#ContractsForSale Expose' - Newsfile on JoyNews (24-8-19)

[Music] you're welcome back this is nice Felicio most authoritative in the news analysis platform I guess this morning for the very first segments we have divided their program into to ask you how you may have witness sometimes when that becomes necessary as we did last week so my guest for the first segment missus ed tech may his former Minister of Finance thank you for joining us sir always pleasure to have people who have said in the highest office in this area make time to help us understand some of the issues you've been consulting and not not had much in the political you know CS yeah politicking going on and we hardly hear you well I do like this you know there's always a technical aspect in a political I see a stick okay so I I just to join in clarifying the technical professional resumes okay thank you very much as always and you would understand that the second segment will deal with the bank crisis and the end of the clean up exercise by the Bank of Ghana so he should be very very useful and helpful to all of us also here in the studio is calm now attaboy he is a procurement specialist and a member of the Ghana Institute of procurement and supply the body that have also issued a setting you know damning report about their own member a senior member I'm talking about the suspended chief executive of the pp a they are saying that they are going to investigate him they are going to take disciplinary actions like so he's being referred to the Ethics Committee and will get to know the results however they have decried and denounced the acts found in Vanessa's documentary good morning and welcome to News 5 good money thank you very much I'd like to have you okay here also in the studio is Clara Barry Cassity she's a lawyer and teaches the law the Faculty of Law ah she's also on the board of the sea Dee Dee thank you for joining us Clara I'm happy to be great when there are many people who are excited that you're on the show this morning because when we advertise many people are so excited to have you I'm happy to be okay right okay so contracts for sale don't commit watch this as such at the Registrar general's department shows that talent discover limited has to shareholders a genom AG a majority shareholder of 60% of the shares and Frances ah him who owes the remaining 40% shares the two are also the directors of the company which was registered in June 2017 speaking generally on how to expose people try to vary their names in order to hide your ownership of companies the CEO of the PPA a Jeanine Watson edges said a number of ways could be used to reveal the true owners well some people have a way and I have dealt with some in the past yeah they were not they decide to even use India using their names they decide to use a pair them in a way so for instance if you have three names they can use I didn't what into register one company use the word tg3 Jinnah Majid register another company here do you know do you know what some uz1 people are trying to perpetrate perpetrate any kind of fault I would say that at the time that they have intention to do that they are not so smart to look at the other implications they can change and do this in in luxury they call it work capitation see they can do all this permutation the one thing that gives them out is they have the same address all you can look at one particular telephone number running through you know and it becomes so clear that yes they tried to you know as it were mmm navigating and and manipulate the system but there is something that will always you know give them out by that kind of tree you know and we have seen it several times sometimes is not they need its telephone number sometimes is not telephone number s address location of the two directors and shareholders of talent discovery limited one of them pointed to the PPA CEO the spelling of his name and AJ are the same as those on the registration documents even though the registration of the company does not have his middle name or is initial his official name as found in documents he signs s not a genom AJ is a genin Watson AJ but he signs a be AJ in official documents including approval letters and the PPE but there are more clues two of the companies of the TDL group frosty eyes natural mineral water an ABM logistics ganon limited half shareholders and directors namely Messi AJ and AJ named AJ the tax identification number of the adjoining AJ in the registration of talent discovery limited is the same tax identification number used by the adjoining AJ in the company C jointly owned with Messi AJ my investigation also revealed that the wife of the PPS CEO is called messy AJ so it is highly probable that the ajan emoji of the TDL group is the same addendum Watson AJ of the public procurement Authority the address of frosty eyes a member of the TDL group is a street in Airport Hills in Accra and that is where the PPA boss lives my investigation revealed further clues that suggest that that the head of the public procurement Authority was the same person who owned the company engaged in selling government contracts in March 2018 there was a funeral in a brewery in the eastern region and the three shareholders in a TDL group of companies all featured in the floral invitation the invitation named APHA CEO of the public procurement Authority as a brother of the deceased it also named Francis I am CEO of talent discovery limited and mrs. Massey AJ as in-laws of the deceased manager is LBJ's wife and Francis ah he is a BA Jays brother-in-law with these an added usha of evidence I confronted a genom watson AJ with an inevitable question still be a june of the company called talent discovery limited i do is that your company and no do you so how do you know this completely as they say a cousin of mine okay we have information that this company has been brought here a number of times for approval restricted tendering yes did he come to your attention yes and I learned about it yes I did I did declare at a other board meeting we have evidence issue yeah today no is there it's in our minutes is what I'm saying if we want to find out yes it's in the minute so you can always find out okay and was any of this your cousin I wouldn't disclose it you can have it if you want it we have done I checked and saw your cousin but your name is on the registration document it's not my cousin he's my in-law my brother-in-law brother-in-law cautiously I will not disclose his name Francis not him yeah and then you had a majority shareholder and also a director I'm not a majority shareholder I'm a director a director and a 60% shareholding no it is 50/50 you're welcome back so that just some five minutes of dumb Kumi contracts for sale and who is involved the man at the very top and as we're playing it the lawyer in the studio and the lawyers out there would definitely be wondering whether - he has some legal training on how to do cross-examination and the manner in which he did it so calmly many people are surprised about that and I was a commentary as we're playing it so Clara just very brief to start with you you admire the count de Mena in which he approaches it but he does it in a way we're told we are taught in law