Christian Nationalism? What In The Great Commission Is It?

when the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment he replied you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength so why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this everything to do with how the Bible and specifically or along with that what we point to as the foundation of Faith which for most Christians unfortunately is the Bible we need to do better we need to love God with all our hearts and stand unashamedly on the rock of his word we need to love the Lord with all of our souls and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from him we need to love the Lord with our minds and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world we need to love the Lord Our God with all our strength and face the work of building a life-giving god honoring culture join us for 10 days at the runner Academy for cultural leadership as we consider how the gospel influences all of life and culture and the role that we have to play in applying foundational Christian thinking to every area of life [Applause] [Music] this is the Academy I am Eli Ayala of revealed apologetics and I will be bringing a six-part series on presuppositional apologetics what is this called the apology Academy it's just called The Academy okay what's up everybody my name is Pastor Jeff Durbin and you're watching Collision today I'm going to be interacting with an atheist on Tick Tock so here we go unsupervised and unhinged welcome back to coltish the aftermath [Music] hey everybody welcome back to another episode of ask me anything so you are watching apologia radio's after show exclusively for All Access [Music] must stop I don't want to rock the boat I want to sink it are you gonna bark all day little doggy or are you gonna bite yeah delusional's okay in your worldview I'm an animal you don't chastise chickens for being delusional you don't chastise pigs for being delusional so you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay it doesn't really hurt you hung up on me [Applause] what desperate times call for Faithful Men and not for careful men the careful men come later and write the biographies of the Faithful Men lauding them for their courage go into all the world and make disciples not go into the world and make buddies not to make corrosives right don't go in the world make homies right disciples I got I got a bit of a jiggle neck [Music] that's a joke Pastor when we have the real message of Truth we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not [Music] let me know [Music] Paul a slave of Messiah Jesus called to be an apostle set apart for the gospel of God which he promised beforehand through His prophets in the Holy scriptures concerning his son who was descended from David according to the Flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the spirit of Holiness by his resurrection from the dead Jesus Christ Our Lord through whom we have received Grace and apostleship to bring about The Obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ amen As Romans chapter one y'all welcome back everybody to apologia radio this is the gospel heard around the world you can get more at apologiesstudios.com a-p-o-l-o-g-i-a-studios.com paulogeostudios.com go there for brand new amazing content right now um if you're all access you make everything we do possible over it's like seven million people in the last month have heard the gospel been taught been equipped through evangelism videos videos on theology sermons all kinds of stuff debates through just our YouTube platform alone and you are a part of that so all access Partners and Ministry with us you make that monthly engagement with the globe the world you make it available to the world so thank you for 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year um pretty much and so uh we're doing that we have a million things going on with apology at church all the evangelism and amazing brothers and sisters apology at church so active in the Public Square and uh just Lots going on with end abortion now got a new bill in right now in the state of Alabama and so pray for that that gets given to a committee and then it gets a hearing uh Missouri last week and of course our bill was once again shut down in hearing by the pro-life establishments we're working on content right now for you so you can see that and that can all be exposed and so super busy right now we are also in the midst of responding to uh thoughtful Faith uh Mormon Channel and uh their uh face plant uh in regard to uh trying to critique a uh video a kind of online tract with the gospel for Latter-Day Saints and we are going to complete that but we have more important business to deal with today we're going to be dealing today with the question of Christian nationalism and uh our good friends that we love dearly and respect highly uh Josh Bice Virgil Walker and the Gang over at G3 we love those guys we serve the Lord together with those guys um I cannot express the level of gratitude and respect and honor that I have for Josh Bice and for Virgil Walker and I mean that I love those men dearly yeah solid men Virgil's my guy and we fought some significant battles together and we will continue to Lord willing we're going to continue to fight some significant battles um that's a good way to lead into this conversation I think actually let's give everyone a background uh first of all we've done stuff with Virgil we've done stuff with Josh um we love G3 James uh our fellow Elder um is speaking for G3 this year so our diving into this discussion is because it's actually an important discussion to have because it intersects with so much that we've been saying for um over a decade here at apology a radio and apology a church and so so much so much of this conversation really ultimately lands on some discussions that we are always having in terms of the authority of Jesus Christ the scope of the Gospel of a kingdom uh the rule of Jesus Christ uh the again the authority of Christ and and the the law of God the mission of the church the mission of the church theonomy uh God's law over man's law like all of it intersects so I'll just say at the out front um at the outset uh Josh Virgil the gang over at G3 we love you we highly respect you I think Josh is a is a is a better man than I'll ever be so I'll put that on the table he's he's an incredible uh Pastor incredible leader and I genuinely mean that and I uh I'll just I'll make sure I put this down so everyone understands this when we got a bill in the state of Georgia for equal protection uh was able to talk with Virgil and Josh and I got to tell you right now Josh not only took it on in the state of Georgia and led in that effort to get that bill of equal protection for All Humans from Fertilization in and established but whenever I needed something all I needed to do is just make sure a message got to Josh message and personally call him and he jumped and he dove in head first to make sure that he sacrificed for that bill and I will never ever forget that he's a man that is trustworthy he is bold um he stands on the word of God in the authority of Jesus Christ um and so I just want everyone to hear that he is uh he's been one of the greatest allies that we've had as pastors and as a local church when we're trying to get these bills in he took his role seriously in the state of Georgia he continues to take it seriously and he can be trusted to do what he says and