Can bread be healthy? With Vanessa Kimbell and Tim Spector

[Music] welcome to zoe science and nutrition where world leading scientists explain how their research can improve your health [Music] it is no exaggeration to say that bread created modern humanity archaeologists in the middle east have found fossilized breadcrumbs from over 14 000 years ago it was the cultivation of wheat for flower that transformed our ancestors from hunter-gatherers to city dwellers today millions of us start the day with a slice of toast and most lunches in the us and uk are wrapped in a slice of bread or a burger bun as a cheap flexible and delicious energy source this is no surprise but bread is not what it once was modern industrial processes designed to reduce the time and cost of baking mean that today's bread would be unrecognizable to our ancestors these processes were invented with the best of intentions as growing populations meant more mouths to feed without this progress countless lives might have been lost but this technological progress has a cost today's bread resembles a sugary drink it tastes good it looks good on the outside but it has lost most of its nutritional content with most of its fiber gone and no time for bacteria to work its fermenting magic bread has become a simple starch rapidly turned into sugar in our blood and offering little to support our gut bacteria for this reason bread is increasingly demonized as an evil carb so in today's episode we're finding out if bread can ever be healthy which types are better than others and what to look out for when doing your grocery shopping you'll also hear a bombshell about what baked in the store really means joining me today is vanessa kimball author founder of the sourdough school and specialist in the subject of bread nutrition and digestibility and tim spector one of the world's top 100 most cited scientists and my scientific co-founder at zoe vanessa and tim thank you for joining me today as usual why don't we start with a quick fire round of questions from our listeners so starting with tim can bread be part of a healthy diet absolutely it can yes but perhaps not for everybody and not all the time bread contains gluten is gluten bad for most people gluten is not bad for most people definitely bad for one percent of the population and often people many more people think they have a problem with gluten than really do brilliant and last one for tim is sourdough bread healthy it depends how you make it so good sourdough bread is healthy for most people bad sourdough bread is probably as unhealthy as other breads so vanessa are all breads made in roughly the same way no absolutely not there's an extreme difference between different uh processes of making bread is all sourdough bread the same however no even more confusing i think we'll be coming back to that then um is there live bacteria in sourdough bread in the way that there is in yogurt there should be if it's made correctly all right is there a common misconception about bread that makes you annoyed or laugh yes i get really cross when people blame gluten for everything gluten bashing uh it's uh i i often shout at my instagram feed when i see dietitians and nutritionists saying avoid gluten without the full facts and i can look like the mad pigeon lady in the park sort of yelling at at the screen because it frustrates me immensely that the amount of misinformation about bread that is out there well why don't we start with why bread matters and tim why is bread important it's been demonized as sort of the ultimate evil carb what's the truth about how it affects our health what's important about bread is how much a part of our staple diet it is so it's its importance is in the percentage it makes up of all our energy and all our meals 80 percent of british people have a sandwich for their lunch and that has only happened since the 1980s so just that mere fact alone means that the choice of bread has a crucial impact on large parts of a diet which perhaps it didn't quite have 50 years ago so i think that's that's the importance and it's for many people it it can be the only source of fiber uh it's crucial therefore that we we understand bread and we try to work out that haven't seen good breads and bad breads and realize that there's huge range and so your choice of not only when to eat bread but also what type of bread to eat are absolutely crucial to our health and i think a lot of our listeners asked whether bread was basically empty calories they feel that it makes them put on weight you know i think they're coming out this was an assumption that um the bread is not a very good part of our diet and there's many better things that we could be eating where are you on that well i think i think if you at mainly bread that would be true and a lot of people do eat mainly bread people who have crisp sandwiches or basically have it three times a day in its in its worst cheapest form are having a very poor diet indeed and this is because it's that sort of bread is ultra processed and very cheap and has replaced traditional types of breads in the last few years but it it even even so it's got good and bad sides to it so white bread is used really as a substitute for uh lots of experiments of say sugar about how you you get sugar quickly into the uh into the blood system and it it scores 100 out of 100 on many tests of the availability of sugar in food because it is quite so available that starch and tim can you explain i'm not sure that everyone will follow that how does the bread and sugar seem like two very different things could you just um unpack that for a minute yes so people don't think of of bread as as a source of sugar but um carbohydrates which of which sugars are one part another part are called starches which are stored sugars and in many types of bread common white breads that starch is released as sugar very quickly in the in the system and the common supermarket white breads are classical in that your body will very quickly start breaking them down and that starch gets released to sugar and appears in your in your blood uh in 30 minutes at very high levels and so it's it's used in a way as a gold standard