Book Talk – The One State Reality: What is Israel/Palestine?

um welcome my name is Peter Slinger I'm the interim director of the salt and Institute of Warren living studies um Salzman and seafood School national public America I want to welcome you to today's talk on this terrific book um one is real what is Israel Palestine but what state reality um we had explored fathers from the book uh Naomi Weinberger will be the moderator um but I think it goes about saying that personally I think this subject is timely just about any time in the last 100 years of decades but it's especially kindly now because of the recent political changes in Israel and the band yeah another Netanyahu Coalition which is definitely far more than the rice can they say that yeah then just about any in the past so I think you'll find this a very stimulating hopefully talk to voting maybe even provide under the discussion um are they say Naomi will be the moderator so I probably should say a few words about who Naomi is she's a Middle East expert in her own right uh she's anti-draft Professor here at Seawall she wrote a book a little while ago on series intervention at Lebanon the Civil War in 1975-76 I took the time to see it but still out there at the Sprint if you want to help it's available Oxford University press it's only 148 dollars at Amazon I have a copy of anybody wants to borrow it I need to promote this book for You Leon I think um Naomi teaches courses on Middle East here at the seat bus shelter the course on global governance it's a bigger Center for Executive Education uh previously here at CBC served as the Director of the UN studies program for several years she started Yale in Colgate she holds a ba from that Restless Street at Barnard and a PhD from here in Columbia go over in the mail thanks so very very much it's really a privilege for me to introduce four colleagues whom I have admired for many years they are here to answer questions from me and from you our audience about their important new book the one state reality one is Israel Palestine each of these individuals is both an editor and a contributing author to this volume they are all prominent political scientists or leading Scholars of the Middle East with International reputations I will very gratefully individually introduce each of our guests as one critical question to each of them based on the individual chapter they contributed into the book and we will try as a panel to limit that preliminary discussion to under an hour to give the rest of you lots of time to ask your questions uh if you haven't yet found your copy of the book you may start by reading a synopsis of the central argument in the forthcoming May June 2023 issue of Foreign Affairs Israel's one state reality it's time to give up on the two-state solution so first let me introduce uh Professor Mara Lynch uh he is professor of political science and international Affairs at George Washington University is a research interests include American foreign policy media and public opinion public diplomacy and islamist movements my favorite publication which I did for all of them because they've all got too many Publications so I didn't speak down a favoring publication relevant to our conversation is the new era Moore's uprisings in Anarchy in the Middle East in this book his chapter is the conclusion uh recognizing a one-state reality and my question uh to Professor Lynch is uh do you describe at least three essential characteristics of the one state reality in Israel Palestine the First Dimension is territory as you say all the territories of people are functionally part of the same state second is institutional Arrangements the PA Palestinian Authority is better understood as an agent of the Israeli State than as an agent of the Palestinian people and third is inequality of Rights entailing the permanent subordination of One National Wood by another was legally enforced radiations of belonging so my question is how entrenched is this one-state reality and which of these characteristics these three are others will determine whether the one state reality endures saved for the next decade well thank you Damian this is um it's real pleasure to be here at Columbia again and um I'm a little bit off because since I wrote the conclusion I always go blast and uh and so um now I have to like do talk about all the other stuff that uh they usually just talked about that's fun um so the answer to your question is that you know I think there was a moment in the early 1990s the Oslo years where you could actually see something that looked like a challenge to the institutional Arrangements of more or less permanent uh Domination by the Israeli regime over um all the territories in uh mandatory Palestine and you could at least see the vision the prospect of something different emerging I'm not sure that would actually have been two equal sovereign states but it would have been something different from what we're thriving in this book um other than that brief moment uh there hasn't been a time since 1967 where you would not had a full Israeli control over all the territory um including entry into the borders control over movement within the territory um or basically any uh any alternative to full Israeli territorial control um the institutional Arrangements Palestinian Authority was a change certainly emerging after 1993-1994 and there was again I mean I spent years in the 1990s where I was doing work in Ramona and in Jerusalem and you know working with the Palestinian Parliament and allegedly the legislative Council and you could imagine at that point the PA had been becoming you know he was government in waiting and becoming a real government um but I think since the 2000s since the second entifada it's hard to describe it as much more than a security contractor for the Israeli government and Dana Greenwald has a wonderful chapter in our book uh describing this reality in in considerable detail and then finally the ambality rights is Manifest in obvious to see it's simply your ability to access the rights and religions of citizenship um or for that matter basic human rights to to life and dignity completely depend on your ethnicity and your placed within the um the Israeli um you know hierarchy of of Rights and identities and so if you are a Palestinian citizen of Israel that gives you one set of rights which are inferior to those uh non-jewish citizens of Israel if you are Palestinian non-citizen of Israel you have far fewer rights if any and if you live in Gaza you have basically no rice at all other than to be kind of surrounded starved bombarded and um basically deprived walls human rights whatsoever and so you ask you know is is this entrenched I think with something that's been happening but I'm terrible at that I'm really sorry but I I believe that we're talking about something in the ballpark at 55 years first um it's 56 years now 55 and a half yeah 55 and a half that you know I I was before I was born um and so considering the population of Palestine is something like 65 under the age of 30. um I'd say this pretty darn entrenched um and it's hard to imagine for me or for them any other reality existing will it end in the next 10 years um you know um I do not think so um will this be a solution in the sense that it will put an end to the conflict also no um I think that there's a reason why many of us are extraordinarily pessimistic about the prospects on any kind of peaceful or just uh Arrangements emerging from the uh the current to moving the current situation um and so I think that the purpose of the Foreign Affairs article at least from my perspective was to say not that we are for the one stage solution and against a two-state solution I would rather to say that there is no two-stage Solution on offer we have a one-state reality which is not going to solve anything better answers the question okay sure well you're going to get more so I'm not too worried okay next up is uh Professor Nathan Brown who is professor of political science and international Affairs and George Washington University is your search interests include democracy and authoritarianism comparative constitutionalism law and politics and legal reform in the modern Middle East my favorite one of his books is Palestinian politics after the Oslo Accords resuming Arab Palestine in this book uh his chapter with Iman obana is the thorough insinuation of the one-state reality into Palestinian political life and my question for Professor Brown is you describe the decline in recent years of a coherent Palestinian national movement while the prospect for independent Palestinian statehood has diminished he also highlight disparities in the experiences of Palestinians depending whether they live in Gaza the West Bank Jerusalem within Israel's pre-67 Borders or in the diaspora so is it accurate really to assert that Palestinians in israel-palestine really experience a one-state reality even though they are all in one way or another subject to Israeli domination um thank you very much um it's a big question and in my word in academic I would just give you a simple entry yes it is accurate but I'm going to give you a very complicated yes answer um it is accurate to describe I think a one-state reality despite the disparity in Palestinian experiences and it's actually what my the first word my Essence will be it's that it led me to I mean we all travel different routes to