school that don't ask a question - what you don't know the answer if you are doing cross-examination so he comes across to you as somebody who has all his answers and he was just seeking affirmation or denial of see so what else are you excited about oh I apart from the be yes being calm definitely excites me also because it came across more like two pals having tea and yes chatting no emotions just like a normal child and they are the end of the day all the facts came out and then of course it's a bit embarrassing that's you I mean you are just caught you realize yourself that you've been caught more or less particularly because you attempted to lie at the very beginning excellent excellent piece of investigative work bye bye bye Manasa we are very grateful this is great work okay particularly coming from the CBD you there see Essos you've been talking about some things even including the gun integrity initiative attract even Bandung some figures about and they say that procurement is the biggest platform for corruption and even bandung some figures about all the time they say about three billion united states dollars is lost to this country as a result of corruption so here in Ghana we lose about three billion every year because of corruption and we are not talking about petty corruption now as a procurement aspect how do I call you at a bit okay as a procurement aspect whilst you're watching and we're having a conversation backstage you we're talking about from I don't know about the company - it is my cousin it is in law I have shareholding initially I don't then fifty-fifty when in fact it is not fifty-fifty it is 4060 correct em and how the name was discovered and connected properly to him it is something that is new or this is wholly confirming something that is traditional in the procurement system okay thank you we do what we call qualification any vendor who expresses interest in doing business with you you don't just enroll the person first you do the textbook assessments where you are checking is the company registered if it's registered but what are the objects most importantly what are the objects then you want to be sure that they meet the legal requirements as in they have registered for transparence and then just PT so these are the documentation you check on a you have a distance so you always want to be sure mostly because you want to be sure that direct people even within your organization who are conflicted in this because every process put your medicine process and even even worse a lot of people within the organisation so you always want to be sure that there isn't any conflict of interest issues so you have to do that assistance that is the first thing we do Yannick returns documentary exercise to look at the financials so you want to be sure that the company has capital and usually your you don't want someone who's working capital is actually dead because then you are buying cost of capital as well so you want to be sure that the person has enough who I can have a ton of visuals that's why it is fantastic and you want to do that as a balance sheet to look at whether if your Nexus assets as liabilities you give you a positive figure if if the cost if you value get is less about the contrast angle then it means if it's something goes bad with your contract and you want to put into it it is worth is less than the risk you are taking so you may not want to conserve so all these considerations goes into Italy as a pajamas in your your strength is not just in random that process you need a strong financial background you need a strong legal background as well to do so the question generally and for a brief comment is is this new in how people try to beat the procurement system or to infiltrate it and unduly win contracts it's mommy you'd notice that during their conversation at the initial stages he explained how people try to beat the system and a fact that you always leave a trail behind yeah it is something they are not not smart if you have practice for a while you would know all the games vendors play in order to get business right we were talking about yourself it's a bit embarrassing I mean for us as a community while I was watching this I was good imagine like this my head was down and I was singing to myself everybody always ends up hearing people are trying to see that we announced that they are other people who are also interested in and they perpetuated but we carry we build a cut and this has not done as any good okay that is wrong right is it that the procurement process people will try to you know as it were inside that information try to beat the system so if because normally when we check the slate the tax you know compliance and stuff you're also looking for the least evaluated the lowest the one who is proof as at the asked after they have submitted their bit and we are doing a value on yes so you may you may want for supply of items and we are looking for an amount of say 20,000 and then somebody will come be able to do was it 19000 we define yeah we look at the list the lowest evaluate a bit yes which considers every other factor including price okay and we wait them and we score them and that gives you the lowest if I made that better okay thank you to come to a bit more detail about those aspects and you'll have a step ahead because some connection with one particular contract where the the price as you know it does if the suggestion is that the reason they want it could only be that there was an insider who must are giving information to the names entity to go and quote a particular price which was this like one pass was shy of the correct price anybody who could tell beyond that has automatically sort of loss and yes so as as as someone who who was in charge of the finance and economy of this country procurement would have been a major headache because people are awarding the contracts that offering at the MMD is level you may have to do some of the almost of the payment for the bigger contract so what does this revelation tell you well it tells me that a lot of what you know has been done that we still need to do more in the area no sir regulations also in areas like code of ethics you know departments and agencies and let me see the PPE for the alien at the Ministry of Finance anyway so right this is and you would also recall that given a number of issues that were coming up you know the PPA act itself we had been passed you know Ellie I believe early 2000 2003 you know it was one of the numerous many you know laws which I was very keen to bring into the you know the twenties apart I mean 20 V from 2014 we went through so you would say that we probably procurement the banking acts or that year internal details or the GRE and then we passed a comprehensive public financial management which with hindsight maybe would have cooter in the boss took over the whole of the you know public sector is no need maybe an amendment to the public financial management Act and that's not to say that you do not have it in other logs components code and others but I think so long as you have the PFA me which is over action you know at where we have strengthen accountability for spending offices ministers you know down so what I would say that