of saying this is the glucose response to sugar i'm just quoting as an example that people don't often think of bread as as a form of sugar so on the one hand it's a form of sugar but also it's also a form of fiber and so there are parts of the bread that don't get broken down digested that do reach the lower colon and the lower part of the intestine and are helpful to the microbes so depending on that mixture between the the carbohydrates the starch uh which produce the sugar and what proportion that is compared to the good bits the fiber determines very often how healthy or unhealthy that that bread is in very broad terms god and we're going to talk with vanessa i think a lot now about sort of how that bread um really works i have to say as a personal anecdote uh as someone who discovered that they have really bad blood sugar control when the first time that i wore a blood sugar sensor on my on my arm one of the first things i noticed was this enormous spike that i was having um with bread which i love um so this was a bit of a shock and you know one of the consequences of changing my diet with over the last few years is um there's a big shift about when and and how i eat bread and i've definitely noticed that um not only do i did i lose some of this this spike but i i've noticed that some of the energy crashes that i used to get after breakfast are definitely lower it's definitely helped me in terms of thinking about weight so you know there's definitely at a personal level vanessa i've definitely noticed that perhaps the way i used to eat bread was not the best way for me which i think is a great segue into like what really is bread so we've already uh sort of shown that there's quite a lot of complexity can you help us to understand what it is um and in today's world like what is this process by which it ends up in all the the stores and the chains where most of us buy our bread and our pre-prepared sandwiches and our mcdonald's and all the rest of it help us help us understand so bread has been a staple we evolved eating bread but not the kind of bread that you would recognize as being the bread in the supermarket so even going far as far back as neolithic man and there are some studies that we even indicate from marco botany meaning archaeologists finding evidence that even a hundred thousand years ago we were actually grinding up sugaring in the in caves indicating that you know these these initial breads would have been made into kind of patties and they would have started to ferment and i guess they were easy to carry around almost like biscuits if you look at the evidence of them and then we started to evolve into hunter-gatherers evolving into more agricultural practices we started uh growing grains and harvesting them and actually consciously making them into breads and then time went on and you can find evidence from the egyptians who made bread and beer often beer is called liquid bread and we have always eaten bread but not anything like the plastic wrapped white nutritional devoid things that we buy in the supermarket so what does that mean what's how is a normal bread made and how is it even possible for this to be done in this different way this all happened one tiny little bit at a time to progress so the first thing is is that we had a mass change in population people started coming into cities and we started having to make bread and a a lot more now we actually very interestingly at that time we went from stone ground flower where the grain is whole and interestingly enough you're talking about your blood sugar rising when your grain is still whole and actually bound to those bran and fiber that has a much slower rate of assimilation of carbohydrate because it's still actually part of the original whole grain but what we did is we began roller milling it and breaking away the fiber from the starch as tim says the sugar and that meant that a lot of the the bran even when you use it as whole grain um is broken away from starch and vanessa could you use the word bran can i can just help us to understand um what exactly that is so essentially we're eating seeds and the outer husk on the seed is protective uh it stops insects from eating it it stops uv radiation but it contains all of the goodness that we need to nourish our our microbes in our gut it contains the minerals the vitamins the um polyphenols which are antioxidants again really all the goodness is in the bran and we we created process that splits it away from the endosperm uh which is the starch and we created white flour and and vanessa can you you know can you help your listeners and help me as well to understand a bit more what it means so like what is the difference between spelt or rye or you know flour like i remember having when i was growing up in my i think there was just flour uh when i was growing up and cooking something with my mom could you explain like what's the difference between these things these are not all help us a little bit about that and then explore this idea of like mixing it all together as our ancestors did we as bakers are given the most incredible range of flowers to bake with from ein corn which is the first evergreen which is sweet and nutty spelt again lovely and nutty chorizon which is golden and full of selenium and carotenoids which are you know incredibly nutritious as well um we've got this sweetie shop of um ingredients barley oats um rye and my goodness me you know ladies and gentlemen let's mix it up a little you know if we're going to make bread uh we should really be thinking about involving the entire orchestra when it comes to our breads and these are completely different plants is that right vanessa is that the right way to to think about them they're all grain they're all grains and they all have different attributes and flavors and each one of them has got what we call different phytochemicals and the different phytochemicals are what feed the different microbes in your gut and therefore uh are if you if you eat that wonderful wide diversity you'll get my crib's having a party they're like oh yeah yeah the other thing to mention is that we talk about diversity of these whole grains but with