Child Sacrifice STILL Goes On - Annie Ikpa | On the Edge podcast 205

I think that this is a business there are those who are not just in Uganda but various different countries in in Africa and in India too who have realized that there is big big money in convincing people that sacrificing a child will make them Rich children are murdered for money [Music] hi welcome on the edge Annie iqba how are you doing very well thank you very very happy to be here finally yeah we've been trying for a while haven't we it's really nice to get you here and your equipment's great everything's great I'm very happy tell me a bit about your background and the Productions you've worked on over the years yeah so I a freelance video editor I work mainly in sort of reality entertainment um I think what most people call trash trash TV I guess um but I love it uh love Island uh I've worked on Strictly Come Dancing I'm a celeb get me out of here uh Made in Chelsea towie too hot to handle just finished that that was really good um so yeah I work on a broad broad range of shows but all seemingly in the same sort of genre but um I very much enjoy my job here and in general how much do you sort of push them around let's say love Island how much are they sort of pushed to have certain conversations obviously not gonna answer that I mean they aren't um it's reality it's sort of you know obviously within the spectrum of um you know it's a television show right so um being very very careful not to say something that's gonna make sure I'm never hired again um it's unscripted it really is unscripted I think there's like this massive misconception that made in Chelsea The Only Way is Essex they're giving this kind of script before um before they're filmed and they are not they really are not fair enough and you're right I don't want to put I don't want to prod you on that because I don't want to get you in trouble moving on yeah yeah moving on but this is the thing so I mean you it's it's fairly um reality show Fairly superficial but a lot of us love it and I enjoy watching it myself and you do learn a bit about society and things but how did you get involved in the kind of activism that you've you've been doing that we're going to talk about today uh well do you know I don't there's this thing about the word activism that just sounds a bit um I I want to say Ponzi but I don't I don't like it sounds like activism is kind of like saved for the middle class really Posh loaded kids who are rebelling against their really loaded parents and I'm just not that at all so I would not consider myself an activist you know what I mean yeah it's not it's not that at all we need another word we need yeah I don't know what would you what would you suggest um impactful um stuff um I don't know I think I think it got to a point where I was I was working and you know enjoying my job but feeling a little bit kind of like it could be something else kind of out there and I wanted a bit of a change and I uh reached out to a lady who ran a baby's home in Uganda and she sort of looked often looked for and needed TV people to go over there and shoot films and edit them and stuff and I very quickly agreed and you know um went to Uganda I think it was only supposed to be about three months and I ended up staying six or seven in the first in the first instance and um at this Baby's home which is a little bit like it's a somewhere in between a baby's home and a rescue center there are children there from the ages of like zero to eleven twelve who have been sort of either found abandoned or rescued from their homes um brought to this Baby's home and you know they try and basically find Ugandan families to adopt these kids and there was one girl there who um had I was told survived child sacrifice and it was through her and the organization that I I learned I learned quite a lot about what this practice is and the effects it's had on on the country was that a shock for you to learn about I mean did you know that that existed not specifically child sacrifice I knew that you know there was such things as the occult and I knew about witchcraft through my dad who's Nigerian but I had I hadn't ever heard about like sacrifice and obviously like there are sacrifices that are made but it's always to do with animals and chickens and um goats which is very very common but never had I heard of of humans being sacrificed and certainly not children yeah it's really quite unnerving and and scary I thought the same as you and I thought it was maybe like I don't know an old wives tale or maybe even like a xenophobic thing about all these other countries where that happens I suppose it's it must is it embarrassing for a lot of people from those countries that this goes on are are people in in those in in these countries in the cities are they aware of this happening do you know what it's I wouldn't say and very I think there's there's obviously a lot of Shame right um there's a lot of shame I think people do realize it's happening um you can't not however it's not so much a taboo subject right it's people aren't open about it unless you really ask the questions and I found when I heard about this and I went researching um people were really kind of hesitant at first to talk about it but it only took a little bit of digging and scratching the surface and they were just on Earth all of these awful stories that they were so obviously Keen to talk about and needed for themselves you know to to explain