Bureaucrat who speaks his mind

there was indecision in UPA government it took a lot of time to take decisions uh NDA the decisions were pretty quick and fast and he told Mr adani on the phone in front of you yeah that you shouldn't have done that but since you've done that I'll take the entire responsibility of [Music] it a bureaucrat who has worked both in the UPA and the BJP government and was a person who found solutions to critical issues uh heading the uh PMG in the cabinet Secretariat when investment took a hit coal secretary uh after the coal scam uh education secretary and also was the director of information and public relations when the babri Masjid was demolished all of which is in his new book uh encounters with politician releasing in January analu thank you so much for talking to brute pleasure to be here uh we come to 2014 uh so we've had three years where uh no files were moving scams were uh the media was talking about scams and enter Prime Minister Modi do you think that one of the things that he did when he came in was Empower bureaucracy uh listen to bureaucrats secretes around him oh yes he interacted with the bureaucracy so intensively and he was so receptive to begin with we used to have quarterly tea meetings with him with all with all secretary sitting there and they're free to hear their View and it was all the secretaries of the government of India meet the Prime Minister free to speak to him at an informal setting at his residence over I would technically call it a cup of tea but it was much more than a cup of tea um we had a great time then everyone spoke not only that even during the meetings he encouraged people to talk officers to talk and they did speak and the government benefited out of it see here was a prime minister who realized the fact that each one of us was living in a soilo he set up secretaries groups where we were discussing issues well beyond our domain and we came up with Solutions many of them were adopted we made presentations fairly formal stroke in formal setting where everyone came up and spoke so he to begin with it was absolutely amazing it was incredible that it was happening but it changed after some some point my perception it changed because I after demonetization something happened what happened I don't know why it happened I don't know but I did feel that the free communication that existed between us and the Prime Minister uh free communic that existed in meetings and this was evidenced by a very interesting T session that we had the usual T session I distinctly remember the protocol was that the cabinet secretaries spoke and then all secretaries spoke one after the other one after the other in this particular after demonetization I don't know how many months after that we had cabinet secretary speak up and thereafter for almost a minute no secretary spoke up and the Prime Minister himself had to stand up and say that was that was some sort of a signal that probably everyone was not as free to speak as they were before and then it gradually the messaging started happening that critical comments against the government even in meeting were not being welcomed so almost everyone saying yes to everything so that I think was not good for the government for this very government which did so wonderfully well in the first 2 and a half years that they were there uh so open so receptive so outgoing and it gradually clammed up and I could perceive it because I used to discuss with my colleagues my other secretaries outside they had a different view inside they didn't speak up it was not good for the government it's very interesting sir on on demonetization where you've spoken in the book uh you you've called it a good idea executed very poorly H and that's where in your book it it changes the the point of view that you've just articulated that something happened and moved after demonetization the idea was good because you know I had the uh Misfortune of Being in positions where I saw Chief ministers going haywire at least one of them so when this demonetization happened I I thought the weal that may have been accumulated by that chief minister would not become a KN of course it didn't I'm told the entire thing got converted see the point was that anyone who had accumulated those 2,000 Rupees notes I thought their wealth which is black money would be red and would now be now go away but as luck would have it as I gather from the newspapers that most of the money came back to RBI and it became White so the purpose to defeat it that was one but the idea was very good in the sense to deal with but the craziest of idea was if 1,000 sorry I use the word 2,000 rup notes then it was 1,000 if we were to avoid accumulation of black money then why did we come up with 2,000 rupe notes I mean this you can't have a larger denomination you have to go to a smaller denomination absolutely I mean I never understood that whoever advised the Prime Minister on that probably didn't know know what he was saying or what he was doing he was not aware of the purpose if the purpose was to do away with black money you know my personal view would have been do with 52,000 rupe notes have only 100 rupe notes poor man will work with that let the others work through the banking systems I think one of the finest things which India government is digital financing using uh technology or electronically transferring money right now if this were the case then why even have 1,000 or 2,000 or 500 rupe notes so logic would dictate for black money