Conversations | Premiere | Artist Talk | Wolfgang Tillmans

you well maybe we should start at the beginning and your first exhibition was with Daniel in 1993 so maybe you could say how you first met did he meet you Afghan or his work first yeah actually I had a friend who was looking at the ID magazine that time okay she talk louder yeah and he showed me this ID magazine and said like but that's a cool thing to do and there was an ID party and then we met and I said like you know I saw that photograph in your in that magazine and and he said oh god I'm getting taller sorry can we have some how can you hear me I can also speak a little louder no it was a great coincidence that if there was an ID party in Cologne the day before the opening of the unfair urinalysis I turn ative art fair yeah to up Cologne and Maureen Bailey took a piece of my work took the picture of floods and Alex sitting in the trees she took that too unfair and I volunteered to to print it in Hamburg and bring it to Cologne but the night before was was this ID party and and Daniel's friend Michael came up to me and you know we saw these pictures and we want to meet you should meet Daniel and so I met Daniel the night before and so we struck up our relationship the day before I officially first shows in a there was a relationship now you came to the suitcase and then you've soaking all that photographs I said hmm and then in the bag was like oh this is interesting yeah it was also nice but it was November and in January we already had the show yeah so what was it about that the content I was like this thing's what was what was important about the contents of the suitcase that magic suitcase is actually important because um he's so much about two kids no I mean in these days we didn't know that that's how the whole thing started so easy and so like um without thinking what we are doing now yeah and that was maybe a nice start because to do things like the artist at least what the retrospective this always like looks like so like planned or like that it was really a cool thing you just met and you did and we understood that he is a has a certain talent or something right and it was amazing and then we went from there yeah it was not a planned thing but what we are going to doing here today do you think times have changed now that that kind of encounter doesn't happen so much if he was servicing aces and no I guess people need always in in unexpected ways or I guess no but the I mean Cologne in those days was still the center of the West German or art world or actually by that time of course Germany was real minor and really everything happened there in this really small city and and I mean it was hugely exciting for me because I had moved to Britain in ninety and and somehow through Cologne I reconnected or through Daniel I reconnected to Cologne which is the region where I was from now but after school I moved to Hamburg and I hadn't really had a personal connection to Cologne and then from 93 I regularly came it was of course a fantastic time with people in the gallery like Pilate off his eyes against when she came by the first day of installation and was at rest so actually then boot at our hundred but about that forget what is a real name for wondered boot empowering reader stunned Sigmar Polke came had looked like twenty minutes on that photograph metals also Cologne yeah we had a tiny room but nothing not no money nothing you know but then these people come also that was cologne and this town had people in Berlin the young just forget about that the Cologne was there was a certain time more than other European cities but it was a good start and there was a carnival also maybe or something I mean ever I never did so much kind of a but get started also with us he remember yes sorry it was eight is that the two years two weeks later after the opening I came back to celebrate carnival had never never done in any way tiny need also before I mean I have a reputation book it was kind of important because um things started and he was talking in the bar about things that you know I guess what was particular in that you cannot I really cannot plan I could not have planned that the that time there was literally no art market and there was a whole new generation of artists thinking about what can what could art look like now what can we do and I mean in terms of market like if I wanted to keep my photographs really accessible and so they were 200 euros the other smaller size and and I think we sold three in the first show and and it was not about saying it was not yeah it was totally I mean there nobody expected things to fail we didn't expect any sales and which that changed the kind of work you make then you do expect things to sell and when they're not 200 years I'm sorry but but you also want that people like your work I mean not to be sorry but it was totally interesting that that maybe have in common with either that he wanted to have the viewers involved know mmm like that is interesting yeah I was not about the and was there a big change from showing work in magazines and u2 publications to compared to an exhibition is that different or was that the same I mean it was it was a similar amias activity I technically first did exhibitions and and the year later started to work for published in ID and it has always been a conscious conscious decision to go where there's the most energy you know I felt there was a lot of energy in I mean in clubs music in ID has always been this place that I felt inspired by I felt inspired by my physical possibilities of spaces and by the physical possibilities of magazines and and it's been a simultaneous thing in hindsight and even at the time people always think that there's only one trajectory possible from magazine to art yeah but it's so stupid I mean people have always done that in the past you know things happen at the same time and and and they are both valid means and in our show you know like I showed the magazine page which I had designed myself as a multiple as a