what what do I do with I mean I want to be good on another hand though I'm told that I don't have to be good I just have to you know have a certain set of beliefs and that just doesn't wasn't satisfying to me and so the idea that that the grace of God transforms me and and you mentioned the term theosis it's actually something mentioned in the Catholic catechism very in the section on justification and that to me was you know it was liberating so when when I go to confession I don't know what I think did you guys call a confession as well or yeah absolutely there's a different take on confession in orthodoxy but there is confession as a as a right yes and it's not it's something that like I feel you know unburdened in a way that I never sensed when I was apart from the church and so I mean I think of it this way you know if you ever every you've probably been to or seen a Billy Graham crusade where a lot of people walk down for the altar call it turns out about a third of those people are backslidden Christians and so it seems that there's there's an intuitive part of us that that when we fall away we want to be reconciled back to the church and I think that's manifested in that kind of activity at Crusades or even a church services you may be at a Protestant Church where an altar call the past week an altar call and guess who walks down number of people that are identify as Christians why they feel separated and they need to be reconciled to the church that's all that the confession does and it in it for me that's it really that was one of the things that that really drew me back as well I mean you're talking about the difference I think between you know faith is transactional you know oftentimes the way the Christian faith is posited is you know pray this prayer and to get a get-out-of-jail-free card yeah pray this prayer and you're assured of going to heaven and I think the Christian faith is much richer than that it is not just about a change life it's about an exchange life it's about the life of Christ within we can live life now that is life to the full by partaking of the graces which are offered to us in the spiritual gymnasium that we oftentimes talk about as the church that's right yeah the the the thing that I that I think a lot of people I mean don't understand about the draw that a Volvo oxen Catholicism to a lot of Evangelicals is that they tend to I think over intellectualize it and what I mean by that is it that instead of trying to understand both traditions on their own terms is an attempt to sort of translate it to the language of sort of contemporary evangelical Protestantism and I don't think you can do that you can't take for example the distinctions that you find in some writers in the evangelical world between faith and works and and and find anything parallel to that in either orthodoxy or Catholicism because their work they're working with an entirely different understanding of those categories that they trace back to the very very early church and so I mean I think that that's why it's the best way to explain this stuff and I think you've done a great job of doing that Hank is sort of you know kind of share your own story and explain that that the way in which a a lot of Evangelicals think of Catholicism and orthodoxy really can't be grasped until you if it's like learning a new language you know there are some you know nuances of words and terms that you can't really understand until you sort of are practicing it right and you're among those that are in fact engaging in that community and I think it's the same thing with these these theological differences interesting when I converted Orthodoxy my whole world blew apart in many different ways not only because of the loss of so many radio outlets and you know being kicked off of NRB television and the list goes on and on but surely thereafter I found out that I had mantle cell lymphoma and so at the same time I'm battling a disease but what really interesting to me in all of that was that while there was vitriol and then there was a lot of postings on the Internet Bible answer man walks away from the Christian faith and Bible answer man apostatize --is and and all these kind of thing but I would tell you that some of the most fantastic notes of encouragement that I got was from past presidents or presidents that's were the the Southern Baptist Convention of people throughout evangelicalism that were saying to me look I don't know orthodoxy but I know you I trust you I know that you have not gone off half-cocked I want to learn more and I I suppose you and I both share in common the appreciation we have for people like that oh I have so many of these notes I kept and I encourage you hang to keep every single one of them I have I have a folder on my hard drive called all about just full I collected everything I kept every single email and I I really can't mention the names of some people some of them have since passed away but I was I remember sitting in my office weeping at the notes including one from you that I sent back to you a couple of weeks ago you sent me this ten years ago I send it back and I got emails from people I had one fellow friend of mine at a very prominent evangelical seminary saying and I don't agree with what you did but you know you're still a brother in Christ and I look forward to working with you and you know and I and in general I mean I got some of the nasty ones as well but I got a lot of really nice ones in it and I don't think it's affected any I know it's affected none of my friendships I'm still very good friends with many people who teach at EV angelical schools about the United States and I I've actually spoken I think since 20 2007 I think I've spoken five times at the evangelical theological Society I've been invited to be on panels and and I've actually submitted papers and they've been accepted and I I you know you can't you know 25 30 years of friendships you can't change overnight and but yeah you shouldn't cute you keep all those because I look every once in a while I I you know when I'm feeling a little down or something like that I I go back and I read some of those emails and they they sort of bring back I think some good memories about that time yeah I was totally shocked when you sent me back the email that I had sent you because I had actually forgotten