to not circulate in an economy uh you move to smaller denomination notes not larger because larger denomination notes would just mean there is uh an account accountant for money in the system so the use of 2,000 rupe notes was totally inexplicable that is one and I'm talking as a common man I don't have to be a financial expert to understand that anyone would understand that a bigger 1,000 rupe node will occupy greater space than a smaller 2,000 rupe node as volumes then the second one which which related to The Common People was why reduce the size of 500 rup note you know all ATMs could not function they have to recalibrate it for use of smaller size note look at the Kos it created now again the Prime Minister cannot be expected to foresee all this I mean the civil servants around had to have this view they should have the foresight to see what is the consequence of what is being done now these could have easily be managed this mismanagement that you talking about is do you think it happened more uh because the bureaucrats did not speak their mind do you think it was on a ministerial level is there any sense that it would just be a conjecture whatever I say I don't I would not like to conjecture but my contention was there was some fundament mental issues that could have been taken care of I wish they had been taken care of because as I keep saying that the idea was a great one that that's how to get rid of black money ultimately hardly any black money was discovered so to say right right um coming back to the second point that things changed after demonetization where the bureaucracy was not uh reluctant to sort of view uh uh you know what their opinion was did it change at all by the time that you uh you know retired and served it went on becoming worse worse okay went on becoming worse I mean again there's no expl I can't explain it why it happened but that's how it happened perhaps the signals that were emanating perhaps the manner in which secretaries were being shifted perhaps in a few cases when secretaries spoke out and they if not use the term suffered they were shifted out or changed perhaps that could have been the cause so there were silent messages all around the atmosphere had changed definitely was changing uh I'm going to read out a small excerpt from your book you say uh the Modi government was still doing exceptionally well on several fronts this is after demonetization like National highways rural housing rural electrification cooking gas and digital payments the achievements were paying political dividends too and the government was appropriately taking credit but then it chose to hog credit also for what it had not done I remember the Independence Day speech where amongst the many not so correct claims by the Prime Minister was the one related to the setting up of the pro project monitoring Group by the NDA government as I had set up the PMG during the previous government's tenure I wondered whether there was a need to make incorrect assertions the government could legitimately claim to have done so very well on many fronts strange are the ways of politics why do you think there was a need to claim or make incorrect in a prime minister speech in the on the Independence Day I I can't answer this why because only the person who uses this can answer the why why did I'm surprised I'm surprised because it was not required I'm surprised because though Ive never worked directly with a prime minister but I have been in the Secretariat of the chief ministers three of them and whenever Chief ministers stated or made such a statement which was factually incorrect we told him this is factually incorrect and then it was up to him to decide whether he would still make that factually incorrect statement because either it's Pol IC Ally necessary or whatever right but this is the job of the people around the top man to at least convey to him that this is factually incorrect you know I'm I'm personally of the view that you can't expect a prime minister to verify every fact personally it is the team around him that tell and you know if you do tell the prime minister or the chief minister then they will set up a filtering system and see if the facts are correct or not you know sometimes there is a need to tell AI i i as a politician perhap perhaps you may have to do but if it's a factually incorrect statement and the person who's making it is not aware it is the job of the people supporting him to make him aware of that and then leave it to him to decide my hunch is I mean what whatever little that I know of Mr Modi if he were told that these are not correct statement I think he would have corrected himself I mean to me he appeared to be a very straightforward man who who spoke on facts on most of the occasions but I found over a period of time he was making the same mistake if I can say so because probably he was not making it consciously he was making such incorrect statements repeatedly and there were more and more such coming so it gives a wrong impression of a prime minister you know that's why some people have started giving him a different name altogether that he's you know making statements which are factually incorrect that's where I think the Secretariat of people around him have to tell him because I don't know whether they told him or not I'm just assuming they didn't because had they told him probably he would not keep repeating those mistakes do you think one of the reasons uh why something like this could be happening is that there is fear