Cardinal Timothy Dolan and Rabbi Peter J. Rubinstein: The Genius of Religion

[Music] [Applause] thank you it's a real honor to be here this evening and I especially because their friends want to thank the lanes Jeffrey and Nancy for having uh sponsored this wonderful event I have the great honor and pleasure to introduce and tell you something about our revered guest this evening his Eminence Timothy Cardinal Dolan Cardinal Dolan is great not because of his prominent position and the title he holds as the Archbishop of New York but he is extraordinary because in the context of this evening he embodies genius in a way of people and relationships he embodies excellent in both vision and principle he elicits from those who know him what no vestments or office can elicit that being the tremendous affection and I would say yes even the love that has galvanized around him since his arrival in New York City in 2009 those of us who are within his Circle are beneficiaries of his enormous far-reaching and generous embrace and so with gratitude for his joining us ladies and gentlemen it is a great pleasure to introduce my friend our friend his Eminence Timothy Cardinal Dolan way to go thank I'll expect thank you everybody your eminence I should tell this audience that Cindy Adams asked you why didn't you do better with the weather to which your response was I'm in sales not management right don't you forget it don't you forget it thank thank you for that gracious introduction my you could have gone on forever I and your your former congregants tell me a times you have you should just be aware when rabbis take off their watches trouble if he takes out his pocket calendar we're in trouble right so this evening uh the topic that has been given to us is the genius of religion and I think it's always interesting for anybody to hear the story of a person and so why don't we begin with you what was it that tugged you into the priest prood and into the position that you are now in fact uh what was it that illuminated you was there some aspect of genius and and Catholicism that made a difference for you there would be can I say first of all as a little ATI pasta how grateful I am to be here it brings back happy memories I was here a couple years ago with we were trying to think of the name of the magnificently U impressive woman a rabbi from the West Coast better looking yeah and we had a we had a very good time and so thank you for inviting me back I I have such admiration for what you do here at the Y and to be part of this uh the rabbi and I are both wondering how we get in under the rubric of Genius but we're we're sure grateful for the thoughtfulness thanks for the question Peter you know um all right what attracted me to the priesthood I guess you're asking what sustained my faith what sparked it I would have to say family one of the ways that that Jews and Catholics are very much alike is that we inherit our faith and even though we both believe that faith is a gift from God the vehicle of that gift is more often than not our family uh so for a Catholic for a Jew you're born into the faith and so I would have I I would consider it the greatest blessing in my life that I was born into a a very happy healthy normal Catholic Family in no way were we Uber Catholics okay my mom and dad were just kind of basic meat and potato Catholics who wouldn't miss Sunday mass wouldn't uh begin a meal without without uh a prayer before uh before the meal uh we wouldn't go to bed without saying our prayers it was not flashy it was far from arrogant my mom and dad were very funloving people but in that very in that very fact Peter they would have taught me that religion was just something that was part of you religion was natural religion was good religion was enjoyable now that was deepened in the parish in which I was raised you know for Catholics you would belong to a parish I belong to a parish in Balwin Missouri that actually was founded the year we moved out there I was four years old in 1954 when Dad thanks to a GI Bill loan was able to buy a little house for $11,000 where we were raised and the parish was founded that year and the parish became the center of our life the the neighborhood was rather was was pretty predominantly Catholic so the parish became the center I'm talking about I'm just not talking about worship I'm talking about school I'm talking about sports I'm talking about socials uh you name it the parish provided it and so once again you see what's going on here religion religion for me naturally became not something out there not something extrinsic not something imposed or not something impressive but something very natural something that kind of came from within and was just part of being part of living so it was natural I think because growing up in a happy wholesome family as I did and being very moved by the priests in my Parish that before too long I uh started talking about being a priest and that desire was tremendously supported see in the culture the sub culture in which I was raised once again never never any uh anything uh oppressive or never anything uh pushed upon me but a very natural affirmation of a desire that I felt comfortable enough expressing that I'd like to be a priest and that's how I think it happened you know my recollection and you'll of course um correct me if I'm wrong is that when you were made Cardinal your mother said oh Tim he deserves it and and and even more um which allowed me to call her the first Catholic Jewish [Laughter] mother I remember so you know when talking about religion is and when you began you talked about religion with such ease and and that I think at the very outset raises a question for us we we talk about religion as a collective as a you know covering Under the Umbrella everything that is going to title itself as religion are we able to do that anymore I mean are is it that we are all that the genius of whatever religion is falls into every religious specifically as well as to the entire nature of religion generally it gets a little difficult if this is what you're getting at Rabbi uh that to speak generically of religion anymore is a little challenging isn't it uh Religion Today is so fractured