is that this from every development there's a need to look at the existing law regulations and some of it doesn't have to be in a substantive law it could be you know more regulations which is giving a frog that I don't think I'm wrong here and in our case regulations our subsidiary legislation so they have unlike other countries so when we put in see regulations and of course it's you know it has to go through Parliament and all that it has in a better force of law that you do have in other countries where regulations you know and I let me also say with respect to this data usually the point I was made on contrast are often th in order to make room for these startups and others who would then develop and so the velocity refers to you know it's kind of graduated there are contrasting which that obscure not you know bead and distance a second telling me is that usually you score the technical and the financial proposals and most weight goes to the tech purposes okay and it is the weighted average which ends up you know but God is not to say that you know these two aspects of me you know you know cannot be manipulated okay no Clara the the fax as you watch the documentary what would be your comment and their responses or reactions that have come from the presidency from the board of the PPA from the GIPS from the coalition of CSO's which you the CDD also belongs to how should we look at this how to look at it I actually do not agree there are every society that that that progresses always has to take another look at its legal framework I think that we have to look at a legal framework in other aspects but conflict of interest is not one of them I say it's not one of them because now we have we don't have just one law for example the Constitution is not the only law we have different laws so we have the Constitution we have Acts of Parliament we have legislative instrument subsidiary legislation then we have the common law the common law is part of the laws of Ghana and another under the common law we have the doctrines of equity and then we have of course even today even including customary law so we have a range of laws now what happens which are expected a subject of conflict of interest for example the Constitution defines what conflict of interest is it defines what conflict of interest is in their sense that it says that a person must not put themselves in a situation where there are personal conflict affect their personal interest conflicts with the performance of their office it's pretty clear and straightforward so anytime your personal interest conflicts with the performance of your duties as a public officer you know you are in a conflict of interest situation now I don't think it is any Constitution should then go ahead even in green in their constitution the scope of conflict of interest the common law doesn't lock we can go through the Acts of Parliament we have different Acts of Parliament we have subsidiary distillation the common-law is replete on own principles of conflict of interest so if we are really it I think it is our problem isn't that there is a lack of law our problem is is that is just the approach we have adopted which is that sometimes we I always say that sometimes we ever see if laws are prescription manuals or instruction manuals that way you pick it cells like for example I have a manual that tells you how to assemble it phone laws don't work like that if all laws have fundamental principles and at the end of the day you are always going to look back at the fundamental principles where you think there is no Express and provision and now come back actually if you go back to look at the PPA Act itself it has an object and the object of the PPA is including to be transparent and fair to everybody and not a disadvantage everybody so the duty of the board and the CEO at all times is to ensure that the object of the PPA Act is achieved so simple question if you tell the facts that have been assembled when the company was incorporated we know the objects of the that it has to be transparent was that transparency is that is do we achieve the object of the PPA act when we allow for example that if we are a CEO of a public institution you can set up a company and have a financial interest here the interest is clear you have a financial interest because one you are a shareholder shareholders share profits basically so that's a financial interest you I director directors are the minds of the company the other arms legs and minds of the company in the sense that they take decisions for the company and they are paid for the rules that it deeply in the company so you clearly you have a financial interest now back to even the PPA at first of all is it the object of the PPA Act if you look at the objects that we have such a scenario is ours achieve the object or that does it defeat the objects of the company come back to the basic basic law which is the Constitution the articles are clear I think even for us it means conflict of interest was so important to us that it found its way into a fundamental law which is the Constitution so you add those ones together come back even to the criminal criminal act at 29 29 expressly makes it a crime for you to abuse your or your a public office for private gain so anytime you make a private game with abusing your public office you have committed a crime it's a crime straight forward so it's not just conflict of interest there is the issue of crime so I actually can't understand why we as we seem to be suggesting as if this is something no well that is not catered for in a law it is completely catered for in a loan the difference is whether we want to look at the whole gamut of our laws and how we apply the laws as a people or as we've often done we want to come back I say that we seem to think that the solution to our problems is when we have a problem we just want pass a law and then we go away nobody's held accountable I've had this EDD particularly and Doctor Who just wanted to was on Joey yesterday and it does appear that the major concern of the CDD is that the Ghanian particularly public officer does not appreciate the conflict of law situation so conflict of laws of the country but what are you talking about exactly ethical to eat forces which is what you could that you should not put yourself in a situation yes where your interest which is personal conflicts with your office or it's likely to conflict with exactly then we know that the way to to to stay away from this is to make a disclosure we are told or you haven't read from the board or you haven't read what they wrote to mana see also that there was a disclosure and that he did not participate now that is actually that's why I say that if we can't approach laws as if they are instructor manuals now there are certain conflicts of interest that cannot be cured by disclosure because if you allow situations where every type of conflict of interest can be can be secured by disclosure we are going to go into organized crime and why I say we are going to go into the realm of organized crime where it is that now we can all make an agreement so you are all board members right you have a company you have a company I have a company then next time so we do gigs