of Retribution my my assumption is probably uh not many people had the courage to speak their mind out to the Prime Minister I felt that uh because when I used to have informal discussions with them otherwise they would agree with me and they will keep quiet in the meeting why would they do that why shouldn't they speak up you know there are two parts to it one is a fact the other is a view right my personal view is in both cases we must speak up factually incorrect we should say view obviously we should present because ultimately I'm not the decision- making Authority you know one of the instances which I quoted in my book when I told the Prime Minister and I something told him something which he was averse to in the sense that he had a different view altogether he finally agreed with me right so while coming out of that room a joint secretary to the pmo he asked me so one should have the courage to speak one's mind out I mean politely and more so on facts you know there could be a difference of opinion there can't be a difference of fact fact is a fact fact to be told so this has to be understood there I don't know why it is happening I'm surprised that it is happening right uh you've used in your book you used a VI that he that Prime Minister Modi endeed himself to all in informal settings that you've spoken about um and you also said that uh you know there were groups of 10 secretaries formed and even in the annual budget uh some of these uh you know uh solutions that uh that presented uh you know had had come in uh who were the people who were also in terms of the cabinet ministers at that point in time um helping the bureaucracy sort of you know move uh in this direction and was speaking their mind to Prime Minister Modi you know Arun jetley Was A Man Apart late Arun jetley I have a great regard for him man in his own polite manner would disagree with the Prime Minister State whatever he had to and the Prime Minister also had a great regard for him he was the real troubleshooter for the government as far as I was concerned take for example Cole he was not my Minister Cole Minister but he did most of the troubleshooting interacting with the states with the chief ministers which were not part of n a consensus Builder consensus Builder so we had people like him who could do that then there was a I mean I did not have too many interaction with Suma s but I had a great regard for her so articulate so clear so positive in her approach I did have a meeting with her and I have written about it but whatever I heard and saw phenomenal so you had these two absolutely phenomenal persons in the cabinet who who was so good and they had that calming influence especially Arun jetley I saw him on a number of occasions a very calming influence on discussions right then you had brilliant people like ntin gatari who I rate as one of the finest ministers that you had even Mr P goyel very articulate very persuasive very effective very hardworking right but somehow he did not speak so much in front of the Prime Minister as uh as other three that I'm mentioning spoke so there were there were there were very very bright ministers that I had the occasion to work with Mr prash jaer I've written a lot one of the finest persons very sharp mind and he was also leader who took everyone along hardly saw him lose a school you know so you had these ministers phenomenal ministers and that's why the government did well you worked in both the governments in critical positions uh was the working different it was pretty different U UPA was totally different from what you have in India where there is there was indecision in UPA government took a lot of time to take decisions uh NDA the decisions were pretty quick and fast so this was a critical difference between them the second difference was that um in UPA there were too many power centers ministers were on the totally on their own and NDA was The Other Extreme where almost everything got concentrated at the pmo so that's how these two governments were totally different different uh so we'll start with Manmohan Singh um you give us a sense uh you know to the viewers on what it was like interacting with him and in particular you've gone into detail uh on uh 54,000 crores worth of projects being stuck Frankly Speaking I never worked with Dr manmon sing or interacted with him when he was prime minister I never spoke to him directly uh my only interaction with him personally when he was Deputy chairman Planning Commission this was in the ' 80s I was a young officer and I had a great impression about him uh an absolutely astute sharp um perceptive person a very kind person that was my impression when I met him first and later on when I read about him as Finance Minister he did wonderful job everyone recognized him for that I was a trifle disappointed the way he worked as a prime minister because I felt that he was not in control of things um that's why I said uh things were going haire and he appeared to be clueless in the sense or he didn't know how to go about handling these ministers who were on their own and as you mention about that 54,000 CR it is an example how that the government was working because not only her I think there were allegations against other ministers also and an honest man like Manmohan Singh uh as prime minister he could not probably impose his honesty on his other ministers and why do you think that was why was there such a dichotomy the the reason is very simple you know he to my mind wasn't a politician a very