Brexit Debate: Ken Clarke on Brexit hangovers and amendments

thank you Ken for joining us for this week's podcast on another calm day in the tranquil world of Westminster we've just heard that the meaningful vote or something like it some tests of popularity of the withdrawal agreement is coming to tomorrow but I'd like to ask you first of all about what happened last night and the indicative vote some where you think that process is going your particular amendment which was pushing the customs union possibly a bit more it left it open but it stated the customs union that did quite well out of a bunch of horses that didn't really reach the finishing line but it did it did quite well what do you think is its future what do you think happens on Monday I think we're going to have to have a second set of votes on Monday perhaps the different methods of voting which I would advocate I have been urging transferable votes in order to get people to concentrate on something that command the widest possible consensus or majority we it was that the people who arranged yesterday which didn't include me Oliver let women and his colleagues anticipated that a lot of people yesterday would just plump for their first choice and vote against all the others to try to get their first choice through so everything winds up with the minority I voted for several of the things yesterday and I advocated to really just vote for as many things as you could live come out of your trenches they were tolerant though yeah we're I think and we got to compromise but not everybody did it yesterday but my nearly made it was only lost by eight votes I'm I think mine got near and that's because the one I take Ward was a bare minimum this was the very least I thought was acceptable which is to mandate the government to stay in the customs union a permanent customs union as part of the negotiations which I think the other EU governments will all readily agree to we nearly made it I also voted for the common market I mean my first preference will be to stay in the European Union and on Monday we've got have something which gets everybody to think well my first perfect choice in my opinion we may not get so what in the national interest am I prepared to accept there's a compromise I shall try mine again and fast I know the House of Commons is full of people planning and plotting all kinds of other motion which compensates as the Labour Party would call them in order to try to get something that will get through on Monday yes people are talking about maybe fusing a couple of the most popular ones so maybe you're one the other ones who didn't really do very well who are wanting to delete fuse they're right you don't want to feed just somebody else's it is better you don't want a fuse you're up for compromise but not on your Amendment for their maximum close relationship with the EU if we insist as this parliament will I'm leaving but I wish to keep there the think is most likely to get a majority which is the lowest common denominator the thing that has most supporters furious enemies I would like to see more than just a mandate on the customs union I would like a mandate to stay in the single market as well for example will vote for it probably you must realize that you've got to get the numbers together to form a kind of cross party coalition which is in the majority and can give the government authority in the negotiations and just so people understand what was going on here Theresa May is withdrawal agreement something you've voted for yes it's quite hard that doesn't tell you that much about the future relationship and and so you're trying to paint in lock-in our future relationship as it were as a guarantee you're not gonna do no blank check for the withdrawal of remember you want to know where it's heading afterwards that's what that you want men but if somebody's all except with more of the debates of the house government's probably bet there's no member sat through more of them which is what I based my judgment of where a majority might lie about and and the madman but mine was really aimed at getting the labour party and it's my pleasure and surprise the Labour Party whipped in favor of mine which gave me a lot of labour votes because that their argument against some Prime deal because they've nothing against the Prime Minister's deal it is that it was a blind brings it they won't never come back where we were going anything they're not gonna get a full negotiating mandate laid down that but permanent Customs Union mattered to them and permanent Customs Union therefore is at least that we can instruct the future government to be the basis for what it's aiming for in the negotiation that's the heart of my next question instructs the government that's constitutional crisis well that hasn't actually happened before and it we're looking at the Prime Minister who's at I'm not in not in a massive strategic direction like this central matters that no government ever pursued a policy of a massive strategic issue defying the opinion of the majority of the House of Commons but the point is can this government with a prime minister who seems to have signed her in political death warrant actually hold together to implement it what's the delivery mechanism okay you don't have to reform themselves no I mean there's I think that we're losing a sight of a lot of the basic principles of a parliamentary democracy and all kinds of things are being cited and often by ministers about the role of parliament and some which are absolute rubbish they aren't ancient traditions they've been invented in the last two years because they're in a mess governments can only pursue major policies which have the support an approval of a majority of the House of Commons governments of any complexion cannot pursue policies which have been opposed by a majority of the House of Commons so once the government is given an instruction by their Parliament a mandate on these negotiations it's up to the government decide whether or how they're going to accept so they're going to let's go at some of them we resign well that's what you mean by reforming yes and they'll get rid of the brakes it is and have a few remain as well that of course would be my preference but the council how it worked well you stopped working now you have a cabinet which is hopelessly