that I had written it yeah it's it is remarkable if she said you know the number of the number of people and you know some of them I had I mean I people I don't even know who did he I didn't even know knew me who knew of me and fact I had Walter Hooper the the guy that is in charge of CS Lewis's you know I think his literary work I don't know his exact role in Lewis's inheritance but he wrote me this lovely note uh and I you know I've known of Walter Hooper for years and I didn't even know he knew who I was oh you know it just it's amazing I'm having this amazing conversation with Frank Beckwith you know weddings i firm's i do on hank unplug is bring you the brightest and most interesting people in the world and certainly followed through on doing that by having Frank Beckwith on this podcast he is one of the brightest lights in the Christian world in fact but no you were talking about I have in front of me where I write dear Frank and Frankie I love your wife's name dear Frank and Frankie just a note to let you know that your my thoughts and prayers this is upon your conversion re-entering the Roman Catholic Church you have always been a clear thinker a man of deep conviction a person of principle I do not suppose that has suddenly changed I continue to appreciate your friendship in your faith Florence blessings Hank and then you wrote me back I feel the same about you when it comes to removed orthodoxy what I want to go to in this vein is some commentary on where we are right now June 21st century maybe even an epoch of time that Gretchen could not have imagined or certainly that Bob could not have imagined sometimes we use that unfortunate metaphor of a slippery slope but it seems to apply to the situation we're in in terms of the the culture wars as Christians we're living in a modern liberal democracy we have rights but also responsibilities we have the responsibility to promote righteousness and justice and equity and to influence the public square in the service of the good so my question is where does a Christian as a day's legal and culture climate begin to do that that's a very difficult question and you mentioned earlier Rod Dreher in his book the Benedict option I like yourself I'm a big fan of that work I think the lesson of that book is that we have to work now while it is day for tomorrow no man may work and that what I mean by that is that we have to shore up our own institutions and protect them and that includes universities Institute's such as CRI churches we've seen over the past decade or so liberalism itself transform the liberalism that you and I grew up with was a liberalism of Tolerance one that said that people should be free to live their own lives and build their institutions and influence the public square insofar as that is constitutionally permissible but what has happened today is we we have a kinda monic liberalism that is not satisfied with just let's say getting gay marriage but wants to make sure that there are no institutions that exist that promote the traditional Christian understanding of the nature of marriage in the nature of the family and they will use our public governmental institutions to make sure that that occurs so my own University Baylor University I have no doubt if in the near future may very well be challenged by the Department of Education if if they don't change it its views on on the nature of human sexuality I think so I think right now I think what we have to make we have to care most about is showing up almost institutions making sure there are legal protections in place and also I think catechizing our own people but just not telling them what they should believe but to give them the fill the full orbed rich understanding of why we believe these things and that means not just simply explaining the scriptural justification that is certainly vital and essential but also explaining why this is integral to the Christian faith and why it's always been embraced since the beginning of the church so I think we're at a time where those issues you mentioned the culture war issues and most especially issues on human sexuality our frontline and Center and we have to be prepared for attacks upon our institutions people aren't good today those that disagree with the church aren't satisfied with leaving us alone they want they don't want us to actually exist in terms of holding those views and we have to be ready for that and I'm not sure we really are I think we were given a kind of temporary reprieve with what happened in November of 2016 but I'm not sure Christians are doing the best right now to make sure that that that that in the long run we're going to have a chance yeah you were talking about the book that energy option of course is something I talked to run durab at in my podcast with him one of the comments he made was that though Donald Trump won the presidency in part with the strong supported Catholics and evangelicals the idea that someone is robustly vulgar and and fiercely combated and morally compromised as Trump will be an avatar for the for the restoration of Christian morality and social unity he said was beyond delusional that he was not the solution to the problem of America's cultural decline but a symptom of it but what's interesting though and you alluded to this is that it seems to me on the one hand we dodged a bullet in terms of religious liberties on the other hand we have to make a distinction between what happens at the ballot box and what happens in terms of how culture is shaped by the environmental institutions or the educational institutions or the entertainment institutions and the like that's right I mean the thing that I think Christians have to be concerned about is the administrative state and what I mean by that is those alphabet agencies that are in the federal government that that really have a have a lot of power to influence and shape allegedly independent institutions such as universities and colleges and other nonprofit organizations and that's when I was referring to a temporary reprieve what I was suggesting that we know that if Hillary Clinton had won she would have probably gone after through her administrative agencies these private private institutions so we have a temporary reprieve in that regard but I think rod I mean you know I I wasn't a big supporter of the president but I am