this idea of a 150 battle which we all agree on for me personally um well talk about what Martin was talking about you know in the 1990s I thought yes there's a panelists doing political entity two-state solution that seems to be kind of emerging even after them thousand I was thinking okay well you know you put together this kind of Israeli Coalition at this kind of negotiating process it was 2007 the Palestinians split that led me to conclude wait a second Palestinian politics is just broken there's all kinds of other represents why a two-state solution is not happening uh but this is final for me I mean I I'm not going to say final for all time but this process has come through being full stalled you know other people came to the conclusion for different reasons so it's actually that split um that led me to think okay there's no there's no possible process at this point that's going to lead us there or lead them there um so that's kind of would let it led me to it personally but it's actually that Division and I'm going I'm drawing some things to Mark said that really do I think communicate the idea of a one-state reality and reason why we talk about it as a one-state reality rather than a one-state solution because you know if your Palestinian living in any of the territory of the mandatory Palestine and you can ask a question okay Audi One taxes did you pay out and get your point A to point B whatever work can you use um the answer is back so we always under the movement of Israeli control so there is one state that oversees this entire uh the and as Mark said this is um uh 55 and three quarters years old said um and then and and that is something that adds in some ways being be an institutionalized bar far deeper you know if you take a look at a Palestinian agenda because we should buy an housing in Authority in two languages for Arabic and Hebrew why Hebrew because it's going to be Israeli soldiers were going to be some of the consumers of these documents want to know what's your name um where were you born and and so on so there were there it's it's living under the Palestinians are are living under um under this this thing basically the The Throne stay for almost all important matters um or for any matters that it means about is is the Israeli State good or bad um solution a lot of solution that is the reality I think it's something very very interesting um and it's and it's kind of what we try to get at in the chapter man and I I try to get at in in our chapter so for an awfully long time Palestinian national movement was about unchieving Palestinians teachers in some way shape of shape or Welsh and there were these structures that emerged at the Palestinian Liberation Organization just to be the sole legitimate representative of Palestinian people uh there's actually even a Palestinian declaration back in 1948 of death of Gaza the people of God but that was still skills it was about there was a Palestinian National Council that we played it at that time and Palestinian authorities Mark described it whatever it would if you will is read the oscilla Accords it goes through great paint to avoid describing this as a state or a state in the making but the fact is those people who are involved in running it and that's your favorite book I'll remember that you said that um I liked it too but I think the history book now because it was the people who were involved with that saw them in building a Palestinian State nobody believes that anymore not even the people who are running it believe that anymore this is not Palestinian state in the making uh this is our something that pays salaries it keeps basic order said that that is I mean you know kind of what else are we going to do um um um uh uh uh that's what it is right now so the kind of the the what you're talking about is the strong standard Palestinian national identity um and that I think continues uh but one that has no institutional expression um and and so you're you're getting at the various ways in which Palestinian and batch Community is is fragmented uh is is is is just a real reality in Palestinian political life in most of the groups we're talking about in this chapter are asking themselves not how do we build a Palestinian State tomorrow but how do you how do we deal with Isabel today how do we how do we manage it um I haven't managed to blockchain afford to Gaza how do we manage getting in and out of where various places in in the West Bank how do we hold on to our Jerusalem idea access to the German Health Care system and and and and and uh so forth and so on and each but each one of these populations it's an internally fragmented by time um you know you have Palestinian citizens of Israel or an Abner born disjoint list that's kind of come art um and and a lot of them have caught hard about the issue about how how to deal with Israel so Israel just a single the central reality in in Palestinian political life if there is any hold for change it's going to be how it is that I think the Palestinian national movement uh rebuilds itself and there I don't I I I see a lot of kind of activity and talking um but actually talking that I probably have to be younger and all the way to all over the line that's on social media because it doesn't it doesn't matter actually being kind of uh sustained organization um so far but that's kind of the um the uh if there's any Vitality in in Palestinian national movement it it uh it's it it is in in that area we've got experts in being public leadership who does a lot of all only one of the experts here who wrote In general public opinion right here welcome to the Polish island on this uh in in my mind if you want to understand kind of where there's there's there's any hope of diamondism it would be with sort of um younger generation talking in ways essentially that acceptable understand that the categories of institutions of the older Generations sacrifice so much to build at least in Palestinian political life are probably going to have any superseded by something about what that looks like I don't okay thank you very much that's a lot to think about so now I'm going to introduce Professor shibleami uh the Anwar sadata Professor for peace and development at the University of Maryland his research interests include quantitative study of public attitudes American foreign policy and conflict resolution including negotiations and mediation my favorite publication is the stakes America in the Middle East in this book his chapter is Arabic American dimensions of the israel-palestine issue from which by SQ uh Dr chauvini you argue that the Abraham Accords quote were unprecedented in the way in which they bypassed the Palestinians yet you show that Aram public opinion in the gulf and throughout the region is very sympathetic to Palestinian grievances so I wonder is it possible that activated Arab publics could oblige their governments to abandon the anima courts well thank you very much first of all thank you for uh inviting me here this is a place where I was a visiting professor as well my office was here so it's really not in the same building it's nice to be back here Naomi and I we're not going to mention how many years we actually were on a track two effort that preceded also that actually later all a little bit in uh helping drink about also uh that was taking place in from 1992 to 1994 through the American Academy of Arts as long as we were on the American side of uh try to with Israelis and Palestinians that it took us to uh Israel and the Palestinian leader should be even in Tunis at the time and uh also we've met them in various places where some of the idea breakthrough came through as well during that period and one of the reasons why I'm saying that is obviously because the Army's here I'm happy to see her and I may not have seen her since um uh but um but it's also because just like my other colleagues uh we really overall supporters of the two-state solution at that time uh so we don't we're not coming at it from uh from you know some rejection honor it was to the extent that it was possible we pushed it through and and those of us who advice government worked on it be a long way than that uh every time we say it's kind of two more years it's not going to be possible anymore I think the first time we probably said that was 2000 and so now it's what you know quarter Century later we say two more years and and and then it wouldn't be possible anymore so we're coming at it from from that perspective um and I you know one of the things about connected directly to the good question well that you asked which is about the Abraham records um I would say that um it isn't truly there's a bigger question in a way because it's not just about public opinion and I think there's no question that public opinion everybody has discovered uh particularly in in the past couple of years is still focused on the issue all started even though it's not a problem obviously people in in that world are not focus on if they have their own issues but it still resonates it's still we've seen symbols of that obviously exhibited in places like the world's club or or elsewhere but it doesn't mean that immediately Arab governments are going to feel the heat particularly you know with their regression and authoritarianism and some countries are a little bit more insulated um from that including laying out their own Emirates which will lead uh in the Abraham Accords