do it boldly and to not shrink back and uh so that's the first thing I'll say the next thing I'll say is I don't have any jealousy at all for the term Christian nationalist I don't want to wear it to be honest with you I don't know what it really means there's so many different people describing what it means so for us this is not like us Christian nationalists versus G3 uh I actually think that Josh and Virgil and the guys in the recent recent episode ask some very good questions I think they asked meaningful questions they did it in a respectful honorable brotherly way um it was it was very well done I appreciate them very much and so this is an apology a radio the Christian nationalist versus G3 this is actually apologia radio the post-millennial lesson the theonomous who have consistently said these things and taught these things and we're looking into this conversation going hmm you're all basically getting around the edges of what yeah we've been saying and the Puritans were saying uh for since it's as old as the hills the discussion is as old as old as as old as the hills and it has this title Christian nationalists which no one seems to really have a definition what that means so really this is just us the descendants of the Puritans theologically the uh post-millennialists the theonomous the uh Disciples of Greg bonson um uh basically engaged in this conversation saying hey everybody I think what you're really all talking about is you're talking about post-millennialism and theonomy that's that's kind of what you're really talking about so maybe engage with that content content that's been laid down historically by Christians historically in the last hundred years specifically by someone like Rush Dooney who I don't agree with on everything Dr Greg bonson I generally do except he was wrong on baptism Nobody's Perfect um and um but that's really what we're at is is what we're engaged in this discussion saying hey what you are all talking about is just basically intersecting with the post-millennialism and the theonomy discussions so let's let's engage it with that and I will shut up now after I say with my brother Josh and Virgil and the Gang over at G3 what I want to say is look these dudes get it that's the main thing so many things in their podcast they go look they got it of course they got it they're solid Christians they know the word they know the authority of Christ they don't want to pretend neutrality they've got it but each of us is telling a story like we're telling a story about the about the future of the world uh the gang over at G3 is telling a story about the future of the world what I would say is no you guys got like the the main plot you guys you guys got it but you've got some plot holes like you're the story you're telling has some plot holes and so what we're trying to do is actually engage with some of the good questions they asked they ask great questions and they they're basically saying like we affirm these essential things but we have questions about like what does that mean in these areas and so what I want to say is hey praise God for this discussion because it needs to be had uh you guys have heard me say a hundred times like the one there's one area there's many areas but there's one specific area like throughout church history three that we've never had a moment of reformation in like real Focus like let's get all the energy into it and really hash this out what does the scripture say and that's in the area of uh theonomy uh the law of God really yeah to to law of God in applications his culture and Society we've had fights in history praise God and we've won praise the Lord um over the nature of God the Trinity Christ and the god this person his gospel when we get into the Reformation area you're talking about big fights that occurred over like what is the ultimate Authority solo scriptura you had big fights over the issue of Grace like how gracious is Grace like how how really gracious is Grace that's really what the Reformation was about it was about solo scriptura and the grace of God and salvation and and those were the the things that were really being hashed out and like let's drill down on these but we've never had in the history of the church this massive Reformation movement around like well let's get specifically down to like how how do you apply obedience to Christ yeah in in the world all around us and so that's that's what I'm going to say it's a good conversation to have I love love love Josh and Virgil I know John's listens to the show so uh shout out to to Josh and and Virgil we love you guys and and um I can't say enough good things about you so yeah I mean like you said I don't even know they talk about Stephen Wolf's book I don't I don't even I haven't read I don't know what he says we're not claiming that if anything I think we would fall somewhere probably in between the two um but like you said it's just what we've been saying this whole time so it's nothing different um but listening to to that show we're going to play clips from it just and Zach and I were talking about this the other day it's like there just seems to be a lot of just it's conversation in the weeds right there's a lot of this like peripheral past each other yeah and so like I mean if we even if we were to break down this entire show which we're not going to there's so much going on in that and just that one hour-long conversation um and so yeah like we were talking I was like here's where where I'm seeing things is obviously eschatology has a major role in this conversation and they acknowledge that and they acknowledge that um and but I think the you know we're always trying to go back to like what's the main root issue and it's by what standard right like every conversation we're gonna have it's by what standard um and I think that um proper uh got ordained uh jurisdictions governmental roles need to be established because there's a lot of like you said talking past one another not defining those roles and then it's like we're not even having a meaningful conversation at this point because we haven't established what this role should look like um and so that was kind of my initial thoughts I would say otherwise but my concern is it seems like they gonna pull that line a little bit I kind of want to play with some of the aspects of two Kingdom theology which we'll get into but anyways we're gonna we're gonna say like look we love Josh Virgil guys we love all of them we respect them the Great Men of God but what we're going to say of course because we're brothers look I think you're being inconsistent here right and that's that's okay to say like they would say it about maybe us and there's as Christians we need to be able to say that graciously to each other but that's what we're really saying is it's like look like you've got the main point but there's inconsistencies now that are that are flowing out and that's all we're doing is we're saying hey check out that inconsistency we've got right there that's that's an inconsistency because you said at the beginning of your show you said this thing and then later on in the show you say this other thing and those two things don't actually match right but you but you affirm the main thing right exactly right and you embrace the main thing and so we're just going hey brother check out that inconsistency that doesn't really work does it so yeah yeah I think it's just a great time to have the conversation in general like you