delighted that he's picked certain people the federal bench that may stave off at least for the time being the sort of judicial interference with the assistance of administrative agencies that would go after the church maybe there's an easy way for you to explain this to people listening in to our conversation as opposed the question I'm asking is the question that francis schaeffer asked how then shall we live I mean we're we're in an interesting time in human history jesus said that you are the light of the world he said you are salt and if the salt loses its saltiness how's it going to be made salty again so we have to look at ourselves meaning genuine authentic Christians as the leavening force in society and so often Frank I say to people look the problem is not the culture and pagans are in exercise their job description what else would they do the real problem is Christians not exercising their job description and as a result the culture goes in a bad direction talk to Christians about what we ought to be doing so that we can once again become a leavening force in the world I think we have to first off we have to live as Christians and that means setting an example and we also have to be willing to suffer years ago Campus Crusade had this the four spiritual laws and it would begin with jesus loves you and as a wonderful plan for your life that's true to a certain extent but I think the thing that we have to tell people is that part of that wonderful plan may very well mean having to suffer for your faith and that means that if in fact you're you're in a position your institution is in a position to maybe lose its tax-exempt status if it let's say violate some administrative agency rule you may have to suffer and and I think one of the other things that Francis Schaeffer mentioned and I think it might have been in a Christian manifesto he says or the great f angelical disaster I forget which book he says that in the future Christians may be tempted to trade their liberty for peace and prosperity and I'm afraid that that the temptations is is is very much there now I mean I see it on a lot of the cultural issues one of my friends on Facebook you know sort of shifting their views because they're afraid they're afraid of being called names they're afraid of being marginalized so I I think we we have to reintroduce ourselves to the whole history of martyrdom I'm not saying that that's going to happen what I'm saying what I mean by martyrdom is not simply dying for your faith literally but also being a witness and be willing to suffer for the faith and if you look at the history of the church that's when it excelled the most so we have to be willing to do that and and I don't think there's any one particular program or policy that's going to change that's going to change things I think it also has to come from a pulpit this understanding that that that sometimes living the Christian faith especially in a culture that is hostile to it will mean that you will suffer maybe even on a personal level going through chemotherapy now and blood transfusions and ultimately having to have a bone-marrow transplant you think about all of that and you think on the one hand if only I can touch the hem of His garment and feel the healing virtue flow into my body and be instantly healed on the other hand I oftentimes think it is in suffering that we are pruned that we come to a true valuation of things and then we're poured out in new and better fashion we so often want to eliminate the suffering but it is through suffering it is through the dark threads that oftentimes the hand of God shapes our lives the most that right and I I you know I've never been through what you've been through but but I've been through you know personal turmoil and and it's it's sometimes it's very very difficult when I first arrived at Baylor of 14 years ago there were folks that wanted me didn't want me on the faculty because of my views on church and state and it was horrible it became a sort of national story and I think back to those times I don't think I'd want it differently and here's why I grew up during that time it forced me the Lord used that to kind of build a sense of patience in me and also knowing when I should not speak when I and those sorts of there are certain virtues that don't really arise unless you go through some sort of adversity but you mentioned also the fact that it's also not only transformative in terms of let's say your own virtue but also in terms of how close you grow to Christ because when we suffer we suffer with him and he suffered for us and we so there's almost an honor to be able to participate in his sufferings and you know that's the way a lot of people in the early church thought when they were under far greater persecution than any one of us in the United States will face today so I think it we have to remind ourselves of all those passages in the scripture that talk about suffering with Christ I you know he who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution right that's part of it that's part of the deal and part of the deal as far as I'm concerned was my own disillusionment with sort of the consumerism you know turn on to Jesus Christ so you're going to have a better business turn onto Jesus Christ you're going to find out prettier girlfriend I mean or Christ becomes a means to an end as opposed to being the end and then so different from what you're alluding to the Apostle Paul said I would have know him and the Fellowship of his sufferings becoming like him in his death and so somehow or other to attain to the resurrection of the Dead maybe we can end this discussion because we could go on forever but let's talk for a minute as we kind of conclude our dialogue today about having an eternal perspective I mean you're I think 10 years younger than I am I was born in 1958 you're born in 1960 if I recall so that 10 year span but I'm now am I going to be 67 this year and again there looks very very likely that I got a total mountain decline but on the other side of that I'll go into complete remission and continue on with my ministry but there's a sense in which I can steer my own mortality in the face and then not really care what people say this is anecdote that I heard I guess I read it in john climacus jonatha latter where he tells the story about these robbers