HAL ROTH: Good afternoon,
everybody, or good evening. [INAUDIBLE] My name is Hal Roth, and
I direct the Contemplative Studies Program here at Brown. And I'm really happy
to welcome you. This is, I guess, this
is the first event of our lecture and workshop
series for this semester. And I wanted to be
sure to let you all know that tomorrow
from 11:00 to 6:00 in Hillel's Winnick
Chapel, Abbot Taka Kawakami will be leading an Intro
to Zen Practice workshop. Admission is free. Just come over a little
bit before 11:00, and you're certainly welcome. And I want to
encourage you to come. How many people,
show of hands, this is your first Contemplative
Studies event? Oh, good. That gives me the opportunity
to say a few words about Contemplative Studies. Otherwise, I
wouldn't, but anyway. So we're one of the newest
concentrations and programs at Brown. And what we do is we
focus on the study of human contemplative
experience, experiences of focused
attention and insight that have been developed
in many different cultures. So we study them in
their historical context. We also study the burgeoning
amount of scientific literature on contemplative studies. And the third important
part is that we also study how to do contemplative
practice in the classroom setting. And one of the key differences
that enables us to do that here is that we don't-- normally, if you go and
do contemplative practices at a monastery, a mosque, a
synagogue, a temple, and so on, you not only learn
the practice, you learn the cognitive
framework in which that practice is embedded. But it's kind of
expected, or you're explicitly asked, to believe
in the truth of that framework. And that's something
we can't do here in a modern secular university. So we teach you the practice. We teach you the framework. But then it's up to you. You know, you test
it out yourself in the kind of laboratory
of your own body and mind. It's really
completely up to you. So this kind of enables us to do
contemplative practice teaching in the context of
the classroom where that might not be appropriate
in many other circumstances. So we study human contemplative
experience-- we study the scientific research on it. But we also look at it
from its cultural context, humanistic context, and
also artistic expressions. We've developed our own
distinctive series of courses. We probably have six or
seven courses a year. Then we make use of
existing courses. So if any of you is interested
in the concentration, please go to our website. We've got a very
informative website. And there's also videos of a lot
of our lectures from the past really more than a decade. There are a number
of scientific labs that work with
contemplative studies that are part of our group. One of them is the Cathy Kerr
Lab for Embodied Neuroscience. You can also find
that from our website. There's also the Britton Lab. And there's also the new
Center for [INAUDIBLE] that has been developed
out of public health that Professor
[INAUDIBLE] has developed. So if you have
any more questions about the concentration, I would
like to hear more about it. Please go to our website. So this is the first event. We had a very active
year last year, so we're not going to be
quite as active this year. But the next event, in addition
to tomorrow's workshop, then March 9 and
10, we will have an Intro to Tibetan Buddhists
practice workshop led by Professor Jose Cabezon from
the University of California Santa Barbara. And that's on the
9th, Sunday the 9th. It's the 9th and
10th or the 10th and 11th, whatever is
the Sunday and Monday. We also have Professor Dougles
Christie from Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. He'll be talking on Christian
contemplative practice. And that's on
April 9, I believe. And those are the main-- AUDIENCE: There's
something on the April 22. HAL ROTH: Right. And we're going to have another
workshop on Zen practice on Sunday April 22 led by
Abbot Masaki Matsubara. So if you want to learn
more, just go to our website, and you'll have a list of
our events and so on there. So I want to say a few
words of introduction to our speaker
tonight, [INAUDIBLE].. So it's been kind of fun
today to kind of touch base with Taka again. Back a long time,
30, 35, 36 years ago when I was a post-doctoral
scholar at Tohoku University in Sendai, I got a chance to do
a year's worth of intensive Zen practice a week at the same,
very same monastery, where Taka himself trained
many years later. He's several
generations younger. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: [INAUDIBLE] HAL ROTH: We were
actually introduced by an old friend of mine who-- he was in grad school
when I was in undergrad who became a very famous
Japanese art historian and who now-- anybody ever been to the Los
Angeles County Museum of Art? Nobody in the room. Yes? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: [INAUDIBLE] HAL ROTH: And then there's
the Japanese pavilion there. Rob Singer set up. So it was through Rob Singer
that I ended up meeting Taka. Now it's going to be, I
guess, three years ago coming up this spring. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Yeah. HAL ROTH: So but today we were
kind of geeking out about, you know, practicing
in the mon-- monastic practice is very
difficult and challenging, you know, you get
up really early. You do a lot of meditation. There is very strict discipline. There's no talking
throughout the week. It's a kind of-- it's a kind
of a unique, challenging atmosphere all its own. But those of us who've
been through it, it's kind of like, you kind
of have a bond that, you know, we have kind of done it. We've kind of seen the
strengths and weaknesses of it, and we've kind of
survived [INAUDIBLE].. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Survived, that's right. HAL ROTH: And so it was a
lot of fun to kind of geek out over intensive,
you know, waking up at 3:30 in the morning, and
going to sleep at 11:00, and being yelled at
in the meditations. I mean, somehow, it
sounds a little perverse, but it's kind of-- kind of a bonding experience. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: It's true. HAL ROTH: And but one of the
really interesting things that Taka is doing- so,
you know, in Japan, Rinzai is fairly conservative. And it's kind of
stuck in many ways in a lot of the
values and attitudes of 17th, 18th century. And there is a kind of-- there's a lot to
be said for that. But on the other hand, there's
a lot to be said for innovation and bringing kind of age-old
spiritual traditions, bringing them up to date
into the 21st century. And one of the really
important things that Taka is doing
at his temple, he's in temple, one
of, what, 50 temples within the grounds of the-- TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: 46 yeah. HAL ROTH: This is kind of vast
monastery, monastic complex in the middle of-- just north of the center
of Kyoto called Myoshinji. It has walls around it. Imagine this giant
college campus with a bunch of
like small colleges. And that's kind of the
model that, you know, it's not misleading to
think of it that way. So Taka is the vice abbot
of the Shunkoin Temple. And he has a guest house there. If any of you are traveling
to Japan, look him up online, and you'll find it's a
wonderful place to stay. But Taka is doing something
really interesting. He's trying to
bring, in many ways, Rinzai Zen into the 21st
century, kind of modernize it. He's done a lot to work
with the mindfulness, Western mindfulness
traditions that have been brought into
Japan more recently through the scientific
research and innovation of Jon Kabat-Zinn. He's also a very,
very progressive in that he supports LGBTQ,
and he, you know, the only-- maybe the only Rinzai cleric
to do marriage ceremonies. And he's, in many ways,
trying to innovate I think in many important ways. So it's really-- it's an honor
to have Taka with us today. And this is his first
time on the East Coast. He bought himself a
really heavy parka. I think he thought he
was going to Alaska. Please join me in giving
Taka a warm welcome. [APPLAUSE] TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Well, thank you so much. He joked about my jacket
because I freaked out, you know, freaked out about
the that bomb cyclone you guys had three weeks ago I just
freaked out because I was like, oh my god, it's going to
be like minus 20 degrees, and I'm going to be like-- you know, freeze to die