to someone even though I was a foreigner what was happening in their country because it felt to me as though they'd never been asked um yeah they really wanted to communicate this horror that was happening all around them so um do people know about it yes um people are willing to talk about it but you just got to ask questions and ask the right questions is it a horror for everyone because I guess some of these people are carrying out the practice so for those people have did you speak to any of those people were they sort of defending the practice no of course like no one would out like outright come out and say that they had um however I I made like a little documentary about it more as much for me really to sort of help document what I was hearing but also because at one point I wanted to take it to the government and just say look this is what's happening um and I met you know survivors of child sacrifice I met parents who'd lost their children I interviewed the police the Judiciary but I also um I also interviewed This Witch Doctor Who had very recently given up the practice I didn't and could not ask him outright if he had if he had you know um was involved in sacrificing children but there was an error about him that he had done things that he was not proud of so uh yeah I kind of got close I met this one woman in fact yes I met this one woman um I won't say where and she did actually admit to sacrificing children I had completely forgotten about this um I was not actually traveling I wasn't I wasn't actually specifically working on this side of um you know on researching researching child sacrifice until I met her completely by chance and I got talking about what I was doing and she said that her family had um forced her or introduced her to the occult and she had been sort of um born into this um idea that you know when you sacrifice children it will lead to riches and prosperity and she was forced to carry out these things and she was deeply deeply ashamed um the conversation lasted couldn't have lasted more than five minutes and she was just desperate to get out of her situation I don't know if she was continuing you know if she was still doing it then but um yeah it's so weird I've completely forgotten about that and it's something that I I wish I'd remembered a long time ago because yeah I don't know perhaps I could have I probably would have behaved a bit differently I don't know weirdly um how so well I was so wrapped up in like just trying to sort of get the message out there that this exists but actually weirdly there are people who clearly are involved in this who are desperate to get out um it probably wasn't a fight that I was able to take on at the time but in hindsight I wish I paid a bit more attention to that and there's no way in hell I'd be able to find her now yeah well hindsight it's one of those things as a journalist isn't it it's impossible there's so many leads aren't there and you just can't possibly remember all of them and you know yeah you spoke of of parents um you know losing their children I mean so so would it is it often that one sacrifices one's own children or that they're sort of taken from from the parents both so children are it's easier to sacrifice your own children for um accessibility um reasons um and also there is a myth that when you sacrifice your own child you're in blood um it uh it's whatever you're trying to do is more likely to work um because it's a you know effectively a bigger sacrifice but more often than not um children are abducted on their way to school um or when they're sort of working in the fields especially so um yeah either either one of those it must be terrifying um for the families but I mean we do a lot on this podcast I'm always talking about you know Cults and extreme ideologies and that even you know the banality of evil how how these beliefs can make even good people do awful awful things do you think these people when they're sacrificing their children I mean they must firstly they really believe that it's going to bring good things do they have do you know of any belief they have about the child itself like okay now my child's gonna go to heaven no and I haven't I haven't ever heard of heard of no um no why have you no it's just because it's so it's so difficult to imagine a parent sacrificing their own child without unless there was a reason like okay but they're gonna go to heaven so it's okay well I I can tell you what I think it's not just I think it's really easy to point the finger and say you're so [ __ ] evil you've done this to your child and absolutely I am not condoning it one bit but there are you know there's there's two ends of this spectrum here you've got the rich people who are sacrificing children to kind of maintain their wealth and then you've got the really really poor impoverished desperate people who are sacrificing children their own children to emerge from that poverty because they genuinely feel as though there is no other way um they've been brain brain brainwashed by their Community brainwashed by the witch doctor that they're Consulting um so but they absolutely genuinely believe that this will help them emerge from their poverty did you get the impression that even it's a really hard decision for them to make naturally yeah and and I suppose it's a difficult question but I mean I didn't do you have an impression of how they typically go about sacrificing children uh so they I mean they they have child