going out to rob a bank or going out to rob something and they know that the eyes of God are upon them and suddenly they hear the barking of dogs and they turn and run they no longer carry out their robbery the point being is they were not scared of the eyes of God they were scared away by barking dogs and so often I think about this I think ultimately it's not going to be the approval of men that matters what is really going to matter is standing before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and he's saying well done good and faithful servant yeah and it I think you mentioned earlier about our present moment and what the church can do and what you just said actually is something else that I think that the church and here I mean proud since Catholics and Orthodox all of us is that we have to re-instill in our own people the idea that that that that we should be we should be doing things to please God and not the world and it's eat obviously it's easier said than done but you know one way that I have found helpful in my own journey is is to read a you know from the great saints in the history of the church about their own travails and sufferings and reading their works and to stay away from a lot of contemporary stuff I my wife and I cut the cable two years ago and and there's something that you know by reading people and and and dedicating yourself to to prayer and in obviously in our case the sacraments and into devotional reading that helps instill that perspective right it's not something you can sort of switch on and off it's part of the consequence of living a life with particular disciplines and I think that that's something that we have to remind ourselves that we are creatures of habit that's why virtue comes from the Latin for habitus to have it that is that it has to do with the way in which we conduct our lives and and so if you if you always are thinking about what other people think that's going to be the most important thing to you and so I think you know I found my own journey to be to sort of stay away as much as possible from from from that from what the you know everything that's happening at every moment on the internet and and reading and incorporating and appropriating in my own life those things those writings that by people that in fact have in some way live saintly lives it's kind of interesting when you bring up the internet that regard there's a plasticity of the brain that is deeply impacted by the Internet in a negative way and I think the inverse of that would be precisely what your talking about we need to get back to reading to seeing these great stories of the martyrs that have gone on before us so that we can emulate their lives that's right you know we you know one of the one of the problems with the modern age is that we put a premium on the present as sort of the measure of all of all reality so you get people you know one of the comments that you sometimes get if you are let's say offering a Christian understanding of a particular social issue people say well you know it's the 21st century right as if as if just looking at the calendar can determine what's right or wrong and that's that kind of thinking is so instilled and so much a part of our sort of cultural infrastructure that is all that matters is what people believe right now and this is why I think we losing that understanding of that we're part of an inherited tradition is deadly to the church and this is why if you look at any sort of revolution in in any country where there's an attempt to kind of bring in a very strong secularism whether it's the French Revolution or the Russian Revolution what's the thing that they go after they go after those institutions that are doing the job of passing on the cultural traditions and so when Christians start acting like that we're committing ecclesial suicide where we're sort of doing the work of the people who are enemies of the church and so I think part of our project has to be that kind of pushing back against this sort of modern understanding you can imagine that converting to orthodox see I get a lot of questions on the Bible answer man broadcasts and other venues on the distinction between Catholicism and orthodoxy or the distinction between the eastern and the Western Church and oftentimes I think the temptation is to try to lay out all of these distinction and leave the conversation at that as opposed to looking at the greater picture and one of the things I've tried to do particularly of late is to point out the contributions that the Roman Catholic the church is making around the world in terms of aid to the needy giving the piece of bread and a cup of water in the name of Jesus Christ the relief organizational work done by Roman Catholics is second to none then I think about people like yourself and there are many others like you Jay Richards I mean I the list can go on Roman Catholics are some of the brightest keenest thinkers of our day I think as some of the books that I've read I mentioned earlier that I was reading a compilation of papers on theosis and that compilation was called called to be children of God the Catholic theology of human deification and some of the richest material from some of the finest thinkers on the planet so maybe you have a comment on this but for me one of the things that I think we often ought to try to resist is going to well let's point out where the differences are and up for my side of the equation the eastern church as opposed to the Western church without really pointing out the significance of what the Roman Catholic Church is doing around the world and neither one of us thinks at least I'm sure you don't think and I don't think that orthodoxy is a panacea no do you think Roman Catholicism is a panacea but we have to point out instead of going to the differences we have to point out what is happening as a result of Catholic thinking and what would happen if that were eliminated from our world today yeah you know one of the things that John Paul the second said was that the church has two lungs and it needs to breathe with both and of course the lungs were the East and the West so I think that you know I think that there's a lot that we can learn from each other and I no from my own journey you know some of what some of the things some of the individuals they drew me back to