Charlie Dates Interview

good day my name is Amy Charles jr. I'm the pastor of the Shiloh Metropolitan Baptist Church of Jacksonville Florida and I write a blog that can be found at WWH be Charles jr. calm I'm glad to have with me this afternoon and the sanctuary of Shiloh Church my friend pastor Charlie dates of the progressive Baptist Church in Chicago Illinois sue agreed to sit down and chat us up a little bit for a few minutes thanks for being here with me Charlie thank you so much fest Charles yeah tell me a little bit about you biographically a little bit about your background my name is Charlie dates I am the husband of Kirstie dates the father of Charlie the second and Claire Elizabeth we live in Chicago and I serve as the senior pastor of the historic progressive Baptist Church about 94 years old this year progressive is situated in the Bronzeville neighborhood of Chicago a little bit of importance about that Brownsville is where literally hundreds of thousands of the migrants from the American South moved during the years of the great migration and so quite a historic tale there I have been serving progressive now into my third year and prior to coming to progressive I served as the my official title as the pastor of adult ministries and director of church operations at the Salem Baptist Church of Chicago where Reverend James Meeks is the senior pastor and I think that's that's about it yeah about 32 and young into the pastor trying to follow your lead hopefully I can write a prolific book I think I'm gonna call it it happens after worship you're a native of Chicago yes sir and did you grow up in church how was you how are you introduced to Christ yeah man I came to faith at the Mount Calvary Baptist Church 12:57 West a hundred and eleventh Street where perhaps one of the greatest preachers of the 20th century was the pastor dr. Donald L parson and I came to faith around age five and confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and really genuinely pastor Charles can say that I meant it man and and can see the impact of the imprint of that decision on my life it was a unique time to be at Mount Calvary by the way I guess that's a good way to frame my story at the time male Calvary was running the largest Sunday School in the city of Chicago which was huge because it was a primarily african-american church so we were out running literally all of the Bible believing Bible teaching Church of every stripe of nationality at that time so my introduction of Christ and my introduction to the scriptures came at a unique time in that church's history at the same time to pass a parson was major on the circuit I'm sure he is today still but I came up under a rich preaching tradition I didn't know at the time that he was one of the greats so to speak but I came to learn of preaching and to love preaching from hearing him do it now at the same time one could argue that that church was at the time kind of ahead of its time in the sense that we had our own children's church our own team church which met at another facility and a lot of that predated me I got in on the tail end of it in the early 80s but I got a chance to serve the church as a junior deacon did the litany at communion every first Sunday they didn't let us baptize there anything like that but we we learned to officiate a service and five six seven years old and I learned probably the most Bible in my life during that that period of time so I've got deep rich roots in the in the church and I kind of think to that my testimony is like that of Timothy the faith that dwelt in generations prior to me in a very significant way came to me I own it I don't think it was just transferred something that I don't own I own it but I cannot remember a time when I didn't believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ ma'am II know my whole heart I can't sure I understand and in many ways I find a similar situation of that trust in Christ early the understanding what that meant over the years right but there's just a pattern of me just my life was marked oh yeah very early yeah by the good news of Jesus Christ yes so when in your journey do you begin to sense that there's a car approaching you know so so this is an interesting story of me I I was itching to preach and by etching I almost mean literally man I was itching to preach as a boy before age 10 so when children's church was over our children's church met downstairs I would run up to the sanctuary and I would catch pastor parson before he got out the pulpit he was sick around at church but I catch him and i distinctly remember pastor charles i distinctly remember running up the steps grabbing on his coattail and saying hey man when are you gonna let me preach know i'm seven eight nine somewhere around there and he very gently say oh you know in a couple weeks man I think what we're gonna work something out yeah and I think in the ironic Providence of God I was not permitted to preach until 17 and actually when I began preaching Mal Calvary had a different pastor his name is Craig Brown he pastors the Bethany Baptist Church in Queens New York and this this is why I call it the ironic Providence of God I think at that age although I was very committed and sincere I really had not developed the convictions that would help me to have longevity and ministry it was it wasn't until pastor Brown came that I learned the fundamentals of exegesis and exposition and what it meant to really be committed to not just a style of preaching but the substance of preaching and and given the kind of Hooper that pastor parson is and the and his ability to move crowds I think really that was what I was after so I think God shielded me from that and held me off until I developed an appreciation and a conviction for study for exegesis for the proper explanation of his work I still ain't quite got the clothes I ain't quite but I and on a good Tuesday morning in