um they obtain the child and um often they use chloroform uh to knock the child out um but they they sacrifice a child I remove organs and cut the child and take what they need often while the child is alive um unconscious so whether they and chloroform is not like is readily available um in Uganda so yeah children are held down you know I yeah you can imagine it um and you know it's obviously um incredibly harrowing uh because there are there are those who have survived and can can tell you what happened to them they remember the pain and they remember and can identify uh the the perpetrators and their attackers so uh so yeah what tradition well what what normally happens is that they they take what they need from the child um and it's not normally the witch doctor who does this uh who does the cutting um it's someone that they have employed um and then they then go back to the witch doctor with the body parts and they are mixed in with ritual Medicine by the witch doctor and you know a ritual is is made to the uh to the ancestors who have demanded this and um and yeah that's that's the general kind of process what did it make you feel like um learning about this for the first time ah dirty like the fact that I had been like blissfully walking around um and living my life and not having a clue that this happened all at the time um was just I just felt really ashamed and I think maybe that's why I um just put so much of myself into doing anything I could to to make some sort of difference and impact um because I just felt so much guilt weirdly and also I had this you know complete I was completely inspired by this little girl um and felt that I just had this kind of real kinship to her I was seeing her every day and I just wanted to do her proud and do every other child um proud who had suffered at the hands of this practice and this was this was a Survivor um what was her story so she so when sacrifices are often made um during election times um to help bring good luck they're often um you'll often find the bodies of children under construction sites to bless a building more uh apartment building and this little girl uh had been taken to a construction site um a witch doctor had laid her down and just sprinkled herbs all around her and all over her body and luckily a security guard had seen what was going on stopped it and called the baby's home where I was working and um and yeah she was she was brought to the baby's home but she I think was one of the cases where it was the parents who had ordered that because there was a nationwide appeal for her parents uh to you know does anybody know this girl her picture was everywhere all over the news and newspapers and nobody came forward and we suspected that her parents could have been involved in in that but she was she uh she uh it was awful she was really quite a shell of a human being when I met her she was just terrified and visibly traumatized and you know I just I just loved her instantly and I just wanted to learn about the practice that nearly killed her and yeah we just got really really close and I'm still in touch with her now did she start to recover upon being with you and and back to sort of normal life yeah yeah she did yeah very like gradually what's what's she up to now so she's now living with um a teacher who's fantastic um she's got two brothers uh living in a really nice house in a village um surrounded by like pigs and sheep and not sheep sorry pigs and chicken and mango trees she's flourishing I'm going to see her next month oh wow she must love you though she must she must like see you as I mean how old is she now uh well we think that she was like obviously she didn't come with like documentation right but I think we think that she's probably about 10 now or nine she just makes it out every year she's like I think I'm seven I'm eight I'm nine because yeah yeah um but her birthday's the first of July so I think um her her parents picked that as it's uh I don't know easy middle of the year and I suppose that security guard saved her life as well yeah absolutely um and like about a year after I sort of start digging around and wanted to learn a bit more about her case and I went to the police station where uh the case was reported and they had lost they'd lost the the Case Files um so I couldn't there's nothing exists on on who found her um or anything because that's what I wanted to do next what do you think that might mean that they've lost them of things um uh lots of cases go missing um and uh to be honest with you I I can't say and I wouldn't like to speculate What's um Kampala like and is that where this is mostly going on or is it that the rest of Uganda uh it's happens all over normally in the The Villages um there's particular districts where it's particularly prevalent but it also happens in Kampala but on the whole Kampala is a wonderful wonderful city um when I first got there I just instantly felt at home like the people are genuinely the the nicest people the most welcoming and I think that was really important doing the kind of work that I was doing that I felt like I had a you know a second home in a way um and I felt for the most part safer um but it's really cool The Nightlife is amazing um really good uh they're amazing restaurants you should go I think you would enjoy it partly there together I'd love to oh yeah oh I would love that it's honestly it's so good there's so many places to see I've only ever been to South Africa in