and in some way ways what you might call the science or the discipline uh of religious sociology which would be the scholarly study of the very nature of religion has gotten so complicated and I'm glad it is it's that this is a this is a good development that more and more we're a little more Tongue Tied when speaking about religion collectively um what do we mean by it religion of course if faith comes from God as we believe it does religion comes from us so religion at least in the Catholic understanding religion would be the duty the sense of the sense of gratitude the sense of obligation that we feel in the face of an overwhelmingly generous and loving God uh that when we that when we comprehend with immense awe uh how loving and how generous and how gracious and how merciful how good God is uh we sense an obligation we we sense a duty religion of course comes from that Latin word meaning to tie to bind so these would be the these would be the ties the binds that we have in our relationship to God a natural desire to return something to God now that impulse Rabbi that impulse of that sense of of gratitude and the sense of the awesome goodness of God I think we can talk about that collectively can't we but religion itself seems to have become so so complicated that maybe it's difficult to speak generically like we used to yeah well we we come back to some of what I think to you were I guess referring and we all know for instance we look at the United States the role of religion very often for instance President Eisenhower is quoted who's saying religion is essential to the American Enterprise and I don't care which one it is now that would be an example of speaking of religion generic way saw in terms of the wrestling about the constitution in terms of what religion here but um the vocabulary has expanded and and quite honestly even though I'm in the profession find it difficult so people are equating religion spirituality faith belief yeah as though they're equivalent I mean how h i mean I have my sense but how would you differentiate between religion and spirituality for instance and and religion and Faith or um any of the words that are now become common for an equivalent with two religions I agree with the rabbi the the uh Theus is becoming very diverse today and what do we mean sometimes we're tempted to use these words interchangeably and you're on to something in that we we we need to be a little bit more precise so what do we mean by these different words faith of course is the gift from God that we believe in him and we trust in him okay that's a a gift that would be instilled within us a religion as I just mentioned would be our sense of return our sense of obligation to the lavish goodness of God spirituality would be at least in in the in the Catholic ethos a sense of of how we pray how we uh aspire to uh to have a better relationship with God and how we worship him all right the Creed of course would be another word that we we use which would just almost be your religious preference your religious denomination all these of course bring to the four something that is an immense challenge to religious leaders and that's what you've got in front of you uh this evening to pastors men who love their faith and who who cherish their vocation to to help other people grow in faith in that today pardon the bromide but it's it's very it's it's true as most bromides are that's why they're bromides pardon the cliche that today we live in an era that has no trouble at all believing but has a big trouble belonging now a sense of belonging is something intrinsic to a genuine religious belief at least in the Jewish Christian tradition uh our God has chosen to reveal himself as preferring to deal with us as a people as a group as a family so a sense of belonging to that that a sense of belonging to a a tradition a community the church to use our word for us would be essential to the religious proposition contemporary women and men don't seem to share that particularly the younger ones now that folks is a big challenge it's a challenge for all organized religion it's a particularly pointed challenge for organized religion and here's two of them that is inherited that is passed on from one generation to another the rat neither the rabbi norai chose he didn't choose to be Jewish I didn't choose to be Catholic I quote Jesus we quote Jesus who said you didn't choose me I chose you and we believe God chose us um that's tough today because our young people would would seem to believe believe that if religion is going to be genuine there has to be a personal choice it cannot be presumed it cannot be taken for granted I think both the rabbi and I would say there's some truth there and that both of our Traditions would say it is essential that even though we inherit our faith part of religious maturity is that you freely integrated you fre AC interesting because when you talked about what brought you in you mentioned Community after family I mean it was something that it was part you were part of a a um a parish that embraced you uh this issue of community is very much antithetical to people's view of spirituality which tends to be a somewhat individual sometimes narcissistic uh you got it would be hyper individualistic today wouldn't it now you all know if you look at your kids and your grandkids that that's just not true about religion if you're at the dinner table that's a community odds are they're on their what do you call it okay so they're they're not plugged into the community at hand they've created some type of U uh uh what do they call that trans Community yeah they've created a technical community perhaps which by the way tells us something that even though we might be hyper individualistic there's still that yearning to belong and to communicate but the Trad traditional communities in which I grew up and which I find so sustaining and which for me I think was God's vehicle of handing on the faith to me namely Family Parish a sense of cohesion shared values we both got it shared feasts uh uh an appreciation for nature and the cycles of the seasons that give rise to our holy days and all those meant so much to me and those today are questioned by