said the ground has been tilled leading up to this point so far and now I think the events the last two years in particular have really put this on fast forward for sure it's forced the church to really try to understand where the boundaries are between the Spheres of authority and to develop and cultivate a public theology because we really haven't had we haven't had to we've kind of been blessed growing up uh swimming in a water and we don't know we're wet in terms of living in the remnants of a Christian Society and all of this fruit this Capital that we were given by our ancestors these blessings these tremendous blessings of living in a um you know a nation that was so heavily impacted by the Christian worldview and now that's rapidly dissipating in not just in the last 50 years but in the last 10 years the decline has become very Steep and now we're seeing these things and now we're having to seriously consider and think through okay what does it mean to live faithfully and obediently as a Christian in this generation um where things are shifting and is there a promise that our faithfulness will have an effect yeah yeah and uh the the blessing of the past and Christendom in whatever Nation Christ ruled over and people submitted to Christ and you know ever in every area of that culture the the blessing they had is that they got to assume so many things the assumption is that the Christ is Lord over the government the assumption is is that the King has to obey Jesus yes right there's a limitation on Authority and division of power the covenanters we're having with the King and they're saying of course you're the king of course we'll be good servants of course we're going to obey you as the king but like you have to obey Jesus and the whole discussion of Samuel Rutherford and Lex Rex the law is King that could be said because they were pressing on an understanding of of the authority of Christ in government even in that sphere look you're the government's fear we get that you're the king we get that but you still have to obey the Transcendent law you're not the you're not the law okay right uh Lex Rex the the law is King and so they got to assume all this stuff here we are now with like you know the last vestiges of Christendom hanging around in the west and all the blessings are still kind of like there but it's it's shaky um and now yeah and now the church is having to go okay everyone let's regather here for a second and let's talk about what we really believe and so I someone asked the question like are these guys approaching it um are uh is this show pro-christian nationalism or against it uh the way the best way I can answer that is that we're pro Great Commission and if you believe the Great Commission is not merely wishful thinking but it's actually where the world is going that all the nations are going under the feet of Jesus and that everybody is required to obey Jesus let them that's essentially disciple into Nations teaching them to obey Jesus like if you believe that then what does that Nation look like if like generally speaking like you have a nation where like Reformation has happened or um Revival has happened or yeah and like from top to bottom generally it's all profession of lordship of Christ sure we're we're just gonna say what does that Nation look like in terms of when they start actually legislating because what is legislation is the imposition of morality all right let's let's make sure that we get away from the whole like modern Evangelical local wishy-washy squishy like I'm a pastor I don't get involved in politics well then you're failing sorry politics engages in legislation which is the imposition of morality and if legislation is the imposition of morality because it is what is legislation it's saying you ought to do this and you ought not to do that that's an ought we're saying You must do this you must not do that it's morality and if legislation is about morality then the question must be asked does King Jesus have something to say about morality and really this question comes down to do you really believe that Jesus is king of kings and Lord of lords today is it something is it something in the future he's going to attain or is Jesus ruling and reigning on that davidic Throne now as king as Paul says in First Corinthians 15 is he Revelation 1 5 the ruler of the kings of the Earth today reminder just a reminder humble reminder that uh that was said by the Apostle John uh during the reign of Nero that he's the ruler of the kings of the Earth today I mean if you really believe Psalm chapter 2 that we are that the nations are Christ God's going to give them to All to Jesus The Inheritance is the Earth the end of the Earth if you believe that all the kings of the Earth are supposed to obey Jesus and kiss the sun then what does the nation look like that does that like how does it legislate exactly like if if the legislators are actually God's Deacon if that's their God's servant and they're supposed to actually serve the true God then what does it look like when they do that's that's all this means so when someone says are you a Christian nationalist I'm like I don't even know what that means if you're asking me do I believe the nations are coming to Jesus and they're all going to be they're all going to obey Jesus I'm going to say well that's just a Great Commission like why is that confusing to you why are you surprised that Christians believe that the nations are all going to come to Jesus and Obey him that's just the Great Commission and I don't believe the Great Commission is wishful thinking I think the Great Commission is absolutely happening and will come to a climax and summation and uh you read the verse at the beginning of the show yeah I mean Romans 1 and then Paul bookends it in Romans 16 and what's the command of the Eternal God according to his gospel the preaching of Jesus Christ and the making the disclosing of this hidden Mystery that was kept hidden for ages long ago and what is that to bring about The Obedience of Faith yeah well where everywhere everywhere where Jesus has Authority which is that extends geographical boundaries institutional boundaries it transcends it transcends the offices of authority that men and women hold um everywhere well because the question is asked and this can be this can be brought out with numerous texts from the New Testament but also the Old Testament the question is asked somewhere in the podcast and I don't know if I haven't queued up but like where in the New Testament is this taught uh everywhere let's start with the Great Commission itself how about Paul's explanation his systematic explanation of the Gospel like you brought out he book ends Romans Romans 1 and 16 with The Obedience of Faith among all the nations for the sake of his name which is an iteration I mean I mean really a repeating of Genesis 49 49 10 what the descendant of Judah is going to accomplish in the world Shiloh is coming and to him shall be The Obedience of the Nations that's the goal of the Gospel of the Kingdom the nations are coming to obey God so all we're asking is this question what does it look like when a nation obeys Jesus Christ do they obey him Faithfully are they required to obey him Faithfully in every area individually Family Church State I would argue yes and if you say do you really believe that I would say what is all authority in heaven and on earth mean to you and what does it mean for Jesus to be king over Kings today are