unlimited print next to a small print I made with myself yeah and and to me they were both equal equally valid art objects and and that questioning of of Worth and value that was I think very typical of the time know that below in other words was - for you - I was thought it was a time maybe I mean yeah the status of the art object you know after the 80s which was very much about objects people were questioning yeah what how special is photography of course yeah the photographer came out then everybody was trying to frame it how are you trying to are you trying to frame it - sorry as a gallerist were you trying to frame it - photography no no um no I was not be interesting in framing their time but even not today it becames a different thing you know like contents wise but now wolfgang you've said before that your approach to photography as a medium has always been that you wanted to approximate what it feels for people to see through your eyes did you find that Daniel did that instantly that he felt that he could see through your eyes good question I mean I certainly felt understood I think that's for sure oh yeah laughs oh no I guess that step was the basis of shot of our friendship and that's what I mean I feel really fortunate that that I have dealers that that are for our relationship first and foremost is based on an understanding of of the work that we can actually talk about the content and and like the whole strategic or whatever conversation is secondary it is like talking about about work and I think that's still today the same as it was 20 years ago I hope no you started talking we're still talking and you extend that relationship so the one you would like to have with viewers as well I mean there's only a limited amount of of actual conversations you can have yeah and but you see the work is a kind of mini social platform um I mean it I mean the good thing is with with you know when I get approached by people in like in a bar or something and then the friend asked me does that happen a lot or is it annoying and I say you know it's usually nice people I mean they would only know there's only feel that they wanted to talk to me because they feel drawn to the work and they are not there for you know it's not about celebrity or anything and annoying yeah because it's because it's it's a different level of being known you know like I'm I'm only known within a small circle and and when people feel a connection then I feel that it's not annoying you know yeah I think it's great and that's actually really what I try to do to tuk-tuks people maybe I mean not in in the same way or predictable way I can't plan how that happens but I think if when some body connects to 10% of the pictures in a show you know and get some sort of trigger oh I know what that feels like or I have a sense what that might have smelled like you know that's all I can hope for yeah but he got a pleasure from that yes no yes I thought yes oh yes when you won the Turner Prize did that that to give you more friends didn't more people come up to you in bars did Daniel raise the prices no me raising the prices do I look high right no we of course there was a conversation for money and a certain point also but um it was all so much to later you know that was not that was not ever the main yeah discussion but just winning a price like that change things for you it's funny like the at the time like in the late nineties when when all this for or around the Turner price was going on everybody my amongst my friends were all highly cynical of the whole thing I was in critical and we were not taking it that seriously and when I was nominated I I knew I looked at it from the inside and and I mean I was of course shaken and I thought oh my god no and but I also knew that artistically it is a bizarre setup to put four artists against each other and it's kind of not not right in a way you know we knew it this is done for a public spectacle to draw attention to art and it's a super successful price because it is set up in this wrong way whereas a price that is given to an artist and there's no competition people write a small article about it and this idea of competition is what what a broader crowd and started but was really proud it was a remembering it was walking down the stairs and then people was really like this postcard and it was really like wow yeah it was an amazing moment also I mean the Englishmen only came maybe doing this yeah and the Turner Prize was be involved think come on you know you know it was a little thousand he didn't expect it if you would get that thing but it was amazing I remember and then for three days I was a celebrity yeah really since then the next morning I walked out of the house oh come on the son gay porn photographer caps eternal the terrible thing is it was the Daily Telegraph oh my god even though I'm the son he was really the telegraph which is the equivalent to the insect set methods wrote gay porn gay pornographer German border no no no don't forget the journalist no no that's that was the English shortly that's really interesting like when sirota called me I said oh I'm real I mean listen concerned like oh I don't want that there's some German gauge drum drum drum yeah and none of that happened it was only a couple of papers I think the mail in the telegraph picked up on me being gay the English are very good at incorporating foreign influences that they like yeah really good I've always been treated as a london-based German born artist yeah and and nobody was funny like the for three days I had Street recognition people really recognized on the street and after three days it died down which which nearly told me that basically in order to be properly famous you have to be in the news every three days vanessa was very happy that it was us the one one of experience and then ever since he didn't enjoy it no no no I would would hate it if he had happened all the time but anyway and so I always felt it's not going to change anything in the dice to her and Costello de Rivoli Louisiana