fine person a very accomplished Economist an expert a very kind person but not a politician and politician requires other attributes and that's why I keep saying that to my mind he wasn't really a leader in that sense to be able to communicate with his team to tell them what is going right and what is going wrong in his own way get things corrected he was good in his own way I mean he was individually outstanding but to get the team going you require those leadership skills which he lacked which I think Modi does it so well he's a leader power Excellence right so he gets things done he he motivates people he talks to people you know one of the basic attributes of any leader is to be communicative communicative in the sense be able to tell your team as to what you want what is not done you know the messages have to be very loud and clear and that was the difference between the two prime ministers as I keep saying moan Singh was an outstanding expert great person but not very good at communication and hardly communicated with his team or if he did I not aware the messages weren't going down loud and clear because his own personality was that he was absolutely honest very competent but such messages were not reaching out to the ministers or probably he didn't feel like sending those messages trust Modi on that you know Modi would get done what he wants to get done he's very purposeful very decisive very communicative and he wants to be so from that point of view I think the two prime ministers were totally different totally different let's quickly talk about uh centralization of power uh it's it's a well-known uh bit that all decisions most important decisions in the country are being taken at the prime minister's office level uh what does that do in terms of to decision making in a country what are the repercussions of something like this happening is it good is it terribly bad and and why see in a diverse country like ours um the more decentralization you have the better it is okay because at a centralized level if you start taking every decision then first they will not be that expertise available or those inputs available at the central level to take that decision and second there would be delays in decisions and all this will impact governance so take for I'll give you a very concrete example here look at the number of vacancies that exist at the level of directors and psus you know we keep blaming psus for everything I was not directly managing but as Co secretary I was looking at Co India and Co India did phenomenally well because we as government did not interfere in the functioning of coal India what actually happens is that the government keeps interfering in psus without supporting them now what is the support that PSU is looking for personnel personnel and secondly to help them do what they can't do but the fact of the matter is you can have a system you know I've been advising informally formally that if coal Ministry could have digital files and papers where we could actually see who's sitting on which file for how many hours how many minutes how many seconds why doesn't the pmo do that right everyone will get to know who sitting on which on which file charity has to begin at home make it completely transparent uh speaking of appointment of Institutions yesterday Raj SAA passed a bill uh we had an opposition walk out on the appointment of the chief election commissioner and the other officers uh being done by a committee headed by the Prime Minister there are three people in it the opposition a cabinet minister appointed by the Prime Minister and uh the leader of the opposition uh it doesn't have what the Supreme Court had said the Chief Justice of India on it uh the chief Election Commission uh you know KAG CBI Supreme Court of India uh could you give us a sense of uh are there changes taking place there is a problem there uh the faith that people had in institutions eroding and uh election Commissioners being appointed the way it has come now would erode the faith further you know democracy exists on institutions and if those institutions erode then the Democratic Values will erod hence it is important to ensure that these institutions are independent are working in a manner they should but if we have so to say our own people sitting there then there would be trouble for institutions and ultimately trouble for democracy uh moving to Chief ministers and you've extensively spoken about you uh which was very very interesting so let's talk about your time with with uh mayawati in particular uh you have said and I'll quote again I was deled here was a young collector demonstrating to a greenh hor chief minister that officers could deliver such quote unquote briefcases tell us what happened there I was the day officer there was a system of day offices one of the special secretaries had to be there for the day I was sitting uh in the in a in a room there and suddenly uh District mate who was a year Junior to me he came he had a briefcase in his hand uh nothing wrong with that per se so since we knew each other we greeted each other and then went inside to meet the uh the chief minister and when he came out he didn't have the briefcase with him so that set me thinking so I asked him chief minister then I could get something you know and then I asked him District so he smiled sheepishly and I could seeit lar on his face and I could make out something has happened so of course I gave him piece of my mind and I told him you demonstrated to him that is