the shower I think I could go 17 when I actually I was allowed to stand before the congregation to preach and what happened do you remember your first sermon I do man it was August the 16th 1998 and knob o'clock in the afternoon and I preached Paul's texts to the Corinthians where he talks about being pressed on every side but not broken mm-hmm he just wouldn't give up because of the treasure that was locked on the earthen vessel and I read Watchmen knees work on Paul's writing there in Corinthians 4 and I talked about the treasure and earthen vessels mm-hmm it was a great moment for me strategic to that literally I preached that Sunday afternoon and the next Sunday I was off to college to a church that I did not know that didn't know me and I had no opportunities to preach until I came home from school which again turned out to be a great blessing in disguise well help help me help others him go to college where I went to the emergency of Illinois at urbana-champaign flagship institution there it to study to study speech communication and rhetoric originally I thought I was going to do religious studies but I quickly got out of that and stuck with speech and rhetoric mm-hmm and you end up at another church near school yeah and you aren't getting much opportunity to preach until you got home until I got home originally so I got to preach a bit more as I grew as an upperclassman but this is part of the the Providence of God to the pastor of the church so I picked the church because the woman that I'm married to my beloved wife her family went to that church and so I really wanted to see her on the weekends yeah and you know so I went and the guy who passes the church BJ Tatum he's still there was a friend of ek Bailey and he was the strongest expositor and still is for that matter in that region of Illinois and so I I quickly leave Chicago go to Champaign and for four years here's some of the best exposition that you could find in Illinois man Wow at that point in time and so look I didn't need to preach I guess in a sense at that point I really needed to to see it Illustrated and exemplified in that format yeah so it was a very rich time for me praise God right yeah and no gods not starving for preachers and he's not starving for faithful preachers no a lot of names we don't know hmm God knows them yes yeah yeah and and Titan was one who saved my life in that way praise God so you finish school and you come home to Chicago well you know school is an interesting journey for me I I never planned on doing graduate study and so what happened was toward the end of my sophomore year at Illinois I learned of a program that I can earn a master's a human resources management and industrial relations and make a really good amount of money and so I started to lean toward that venture because I didn't want to be broke I didn't want to be abused like some of the pastor's I had seen and so I figured I made a deal with God I can preach and I can be the best support the pastor has ever known sure just let me have a career yeah and build a family and so H Beekman I ended up getting a full ride to the Institute of Labor and industrial relations a handsome fellowship on top of it it's a number two program at that time in the country behind Cornell literally Sara Lee Carnival Cruise Line everybody's flying in to interview the students at the school only 60 students in the school and they permit about 19 to 20 and per class I got a full ride man I knew the Lord was saying this is what I want you to do sure and furthermore to make matters more interesting I was seriously pursuing Kirstie and so to stay in Champaign would have been a commodity for us there's a guy named Dwight Perry Dwight Perry is the first african-american PhD out of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School he calls me we admit my junior year he calls and says well what are you planning on doing you know post undergrad and I told him guinness i want to be a contract negotiated for the NBA I think that's quite fantastic so I lay out my case so he says it seems like you know the Lord might be moving on your half let me make some phone calls to get back to you hmm he calls me back and says you should go visit and they called it the taste of Trinity at the time you should go visit Trinity and meet with the president and just see what happens so I go to the taste of Trinity I'm sitting there at the table listening to the presentations a man comes and literally kneels down next to me at the table my mom is sitting here I'm sitting here and he says you must be charlie dates you know I am Charlie says we got to talk when this is over so he gets up and he goes away the professor sitting at the table are looking at me almost staring and I'm I'm feeling a little awkward now so one of them says you know the president I said who's the president and they said well introducing now the president of Trinity international Universe and it's the same guy who came to sit next to me and the Lord had moved on his heart and some of his friends to give very generously so that I could get a full ride to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School unheard of except for one other guy Ravi Zacharias Wow and I didn't know that until it was time to graduate but the Lord made it clear it was going to require some faith on my ass it wasn't the same is what Illinois was doing mm-hmm but he wanted me there yeah and and so I ended up going to Trinity flow was your experience like it's still going as you know Trinity was a rich program for me I was advised by a a to advise of Scott management church history and Don Carson in the New Testament Department I spent four years there didn't even know the requirements of getting into the program and the like very very culture different from that than I'm accustomed to Trinity so white Evangelical Divinity School northern suburbs down the street from Michael Jordan's house