and then Abraham orange were by and large the initiative of the UAE others were really a little bit of different story because Morocco already had its amicable relationship with the Israel was a sort of a consolation prize for the fact that Saudi Arabia was a big word to make its peace with but the initiation came from the UAM had his own strategic interesting in fact all of the uh all of the agreements uh that were signed historically between Israel and Arab state were all about the U.S not about the not about Israel uh that is the every Arab leader that signed an agreement with Israel signed it to gain something from the U.S did not sign it to get something which you want and that might surprise you even about the Cantu and of course the first ones we did ultimately get a sign I bet but I wrote a book on it and showing that Umar actually came to and David prepared to not make a deal with Israel as long as he would gain a strategic Coalition with the us at the expense of Israel and that was actually what Jimmy Carter used in the negotiation every single government and made a deal made it as a result of Interest related to the U.S when the UAE saved the Trump Administration diplomacy in the Middle East I say save them because the deal essentially completely collapsed and they had nothing to show for and had it not been for the UAE saying all right I'd want to make a deal with Israel they would have nothing to show for it and obviously the others would never have followed without the UAE so it was a UAE decision that was made and why did the UAE did it because the une is centered on this relationship of the U.S they saved the Trump Administration in fact I can tell you I'm I was finishing up another book with several colleagues on the Trump Administration Bill Obama administration and the Biden Administration and we interviewed a lot of people uh an official a high level official group drop administration saved the UAE saved us he actually used the term saved us uh and and and in both three examples in which we saved uh the effort uh uh for for the Trump Administration big favor for Trump uh because if he had won the re-election they would have been happy but they also understood and this was clear I wrote about it at the time when they actually made the needle they are basically entered the deal also thinking that Biden light went but the Democratic establishment would applaud them for it would forgive them for their relationship with Trump because they made a deal with Israel because Aaron rulers had made a decision that the shortest path to Washington whether it's the Democratic Washington or or republican Washington goes through Tel Aviv and that's the kind of thing that happened why am I saying this I'm saying this because we underestimate the extent to which we the United States of America have enabled this unjust one state reality that we're describing because without our efforts included taking the incentive away from Israel on and making deals in Arab states decoupling peace between Israel and the Arab states were all ending the Israeli occupation is a reward for doing nothing is a reward for continuing the status quo uh because in the old days when you look at the Arab peace initiative back in in 2002 the idea was it's you will offer peace as long as you end the occupation and now it's it's with no end to the occupation and so that kind of policy has enabled uh an occupation and played into the hands of the right wing uh now as you know in in the book as well as in uh in foreign affairs article we basically go into detail about the sort of things that we have daughter that have been abled the status quo instead of shooting it uh and that now the promise of it you say a solution as we call us as being opposed to we say we all come from that uh kind of being supported the two-step solution it is now that it's nothing not on the horizon for any foreseeable future it is being used at a smoke stream to detract from the reality that is on the ground uh that we are enabling uh by saying let's switch to the two states accepting the the unjust reality on the ground as it exists and in the process it's not only that we're taking away the incentives or Israel to uh make gestures to end the occupation to move toward ending occupation but we're also shielding Israel when it violates the international law on things like the settlement building which had been obviously one reason why it has become impossible to foresee a two-state solution to any any you know foreseeable future and instead of uh uh you know allowing the UN to to to to uh put terms of consequences for violations of international law where actually obviously uh um uh you know kind of reinforcing it so uh bottom line is that yes that I think that uh it is the first it's not that it's the first time that this issue is decoupled shown that the Palestinian issue that is that peace physically is on that and that but it's the first time when the U.S really worked hard to make sure that is the case and that is something that has been has had negative consequence and I would say I played into the halves of the far right of Israel where we said you know you can advocated needed to okay uh to be continued uh in our q a so now uh finally uh Dr Michael Barnett uh University professor of international Affairs and political science at George Washington University his research introduced their Global governance humanitarianism and International Ethics my favorite publication Israel and comparative politics challenging the conventional wisdom and ALDI but goodie um okay and chapter in the current book well with Lara Friedman American jewelry and the one state reality and so there you explain that quote the one state reality poses a profound challenge to Jewish Americans relationship to Israel because Progressive Jews are experiencing quote a clash of values and Divergence of interests with Israeli policies so my question is what impact will American public opinion have on the Biden administration's official commitment to a two-state solution for Israel Palestine thank you and thanks uh for mediating this uh Naomi and it's great to be here at Columbia um I just say one more two things first of all the book and project and then a little background to the question and I will answer your question uh once you tell me I'm 60 seconds full okay so um I know I know um I can work uh so you know one of the reasons why we decided to engage in this kind of collaborative project and this began three maybe four years ago uh was because of our own Collective frustration of the Mantra at a two-state solution which we thought was dead anyway and it became increasingly clear at least to me that you know this Tuesday solution was a crutch it was kind of the Opium for the Diplomatic class as long as they could continue to you know screen two-state solution it was like hear no evil see no evil speed no evil and it was rather I I would say it was almost like more extent about history versus tragedy than in sports and that's kind of how I saw this kiter um repetitive uh nature of flag wave you know the two-stage solution and all of us wanted to say okay let's assume that's over and we have a one state reality let's begin there now what and this is sort of the beginning point for the volume and a lot of the chapters that are organized around not relitigating the two-state solution and what happened uh because God knows that will be relitigated for the next half century um but rather very much about what what does this mean and so I have a chapter in there uh with Laura Freeman uh on Jewish Americans so let me just say a few things uh by way of historical background the first is that Jewish Americans have always been slightly ambivalent about their relationship to Zionism and to Israel uh there is this mythology that Jewish Americans fell in love at first sight it's not true uh in the pre-1948 period there was a lot of ambivalence especially around the time of the League of Nations precisely because Jewish Americans were trying to integrate into the United States believe that liberalism was their best hope because liberalism has always provided something of a normative political cut and legal cover for Jews who are a minority in a Christian Society Christian world and it took them a long time and and they were in opposition to the idea of Israel because in our our carbon Aguilar it's an it was going to be an Econo National project and so the very idea that saying that Jews should be superior and get special treatment these would be the other inhabitants who've been there a lot longer than them struck them as hypocritical and they worried it would actually delegitimate their own attempt to become safe and secure in a more and hopefully and more pluralistic United States so they were very reluctant to actually get on board and so when the state of Israel was founded in 48 they were there I mean they were flat parades and and celebrations but from 48 to 67 they really were supportive but they couldn't really be truly bothered 67 is the turning point you know as we all know for anybody who knows anything about Jewish American attitudes towards Israel that's the Turning Point that's when Jewish Americans all of a sudden got Israel Bieber and began in a process of idolatry in which their identities now for the first night become wrapped up with Israel it becomes difficult then to almost Divine your jewishness in terms