the way Rabbi I think you'd agree that's enhanced in the American setup which is more calvinistic right you're not a calvinist neither am I say but the American religious experience would be heavily calvinistic which would tend to be a little bit more individualist and a little bit more I freely choose uh uh my my own religion it's not inherited so that is always made Catholics and Jews a little bit of Outsiders in the American religious experience and I think has led to a hyper individualism that we see well I I remember growing up in the Bronx is where I there may be some of others of you that did very few I mean the the neighborhood was was a parish right where there were the Jewish neighborhoods there were the Italian Catholic neighborhoods there were the Irish there was a great sense of belonging to in a way tribal and that sense of tribalism that sense of belonging to a community whether it was defined by neighborhood or now the modern word which is community was hugely important supporting all of us we we knew where to play stickball we knew where we could we knew where to have dinner whose mother was doing better at cooking um I I think that this I think this is a real tension we we know from the the studies that have been G uh done that for this what we call the millenni iial generation 30% of them Define themselves as nuns that's not your kinds of nuns but yes nuns um and which is Hu it's huge it's onethird of that Community um by the way it's a cross religious def onethird of that age group is not willing to to Define itself to identify itself as part of any any religious group that's right so let me deal with this raise the question about this individuality religion in some way was um was formatted to help the the soul right we each in what both our Traditions are born with the soul and there was a sense that the human being needed something more than themselves in terms of commandment in terms of community in terms of morality um in that regard if we talk about the genius of of religion what did our religious Traditions understand about the individual and the human soul yeah Biggie and this that and because this gets to the whole core of of the religious proposition and gives us hope everybody because what I'm about to say in an attempt to respond to the rabbi's question will I I we would all believe cannot disappear disappear from from Humanity because it's part it's part of the human drama it may be disguised for a while it might be eclipsed for a while but it can never completely disappear because the philosophers the great wise uh students of human nature who never heard of Judaism who never heard of Catholicism will posit that essential to the human person is a longing for the beyond that we are to use a contemporary phrase we are hardwired for God that we were created for him and that ultimately we're never going to be completely happy until we're United with him for all eternity uh throughout life we are tempted to find that fulfillment in other things some of them very good because they remind us of him some of them not so good because they distract us from him that's called morality trying to distinguish between those two but we can never disguise we can never disguise the the fact that the human person is created with a hole in his heart and I'm not talking about a cardiac problem here I'm talking about a spiritual problem that every man and woman comes in feeling sensing a certain amount of a lack of completion that there's something else I need the religious person will soon discover no there's really some one else I need and that person is God now I would say that's a given fact empiricists would say well most people don't act that way but there's nothing new there most of us don't well most a good number of us don't respond to the better angels of our nature we don't go to the dentist do we we don't vote those are things we ought to do well we also ought to be seeking God because it's a it's an ingrain part of our very person our very being our very identity the very fact that we're a human being for us we often quote St Augustine who says we come from you oh God and our hearts are restless until they return to you for all eternity I don't think anybody said it better than your psalmist who who speak over and over again and the the the most uplifting prayers ever written the Jewish Psalms to speak about that longing my soul is thirsting for you oh God you don't have to be a Mystic for that you don't have to be a saint for that you don't have to be a rabbi for that you don't have to be a cardinal for that uh just to realize that there's a yearning there's a hunger there's a thirst within me and that of course is a sign of our longing for God that's where religion that's where the Gen of religion comes from and no matter how Pagan we get no matter how mechanical we get no matter how secular we get we're not going to lose that because it's it's part of our DNA you agree I do agree but I would say that I bet much of the Jewish community that may be here this evening is really struggling with the idea that we return to God that there's an eternality and immortality which you mentioned which is you're absolutely correct it's part of both of our Traditions Christianity took it from us we Bor right we we play we' bored a lot of librarys okay did um which is why we get along so you got it uh but I I would just there not a time I don't want to discuss that but the fact is what what his Eminence was saying is so true for the Jew for in Jewish thought that the soul does return to God and that there while the body will die the the soul does not right and and that's uh something that Jews especially liberal modern Jews struggle with so but let's push this a little further please the the issue of you know as you said in this in this country at least uh the calvinist overview is that we're individuals and that we have a right we're in a certain way responsible for everything that we are and everything that we accomplish right and and the so the question is if that's true so what is God's and what is ours when it comes for instance to free choice can one have at the same time a sense of Providence and and and free choice right what is