and in Deerfield and in small community man my faith got lit on fire my quest might thirst for understanding and proclaiming the Word of God in a rich manner literally man took off their eternity well grace God know what's going on during these four years outside of school are you are you now getting opportunities to preach it feels like nothing is going hmm it was like nothing but but it's something major is actually taking place so I am interning at a church in Rockford uh-huh new Zion Baptist Church K at work Oakland who is you refer to Melbourne wait is like your dad he's kind of like my dad and in a real sense I served their church and I lived in his home it wasn't it something that the program required is this he and his wife and their family felt God leading them to literally open their home to me man and so I lived in the home of a pastor for four years and I preached occasionally at the church but it was his mission to expose me to everything that he did in ministry whether good or bad and he said to me it's your job to figure out what I'm doing well and and what I'm flunking in Wow and when you leave it's your job to repeat what I do well and to discard everything that that I didn't do well and and man I lived in their house it almost brings tears to my eyes man I lived in their home and and soaked that up for four years that's the roundedness that I think a lot of seminarians are missing these days and it wasn't because I sought it out either I mean the Lord providentially gave it to me but there's a sense in which serving the church brings about a humility with what you're learning in the classroom that if you don't get it you come out with an ivory tower mentality you want to save the world you think all this other stuff it just doesn't work that way man right so so the Lord built that into my experience Wow praise God praise God when does marriage take place in the midst of all of this so me and curiously take a hiatus during during Divinity School and it was brutal man it was long she moves away from Champaign to work in West Virginia of all places at a non-profit in the Lord's doing his own work in her heart and I'm lonely and frustrated and during this process it occurs to me that I I really had no long period of time since high school that I'd been without a girlfriend mm-hmm and the Lord pushed upon my heart I don't know if I've ever shared this with you to do a six-month dating fast right so I say well what is that and this comes in like November but I'm gonna start it in January no dates no phone numbers no extracurricular activities just for the sake of hanging out with the girls a break a clean break so so Kirstie and I separate we don't I don't have any communication with any other girls except for three very strong marriage potentials I'll tell you the back story of this when we get off camera sure and the lord providentially moved in all three of those out of my way man and when it was over about a year later the last girl standing was Miss pretty and so I went hard after her if I can say this to to encourage because I know you got a lot of preachers who watch your blog the way that I kept up with Kirstie during that time as I talked to her dad and I felt like that was the best way for me to keep up with how she was doing without interfering with her life and and vice versa man and the Lord honored that we have like a a real Cinderella kind of story yeah that is very encouraged so we get married as soon as divinity schools over in May we got married in July good that's great so what happens if you're finished goal that you're married mm-hmm what happened so in the ironic Providence of God I end up going to an elementary school called Salem Baptist Salem alternative Christian Academy so school owned and operated by the Salem Baptist Church of Chicago in the early 90s somewhere between the time I graduated in 94 and the time I started Divinity School in 2002 Salem blew up at this point Divinity School Salem is has 120 thousand 19 thousand people to the Lord in one year I mean like certain like the people had to sign a say they place their faith in Christ but I have this relationship with pastor weeks back from when I was a boy he hears that I'm in Divinity School and he says won't you come preach my Wednesday night broadcast now this is a big deal because Salem is live on television and through Chicagoland and and man I I go preach in the nature of his generosity and the Lord did something supernatural that that night for me I mean it was it was very special man and it ended up leading to an opportunity to serve Salem when Divinity School was over yeah so pastor Meeks preaching assistant goes to plant a church in Detroit opens up a an opportunity man and he says to me what you gonna do when you done I said I don't know and and for the next five years after Divinity School I end up literally growing into the pastor it on the biggest stage of Chicago hmm and to that in a few places we can go in the city without some kind of face recognition because of the ministry that Salem is building sure and and he he graciously gave it to me so during this period what is your primary responsibilities preaching preacher yep so you're developing this is your first consistent preaching gig yes sir and it's at this very large platform the services are streamed and on television and all of these things right how do you think that introduction to regular to a regular preaching assignment shaped your preaching for good or for ill right I don't know that I figured it out yeah again I think one of the things that it did for me was it helped me to understand that all of what I had learned and all of what I study needs to be contextualized you know the gospel really has to make sense to people in in the sense that it's the preachers job to help get it at where people are Reverend Meeks is a master at that and I think practicing that under his tutelage strengthened