or something like that. So that's why I bought like
some like expedition like kind of like jacket in a way. So I'm here. But it's kind of-- tomorrow
is going to be warm, and the day after
tomorrow, really warm. So I just go [INAUDIBLE] sweat. So that's my fault right now. So yeah, how can I mention-- you almost talked about
my introduction part. So that's great. So, yeah, no, no, no
need to have problems. So as he mentioned,
living this-- one of the temples in,
like, one of the subtemples in a huge temple complex
but also that one is the headquarters
of Myoshinji School. In a way, they're one of
the largest, actually, they are the largest
Rinzai schools in Japan. So in a way that-- that kind of experience I have
in the headquarters of this, you know, what Myoshinji
school, by the way, studies in the 14th century. Then, in a way, those traditions
passed down to the generation, to the next generation,
to the next generation, you know, still continue today. Then in a way that-- but still
we, actually-- but you know, each generation faces
different issues. But right now, many
Japanese temples are suffering
tremendously because of, you know, first of all,
social structures change, you know, basically every
traditions in Japan, not just the Buddhist tradition,
the Shinto tradition, which is an indigenous religion in
Japan, also tea schools, tea ceremony schools, flower
arrangement, also kimono, all the traditions are suffering
in a way because, first of all, family structure changed. You know, so Japan was
a kind of old fashioned like a Asian tradition in a
way, you know, grandparents, and, you know, parents, and
the kids lived together. That is the old fashioned way. Then in that case,
it's really easy to see that-- easy
for us to pass down the traditions because,
like, in my case, I lived with grandma,
the grandmother. So in a way, I
just, you know, she took me-- well, you know,
she took me back in the yard because we have a cemetery--
because it was a temple. It was kind of an unusual
setting for, you know, it's not like every
Japanese family have a-- their family too was
in the back yard, but we just, you know,
go there almost every day to pray in front of
ancestors' tombs, but also take me to the
prayer hall, you know, give her flowers, give
an incense offering, something like that. But even like disregard
Japanese house, they have this family altar,
if you go to the old house. Then so, you know, in a
way, since we were children, we are seeing
what's my, you know, what's our grandparents doing
so without any instruction or logical explanation,
tradition just passed down to next generation. So this was a seamless
transition in a way. So many move people moved
into the urban areas of Japan, right? So then, you know, they don't
live in those ancestral homes anymore, or, you know,
those hometowns anymore. So that's why-- so in
a way that, just, you know, core family in a
way, parents and kids. So they never seen
what grandparents did, you know, in the previous-
from the previous generation. So that's way right now, if
I need to teach traditions to places I often teach
classes at the high schools and universities in
Japan, also, sometimes in a corporation invited me
to talk about traditions. But I need to explain things
logically, kind of a step by step approach. Right? But, basically, that is
a very important approach in a way in these days
because people don't know. It means people don't really
see the traditions anymore. They didn't grow up
in the traditional-- they haven't seen the tradition
when they were growing up. So that's why we need to
approach it logically, why we do this, what's
the reasoning here, you know, all kind of thing. Then but this kind of thing,
for instance, and one thing I recommend that
one is, in a way, a reason why I said I'm
working on the mindfulness, one reason why is
actually mindfulness is a logical approach, right? Then that approach is
helping me to actually teach about Buddhism,
or Zen traditions or traditions in Japan as well. But at same time, it's logical
and also a linear approach, a step by step approach. There are some
issues, I found out. So then that's actually a
reason why we actually-- I wanted to bring
more Zen tradition, especially in your
program in a way. So it's not linear. It's not logic-- you know, just
logical analytical approach. So that kind of thing actually
helps us to actually embody this type of practice. Then mindfulness, for instance,
if you think about it right now, so mindfulness right
now based on which tradition? Anyone? Anyone practice
mindfulness here? Think of which traditions
they are based on. AUDIENCE: Vipassana. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Vipassana, right? AUDIENCE: The Rinzai tradition? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Not
Rinzai, unfortunately. AUDIENCE: Insight. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Insight Insight. So it's Vipassana, right? In the Vipassana case, then-- so it's quite a
step-by-step approach. It's a linear
approach, in a way. Then if you can think about,
you know, a difference between the Western philosophy
and the Eastern philosophy, they have a major difference--
they have different approaches because Western
philosophy tends to have an analytical, logical,
linear thinking, right? But Eastern approach,
especially the Asian philosophy, is based on holistic,
also dialectic approach. Then why Tara Buddha
Buddhism become mostly based off mindfulness practice? I mean, of course, you
know, Jon Kabat-Zinn also Richard Davidson, they
practice inside the meditation that Vipassana tradition
first, and [INAUDIBLE] too. But that's the logical-- I mean, linear approach. So that's easier for
the Western culture to adapt that kind of tradition. Then a good example,
for instance, also kind of a linear thing,
kara-tay, or karate, the change from a linear approach. In Japan's case, they didn't
have any colors of belt originally. They only had black and white. You were a master,
or you were not. That's it. Right? But when they moved
to the West, they started having this
linear approach. But this part here really kind
of-- there's the issue about. Then you know, if
look at karate, you can see the issue there,
because, for instance, if you practice karate
association in Japan, a long time they refused
to join the Olympic games. You know, anyone
can guess a reason? What's happened to professional
athletes or Olympics athlete? AUDIENCE: Because
of competition? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Competition that's good-- that's still, even traditional,
probably we have a competition. But-- AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Hmm? AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
That's one thing. Yeah. But recently, some people
practicing meditation started using those,
you know biohacking things, and the pills, and,
you know, like a food, yeah? AUDIENCE: Commercial marketing? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Commercial
marketing, that's part. But, you know, any professional
athlete or Olympic athlete, end of their career was this,
what is the end of the career? Because they are retired, right? They retired from
their practice. But there is not such a thing
in retirement in original karate or any of those, you know,
martial arts, actually, because the reason why was
because martial arts itself is not the goal, right? It's just a method
to learn about life. So that's it's a total
embodiment, right? But in a way, the
step-by-step approach-- so that's actually the one neg-- I can see that's one
of the negative side of the step-by-step
approach, you know, or you know this is
Westernized version of karate, or even you can see kind of
mindfulness part a little bit, you know, in a way. So the Tara Buddha tradition-- I'm not criticizing
Tara Buddha tradition, but Tara Buddha
tradition had a kind of easier entrance for the
Western society because they had a kind of linear
approach, right? So first, they have a
samatha, so calming, and also developing concentrate--
and then the next step, you develop concentration. Then you move to inside
the meditation, really a step-by-step approach, right? Then they clearly are
using that one right now, I mean, even from the beginning. And then I think,
even like if you're look in that old, like, sutra,
like text like [INAUDIBLE] Passana, it's really