in Africa I did a rugby tour when I was younger but that was beautiful what a beautiful country I suppose every country is beautiful isn't it there's not I don't know I don't know that there's a country that's not beautiful I don't think I've been to enough places to answer that do you know um but everyone must have its beauty yeah exactly and Kemper Uganda has it in abundance really it's absolutely stunning um and I've just you know I felt like I had um really understood the rhythm of the country I'd been there on and off for nearly eight years and my dad who's Nigeria and he probably wouldn't like to hear this but I felt I feel more Ugandan than I do Nigeria don't tell him that I know no let's keep that between us um I just yeah even though the Bill's like past it's now a law um I just can't help but go back and obviously I'm still involved not as much as I was but um there's just something about that country that just keeps pulling me back I want to go with you there but it's just expensive probably isn't it not really get on Skyscanner um yeah yeah are we talking hundreds or over a thousand no it's not over that it's not Jamaica come on um it's probably I think I paid like 650 something like that and they have gone up actually they used to only be about 450 only but yeah Uganda tourist board should be paying us for this shouldn't they've given them a bit of PR yeah well maybe not all the bad stuff we're talking about as well but that's why I'm happy that you've you've talked that kind of balances it out yes I'm happy you've talked about how nice people are there as well because I the last thing I would want for people to hear this and go what's this place Kampala Uganda oh horrible because every society has awful awful things in it you know that's and it's I imagine it's a rarity right what the the child sacrifice stuff there um uh depends who you ask um but generally speaking it's a um I can't bloody well call it a safe country now again I really because if you're if you're a child then you're it then it's not um all of the time depending on where you are um but there's a lot to see a lot to do and it's a wonderful affordable beautiful city Kampala and I encourage anyone to go I thought of another word instead of activism but I don't know I don't know if this sounds quasi-religious though but is this has this become a calling for you uh I think it was it has to have been right like I just shut down everything else in my life I'm just like Health leather um went for this and I have definitely described this in the past as my calling just because I was a bit Wayward before I knew like the only two things I think I've been sure about uh in my life are the fact that I wanted to get into TV I wanted to be a video editor and I wanted to pursue this and yeah I just felt like both of those I wouldn't say Telly is my calling but it was certainly something that I was hell-bent on doing and this has been no different were you would you write a book about this because I can see it being turned into a movie or something particularly about your impact and what you did there don't know um considering that doesn't it can you imagine what how would you answer that like if somebody say your podcasts are so interesting like I could see this being sent into a movie one day what'd you think if you say yes you're a dick if you say no you're being disingenuous oh no ah so you mean so yes so the genuine answer is yes of course of course because I mean the it would be such an amazing story like the things without and I'm really not being arrogant the things I've seen and heard um are like of ridiculous um but at the same time I certainly wouldn't pursue something like that I wouldn't go actively looking for that um that opportunity no let things happen as they I think it's possible though it's possible to do something that it that you do because it's worth doing because it spreads the message more because you're writing a book and it's a good process and if also like cool things come from that if also money comes from that well who can't like that's you know you can do it what you can give all that money to charity if it makes you feel better but it's still the process of writing and getting it out there uh would would really be something yeah do you know I thought when I got back I started writing when I got back last year passed last May I got back and I was like I have to start writing because this is insane and I will forget all of it if I don't and I did and I started thinking could could I potentially could this potentially be a book and I was just like I can't be do you know how long it takes to write a book but I think the reason that you you I've done some podcasters before about why we like scary things um and a lot of it is apparently to do with our evolutionary psychology that if you watch horrible things happening horrible horrible horrible things uh it might help you to practice and to know what to avoid yourself you know you see someone getting eaten or killed in the wild or whatever by watching it it gives you dopamine in your brain or something it makes you want to watch it and then you know how to avoid that it's that kind of thing that's probably why we like public executions and public hangings and stuff back in the day do you think there's there's anything to to that in the child sacrifice I mean is there is there ever like a group of witnesses watching uh what do you mean sort of okay is it a spectator like a