me as a preacher another thing is timing and preaching learning how to manage your time well when you're standing in front of people is something that I I learned to do I'm not great at it I still hear him talking in the back of my mind and and then it taught me a lesson about the super stardom of preaching I think we live in a culture man where preachers are becoming superstars and I'm not sure that that's what we were intended to be but with the advent of television and brother Rollins and you know YouTube and you you know you can preach man and become famous over something that probably wasn't intended to make you famous I mean the guys that we read about in the scriptures who got famous may ended up dead yeah you know but but there's a culture attached to preaching now where a lot of young preachers are seeking the the fame that the pulpit yields yeah I want to get their stuff online and out there yeah and and I learned very early man that that that's fake it's a thin veneer of nothing yes yes and I feel like the motivations of celebrity and commercialism in a lot of ways perverted to work at the border yes sir you're right at the same time I don't know what to say on the other end about it because the fact is we live yeah with so much technology that's right you know the answer is not to run from it absolutely not to run from it and say disconnect yourself from everything these are platforms for the gospel yeah but it takes a lot of work to 1 Timothy 4:16 guard your life yes yes so that you're not making a platform for yourself yes for the gospel and and I'm so glad you mentioned that because I I read it or just read it from the sensitivity the proclivity of my own sin nature yeah and I think that of so many others but the reality is technology is a blessing mm-hmm I mean there are people who get to watch you all over the world every Sunday to hear the gospel minute that's the way it should be mm-hmm but at the same time it shouldn't rotten the core of what preaching is all about or hard work - they are very much so now as you are developing tracing back who are these influences on you and your preaching yeah we'll get to your own assignment yeah but over this period of time when you get to say your end of your Labor's at a sale of who are the persons who have most influential oh yeah so I'm preaching pastor Meeks sure because I'm hearing him all the time Copeland who's in rockford I'm sending for his stuff mm-hmm Ralph Douglas genius West yes it's certainly shaping the way that I'm thinking about delivery and also being able to handle the scholarship of preaching well Maurice Watson who I got introduced to absolutely through pastor Romell Williams and andro mail you know the the country should not sleep on Rome and Williams so so these are people that I'm getting a lot from but at the same time now I've got a section in my library it's not very big but everything I could find on Gardner Taylor is there everything I could get from ek Bailey who at the time had gone to be with the Lord is is there as well but I'm also listening to Joe stole Joe stole was past president of the Moody Bible Institute and one of the crisp clearest communicators of the gospel in his time at Moody so I'm listening to those guys being introduced to some others but really it's it's and then a guy actually out of California Santa near Stanford I can't recall it his name is Paul Shepherd he's no longer there at abundant life but got a chance to get a little taste of his preaching ministry which gave me a sense of well-roundedness I should only approach the pulpit let me let me go back and ask um sure a little more about Donald Parsons mm-hmm who in black Baptist preaching circles is a legend all caps yeah right but there may be those who are listening to this who do not know about the preaching ministry of Donald Parsons what makes the what is the uniqueness the strengths I know Parsons preacher so I have an underlying motivation for answering this question which may not be appropriate so I'll just I'll lay my cards out on the table I think there is a sect of black preaching who might not consider themselves to be like preachers per se that decry the tradition of the african-american church yeah namely of the 20th century mm-hmm and they chart some decline there I don't see that part of the reason I don't see that is because I don't think they know people like Donald right and so here is Donald parson Donald parson is literally one of the smartest preachers to mount the pulpit in Chicago during the 80s 90s 70s 80s 90s and even now but an avid reader a person who's well-versed in culture has the ability to turn a phrase here is what I think is a strength of his preaching he can take one idea and for 40 minutes maybe 60 minutes but he could take one idea and turn it like a diamond yeah to help you see the many angles and facets on it and shut it down right and you know celebration has its place yeah but but he's a guy who very simply can just take an idea a biblical idea be faithful to that idea and communicate it so that people you know from top to bottom in and out can understand it yeah now Donald L Parsons can hope oh man and this guy has a uniqueness right that he doesn't sound like anybody just has a fresh voice yeah and almost if you hear somebody he's all you're doing Donald Fox yeah anything close to it so of course I mean that is the first thing I heard about Donna Parsons boom when I first heard him as a boy he reminded me my father much of my father's preaching was conversational tone you know you could hear a preacher you could be talking to preachers and then they get in the pulpit and then they go into there pull good voice when they bet whatever that is Donna Parsons just kind of goes at it conversationally yeah working his way through I was impressed with the Donna Parsons because he was not a when I was starting hearing him a manuscript preach and pray this guy