kind of, you know, there is this like a
step-by-step instruction. And that's why I actually
Tara Buddha tradition attracted many psychologists. But in a way, in the
mindfulness practice, again, see the issue
there that people actually just focus on this technique
part inside then done, right? Also, I can see the
Western Zen tradition too. For instance, if you
kind of look at the two-- I mean, for instance,
Zen tradition, this focus on Japanese
Zen tradition, I don't-- I am not really exposed
to Korean or Chinese Zen tradition. So I don't talk about
that, for instance, in the two major
traditions in Japanese Zen. For instance, who else-- who
practices Zen tradition here? Which one you practice? AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Hmm? AUDIENCE: Korean. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Korean, OK. Anyone practice in Japanese Zen
tradition except Hal and Jason? AUDIENCE: I do Chinese stuff. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Oh,
you do Chinese stuff. Well, Hal and me have the same-- we practice the same
tradition because we basically coming from same-- Rinzai tradition, right? But anyone practice
Soto tradition? Soto tradition. And then, for
instance, you know, if you actually look for the Zen
centers in the United States, where you find the more
Soto traditions, But also not only in the United States,
but in Europe, same way. You probably find a more
Soto tradition there. One reason why it was actually
over the issue of the Zen Master title too. How it was called? Popcorn roshi, it
came like a popcorn like in the '60s and '70s. But, also, the reason why they
wer accepted in the West more than Rinzai was they have
strict rules, more like, for instance, how you
lay down when you sleep, which side, you know,
you can lay down. And you don't sleep on the back. Actually, it's-- I think you lay
down on the left side, no, no, sorry, right side. Right side. Yeah. Then, also, you know, you
have this almost detailed instruction of how you
eat, and how you sit down, all kind of thing. But Rinzai's case is almost
like freestyle almost. There's more of a
kind of freedom. But why, you know, normally
people normally choose free-- freestyle, right? But why this one
didn't work out? I mean, like for
instance, people actually chose Soto more. Why? What do you think? AUDIENCE: The structure
gives a kind of safety. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Safety,
yeah, that's right. That's a major thing because
they know that, for instance, Rinzai tradition is kind
of hard, like, you know, they like, OK, I mean,
Rinzai, but, OK, so what-- what am I supposed to do, right? So people like--
people get nervous. I think I'm studying
Rinzai, kind of way, you know, always kind
of question mark. But Soto-- yeah? AUDIENCE: Yeah, I think
it's Western versus Eastern philosophy. We have more rules. It's more linear. That's why it became
more popular [INAUDIBLE].. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Exactly. But also, yeah, they
actually, you know, they can confirm
themselves as they actually practice in Soto because
I'm following these rules. I'm doing this one this
way with that way so they can identify themselves. I am practicing. I'm Soto practitioners, easily. I mean, the rules are
in a way, for instance, if you think about-- even as a traditions,
you know, rules, for instance, dietary
restrictions, you know, many religions have a-- different religions have
dietary restrictions, right? They actually,
first of all, they can isolate from other
groups because in a way, if you're eating food and
then, say, you know, oh, I can eat pork,
you know, and it's hard to invite-- you know,
for instance, if somebody had a dietary restriction,
you know, for instance, you have friends,
all kind of friends, you know, and then,
you know, if somebody have dietary restrictions, it'd
be hard to choose a restaurant, right? Or when you inivite
somebody, you know, people from
different, you know, faith. It's really hard to choose
what are you going to make. But in a way, that
in the past, it's worked to isolate their own
group from the other ones, right? Because eating food actually
creates a tremendous bonding experience if you're
eating together. But, oh, I have this dietary
restriction, but, you know, they don't have it. But we want to actually, you
know, we have this restriction. So that's why, you
know, you can only hang out with these people
in the same in the faith, something like that too. Then also [INAUDIBLE],,
I mean, then the-- as a part there is
that when you actually go out with somebody
else, then if you have dietary restriction, you
can identify yourself easily your faith. I mean, for instance, oh, you
know, other people eating pork, so I cannot eat it or
other people eating meat, I cannot eat it. By the way, I'm not vegetarian
for anything, but you know, so that-- I will talk about
that one later. But something like so you
can identify yourself easily. But this is also
things, you know, if you kind of compare
Buddhist tradition and Abrahamic revision, what's a
major difference teaching wise? AUDIENCE: God. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: God? OK. So for instance, God there,
but how about Buddhism? I mean, Abrahamic God, you there
your Allah or different names, but they have a concept
notion of almighty, right? How about Buddhism? In the beginning, OK. I should say that
more specifically, the beginning of Buddhism. AUDIENCE: No self. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: No,
no, no self, but there's no notion of an Almighty, right? So then one of
oldest Buddhist texts even mentioned that
Buddha says that I'm also a religious studies scholar. So, you know, OK, hypothetically
say the history of it actually existed, well, in
the text, he's-- in a-- I think that's
the Pali Canon. He mentioned that
don't make his statue. Don't worship me, you
know, because he's a human. So that's why in in the
early Buddhist tradition, they had either
hand print of Buddha or a footprint of Buddha. They didn't make a statue. Statues things
came out, you know, what because of a Hindu
influence or Central Asian traditions actually changed the
Buddhism completely, but also, because they didn't have
this notion the almighty. So that's why easy
to localize, right? But go back to the point
is so the beginning, there's actually, for
instance, Buddhism and also Abrahamic religion how they
consider the teachings are tremendously different. So for instance, the
Abrahamic religion, the teachings are anyone? So you see the all the-- you
know, rules there, right? They're commandments, right? Commandment. So in a way, you
have to follow this because I'm a perfect being. I made a rule. If you follow this
one, you go to heaven, whatever, you know, people
talk about that one, right, depending on the tradition,
well, mostly heaven, but-- but for instance, a
Buddhist tradition, if you actually
see the old texts, what's their tone of voice? What kind of tone
of voice do they have in all Buddhist texts? AUDIENCE: Much
more compassionate. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: More
compassion, yeah, that's true. AUDIENCE: It's more
like a dialogue. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Dialogue, right? But also-- anyone? I saw a hand move
here, but I'm afraid I might be hallucinating. AUDIENCE: I don't
know if I'm imposing. I may be imposing all sorts
of Western stuff on this, but this is like an
empirical approach, you know, try it for yourself. If it's not useful,
don't use it. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: That's true. That's the important part
because Buddhist teaching is suggestions. AUDIENCE: Right. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: You know? AUDIENCE: Suggestions,
not commandments. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Not commandment, yeah. It's basically suggestions. It's not commandment. Even like you can say certain
section of a Buddhist text saying, you know, I read
this enlightenment this way, then you can try it, but it
may not work, so you think. You know, they give
you a space to think. I mean, that's why
in the Buddhism case a critical thinking is a very
important part, actually. They give you space to,
you know, own thinking. But in Abrahamic religions
case,you know, traditionally, it's more like, you know,
don't doubt my words, you know? You believe it.