divided which plainly doesn't agree on policy and who are now publicly airing their views conflicting policies and and and yesterday you know in in them this indicative vote process they weren't in WIC they were all loud tablet I think to abstain and anybody else could vote how their night what we need is a proper functioning government with a clear mandate in the support of government Parliament which would actually get the European Union's other member states to stop this bearing and realize they can have serious negotiations with a government that will be able to deliver the result with a majority in parliament you you've seen a loss of governments you've seen a lot of the House of Commons probably never a sadder moment than you're living through now but yeah but how does Teresa may sustain a government while throwing out all the bricks tears or allowing them to walk out because they don't like adopting a customs union how does that hold together that she will have to reach out to the Labor Party have reached some understanding with either the Labour Party as a whole or the substantial body of the Labor Party which is sympathetic to Assaf Briggs it actually sustained a majority on the subject and she'd have to form a government of people who broadly support that then deliver it and if we managed to put together a majority for anything on Monday all the various plotters which then actually included me in devising these systems that make sure that the majority that's going to last and then see us through negotiations which I think will take at least two or three years because we haven't touched on lots of other subjects yet and and finally give future generations the confidence of a sensible beneficial permanent relationship if we insist on leaving never just prosecuted look into well none of us have but this is what you saying there that you could imagine labor back benches maybe coming across and serving as ministers in a some kind of government of national unity or could it move more in formal structure which do you think is like I think that will be the ideal but I think that's highly unlikely I mean he would have happened in the past happened in 1930 well that's all but they're not in this Parliament this is let's make student politics look serious there this particular Parliament but i'm just sitting down some some some basic principles which I think these various factions I hope can be led by you know Teresa or somebody into accepting I mean Teresa unfortunately is a little unwavering I mean unify them fairly stubborn myself is she she's raised oven and she just has stuck to impossible red lines at times long after it's obvious that she can't deliver it but she has moved quite a bit her checkers arrangement included staying in the single market for goods now if only we'd stuck with that we'd never heard any problem about the Irish border we never half this would never happen so she has moved a long way on some things and I mean now she's thinking about how this you ensure her last month's are not those of a purely lame-duck prime minister I mean he just the political she's gotta find what political skills she has tried to put something together that will not only get us through the first stages of breaks it actually look credible for delivering something in the future all her enemies having got rid of her and now running around running their leadership elections but fortunately the European research group a little breakaway party who want to take over the whole party and not really competent and they're obviously campaigning against each other so you never know she could still pave the way for something more sensible but that kind of reaching across the floor that you're talking about she's not the ideal she's a leader for that is it conservative party she's it and this is not the survey this describes a lot of my friends Jesus a classic conservative lady from the Home Counties and she's a part in energy keeping the party together has been one of her foremost concerns at the rate at which he's lost ministers from the more moderate end of her party rather indicate she's not that successful but so far she's kept a Jacob Riis Morgan's it's a thought but she's gonna have to pick a bit broader than that I think an effect stop countering to the European research group that's Nancy changes when you're in your 60s are quite rare aren't they like probably I'd probably have to confess that would be the true as a bit but no she has shown flexibility I say yeah whether this deal she's going to try to get through again and we were a million miles away from the sort of things she was saying eighteen months ago she those disastrous speeches she gave for example in Lancaster House when pressed she still gets back those red lines but actually she's moved all over the place trying to compromise since and unfortunately she's now looks as though she's in her last weeks or months you know I mean she will want to settle this leave her stamp on it I hope she can be persuaded to put the proper majority in the house circles together the other vote that some people think did surprisingly well without labor backing was should we revoke when we're very close if we're very close to no deal you backed that yes if if we got very close to no deal could you imagine labor coming on board could you imagine that actually happening I hope so because they're one of the biggest majorities was against No Deal I mean simply crept up but by a majority of hundreds House of Commons rejected and you didnêt no deal at last a flash of common sense I mean a lot of the public support low deal validity because they're fed up with all this bickering you know why do we need a deal and Laura Schmitt and I can 10:7 jr. enough of all this just as leave and so on I mean all you have to do is count to ten and realize that tearing up every legal trading regulatory relationship you have with pretty well every other partner in the world and going back to the 1960s and starting the game with a blank sheet of paper would be a disaster if you don't believe me listen to the CBI the tea you see everybody else you'll know anything about how a modern country is run and there's a massive majority against that and it's not might with advocated a revoke I've always waited for every time it's come up now people say oh that's because you wanted to