My guest tonight is a critically acclaimed author from Nigeria whose most recent best-selling book is called dear EDG Ola or a Feminist manifesto in 15 suggestions, please. Welcome Chimamanda Ngozi, Adichie Welcome to the show. Thank you I'm so excited to have you here because I've been a fan of your work for a long time I've been a fan of your words for a long time I have to ask you before we get into the book as A person who is considered as one of the most foremost feminists of our time Why is it that so many people see the word feminist as a negative thing? um because I think that Feminism has long been associated with the most extreme versions of it So people think of feminists is sort of a crazy woman who hits men and doesn't shave Really crazy negative stereotypes, right? It's an attach to feminism And so people don't want to associate with it that people who've said to me. Why do you call yourself feminists? Why don't you just say you're a humanist or an equalist? But that is what feminism is. Right, right Feminism is about justice for everyone. But you have to name a problem. And the problem is it's women who've been excluded So we need to call it what it is Wow, especially because that's that's wrong Anyway in many ways that's that's the same thing people say about black lives matter or as they go to one you say all lives Matter, well, we know the rest of the lives matter the problem needs to be obsessed Yes, the the book that you have written here is really different from your other offerings It's a feminist manifesto in 15 suggestions And I like that you keep making it easier and easier and easier for people to be feminists This this is a really interesting. But how did this book come about? So a few years ago, I wrote my friend had a baby. And so she said to me I won't have to be feminist I want her life to be better than mine. What should I do? So then I thought I should write her a letter right it was an email that I wrote to her and and then I decided to turn it into a book and I made a few changes but really it was for my friend and Only after I had a baby My daughter is two and a half. Did I realize how easy it is to? Sort of tell people what to do about child raise and when you don't have a child, right? It's much easier to deal with a hypothetical child and a real But I'm still trying to follow all of the suggestions. It's just that it's it's more difficult than you think What would you say is the most difficult part of teaching a child or raising a child to be a feminist? You know it's not that it's easy to do but it's that you have to fight against it sort of feels like the universe has a Conspiracy against you so you you tell your child, you know, you don't have to play with dolls but then you go to the store and the girls sections are just dolls right and You know that they're still very much that that glue and pink binder in the wall Are you trying to teach your child that you know? You can be whoever you want to be so it can feel as though there's a lot that you need to push back Right, right, you know from the world But but it's doable I'm very optimistic about how we can change the world what what I've always admired about your your words on feminism is that you you don't seem to live in a world where it's abstract or it's just Extreme like it It never seems to me like you talk about feminism like it's like this is how it is And it's it's it that is the way it is like in the in the book for instance There are some suggestions where you talk about how you can encourage your daughter if she's a daughter to be anything She wants to be to like blue to play with boys toys etc. But that shouldn't mean that she should shun her femininity That's not what feminism is So when people find themselves caught up in a conundrum with feminism Like what is the one thing they could say to themselves? It just makes it easier to understand Think of yourself as an individual There is no I mean, I think the feminism and femininity are not mutually exclusive right? I think that the early feminists in the West Shunned femininity because femininity had for so long been used as a way to put them down So women were property are supposed to look pretty and stay at home so I think when women started to push back against that they were like we don't want pretty But I think now we've come to stage where we can accept that People can be many things right you can be feminine and feminist. It depends on whether you want to be huh? The problem is if somebody is pushing you to be what you don't want to be then that's not feminism, right? So so I usually say to women who are thinking about you. Just think of your individual self, right? What do you like and is that thing causing you harm? Right. Is it is it somehow is reducing your spirit? Is it making you resentful because I think that when there's really quality resentment will not exist Right in relationships where people are unhappy because there's a gender problem Yes, there's resentment if there isn't a problem you just you don't have resentment you kind of know it's intuitive I think right what would you say then? It's still possible for a woman I mean, I I know my mom always says this to me But some people struggle with the concept would you say it's possible? For a woman to say I am I'm a feminist I believe in equality But I still want a man to open the door for me I like that gesture or is that problematic and of itself, you know the thing about by the way? Your mother is wonderful just from reading your book. Thank you. You're so fortunate. I've