because-- you do it because I said so type
of approach, right? But Buddhism case, so
they had this notion of a more like suggestions. So that's why, if you think
about that, so if you actually grew up in a Abrahamic religious
tradition, they have the rule, it's easy to adapt a tradition
rather than just do it, you know? This might work. But this one here, actually,
recently, my friend conducted studies in Japan. It's actually a news show. He used a news show about-- so what he did was he actually--
there are two commentators. Then one he interacted
one commentator always have to use the word
absolutely or definitely so definitely this way, that way. Then then my friend instruct the
other commentator as saying-- always says maybe or possibly. Then, actually, this
is the human tendency. So which commentator, I mean,
audience, which commentator did they believe most? AUDIENCE: The dogmatic one. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: The
dogmatic one, right? So dogmatic one, we
have a human tendency that we tend to believe
the dogmatic one. So if somebody said
it's definitely this way or that way,
even like, you know, logic is all wrong or even
like wrong information, we tend to believe that. AUDIENCE: You mean
like fake news? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Fake news. Fake news, yeah, in a way,
or Trump, can't say that. But that's actually
a human tendency because if somebody, you know,
have a dogmatic approach, you don't need to
think, you know? But if somebody is saying that
the possibility or, you know, in a way, kind of like, oh,
maybe this way or possibly this way, you need to think. You have to use
your brain again. So that's why we tend
to actually kind of rely on this diplomatic approach. I mean, we tend to take the
dogmatic, you know, comment, as a fact, you know. So there's actually
an issue there. I mean, you know, because
of this the sort of approach and really kind
of, this is a rule. This is-- you know,
you follow this way. So that's why in a way that
people feel more comfortable, actually, feel more comfortable
to, comfortable, but also easier for them to identify. But Rinzai tradition,
on the other hand, it's really I say more
freestyle, give you lots of space to think. But, also, this linear
approach, the issue there is-- or, actually, the
linear approach issue there is, I say
retirement party, you know, it's kind of
lacking embodiment in a way. So, for instance, you
do this one first. And then if you're done,
you go to the next step. Then if do this
one, then you go up to the next step kind of way. But, eventually,
people actually feel-- get comfortable in
a certain level. And then they give
up-- sometimes they give up their practice
or, actually, they feel like I step up this
level until this level. So I'm better than other people
something kind of approach, [INAUDIBLE]. Then especially in today's
case, if you think about this-- I can't really-- contemplative? AUDIENCE: Contemplative. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
So I have issue-- I even said it this way, I
have an issue of pronunciation [INAUDIBLE],,
contemplative study, OK? So, you know, in a way,
I had some discussion with researchers in these
days, and then my issue was people were really
focusing on what-- more like they have
tended to raise heavy on the analytical
approach, but also this step-by-step approach. So that's why they
actually focus on the small part of
this practice, not really kind of talking
about the embodiment. Then I counted once-- I told one researcher, you know,
I borrowed one from David Mark. He was a neuro-- he
was a psychologist. He passed away 30--
well, he was 35. But he actually creates
some of their research too. But once he said, if you want
to understand how birds fly, you need to see-- you need
to have different approaches. You cannot just look in the
feather to understand how birds fly, right? But right now it's, you
know, this field here, really people just focus
on like small things, like just breathing,
how breathing influences over mental
conditions, or postures, or a different technique how
they influence our stress levels, something like that way. But, you know, the embodiment
party, of course, we-- I'm not saying that the
analytical, logical, linear approach is wrong. We need to have those. I'm going to about
the reason why later. But for instance, you know, how
I experience a monastic life. So especially, how far
we had a difficulty in, you know, along its part
two, but because the region he went-- there was really
thick regional accent. And I went to the
same monastary, but I came from
different regions. So I actually had a hard
time to understand sometimes, you know, some of my
senior practitioners. But for instance, a
monastery, the first day you joined there, unlike
this type of class, they don't give me any
instruction, you know? Well, first, they have
like an entrance ritual thing, like three days. You kind of bow like this one
in the entrance for three days. In the first two days,
like, we do like this. So this there is a huge, like
a big step in the entrance. We kind of bow like
this like three days. You cannot move much. And the purpose actually
some of the priest come after lunchtime. They throw us away. So they say, no,
we don't need you. You know, you're not worthy. So just go away. So they give us time to
walk around, you know, remove our back pain
or something like that. Then we come back and do that
ritual again, three days. Then the next three,
two, that's on two days. Then the next three
days, we actually sent to some like isolated
room and then just meditate for three days. Then after the ritual is
done, entrance ritual is done, they actually, finally, they
send us to the meditation hall. But when you go there,
there's no instruction. So we didn't know what to do. But what's happening is
that you hear done some-- if you do something wrong,
they just yell at you. They just yell at you. They just don't
give us any reason. Then try a different way,
and if they still yell-- I mean, for instance my case,
you know, so first day I went there, I was-- I had some wrong entrance-- way of entering the room,
so they yelled at me. And I have no idea, because
they don't tell me what to do. Then I tried to sit down
in my own sitting place. And then I probably
did something wrong, and they yelled at me. But they don't tell
me any reason, right? And, of course, now
then constantly people are yelling at me. I get nervous, right? But then I think about
what I need to do. And I check other people. Then I try to figure out
what's going on around there. Then I tried a
different approach, but they still yell at you. Then that kind of continues
like the first two months. Probably I wasn't
a good student. That's probably that's why too. So but two months, the
people keep yelling at you, but they don't tell the
reason, right, instead of the step-by-step
approach, you know? It's like, oh,
you are a new one. So when you're working,
you need to do this one. Then before you sit there in
your own meditation place, you need to do this one. But you can see the
difference, right? In this case, you think about
how your attention works, how your attention works. Or what do you pay attention
to, the linear approach versus this type of, you
know, you do wrong, people, they'll fix it. How does your attention
work in this case? What do you pay attention to? This is really important. I kind of really tried
to emphasize this part. And I think this is a
really important part of-- one reason why we need
to kind of bring out the Zen tradition
to the 21st century, especially in this field. They help us with embodiment. What do you think? What's actually the-- how you
paying attention differently? AUDIENCE: One focuses
on what you did wrong. The other one focuses on
showing on what to do right. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Yeah. AUDIENCE: Is it like the
logical approach maybe you're focusing on the future
things you're thinking ahead, so your attention isn't
in the present moment. Whereas, you never know
what you're doing right. If they yell at you,
I mean, there you are. You're taken off guard. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: OK,
that's where-- yeah, that's one point, two points. But how-- AUDIENCE: Pay attention
to everything? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Pay
attention to everything, right? Because the
step-by-step approach, you're just like, oh,
that is what I need to do. So I need to be
careful about this one. Then next thing you
know, you do it wrong, but people tell you--
you know, tells you, do this one next time. Then you pay attention
to that one, right? But almost like I say, yeah? AUDIENCE: We say that
everything is meditation. Everything you do is meditation,
eating, sleeping, walking. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Yeah, but this case is more about attention part. AUDIENCE: So if I
pay attention to-- I look and see somebody
else is doing it right, and he's not
getting yelled at, I was doing it the way
he is doing it maybe? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Something like that. So kind of-- you pay attention
to everything, right? You pay attention
to everything, you know, your surroundings and also
what other people do then also yourself. So your attention is not
just to one specific thing. You know, it's like because