tour was already planned to start in 2001 so things on you know were on a somewhat it didn't initiate something but what did change was that those who were on the fence who had no particular opinion about me they failed or he must be kind of alright because you know an actor who wins an Oscar it probably is not the worst actor yeah those who didn't like my work they didn't like it after the Turner either but and those who liked it also didn't change much but somehow in the middle ground it was a different it started so differently and the Turner maybe change for some people something to look at you work more but you didn't change really not before not after all right that was not your and then I always like that you know if your you get a lot of attention and of course they say like three days and then you go I'd continue what you were you know and and that's why you are what we sitting here something like that yeah we talked earlier about them the magazine being kind of the important space at the time in the early 90s to show we're going interesting space today obviously the cultures more digital and we talked a bit earlier about Instagram and the other wolfgang Tillman's who hasn't posted anything but how does them I guess the increased velocity and it's not Wolfgang who has this instrument well but the increased velocity of image making and distribution how does that affect your work and we see people walking around the fair with mobile phones just um it's funny because I had this feeling of accelerated image production at the end of the 90s I don't know if you remember everybody had little small compact cameras yeah and and people were snapping away and then I realized like what what is this this is it's all about being seen taking a picture it's not about the picture it's about the act of being seen to be photographing so it's like a strange loop about who is in control of this situation and the moment you are pointing you are somehow signaling to the people around you that you are somehow understanding this and and there was a an acceleration then that I felt and and and a whole shift of the presence of pictures of young people in the media how it shifted into being marketable imagery which I was you know never could say anything against but I was never part of you know I never I never did advertising or all that but but it plays an important role in some of your work as well that image culture yes and it still does but but survived by 99 mm I am I actually greatly reduced my output of camera made pictures and and for the next 10 years very much worked with photographs that were not made with a camera and and they were these at the abstract the abstract pictures which are actually very concrete because they are the things that they are you know they are not abstract they are actually something in front of you but they don't perform as photographs so when you look at them they perform differently and I wanted to slow down that image consumption that I already felt accelerating then and then actually the image production and consumption really accelerated yet by the time was the end of the decade I felt well now it's so crazy now I want to get involved again where the whole novels work started which then culminated in the show in service two years ago yeah maybe you could explain a bit more about no adults and this idea that maybe I mean on the first hand it sounds like a sort of really grand scheme to capture the world how did that start was that the sort of long burning thing or actually I wouldn't mind no and said ask Daniel hole when what they want to listen to you my mother though because we we shall work in 2010 from that emerging a body of work or in so because when did it become tangible as that what I I guess it really started for me in 2007 already I thought I want to unlearn certain ways of making photographs yeah it's it's the hardest now you know when you know how to do something to not do it so well but also you can't D scale yourself because it would be opposed to try and be very can t obviously can't be spontaneous on demand and but I was starting a thinking process like what would pictures look like 20 years rewound yeah today and and then I started to travel and leave and then it changed change parameters like non familiar places no connection new camera different technology and was a bit like a midlife crisis the place was allowed I never thought about that not so bad mister I maybe there's something and changing exploring you know hmm I turned 14 2008 thierry mother no I think I mean I guess the humble Gabon will show in 2008 was this that was a really defining moment for me I wasn't like I think it was very I don't know afield it was a significant point and and and what I formulated there about the object the photographic object in space with a huge to study center installation and the paper talks and everything came together about the manifestation of this sheet of paper near all its possible forms and I guess rather than sit on that and dwell on that I felt to go in almost in the opposite direction whilst not abandoning that I kept on and working on these subjects as well and how do you select an image that becomes an artwork as they're a sort of editing processes a particular this one not that one how does that happen do talk to Daniel and I mean at a later stage because I don't I know that I can't use Maureen or Daniel or Christopher for hours and hours a month yeah and he does oh I don't I made you know like I said it doesn't like the attention span yeah of course you know you can't like show every just unedited selection or stuff yeah I of course do a lot of work myself but but studio visits are really important to me because even the moment you show it to a third person you already see yourself and you know almost yourself in the moment that's interesting that you say that because the third person idea when you present something first time also only in the studio it helps you know right hmm it's kind of hear yourself talk and then you know yes