they actually supposed to obey the king over them and if they are to obey the king over them then what does it look like to obey the king over him now here's I know we're getting ahead of ourselves but this is like if you guys want to say like encapsulate what you're saying is an inconsistency okay so Josh is so faithful I mean I could call him message him and say hey this is happening in Georgia we need your help can you let people know this is going on can you show up and and we saw each other in Georgia for a meeting with like over 100 pastors and everything else and he was there so faithful and so hard at work Josh recognizes hey look I'm going to say to the legislature you have to obey God repent of this Injustice and establish justice in the area of the preborn with equal protection he just believes that amen as much as me as much as us yeah he believes it and not only believes it are you ready he fought for it and he continues to fight for it so if you were to ask Josh Josh why are you doing that on what basis says who by what Authority Josh would say because King Jesus says so he goes to the legislature now and he says You must obey Jesus Christ and stop the slaughter that's happening right now equal protection why because God says in his word that's what Josh would say now where else does Jesus have something to say right exactly does he have something to say to the legislature in the area of gender bending sexual immorality theft all those things yeah we would say so so it's a good conversation to have because Josh already adopts no King Jesus has something to say he has all authority you must obey Jesus here we're saying fantastic it has to go everywhere now um yeah and can I say one more thing and then we'll just play the clip and then um I had an interview the other day with somebody and uh they brought up a good point that we affirm in this whole area that we're dealing in with Ein and equal protection bills across the country We Believe with all of our hearts and what our nation needs is a heart change they need regeneration there must be there must be like a Great Awakening another one uh the pouring out of God's spirit by his gospel the only thing that's really going to fully transform a nation is not the law it's going to be new hearts and a change that comes from the gospel people have to have the spirit of God in them and love God's law to be truly transformed and truly meaningful so someone says hey you know what all the stuff you guys are doing with equal protection right now look the deal is you got to recognize that the only way this is really going to happen is is through regeneration and transformation of the culture via the gospel I'd say yeah that's why we're doing it under the banner of Christ and with the gospel everywhere we go because that's what we fundamentally believe but you know what on our way to a transformed culture in society I'd still like rape to be against the law yeah and I'd still like murder to be against the law so like yeah are are we hoping for a day when the culture is transformed via the gospel and people don't love theft they don't love rape They Don't Love Murder yeah we're hoping for that we're fighting for that via the gospel that's the only World transformation that's going to work however on the way there it's the duty of the church to be prophetic in the area of justice and say to the magistrate you're a God's Deacon you must stop the slaughter you're God's Deacon you must criminalize rape you're God's Deacon you must criminalize theft we're still along the way supposed to be prophetic and say to Herod it is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife right a prophetic voice coming from the people of God that say you must obey Jesus Christ that's all we're saying as if he's supposed to obey that even if he doesn't profess Christ or is regenerate or if he's acting sinful you still have to obey right I'm just gonna add one quick thing going back to something you said a second ago is we've taken this from Joe boot but um pilot politics is nothing more than legislative morality and the question isn't are we going to legislate morality it's whose morality are we going to legislate and that's what you want to say by what standard that's where I'm aiming there is who whose standard are we legislating and like I see even in the comments you know you see people like it's like you you just want a theocracy you know it's like look here I already live in one we're in one the problem right now is the goddess Demas yeah right and we're saying we don't want demons as I got you know we want the the Protestant Triune guy of the Bible as the god that's where we're trying to get to so well here's the deal ready unless you're a nihilist yeah everything's a theocracy yeah unless you're a nihilist because nihilus would be like uh you know nothing matters there's no real Ultimate but if you recognize no there's there's an ultimate and you must uphold Justice and there are there is morality then it's like Luke said it's in the question of who SE morality and what ultimate and and Demas right now is the people in the United States that say we have decided and we are the ultimate and it goes with how we feel and so there's a theocracy what is a theocracy it's it's the imposition of an ultimate right just call it an ultimate like where Christians are saying that Jesus Christ is the ultimate he's the king of kings and you're saying in North Korea that Kim Jong-un is the ultimate yeah he's the god over that system and in all these uh Muslim states out there they're saying no Allah is Ultimate and in the United States of America today they're saying Dimas is Ultimate so again unless you're a nihilist you're going to have a Theocratic Nation it you may not profess it to be Theocratic no we don't believe any Gods but you believe in an ultimate you're saying there's an ought here you must obey and here's the question who says you oh so you're the ultimate so the theocracy happening now is the Biden Administration and the people of the United States of America they're deciding what's moral what's right what ought to be done what ought not to be done so theocracy is inevitable unless you're a nihilist yeah okay and so we're there now so everyone's got to accept the fact that if you say there's an ought and an ultimate that someone must obey you are in some sense arguing for theocracy it's not a question of whether you'll have a God but which God yeah exactly theocracy is unavoidable but we would say no to an ecclesiocracy that is a church Run State yes there's a difference let's get into it yes here we go all right here's my my brother Josh it's different influences from the woke ideologies that are being pressed upon the church today so how do we deal with that and so we have some people that say well you know we have to have a manly robust muscular form of Christianity that says we're going to stand in the Public Square and we're gonna just fight it out you know with all of the the leaders within the Civil realm and we're gonna just basically you know claim dominion over over every aspect of of our culture and what we can agree with on simple terms is that a Christian should actually speak to the the Civil sphere absolutely in the Public Square we should actually speak to as John the Baptist did to Herod right and say you should not have your brother's wife we should actually do as John Piper did and speak to the president of the United States when he's celebrating