public thing yeah absolutely not no okay no no this is this is very private and yeah yeah absolutely secretive and uh secluded and yeah behind walls or within bushes yeah no no no absolutely not do you think it it might also just speak to humans I mean what does it say to you about humans are we are we naturally violence are we suppressing our violence and then using excuses sometimes to be violent I don't think it's as deep as that if I'm honest I think that this is a business I think that uh there are those who are not just in Uganda but um various different countries in in Africa and in India too who have realized that there is big big money in convincing people that sacrificing a child will make them Rich um especially in Uganda it's big business so I don't really think it's a case of you know going back to sort of human you know um this sort of barbaric um it's not a case I don't I think it's bigger than violence I don't I don't think that that's as um prominent in this situation as really unscrupulous um evil people realizing that they can capitalize of people's desperation and where so the money where where is the money in in all this because obviously we've got uh what's happening is you know because for prosperity and luck and things so where does the what's the what's with the money here so obviously a witch doctor is paid um for their services and the ultimate um you know one of the most expensive things to ask a witch doctor to do or provide for you is uh the sacrifice of a child uh so this can cost anywhere from a about 200 pounds which isn't very much to us but is a huge amount to a particular witch doctor and can write you know rise to thousands and thousands um so children are murdered for money and you know it's not just the Witch Doctor Who are paid obviously it's a it's the person who abducts the child it's the um person who goes out to buy the utensils to cut the Chuck there's it's such a network um and you've got the driver you've got the person who obtains the phones um to make you know to communicate with those involved um so so yes it's uh it's a very very profitable business is it like a mafia and are there famous Witch Doctors I suppose because it's so illegal they've got to hide I guess there are but that you've got to be quite careful when you kind of there are witch doctors and traditional healers right um which doctors are those who are carrying out um Witchcraft and appeasing ancestral Spirits not necessarily um not necessarily carrying out child sacrifice but it's the witch doctors who are carrying out child sacrifice amongst other things and then you've got traditional healers who are you know medicine men and women and they use traditional herbs to cure ailments and illnesses and they're very reputable um so sometimes that you know that those lines are blurred and the traditional healers especially in Uganda get a really bad name for themselves because of the reputation of witch doctors who are carrying out these and you know hideous hideous acts and and then was this when you got there was this legal no so it's always been illegal to sacrifice a child murder a child but the the issue was that defendants were being charged using the penal code um which did not um carry an adequate sentence in my opinion um and there were significant loopholes in not just the penal code but the anti-trafficking in persons act um that made it really really easy for people who are carrying out this crime to be let off for example um you know if there was a case of a child who was kept in a shrine and she was a graduate she was gradually sacrificed and um instead of just you know removing her body parts and leaving her to die she was born for the purpose of sacrifice so over the years she was you know they would remove a fingernail it would grow back and never move it again they'd remove her earlobes teeth um pull out hair by the time I met her she couldn't hear she couldn't see she couldn't speak she was in a wheelchair it's awful um so the guys who did that to her were charged with kidnap kidnap and torture and were given a ridiculously low sentence so our law um has that provision of gradual sacrifice um and it carries a a really really high sentence so we have thought of every single possible scenario that that is involved in sacrificing a child from the moment that call is made to the murder of that child and every single stage has a crime attached to it we have spent so long thinking and thinking and thinking of every possible scenario to make sure that there aren't any loopholes anymore yeah so what kind of things were they like so now placing a call that is a crime that will get you a sentence placing a call to a witch doctor about child sacrifice yes and it's obviously at the judge's discretion um but I know that the the law has been used a few times now which I'm insanely proud of um oh yeah yes one of them I think I briefly mentioned about this little boy who survived and he could he could identify his attackers earlier um I mentioned there were some cases of of that happening and this little boy finally um his perpetrators were caught and they were sentenced so I think it was 44 years which I know doesn't sound very much but we will we will appeal that he ain't getting out um but he had been this poor poor little boy has been living with they removed his penis they castrated him and um tried to cut his cut his head off so he's got this huge scar here um and yeah he is he went to Australia