we don't gigs now is that what the Constitution says that we should do is that how to protect the people if we do these gigs how is that how to act in the interest and welfare of the people absolutely not so there are yes one don't put yourself in that situation so in the first place you don't go and incorporate that's what the Constitution says it'll say that you put yourself there then come and now ask make a disclosure you cannot put your you cannot ask ok before I come to that point we must differentiate between a CEO and a board member all the rules that applied to the board member apply to the CEO as well but there are certain differences or certain nuances and very easy to see you he's also a board member I'm coming there he's also a board member it is very important because for example if you are just a board member for example you can actually render professional services sometimes to your company so for example if you are just a board member and you're a lawyer and your company is in court and then you randomly got services in terms of defending a company and all of that you can be paid as a board member if you are a CEO that doesn't apply if you are a CEO you cannot say well I'm the CEO of DIC the company I am the person because we see you you're also in charge of the day-to-day management of the company you are an employee of the company as I being a director you are an employee now it's the case that public servants as employees can render professional services to their particular service where they are offered they are being paid a monthly salary for for their services can then now when do consultancy as well LaMotte you can't be an employee in a particular company and then when you do your job for the company you want to call it something else so apart from being a board member yes all that applies to you as a board member applies to you but you are also an employee so the rules that apply to employees apply to you and I say rule of the tongue is not very complicated rule of the thumb at all points for the board is what is the object of this institution your duty as the board is to manage the the institution through the CEO to achieve the object so you establish the policies you establish the procedures you establish the internal mechanisms that make sure that the objects are achieved so if you don't do that actually and then you now come back and then you say that well how for example you come and say we don't have a code of conduct you're actually saying that we did not do our job so we in the board we did not do our job in the first place and because we do not do our job hey to some extent it's also you know that inability competence is a ground for for dismissal if you don't understand the job of it a board I think that you have an obligation to get understanding including trainings so that we know how to hold one another accountable I think we like so much nobody takes accountability for anything we are always passing the buck and looking for excuses they are usually not legitimate reasons they're just excuses together with you we will interrogate a bit more the questions that you raised putting the facts squarely on the issue of the conflict of interest as particularly that's EDD and the coalition of CEOs who have issued a statement against what has happen are talking about but as a procurement practitioner is it your understanding that at the level of the PPA if you have to be a member of the board if you have to be the CEO you cannot as Clara seems to suggest own a company that you know may have to supply goose or you know provide some services to the states for which a process involving that kind of selection and award may come before you okay so first point is this number one every every human being has a fundamental right to survive and to live and that includes to work to make a living so everybody has a right to have a business the issue is would you be conflicted in pursuit of your personal interests that takes us to the core of corporate governance and what good corporate governance is then the major issue with offering proper governance is what is referred to as the principal agency dilemma where the principle in this case is the state and the agent is the board not the employees now the their fiduciary duty of the agent is to at all times protect the interest of the principle which is the state so anytime the agents own interest or personal interest are at variance with that of the state there is a conflict of interest so if you have a business as a board member and at some point in time your business has to do business with the company you are sitting on it's on this board you are in a conflict of interests tuition there are various mechanisms for dealing with conflict of interest the first step is you need to declare now generally what happens is that you don't declare at the time of the transaction you should have declared beforehand when you accept any appointments that I have this company these are my objects this is what I do if you have done business with a company before you have to state that I have done business with a company before if you haven't done business the company before you have to state that I haven't done with the company before so if at any point in time you there's an opportunity for your business that you are affiliated with you have a personal interest in to do business with the entity that is when you declare that my business is in the process of doing this business and because I have an interest I want to recuse myself now that is supposed to be one of the cures but it is not always possible for that to be the cure because what normally people do is that when they get into positions and they'll be conflicted they go to register General's Department and they remove their name from the list and they remove themselves from the Shahadah and they substitute with someone else but you see what we forget is that that is just the manual aspects there is the emotional aspect what the person be emotionally disconnected it is not possible so there are some conflicts you can't cure because emotionally you can't take the person's interest from there he is only put someone there to be the face but his interest esterday so it is difficult to cure distance so we come to the specific specific situation yes the board cannot absorb itself and I've seen the statement live retinal which tells me that they don't even understand what their role is because one what are they safe for which you are making I think so I've read two statement if issued and the first the second one is trying to expand the first statement to the issues and the bottom line is that they are saying that they are trying to say that it is not our responsibility your responsibility is to direct the offices so in terms of interest it starts from stakeholder it comes to the agents or the principal cause the agents and cars the offices the offices are the people who are doing the day-to-day work you are supposed to provide them so if you don't have a code of conduct it is your responsibility to have given them a code of conduct interestingly when you go to their manuals their regulations when it took the contract administration manual there is a provision in it for