linear approach because you-- OK, I need to care for
about this one right now, but next one, they give you-- they tell you what to do next. And then I need to
pay attention to this. I need to pay attention to
this, but not really, you know, the whole-- like a whole, like,
you know, in this way, you can learn about how-- what other people's beings
are, the being part. It's not about techniques
or manners only. But because, you know, this
type of tradition in a way, especially Buddhist
tradition actually the-- the goal there--
one of the goals there is changing
of beings, right? As a being, as a
human being, it's not just about how to take off
shoes or how you eat, right? It's more about how
this person lives. Then that's actually you can
see that in the monastery because, you know, I don't say
my teacher is really a superb example, you know that? But he's being there in
a way, teach you kind of, you know, I need to observe
how this person lives. I think-- I was a reading
Richard Davidson's book, and he actually wrote the
example of a Jewish rabbi story, I think Rabbi
Behr or something. I forgot his name. But his disciple actually, you
know, started living with him. And then some other
lady asked him, what did you word from him? What do you-- what do you
want to learn from him? He say, first, I want to
see how he ties his shoes. Right? So in a way, I think
that, you know, good, you know, that's a great
explanation about learning about the embodiment. It's not just about,
you know, this is a ritual you should learn. This is a meditation
you should learn. But that's because you
can learn how people live. I mean, the karate part there,
go back to karate part too because the karate part, in a
way, linear approach, in a way, or concept of retirement
there, they just focus on the [INAUDIBLE]
part or how to kick-- how to slow the punch, you know,
or how to protect yourself. But in a way, back
then was the idea was actually you live with the
master and learn how he lives. Then you can also
learn about karate. Then at my temple,
in my temple actually there's a really, there's
actually the painting done by [INAUDIBLE] artist. There is actually a room-- the theme there is
the four pasttimes of Chinese Confucian scholars. So there's actually-- so
entire room surrounded by-- one room surrounded
by screen paintings, each side showing a different
hobbies of Chinese confucianist scholars. Then one side, actually, they
are playing a board game, Go, Japanese kind of checkers kind
of thing, but more complicated. I don't know how to play it. Then on the second side
is they are playing music, a stringed instrument. And then the third side,
they are reading poetry. And the fourth side
is they actually are enjoying the paintings. And that was a really
popular theme between, I should say, especially
between the 17th century and mid-19th century. Than actually the theme they
often use in the castle. I mean, for
instance, Edo Castle, we don't have it anymore
now the Imperial Palace. But Edo Castle, well, that
was the Shogun's castle. So Shogun's son's room actually
they had that theme with-- instead of grown
up, but children. But also at the castle,
they had such kind of room, especially for the vassals
or high-ranking officers. It was back then, especially
between the 17th century and mid-19th
century, Confucianism was a really important
subject for the warrior class. It was like-- they used it for
the government exam actually. So that's why in a way,
they were forced to study-- encouraged to
study Confucianism. But, you know, that room theme
of room with theme and painting like that one, you
know, they're not really encouraging
study the Confucianism. They're just showing
their hobbies. You see this message there? Because in a way that, you
know, they actually kind of, in a say, you know,
they're encouraging people to study Confucius, but,
you know, don't just study the textbook. You should live like them. You know, you practice
their hobbies. It's not directly
connected to Confucianism, you know, paintings,
music, playing board games. And what else I miss? AUDIENCE: Poetry. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Poetry right? It's not really directly
connected to the Confucianism, but that was their hobbies,
considered their main hobbies. So you practice their
hobbies as well. So you live like them. So you start thinking like them. So that's the kind of approach
you can see that there. I mean, so it's
kind of embodiment. Then that painting
becomes really-- in a way, you know,
always wanting to talk about this
type of thing. That kind of thing
becomes really a kind of a major
part of my talk because every summer I teach
MIT's internship programs in Japan. I teach the culture part. Then every year, a couple of
students-- so they actually go to Japan and do
the internship in some like Japanese National
Research Centers or some like research center
of major companies. Then always some few students
they are actually telling me the Japanese company
and institutions, they don't teach us anything. You know, I'm so frustrated
because I came to Japan. I want to learn something, but
they don't teach me anything. Always a couple of students
are telling me, you know, giving me, such kind of give
me such kind of comment. Then I told them that
they don't give you the step-by-step approach. It is about, you know,
you need to see that how people are actually working. You need to observe, same as
like a monastery in a way. You know, they
don't yell at you. But in a way, they actually,
you know, kind of like-- they say that, you know,
the student told me that, OK, for me,
for them, actually, they feel like they're
invisible because they don't interact with them. But, you know, because you need
to observe, you know, other, you know, people doing their
research or working there. You need to really
observe them how do they actually live there. So that's really
the important part. Then I think that's kind
of the thing we actually need to bring Zen tradition,
especially those monastic kind of approach, to the
practice to because we need to actually understand,
you know, it's not just a bad-- understand things
logically, intellectually, it's not like that. You need to have embodiment
of this type of practice especially. Right? But I mean, for instance,
[INAUDIBLE] well, in the same organization,
the one part, you know, one-- there were three parts. One is actually research. And then the second
part, the philosophy, the intellectual understanding. The third part
there is practice. But sometimes scholars
skip this practice part. Then there's just talking
about the effect of meditation or something like that. But, you know, this embodiment
part is quite important. But, also, if you think
about Zen's case, you know, in some level can be kind
of logical too because in meditation itself, it's
kind of the preparation to deal with the core
and the Zen question, especially the Rinzai
traditions case. So, you know, in meditation,
it's more like a samatha part, so calming down
developing concentration. Then, you know, the
second part is more like an actual jena
part, you know, that become the
original word Zen. But so in a way, we need to
have an insight approach. But the inside approach
there kind of-- not like, you know, we are kind of
paying attention to ourself, you know, how you
perceive, you know, but the perceiving
part, actually, the question there is actually
the koan practice or Zen riddle part, in a way, asks try
to remove your stereotypes or try to remove our
fixed image about reality. So Zen's case, the Zen
riddle, part, you know, you actually leave
the monastery. So you learn this one
is the embodiment, but also, then you start
questioning yourself, how am I looking at reality? What kind of perspective am
I using, perspective I have? But, you know, as
a human, we tend to actually develop something
concrete, image about reality, or concrete image of it ourself. But we need to keep questioning. So that's actually
koan practice. Then that part
there, you know, it makes us kind of
uncertain, right? But uncertainty is a reality,
I mean, for instance. You know, we actually, for
instance, in these days, we use reality as a
certain thing, right? Where if some philosophy major
here probably would say, no, it's not in the right way
because, for instance, if you say reality,
what's real, right? Anyone checked word
originally real? Have you checked that, meaning
actually word originally real? The word real coming from
Latin word res, R-E-S, no wait, R-A-S-, sorry, ras, no,
wait, R-A-S, yeah, ras. Then, actually, if you
see the meaning there, it is things that matter,
which have uncertain origin. So the word original
reality, real, was actually some--
you know, in a way that something matters,
have an uncertain origin. So in a way, we always
think-- you use the word real. That's a reality. That's real. That's a concrete thing,
but, actually, originally, that is not-- that's actually not a
certain thing, right? So in that case,
actually, we actually are really questioning about
how actually looking at reality. That's the idea. But, you know, this type of
thing, in a way, for instance, you know, if you think
about those behaviors, you see, you know,
there's a learning process in the monastery too. I mean, well, you
think you are right, and then they yell
at you, right? Then you try again. Then the they yell