the the slaughter of of innocent babies we should actually do what John MacArthur did as he modeled in California as he speaks to the governor in an open letter so we should we should do this we should do what we did during covid and we should actually say no that's not the jurisdiction of the state and the church has the right to actually gather and worship because this is the realm and the sphere where God says that we are to obey him and so you can't speak to this so this is uh important Josh has it has it that's it that's totally it uh Josh there sounds like your standard fare post-millennialist and the animist he does they would be saying we'd be saying the same things but I just want to I just want to make a note of something and then continue to play this um Josh acknowledges because he's right he's solid he's solid as they come acknowledges look you bring the law to Bear against Herod and say God's law forbid you specifically in the Torah forbid you to do what you're doing so what are you assuming there when you say that to the the ruling authorities around you as the church you're assuming that the ruling authorities have to obey God right right and when he says MacArthur um is writing a letter to the governor saying you don't have a right according to God to do what you're doing he's saying to the governor that you must obey God rather than men you must obey Jesus Christ God's law that's what MacArthur was saying is that God's law counts and you must obey it and Josh is acknowledging there that the church's prophetic role is to the state that sphere you must obey God now here's the deal ready we're all saying the same thing yeah that's all that's it that's a summary of a theonomic practice however I think where the discussion gets interesting where there starts to be divergences okay so if the state if that's fear the civil government has to obey Jesus does that enable them to then enforce um compliance right obedience to God's law on unbelievers we do it all the time we do it today so for example here's what they would say I'll lay it out yeah because they say you know we're Baptists we believe in of course we love this nation the First Amendment you know the separation of church and state all of that and therefore one thing the king cannot do is compel religion he can't compel worship and so what we would never want to say is that the state imposes professions of faith upon the populace we don't believe that that's not how people get saved you're only saved through responding to God's gracious effectual call in the gospel by his spirits um you cannot impose um confessions of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior that must come through the gospel however um we want the state today to impose the law of God upon society when we say that we want murder against the law when we want rape against the law and if you ask well look why well we would say because Yahweh says yeah because the Triune God of scripture lives and he's spoken that's why so this again we need to get we just need to be able to say it with boldness and confidence and stop playing around the edges of it yes Christians want God's law imposed upon Society yes we do you do don't pretend like you don't do you want people to be allowed to copulate openly with animals in the streets and if you say well no I wouldn't want that by what standard go ahead try try to give me an argument outside of the revelation of God that says that people should not be able to copulate with animals try and do it here's here's one better ready try and do it with a verse from the New Testament uh oh uh oh try and do it from the New Testament you're gonna have to go to the Torah to get the Revelation from God against people having sex with animals which let's be honest as Christians when we say shouldn't have sex with animals why are we saying it because God says that's not God's order God's spoken explicitly on this so Christians do want God's revelation of his instruction of his Torah of his law to be imposed upon Society it's not a question because Josh wants it too he fought with me in Georgia he fought with us in Georgia he wants it too it's a question to what extent and that's where Josh and Virgil in the gang um actually ask good questions they asked some good questions so this is I think this is better because I like how Josh did this he did this more as a conversation as a brother that's why I appreciated him so much and I just want to say to anybody I I have I don't do Twitter I feel like it's a dumpster fire I know we have to start doing it now because it's probably the freest it is it's the freest platform there is now um so we're gonna have to invest more on Twitter but but I haven't but I did hear from solid Godly wise men that it's like a dumpster fire in this conversation right now and people are being abusive to Josh and I'm going to say if you're being abusive to Josh grow up and uh get some wisdom stop being a knowledgeable fool and knowing a lot of stuff and not knowing how to behave um in a wise way Josh did this and the guys did this and I I think away on this show that Brothers need to do it um asking good questions and saying well I grant this but I'm not so sure about this they did it by asking questions real quick sorry I don't know for we'll get to this part of the conversation or not so I didn't want to lose this thought but um this is a really important conversation because I think it's Scott's the one that he brings it up later he essentially says that that the government should be legislating the moral law the second part second second table Yeah and uh and that's like it that's kind of his argument right and like you just said that's why this is so important it's like okay but there's a lot more going on in the um what about sex with animals yeah exactly what about what about gender what about gender that's exactly right yeah and so that's why we again it goes back to by what standard so we can't just say we're only going to legislate these few items here you know when there's a whole plethora of things outside of that we need to be able to speak to from an objective standard so exactly well I mean he takes his basis for that out of Romans 13 and the summary of the law being love and the list of The Commandments there but remember the Avenger of God's Wrath is the servant of Yahweh right now the servant of some other God right and so therefore the magistrate is required to not only punish public lawlessness but promote the worship of the one true and living God he can't be the servant he can't be the Deacon of the one true God and promote idolatry yeah amen you can't do it not if he's yahweh's servant right you know if he's they all servant or Zeus's servant then that would be consistent but God says that he's the servant of God and he's been established and instituted by God and derives his authority from Yahweh and and the point is is related to that foundational truth and what's truly exegetical about Romans 13 is the conversation that that Josh just grants here it is the duty the church to be prophetic here and go to the government and say no God says and you must obey him it is the duty of the church to go to the government and say you must obey Jesus so it's granted yes the conversation is granted we're all in the same ground again okay let's go when you move forward it's a question of do you have plot holes okay right in your store let's check it yeah we should see specific boundaries and again I