predetermined and what is not what is the role in our own lives and what is God's this is philosophy folks did you know you were getting this this is the philosophers asked this I I think of the the ones we we had to study in school I'm thinking of bethus for instance you giving me credit that I actually studied this you you but but what we're talking about is the uh the classical clash between God's omnipotence and man's Freedom the freedom of men and women uh for a Jew and a Catholic we would believe very much that God is omnipotent he is all powerful he's all knowing all is in his providential hand we also believe that he gave us Free Will and that we have the freedom to choose and that we have the freedom to love or reject him and how you how you uh can balance how you can choreograph what seem to be two powers that are that are existing uh almost clashing is a tough one and philosophers who spent a lot of time doing it people who are real gen Geniuses whose names are probably up on that wall I would reckon that uh that Plato and Aristotle are up there somewhere these are the true Geniuses that have spent a lot of papyruses uh talking about this clash between human freedom and Divine Providence different religious Traditions as the rabbi hinted at will give a nod a little more while holding both will give a little bit more emphasis to one or the other um but the the answer comes in what to use the Latin phrase the vadia the middle way where you could balance the two of them that God is omnipotent God is omniscient but he has decreed he has willed that his omnipotence and his omniscience that we would be vehicles of that and that our Free Will would be an agent of extending his omnipotence and his omn I I don't know if that makes any sense our free choices then to be in Conformity or not to his Divine will that becomes the moral imperative for anyone who would take his or her relationship with the Lord to be normative in one's life the free choices I make are they consonant with what he's told us about himself God and about ourselves and about the destiny that he has I think you call that the law and the prophets yeah I think um you know Jews are somewhat ambivalent we often will say uh when something we believe is faded a good marriage they say we'll say Basher right it's Basher what does that mean it well it means it's faded but the thing about the Jewish sense of Basher is that Jews will only say it after it happened right yeah right we never say it's going to be Basher that ah sure uh you know so we're real geniuses right regard um but I I um the Jew also has the sense of we have two inclinations in us the inclination for good and the inclination for evil the yahar the yov and that we we need both different from the sense that we're inherently sinful that we need both and it is and Free Will is making the decision is to where you are on that fulcrum MH um so it's a real sense of that and I think and maybe we'll have a chance to come back to this it is really a question how you determine what is sacred and holy is that God's work or is that our work um but in a way of edging ourselves into that conversation we're living at a a challenging time H A Time In which religion which you know markx called the op of people is right probably now in many people's minds the annihilation of people uh we're watching what's happening in in the Middle East with Isis we're growing huge growth of anti-Semitism the the the killing of Christians uh for the you know probably has gone on forever but now attention has been brought to it what is it that creates religions going Ary right what what is there a fault line there is there something that we can point to and and and therefore be cautionary about in terms of our own faith that causes that to happen is there what what happens to the genius of religion in those regards look neither of us are going to have the complete answer to that but we have to ask that question right when you I I hope I hope it would be clear from the two of us that we both believe religion we both believe faith is extraordinarily important to the human project to us as individuals to us as a people it's at the very core of what it means to be a human person it also because it is so essential uh to humanity it also is explosive it is something like the atom that can be split and used nuclear power to cure cancer or to level level Hiroshima it is something that can be used for good or for evil because it is so close to the most explosive uh Force ever Unleashed namely uh human reason and human Freedom it is so it's such it's such part of us that it can be abused it can be perverted it can be misused this of course complicates what the rabbi and I hinted at a challenge that we have big time in that we're losing many of our young people who are choosing to believe but not belong so the the polls will tell us that belief in God is still high very high faith is very high belonging to a synagogue or a parish is not belonging to the church or to one's religious tradition is not this is exacerbated everybody because of the nauseating uh uh perversion of religion that we see all around us when relig religion becomes a source of hatred and division when religion becomes an excuse to behead and to rape and to call for the extermination of a Nation or to despise a race of people or one's religious belief as it is today no wonder religion doesn't have a very good reputation now my boss Pope Francis has made it one of the projects of his pontificate to restore the luster of religious belief and in very blunt terms he speaks about the fact that anyone who would use religion for hatred or to beat someone down or to kill someone or to hurt someone uh that's not religion at all that's a perversion of what religion is all about and that religion in at its core is only what raises us up and affirms what is good and decent and Noble and liberating and lifegiving in the human person religion does that that's why I'm so grateful and why I jumped at the invitation do you know the S relief that I let out when I saw that this magnificent instit ution was listing religion in its seven days of Genius that at least there's one place that still considers religion as