you know the modern uh breads are not whole grains in general they are the pure inner inner part of it and all the nutritious bit is taken off so we've lost two parts of this we've stripped the uh the grain of of all the good stuff and only taken the starchy sugary bit and we've lost this amazing diversity so it's a it's a two it's a double whammy of the the breads that 90 percent of of the people eat most of the time and so tim what does that mean you know when it's arriving in our garden for our microbes what's the what's the net result you touched i think on the on the blood sugar impact but what is it what does it mean for our on microbes and i guess our broader health this this whole process that vanessa's been describing well it's it's changing uh the the sugar to fiber ratio as i said so the breads that may look healthy often died you know dyed brown to to make them look uh healthier and whole grain a few seeds on the outside but the inside is still very starchy very sugary gives this not only the sugar rush when you eat it but it doesn't have anything like the good complexity of fiber that's going to a reach your gut and then when it does isn't going to nourish nearly as many gut microbes so you're not going to get hardly any of the benefits that you would have got with the more diverse more complex fibers that would feed many more microbes and keep them happy and those microbes be converting this fiber into other healthy chemicals which are really good for your immune system and your metabolism etc so that's it's that twofold difference that probably both impact our gut microbes one directly affecting metabolism making you hungrier faster more tired without sugar spike and then the lack of really good high quality fiber that's actually getting to your gut a while later and those two things are having a big impact and and that that's it's that ratio and that's the thing you can actually see uh on if you if you are lucky enough to get a bread that tells you what's in it which most don't uh you can look at that ratio of the amount of fiber compared to the amount of um the the sugar content and and that's a good guide to whether that bread is going to likely to be of any uh health like a french benefit but it does very poorly in that ratio the other point to make here is that most of the bread we now we buy in supermarkets is ultra processed and this is because it contains ingredients you can't find in your in your kitchen yourself often they have more than 10 ingredients whereas uh anyone who makes bread cider bread themselves no you know it's it's just got flour water and microbes maybe some salt and the this effect of all these extra emulsifiers these other additives sometimes it contains some artificial sweeteners all these have effects on your gut microbes that we're beginning to find out are negative and so it's the other hidden side of this is is the whole process that keeps this bread looking fresh for two weeks it means that it has bad negative effects on your gut microbes when it finally gets there so many reasons it's very different and so if i'm if our listener is if our listener is um is going into a store and buying bread vanessa because let's assume that not everybody is baking their own uh bread i know we're gonna we're gonna touch on that but imagine uh they're going into the store or or buying it online as as i do um what are they looking for to understand the difference therefore between a uh a good bread and a and a less good bread both i guess in terms of that impact on the on the blood sugar tim that you were talking about as well as the the microbes how can i um how can i figure that out right so let let's start with the first thing of changing attitude if you were buying a bottle of wine you'd look at the label wouldn't you you look at where the grapes came from you maybe read a little bit about the grower i know tim wood so treat your bread like red wine you know you would ask questions we are assuming a huge way of thinking is that the the bread that we're buying is nourishing we have to stop and look at it and look at the label so that's your first thing never pick up a bread without looking at the label and turning it over look at the list of ingredients now the the second you see an extremely long list of things you cannot pronounce or you do not recognize put it down it doesn't matter what the label says on the front put it back be prepared to put that bread back on the shelf and say no i am not accepting this bread today i want something that is going to nourish me i'm not feeding myself i'm nourishing myself so that is about changing your attitude then you need to look out for the simplest of ingredients let's start with flour water salt but the thing that i get really excited about is actually the level of fiber and the proportion of fiber to the proportion on the label so i tend to if i have to buy bread in the supermarket i tend to look for anything above six grams per hundred grams minimum what was the the what would be the sort of breads that you'd be advising um listeners to try if they're if they're starting out on this on this journey the one with the label that's looking for whole grain i'd be looking for the whole the words whole grain but even then there are problems that as as tim mentioned that some people can fake it you know it looks like it could be good that's what i'm saying you need to get in a relationship with your bread and dig a little deeper find out a little bit more about it because they can fake that whole greatness and a few a few extra tips and tricks here so words like uh granary mean nothing and uh malted loaf is actually just adding probably more sugar to it and so there's lots of ways that you're being fooled when you buy bread and so you know if there is a label try to look at the carbohydrate to fiber ratio and that should be relatively low so it should be around four or five to one for it for a decent loaf uh the worst kind of supermarket bread is about 17 uh 80 20 to 1 ratio so there's a huge difference in that now beware though that in many supermarkets you that smell of bread hits you as you go around the aisle and those breads that they uh make