other than Israel and you were judged whether you're good or bad depending on where you stood on Israel and so every you know the community became not just strongly pro-israel but uh emphatically so um this lasted for several decades but you could begin to see for a variety of polling and then uh from the question of the so-called distancing of Jewish Americans from Israel which began in the 1990s was the sense that it was beginning to weather a bit or it wasn't as secure as it used to be and so what they would be able to show in their self look the spirit was that Jewish Americans were beginning to have dumb doubts some really over policies uh they didn't like the settlements they didn't like you know Wars of choice uh like Lebanon there were some security concerns about the direction of Israel but they were largely they could say they're supportive of Israel this begins to really begin to crumble where Nach and Yahoo and the Bromance between and precisely because as you probably know Jewish Americans would asked about their values come down hard on political liberalism of various sorts and it always trying to devote left or Democratic uh any line up that way traditionally except for Israel on Israel they light up more conservative banned big than many Democrats do but beginning in uh in this Century what you began to see was a real I think reconsideration people began to talk about Israel relationship to Jewish Americans in news ways really began to sort of I think made this uh Jeanette to the point that by the time of Notting Yahoo's governments uh the kinds of things that Jewish Jewish Americans care about in terms of Israel and values is about the role of religion in the state which they realize that they were always being treated as second-class Jews uh by the by you know the Orthodox Community which controls many of the religious institutions they became they became worried about liberalism in Israel and democracy was always secure with it for those in 67 territory but was was non-existent for those outside and in many ways what you saw was a debate over the demographic Time Bomb you know that was supposed to be which was another way of saying at some point Israel is going to actually have to deal with the fact that the majority of the population the residents are Jews and what's that going to mean and we're there this is where we're at and the consequence then is that as the apartheid concept becomes more and more acceptable it is in Israel in many ways and among Jewish Americans that's going to lead to a real Clash you can't have the values that Jewish Americans want to explain their own and yet support a state that systematically um engages in in policies and practices that are designed to institutionalize Jewish Supremacy that's hard so they're going to have to make some very difficult and really gut-wrenching choices um what does this mean I don't think it means any you know and this is a really interesting point that we've all speculated about uh I don't think it's going to mean any major change for U.S policy makers uh for a variety of reasons including the fact that they rather go on autopilot than actually begin to recognize that their policies are dysfunctional and that they need to actually shut them in relationship to the new reality Jewish Americans I can sit will still be split uh the the epicenter of power of organized jewelry will remain in the hands allow those major Jewish organizations and so which tend to be more conservative I don't think Apex going anywhere uh I think what you'll see is what you've seen over the last several weeks where Jewish organizations are wondering how it is they're supposed to achieve their values and yet deal with Israel and especially in Israel than in us you know you know racist ministers so I think that's that's the real issue that's going to come up and I think it's a major challenge uh and I have no idea where Jewish Americans are going to go I think it's going to be a deeply emotional and personal set of decisions okay so we have covered a lot of grams and now we're going to do two rounds of questions and so what we'll do is we will collect questions from those of you who are here and some of you who are not and we will ask our panel to jot down your questions and then we will go first in reverse order and then in a different order um but we'll do those two rounds to try to make sure everybody who has a question has a chance to ask now please keep your questions brief please make sure it's a question um so let's start with calling on a few people uh here and then we'll yes around Wednesday reality allowed foreign so on the Israeli side to what extent do you think the current turmoil in Israeli salt is a reaction to kind of an acceptance of a one-state reality so thinking about the old web you know Israel can be from Jordan to the Sea Jewish Democratic too um in if Jordan to the sea is off the table because that's definitely one of the two then the debate is between Jewish and Democratic and so do you see the current turmoil as a reaction to this and then the other question is on the Palestinian side and it relates a little bit to something that that you said um Mr Brown um but I'm thinking about what removing the possibility of an independent Palestine does to to Palestinian hopes and aspirations and how how much is the Hope for an eventual independent state crucial to organizing um so you spoke to that a little bit but I'd like to hear the penalty sure that thanks okay anyone else here in front of us with the question yes sure if I could um how much significance would you attach to changes in demography over the last three four decades particularly among the ultra Orthodox communion yeah okay yes well right now of the through Wednesday reality and child the United States benefits okay maybe one wants to Grumble those presents one word and she inclined or shall we take a few mirrors there are no questions but okay well we have an influence okay we're gonna go into reverse order so he who was the last movie first now oh okay um yeah I'll just pick a few um you know on the international side which I think is a really important to mention that oftentimes yeah it's over what uh at least so far in a lot of our conversations around the book and your article and you know no one's really going to care what the international court of justice says or does in its own in its own particulars uh but I think there is a kind of gathering storm at the international level around the politics of what this means and delete and you mentioned the legalities and including the you know ongoing debates about whether or not it's apartheid um and then you know how this fits into our broader claims of international Justice and how that translates to you know the question of nation states I think one of the ways in which um in which it will translate or already is beginning to translate is if you don't have The Wider self-determination anymore then what rights do you have that's going to become the Big Challenge for Israel and for the International Community what rights do the Palestinians have what client you know what are the international protections that will be provided for Palestinians that now by themselves systematically excluded occupy harassed and targeted I mean these are the big questions I think that are going to be going for because I don't see you know as a practical matter the one state reality going anywhere I think this is going to be what kind of state it is and what kind of protections will be afforded to Palestinians and that side just a institution question that's going to be multilateral and and bilateral so I think whites is going to be increasingly important on the second on on on Paige's question about pick two I think the israelisable repairs uh that most Israelis will say either for security over democracy and therefore I'm ready to give a lot on Democracy if I can maintain my security and you know and that's not I like what most people around the world say when forced to choose between the two and I think also that's the same question that Jewish Americans are going to be asking themselves what do I care more about my Jewish identity in a particular way or Israeli security so I think this is going to be one of the big question marks uh but I think you know and even looking at a kind of you know weekly protest they have they have explicitly explicitly told the Palestinians to go home why because they're a distractions they're told once again yeah we care about Palestinians but don't distract us from what really matters and the more you get involved the more difficult it will be for us to actually mobilize this grasswell of people to try to preserve what little democracy we still have Within 1967. so I'll just end there but I I you know regard and I think the point needs to be emphasized that what's taking place in terms of the protests really aren't are are trying to distance themselves from Palestinian questions yeah um so I mean also just uh say a few things about the the international organizations and international law uh partly because um it's it should be clear that in our work in both in in the book and in the article part of theirs uh we differentiate between State and sovereignty it's very important uh conceptually to to to to Dr groups with that because the state is about control sovereignty is about outside recognition of that control yeah so when we say it is