contributing to the genius of humanity because that is true religion that is pure religion what we see today what we will see tomorrow you and I know as I I'll bet you lunch money tomorrow that that you and I will will tomorrow open the papers and see some atrocity somewhere in in the name of religion now that's not religion we can't deny that these misguided people feel that they're acting in the name of religion but we can't so subjectively we can't deny that they're not they don't think they think that they're acting as a result of their faith but objectively we can say say factually that's not religion that's not Faith because um that's not what God intends that's not what he has revealed I so of the many things for which I praise almighty God in the gift of the current Holy Father Pope Francis this almost daily attempt to reclaim the the the uh the nature of religion as loving and affirming and embracing to me is particularly needed and it's something for which I'm very grateful for his leadership I you know I love that you brought up Pope Francis um because you know in one way part when we think about the genius of religion we have to think of the Gen the geni the the Geniuses of of our Traditions or those that we considered um of that stature um you've mentioned something about Pope Francis and I think I can elicit from that a sense of why you would consider him a genius I think from my perspective as an outsider it is his attempt to balance the traditions and and the anchors with the realities of a new world are there other people when you look think back over both your theological education but even more so your general education who are the people that you would think of as being a genius in in in this in this yeah the the we'd all I think we would all there'd be two categories of geniuses what's the plural of Genius gen I think but it doesn't sound right Geniuses will work for the plural the plural uh there are two categories of geniuses I think in our life one would be ones that we just know about these would be the ones we study so obviously for me uh your great Heroes would be Geniuses Abraham Isaac Jacob Moses David the prophets Jesus for me Jesus would be the the premier genius uh the our great Saints the Saints whom I love and admire uh Mary the mother of Jesus St Joseph her her spouse the Saints of our of our Catholic Pantheon those would be kind of um those would be kind of dis not distant Jes the for for us the Saints and especially Jesus you couldn't get closer but those those would be almost the the uh the Geniuses within that we remember and recall but then we got Geniuses that we know and we can't underestimate them and how blessed are those and I would consider myself one that that can point to Geniuses who were very much a part of their life so when I think of my own father for instance who dropped dead at work at 51 years of age the older I get the more I realize he was a genius I don't mean a genius in winning the Templeton Prize or a Nobel Prize I mean a genius who had his life together uh I mean a wise man uh who knew where he stood with God and who knew he loved his wife and his children and who worked hard and was admired for his integrity and his generosity and his loyalty to God to Country to to family to friends to Parish to church that's a genius I would know I'm thinking of the sisters the religious women the nuns uh who would have come from Ireland to teach me when I was a boy I'm thinking of my Parish priests uh these would be Geniuses that as I look back I'm I'm thinking Rabbi is some of the teachers that I had that I can remember what they said and what they taught so geniuses are not distant historical figures that we only recall in memory all of us have been blessed with Geniuses and the ability to to tag them and to recognize them is a great a great gift I wonder in my book Rabbi thank you for referring to Pope Francis as a genius and he's a genius because he doesn't think he is he so he's an extraordinarily simple sincere humble man who would not believe he's a saint who would not believe he's holy who would not believe he's a genius but in saying that of course he is isn't he as your wisdom literature would tell us the fool doesn't think he is the wise man knows that he has moments of foolishness Pope Francis is a genius because he doesn't think he is and we all sit back and say yes you are and uh and keep at it because we need you very much but we're all blessed with those kind of folks aren't we yeah you know I think that part of uh when you speak about Francis I I was thinking that part of his genius is courage that when it comes to religious genius whether one thinks about Martin Luther King for instance or sister Teresa I mean part of their genius is courage mhm um it's not only the thought it's not only the the belief but it's the action MH and I I just you know I think of I think of that I had a professor uh not well known uh so I'll just pay honor to him by mentioning his name Henry simsky who actually taught me heard you speak of him a very significant lesson which is he said you know I don't believe in God but I believe in Jeremiah and Jeremiah believed in God it's good enough for me so because I think that that's part of you know part of the struggle that we all have and um and and so you know I I would U by the way somebody asked me who my my genius would be he's a man that nobody in this congregation in this oh I'm sorry audience he'll be calling for corre next um uh no is a man by the name of Y Ben that guy who lived in the first century CE and was singularly responsible for the survival of for the creation of Judaism what what's his name yanan Ben zakai what part of Ireland was he from he was from um he was from the Jerusalem Parish of um but was one who was courageous in and rethinking what old institutions what they were not doing in but that's a maybe next year I'll give a lecture and we talk about the The Genius of the people we like best that one where to go we've gotten a few questions great don't don't don't applaud us we might be back I can't see yeah now I'm I'm looking out see the uh it's a full house isn't it this is phenomenal well horrible as far as light are concerned as