Catholicism were were academics and another including John Paul the second their writings on a lot of these contested questions in our public square and in fact I tell the story in my book return to Rome it was I think 1998 I had just read for the first time John Paul the second encyclical encyclical evangelion vitae which is the gospel of life and suits me fiddy a trois he'll say the the faith and reason and I called it JP Moreland at Biola University who's a friend of both of us and I called JP and I said this is again 1998 this is nine years before I returned to the Catholic Church and I I read a quote from fitrat CO and I said JP guess who this is he he reeled off a bunch of names he said Alvin Plantinga Richard Swinburne who are well known Christian philosophers I said no it's the Pope and JP pause from Roman he goes wow I guess he's one of us [Laughter] you got or something in fact I remember then JP years later after the Catholic wanted to read more about this and he says he was blown away he says I can't believe there's so much in this encyclical that I agree with because this is this is evident and they said you know some of what because I don't because I don't know how much dallas willard knew about john paul ii but it sounds they're very close and it turned out that john paul ii in philosophy was they was influenced by phenomenology who whose great thinker was a guy named who cerro and dallas world was was a a student of who serif and so of course dallas ruler was a great evangelical philosopher at USC and so small world oh but yeah that that JP story I mean it really you know when I when I reflected back when I was working on the book I you know I tried to you know think of times were you know things that didn't seem that's a big deal at the time now looking back yeah that that's interesting you know it's really interesting is the title with your book I'm not the title as much as the subtitle a return to Rome and then the subtitle confessions of an evangelical Catholic a lot of people would say that's got to be an oxymoron yeah you know I I call myself an evangelical Catholic because I believe in the good news I believe in the gospel I believe in evangelism but I'm also a Catholic I you know identify as a member of the Roman Catholic Church and that's tradition that I that I'm in and I mean I wanted to say I end the book and I make a case for this in the last chapter and I in the book by pointing out all the different sorts of evangelicals are out are out there I mean if you look at for example the F Angelica theological society you have people who are part of ETS who are Calvinist who are minions who identify as Wesley ins who identify as Anglicans and between those different views I mean there's wide disagreement right I mean it seems to me that why can't you be a evangelical Catholic you know or a Catholic evangelical I don't know which one is the right adjective but uh so yeah I mean I I think anyone who believes in sharing the gospel and and and seeking converts for Christ is in a sense in as angelical I mean I know historically the word evangelical is linked to a particular historical moment in in both the US and Europe but I think today you know given the way in which the culture has changed I think the term evangelical Catholicism and makes sense especially for those of us who you know spent a good part of our lives as evangelicals we enter you and you enter orthodoxy and I enter Catholicism with having been formed by that tradition and I think we bring the best of that to our respective our respective traditions so as someone who lived as an evangelical for quite some time I am I'm not like your typical cradle Catholic and and you are probably not like your typical cradle Orthodox and that's a good thing I think there are many gifts and many talents that evangelicals have that I think both Orthodox and Catholics can in fact appropriate and still without compromising their traditions this conversation is starting to remind me of being with Bob and Gretchen peasanty know in Southern California sitting on the couch and the conversation just keeps going on and it goes on and goes on pretty soon as 1 or 2 in the morning I go that's because I've got a lot of people listening in but I tell you just fascinating having this discussion with you and catching up with you I've always appreciated you as an intellect but I loved you as a brother in the Lord as someone that deeply cares about living out the Christian life of making an impact whether yet done well thank you thank you Hank I very much you know you're very much in our prayers I love you brother you're a good man and I hope we can have this conversation again years from now well me too and I hope you give my best to Frankie still remember her coming to the Christian Research Institute she was a delight yeah Keith she's terrific well Frank thanks so much for enriching us with this podcast as a wonderful conversation I'm sure people listening in to this edition of Hank unplugged have been greatly blessed but stretched as well god bless you dear brother you too thank Hank you got it in this again is another episode of Hank unplugged conversations with some of the clearest thinkers some of the brightest minds and what we're trying to do is not make this sort of a question-and-answer interview format but more of a conversation where the personality easily saw the personality of Frank Beckwith come out his incredibly bright guy but he's a personality as well and a blast to be around it's been years since I got to hang out with him so this was fun for me hobo is fun for you as well stay tuned for the next edition of Hank unplugged you can subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your favorite podcasts make sure that you share make sure that you rate review and make sure that you subscribe thanks for tuning in look forward to the next episode of Han coming [Applause]

Channel: Bible Answer Man

Views: 2,887

Rating: 4.8431373 out of 5

Keywords: Apologetics, Bible Answer Man, Bible, Christian Research Institute, CRI, Hank Hanegraaff, Christ, Christian, Christianity, God, Gospel, Jesus, Scripture, Truth, Podcast, Hank Unplugged, Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Conversion, Frank Beckwith

Id: pxdYR4ClNLA

Length: 85min 25sec (5125 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 22 2017