on the premises don't have a label and they just put them in bags and you've got no real idea what's in them and you it's all a big con because that bread is often a year old i really i was gonna say it sounds good they made the bread in the premises surely this is um this is the best stuff no no it's it's it's pre-frozen it's pre-cooked and basically they just have to um defrost it and uh give it a final toasting and that's how they get away with uh making it uh this so-called fresh you know baked on the premises and it means they also don't have to put a label on it i don't have to say what additives they put in it and it's all a giant con but it does smell nice and makes you extra hungry as you're going around the supermarket what about the gluten you mentioned it right at the beginning i think there's a lot of people who are concerned about being you know sensitive to gluten um you know bread is the number one thing that people associate with this uh tim is this how should people think of how should people think about this well one percent of people one in a hundred are actually uh have a real sensitivity or analogy to gluten and these people have celiac disease and it's a it's a relatively common if you think 100 is common autoimmune condition that this doesn't apply to they they will be vomiting they'll feel really sick they won't be able to gain weight there's no in-between area there but recently in the last 20 years we've seen this massive increase in gluten sensitivity which is people that aren't don't have the antibodies they're not uh physically sick they just might feel bloating or other symptoms when they uh they feel they're they're eating gluten when when these people and this is this is this percentage is going up all the time in its latest surveys around 10 of people say they have gluten sensitivity and when these people are actually tested blind with say gluten-free pasta or or gluten pasta and they're not told which is which about eighty percent of them turn out not to be uh gluten sensitive they have just got it wrong or they've just made a mistake because the gluten is associated with other foods so there's a whole group of people that are mistaken that it's gluten that's causing their problem there are still some people that do have a sensitivity to it and they may well have other conditions like irritable bowel syndrome or other allergies as which have increased dramatically in the last few years um but may just be a general symptom of their problem rather than the cause of the problem and that's that's i think uh well where most of the scientists and doctors in this field are coming from that uh no one really believes that gluten is causing these problems other than for the celiac it is just a a sign that people eating gluten type foods or maybe cheap sandwiches or other things that contain it they're eating other things along it that are giving them bad microbes the worse your state of your microbes the less you are able to anyway deal with some of the foods we eat and this is a bit of a symptom of the western gut but as i said most people are actually mistaken and they're not intolerant of gluten when they're tested in a scientific way i think that's very important to realize if we've cleared that up vanessa can you clear up the sourdough mystery for us so it's almost impossible now for me not to buy some bread that says sourdough on it i'm still a bit unclear though really what it is could you help us to understand and and maybe tim can help us understand if you know there's really the health benefits associated with this um uh with this as well so i'm currently finishing my doctorate in nutrition and digestibility of bread it's taken me a long time and it's hard work apparently they don't give doctorates away so um most of my work for the the past 20 years has been combining uh the potential health benefits of sourdough and long slow fermentation uh with that understanding of how that plays with the gut and the microbes in the gut and the impact on mental health so the first thing to say is um sourdough is a combination of wild yeast that's yeast that's in the air and yeast that you capture and lactic acid bacteria now you'll be familiar with these bacteria because you will have come across them in yogurt you'll come across them in vinegar these are chocolate even coffee and tea is fermented cheese is fermented so we're very very very familiar with these microbes and we know that what they actually do is uh they feast on the available sugars and there's a symbiotic relationship with the yeast and they produce two types of acid now the first type of acid is lactic acid that's his kind of yogurt flavor and the other acid is um acetic acid and that's more what you would recognize as being vinegar and when you combine these different acids what actually happens is the acidity triggers this incredible change that goes on and transforms the dough it's not the acidity that actually on its own transforms the dough it's part of the equation because of course when you put acid on anything it's going to break it down which is one part of it but the other part of it is very interesting and that is they trigger this amazing thing that's already in the um the uh um grain and that is enzymes now if you think of enzymes as being like edward scissorhands they chop everything up and this ability to chop everything up is actually one of the key things that for example um changes the entire way and structure the way that the flower is structured and the way that the dough behaves so a really nice example for example sorry is phytic acid now when you get uh the acidity it triggers the phytase and the phytase enzymes um break down something that normally uh takes the minerals and the vitamins out with it it's also uh phytos is something that can also give you wind never desirable for my bread i feel vanessa no no so one of the things that allows people to eat sourdough is that long slow fermentation and those enzymes neutralize the phytic acid making it easier to digest but also unlocking the minerals making it more nutritious so i think that's a win-win and how long how long does this process take you're