there's actually genuine or do I want this to be good because the big thing about editing is you have to edit out the want yeah now the moment because of course we want this I want this to be good but the wanting counts for nothing but it's really hard to to get that just for nothing yeah they don't get it there's a naturist but there is a direction what to go you know that mean it's so interesting because um there's a lot of others would never do this it's a very interesting practice in a way which is very actually unique orally and you ever have situations with Dan you know more and you're Chris we're eating this works something's amazing and then they turn up and say what were you thinking I think they have safely on occasions we hate that moment yeah of novels yes worth it I mean I and I know you know if they say they don't like it and I a day later still think I wanted and of course I do it and then they of course when we change our mind absolutely yeah that a good to be that also clear yeah but then we also said sometimes go in your zip yeah we stood behind supply it really made that was really it was a dialogue it was not only I guess I mean I can really like someone sometimes it just opens my eye and I think no no no no way and then but maybe the idea resurfaces some years later in another way but it is it is a very free conversation and and maybe here are passes where it is about galleries maybe it is important to say and I hope it doesn't sound cheesy but it is actually but that sounds like to falling but but people underestimate the importance of gallerists in artists lifes and practice you know the amount I mean I only know really and I only work with galleries that all have incredibly in-depth relationships to some of their artists now maybe it's sometimes not all because they work in different cities or but if for example on the booth we have like adding bleach out from 1991 yeah shown in earlier three first but on our first show and then a silver piece from new have you wanted to do that a little bit like that you know that one of the first photographs presented is a very new one and it was always an exploit interesting expression and all that is so it's interesting to see this together there's a vile broad enough enough we just wanted to sing your praises oh maybe a little too bright yours the now I don't know me oh my god well people think that they did this is just a very much a commercial relationship but it is very much about content and nobody knows the work better then then the galleries yeah because you know there's an ongoing as it happens and and you involved in making decisions about what goes on your gallery space in my case very much I like to just sort of experience I don't like it when I go see a fair and in in free booths I see very similar work by the same artist so I like to make sure that every gallery has a different type of work yeah there's no repetitions and and I guess almost all galleries certainly Daniel and Maureen don't change their booths throughout the fair yeah they see their booth as a reflection of what they want to show at this moment and that is one thing that they want to show as a whole composition and you don't show you don't change an exhibition halfway through and and so most of my galleries deal with this as an exhibition and I think you take it super seriously what this is like a portrait have to stay the whole week you know that's it so bifel myself so you want to be wrong something you're loving nice and if you don't sell there you go home doesn't matter no thank you thank you yeah it is true it is true and what can you have given an off space in Berlin now you've shown some artists that Daniel work with is a Gascon the only one yeah but that one but that one did you did you learn how to do this from people like Daniel and Maureen or is a reaction against what they are trying to show them how to do it properly no he's beast now it all started in 2006 in London when I reduced my teaching position in Frankfurt at the stateís Euler to a half-time position and I felt that the time that I've saved I want to use in a different way of communication and show in London work that I felt was underrepresented in London I felt at the time there was such a focus of on just promoting your own work and doing your own thing amongst young artists and no no real engagement with society you know at a time and we're talking 2005 with the Iraq war and and a lot of stuff that we could be concerned about going on and and I felt there was a complete disconnect in with a lot of in in a big part of the art world and younger art world in London and and so I the first show was David Vaughn a ravitch who you know like I thought big so brave to risk his entire career on like what like how he talked and you know who would talk like this today like actually Daniel lent the sculpture I don't have that fantastic piece the boy and it start the accent yeah a text with a 100 spot that is amazing yes don't you think that was so heartbreaking no and and and so it was really a communication tool it certainly wasn't made to make money it was just to show eternity voices that were for some reason or other overlooked or they wouldn't get a nice eh oh yeah a certain time so because they're not well enough well-known enough or artists that died too young or that had no limited editions and therefore were excluded from the art market yeah so people working in different ways that in the end made the work somehow drop out of sight and but on the other hand it's not dogmatic like I do show also friends occasionally you know like like there was a show in Berlin in March the Calhoun Chris curating a turn or showing he's but then again eases of course highly political figure in her own way so with the space and with the teaching to some degree you're trying to shape the way other artists are perceived to engage with society or will engage with society to kind of spread your doctrine um um it's not a doctrine certainly but I mean I yeah I don't think I don't do this in