could go for an hour yeah now he is certain his introduction may be nervous before he turns to the text yeah but he was able to not just keep the crowd but captivate yes Wow with an with the idea of the message and the text yeah these are well crafted well thought through yeah sermons there is a freshness about his preaching was not cliche stuff right you know from top to bottom this guy's just and it's it's such a because he's not traditional in terms of outlines right and all of those kinds of things so there is a it's just such a uniqueness about how he goes about it that he just really stands apart oh yeah yeah yeah and and in a sense kind of carved his own lane in the tradition of african-american preaching yes yeah and and and I would agree with you and I think he's gotten better that's the thing about it - about it this guy's preaching you know he's just being consistent over the years steady and I mean it's just a sharp yeah today yeah so I do another time I want to hear your favorite Donald parson sermon moment or close let me say this way think about it though the the part that I think that people around the country who were exposed to his ministry don't know about is that in my estimation man this guy loved people mm-hm so so he really was to us a pastor you know he was celebrity yet a lot of people around the country but but man I mean he knew us well I mean even today sure but my first hearing about Donald Parsons you know it's one of the best Hooper's in the country yeah you know so when I was a boy you know in in the world there was a who's best Michael Jackson or Prince you know and then you know in black preacher Natsuki and Baptist Church you know thing was who the main dude and I heard him you know by tapes people recommended with with the clothes on it yeah but when I first heard him in my most memorable sermon of his is just the first sermon I had ever heard him preach I may have been 1415 he come to town for a revival man and he did this thing on the lame man at the gate x3 the danger of stopping at the game and man this is that's how I was just say I was 15 I'm 40 now if I'm in a gym now I could preach this preaching let me shift gears and I'll get back to your present assignment well let me start with your present assignment and I'll work my way back around to this five years in there's another transition in your ministry oh yeah telling me about that I'm itching to get out of Chicago okay and I'm actually we've got our eyes set south we think Texas would be great part of the reason I'm itching to get out of Chicago is because pastor Meeks has been so kind to me mm-hmm and has given me so much that I did not want to serve a Church of Chicago that might serve as an outlet to people who got frustrated with the work at Salem and so I literally looked for everything I could outside of Chicago I didn't make it public I you know just conversations with friends and the light but as as the doors started opening things started brewing at home so pastor Meeks at the time was also a state senator and at its peak for me he ran for mayor and he actually had a decent shot when he was in the early phases of it there and at the same time I was being considered by some churches and other parts of the country and it was very serious well I'm on my way to one of these churches and I get the overwhelming impression in my spirit that this is not it that I'm supposed to go home and I have this Russell my spirit was what is home you know like now is the time to move now is the time to build in transition and the Lord blessed us that Sunday to man I mean it was a major was a major deal that Sunday the way the Lord helped to frame kind of my thinking and also the preaching moment so much so that they told me that they were coming to move me in a couple months and I thought to myself I'm probably never gonna see you guys again and I get back home and literally I feel like I have nothing so the churches in Texas one of Maryland one of Minnesota that I was considering meanwhile there is a guy on the board of directors at Salem named Wallace Sam's Reverend Sims is going to be with the Lord now he grew up and progressive and he would tell me from the time I came to Salem you really need to consider it progressive progressive it had a lot of transition multiple pastors and so I wasn't interested and I furthermore wasn't interested in staying in Chicago did you know of the church just of its reputation had never stepped foot inside okay and it sits in a very prominent location right next to US Cellular Field where the White Sox player and even though you can see it from the expressway I had never stepped foot in this church and so out of a courtesy the Reverend Sam's I expressed interest little did I know that there was some in the church and some on the search committee who were watching my preaching on Salem and so they kind of knew me before I knew them so when it came down to it I got a call on a Sunday night December 19 2010 from mark Dennis who passes the Second Baptist Church in Everson and he says hey man just want to tell you now this is this late at night probably like 10 says man you're the guy at progressive and I said what do you mean I've never been there like I've never preached there I don't know anybody who goes there and furthermore what does Reverend Meeks gonna do when he finds out that I'm the guy somewhere he doesn't even know about yeah so man I I get to Pastor Meeks as quickly as I can I say man I this church is calling me and he says Lolo you know I didn't know I said I didn't know either so he was like you mean to tell me you've never precessing no sir I said I've never stepped foot in the facility he said this might be God and we kept it under wraps for a couple months I went to meet with the committee and the church your sanctuary is beautiful the church in its time when it was built in the late 50s early 60s set four thousand people and