one state reality we're saying it's about that we're in describing the control we're describing the reality as it exists not that exchanges the international status of that control so for example people might ask um does the International Community now have a does it accept settlement so one state no of course not because the International Community is passing a judgment about uh you know the The Sovereign control of territory Israel is still violating international law the violation of international law and building settlements had nothing to do with two states Although our policy has been referring to it as it's gonna undermine the two-state solution that's not why it's opposed in the international law uh so the Judgment from the point of view of international organization the International Community uh is not going to shift on the things that are being done illegally on the ground what is going to though do shift is if if we actually look at the one stage of the tourism of of the realities the original one state meaning uh you no longer looking at a pre 1967 Israel which of course was a flawed democracy with structural discrimination against minorities but it's not certainly not an apartheid state and would not have been much worse than many other states all in the world that's why I think people say well there's you know it's flawed but it's it's still a democracy and then there's a temporary control of the Wisconsin that's going to come to an end and and then we'll be fine but when you shift and put on the bird lesson you look at the entire State as wanted and then you you know you can't avoid appealing to the label of apartheid when you describe their relationship between that state and the policy that five million policies in the westbound in gazelle if that's the case apartheid is not about South Africa a lot of people confuse that right because yes of course it is about South Africa in the sense that's where the German emerges but now it's it's part of the international law that it is uh it is a crime against humanity it has a certain characteristics about what what constitutes apartheid that has no reference directly to to South Africa as such and so if that's the case that has another implication for groups and and and uh human rights organization the international organizations so yeah they both the one state reality and the international legality both have consequences for iOS and everything else one other issue I want to tackle which has to do with Israeli politics um and I think that um I'll just give you an example so I was at a think tank recently meeting and uh a former prime minister gives you a little spoke and um uh the head and think that was already a one-state reality and then the former prime minister of Israel said oh don't say that don't say that it's going to happen no matter what two states are going to happen they might take 50 years but they're going to happen anyway just think about the idea then it might take 50 years okay this particular person happens to live in Tel Aviv but they call the television bubble and so when you look at these protests uh there are a lot of liberal people who actually are trying to defend democracy as they as understood it in between 1967 but it was now a it really does jeopardize their own conception of what what what Israel within the 67 boundaries entails but it still insulated it's as if the Palestinians don't exist is still sort of looked at as an outside issue and even Palestinian citizens of Israel had been scarce in these demonstrations and many of the organizing the liberal organizers and there are many obviously it's been heartening to see you know the tens of thousands of Israelis were liberal who are taking on the system and sustainian fashion it is something that is really inspiring when you look at it but they're looking at it through that narrow prism of being 1967 and mostly within the Jewish Community because even the law rules have been under the belief that for them to Prevail they didn't have to peel off some people from the right uh instead of making demolition with with the Arabs but the reality is help it is it will never happen that way or a little bit always a big question you asked about demographics so the demographic sound shifted the balance within the Jewish community in Israel it is very much right way 48 of Jews according to Pew in Israel uh some more uh expelling or transparent Palestinians from Israel ah 79 think the Jews should have privileges over non-jews in Israel but if you peel off the 20 percent or Arab cities in Israel throwing that Coalition uh it's overwhelmingly right-wing in Israel there's not even a close it's not close there's no chance oh but the Liberals the Jewish liberals to Prevail in and they're relying on that that's because of this should go to second place unless they build the Coalition with the Arab citizens and men and then reach out and sure there were progressives in Israel uh on the left to have one but if occupation continues it's gonna come back on all Jews in Israel and undermine the Israeli democracy this is not a new idea it's been said many times but people very few people bought into it now we were hearing a few voices being inspired by this now and saying we told you so uh is this going to lead to transformation maybe among liberals some of them might want to push for that because they understand it they might want to tie it to buy their numbers as I said the numbers don't work their numbers will work only if they build the Coalition or the Arab citizens I don't see that on memorize it I just want to say one exception is one of our chapter writers guy Alberta uh it was a brilliant uh sociologist at Hebrew University um who has actually been a very prominent spokesperson at all on these rallies but also very aware of the relationship between what goes on in the territories and what goes on in Israel it's yours mastered around uh thank you I'm just addressing the question about about Palestinian housing between her so um and I want to be clear here uh man my worst release was about a dozen years ago it was all receding dream of statehood and it's not about Palestinians recruiting media Palestinian state it is just about a freezing sound so yeah I think it looks like it's working more distant but but what I'm really talking about is the centrality of of a statehood as sort of the centerpiece of the National Women's has just gone away down and a lot of reasons for that um the state that was kind of merging during waffle period looked a little bit ugly um internally it looked kind of functioned you know how do you get from gods of the West Bank are you going to control Aerospace and so on um and um and so I just don't think it's the Iron Maiden or Spirit Palestine match over a little more it's not that Palestinians would say we don't want Palestinian State it's just that's not what it's about so what and and one reason why I have a co-authored chapter and I wanted to write it with the younger Palestinian list because what are you the palestinian's talking about right they're not talking about the PLO or you know you want to talk to us you have to talk to uh yeah and don't try to you know uh you know the the the the this the discourse earlier Generations are the one legitimate representative um and and yeah we have a bachelor that just doesn't excite people so so what are the debates that they have one week you sort of heard a little bit there's a lot of talk about like we need to move the right space discourse that's common especially in models or more or to give people um a lot of debate about acting psychic but more about strategy and a lot of the debate that I hear is kind of we need a national strategy uh we don't have one so a lot of discussion about that uh what do you do with these old structures that are kind of littering the the the the uh uh uh sort of political floor like um the PA has people just checked out as as an expression balancing International uh with Palestinian well I'm pretty alone so nobody talks about the PLL as it is instructor but is it something we can do to revive the PLO um and um but the other thing that's really interesting is an increased interest I think in sort of internal transnational advocacy you know when I first heard of BDS I would hear about it from crop alginate under the clouds and that's called Jimmy in with bank yeah go ahead and be D and that's all you want we've got other problems and now no there's a lot of investment in it on the bi it's there's a lot of kind of mutual forehead within Palestinian Society I'm not dealing with uh Israeli institutions and so on not not done not not being with patients being sort of fracked into it a lot of interest in transnational solidarity but this isn't necessarily even Palestinian metric flow Palestine they're not necessarily Palestinians who are involved in this um so that's what people's intention is and that's where their debate is in terms of where this is going I mean the most Frank expression of this hyper is the one I'll see the address I don't know how many people who speaks and what he basically just says one tape state two state 50 states I don't care I want rights um and um I lecture of so many people when many people would be that Frank in that direct but but again the sort of do we want do we want a single stage do we want um I think we wanted two-state those aren't on the major so who cares um and that and