far as the eye can see it's full house thanks for coming out this this is good this is I I just want to read um it's actually one quote and ask you to respond to it and then we're going to get to the audience's questions by the way I'll give you a um preliminary view of the first question is what's the best a rabbi and a priest enter a bar joke that you've ever [Laughter] [Applause] heard but before we get to that if if ever we do get to that um the one of my favorite books is uh it's called in the days of Simon Stern by author Cohen I may be the only person ever read it um he says he tells a story it's called the parable of the last Jew on Earth and he says there are many times that need Messiahs but time skips over the moment and the Messiah waiting ready in the shadows does not appear I have told you the story of a fulfilled moment it is when God flees that we have tragedy but it is as well the occasion when genius risking the little that a man can share holds back tragedy until God regains his courage and Returns what do you think yeah see is that not the nature of faith we were talking about faith earlier faith is easy when things are going fine faith is easy when God's presence seems so evident faith is difficult when you're at SLO kering watching your little child in chemotherapy uh that's when God seems absent for your for your people Rabbi Faith must have been easy at the Crossing of the Red Sea Faith wasn't so easy during the 40 years in the desert that's when they would say where are you God we have the one we believe was the only begotten Son of God who on the cross yelled out my God my God why have you forsaken me quoting a he himself wondered where God was that of course is where faith comes through now I don't know if that's very revolutionary you husbands and wives know that don't you when you so I hear I don't you that's what I always tell Rabbi Peter said you know you and I are so much alike we do so many things that are similar we can do so many of the good things but I said there's one thing I can do that you can't and he always says what's that I said I can kiss your wife you can't kiss mine and I did where is she I did earlier look no but you did say I could kiss your ring you heard ring but the uh but that you husbands and wives tell me that that it's at the moments when you're wondering about the depth of your love when you're wondering can it can can it endure it's in strained times where Fidelity and love are really tried and in the long run as the again the Jewish Psalms say as they're they're put into this furnace and purified and that of course is true with faith isn't it it's that that magnificent quote brought forth way to go yeah so I'm going to ask uh some of the could you okay yes you you can or don't need to tell a joke about um why don't you take me for out for a drink after this and we'll do one on our okay well maybe we'll get we've done that before we we created the jok the the nice thing about us is we both think the other one's funny and [Laughter] we'll so so um let me let me um and you are by the way you honestly thank you you a bad yourself uh the question is you did not list mysticism as part of religious experience how does the mystery in quotes of religion affect genius very good question whoever asked that you know what mysticism means and I don't know Peter if it's the same in the Jewish understanding for us as a Catholic obviously the goal of life would be Union with God forever and all eternity for us at this Earth in our Exodus here on Earth and our soldier and here on Earth we would have rare times where we feel extraordinarily close to God now I don't know about you those to me those times don't come very often all right periodically they will and very often I recognize them in retrospect uh and that's mysticism so mysticism for a Catholic anyway would be that stage of prayer if prayer is Union with God a union of heart mind and soul with God mysticism would be those rare extraordinary moments when we sense that we are united with with him now the Saints would have that more often I haven't I think I met one Mystic in my life and that would be Pope John Paul II met him as well and to to go into his Chapel in the morning at 7:00 for mass and to go in there and to see him kneeling uh where which he had been for an hour and to see that you could almost sense he was in a mystical trance and you could hear him groaning and you could see him at times crying or you could see him smiling and you're thinking something's going on he wasn't trying to show off he did didn't even know we were there um that's that's mysticism now um we can't count on those High moments the possibility the fact and the possibility of mysticism to me would be an essential part of the religious genius so whoever asks this question is on to something I sometimes worry Peter that we um and this might be one of the problems we got today in that people think since mystical Union with God rarely happens or since Perfection rarely happens or since sanctity rarely happens therefore I mustn't be very good at religion I mustn't be very good at Faith and I must stop I can quit trying so you got a lot of nuns in a wies because they'd say well it's not working for me I haven't really ever had a Mystic IAL experience I've never been in a trance I've never uh been known for my charity or my patience I sure try but so people are tempted to say oh I guess religion isn't for me of course religion is is for Sinners religion is for failures religion is for those who are trying and who realize that we can only do it with God's grace and mercy so I guess maybe the question was why I didn't mention mysticism sometimes I'm a little paranoid about it because I don't want people to think especially people that maybe are on the periphery and wondering ah I've never had much luck with this religion stuff because they've caricatured it as these mystical experiences are the this constant Perfection and virtue one of the reasons they're turned off by religion is because they don't see that that in people who profess to be Believers or people of Faith so that's probably why I didn't mention it but he's sure on to some Mystic what's I don't know what what's