no debt one of the the largest strongest african-american churches of its time when the the pastor who's given credit for being the oversee of doing that period when he dies his son takes over it maintains some of its vigor and vitality but it declines and over about twenty years or so it declines real bad and through the calling the entrance and exit of a couple of other pastors that kind of ebbs and flows by the time we get there pastor Charles a sanctuary that would see four thousand people had two hundred people in it on Sunday morning now two hundred is not a laughable number given what the average church size is in America but it was it was in bad shape I'm no resurrector or anything like that I'm just wondering why God would lead me at the time thirty to a church where the average member was about sixty yeah and what we've witnessed has been faith building for me I guess I'll stop there that so I can go in any direction you you want no tell me tell me a little bit about that you get called there so I get called within the last couple of years yeah so I started in March of 2011 and in our first year we saw 500 people join the church numbers really don't mean a whole lot I mean they mean something but they don't tell the full story I should say so when I give you these numbers I'm not saying them to brag or like I got a chip on my shoulder a lot of people who come like a lot of churches they hit a revolving door but 500 people join mr. it literally blows the long-term progressives away in the real sense and it keeps on going so I I recently got a report I think we're somewhere in between 850 950 somewhere in that number of people who come there is a resurgence of enthusiasm in the church but there is enormous difficulty in shepherding through this and trying to figure out because it's almost a blessing and a curse it comes so fast yeah and and some of the people who've been there who are the pillars in the church they feel like they haven't even had enough time to get to know me mm-hmm but yet we have this influx that's outnumbering the people who've been there it's an awkward position and the expectations from both the older crowd and the newer crowd are unrealistic I'm working on a piece now after I get done writing it happens after worship I'm gonna do this piece man and and this is the the truth man I think in our neighborhood alone we've got four or five churches all of that Mount Pisgah Greater Bethesda Evan Issa we're a James Lincoln where 60 years ago these were flagship churches and and with the exception of one or two are literally teetering on the brink of not being viable anymore sure I think the old traditional black Baptist Church needs to partner with young well-trained serious pastors and young well-trained serious pastors need to partner with the old historic traditional black Baptist Church well I was at a conference recently I think and many of the men around me I think many of the men there were church planters and the leader of the conference is a church planter prominent name and they are asking questions in that context and he's answering questions from that context yeah and when you get a question like what do you do when you have this situation when you walk into Church and that and I mean a couple of times he says you know well that's why I started my own church so I wouldn't have to deal with that yeah and I understood that but I just felt a burden because a that is not gonna be many men's experience right that's right I would venture to say most are not called to plant churches right and most one way or another will end up in an established church and there are these churches that have had great decline and with all of the difficulties that go along with that but they are still God's people that's right that's right and they need a pastor mm-hmm and these churches can have a turnaround but I totally agree yeah that it it will take some serious and trained and patient men young men who will come and serve and love and lead and it will take churches yeah that will I don't know another way to say it all take a risk yeah by exciting someone who will not necessarily maintain the status quo yeah and and we'll have enough humility to accept that person as God's leader yeah which I could say that our church has done yeah in a major way because as you know a lot of these stories don't end and beauty but let me speak to this patience thing that you just talked about for a moment cuz that's that's something that a lot of us struggle with if I just may be frank and honest I think the temptation is to go to Divinity School to earn the credentials and to think that you're gonna come out and be this superstar that helps to you know bring life back to these communities in these churches and I and that just might not happen sure yeah and it's it's kind of a letdown when you think about it if you don't prepare for it but I think at least in my own story thus far it's been a process of transformation and sanctification for me because the work that God is doing at that church isn't simply at and for that church it's in my life yeah I think God has a formula for making pastors and you don't just get a degree and become a pastor you actually serve get your butt kicked yeah smell like she get disappointed have great joys yeah and through that process you develop the sensitivity the wisdom the compassion that is required for leading God's people and and that can be a successful story that can be modeled and multiplied that that I totally agree God uses pastors to sanctify the church and God uses churches to sanctify past yes sir I'm in the process the process yeah well praise God man I'm encouraged by that I want to circle back maybe to something else we were talking about because you have your you have a foot in both worlds you've kind of have a background in black church culture and because of your education and then connections and doors God is open