that might go slightly too far but only slightly too far just one other thing about what I say about the discussion about about Israel live and the family the the the current moment in Israel I mean I I agree kind of what's with what's been said I would be super as an analytical unintended consequences so so yes this is something this isn't this it has not been really about um what we're talking about here about the one state reality but I think there are repercussions for what's going on in Israel one is that a longer to be IC and this is where there were Graphics there's really there's really sort of I think polarization in the Israeli society and a lot of it is oriented not to get around like you know um their uh no tourism are they uh are they being Discord and again so are they around the city and that sort of thing but really could have what are the Israeli State institutions there for are they there to kind of serve the state of Israel or are they almost likely the armed Winger the Jewish people which they are the people they've been to be in and then that's uh and and so a lot of the discipline that you can see is really kind of I think the establishment against kind of a a populist right and how that lays out will have implications for the one state reality even if it's not supposed to have the agenda but there's another thing that's going on in this real life that's that that this moment um I think obscures a little bit and that is a deep I think a deepening of the tensions within Israel when you listen to Ben Revere uh I mean he talks in a language that reminds me um and also my age out of how reist American politicians stopping that I keep 16s they won't sell I mean well he will say racist things about it but but but what he'll more often say now that he's talking to a broader audience and other people those things do you want you to Daniel this is do you want your daughter to go to a shopping mall and be harassed by those people that's when he talks right and the Palestinian citizens of Israel are getting a fairly clear message um that yes they are welcome to stay in the state so long as they're loyal to a state that it's not loyal to that and the tensions there um I think are ones that we saw explode in May of 2021 um I think it's a civil warning issue in Israeli politics that is um there's there there there's there's an ugliness to what the current government is in this idea of a National Guard which came up a little bit ago is really about the idea of of Patrol and Palestinian citizens of Israel and mixed towns um and so on so they're they're they're there's there's there's something going on there which is not directly related to the protest but I think it has long-term implications for how it is that Israeli citizens uh deal with each other that we need to pay attention to okay and finally why finish well I've been uh maintenance colleague for 15 years with a lot of panels with them one of one of my favorite of his lines is everything's already been said but not by me um I didn't just keep it that way [Laughter] well I mean the one question that wasn't really addressed I think was was your question about uh you know kind of the U.S role being sustaining English talked about this white eligibility um and I would say this from sitting in Washington and watching that I think that very much as people have prescribed here it's not it's all just about managing things at the lowest cost basically it's like not letting this get on to get over the radar and distract things because there are more important things to do Ukraine China um you know whatever you think that is and there's a there's very much of an evangelial approach to what I see in the current Biden team uh they they would prefer that it's not be happening at all and that to the extent that they respond to it it's about trying to find ways to you know to put fires down um without having without having to change what basically is I mean there's very little benefit to be had and Shane moving away from the Tuesday solution if you're Biden uh and a lot of costs to be paid so why make that change I think that the people on the inside understand this when I talk to them this is not a problem of incompretention or of not being able to see the facts it's more about you know the old line of it's very difficult to convince someone of something if their job depends on them not knowing it right and I think that they just they're not the policy is not going to change so they would prefer to Simply keep their analysis in line with you know with the policy not changing um and then there's a lot of that to that but you know listening to Nathan talk about you know The Disappearance of Palestinian Horizons go back to a period in uh just around probably around 2007 2008 when I was in the West Bank talking with people who are organized these were Americans who were trained American jordanians who were training Palestinian security forces and what you would hear from General Dayton and people like that were always like this isn't going to work in the absence of a political Horizon right you know these people don't want to be security some contractors to Israel they want to be the foundation of somebody which has to have a political Horizon towards the Palestinian State and again this was 16 years ago and I think General David right back then and uh and all the people around it and what you have now in terms of the the Palestinian security institutions which um which persist these are the zombies shuffling along in the absence of that clinical Horizon that the devoid of the purpose for which they were created um and this kind of what you have there the only other thing that I used income that I could add is maybe um Perry's question about uh apartheid I agree with um with my colleagues about the um not having a great deal of State in the international you know legal institutions I don't think the icj or the ICC are going to save us um in terms of in terms of what's Happening Here but I do think it's quite interesting and I talked about this inclusion to the book to me one of the most interesting things about all of this is just the sheer rapidity with which you've seen the move of things like one state reality and uh according to apartheid enter into the mainstream of discourse I mean I think that we had for decades on real stagnation as I was describing with U.S policy there's just everyone was locked in a straight jacket of two-state solution and those who were not within that language were very much on the margin so certainly there was a very vibrant and robust Palestinian discourse uh about uh apartheid about the one set reality but it tended to stay within the confines of that one sphere certainly their academics who talked about this quite a bit for example um right here I mean there's a lot of that but they were staying within the bubbles and what's really changed over the last few years I think has been the sudden and abrupt move of those ideas into the mainstream and again like uh I I don't think that the that the legal effects of this for all the great work the people like overseer care and Human Rights Watch and amnesty and others have done and trying to put a legal spin on this I really don't think that's going to matter um but in terms of changing General taken for granted conventional wisdom uh I think those changes have been unbelievably rapid and um they certainly haven't gone all the way to you know this is now what everybody thinks but it used to be that there was basic conventional wisdom taken for granted it's about the nature of the reality in Israel by territories and that doesn't exist anymore I think the way you're seeing now is a much more open rhetorical and discursive battles deal in which ideas that used to be a taboo are now fairly mainstream and ideas that used to be taken for granted now kind of get a roll of the eyes and that's a big change what it leads to I don't know for exactly the reasons that uh that I stated it didn't show us to your question nobody really has a political interest in acting based on it but it's harder and harder to pretend that we don't know even if even if your interests depend on not knowing okay thanks so much now we apparently do have from our uh online guests a few questions and the rest of you get ready to ask some more we're going to gather some more questions to give our speakers another chance to go at it yeah one question did the concept of the two states Origins and the rise of the months okay so we'll find out when our speakers think who else someone who didn't have a question about Spurs uh are you interested in asking that question I actually do that one good but I was feeling a little shy no no uh I'm just curious um are there any uh structural changes that can take place in Palestine in the future not necessarily the near future but the distant future that can enable some sort of uh a sovereign political structure that in some ways allows Palestinian citizens to have that that sort of individual identity um eliminated from the the Israeli um um two-tier structure is there anything that can happen in the future because I I honestly I I coming from India and having that same sort of a conflict the Kashmir conflict um I from what I remember while studying in India as a child was one of the best ways for Kashmir to be truly conflict-free was to have the um single nation-state identity for cashmere um which was independent