conflict of interests which prevents contractors and all that so it is not as if they are not aware that this must be present so why is it that it doesn't cover them and again if you sit on a board and and a board member and I see you so a director or an agent and an officer discloses his interests but the interest comes to you 14 times do you not see something wrong with this comes to you 14 times and you win all question he knows the fact so I'm asking do you win all you don't need to win or okay you ask this to yourself I'm asking being opposition of conflict I'm asking because we need to be fair to the facts 14 times successful six nine not successful two pending okay so when it comes to conflict of interest as well there's another dimension which has to do with insider trading okay now insider trading basically is because you have privileged information you are you can influence decisions to your personal advantage so here is how the process runs an entity needs approval from PPE the letter goes from the entity to PPE address specifically to the head so nobody will see the content and so the head has opened it unless of course his PD opens his letters for him now he sees it and he will now from what I understand the system's Wednesday he would direct a technical team or a due diligence team to do the technical or professional work and make a recommendation he takes that recommendation and he goes to the board and he goes gets them to either approve or reject their when the request is coming the information does that comes includes the names of the companies and it includes the budget also also that is available so it means that at the time he is receiving the request the budget is known to him before this annually every entity professor procurement plan and they itemized all the activities so he knows every entity and its budget and its plan of activities beforehand so if a person and I'm trying as much as possible to deal with the principle not with the person so if the person sitting in the conflicted position has privileged information like this first it tells him that these entities are where the biggest budgets are these are the specific projects that are coming up you can prepare yourself an attack that is the first step so it goes to him it goes to the board the board approves the contractor now goes to tender okay at that point in time if he has an interest whether legal or emotional that information can gets to the vendor and because he has privileged information on the scope and the budget he can tell his proposal to shoot exactly what is needed that would be an disadvantage to the others that is on faith so that defeats the objects of the Act okay now you speak about what gets the board and the board gives approval can we delineate specifically what gets the board um restricted entry and this is what is involved here they access a procurement entity may for reasons of economy and efficiency number one which one is a procurement entity VPP a no thank you the buying entity thank you a procurement entity may for reasons of economy and efficiency and subject to the approval of the board engage in procurement by means of restricted tendering I'm asking what does the board of the PPA a proof do they approve a contract do they approve they don't approve a contract because there's no today a 20-bit they don't approve a bid at a stage thank you so the law says by means of restricted tendering hey if by reason of the highly complex and specialized nature goose wax or services are available only from a limited number of suppliers or contractors B if the time and costs required to examine and evaluate a large number of 10 10 days is disproportionate to the value of goose wax or services to be procured or see if an offer for competitive tendering fails to receive any response after publication the authority may charge blah blah blah so what are they approving at the procurement entity procurement board that we are talking about at a PPA what do they approve okay so they are not just approving a request to use this method so if this method is in the lord and it's approved but that's what the law says no entity that wants to procure the goods or services simply goes to them and says we have a procurement to make but we don't want to make it you know public through the normal process want to use a restrictive tender approve it for us they must not justify why you want to use restrictive tendering and then the board will approve the metal so the board approved a method on the basis of these three conditions first is what you are going to do highly specialized such that we don't have enough people right to do it if it is not highly specialized then it can be rejected too if you look at the time it would take to run the tender process versus the value of the transaction so if it's let's see the value is 5,000 cedis and we have to spend at the sixth hour and cities to run a process then it doesn't make sense so we would shortlist very kutsher the process by using this in this case doesn't apply no or if you have run a competitive process and you didn't get good responses then it allows you to now Zone in the market and find people who you think can pre-qualified them there's a festival and then you can refer when it goes to them because you are supposed to have pre-qualified them they would also have the due diligence team will have to do the same pre-qualification to ensure that yes indeed these people have capacity to deliver this before they will see you can go ahead so you need to meet this if it does not fall under any of these then the default is competitive tendering through their board is supposed to reject so the board is not just looking at is it a method that is in the acts it is let's go a mine right to ask at this point that's what the procurement PPA is approving it's not the bait is not a contract no at that point what they are approving they have not been bits even even even at that point so am i right to ask does giving my right to ask that go away from the default position exact and solve so am i right to ask that because when you are going for the default position the law says you follow the rules who should follow the rules PPA and then it no not PPA and is all black the one advice that's what the law says they must follow part 5 which is the processes that involve yeah it is no PPE yes that one I agree it is the one who is seeking approval for to use the method of restricted tendering so if there are no bids at this point are we really fair to the facts by suggesting what we are suggesting on the board and the PPA if you read the responsibilities of the board we have a number of them including providing technical assistance so where the entity itself is put in a position where they lack capacity their reference point is the PPE so their job is not just to sit there and so don't mind because you want to chip in on this one you can start from that point for me and we are looking for beyond a Miss Aegean in watching beyond him hidden in watching a day I must add that beyond he him facing the processes that have now you know being and be unfolding calling on the board also to take I'd have to be dissolve or to take some sanctions and be investigated and