you have a foot in the world evangelical world of white church culture and you've been an encouragement to me you know I've been up some of our discussion about those things to just maybe tell me what do you seeing you know in terms of you perceive God is working there or what the challenges are but what just is on your heart about what you're experiencing yeah so you know I'm trading on on I'm trading gently here absolutely that there is a surgeon's right now of african-american preachers and pastors who are trained at white evangelical institutions who are opposing a danger to the african-american church as we know it I think the church at large now let me say this too I I am a critical lover of the church I'm not some guy man who just likes to sit and pontificate on these matters I've given my life to this it might not be long to anybody else just the longest I've ever lived and I've given the whole thing to it man yeah so I'm very serious about what I do and what I'm saying 60 years ago african-american college graduates could not find a welcoming place at the table of white evangelicalism let's just put it out there evangelicalism was being birthed out of american fundamentalism there was confusion over its place and the civil rights movement so forth and so on so a lot of african-american students who wanted training had to go to institutions of higher learning they were not necessarily evangelical and and by evangelical let me clear ly explain what I mean I don't mean you vote Republican mm-hm I don't mean that you identify with certain names I probably shouldn't call but some of the more popular names all I simply mean is bible-believing yeah Bible teaching holding to the foundations of the faith as our talk in scripture through scripture and also with a high view of Scripture yeah which is historically what the african-american church has held on to absolutely but the scholarship the the opportunities to go to these places did not exist at the time and so when the trails are dug in the mud where you go when you leave college and they lead to certain institutions you have a hard time becoming conversant with evangelical scholars I'm gonna start to look down upon it that's that's one angle there in terms of context that is building what's going on now then some of the schools started to open you gordon-conwell Fuller Trinity BTS I don't know but but you see an influx of some African American students going in but you can't really trace the journey of those students back into the black church yeah and and so what ends up happening over time is you you see this assimilation of African American students who go to white evangelical institutions they come out and they don't know the black church anymore and some of them didn't even grow up in the black church it it becomes those guys who I feel like that institution is leaned upon to critique the black church wrong crowd to get to do that I see my position as somewhat unique not I'm not an anomaly there there are plenty of other guys who can do this much better than I but I grew up in the african-american church yeah I love the black Baptist Church man and I also got my degrees of higher learning at a white evangelical institution but I could not convince pastor Charles the boys at Morehouse to consider Trinity right I went on three trips man to help recruit and they all are thinking about Yale Howard other schools Princeton same for me I mean I was headed to yell at one point too but but that is because of the tradition and the trajectory that has been laid but now there's a there is a movement afoot from some who had been trained by white evangelicals to very simply deny the authenticity and the power of the african-american church and you see this in some of the reformed networks that are literally like pulling in guys man who who think that the black church is full of heresy and and that quite frankly is not true I almost feel called to speak out against that and and have conversations with guys lovingly in the like to say that that's just not the case and in some conversations you know you have it's very I would say in black and white church there are easy targets oh yeah of people who don't represent the truth in the white and black church oh yeah you know there's the high profile yes but it's not represents right you know that's of the church culture you grew up in in Chicago right you know the church culture I grew up in in Los Angeles yeah where these people were serious about the Word of God yes serious about the Bible yeah you know you know you can say what you want to about church is being loud and vocal in purgatory in the worship they also use that to keep preachers in line they'd be shut down on you if you veered from the truth right you know but the names of those faithful preachers are not known and I would say historically african-american preachers have not been writers so I mean we we talk growing up about tapes in CD of these guys and hearing them write less than we do about reading yeah what they think and so they're in some degree there is not that written rhetoric that's part of the challenge of doing the critique but you know our history is an oral history sure and so it it is somewhat of a relatively recent phenomenon for more African American evangelicals to write the story sure but you you're right pastor charles to read in these books you you wouldn't hear of EK bailey right you would not hear of Gardner Taylor or Charles Adams and Donald parson or your dad you get these caricatures and so it's obvious that the introduction to the African American church is coming through these varying forms of media but what I'm finding is what I call a philosophical prejudice against the african-american tradition it is this refusal to embrace what is legitimate about it because even though you might not be able to read you still can gain access to it and these scholars are not taking the