for surgery um funded by a charity and they just yeah they did what they could um but he was living in the same Community as the man who attacked him and he couldn't do anything because at the time a child's eyewitness account was not enough to secure a conviction um so this guy's now behind bars and I am really thrilled to see that he this boy has Justice um and that this bill this law I've got to get used to calling it law it's being used in the way that it was designed to I'm insanely proud of it I'm amazed I am and I I you know I wanna I don't want to compliment you too much I don't think you don't want it but I just I I'm Amazed by what you've done I really am um oh it's it's funny how that's come about as well because that you know the Puritans with the witches that was that was the problem was children's eyewitness accounts was putting people into prison but this is a completely different spin on it it's like you this is a really really good thing it's a very good thing um and I have to say it's it really is not just me who's uh pushed this through at all um after a few years um I got funding from an incredible UK based charity called children on the edge um and without their help I certainly wouldn't have been able to to you know consider being anywhere near here like they they resource they help Finance this they did Finance it sorry um offered emotional support everything it was just it would it's impossible to imagine having done this without them so and also my team in Uganda as well so this is not this is not just me I want to make that really really clear yeah um and yeah I couldn't think about it it would be impossible to try and take a take on um a mountain like that you needed I needed help and help I had what were some of the challenges you faced in trying to uh change this law um so we didn't change it we introduced a specific law um and the challenges were just that actually that was one of the main ones that you know we came up against so much sort of criticism like we don't need an we don't need a new law we've got the anti-trafficking person's actually got the penal code this is this is perfectly adequate no they really aren't which is why people are getting off left right and Center um financing I financed it myself for the first three years so I was work in London save up money come back to Uganda and mobilize MPS I was very Whimsical with the way that I was going about it um not particularly methodical right but I didn't really know what I was doing um but it became very very clear that I needed funding and I contacted children on the edge and Rachel Bentley the one of the founders just took took a chance on me um and forever forever grateful for their support so money was a big one I think um you know often like maintaining that sort of momentum um because seven years is no joke you know it was very much like that um and often I just I thought what am I what am I doing I want to go back to London and party and just just do nothing do nothing that's what I wanted to do I want to do a whole heap of nothing and just forget that this had happened because actually I remember feeling like this is a bloody curse because like in the midst of it you can't walk away once you know something like that's happening so I felt totally anchored to this you were still you were you were stuck to it but then you got the bill passed with two minutes to spare yes uh not two minutes not two minutes uh two days uh two days to spare yeah um so the Ugandan Parliament was reaching uh there was going to be a new Parliament basically and um at the end of the tenth Parliament was ending on the Friday and Tuesday Wednesday Thursday three days to spare and yeah we presented on the Tuesday um astonishingly um somehow were able to get a slot because we were actually told previously it wasn't going to happen and I got a call all um in the morning from my colleague in Parliament it was like we're presenting this bill at 10 o'clock and it was like 9 00 a.m and uh I rushed like a bat out of hell um to Parliament in a really really really inappropriate jumpsuit um and I jumped I jumped on the back of a Buddha Buddha which is a motorcycle taxi and uh yeah I told the guys to just just get there get there as soon as possible got to Parliament and uh met the MP who was presenting the bill and he was like we you can't enter Parliament like that you can't like you look I was like no no no no no no no no this can't happen I can't not see this happen and pass or fail um I just I just couldn't let that happen and somehow I managed to get a friend to butter me some clothes and um I changed in one of the offices and yeah I was able to to watch it that would have lit that would have broken my heart if I wasn't able to to watch that all because of a fashion faux pas I would could you imagine living that down particular would have been ridiculous these kinds of things but I should have no I've been in and out of parliament for a long like I should have known that you know some spotty hipster kind of no it wasn't it wasn't appropriate um but yeah no I remember the moment it passed it was just it was just something that I will gladly hold on to forever it was a very very long process it was raining and because of covert it was in this um like outdoor tent and the mosquitoes everywhere um and it just went on for something like two and a half hours because it was going through loads of other bills and finally it got to hours and there was like a