of Pakistan India or China and I'm just wondering if that is possibility okay there were many possibilities okay who else would like to okay I'll let you ask another one well I just I had a response to the comments about the protests in Japan Palestinians which is just moderated about adolescence protests and the the sort of anti-occupation what even though we're like an extreme minority the betaabas see uh Israeli lives do you feel the sense that there is an audience to their message that happens otherwise been ignorable and the fact that democracy is the byword uh needs Mass exhibit multiplication but I I do think changes at least the beginning quite a conversation to the question that you described about whether or not there's an apartheid when the when the setting of the table for the first science back about her seeing the political agenda uh there's a beginning and so sorry I feel like you saw that more this weekend then you did it previous protests but there's more of that occupation democracy framing uh by some of the organizers that broke through this this week than in the past it's impressionistic but I do kind of feel that way uh well and I read yes oh dear yes um chivalry I'm guessing you do a lot of old anymore yeah so my question is I don't know if they conduct polls that are directed at the ethnicity of the answer in June so I've been to hear about all the Jews since they've grown with Russia they have another clash of the Soviet Union on perception is their their own team servants solemn to change shutters remember what's bad but I'm not positive though right the details that has anybody actually traced when this quite a function of the dental grad between we already discussed but what extent to be the Russian entry into the collapsed and to that Dynamic it's demographic problem okay so we will uh uh take another question keep taking questions until you run out of questions and then we'll because I don't want a chance thank you bye the question should we kind of refer to into it but it's um about to divide in Israeli politics let's say there's a divide between the right and the left where the liberal and the conservative um and then between the Arab citizens um and the rest of the state so between let's say non-zionists or anti-zionists and zionists and between uh the other the other well I mean how how big are those Gulfs and how does that affect the ability to create some kind of Coalition between the Arabs and uh Israelis from let's say the liberal sector and what's the kind of future Dynamic of best just one experience uh I was mentoring a Capstone a few years ago uh on alternatives to the true State solution and the students looked very thoughtfully into Confederate options so I'm just wondering in the general tone of pessimism on alternatives to the one state reality if you still see uh some uh invented usability uh along the confederal line so we'll start now in a different order um should we tell Harmony start or so please and by the way also anything else that you feel is an aspect of the book that should motivate all of us to dig into it that we haven't covered yet okay well actually that's really important because uh honestly uh you know the four was here but we have um you know more than a dozen as Scholars who contributed it's amazing a lot of that Community I mean I learned a lot honestly this is I think we all learned a lot we've converged obviously thinking about this but we learned a lot from our colleagues one of them this year with Delia schindlin who wrote an excellent chapter about Israeli and Palestinian politics but we have uh you know we really haven't touched even on the structures that exist we uh Mark will sure do them I referred to them everybody referred to them but we have such uh strong contributions the Alberto was mentioned that I we all hear from from New York from cun white has it has a fascinating um you know a chapter about little some Contracting you know domination uh we have people you know people like Diane lustig and and uh about you know how a religious side is moves from privilege to Supremacy we have um well all student Israelis College uh uh you know describing the reality on the ground but we'll set people on the policy section will analyze more the consequences what is the likely consequence for policy so I I think it's it's much richer than us honestly I mean we we are we put it together but we we brought some Stellar Scholars that I encourage you to read their word just a couple of things I want to say again on on this um you know idea that some people are now mentioning occupation in the protest movement uh I just want to say two things uh I am willing to bet that that the number of people who say I'm getting informed ask for it and getting out of here is even higher than those you're going to say I'm gonna stay and fight it out uh um uh among those progressives that is the people who are saying that uh you you you you shoot you know the anecdotal and and more than that do it all about the number of people in the high tech sector the financial the thing is unlike in many other places the liberals who are protesting are actually the people of low power in the stage they're the the you know control the economy they're the best educator in there that the high ten people they're the people control the economy and and that's part of the frustration there but their numbers but do Italy and many of them are getting the best way to get out of there because they look at the uh you know what Peter was saying about the change and they say well you know we're you know they're in the majority there's no chance it's moving away from us it's not going to happen so I don't know you know I I'm not that optimistic about the Coalition uh emerging at all with Russian Jews um um I you know there is um it's a complicated story with Russian news because as you know most of them many of them or cellular they were not they're not while they were like they were they were originally you know going to more Catholic than the Pope in terms of their kind of commitment to Greater Israel NATO on the right for example Abby nor Libre who's been all the opposition binary the one issue which is satularism was they they see the lord of the Rocks really roasting this stuff is about because power of the orthology over time but more than that obviously but I I don't think the Russian issue has been that the dominant issue in the shares that took place uh in Israel um just one last point on the Confederation um I don't you know we are we we don't propose a solution right well there's one state or two states of Confederation I don't think cooperation is a solution to anything because you have to go from Tuesdays to get different confederation so it doesn't solve the problem it might be like that it desirable you could say oh this looks good or not I'll embrace it again they support it but it has to this is a stop really a question about what the outcome is I you know or one state outcome with everybody well sounds good to me a two-stage solution with two software statement everybody and two dental practice sounds good to me the Confederation Awards and everybody as evil right sounds good to me I don't have a problem with it is what is the path and consideration doesn't give you an independent pass that you said what's the generation so it's a distraction it ends up being another smokes ball right a resume doesn't work so much more on Confederation no sorry it's the same path and the classes are there we are moving to Michael yeah um a few points here uh one is on on the pro chest and the possibility of a let's say Ross National language in terms of activism between uh Israelis Jews and Palestinians I actually asked that question a couple weeks ago to a couple of prominent human rights activists from Israel in DC and they looked at me like I just said I'm the god or I'm one of the Gods I mean they looked at me like that was the stupidest question they had heard in a long time would you lied about um and because you know it wasn't just simply you know and as they explained it wasn't just simply that those around the streets don't have any you know are strategic and want to keep everything focused on the single issue of the Courts but it was also to the extent of the same reason why you know Israeli left has been largely unconcerned about Palestinian rights and and um and conditions for decades which is that at the end of the day to actually even talk about Palestinian rights has always been that sort of nuclear bomb because it would essentially mean the end of a Jewish stage it would require then a form a new a rate or form of equality that would erase the fundamental back this is a Jewish state I mean this has been there since 1948. it really has it was reasonably okay until 67 and then there was the fiction that this is well the hope that this was going to be temporary but now it's terminals so you know there is no hiding anymore and to go back to one of the other questions when did this become obvious for me it was when there was no longer anybody serious about peace negotiations there was a little bit under Obama but nobody really thought Terry was going to do any accomplish anything um and so once that's gone you know it's gone it was over um the second is badge you know there there's that above that well there will be now you know netanyahu's all numbers are so far down that there will be a new