describing this long slow fermentation with like wild yeast how does that happen can that only happen if i'm sort of doing this at home or in some sort of artisanal bakery in which case is this relevant for like large-scale feeding of people so it's not just the length of fermentation you are correct the fermentation itself uh you can ferment a sourdough in in a very short space of time you can make them in six or eight hours or you can leave them longer but because of this uh chain reaction we tend to think of the longer you ferment it the more broken down it becomes so if you have digestive issues then fermenting overnight which is called a method will generally break the flour down more making it more nutritious easier to digest and uh is is an all-around healthier bread than say something that was short fermented so within the process of fermentation there are you know short ferments and long ferments but it is using that live bacteria that transforms the dough just to clarify um you might have got the impression it's really complicated jonathan but actually it sounded really really complicated to me yes but but and actually uh vanessa's actually written a book about how to do this really really quickly you know the ten minute um approach that if you're you've got everything ready uh it just takes you a few minutes to put everything together because the microbes do the work give me the 10 minute one i think you scared me a bit to be honest like i was getting a bit excited and now i'm retreating give me the light i do this well i now do this you know following vanessa's uh coaching and you keep a mother in the fridge and basically that's just uh you know from the old you just keep recycling a bit of the old dough with the with the microbes in it it's it's resting in the fridge you mix it with uh some flour and some water and then you you that takes you you know five minutes and then you come back the next day and then you add it to more flour and more water to make up like half a kilo and then you leave it uh to rise then you put it in the oven then you eat it and really that that's it um everything the work is done for you by the microbes and this is why if you you've got a regular schedule now people are working out it's dead easy to do this and you you can just mix in anything you really want to into that flower and so regardless of all the chemistry behind it actually everyone can do this and this is what everyone used to do before 1963 when we all got converted into plastic bread so that's really important to realize and i think it has as i said health benefits and there are studies showing that um an italian studies showing people with celiac disease who would normally be vomiting with bread many of them not all but some of them when they have sourdough bread actually were able to tolerate it which is really interesting because it means that the the protein in the bread in the sourdough bread is very different to in in normal breads and the the bit that's triggering these these reactions is very much less so gluten still there but the way it's presented is different your own research actually showed that um i think you were part of with uh sending out mothers to all parts of the world and getting people to make their own mother because you have to start it somewhere so everyone leaves a bit of water and flower on the side of their sink and then the natural yeast and bacteria flow in and it turns out when you do that they're all very different and makes your bread actually all very different so all the starters around the world are all slightly different which is a like a a nice story about how all our guts are different and so it's this amazing uniqueness of all these these methods that are really important and some of that it turns out is partly because the microbes on our hands are all very different as well so not only the microbes in the air in our room are all different but when bakers get around and they start moving it becomes a bit of a hybrid between your own bodies microbes and uh what's what's in in the dough and and in the air as well so that that's why everyone's starter is unique and people often swap them around to get very different very different tastes and flavors because as as we know you know microbes plus food gives you all these different chemicals uh in totally unique ways so that's that's one thing but i'd love vanessa to talk about fake sourdough and how supermarkets are selling to people like jonathan as sourdough when actually there's nothing live or real about it other than perhaps the smell how do they do that versa so when you say to yourself or a doctor says to you need to re-look at your your bread you have to go beyond looking at the packet you have to look for real sourdough now there are ironically commercial producers of sourdough in large quantities that are making real sourdough so if i'm at the grocery store how can i how can i tell whether it's real or fake is that back to the number of ingredients on the back of the pack or is it something else yes and no we have no regulation in the uk um the usa i don't think it's also regulated although i'd have to take a little bit deeper into that right now but you have to look for the words that tell you that it is real sourdough and long slow fermented using live culture at this point we are completely reliant on the manufacturers communicating those facts to us just the word sourdough doesn't cut it so don't believe it if it says sourdough pizza can i now just eat as much of that as i want and uh and i'm healthy because if it's real sourdough it's all going to be fine or is that um the thing is jonathan if you to sourdough itself is not it is a process look at what you're actually processing if you're still processing refined white carbs no so coming back to your lovely pizza jonathan no no sourdough on its own um with white if you don't have the fiber in there it's pretty pointless you might at best increase resistant starch which might slow down a bit of your blood sugar response and the fat from your lovely cheese might do that but no no no no no we need to look at the combination of whole grain live bacteria and thyme and then you