Let's talk about Let's talk about third person limited over on this board here. Third person limited. Third person limited, you are in one person's head in a given scene, and you do not show things that they cannot see. You have to be careful of viewpoint errors. Because they will knock you out. They'll knock the reader out of the narrative, which means that if I'm sitting here getting a drink, and someone enters behind me, In third limited you do not say, "John entered behind him." You say, "The door opened, and he turned to see who had entered." It's a fairly big distinction. In first person you say, "John came in." Because you're writing past, they know who it was. Though usually I would suggest just go ahead and say the door opens because this is an auditory clue It brings you more immersively into the scene and doesn't take any more words, really. Careful of errors. Third person though, what it can really do, is it can do a large cast better. Because you're being constantly reminded of the character's viewpoint and their name as you're writing whose viewpoint you're in. It can really help you pull into a scene, sometimes it's better for a scene and setting of the immediate nature. So while you can't cheat on your infodumps, I've found that third person, that first person . . . Imagine one of those gumshoe novels. The hardboiled detective novels where they give you this awesome description of how it's raining at night. Have any of you guys read these? You know what these are like. "The rain came outside, it was so melancholy, it felt like my soul was weeping" [Students laugh] You know what I'm saying! This gumshoe stuff, well you've got this great first person narrator, but each of those things are kinda pointing "ME ME ME ME ME ME!" Pay attention to me, as the character, as opposed to the actual scene. I found that you can do a little bit better job in third limited setting a scene. Large cast is good, you can give that epic scope. And this is the best one for hiding things from the reader Save perhaps the third omniscient with the kind of storyteller, who will say "He didn't know this, but" Or, "There was something behind the door." You'll find out eventually what it was but, "there was something horrible behind that door." You can do that in the present narrative but it just feels cheaper. In this you can not show a viewpoint that knows, and so you can hide things. It can work pretty well. What am I missing here? What other advantages are there? Who wants a green gummi bear? Come up with an answer and I'll give you a green one. Advantages. Why do you guys like third limited in the books that you've read it in? Alright, back there Student: You're not confined to one point of view, I suppose, so you feel more free. Brandon: Okay. You feel more free with viewpoints. One of the great things that you can do in third limited is basically impossible in most first persons, is the throwaway viewpoint. You see this one person for a couple of pages, and they're interesting and move the scene along, but then they die or something like that Or, Tom Clancy would do this sometimes and stuff, you get the one scene from some random person's viewpoint And that's a cool thing that third limited can do much better than first. What else? Student: I was gonna say, you can knock out and kill characters better. Brandon: Okay yeah, easier to off characters. Yeah? Student: Scott Westerfeld does this thing where each character dramatically changes the things he'll describe to you, even though it's not first person Brandon: Right Student: It kinda feels almost like first person, but he uses it in a more . . . Brandon: We'll talk about that. That's item number two on our list there. But yeah, good. Student: I think with third person, something that's happening, it's easier to show bias, maybe gray area in morals I'm thinking specifically with George R. R. Martin. Brandon: Okay Student: You don't necessarily, your viewpoint as a reader, your opinion of the story can shift back and forth. Brandon: Yeah, I think you can do that in first as well, but the thing about the third with the larger cast is you can show more shades of it. One thing about third--ooh, you got a red one--one thing about third is . . . oh I had it here, what was I going to say Ooh, that's another red one I'm gonna eat that [Students laugh] You can . . . oh man, this was a good one too. [The point, not the gummi bear. Maybe.] Okay, we'll let Jennifer talk. Student: I'll do one. You can do a distance and closeness at the same time. I'm thinking like, Matt and Nineve in Wheel of Time. Sort of the unreliable narrator about themselves Brandon: You can mix an unreliable in their own thoughts with a reliable, and so you can show inherent discord. Matt's a great example of this. What he says so conflicts with what he thinks, which conflicts with the actual narrative when the narrator is going That it's delightful because he, yeah, anyway! The thing I was gonna say is I feel like a third, personally for me when I'm reading it, I feel more like I can be that character and see through their eyes When it's "I", it's not me, it's someone talking to me. I feel like I'm more immersed in the story a lot of times, and this kinda goes back to that setting thing. I think third is more immersive for a story, wheras first is better at showing you a great character. Student: For me at least, in third person it's easier to forgive a character for being dumb and things like that Brandon: Okay yeah Showing a stupid character is very different. Student: I think it's easier to like a character in third person [inaudible] Brandon: Okay, alright, so. Woo! We'll do this one then move on. Student: Easier to show character flaws, you don't have to work as hard to get it in there. Brandon: Yeah, perhaps, I mean you can show some really great character flaws in first But they can be really jarring when you do them. It might be easier to be a little more subtle with them in a third. So anyway, picking which one of these is going to be pretty fundamental to your book. Most of you are probably already writing in one of these two. And I would suggest you continue on with it, but whatever you do, let's talk about that second thing that I had on my list. I'm gonna go back over to this one just to make it easier for the filmmaker. And this one is how you handle description. Meaning, how the character sees the world, we're gonna transition into description, but the second part of viewpoint. This isn't even number two here, this is the second half of viewpoint moving toward it. So, these are the basic fundamentals. What the editor is actually looking for, or the reader unconsciously, what they're looking for, is when they pick up that first page, that the character kinda jumps off the page at them by the way they see the world. Scott Westerfeld does a very good job of this, and you were talking about it What's gonna go on is you're gonna try and make this character come to life by the simple things they do. Okay? In first person, this is actually easier, because their voice can saturate everything. But I think though it's a little bit harder in third person, when it works in third person it can be extremely majestically beautiful And it can really be, like if you can master this, editors are going to love your stories. And that is letting each line of description, each thing that is known, come filtered through the lens of the character's eyes. 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