a detached space I mean I do this to connect with other people I mean we live together and the whole if we are alone no point I find - you know you can't engineer connections you cannot engineer it but you can try to to make sense and and it is true it is in the art world is an incredible place for ideas to be thought and and I have no no mission but I think it's an amazing still an amazingly free space yeah and there are incredible things thought up and of course there are a lot of things happening that I don't find so interesting and it's about using your voice and trying to make increase the interesting stuff so you do have a mission okay and you've talked a lot about other artists to what extent do other artists influence you in terms of what you do or talking with them discussing things with them finding similarities common ground is that important to you I mean they are yes there's I mean this I guess a super important very close relationship I have had with your client the painter and with undisclosed so like two artists as partners and of course there is a extremely in-depth exchange and and/or traveling together looking at art together I think looking at art together I mean also us looking at art together it's one of the most wonderful things led to I think it's so important to do it with somebody else you understand you know this Yahoo I'm sure it was amazing mmm yes to happen yeah one I think that his microphone is not up or she'll ever get a handheld one okay spill out all our that's messin that's much better and and yes now the dialogue with other artists is super important and again it cannot be increased at will you know you can't find like like you know meaningful connections on demand but it was interesting they somehow like each other or you they are connections and some of these happened in the early days and last throughout life mainly and and and of course the longer you know each other it becomes almost like school friends kind of know what you were like and so you can't each other and you used to sit on the back of the bus um 20 we're going to throw it open to questions in a second from the audience so if you can think about them and get ready with your hands that would be great so do you have a moment when you realized I'm an artist Thank You non-crystalline um I guess there's one photograph which I kind of call my picture number one which is called lock-on ourself from 1986 when I was 18 and it's this photograph down my leg down my t-shirt and it's and but then turned around 180 degrees and it's it is the first abstract picture the first figurative picture this was self portrait but it was this act of saying I am and doing an unreasonable act there wasn't it's not there's no it was not a reasonable act to do this and and it was standing on the beach in France and on an interval trip when as this self affirmative moment I am but that was not what I felt then and you know I'm not doing this now deliberately yeah I just did then years later I recognized that but I was just very very fortunate that I was not good at art in school meaning that's my that's been a great advantage that I was not pointed out as the talented one in my family yeah you know my interest was was in science originally and then very much in social sciences in in in the you know they have peace movement end to end and applying makeup descending attire students know if you're talented at drawing and you get spotted in school that you can't change that that's your condition you have to deal with that but I mean Johan was spotted early on and he was always or he is going to be the artist and my case I behaved like an artist I was doing things but they were not recognized as art and I was doing these photocopies when I was 18 yeah of course nobody thought this is art I thought this is art but and I always had luckily I had an underlying self-confidence but I wasn't so pushed in that direction and that was really great and and and I was never the one with a camera because my family were all amateur photographer sir photography was the last thing I picked up there were a couple of good presets yeah that allowed me to to grow to 20 to the age of 20 before I actually was then forced almost to have to acknowledge four there was that questions if you raise your hands and there's a microphone this when I visit dozen if you wait for the microphones to arrive at this one yeah what was it that was so inspiring about Berlin nightlife and counterculture for you as an artist and what inspires you today and it was actually London nightlife or European nightlife it's funny like I never really lived in Berlin until three years ago but I guess some of the pictures happened in Berlin and I connect to Berlin but it was really London that that inspired me most and I've been observing subculture in London from my little home town in Germany for many years and then at the end of the 80s when acid house happened and ecstasy culture and it was the first time that I could be part of a youth movement and and I guess anybody who was around at the time knows that it felt really like this is going to change the world like it only everybody took an e you know it would just change so much oh yeah of course that didn't happen but I think I like tell me what what I find so fascinating and liberating about some aspects of nightlife is when o is when it is free I mean it can't be necessarily completely free of charge but when it is free of hierarchies when it is in a utopian space where things can happen in a in unexpected ways and and and I watched with great concern how nightlife today is so much more controlled and commercial experience starting with smoking ban and our smoking ban means of course that no joints can be smoked that all toilets are completely supervised that no sex can happen anywhere now we are talking it was like like this this idea of control controlling public spaces controlling free spaces that's something that I felt so passionate about in the beginning and that's really what the essence an essence