at you, fix it. Then they actually
keep doing it. Even if like I spend
like a whole year, but even like lastly,
they yell at me, you know? You do something
wrong, and then-- and then, also,
how long have you practiced with the roshi,
the [INAUDIBLE] roshi? HAL ROTH: Over 40 years. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: 40 years. But did he say, oh,
you're right, ever? HAL ROTH: He passed me at koans. But he never used the
term tadashi or anything. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Right. So master keeper actually
questioning your approach to the reality. That's kind of inhabiting
the way you actually develop, you know,
living, you know, in that kind of environment. So, actually, that's
why you know, in a way, what I wanted to
really emphasize is this type of thing-- really the embodiment
is really important because the intellectual
understanding, yes, you know, that's important
because for instance, the Rinzai approach, in a way,
or monastic approach, [SNEEZE] weakness there is, bless
you, the mistake we tend to become tradition sometimes. Somebody makes a
mistake, and then they start yelling at the kid-- like a greenhorn and
say, oh, you're wrong. Fix it. But this mistake,
you know, in a way, passed down to the next
generation as well. But, also, sometimes,
you know, that's a reason-- that's
another reason why I tried to incorporate
a Western approach to it and analytical logical linear
thinking because there's not analysis. so. That's why sometimes
the adjustment to the change in
society is extremely slow because, in a way,
the senior members keep telling you, OK, fix
it, fix it, fix it, but doesn't tell you a reason. Sometimes, actually,
those, you know, they tend to hold on to
their predecessor's approach, all the time. So that's why it's
actually in a way that sometimes there's
a gap between what's happening outside of a
monastery, and, you know, in the monastery. So in a way, that basically
happened in Japanese Buddhism, the tradition left, you know,
left out from the modern world. So that's why they lost the
members or they lost, you know, a number of temples
because, you know, there's no member,
of course, there's no financial resource
for the temple. And then probably some
people might know that, but guess how many
temples in Japan. How many Buddhist
temples are in Japan? Anybody? Rough number. AUDIENCE: 1,500? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: 1,500. AUDIENCE: 60,000. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: 60,000? Anyone? So Jason was closer,
actually, 70,000. AUDIENCE: Oh, that was good. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Actually,
more specific now, 75,000. AUDIENCE: Zen temples, or just-- TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: This is
all temples, Buddhist temples in Japan. AUDIENCE: How big is Japan
compared to the United States? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Hmm? AUDIENCE: How big
is Japan in area compared to the United States? AUDIENCE: The size
of California. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: California,
and by population wise right now, it's about 100 million
people, 110 million, maybe, it's kind of
declining anyway. We have a low birth rate. We don't have even
like a one child anymore, 0.7 or something
like that of a birth rate, by the way. So again, so 100,000
people, 100 million people, than 75,000 temples, right? Then how about number
of convenience stores? How about number of
convenience stores? AUDIENCE: 250,000 AUDIENCE: A million. AUDIENCE: A million. They have a lot of 7-Elevens. AUDIENCE: 7-Elevens? 500,000. AUDIENCE: 10 million? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
No, actually, number of convenience stores in Japan
is about 50,000 to 60,000. AUDIENCE: Wow! TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
So the temples has-- more temples than
convenience stores. AUDIENCE: By a lot. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: But that's
one-- that's one, you know, so I didn't include-- I didn't include, for instance,
Shinto shrines, right? So that's actually the other
major religion in Japan. By the way, you know,
people overlap, you know? For instance, if I use, you
know, CIA Factbook number, 78% of Japanese
people are Buddhist. And 84% of Japanese people
are Shinto believers. So the total exceeded 100%
because there's overlap, right? And there's a book called
Practically Religious. There's a book like that. So you can see the Japanese
people choose a religion for the specific reasons,
different religion, specific reason or occasions. Classic parties now, people get
married in the Christian style or Shinto style, you know, due
the funeral in Buddhist style. Then every New Years,
they go to Shinto shrine so something like that. So if you think about-- so
Japanese temples right now, they have a 70-- they have 75,000 temples,
but convenience stores are between 50,000 to 60,000. Right? But if you think about it, how
many people actually went to-- for instance, I'm here in Japan,
I mean, the United States right now, but yesterday, how
many Japanese people went to convenience stores? How many percentage of people
went to convenience stores? Probably almost 100%. I should say probably about 90%
of people went to a convenience store yesterday in Japan. But the same question, how
many actually-- how many people went to Buddhist temple
yesterday in Japan? AUDIENCE: Probably
only for funerals. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Yeah
only funeral or maybe for the sightseeing
reasons, right? But, you know, people tend
to take the same approach again and again and again. So that's actually
kind of, you know, negative side of this like
a zen approach sometimes. But, actually, in
order to take-- you know, but I'm
not saying that-- so as a holistic and
dialectic approach in a way and the
comparing that one is analytical, logical,
linear thinking, I'm not saying which is
worse and which is better? We need to have both approaches. So in Japan's case,
we need to have this analytical,
logical, linear approach. So that's why I kind of tried to
bring in a mindfulness approach to Japan, especially try
to preserve the tradition. So they knew I
wanted to teach them more logically so the young
people can understand, oh, this is why we need to actually
practice Buddhism, or something like that. You know, at least,
you know, I need to make people have an
interest in Buddhism. That's a kind of interest. But for instance, this side
here, on the other hand, the Western side, West side,
in a way, because, you know, research part or, you know,
Buddhism [INAUDIBLE] originally adapted accepted as more-- adapted an intellectual--
adapted intellectually, right? Actually, for instance, probably
if you ask about Buddhism to the Japanese people,
they will have no idea. They think, oh, OK, I think
at my grandmother's house, we have a family altar, Buddhist
style, so I think I'm Buddhist. But if you ask them,
so what's actually the main teaching of Buddhism? Or what do you need to
do to be a Buddhist? People have no idea. But for instance, here,
on the other hand, if people actually want Buddhism
more academically first. So people can define what
is Buddhism, what Buddhists shouldn't do, should
do kind of thing, but lacking this
embodiment part, right? So that's why, in a way, the
people who learning Buddhism were having a hard time to
incorporate that something in their everyday life. That's what I feel
sometimes when I actually teach a
workshop here or I actually give a lecture here. I mean, people actually,
yeah, you know, if I use some fancy Sanskrit
[INAUDIBLE] people have not more here than in Japan. People are like-- kind of like
what is this guy talking about? Which language is that
kind of way, right? But unfortunately, Japan
also was the embodiment part that, you know,
here now is the time to introduce
embodiment part, you know, kind of how
we actually live. It's not just about specific,
you know, a part of life, like, you know,
people talking about, oh, you know, I meditate because
I want to reduce my stress. Or I meditate because I want to
be more productive or creative. It's not like it that way. But how about, as
you know, as a being, as a human, how I can
actually change my being or how I can change actually
perspective in reality through this practice. But, also, you know, not
just about, you know, I practiced this
meditation thing. Well, I practiced this
tradition like five years. I'm done. It's not like that
way, you know? You want to actually use
this idea to kind of change your life or, actually, notice
about your change in your life more than kind of
like, you know, lifetime kind of, probably you
cannot find the right answer. That's Buddhism we know. It's not like you do this
one, you'll be saved. It's not like that because
[INAUDIBLE] a commandment. They actually give you-- there is a nice suggestion here. It's worked for me, but
I don't know about you. So you need to think, right? That's the approach. You should find
the Buddhist texts. So you need to have a constant
search for their meanings. But, you know, so because they
don't give you this instruction step-by-step approach. So you have to constantly
change in their approach, right? The adjustment, you need that. So that's why,
actually, you need to really kind of understand. And so that's one of the