moment where they were disputing one of the clauses I was like oh oh God it's not gonna happen and then uh yeah finally finally it did did you feel emotional in the moment that it passed yeah yeah embarrassingly so um you know ugandans are really conservative um but so emotion and tears and all of that just doesn't really fly not in a professional setting and um that you get the the colleague in Parliament who had rang me in the morning had been there from day one in fact he was the legislator who offered to help me for free and so he was sitting to my left and um and he'd never seen me breakfast you know break down like that and it was him who sort of turned to me and said it had passed um and oh gosh I get emotional thinking about that because you know we sort of started it together and we ended it together and yeah it was just a really really special moment well you saved a lot of lives I mean you did more in that moment or in those years than most of us do with our lives I don't really know how to say to that I'm just glad it's being used you know like there was a moment maybe like six months ago where um implementation is a really big part of of um of this like Uganda is got lots of laws but unless everybody implemented they don't really do anything and there was a moment a while back that I was like it's just not being used this bill like have we done all of this for nothing um and then slowly and surely it started getting used like the case that I've just told you about so yeah I'm sick of talking out I wish the thing about doing this on on online is I always have to try and anticipate when someone's about to finish so because just put your hand up a lot of stuff but but I don't want you to stop it I only want you to stop if you've actually finished but I always have to interpret that that it looks like they may be finished but if they are going to just leave a gap and then they've got more to say I don't want to stop it right I'll put my hand up when I'm finishing right it's like about two or three words before the end of a sentence well that helped you out oh yeah it might look it might look weird though on YouTube it might you always put your hand up do you think this will um stop more of child sacrifice through prevention you know people know that there's going to be a higher sentence or or maybe locking up the offenders so there are a few of them fewer of them at large um I think it will do it depends it depends how what the future of this law is really and if it's Contin if it continues to be used in the way that it's being used I think that it will undoubtedly work as a deterrent but um I don't think it will do much more than that um I think I think what's really really important is this stage two which is what I'm doing now um is working on implementation training up the Judiciary so that they know exactly how to use this law um working at the Grassroots level to try and convince and educate communities without sounding really wanky and condescending that this is not this is not the way to go and that there are other ways in which to prosper um they have to work in conjunction and I genuinely I feel as though I picked the easy one of the two passing a law is like you know but convincing you know a community where you know within the whole Fabrics of their being is that you know you have to appease The ancestral Spirits in order to XYZ is going to be really really hard um and probably won't be achieved in my lifetime um but they have to work in conjunction the bill alone will do very very little um I'm afraid to say it will do some and the sum is more than enough um for me but um I just I just feel like while I've got the energy and the means and the momentum I'd just like to continue in this field really I suppose there's a weirdness do you have do you ever cross your just so people listening are only put a hand up to say she finished um there's a there's a weird thing here where it is a case of like wealthier Western people going over I mean you mentioned educate which I was going to ask you next how do we educate people not to do it but it's just occurred to me there is that thing of like us going over and we're going to educate you on how to be at the same time the thing that's happening by our standards just seems so abhorrent that it seems crazy not to try and do that right yeah um yes I think it helps that I'm not white um I don't I think I'd have a hard time I'm still called mazungu over there which is white person because I'm fairer than them um most people um so I still get a tough time in fact I'm probably I'm probably seen as white I'm fine um but I think they wouldn't admit it but I think that they're more susceptible to maybe listening to some of my ideas then they might do if maybe you went over you know so there's I've got that up my sleeve but that's about it that is about it is it weird is it weird feeling white there yeah I don't like it no offense I don't because I'm not it's taking away my blackness like and my identity so yeah it's not nice it's annoying but I got used to it but to be called mazungu all the time right which is you white person it's just like come on I learned the word for mixed race but um and we're just um would shout it back but um muchutella that's it but it just didn't really stick yeah I got caught when I was in South America I was Gringo obviously yeah which which was annoying again because that's an American that's supposed to be an American I had to I'm