stay in the European Union but I've always said well of course I do but as we're still away we've wasted three years and we're back at square one why not stop it revoke why not get our act together and reach some consensus on what exactly it is leave means and what we want to put in place well if you want you can start again you can evoke article 50 and I still think that would be the sensible thing to do and fear of a no deal breaks it could conceivably lead to a majority in the House of Commons accepting their well I was just me and the Scottish Nationalist Party three weeks ago it's now six five to six million on a petition and a hugely increased number and members of the House of Commons are accepting the logic of that how'd it go down in the country do you think oh the usual Rather's are daft I mean the public debate from beginning to end in the great respect in the media and so on is just silly it MIT bad because nobody may be English better anyway follows the arguments to the Irish border and Irish settlement people have the most confused notion of what a customs union the single marking is and we all have you know simplistic stuff of traitors and betrayal and you know carrying out the Dunkirk experience on but they'll say the serious government you know involves taking tough and difficult decisions governments don't spend every day just an opinion poll out and saying our policy must be this I served in the Thatcher government we we never had a popular policy that we were never popular normally between elections we got rid deeply unpopular but we answered we acted on our judgement we took necessary decisions structural reform and then we answered to our masters and people for the results of what we've done when the general election came and Margaret always with Mars bound in the polls and then people would look at it and say well I suppose you know somebody had to do it and we got reelected nowadays they all have public relations men and tear around after tomorrow's headlines and the opinion polls and it's it's my favorite phrases is no way of running a whelk store and and and and government of Parliament now I've got to take a medium long-term view put in place what they believes be in the national interest but you also have to have a bit of a sense of what the reaction will be taking a point that you have and I did not B that cubed oh well there's no election until 2022 any confident of that no but it doesn't have to be yeah and it might not be you know I'd be no other way house risking a general election but the vast majority members of Parliament's on both sides of the house don't want a general election in order to the public what the general election very much a public never wanted a referendum we seem to get an awful lot of things we're not particularly mad keen on at the moment drink it could be that we end up in one couldn't it and and that could bring out with that result would you tell me I was Mike yesterday would we leave what sort of shape each party would be in I have no idea they presumably in the moment both parties are deeply divided into different factions so rather depends which faction got stronger which got weaker in the German election then a new poem will come back and then probably it was strikingly similar position to the present one Mike eight years to go might be at this one look rather better I made this one look like a tea party yeah what health do you think your see is in does it have a long life ahead of it does it deserve one both parties in such a serious crisis that the risk of not surviving that's because the nature of the political debate and structure in this country as in most of the other Western democracies is changing I'm a supporter of the two-party system two broad pre-packed coalition's covering a very wide range of views but agreeing to work together on a body of policies which they would deliver collectively and then public throwing one of them out when it's made a mess and doing the elds ago and so I like that system but it hasn't worked for some time and the social pressures the pace of change changing nature of society hasn't adjusted to it now the Conservative Party could survive because the consider if you don't mention the word Europe the Conservative Party is quite cohesive still begin either it is a broad-based center-right party behavior but it's always Europe it always goes on the table British party the Labour Party has a deep ideological divide both have the problem of having silly constitutions which allow unrepresented groups to seize control of associations and so on a grassroots level but nevertheless that sending my party let's talk about the Conservative Party it's always been held together by a certain mentor it's tribal loyalty and the desire to be in power if you're a conservative center-right one you won't join you want to further your political views but you want to have the chance of putting them into practice so conceivably when the Conservative Party wakes up from this nightmare it'll have a bit of a hangover but it might survive but I mean we've got Dame's in here just breaking it all up at various times already and we've got to start calming down from you mentioned associations do they look to you like they're pretty overly populated from your perspective by hardline bricks tears as always with the case actually though there the associations have always represented that the more traditional right-wing men were of the party but they have the sense to produce a parliamentary party of a broad spectrum well there you remember they didn't used to have the power they've been given now to elect the leader and all that when you were working with John major in John Major's government he could appeal over the heads of the bill cashes it was still him but some of them some of the phase John read words to the membership and could try and pull them into line isolate them Teresa may hasn't had that option there with the ERG hardliners something a lot of them are and she hasn't been able to do it that is true and somehow her style hasn't lent itself to enabling her to do it whether somebody else could do that and more political skills but it tells you where the bomb is going doesn't it I mean you're going to have a leadership contest before two years but the party you know is can be steered out of these things I mean