necessary steps to get that but you are right there is a rich tradition a faithful Bible believing Bible preaching and teaching churches that the saurian ring so you know maybe you're right yeah maybe I will I certainly want to give a part of my life to help telling that story yeah and I will say and I could say this out of our conversations I mean I think we both feel a burden yeah that stole those stories yes need to get out there also forget cross culturally we are still relatively young men but there are there is a generation of young preachers coming up who are also disconnected oh yeah from the faithful tradition of black preaching at all they have come up with are the media high-profile religious personalities and this is what they model their preaching and ministry and philosophy of password' work on and that is not not on what has been true and I think there is the corruption of the black pulpit just among young guys who are disconnected yeah that there is a line of faithfulness yeah that that can be followed yes not this yes new celebrity thing right yeah but you know I think part of part of it too is and this is again man while I'm applauding you for your work in media and getting the story out there some of the celebrities have taken advantage of the same technology that's available to the guys who do it faithfully yeah and and there cannot be this bias or resistance to it so I'm not pushing you to go on national TV when I say I ran into a guy at the airport in Jacksonville he said man why are you here I said man you know I'm coming to visit the Shiloh Church HB oh man I watch him every Sunday since man you know what why don't you go but you're preaching whether you know it or not and I get to say it cuz I'm not you is helping to shape the young black and white for that matter pastor across America and the nation would benefit even more from seeing this on a more regular basis oh man I'm telling you I never kind of no but I'm serious I know guys who have a who have a problem with television this is part of the province of God in my ministry then I got to see what it can do for the truth Spurgeon used to say the quickest way to point out a Crooked Stick is to put a straight stick next to it sure and it costs money yes mm-hmm but given your preaching some of the other names we've mentioned man if that's out there you know it can give the younger guys something to aim for to reach for that's beyond the caricature isn't sure and I appreciate that and I will tell you the growing burden for me and I've been talking to some of our mutual friends about this Romel and I had a recent conversation that is discouraging from me at this point that the guys who are not good examples seem to have a corner on excellence yeah and some young guys yeah are just looking for models of excellence and a lot of the guys the training that who seem to be progressive minded and in those kinds of things are those guys who maybe are a little loose yeah but the truth not committed to Bible exposition and I think you know you know my I'm praying that God will raise up yeah conservative and I mean that theologically sure and take the scriptures simply recently biblical we don't even have to call it conservative this it's biblical but absolutely yep I like I like that word in America to take the Bible seriously will raise up those voice in the african-american church though to give those voices a platform yeah I think he's doing it yeah I really do I really do think that's happening I mean you look at some of the the young pastors yourself included that are gaining wider avenues of exposure who are faithful and responsible with the text of Scripture it's happening yeah it doesn't hurt that you can walk into any context and make it talk but but it's happening isn't but I think the other side of that man is to fulfill the opportunity that God has given building a great ministry so that you're not just known for your preaching but when people come to visit your church and whatever city you serve they don't find the church in this repair sure building a great ministry program so that the community in which you serve doesn't just know you as a great preacher sure but they know you for your works as a church and and so we do miss that man me you know some hands you you got the guy who's got who's doing ministry well you know he's not holding the water right in the pulpit I think you've got a great opportunity to do both and I hope that God will give us an opportunity at Chicago to do the same grace God man I appreciate this conversation man thank you urghhh meant to you to me to have you here and I am with just as we begin to get to know each other man your testimony and what God has been doing in your life with such an encouragement to you and I've just fallen in love with you man I appreciate your humility as well because I get a chance to meet I guess I could say there's now 40 younger guys and a lot of the younger guys got it going on and there did just have huge egos and it's a turn-off and I was just the more I learned about you I'm just more encouraged by your humility openness your personal that's not I just was I've been praying for you and praying for you here man from Jacksonville man to have you in town thank you interrupting the little bit of private time myself and I appreciate it man and I'm praying for you if someone listening wanted to know more about your ministry how to contact you tell us ww progressive Chicago org yeah you can find out all the information about our church how to get a hold of me there and on twitter at charlie dates all right man pretty soon thanks again man all the best thank you thank you for watching

Channel: Cutting It Straight with H.B. Charles Jr.

Views: 18,847

Rating: 4.9041915 out of 5

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Id: KBiinbBzb_A

Length: 57min 20sec (3440 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 09 2014