officers can do this what you've done of course I couldn't do much because that was between him and the chief minister it was a sad day for me because for the first time I had seen this happen I had never seen this happen before and again it was my conjecture I had not seen any cash in it but I thought I was right going by the reaction of the district magistrate I was very upset that day right you were transferred out of the mayawati government uh you've spoken about transfers when you were uh IG of jails uh that was very interesting when mayavati took over as the chief minister for the second time I got a message that she wanted me to be in a secretariate again which I didn't want to be because of the experience that I had had in the past so I sent a polite note for some reason she was very annoyed with me and she transferred me and she transferred me and transferred me I was transferred tce in those 6 months which is fair I think as I keep saying I have written in my book also transfer is like death transfer and it's natural for any human being right you die but fortunately for civil servants you you are reborn you you get posted somewhere else so I wasn't really bothered reborn something very interesting happened there you know what that you've wrote written about very unique uh when when you refused to uh appoint uh you know as as IG of jails you refused to appoint certain inside people that this was the time that you've said in in utar Pradesh where uh polit there were more politicians in jails or people who were in jail were becoming politicians it was it was uh it was a different time uh and you refused to appoint some key uh things and you were transferred out but the successor who came after you also refused so it was very unique uh that there was a signal being given to the chief min at that point in time that they will not be pushed bureaucrats cannot be pushed to do something that they don't want to what I wanted to ask you about is how difficult is it to stand uh you know that kind of pressure and maybe something unique like this happening it's it's not difficult at all in fact if you're not expecting anything from the politician it's not difficult you're prepared to pay the price my predecessor had also said no I was brought in without any due diligence about whether I'll be able to do that job I was brought in I also didn't do it and when the Third chap also refused that's how bureaucracy has to be you know a wrong thing if doesn't get done by any bureaucrat it won't be done it won't be done if there are people available to do wrong things it will be done thereafter I developed a reputation where no one had the courage to come and ask me for a wrong thing so people ask me were you under political pressure ever no I was never what political pressure I held very sensitive assignments never under political pressure to do anything wrong because the politician are very perceptive you know they knew that I would not do a wrong thing they would not keep me there in that assignment if I'm there they won't ask me for that as simple as that all right um moving to Kalan Singh and you've spoken uh you know you've said he was one of the most upright politicians you had worked with uh uh can you tell us a little bit of an anic door from your time working with him so there were many instances where he may have a point of view but if you told him that is incorrect he would say no it wouldn't be done so whether it was his son taking of a vehicle of a cdio with when he was told that he's taken it immediately he got it back or whether it was into transfers when he was told that the transfers there's a lot of money Changing Hands he comes up with a system and he ensures that that system is followed a secretary who doesn't follow that system is shifted so you you know governance happens through signals right ibal what messages are you conveying when the messages conveyed by the top man are for honesty and civil servants as he said Kalan sing used to say civil servants like horses it depends on the gar the one who's riding the horse if he's straight if he's good he'll get the horse to do it so Kalan Singh Was A Man Apart you know it's totally different right and uh you were handling the Press under him when the babri Masjid came down uh was was uh and you happen to be in the room when he got uh the information uh for you know those of us who remember headlines Etc uh Kalan sing's name was forever sort of you know uh it's it's joined with under him babri Majid being you know come down and you've gone in in quite detail and explained uh that uh let's start with that phone call let's start when you happened to be in the room with him uh when that information came uh that the car saers had brought down babri Masjid what transpired after that he was he was shocked he was he was so grief stricken uh at something had hit him very hard and then he spoke to Mr adwani who was on the spot and he told him that I told you not to get these people around he he was sure that nothing will happen but something happened but still he was against Congregation of people at the at the and he told Mr adani on the phone in front of you yeah that you shouldn't have done that but since you've done that I'll take the entire responsibility of it and then he spoke to Mr Bing shakawat who was the chief minister of Rajasthan same long you know he was just very very angry with him he told him I told you not to get these people here but you weren't listening to me and and I will but I will take the