the Jewish experience of mysticism well it's somewhat complicated because in Judaism there's a school of thought called cabala which is Jewish mysticism and and it is as much a study as it is an experience uh as a matter of fact it was forbidden in in traditional text it was forbidden for anybody to study mysticism cabala until unless you were male over the age of 40 there was a sense that it could drive you crazy wow and so the the the study um by the way if one go there's something called the spat syndrome and the Jerusalem syndrome in which people there may have been many here who've been suit fat the people who go there CU that's where the grave of the purported founder the mystical mov movement is buried that have just have just left reality they are they are living in in a um now some would say they're also on drugs which are helping them but um but there but it's it's a syndrome in which you become so attracted to that which is outside of reality that you give up any any coping any touch with what's real um so I think mysticism the study of Jewish mysticism is for scholar and it is it's highly significant it'd be more intellectual then for you more intellectual um sometimes mysticism and as I hear you uh talk about it mysticism for you would be the ability at times to detach from the rational right for us to enter a different Zone yeah in which we leave behind the rational and and and and have a Transcendent feeling and almost leave behind the Earthly right be some with something Beyond ourselves yes right uh some people would call that prayer but it but it is that sense and and it is also and and this I mentioned this book to you uh it's called The Bride Abyss by Christian W oh yeah you were talking about it before that was quoted in David Brooks oped piece in which he talks about you can't really keep that feeling when a baby's born for throughout your life wow there's a certain mystery in the birth of a child my own mind and and even sadly in the death of somebody who's dear to you yep and our lives therefore can't be at that level all the time and that's in a certain way where faith comes in yeah right because you just we need to move on beyond that yeah so um you know one of the things that I think we should leave this we're not there yet but think uh for ourselves in order to prepare is if there was one line that we would take with us or one line that we say to each to ourselves every day that kind of helps anchor Us in in in our faith what that would be sure I think this issue of mysticism is a is a an absolutely um U appropriate question yes so um another question with the challenges that face the world today the need to come together is greater than ever does not religion divide people into groups of us and them and support the opposite of coming together it can can't it and it can and look there's no denying it does it shouldn't is what we'd say it shouldn't um because at the essence is there a certain Us and Them to religion yeah let's face it you if you identify Yourself by your religious belief there's a certain cohesion a certain Allegiance certain value values that you would claim for yourself true religion of course one of those values that you would claim for yourself and for your religion your faith your church one of those values is what to love and respect those of others that's a very high religious tenant for anybody who takes religion seriously so if that happens then um then religion is a source of bringing people together very interesting we believe God can bring good out of evil we see a lot of evil today particularly when it comes to religious persecution whether that be what what has been called christianophobia orchestrated systematic attempt to exterminate Christians whether that that be the the terribly tragic and unfortunate but verifiable Rise Again of vicious anti-Semitism that Pope Francis has spoken about some something called the ecuminism of the martyrs you know what those two words means ecuminism is a fancy word meaning religious friendship bringing different religions together this is very the rabbi and I would call this acumenical this evening Martyrs are those who would die for the faith what we've got now is an ecuminism of Martyrs because when we see Jews and Christians together in the crosshairs of fanatical snipers we feel the bond don't we because we know somewhere at this very moment a Jew or a Christian are for that matter a temperate Muslim uh a true mlim is in the crosshairs of a fanatic that gives us a solidarity realizing that we're all in that precarious posture that gives us a solidarity that brings us closer uh and I see that happening throughout the world something happened the other day that could not have happened uh except after the tragedy of those 21 most of them were 19y old boys 21 uh Egyptian Christians who were beheaded by ISIS in in Libya that the leader of the Islamic community in Egypt went to visit the Coptic patriarch the head of their branch of Christianity to extend a sympathies to pray with him and for him and to reach out to one another in friendship that couldn't happen without that horrible martyrdom so Pope Francis has described this acumin ISM of martyrdom and enhanced friendship among religions because now we are all being targeted my good buddy um Rabbi he's going to come in the spring and I I want to get a group of us together to meet him he's the Archbishop in um J Jos Nigeria ignacius kyama is his name that's right smack dab in the middle of where boo Haram is is active he Ignatius kayama my buddy who's the Archbishop there in his area it's 50% Islam it's 50% Catholic and they get along very well and boo Haram targets both of them even though boo Haram is is mostly an Islamic extremist group when the Muslims in the village will go to help the Catholics rebuild their little church that was torched by boo Haram those Muslims will be uh harassed and persecuted and perhaps killed by boo Haram our Bishop kayama says the Muslims and the Catholics have never been closer in his area because they're both being targeted by this vicious extremist group so you can see that perhaps some of this that that that sometimes we have to admit religion does divide and exacerbate