all is it rather the entity tender which when they get the approver go to now invite the bits evaluate the bits and determine who is qualified that we might be looking at on the PPE board well with knowledge I have of this I would be surprised if the committee set about residency that's not good entity level the reason being the world of the contracts starts with entities and a number of entities from what I read in the media way involved so you would have to find out how come you know P P likely connection to to the myths and number of you know agencies you know that's into you know Chan out you know and it may therefore go to the point it made some internal you know a mess so over here you see that this office of the special prosecutor or whoever wants to investigate anything the real place to go it's those who receive the tenders evaluated the tenders and and give the award and not the PPA and its board well I'm speaking from a professional perspective you know like no details if I'm given a job to do I don't just look at you know I follow the trail sauce all right the sauce and I think that if it's as I said I we've you know very much surprised you know if you know the the link that's not good at to find out what because you want to kill I believe the work of the community the work of the poster kids shrug they're from they familiar with the work with Trajan others have done in the past they will definitely look because I look at that process that's often where the process begins you know and three there's been an abuse of process it's starting you know I didn't steal ever so most likely to be common but back to the board which is where I wanted to I think we all agree that what you read is the exception the default position is competition open for a number of people to death on a contract and that I believe professional race is a higher level of standard even when it gets you know to the board so I believe that what some of the entities are say is for the board to be here to a higher level of standard I don't know if that means it's done dismissal or whatever but the fact that it seems to from again what I've read it seems to affect you know restrictive in norton brain so sourcing and my mind a public discourse you know well it's got economy public financial protection protection of public funds the most common tree is also sourcing the most complimentary is on the street eaten right you know what is the context in which you know I'd say that if I that is one of the not the only one the other prime motivations for even improving the law and then regulations to make sure that you know you go down to codes of conduct and other you know levels so we are dealing with an issue which I think as I said it's bigger and and if you make clever and briefly again by your understanding because this entity falls under your ministry when I'm talking about you as when you were finance minister earlier I was telling cognate that I have sat on an entity tender and the invasive education whenever and yes as their lawyer but I don't claim to understand it as much as they do as as professionals so what's your understanding what is the role of the PPE ms board when do they come in where they at the PPE is functioning I think many laws are spelt out as a collision object of the authority or the other authorities to harmonize the process of public procurement in public service to secure judicious economic and efficient use of state resources in public procurement and abroad function is abroad when it goes in detail to the functions you can see it's a very long one and normally at these points there's a technical input right we can say it has broad oversight right protection or republic based and it has some oversight about it what you already being when you good it before the PPE you go as a ministry a department or an agency where you have what is called the tender entity okay or entity tender and the entity and it's tender committee you go and say I want to buy this cup but I want to use a restrictive tender process give me approval to use that process correct at that time nobody has sent in a bit there would be a list of companies because these are the ones if you can give you what you want for a second my audience can I run you through that - yes you do okay yeah so what happens is that let's see let's use the routes ministry there is the need to build a road for Chamba somebody will make a requisition the requisition there must be a budget for that requisition to be approved then it will go to the procurement unit we would whether we're famouser they would wear a budget in aspect yes they will work with the engineers to design the route and build the quantities then procurement will have to do the tender at that point they will decide should it be competitive because that is the default for whatever reason if we decide that maybe for expediency emergency whatever we country we don't want to go competitive so we want to use restrictor tender the axes that go and get approval now when you are a question for approval you need to tell the PPE that for these reasons I can't do competitive tendering so I want to use restrictive tendering and I want to use these people and I have pre-qualified these people so at the entity level if they have done their pre-qualification and pre-qualification is not just to say that give me your company registration document and that is it if you do diligence you go to registration and you find out who are the shareholders and all that goes into enter you can now lift and see who is this individual so Douglas let's tie in the fact in a situation where the addendum buttons company is getting addendum what in AJ's company they're just all the lead weddings around Iran is getting a route contract one of the first things because it is restricted tendering to look for its question of expertise yes this company is formed in 2017 yes with no track record yes of having built a road so at the entity level where they did the pre-qualification they would have to have disqualified it is that correct of course because part of the processes which are also listed listed in the act is is that they must show demonstrate that they have equipments they have engineers keepers now so you have to state who your key personnel are they can't go further to take the assertive kids confirm that they are indeed qualifying okay so there's a detail if the process was influenced or compromised if you at the entity level entity level yes that's where whatever - that is where it should have been stopped but if assuming the entity that they have capacity to do all this should be presented to Authority the authority has a due diligence team the name is due diligence team right they are supposed to do due diligence so they should have found this out okay and if they had found us out it should have been in their report and he nodded the due diligence team is his team is his team he set it up that are opposed to him okay he's not required by a lot to set it up but he said he said it appears okay so he so is it clear to you that the Santa Maria projects the works and housing ministry earmarked 2 million for that project his company one day bid with 1 million nine hundred and ninety nine thousand