think that's where we start to get into some of the differences perhaps but the the real critique that I've seen on social media is that we are like Polar Opposites and we don't agree on all these really big things or that we might Embrace a loser theology right I disagree with that absolutely I I actually reject the idea that that the choices that I have are either uh wolf's version of Christian nationalism or some manby pamby watered-down version of a David French version absolutely of Christianity yeah uh that's that's not those are not the two options that are on the table he's right Virgil's right about that yes uh he definitely Virgil way to go um that's a proper way to defend against that is that that you know here you have this category that category that's it and that's that's true it's just it's just a question of consistency that's all we're saying is a question of consistency because I would say you can also throw in a mix there like between Wolf's position which I haven't read his book but I've seen some stuff and heard some stuff and seeing quotes um and you know you have his and you also have like post-millennialism and theonomy you can throw that in the mix like you know might be another option let's get to 100 Proof puritanism you know let's get to that difference is what you just articulated Josh and that is We believe We ought to stand firm in the Public's Fair sphere we ought to call our governmental leaders to repentance we ought to tell them kiss the sun lest you perish in the way uh we need now what happens when they repent though that's kind of the question there you go uh Brothers that was beautifully said yeah um I've preached sermons on that great usage of some too and and and here's the deal ready if you really believe that if you really believe it and it's the whole the whole package then you're gonna have to get into this discussion of the law of God and what is the magistrate accountable to actually hold to and uh what's he supposed to wield The Sword of Justice based upon um and so you you've already granted the main point we're all Brothers in this we're all unified in this you granted the main point that they the rulers of our day today are required to obey Jesus and where to tell them you are required to obey Jesus so the question then comes ready if I grant what my brother says here you are required to obey Jesus um the question then comes is um the whole way in everything all that I have commanded all that I've commanded and and what happens when the when the ready let's say that you're in a state and like there's this huge the just uh Awakening and all the legislators the majority the vast majority 95 of the legislators in your legislature are all professing Christians and they bow the need of Jesus and they say look we gotta we got a big odd rather than men what kind of laws will they then start legislating and that that's the question what will it what will the state look like when it's connected versus the sun when it kisses the Sun and they obey Jesus and they say you know what Pastor you're right I'm I'm obligated to yield to Jesus Christ so the question is then they start coming to you going all right church tell me what's his word regarding this and that's not the church legislating no that's the church exercising its prophetic teaching role and saying here's what the word of God says and that distinction always existed between the Civil sphere and the ecclesiastical sphere all the way back to the Old Testament but it was the prophetic realm it was the prophets it was the people of God it's the of course carried it through the New Testament Church were the ones speaking the truth and saying here's the standard and pointing to it in a a great counterpart to Psalm 2. because Psalm 2's come up a lot in this discussion we're talking about Kings of the earth breaking apart the the boundaries right the cords that God uses to restrain them right well how do those chords get put back on right scripture has an answer for that um if you read Psalm 149 it says let the high praises of God be in their throats as the people of God right the congregational people of God and the two-edged sword in their hands to execute Vengeance on the Nations and punishments on the peoples to bind their kings with chains and their nobles with Fetters of iron to execute on them the Judgment written so what's the Judgment written what's the two-edged sword it's the word of God that is to be Christ and his claims are to be relentlessly pressed into every area of life including in the life of the magistrate and the text says that that's the honor for all the Godly ones that's the honor that is reserved for God's people the Saints whom he's enlisted to participate with him in the advancement of the Kingdom because that's what that's what it means when the kingdom advances it goes into a territory and the profession becomes Jesus Christ is Lord wherever that's happened you can safely say the kingdom has come there right that's where the kingdom is and so scripture says that the way that those chords of restraint which they wholeheartedly endorse right government has to be limited there has to be demarcations fears of authority they're very limited enumerated powers well how do those restraints get put back on the people of God with the Praises of God in their lips The two-edged Sword in their Mouse bringing to bear this upon them and that's honor that's Glory that's the calling of the church to engage in that that's how it happens the the point of it is this we see the message of Salvation in our culture and in the church in recent history as a message of personal forgiveness and salvation but we've lost the concern that God and His Christ have for civil Injustice in the streets that's the issue and that God answers both problems personal forgiveness and Injustice in the streets with the same answer the Incarnation that's what Isaiah 59 tells us right so Isaiah 53 is the suffering servant and what Christ is going to do when he uh you know lays down his life he's going to justify the men he's going to Bear their iniquity and then we get to Psalm 59 all this Isaiah 59 all this Injustice in the streets and how does God answer he Bears his holy arm and he himself comes down to deal with the problem because he sees that his people are absolutely utterly incapable of accomplishing Justice in the streets so what does he do he Bears his holy arm he enters he takes righteousness as a breastplate for himself and he actually gets to work on making retribution in this Fallen Earth by bringing Justice into the Civil sphere and that's not a second coming prophecy that is a present reality because of where Christ is located now and seated and he guess what has enlisted his people to execute Vengeance on the wicked Heathen Nations by bringing the chains of restraint back on them through the preaching proclamation of the word it's our participation with him in that effort how does it happen yeah it's us partnering with him right his bride his help meet uh so the the challenge the very gracious nudge to my brother here is great okay so we are supposed to tell the Civil Authorities that they are to obey the Sun or they'll perish kiss the son of the parish my challenge is this I'm troubled that if you don't gain some consistency in this area you may get to the point of Gossip Proclamation where the legislature says to you we yield we'll do it we'll obey the son now what and then you look that's what we need to be