-Our next guest is a "New York
Times" best-selling author and research professor who has a brand-new
weekly podcast on Spotify called "Dare to Lead." Here is Brene Brown. Yeah, Brene.
It's so nice to see you. Thank you so much
for coming back... -Thank you.
-...to the show. I appreciate this. I want
to talk about this new podcast. It's about leadership,
called "Dare to Lead." I don't know. I just feel like
it's a good message for anyone, because one of your messages
in your book that I read earlier is that every one of us
is a leader in some way. It's not just
for people in charge. Like, everyone -- Can you expand on that? -Yeah. I mean, I think
when we think "leader," we think, like, pinstripes
and shoulder pads and a "C" suite office, and the truth is,
I've been in those offices and couldn't find a leader
to save my life. And I've been around
everyday people that would never identify
as a leader and been surrounded by them. So I define a leader as any person who holds
themselves accountable for finding the potential
in people and processes and has the courage, the guts
to develop that potential. And that's all of us.
I mean, we're just -- I recently asked Jon Meacham,
I said, "What would you say to people who don't think
they're leaders?" And he said, "Then you don't
understand democracy. We all have to lead."
-Wow. -And so I just -- I loved that. -Yeah.
-I think we're all leaders. -You've interviewed all these
people and tried to find -- and you've studied leaders,
and you try to find patterns. What are a few patterns
that you always see showing up in good leaders? -Yeah.
This was the shock for me. In fact, this is my 23rd year
as a researcher, and this is a 10-year study. And it was the first study
I'd ever done where the answers across
all of the research participants was the same. So, what we asked
was really straightforward. From special forces military
to creatives to all over the world, NGOs,
we asked, "What's the future
of leadership? Who's going to be leading
in 5 years, 10 years, and who's going to be gone?" And the answer was,
"We need braver leaders." And so when we drilled into,
what does that mean? I mean, I love the word "brave."
I love the word "courage," but they're gauzy. Like, what does that mean?
-Yeah. -It came down
to four skill sets -- the ability to rumble
with vulnerability. You know, that means when things
get uncertain and hard, we don't tap out. We don't tap out
of hard conversations. We don't tap out of feedback,
giving it or receiving it. -Mm-hmm.
-Second thing is that we really learn
how to live into our values. I mean, the most daring leaders
we've talked to are very clear not only
about what their values are, but also what the behaviors are
that support those values. Like, there are a lot
of big, fun leadership words like "integrity." But, like, if I walk
into another organization and see an integrity, like,
poster with an eagle, like, what does that -- You know, it's like, "Caw!" What does that mean?
-I don't know what it means. You were on Skymall,
and you were bored, and you go it's only 10 bucks.
-[ Laughs ] Skymall. No, Skymall. And you don't know
what it means. So these leaders
have operationalized it into behaviors that they
hold themselves accountable for. The third thing is
building trust, talking explicitly about trust, 'cause no trust,
no teams, no good work. And the last one is huge.
And I learned this from working with a lot
of professional sports teams. You've got to know how to reset after failure, disappointment,
and setbacks. You got to learn how to
get back up when you fall, 'cause that's part
of being brave. -Today is Veterans Day, and I know you've worked
with a lot of military leaders. You do a lot of great stuff
for the military. What have you learned
from military specifically? -You know, it's really -- You know, when you're a person
who teaches vulnerability, going in to work with
special forces or, you know,
Air Force fighter pilots, you're like, "Oh, man, this is
going to be a hard sell." But what's interesting
is they probably taught me more about the importance
of being in uncertainty. I think it's like, when you got
to be all blustery at work, it's harder --
-It's not going to work. -Yeah. When your life's
on the line, you get the importance
of emotion vulnerability. -You know, you end every episode
on your podcast asking your guests to name five songs
that they can't live without, which I think is tough. And you ask what that playlist
says about them, and I love it. I think it's a great,
great question. So I thought maybe I'd turn
the tables if you're up for it and ask you. -Okay. Well,
I thought about this, and these are not songs
that I just love. These are songs
that I would be sad if I couldn't find them
when I needed them. -Wow. -Yeah. And so
they're real for me. So, "If I Needed You,"
Townes Van Zandt. "Amazing Grace," Willie Nelson. "Before the Last Teardrop
Falls," Freddy Fender. -What? [ Laughs ] -Yes, for sure. -I love Freddy Fender.
-Yeah. Bonnie Raitt and John Prine
singing "Angel from Montgomery." And Carol Woods and Timothy
Mitchum's cover of "Let It Be." I have to have those songs. -Wow.
-When the going get's tough, those songs get going. -I really appreciate
you being back on the show. Thank you so much. -Thank you.
-Please be well. Brene Brown. New episodes
of "Dare to Lead" -- "Dare to Lead" are released
every Monday on Spotify.