tension at its core it's meant to bring us together and when people do warp the true the value of True Religion God can bring some good out of it so you know I'm asking this uh of you as a friend um you want money again you need money again no drinks are on me tonight um if there um the if you if there was a moment where in your life you felt this breath of of awe and aha that something for the it dawned on you that the that religion and the genius of it just was so apparent to you and not that it isn't always but that just took your breath away yeah they'd be rare I have to admit that sometimes they're only discoverable when somebody asks a question like you do uh and most of the time they're only visible in hindsight that's why meditation that's why reflection that's why prayer is so important because you you you take a little that's why the Sabbath is so important correct correct you stop each week to say I wonder where God's been this week where's he where's he been into my life yeah I can remember one that then I nurse the ones that I have and one aha moment for me would have been in September of 1972 when I I was 22 years old and I had left home to continue my studies for the priesthood at the North American college in Rome and I was desperately homesick I had left the family I'm the oldest to five I left the family that I loved I knew I'd be gone for four years my family didn't have much money they wouldn't be able to come see me uh they had I had broken up with the girlfriend all of that stuff I was desperately homesick all right and I was really on the verge of wondering if God was telling me I wasn't meant to be a priest I kept saying you know if you you're if I'm this unhappy is this your nudge that I'm not supposed to be here and an aha moment came when uh a month into the stay there all of us the first year men went to Ace you've heard of Ace aisi is the little town in Umbria made famous by Francis St Francis and I tell you Peter nothing special except that on the first Saturday morning we we got there on a Friday and when I got up early I wasn't sleeping that well and I when I walked down to the Basilica of St Francis and I looked at J's frescos which give the life of when I prayed at his tomb when I heard the franciscans who were there chanting the Psalms and when I went outside and looked at the umbrian plane that was down below me with just this masterpiece of color and Beauty as Francis would have looked at it it clicked it clicked and I I felt I felt the hand of God I felt The Whisper Of God I felt the touch of God saying to me uh Timothy it's all right you are my beloved Son and this will work out trust in me that was an aha moment those don't happen too often do they but boy when they do you relish them especially for those of us who are living through the lives of so many other people to have it for ourselves yeah is rare I I mean the moment for me was when I was at a a friend's bone marrow transplant W and they deliver in a you know looks like a sealed freezer bag the what is going to be is actually the life of someone else to be inserted in the in in the the the person who who's going to depend on it and I realize Not only was this beyond anything that I've ever thought of spiritual or Heavenly or Godlike but I so understood the power of ritual that there there and I and we did there was a reason we said a prayer and and suddenly I realized in a in a whole new way how our Traditions our prayers were given birth by people who were facing the same mystery the same loss the same joy that we were and we are the happy recipients of that Legacy of that Legacy that tradition and would you not say that one of the greatest joys of ministry that you and I are privileged to share in is to hear other people share with us their aha moments it's it you know it's it's our life yeah um so I I I just will ask one last question sure and that is if we could um if you could leave this this audience with a line that they could take with them um perhaps to mle over one from tradition what would it be um I I'm going to plagiarize from your Psalms they're ours thank you um only in God Is My Soul at rest only in God Is My Soul at rest that to me says it all that's what this longing this hole in the heart that we're speaking of only in God Is My Soul at rest uh that to me is extraordinarily important yeah what about yourself well there's it's the last line of a song that Jews sing practically every week and and never read the translation so they have no you know we don't generally know what we're saying I've I've noticed that generally you don't know how to sing either yes we're in the same chorus um the U the the line is in Hebrew adoi Le IR it's the last line of the Adon Alum song and it and it means uh God is with me and I will not be afraid wow and for me that's if there's I say it every day it's every time that there's something that's happen happening that I just don't want to be alone or when I see you know somebody in my family that I love I just feel the need to say I'm Not Alone um and and I I would say that um you have I I consider you a genius as I said at the beginning in in your personhood and your relationship and Peter could that not be part of the genius of this this why this this reminds us all that we're not alone that things like culture and friendship Mutual understanding the Arts music listening to people with respect we're not alone and there's there's a there's a touch of the Divine here isn't there I believe there is and and I am grateful to the why for having had the genius to bring us together but I'm grateful that you're working for why yeah so um in in conclusion I want to um thank all of you for being here again the lanes for having sponsored this evening I I would beg of you to be careful going home yeah be careful going home and I would hope that you would join me and thanking uh this great leader of New York thank you [Music] all

Channel: 92NY Plus

Views: 13,302

Keywords: 92Y, 92nd Street Y, Cardinal (Religious Leadership Title), Timothy M. Dolan (Religious Leader), Religion (TV Genre), Rabbi (Profession)

Id: 1lMk4AedFtE

Length: 64min 51sec (3891 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 05 2015