can have your lovely pizza with a glass of wine and enjoy it so we always like to wrap up with some practical advice and i think we've touched a lot of this already um uh but if we do want to eat bread and i think most of us want to to eat bread are there any other top tips about how to um make sure that um we can we can do that in in the healthiest way um maybe starting with with tim well it's just to reiterate that you know bread is still a good source of fiber and proteins but it if you get the wrong ones it's going to cause you really bad sugar spikes always choose rye and whole grains and and and breads with mixed flours uh and added seeds when you can um and remember to look at a label when there is a label um to try and get as low a carbohydrate to fiber ratio as possible and i think this uh and and a really simple ingredient list and if those two things will give you an idea that if you are buying food rather buying bread rather than making it yourself uh you've got a chance of getting it right and uh you know and wherever possible you know do go to a specialist baker uh artisan baker be prepared to pay more money for it because uh it you know you can't make it in half an hour so it's it is uh worth paying that extra money for the slow fermented soda bread that uh we've heard so much about vanessa any other top tips you'd like to add yes um if you are faced with having to eat some bread that isn't uh whole grain and you need to eat refined bread and let's face that you can be in a social situation where this happens and you suddenly feel awkward and weird and rude because you're like no thank you what you can actually do is you can change the rate and the way that your body assimilates your bread by eating a little bit of um [Music] fiber rich food beforehand so you could have a small amount of soup or you could have uh some roasted vegetables or something that actually lines your your um your your stomach before you eat your bread and if you then were to combine your bread with a little bit of fat and protein that again will slow down uh the rate of uh the rate that your body takes up those carbohydrates so it's not just the way you make your bread jonathan it's also the way you eat your bread so you know that pizza you were talking about earlier yep that would be a salad first then your pizza with your cheese on top a little bit of something uh for some protein and eating around the table with your friends and sharing that's the key that is beautiful i love that idea the sad reality is if i eat the pizza even with the cheese actually my blood sugar goes through the roof because i am one of the people that's quite on the extreme of this but i'm aware of it and so it needs to be something that i i do as a treat well vanessa and and tim we covered a lot of stuff so you've made it particularly hard but i'm going to try and summarize um sort of the the key things we've we've picked up on um today so firstly bread matters because it's a huge source of the world's calories we were grinding up grains for bread tens of thousands of years ago to make fermented biscuits which is an amazing thing to think about and the big change is actually very recently so when we moved to cities and we moved to this new milling that sort of removed all the healthy outer coat of the seed and and it's had loads of benefits it can be stored longer it's easier to transport but we had this bipod that we lost all the fiber sourdough is different because it has a sort of long slow fermentation the ultimate health of it though does depend what sort of flour you're using gluten is not an issue for most of us a few people have celiacs i think tim said that ten percent of people have sensitivity but actually mainly caused by foods other than the gluten so this is sort of symptom probably of a gut microbiome that's having issues rather than that the gluten in the bread is is the core problem now bread can be unhealthy and particularly we turn it into blood sugar very fast and then final in terms of the the top tips to improve your health if like me you want to keep eating bread i think the number one thing is turn it over and look at the label um like you would if you were buying a wine you wouldn't just buy something that said red wine if there's a long list of ingredients put it back on the shelf look at the amount of fiber sourdough is definitely the way to go but make sure it's it's real and finally if you are going to eat this really refined bread then think about what you put around it and then finally i think the best thing of all bread comes from this word friend it's meant to be eaten as companionship it's this thing we've been doing for tens of thousands of years so you shouldn't think about bread as something that's forbidden you can never have it um like we always say zoe it's about understanding you know the balance and nothing should be um should be off vanessa and tim thank you so much that was a fantastic tour i know there's so many more things we could have talked about um and as always we look forward to returning to this topic again in the future thank you to vanessa and tim for joining me on zoe science and nutrition today we hope you enjoyed today's episode if you did please be sure to subscribe and leave us a review as we love reading your feedback if this episode left you with any questions please send them in on instagram or facebook and we will try to answer them in a future episode at zoe we want to improve the health of millions by understanding the right food for each of us to improve our health and manage our weight that's why zoe always starts with an at-home test comparing you with participants in the world's largest nutrition science study if you're interested in learning more about zoe you can head to joinzoe.com podcast and get 10 off your personalized nutrition program as always i'm your host jonathan wolfe zoe science and nutrition is produced by fascinate productions with support from sharon feder and alex jones here at zoe see you next time [Music] you

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Id: 1PGyv3nDv9o

Length: 43min 42sec (2622 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 13 2022