thinking about you got to start answering those questions because if if you say look they're required to to kiss the Sun or they're going to perish what happens when you get to the legislature that says great we'll kiss him we'll obam now what Pastor is it a prospect in your system that that endeavor will ever be successful that's the key issue is is this all wishful thinking is this just spinning wheels in mud or do we believe it actually is something that Christ is going to accomplish how many verses do you need from the Old and New Testament that say that he is accomplishing it and will accomplish it how about First Corinthians 15 how about every enemy under the feet of Jesus before he comes to to destroy death all enemies under the feet of Jesus before death is destroyed I'll go with that one that he's presently putting all enemies under his feet he's on his throne now that he's ruling now and he must Reign until all enemies are under his feet is uh is our ungodly governments enemies of Jesus Christ is rape and enemy of Jesus Christ is every other Injustice and enemy of Jesus Christ well then it's going under his feet and it's the church that actually is a part of that process of the help meat or the bride of Christ that brings it about as the means through the proclamation of his gospel and his word to the culture in the Public Square to stand against the the denigration that's happening in our society we agree with that completely and I believe this is this is a really important point to make because we agree on so much we agree on the problems we have we grieve over the same denigration of our society and we even strongly agree about standing firm and preaching the gospel and also preaching morality to our culture so there's this there's this large uh segment of agreement the disagreements then go beyond that yeah and when the crit and what we would say is that Christian nationalism wants more than that more than just firmly standing for Morality in our society and I would say yeah I would agree with that in terms of like again this is not identifying as a Christian nationalist but in terms of like the intersection with what post-millennial lesson the anonymous have been saying um is that that's a good point to be made there is that um what do you do beyond the agreement if it actually happens are we just supposed to be saying it because we don't believe that Christ is actually going to be victorious over it not yet because that's the that's the main issue is that do you believe that we're supposed to do it because Christ is going to accomplish it or do you believe that we're supposed to do it and fail now as much as I know that they want to resist the idea of like we're promoting failure and all the rest that kind of is what was just said there is that we're supposed to do it but we shouldn't have any anticipation that it's actually going to accomplish it and one thing one thing too because to the response to that from their side would be well it's for the glory of God why do you need anything else and I would say well yes and amen it is unto the glory of God but here's the thing if it actually happens which we expect it to because we expect the word of God not to return void but to accomplish the purpose for which he sent it because of a Great Commission will that have or will it take visible expression in ways that we can see and observe and that's not to say that we're not still living by faith and we trust in God's promise is obviously living during this time we have to live by faith because things are you know awful culturally speaking like morally speaking it's terrible even though the king is Seated on his throne and we look to him and we trust in him even though we don't yet see all things in subjection to him we see him the author of Hebrews says but the point is if those things actually take place if there's repentance if there's Reformation if there's Revival if there is a formal Christian commitment and consensus on the part of a Nation here's the thing is there a manifest expression and does that look different than a pagan Nation or a secular Nation Oh yeah it ought to it should it must imagine uh the the football team being called before the coach I'm gonna use something that'll be good for you to understand and with the coach and he's saying all right guys why don't you go out there and fight with all of your might give it all that you've got you want to play as hard as you possibly can and do all the plays we've taught you you've trained for so long for this give it everything you've got and go there and defeat that team and I absolutely 100 guarantee you what's going to accomplish nothing and you should anticipate you're gonna lose this but go out there and fight and win and I promise you lose go you feel like hey that's not good that's not good I think that's why the renewed interest in this view of the future and the success of the Great Commission and the gospels because not not that people just want to see the victory up front but they want to know that their ordinary the mom changing diapers at home wants to know that that faithfulness is actually producing something right right that this extends Beyond just you know these you know you know the Christian sphere or the institutional church right people want to know and be encouraged that that these things actually matter and I'm sure that they would affirm that you know they do matter but again does it produce a difference in the world and is that a difference observable right is it does it actually accomplish things in the world and can you see the difference I think what makes which makes me sad to be honest is we would all agree obviously that our nation was founded our laws were founded our constitution was founded primarily on the law of God right Christian principles in in many not I'm not gonna say all but many of our initial legislators were professing Christians right and so to go from that to this where we're at today we're talking well you know she had rules even you had to be baptized yeah exactly and the opposite of it is you mentioned it North Korea like that's what it looks like when when people stop well here's the argument well they threw off like Korea was known as the Jerusalem as the East it was it was exactly amazingly Christian professing Christian Nation and you have the most stark contrast today with a satellite image of like South Korea lit up North Korea and darkness and what did what did North Korea do what did their dictator do well he was the he was the child of like Christian missionaries and when he goes uh Communists and he goes and all that stuff like what is he what does he do the first thing he does is he actually bans Christianity right and he makes Christianity illegal and then they re-spin the biblical stories uh to be about him he becomes Jesus yeah he he is the Son of God and uh and and all the Ten Commandments or even respawn in relation to the the dear leader and so that's precisely what you have to rid the world of is you have to rid it of the authority of Jesus Christ and Pastor Wang Yi in China that I've always said this the Chinese government nailed it with Pastor Wang Yi they nailed it he's in a dungeon now somewhere probably inverting State they said to him you are being arrested you are charged with the subversion of the communist state the attorney's communist state why because he preached the authority of Christ over the Chinese government and these guys would all agree they