not I'm not them I'm not I'm not Yankee as they would say no um and then no no I wasn't actually I was just feeling the silence other stuff are there still places uh in other parts of Africa or other parts of the world uh that you know of where this goes on yes yes Botswana Nigeria parts of Ghana um uh in India is specific like particularly bad there was a there was a moment last year where went during I felt really galvanized and there's an organization who helped us kind of helped inform us um when it came to the bill and writing legislation because in legislation legislators borrow from other existing laws to create their own Provisions it's above board it sounds really kind of cagey like they're plagiarizing they're not and we borrowed a lot from the existing laws in India that Outlaw this practice and um I got talking to a charity over there who are really Keen to introduce specific legislation on this and uh I just learned how I mean I thought Uganda was bad but um India has a real serious problem um not all over and don't ask me where I can't quite remember but um I thought perhaps I could then sort of take the you know law and the team that I'd worked with over there and and start helping them but I I don't have the time I don't have the time no I can't I thought it was too much for one person it is yeah I feel bad saying that what was the um I forgot to ask about the boy who was lured to buy soap by his uncle yeah what about him what was his story so the two twin boys um brothers who were at home one day and their Uncle asked them to come to the shop with him and told them that he that they were off to buy soap and he took them into the bush and uh Sat one of them down and sacrificed the other one in front of his brother he cut off his head and removed his genitals and his yeah was just left left left left to die while his brother watched on completely helpless um and that that is I mean that happens all the time by the way um it's not it's not uncommon it's horrible however not uncommon uncommon the issue with one of the many issues with this is that the whip the the uncle was found by the mob Justice before the police could really get get to him and he was burnt alive and they took it into their own hands to to deal with him as they still fit um yeah his brother so the boy is now 12 and he's doing very well he's um he's in school I spoke to him literally a couple of weeks ago um so he's got the support around him I think that he needs um and he's doing all things considered well I think that's amazing to hear and but but how horrific what he went through and horrible um I I guess that's you know a place to sort of come to an end and ask like is there much that listeners can can do to help or or to find out more you know um that's a good question do you know there's not enough out there on when I was trying to research this um the first article I put in child sacrifice Uganda and there was this you know the first article I read was this daily mail um horrible Sensational no offense to Daily Mail listeners or you know workers but it just was completely inaccurate it was just awful so many holes there's not enough information out there which I am working on um but I think there's there's always funding that needs to be I don't want to ask for money um I'm not gonna do that um but if if you would like to help um we I am you know introducing this second phase where implementation is so important I have set up a GoFundMe page um which I cannot believe um has done so well every day I seem to get a little um a donation and I think it's unbelievable there is no pressure whatsoever to donate do if you want don't worry if you don't but there's that um and I think I'm just working on a way to make this information accessible to people not just through the means of podcasts and just because I think it's really important that people know what's going on in their world well I am going to pressure people to give their money to you to contribute to you thank you that's me doing it everyone yeah do go check what just Ani iqba um GoFundMe I don't know I think so can't uh the children on the edge set it up this is how I just I don't know can I tell you could you link to it maybe yeah anyone who does it's wonderful of you I mean typically a lot of listeners buy uh the book of of one of my guests you know so I think if they spent the equivalent on on paying towards this and this is paying towards helping you go out and you know um change things out there and hopefully save some lives so um Annie thank you for being on the edge what a fantastic guest you've been thank you uh it's been really really good I think thank you for giving me the platform to talk about something that's really important to me and that should be should be spoken about way more often thank you hi I'm Andrew gold former BBC journalist I got a little tired of restrictions over who I could interview and what I could say and do so I made this channel click this playlist here and I'll be seeing you on the edge [Music]

Channel: Andrew Gold

Views: 657,147

Keywords: andrew gold, on the edge with andrew gold, on the edge, podcast, interviews, cults and extreme belief, cult, cult thinking, annie ikpa, fighting child sacrifice, child sacrifice, witches, witchery, uganda child sacrifice, witch doctors, shamans, you Won't Believe What They're Doing To Children, susie krabacher, haiti

Id: eikIg57aFHQ

Length: 50min 14sec (3014 seconds)

Published: Fri Dec 02 2022