six hundred and forty five yes so it was three hundred and ninety nine and six there's 55 specialists and shots or close the budget okay when you have something like this as an experienced procurement person your antennas always go up how is he so close because what happens is it assumed it was competitive and there were ten companies you always find out that if it's a fair market price new cluster around a certain figure that's right then you have out lies the outliers will be those who are far above or far below okay not worried if you experienced enough when you see the far above a fabulou it tells you that they understand the scope very well so we are not looking at a position do you want to do a dividend see those who are suggesting oh they could have taking the contract and giving it to whoever I did right in that suggestion it's what here it is really contentious management they ought to confirm that you have the expertise you have the money and all of that and they qualify them and push them through it is not done in in contrast all the contracts for is it 18 to 80 percent yes it is not done and the contracts management and I'm sure if you will pick the ministries own contracts you find out that they'll they'll be a provision that says that you cannot assign of it or whatever to a third party without a prior approval of the by entity so the fact that they I've been trying to assign it without a prior approval is a material breach of the agreement which makes them the contract voidable I'm saying on this this because he because this is this area just one one minutes and then I get I get my guess back in the other guys backing the question is so it is clear that there is complicity there it was all complicit and that's and that you cannot it may be difficult to find how he may have influenced the process for his company to get the contract but it is they it happened it has happened yes and you see when they do the investigation and don't forget the OSP the Attorney General and surety have the powers that allows them to go deeper okay investigations of this kind they can go to the extent of taking your phone call records and the company's phone call records and see the number of times there's an interaction between them what distance would establish so if you say you don't have an interest here all these things would establish whether you don't have an interest about to be I see a lot of communication thank you so what is it about so Clara and the occupy Ghana actually says not only conflict of interest but conflict of duty and they are saying that all contracts that may have been won by companies associated with the head busted that all should be audited is that the way to go okay I I like to separate the issues okay for me complicate it is conflict of interest complete of Duty is complete of a conflict of interests okay because it means that you you have you have you are kind of conflict or whether to give - conflict of interest now I think we have to look at we have to delineate the issues separately so that we can look at them comprehensively the first level is he talked about restrictive tendering if we are going into there for example they would have first come to ppl to ask that we want to do restrictive tendering should we do it it cognize that correct yes and then ppl will say yes do it now the law provides instances where PPA should be able to say yes which means that if those circumstances do not arise PPA should have said no that's all we read out exactly so there is that bit of it but even before we come to that bit of it there is the general bit and the general bit here is that an employee of our company has a company that is bidding for jobs that we I mean within the public domain to do this so to begin with within is that what our procurement process as a country is supposed to be that our employees can do this there's that's a pretty leg which you deal with first then you come back to the now their actual substance of it which is the contracts that have been one where they obviously want when we talk about the issue of if he talked about inside dealer actually they sell also a crime in the sense that because of the that's abuse of office because because you have this office you are privy to this information 63 of the Act clearly prohibits it that shouldn't happen it shouldn't happen and the criminal act as well yeah AB 29 but but people is this in this area will tell you that insider dealing is is it's widespread it doesn't make it right why so what's the suggestion because so we have what we're actually saying the system is really rotting there is not reverse he's giving you the evidence of what the system is not I would say that when we say the system is rotten is it some trees and then phones that I just lying somewhere that'll get rots in themselves so the system is not rotten okay what the issue is is whether the people in the system want to do the right thing or they don't want to do the right thing ROI is like the Bible sometimes you can't justify it with if you want an excuse not to do it even when they like excuse is not legitimate you can still ignore and then give all kinds of excuses why we don't want to do it it doesn't mean that okay it's right so I actually don't get it when we say it we are you really saying that we've been doing the wrong thing all along and so yeah big deal so what's the purpose of the PPA there let's just I mean dissolve the PPA we don't need a people so we shouldn't have one why should we have Appa that we are stylist to your group of CCSS you are saying you don't want any further you know dilution of the process if you stay with the OSP and track no more why I wouldn't I don't speak for the CEOs I'm here in my personal capacity so our keeps my personal views I think if there are other state institutions that have the mandate to look into it I don't see why they shouldn't it's just that how they coordinate efforts is the problem fundamentally I actually have a problem with so the legal problems framework I think we need to look at it's actually the plural deportation of state institutions when we make them conflict and then we have too many people sometimes doing the same thing and then it makes it confusing and all kind of so there's that problem I think a more effective way is first it is dishes to be able to collaborate this institution cybozu quality should be able to collaborate because they all have one client the people of Ghana so if we are all interested in protecting the people of Ghana I don't see why we cannot collaborate so yes in this situation I don't expect you I don't think it would be good and prudent for each state institution to be individually looking at this but there's nothing wrong with all the state institutions collaborating so for example yoko has expertise in ABCD the OSB has explicit expertise in ABCD even if the OSB is leading it there's nothing wrong with the OSB asking the eoq oh that you have expertise in ABCD can you can I have access to your expertise to solve this problem so in short all the state institutions can collaborate okay so when this we just didn't have duplication and okay other aspects of it okay quickly he talked about the objects of the company so now what