would absolutely agree he did exactly what he was called to do right okay he did exactly what he was called to do right and they recognized the problem and the question again is this when he does what's right and professes the lordship of Christ over the Chinese Communist party and that government the question is is should we anticipate that that faithful Proclamation will actually bring transformation when it does that's the question what will the governments in China look like well they look like faithful followers of Jesus Christ and God's law or Unfaithful ones do you want legislators who profess faith in Jesus acting inconsistently with that and here's the big question ready over it all is it is neutrality a myth or not is neutrality a myth or not because if neutrality is a myth then that means that legislatures cannot serve Christ and not serve Christ at the same time there you go yeah and that's the issue yep great Point not only do we believe those things we've demonstrated sure that we that we've done that right all along the lines of the issue of social justice uh we had a statement on social justice called leaders uh within within us Josh you spearheaded yeah I mean that's the irony here yeah and and in fact the interesting thing about that is you know we had all sorts of Brothers around the table we were having conversations I've been hearing people talk about well you know the first time I think I've heard of Christian nationalism is like two years ago and you know here we are in 2023 and they're like aiming like back to 2021 I would go back to 2018 yeah the very first time that I heard this statement was as we were sitting at the table we were talking about these things leading up having conversations I was hearing the term Christian nationalism being used then and needing some formation and you know specificity of definition all of that but that's when I first heard it was back then and so uh again it wasn't on my radar screen in the sense of the way it is now in a sort of a movement or you know this this popularity that we're seeing today but yes we have not been those who you know shrink back and you know crawl up up under pews and just pray come quickly Lord Jesus that's not our approach to dealing with problems in the Public Square we're willing to take stands against abortion and to try to pass bills uh you know that that would basically uh Outlaw all abortions in the state of Georgia which we were leading in that charge to try to figure out ways to even bring about Justice for All which would actually mean that those who engage in abortion are actually going to have to you know be punished as a result of this it's equal protection we want the equal protection for the for the lives of The Unborn as we do for those of us who walk around every day absolutely so again this charge that we have or that if you anyone that stands against this specific form of Christian nationalism has a loser theology that should be you know in the same equation as Russell Moore and Tim Keller and David French I would wholeheartedly disagree with that statement yeah I wanted to play that because uh they're right and it's important for us to recognize that these guys are not the same as the person who does bury their head and say it doesn't matter anyway let it go to hell in a handbasket and why bother polishing brass on a sinking ship they're not saying they're not acting like that they're not doing that and what they're bringing up there is the Bill of equal protection that we brought into the state of Georgia and they fought hard with us on that one and so what we would be saying is simply this look Brothers you have all the foundations there um you're you're just not seeing the inconsistencies and you're not bringing it to its final end and so um we're going to discuss this more and more we're actually going to go to the after show in a second here so if you are all access Partners with us we're going to go over to apologia Studios and just uh continue this discussion over at apologio studios in the after show and so encourage you to sign up for all access partner with us in Ministry you make all this possible all the evangelism videos that have happened over the last couple of months engagement with Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses that has impact in the world you guys helped make that you you did it with us and so we're going to go over to the after show to be a blessing to all of our all access Ministry Partners to have sort of a private time with you guys continue this discussion but um Andy P Super Chat um and do you think the enemy could result in better quality Christian art and entertainment in the next hundred years music video games and books yes is that a simple enough answer yep what would you tell president Trump or any politician if you could respond to his lackluster answer to abortion in the town hall last night I didn't see it I've been here neither I didn't see it uh I'd like to look at it maybe maybe we'll be able to pull that and respond to it and thanks for uh helping us to notice that Andy I'll take a look at that um I could just say ahead of time I would point out the inconsistencies wherever they were and I would bring the law of God to bear I would just remind them of what he initially said when he asked this question a few years back and he was right he was trying to be consistent he was like well I guess there has to be some punishment if it's murder it has to be some punishment yeah so is that all of our super chats yep all right all right guys so I encourage you guys all again uh to go to sign up for all access continue the conversation with us over on apologiastudios.com please go and check that out over there we are delighted to be able to have this opportunity to do that with you guys um also go to end abortionow.com sign your church up get connected be a part of all the churches that are saving lives every day outside of abortion Mills around the world um be a part of that movement bring the gospel call to repentance offer help hope and love to mothers and fathers who are there save these lives with us is help us to establish justice in these legislatures again Alabama's bill of equal protection was put in pray that it gets into committee pray that he gets a hearing and pray for us as we continue the work that we're doing to establish justice for the pre-born love our brothers over at G3 so thankful for them truly thankful for them yes we're going to head over to apologostudios.com come join us over there if you didn't get your account for bonson you yet get it it's free train yourself train your family train your church uh you're gonna be blessed by that content again grateful for the bonson family for entrusting that with us that's Luke the bear peace out I'm Jeff the common the ninja and that's Zach Conover director of communications with Ean thank you guys so much for your love for us and your prayers we'll see you next week [Music] [Music] thank you

Channel: Apologia Studios

Views: 26,482

Keywords: Jeff Durbin, Apologia Church, Viral Videos, Jeff durbin sermon, Jeff durbin debate, apologia radio, apologia studios, christian nationalism, josh buice christian nationalism, christian nationalist, postmillennialism, theonomy, Stephen Wolfe christian nationalism, Joel webb christian nationalism, Douglas wilson mere christendom, Douglas wilson christian nationalism

Id: LXQ_Q4eH0bg

Length: 65min 12sec (3912 seconds)

Published: Thu May 11 2023