- Folks, that brings us right
into the next segment here on "Adventuring Academy." We're doing segments this
season, get with the program. And this is Contested Role. (intense metal music) And this is where we take
some of the hot button issues that are driving the discourse
here in the tabletop space. Not really, it's very low
stakes, it's totally fine. High stakes contested issues! We're getting into the controversy here in the heart of TTRPGs. And today we will be
engaging in one such contest, settling the debate once and for all. And I'm gonna turn it over. Whatever position my good
friend Matt chooses to take, you can rest assured
I'll take the opposite. - Look I, I-- It's always hard to start something when the argument is so lopsided. Being a person who's
played role-playing games for as long as I have and I've played different fascination... The word escapes me. Starting this script, I
told you, a great debater. Different facets of what
gaming has to offer, and time and time again, what
gets the players engaged, excited, and driven to
drive the story forward has been the gathering
of experience points. Now this is from the very
beginning of role playing games. The original D&D really
kind of established, although there were other
facets of where it began, really brought to the forefront the idea of the experience point, the idea of a mathematical
value that shows like physically you can look at it and be like, look, I earned this because I
did something in the world. Like most of us as people
wish we could do that. And a lot of us try. That's what you submit
when you go for a job, your sheet that tells you
all the experience you have. These are the experience
points you've gained. And the idea that you can in a game equate to a very
specific mathematical degree what you've accomplished, lets your players leave
the table and go home and feel themselves accomplished in a very definitive,
real, and logistical way. - Picture this. You've just ascended to the top of the ancient mountain that overlooks the frosty plains of your homeland. Long years have you spent traveling and your weeping companions
wait by your side as you finally are able
to return the soulstone of your long lost father, perished at sea, whose very essence rests within the gem you now hold within your
hand, you raise it aloft, and the ancient Eidolon that
has protected your lineage for time immemorial grasps it and says "You have done as you were destined to do, and the power of the Celestine
Heights is now yours." You wield the Frost of Ages and you say "Now the power is mine." And the Eidolon says "Not yet, there's some rust monsters at the bottom of the mountain, and if you chop their heads off, then shall the Frost of Ages be yours." I say no to this milestone leveling up. It is the climax of the story beat, the moment at which it makes
the most narrative sense. Otherwise, aren't we out here? What world do we wanna live in? A world where we say we
have defeated the sorcerer at the bottom of the dungeon,
and the fighter says, "You gotta give me 15 minutes, there's some in the
Otyughs in the back room and I almost have my extra attack". I don't think so. - What kind of world do we live in in which you have been
working your ass off at the job that you've taken
a lot of pride in. Right? And you've just spent
hours of overtime trying to finish this project that's
been your swan song, that your manager every day is like, "We're getting close to the deadline here. I can trust in you, right?" And you're like, "Yes,
I've got it, I've got it". And you complete it and you finish it. And Dave, who's been
on vacation for a week, comes in and goes like "You
finished the project, great. I'll sign the paper here." And your manager goes like "That's great, you both get promotions for the hard work you put into this." So envision, if you will,
these same adventurers, they're clutching this stone
up above and holding it aloft, the Eidolon touching their
hands, their eyes gazing with a glowing blue light
that spills into their soul. The energy burbling up from beneath, feeling the electricity themselves allowing them to now step into the cosmos with the great entities that
forged this world before them. And then Steve runs in real fast. "Guys, I'm so sorry. I got
real drunk a couple nights ago. I know I missed a couple... Oh, we're fucking doing this." And throws his hand in there
and now he's a god too. That seems real fair, real fair, all the work that you
put in this entire time when he was off getting
in with barmaids and whatever bar people he's been into it and then gets to go
ahead and become a God. - Look, I didn't want to
have to go here, okay, but I'm gonna go here. I'm gonna go here. You know and I know what
happens as the logical result of an experience point leveling
up system versus milestone. And I'll say it right now, and everyone else is too afraid to say it, but I'm gonna say it. In the logistics of the world, which we've been talking
a lot about logistics on this episode. You know and I know that
if you are not careful, a group of bozos will become demigods in an amount of campaign
time less than three weeks. "Oh no", the evil emperor says, "A group of people met
in a tavern last month "and now one of them is
the most powerful cleric "of the God of the sun in the world." How did this happen? "I don't know. "They found a cool dungeon that led "to a forest with a little
bit too many monsters, "and now they are a match for
every one of my generals." And we all have been there, okay? It takes a week and a half to become one of the most formidable
mages on the planet. And you go meet some arch
sect of powerful wizards, "I have studied long and hard". Studied long and hard? Why? I got here in three weeks. - Yeah, and they put in the work. They were there every
day of those three weeks working hard in whatever
weird mind they were. And you know what, sometimes you work really hard
in life and it gets nowhere. But occasionally if the right
place at the right time, luck is when preparation
means opportunity. You prepare and the opportunity's there and you've got that item. And depending on the
edition you're playing, sometimes you break that item and you get a shit ton of experience points,
and you go up four levels. You know what? Sometimes in
life you have those epiphanies. Sometimes you're sitting there
having a rough time and a go and then something comes along
and somebody says something or an experience changes
you, and you're like, "I feel like I've truly
risen as an individual". Not just like a small
day that picked me up, but I am now far more
functional than I was but a week ago, that happens all the time at different points in your life. You could look back and
see moments in yours, in your adult life,
possibly even childhood. And how would you rob yourself of that? Because, well it has to meet the beat of the narrative that I've
set as the dungeon master. God forbid, or Gods forbid
that you be rewarded for the work and luck
that you stumbled upon. - So now I'm a tyrant.
So that's what it is? - You're not a tyrant. You're just not paying attention. - Folks, that's milestone
versus experience points. (intense metal music) I love it. Oh my God, that's so silly. - For the record, I love milestone. - And I love XP. They're both great. That's so much fun.