I don't go in for reminiscing there's no gotta make sure sound no go for even more ah but you know the party used to be mad keen on hanging and the leadership of the party never was in favor of hanging it was all manageable no no it's all right and they had a bit of skill political skill to keep the party together and just remind the party of their instincts to bomb together stay in office keep the Socialists out and all where and do you think at the moment certain cabinet ministers with ambitions maybe Jeremy Hunt maybe Santa Joe Vitt doing the equivalent of saying all don't worry I'm Pro hanging but in brexit politics terms and are trying to appeal to those activists rather than maybe speak from their own consciences yes well that's nothing new in politics I mean as you say it sounds a bit like trimming to be fair to them in fact you're very campaigning really on but they would say they're trying to broaden their appeal they're preparing themselves do you think they'll exact further problem of keeping the party together and organizing the party sensibly again and I think they're gonna have to find some method of dealing with the entry is probably only doing what you used to accuse certain body deeds of doing which is just feeding the crocodile and actually that way doesn't work you can't just tack that way well they're gonna be careful not to drop into that as you quite rightly say and if you if you just stand feeding the crocodile with bombs the worrying moment comes when you run out of bombs and feeding the crocodile as I think being the tendency of recent conservative leaders and that's why we can't win elections anymore with a proper majority I mean we haven't really won the election since 1992 when John Major achieved quite a personal triumph in winning it John had more political skills than any of his successors of had to those activists were thinking maybe Boris Johnson's the answer to all this may be dumb Rob what's your well I say the Arg have formed a party within a party with a leader there in whip who isn't at this stage personally a candidate for the industry they've got several candidates and they kind of assume they're going to win I'm sure that will happen the Conservative Party hasn't lost all its old skills and what quite departmentally else is what you know as my friend Michael Hazeltine discovered he who wields sword never wears the crown and his she's going down at the moment with the stab wounds of the ERG all over her it may be none of them they may be membership still have the old instincts and they're not gonna vote for any of them if Boris Johnson did come in do you think he he could actually end up in a part of the political landscape and everyone would expect I quite like you too think he has any telling Boris is very interested in policies or the detail of policy and de he's not been totally consistent I say in his political career he's great at the photo opportunities outside Westminster the wider your generation outside Westminster will why did they spawn a revolution I mean Trump brings it Yellowjackets weird anarchists taking power in Italy all these other groups that get large blocks in Parliament to stop the mainstream politicians forming stable government's happening everyone what are they angry about they tend to be the older people often there are people who think the patient but the pace of change has been so rapid that in some cases it's left them behind there are angry and confused by it and disappointed that the biggest problem in most Western democracies certainly in the United States here at France saying is the people who used to be the blue-collar working-class who had good steady jobs in factories mines boundaries which they were proud of jobs for life and a structured run of splendid society in which you know I come from than reasoning we reach back to the labor movement back with Social Democrats back to the Democrats in America and he gave us stability the 2008 crash the pace of change automation hit that group very hard I mean if you're bright and young and in London you're doing terribly well out of the digital economy were in financial services ain't much good in Barnsley or Hartlepool and the older wrong angry disappointed white working-class vote protests in droves and this may sound dismissive and it's not meant to be I mean it's a group that kind of ma the politicians haven't yet found out I had a cope with that and that's why another reason why the Labour Party is a more threatened the conservative party because what was the bedrock of their movement now is some of the more dissatisfied and angry people in society and they rather more right-wing the left-wing in their angry reactions conservatives wind Mansfield lose Kensington you know and but now you're getting me to ramble off on what I think is the much bigger issue of which in Britain brexit is the symptom and so far the politicians have lost control of it quick last one now how does this story end whoa anybody who focus we're British politics is going to be in a fortnight's time is being reckless anybody tells you they're certain they know where we're going you know it's deceiving themselves do you think we'll still be in the European Union ten years from now I really don't know I think the reason I have going back to where we started the reason why I keep putting down these lowest common denominator attempts to stabilize things you know the idea that I mean I'm voting to leave the European Union staying in the customs union as a million miles from my iid or the reason for the country well I think you I think we are definitely doomed to leave eventually how we get out of that so I want to on the best terms now whether when the dust is settled and we all get over the political hangover from this a generation will emerged is there now that says what have we done all this for why don't we start playing our role as a leading European power yet why don't we start getting a good free trade relationship with a major partners and customers it could in ten years beyond the way back up Lois Lee I would love to believe so cantock thank you very much any of your time today thanks for talking to us you

Channel: Channel 4 News

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Id: fmFWn2mm4AM

Length: 29min 8sec (1748 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 29 2019