is the object of the TDL if for example your object is that you can execute a contract it's not the same as I want to sell contracts so there's also that bit this is the disclosures that that came up and although that's when when you go in deeper into the entities it should we should all want to know what are the objects of the TD element this covering company but it will have stated objects in these regulations what I do object clearly on the face talent discovery will not be qualified for some of the jobs you have seen exactly know when it comes to business registrations the name can take the form of the objects or can be completely different so the father has Got Talent discovery doesn't mean that it has anything to do with talent development and talent discovery but their name just like you can call it TDK and you are going okay but after that the company registered general actually has a discretion where she thinks your your name is misleading to not allow the Institute yes what are the likely outcomes okay so there they are different level was the worse than he's likely to suffer I'm the West that he's likely to suffer it not just with our group but also with chattin instead of petitioners applying you key because that is where we take a certification from and we have a code of conduct on would levels right so at the six level that our code of conduct sees here that as a member I will maintain the highest standards of integrity in our business relationships by rejecting any business practice which might reasonably be deemed improper by never using my authority opposition for my own personal gain by ensuring that the information I given a course of my work is accurate and not misleading by striving for the worst is likely to suffer so there was this likely to suffice that the Institute could revoke his certification and a certain for assess that he's a fellow he is one of the few people who chatted in Ghana he chatted in the early 1980s wonderful profession wasn't even wrong okay thank you what's wrong and that's not a break what should happen well what should happen and in the hierarchy of doing things the legal which is all professional posts below without exception have you know even ethics committees you know and arrests and you know that was a point I was going to be but I think his comedy you know adequately let me also just you know states that we are talking about a specific issue the license is also where you could give pricing guidelines if I have a budget so if I know what I want to buy you know I don't want to waste time at a valuation level you know with you know fishing and all that so I might give some pricing a llama if you know and that's that itself is also on the issue of disclosure again let me also say that we we are dealing here with you know procurements and decent they we have instances you deduce the way see enemy who has a practice accounting legal you know often gets the permission of the speaker right or administer gave the permission of say the facility for staff to practice and that is within a certain limit you know within the fact that the middie issues that may come say to Parliament to your ministry or whatever which you know some go to the extent of putting their the occupations in trust right in trust you know what yeah yeah public offices we don't want it has to do with you know businesses management you know and others so the issue we are we are discussing now has a wider you know application I think that we need to look beyond just the procurement and that's why I said to the sense that this particular issue estate has to do with public finances you know then we need to strengthen but I do agree also with the point that was made at often the guidelines given me giving examples you know so the law the regulation is not it no but if I country tax practice for example beyond that the the tax law and the regulations the guidelines that GRE of in issues goes to specific examples so for example if you say that you know there's a law that says you are blocking you know we have to block you know input tax credits fo for v8 if I'm a good my favorite area it may give you a specific example what used to pertain and what you know so I didn't a sense which I you know and though the fact that we should look beyond and get specific you know examples from guidance office all right so we are getting to the next segment but very in 30 seconds Clara those who are saying the president could have done more than he has done addict correct career sucked him straight forward to be able to answer that I need to have seen the letter of appointment of the CEO which I haven't seen so I am unable to the only request I would make is that I think the contents of the appointment letters of CEOs CEOs should be public documents the public point by the president includes the power to disappoint yes but I wanted a big deal under the PPA at what it says is that you when you are going to this he's terminated in accordance with his letter of appointment which then means that how you appoint you you dismiss him has to be contained is what is contained in this missile yes not exactly termination this missile extermination yes but this missile for wrongdoing must go through a process it depends it really depends of the constitutional provision that you can only dismiss those before take actions against them with just cause we have the there are there so there must be a reason yes is there everything the president should have just gone ahead to say get out the Constitution there is a reason only but there is a reason but sometimes with respect to the dia for dismissal it depends so I haven't seen his letter of appointment and the app says that how you terminate him or their grounds how you turn it in is determined by his letter of appointment so yes I can see that now they saw special yes you may also want to now go through the normal process which is that you have a committee to you give him opportunity to behead you invite him and then you put the facts before him there is that right to hear dismissal and omission he responds and after that if you are not satisfied okay the last point you said you wanted so I said wait for it one if you look at the fact that the guy the money just said that there are people that BP there's a key point you said that you they need to go and deal with that aspect because it was bribery and corruption then the next thing is going forward we need two things to be done first we need procurement practice to be regulated we need just like Institute of Chartered Accountants and give the architects all right we need a regime in regulated okay and we can thank you thank you very much and we take a break when we return who deal with the matters involving the bank the financial institutions men's gold and the clean up having come to an end what's next [Music]

Channel: JoyNews

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Keywords: Ghana Political Issues, ghana Politics, Matters Arising in Ghana, NPP, CPP, PPP, National Budget, Chieftancy, Ghanaian lawyers, Economy, Constitution, Election, campaign, youtube, joy news, newsfile, myjoyonlinetv, myjoyonline.com

Id: 0St9-TpYO8M

Length: 69min 41sec (4181 seconds)

Published: Sat Aug 24 2019