reasons why when, you know, tomorrow too, I want to test
how your attention works. I probably do it a
really different way than you ever have done
the meditation, you know? But at the moment,
you now, kind of think about how
you paid attention. And what is this guy doing? I am not a really
good example, you know, Buddhist practitioner in a
way, but still kind of in a way that how does this guy-- how this guy, Eugene, or
how other people, like, Hal, for instance,
how he's actually, you know, using, not using,
but, you know, how he lives, you know? Pay attention to not about
your professor, not just about the academic part,
you know, his being. That's really kind of
teach you more than in his, you know, classroom, you know? So that doesn't mean you have
to follow him all the time. I don't want be his
stalker but, you know, but I think that's
kind of part there. He has, you know, probably
more practice than me. So that's, you know,
if you are in, know, probably you have more
occasion to see him unless you kind of, you know,
come to Japan to, you know, stay in my temple. So kind of, you know, not
just about what teachers say. It's, you know,
even like, you know, you joined some Zen center
or Vipassana center, or mindfulness,
you know, programs. Look at the teachers,
how he lives. You know, but in these
days, unfortunately, you can see many mindfulness
instructors and programs, you know, opened by corporations
or some interesting groups. People just focus in
those, you know, contexts. But you don't really
look at teachers, how as a human being, right? So that's why actually
this approach here, how does this person live? Learn from lifestyle, not
just about parts by parts. I mean, even like
Aristotle said, you know, sum is more than-- no, wholeness is the more than
the sum of the parts, right? So please have this
type of [INAUDIBLE].. So that's why I want to bring
out this kind of, you know, old-fashioned, Zen monastic
approach to the 21st century. But I want to combine it with,
you know, Western approaches. So that's, you know, I
want to bring out to the-- bring to the US more and more. Why not? And hopefully more into
Europe as well, but also bringing different
approaches to Japan to people to realize that
how this type of thing changed my life,
and how, you know, keep teaching me in a
different life stage, not just about the reading of
this Buddhist text, you know, this is the Buddhist
book about Buddhism. It's about how people are living
if he is studying Buddhism or by mindfulness, you
know, contemplative study. That's the focus on that. So any questions? [APPLAUSE] Did I talk long enough? AUDIENCE: Taka, I
just want to say that, in a very
elegant way, you've expressed one of the
fundamental rationales we have for establishing
Contemplative Studies and for including first-person,
critical first-person contemplative practice as
part of the concentration, as one of my elders
once put it, we are are not only trying to
teach critical thinking skills. We're trying to give you a
set of critical being skills that you can carry off
for the rest of your life. Yeah. AUDIENCE: So I have
a question just from the last few moments
that you were speaking. It sounds as though
you are interested and your intent is to
bring, as you said, the more analytic to
Japan and to bring some of the maybe
more open Rinzai here. And I'm wondering if you could
speak a little bit about, like, if that happened, yeah,
and you're coming here a lot, and you're bringing
a lot over there. What is your ideal of what
will coming of this project? What is your hope for
and point of some sort? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: I
say that I don't know. I say that I don't know. I'm just trying to find out
what might be good or change it, you know. Maybe the outcome
might be the long way. What I learned from this
type of thing, actually, there is a funny story my
friend told me because I tried to find the right way. Then my friend told
me that this story. So this is, I think-- so when the washing machine
was invented, so when was it? The '40s? '50? AUDIENCE: '40s. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: '40s, right? So in back then, OK, so it's
not gender equality or anything, right? So that's why, oh, you know,
let's invent a washing machine or those companies said,
oh, you know, liberating women from the laundry duties. We made them happier. But, actually, some
group of female got very upset about, you
know, invention of the laundry machine, I mean,
laundry machine. Anyone can guess why? Some of the group are female. They ruined-- this machine
is ruining my life. They're so furious. You know why? Anyone? So before the laundry
machine was invented, how did they wash their clothes? AUDIENCE: Their hands. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Hands, right? Where did they go? AUDIENCE: They went together. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Yeah,
they went together. They went to the communal well
or the communal washing place. So they said that, you
know, OK, laundry machine. Now we have to stay in
the home more, you know? In a way, no more
gossiping time. No chit chat anymore. They took my freedom,
free time, you know? I don't want to-- when washing dish--
you know, laundry. I'm doing the laundry. I don't want to-- i didn't see-- I didn't need to see my
husband's face or, you know, other families, whatever. So they were furious. Then, for instance,
you know, then that's actually
[INAUDIBLE] thing, [INAUDIBLE] automation part. But I involved in this-- I'm involved in this stem
cell research ethical things. For instance, this--
one of my friends is doing the research
at the Kyoto University. What-- he's not-- he's the case counselor,
but as a friend. So he is doing this
research about-- so stem cell research. So now just take
it one living cell. You can make one sperm-- 1,000 sperm and also
1,000 eggs, right? Well, he did it for,
you know, people having difficulty of getting pregnant. But then people started talking
about, well, this one leads us to the eugenicistic approach-- idea, because, you know,
while people stay-- of course, in the science, in a way, people
don't randomly choose those, you know, eggs and sperm. They actually
choose the best one. Then that is a
eugenicist, in a way. Then there is even a book
they are talking about, you know, in 50-- by 2050, we stop
having sex to reproduce because in that way, actually,
you can have more ideal babies. But you know, first of
all, that's a eugenicist. But also, the second part
there, people start having-- you know, so it's kind of a
designer's baby part, right? So the designer baby
part, you know, in a way that people started, you know-- it's going to be a
trend for the babies. This generation, in
a way, OK, people prefer this type of
characters for their own kids. In the next
generation, they, you know, then maybe 10 years
later, oh, that's no, all the facts-- you know,
like, all that's out of fashion right now. So, now, this trend
is this one, right? But the scary part there is
actually each generation, there's not much diversity. The probably start
looking similar. They start having similar
characters genetically. So that's because we-- you know, basically, we
lose our diversity, right? So in this case, is that a
good thing or a bad thing to actually develop then
technology to, you know, using stem cells to get them pregnant,
in getting babies, right? So but in a way,
we always end up in the conclusion somebody's
going to do it anyway. But the point here is
actually, you don't know. You know, I have no idea. I mean, I'm just
going it in a way. Maybe it works good,
and maybe it lead-- whatever we do,
actually, we end up, you know, we always
have issues anyway. So that actually--
that's actually an important part of this
dialectic approach, you know? We tend to make black and
white decisions, right? We say, oh, this is a good
thing or this is a bad thing. You know, we tend to make
such kind of judgment. But the reality is, we
don't know, you know? We say, oh, I'm
doing good things, but it's, you know, even
like I think Max Weber said, once Max Weber said, good
things come and do good things and bad things come
and do bad things. That's an immature
way of thinking. He that once. So in a way, I'm just doing it. Yeah. OK? Any questions? AUDIENCE: I wanted to just
make just a quick observation-- something that you-- I came from the
Catholic tradition, the Christian tradition,
and the parallels of what you said in terms of what's
going on with the Christian Church and, certainly,
the Catholic Church was just striking to me. As a matter of fact,
it was almost painful because I'm watching, you know,
an institution that I love and kind of came up through. And I understand all the
issues, but churches closing. Young people are
completely disconnecting. You know, so the parallel-- I didn't think I was going
to be coming here to hear that that's going on elsewhere. But I see the
commonality, and I'm going to be thinking a
lot about what is it? It's that disconnect
from reality. It's that disconnect
from the Pope even doing what he did over the last
few weeks-- just disconnect. And that will bring--
that will bring death. That will bring-- so in
a way, it's a good thing, but yet, the parallels
are so striking. Around the world, there is a
huge change, revolution going on, and that's a good thing. So I just wanted