of my work was about and I feel that that is very much encroached upon and and we are in a world that is becoming less and less free and I feel a great need to defend personal freedom in in seemingly superficial ways like how we are told to behave there's a lot of normative pressure today that we didn't imagine 20 years ago possible good sleep on that easy okay I'm not saying okay next question is the one is there another question that one sure hi my name is rose and yesterday I read in the art newspaper about your project at Manifesta I'm looking forward to that and yes of course a question about this was it a difficult decision for you to participate at manifesto you say something about them manifesto takes place in st. Petersburg that's why the question if it was difficult to say yes and in the light of the homophobic politics in in Russia I I have true points of view on a boycott in one way I fundamentally believe that boycotts do work because of South Africa like South Africans I spoke to all agree that it was the boycott that changed apartheid but the other aspect is somebody said a boycott means nothing if it doesn't cost you anything you know if there's an if you just comfortably can boycott something because it makes you feel better and makes you look better in the public eye then it's not much of an effort and I feel this there's a certain aspect of Russia anti-russian rhetoric that comes a little bit too easy and overlooks I was almost like double standards yeah and so I feel I would I have not opposed to a gallery taking a picture of mine to Abu Dhabi and I have not opposed been opposed to stopped my work to be in a group show in Shanghai and you know the and I didn't boycott the United States when they illegally invaded Iran I made work as part of the USA true that dealt with I guess where I expressed some opinions but I so to now say I'm going to boycott this Russian show felt failed wrong and I believe you I'm personally faced with Russia but I believe you my boycott is also wrong it's wrong word in this thing because nobody is boycotting nobody is caring I mean not the government in Russia is this damn about unhandsome hmm it's not about the color Olympics or something yeah it's not like yeah but I believe you because that's what you're thinking and doing but I'm not going because I'm personal yes but you know no it is it is it is a difficult decision but eat and if it would collapse now I mean I'm sure it would have ramifications but I mean of course when you go there you also see immediate and amazing people and it is important to under to do I feel and it's interesting since my move to Berlin that I have a deeper interest in Eastern Europe because there still an incredible mental block between Eastern Western Europe and and I only 2011 had my first exhibition in Poland and I hadn't really been to Poland before 2010 in that's kind of crazy know that Berlin is 100 kilometers from Poland and I've been to every other country in Europe and so I'm very much interested in in dialogue with Eastern Europe there probably got time for one more question standing one in the middle yes hi my name is Robert you were talking earlier about your photographs being not only about the photographic image but very much about the object being present in the space the photographic paper how do you stand on the trend that seems to me to be more or less a media made up things anything any way of more and more heart being shown online or sold online or online galleries being growing and well in other words do you think that looking at art online can substitute the experience in space well obviously can't substitute the experience of space because there is no space on your desktop it is a two-dimensional thing you just cannot experience it and and is interesting like Daniel and I were talking about showing pictures here and then you decide no and then we decided not and Daniel was saying like no but you know when you show pictures and people think that they've seen it and they don't go and and also on on your website your pictures are deliberately small know that they can evaluate them that they cannot be somehow seen that you imagine that you've seen it I have a different approach a little bit because i have this i had this striking experience in sculpture in macedonia in 2005 when i had a show there at the occasion of the first gay and lesbian week and the people who were there like a ninety or a hundred at the opening a lot of them knew my work and not a single person had seen an exhibition or a book even and this was a complete eye opener so I felt since then is not a question if it's cool uncool to have a website but it's actually a necessity for so many people to you know they cannot see the work and so a decent picture quality is is good but of course it is terrible people think now they have experienced something somebody but and I mean I think certainly electronic the medium is a relevant art medium because everything can potentially be a relevant art medium and when you have millions of people look at something and deal with something you know how can this not be a venue for art so I'm totally open to that but I'm not sure that I have ventured there and that I will venture there but I have I have just last week and made a work installed shown for the first time of work that is immaterial photographs that the Venice architecture Biennale and that is actually dealing with the idea of immaterial photographs projected at a quality that is satisfactory to my image standards and so I'm thinking about what might come after the print but that is not for me on the surface of a handheld device yeah I think on that note people are probably waiting to rush back to the offline art but thank you all for coming and really thank you for going and Daniel for a really fun you

Channel: Art Basel

Views: 17,008

Rating: 4.7894735 out of 5

Keywords: Art Basel, Wolfgang Tillmans, Daniel Buchholz, Conversations, Basel

Id: EAdK8GrXNrA

Length: 56min 18sec (3378 seconds)

Published: Sat Jun 21 2014