entire responsibility what is happening he was so distraught you know I I reflect on why he said what he said you know people look at him differently but I was there on the spot I don't know what was behind it you know here was a chief minister who was trying to do good things in up and that is considered to be that period of 91 to 92 was considered to be the golden period of the state he's trying to do many things and he was getting away with doing so many things so well so why would he want he he would have known that if the structure came down his government will go why would he want his government to go so I mean that's my first intuitive reaction to to what Kalan Singh did but what I saw of him was that here was a man who was so angry and very naturally angry at the structure coming down why because he was working towards a solution and solution was exactly ly what the Supreme Court said so many years down the line he was negotiating with you know groups telling them that you can have your um at the site that you want I'll give you wonderful all the land that you want for building it but why do you want to take this structure which is not a Masjid technically with you because you not prayed there for 12 years I remember his words you know he was very clear in his mind and he he was moving towards that solution and I think when the uh the structure came down his dreams also came down shattering I mean he was not the same man there after he was not the same man thereafter since we are on up we've spoken of two ministers and uh you know we have to speak of Yogi adiat uh you've spoken about three things you interacted with him when you were education secretary uh and in your previous books uh and in the public domain you've said uh there's the coal Mafia and then uh there's the education Mafia which is even stronger than the coal Mafia or more ferocious uh as education secretary you took on uh you know fake B at colleges uh Mass cheating uh tell us a little bit about your interaction with yogi adiat uh and uh what he said about the education sector I had one long interaction with him in a meeting and I had gone to meet him in the context of um the action that we taking against the B and D colleges of the mafias that you mentioned and I also mention in my book The the most difficult of the mafias was B and D at colleges for the simple reason that they were training budding teachers and out of the 16,000 colleges I was informed that 4,000 do not exist they're just on paper or maybe in a room and they could give you a degree now look at the quality of Education these teachers will impart with with these so-called fraudulent fraud degrees so the chairman of the National Council for Teacher education wanted to take them on in the sense he wanted some information from them we were under the impression that they have a lot of political backing all these mafias of of ba at D colleges which was a truth so I decided that I'll go and meet the chief ministers and I met a number of Chief ministers in this in the country to brief them about the actions that we were taken okay one of the chief minister that I met was Mr Yogi ad and I was very impressed with what his his response his response was in Hindi and he told me it's a very difficult problem this sort of a support we got from the entire country from all Chief Ministers irres of the political parties in fact we got political backing for that the whole whole effort that we took failed because of judicial intervention because the high court stayed seeking of information from these B and D colleges about their existence about their geographical location about the staff that they had some information was sought on an affit so that we could nail them if they gave the wrong information right they stayed against it uh they shed notice to the chairman n c notice to me the chairman n c a very very fine eyes officer he resigned from the service it was one of my failures in my career and and a really big task that that you had taken on your first interaction with Prime Minister Modi uh you spoke your mind and it was um you know different from what he wanted to hear uh you did that similarly with Kalan Singh with mayawati with with so many other ministers that you spoke about um you know is that something which we find in the bureaucracy um far and and and in and between uh I would not like to comment on what the bureaucracy is but as far as I was concerned I cultivated this bad habit and I loved it because that gave me enormous Freedom you know I could speak my mind out I was not holding back anything you know many people ask me that post retirement you are speaking no my friends I spoke even before retirement but on account of code of conduct I was not speaking in public but within meetings and on the files I had this habit of expressing my point of view and then if I was overruled and if this overruling was not against any law I went Whole Hog with the decision of my boss I then didn't question it but before a decision was taken I used to speak my mind out and I loved it I love it even now love it even now um my last request uh to you sir was you've written a beautiful poem uh that you had recited uh to Kalan Singh uh in one of your interactions with him uh do you think you can recite it yes I remember remember that those lines I can't [Music] forget thank you so much for speaking to was thank you very much

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Length: 34min 33sec (2073 seconds)

Published: Fri Dec 22 2023