been raised by her if I'm serious I think everything good in you is because your mother is Appreciative and the way you said it is it's a beautiful compliment that sounds like an insult, you know Just like everything good in you is from your mind the rest of that shit is you Think I think just just like holding the door shouldn't be gender I think it's a lovely thing to hold the door, but we should hold the door for everyone. Right, right I hold the door for men right and women um, and so I think the idea of still holding the door for a woman because she's a woman I have trouble with it. I'm quite happy for people to hold the door for me, right? I hope they're not doing it because of this sort of idea of chivalry Because chivalry is really about the idea that women are somehow weak Right, right, right and and me protects in that but we know that really there many women who are stronger than many men. Right, right So really what I think is that the people we should protect at people who need protecting whether men or women Which is also why I sort of have trouble with the idea of women and children when women are classified in the same You know when when there's a tragedy and we say women and children should leave first I think actually is the people who are weak on. Well, you know you Should leave first. Yeah. Wow. This is like a more eloquent argument of what some of the guys on the Titanic said Like my mother would want me to leave Women and children stay behind, but I really do understand what you were saying. Yeah, there's a fascinating passage in the book and this was it's called the seventh suggestion and in this it's In the line that the paragraph starts with them never speak of marriage as an achievement and then when we skip forward it says when Hillary Clinton was running for president of the United States the first Descriptor on her Twitter account was wife the first descriptor on the Twitter account of Bill Clinton her husband is founder not husband because of this I have an unreasonable affection for the very few men who use husband as their first descripted do you think in in that moment it made you feel like In society, we've created a world where the best thing you can be as a woman Sometimes is a wife to a man but a man can have every other achievement. Was that the problem with that idea for yourself? Yes, yes but it's also the larger question of what we expect of women in public life and why I think that there many people for whom Hillary Clinton is Not relatable right unless she primarily defines a certain domestic terms wife mother but wife in particular Right because I think it makes people feel comfortable. I think people are very people don't know what to do with the idea of a woman who has power or who's seeking power and so the way to somehow Temper that is to say well wife. I'm a wife so therefore I'm not that scary right and it's not I mean Obviously, I think marriage is a wonderful thing and it can be you know Just such a joy and and all of that but it's that we raise girls to aspire to marriage in a way We don't raise boys to well. I think there's a problem with that. So you have little girls who from very early on are thinking about the wedding dress Right. I don't know how many boys think about the wedding tuxedos right So what it means is that there's an immediate imbalance I think in just the idea of what is aspirational And so I think what we should do is in raising boys and girls teach them that love is wonderful marriage is wonderful But none of that is something that one should aspire to right when you say to a girl Oh, you've got you've got your PhD, but when are you getting married? Right, which is a common phrase we hear all the time when when raising a child and saying I'm going to raise a feminist For many people the immediate connotation that will come to their mind. Is that means you're raising a daughter? Yeah but from reading your work a lot of the work has to be done by men men need to Participate and why is that so important because men have to be on board I think you can change women all you want if you don't change men nothing changes because we share the wall it's men and women and I also think sadly that we live in a world where men are more likely to listen to men. Oh It's true Wow. You don't think so. Sure then how do you convince the first man? I think some men have already been convinced I think people like Barack Obama for example is a very good role model because his feminists and he's cool Right, so so he's actually good and we need more men like that to speak up I think men me to speak up men need to be on board men need to not think of feminism as something to sort of Something that's attacking them, right? I think some men think that they Need to understand that feminism is something that's good for everyone because really when all of us are released from gender roles were all better Off right, right. And in the end it's about justice don't we want to live in a just world? So there's some men who've been convinced more men need to be and Trevor. Well, you should Get cracking I'm gonna call my mom. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna come on. Thank you so much for being on the show I really love shooting shoot every single time. It's an amazing book dear egi whele is available now Chimamanda, Adichie everybody You
Good for her! Black women should stop running away from feminism... radical feminism is beautiful... liberal feminism is ugly. My mom is a second-wave feminist and raised me (and my sis) to be a feminist.