to just give you the comment of how deeply that
resonated with a tradition that I love that I'm watching
die before my very eyes as well. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Thank you. AUDIENCE: So for
what it's worth. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Anybody? Jason? AUDIENCE: I liked that
by the end of the talk you came back to one of the
first stories you began with, which was just thinking about
the difference between learning about something from
one's grandmother and learning about it in
some sort of logical way, like from a book. You've returned to
this theme again. And so I guess I
was wondering, there seems to be a tension
then in sort of this-- I can see you responding
to these different needs and this desire to preserve the
tradition, but also change it. So there's a tension
between wanting to continue what's been
done and to bring it out. And so I guess I
wondered, how can you-- if what you're doing is
going into corporations and teaching them
in logical ways, how do you give them
a grandma experience? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Mhm. Oh, that's a good point. If this-- normally, like,
you know, they hire me for a long time, it works. But if they invite me
to just a one-time talk, it's like, just you know,
just talking in logical part, you know, analytical
assumptions and whatever. That's it. But corporation part, for
instance, each company has a founder, right? So it's not about
memorizing the-- Japanese companies case,
they have a [INAUDIBLE],, which is kind of, you know,
company policy, vision. They actually read
that, you know? I mean, yeah, for
which company is that? Unilever, Unilever? They have those. Every company in
the US, they also have their serving for the
community, something like that. They have those kind of things. But, you know, if you're
just memorizing those, it's kind of pointless, right? I always suggest to people that,
you know, learn about founders of life, how is it lived? Your founder, I
mean, I am normally invited to many
start-up businesses. So if they are still alive, they
got 20 years old or something like that, you know? So some of the youngest
startups, you know, was a 14-- no, he was 17. And he invited me to give a talk
for his much senior workers. And then I told them,
you know, people like 40, look at this guy. He's 17, but you know,
look at how he lives and how he comes up
with those ideas. But it's not just about how
he come ups with the idea, but how he's tried
to use his, you know, skills to
serve the community. So this focus on how-- and you know, paying attention
to how he lived and his being, you know, that's really helpful. So in Japan,
companies, normally, I am invited for those old,
traditional big corporations too. So just think about
how the founder lived. Then it's not just about
those books you see the-- you know, those more
like first-person things, you know what I mean? For instance, a company-- normally have their
founder's biography written by an insider, but
from the outside point of view, but mostly focusing
on the human side. It's not about what he did
as a business wide, but more focus on the family
side, the private side. So that, I think, Masaki is
going to come later this year, later program. I think Masak Matsubara-- he is a friend of mine too. He studied about
Hakuin, the mas-- one of the masters
in the Edo period. But in Japan's case,
unfortunately, we don't really focus on his life. It's more about what
he did, his paintings, or something like that. But, also, my temple actually
connected to D.T. Suzuki. D.T. Suzuki often
came to my temple because between the 1930s
and the early '40s, Shinichi Hisamatsu, he was another major
Zen scholar around the time. He lived in my temple. D.T. Suzuki often
came to my temple. And people normally
think about, you know, they discussed about
Zen, the a of Zen, the West, you know, how they can bring
Zen to the West, right? Then, actually, I met
one scholar in the US. He studied in D.
T.'s private diary. And I found out the reason
why D. T. Suzuki often came to my temple was Beatrix,
his wife, was a horrible cook. [LAUGHTER] Because she just-- he-- her cooking was edamame
and boiled potato. So that's why D.
T., you know, then the Shinichi Hisamatsu, on
the other hand, he was single, but also, he actually
lived in my temple, but he actually ordered every
meal from a local restaurant. So that's why DT often
came to my temple. So that was not like any-- of course, probably they talk
about Zen and the philosophy, you know, all kinds
of things too, but the major reason why he
came, for the food, right? But that's kind of the
thing Japanese scholars, they don't do that. They just focus on
how great he was. He brought Zen to the West. He was a great scholar. I mean, but, you know,
I think that's was really interesting to-- I mean, really interesting
to me because that was, you know what? He is a human. You know, he didn't want
[INAUDIBLE],, you know? I mean, something
like that, you know? But, you know, I think those
kind of parts, you know, really help us to
understand, oh, you know, that he's still human. But you know, he actually
came with a great idea. I am not sure how he did it,
you know, how he lived with it, you know? So that's why, actually,
I normally tell people like that, you know, don't just
focus on those achievement. I mean, just you know,
more like the regular site. So yeah, that's yeah, how I
teach about the grammar side, I think, to the corporation. Yeah. Anyone? Yeah? AUDIENCE: Does your integration
of mindfulness into the Zen practice indicate that
you feel that the secular nature of the
mindfulness practices compensates for the
dissolution of formal religion? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Not
really because Zen-- well, Buddhism
originally didn't have any higher being or anything. AUDIENCE: Can you
say that again? TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Buddhism originally didn't have any
deities or anything. It's more secular, in
a way, at some level. I kind of consider my-- especially, I kind of consider
myself like a Buddhist atheist. Just, you know, and then any
philosophical tradition kind of defining how we define the
self or something like that. So I think that's a
mindfulness approach is really interesting
to me because, in a way, it's more like a finding
about your own self, focus on the self, right? The Buddhism case
actually, no self. So there is a contradiction. But in order to understand
no self, maybe finding that the self is important. So that's why I don't see
any contradiction in the way. AUDIENCE: But Taka, I
think [INAUDIBLE] there is an underlying observation
that there seems to have been a decline in organized
religion and that-- TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Oh, I'm sorry, sorry. AUDIENCE: And that one way to
make contemplative practice more interesting to the people
who don't follow a lot of you guys' religion is
through this kind of more logical, step-by-step,
scientifically-validated form of [INAUDIBLE]. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's-- yeah, I mean
that kind of shows that many, many satisfied mindfulness
instructors in Japan in these days. There's 35 corporations and
also some instructor never had-- they had one week of a
meditation experience or something like that. That's kind of a little
bit of scary part, you see? So that's why I
kind of, you know, openly criticize
people like that sometimes because I'm not
really personally criticizing, but actually
criticizing the trend. Then, well, I say it's
good that everybody said to have an
interest in meditation, but at the same time, just,
you know, it's not about, oh, you did this
one for relaxation. You did this one for
the productivity. Yeah, there's actually some
sort of damage going on, but sometimes people go-- of course, we need to have
two different approach, a wide approach and
deeper approach. And, actually, wide approach
are important because, you know, in a way, if we are doing
this deep approach only, we only approached-- we can approach only
a smaller population, then wider approaching
the way help to outreach to more population,
then which is a good thing. Then among them people said
they're having an interest in deep approach,
I think that's-- I think that's a good thing. So even like in Japan
right now, at this moment, you know, only the wide
approach is accepted. But, slowly, people start having
interest in deeper approach too. So I think that's a good thing. So in a way, we were
losing some members, but we're losing kind of, you
know, all 30 like states as a-- all 30 like well, like
[INAUDIBLE],, I mean, people don't see-- no, they don't see Zen
placed as on the [INAUDIBLE] of the meditation. Actually, there is a bunch
of mindfulness instructors right now. They are more considered
the authority in a way. But I think that's
part of passage. I think that is fine with me. Is that your answer? A quick question? Is that-- AUDIENCE: Kind of. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Kind of? Not really? AUDIENCE: I resonate with how
Hal interpreted my concern and question. I couldn't always follow
you, but I do appreciate your generous response. Thank you. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI: Thank you. AUDIENCE: That's good. Well, thank you very much. TAKAFUMI KAWAKAMI:
Well, thank you. [APPLAUSE]