opposition that will come and we'll push nuts and Yahoo and all those you know religious white allies um out of out of office I don't think that's going to change much Israel is Chilean others have said is already too far right there's very little taste for anything like a two-state solution anymore uh and so it may get a happier face one that doesn't you know spew Venom and and males uh like Notch and yeah who does and his and his cabinet allies but I don't think it's going to change much uh I think what you had when you what you see is what you have um in terms of its basics and then the last thing a certain Federation I I'm I'm with Shibley if you thought a two-state solution was already negotiating try negotiating Confederation that just simply you know increases the degree of difficulty by a hundred uh I just don't I don't see that I would rather see them spend their time on a Tuesday solution uh than a confederation I mean as Shirley said if that's what you have to get to first so you know this is a this is awful there's you know no one can say otherwise and it's you know the one state reality forces us to confront the ugliness that we've all wanted to avoid for a very long time yeah okay uh sure so I want to just very briefly talk about this question about other possible long-term changes and just change in general because lower painting is a very Grim picture of things locked into place and I I guess I would suggest that you know changes happen all the time and they tend to happen suddenly just as I was describing with a change in discourse around the reality between Israel then describing israel-palestine this was stagnant for decades and then suddenly you have this Cascade of Rapid change and I would say you look around if you look at Israel right now everything we've said convinces me that there are very few drivers of likely change inside of Israel's one-state reactor it's very difficult to locate them on the other hand if you look at the world right now this is not a stable world right we are undergoing dramatic changes in the global volumes of power the decline of U.S privacy the rise of some kind of multipolar world uh the increasing independence of regional Powers not just Middle East regression hours at MDF for example playing moreover all the goals China and the goal all of these things suggest to me that if you think about the relative stagnation of the Middle East over decades a lot of that is embedded within U.S Primacy and kind of the United States being kind of the blue that holds all of this together holds it all in place U.S Primacy is rapidly declined I'm going to appeal here to the Columbia realists uh and the sibo realists um that structure actually matters International structure actually matters and as U.S privacy declines I think that a lot of things that seemed Unthinkable will suddenly become quite normalized extraordinarily quickly and uh and unfortunately though that's us that it sounds copy uh like oh finally an optimist at the table unfortunately I think it's not likely to change in a literal Direction it's not likely to change in the direction of Justice or inclusion or citizenship that we need at this table that's the collected we I invoke here uh would like to see I I think it's this is a populist ERA this is a world inhabited by autocrats um that or ascendant and liberalism International institutions liberals within liberals and Democratic societies are on the defensive um and so I would say that change is quite possible but it's more likely to be suddenly and catastrophic and in a non-liberal direction than it is kind of a sudden Cascade towards peace of Justice inside an Israel and Palestine so that might even be more pessimistic than like goldfish but I do think that it's important for us to keep in mind that a lot of the continuities and structures of the Middle East are very much shaped by the fact that this was a U.S this was the locus of U.S Primacy globally City gang and it no longer is and I do think that matters okay Professor Brown we are counting on you to save us all on that so let me First Look Backwards it's a book it's a question that doesn't address when did the true State solution die we've got a couple of chapters that are limited kind of uh historical and very interesting because mayor has one I'm going to just address it personally my own terms I was actually speaking with somebody who was a peace processors like last week about this um and um the answer I think which he didn't disagree with was there are two moments of men and I'm not quite sure which one number one would have been the uh first election uh the idea of the peace process I mean I've been with Mark there was it we focused on the process was actually the idea was we would have some kind of momentum building or trust solutions that were not I think well yesterday would become thinkable um and and you would handle essential political Elites invested animation amazing this thing happen you mean 96 yes so you and then you have an Israeli leadership that comes again that will not commit itself to this um and is actively trying to undermine it um I'm not going to yeah um explain why why I'm never committed himself to Austin he always said well we'll implement it if the Palestinians do and so he basically had an unravel it um so it may have been there and I'm not quite sure that the peace process ever after it would recover the needle in the coffin for me however I didn't see it that when I seen Bill Gates so Palestinians once had a a leader who actually had gone to the UK and written a esication on um comparing Islamic and uh Jewish daily prayer rituals for women um and they came back and he wrote a book on Islam in the peach process which was basically saying look we have to realize um we're not dealing with Crusaders here uh designers Burns our boats we're going to have to deal with these people then it was that sort of being a shot and he's the person who designated broadcaster when Hamas came in it when the the U.S response was well we kind of rope him in and get him to do this signed the hamburger nickel event and and we can get him to avoid reputing Roswell we've got kind of like and and the reaction always comes with exact opposite we've got to bring them down um and I don't know whether Hamas could have been brought in but I know it wasn't dry um and I and and a little it was a long shot but it wasn't necessarily impossible so when that's why I say 2007 for me was what I said okay this is not this cannot happen anymore um so whether it was 96 or whether it was um um um uh 2007 I don't know um but that's Superior which I personally can't believe it okay the peace process is that the two-state solution is dead um looking to the Future um and kindly oh man remember you're supposed to get us but I won't so so it's not going to be with it's not going to happen anytime soon okay um and um I I really actually like the question about cashmere um I I like it and I don't like it the reason I don't like it is because I always felt that we've got to stop thinking about like Lord Island South Adam we've got to start thinking about these in intractable situations um and and I mentioned cashmere and then there's somebody who knows something right in the front row so so you're right I'm not going to say anything more at all what cashmere teaches us um but I but I think who's already in the situation let me let me switch it to some somewhere else and this also kind of deals with the the question about the Federation um where I hear us basically saying uh similar things yes it's possible to think of all kinds of situations that are much more adjustable to us the problem is how they get there and I don't think we are at a time when concerted and conscious political action will get us there um when I think about this I won't go to cashmere um but I will say only how did how did formal Jim Crow's education ended Assad and I would have explained it I'd talk about things like a great migration and the growth of federal power and through long-term social changes and that's what I think we really have to look at right now if I would mention one chapter in here might be uh another cellist where he talks about some exchanging conceptions of the whole land um geographical of conceptions um um so so that's where I come back to um there uh when I hear questions about the demography when I hear um about uh uh uh which is sort of a lot in terms of sort of long-term social and ideological changes those are the things we have to pay attention to um and where they lead I don't know uh but the over concentration about a short term diplomacy short-term diplomacy right now will be a way to make things better or worse uh to obscure what's going on to high attention to what's going on what is not going to get us to Confederation to one state to state to 15 states it's not going to do anything like that um and um when change happens suddenly maybe 20 years from now 30 years from now 50 years from now it would be because of long-term forces which we can probably see now but we're probably we've managed to stimulate another question now we have in real time so let's do it for something question because I actually written the paper on Confederation for Brookings back in 2020 I'm writing one now for instance usap um I agree that uh there's no pathway it's been Federation that's distinct password anything else at the end of the day it's about changing the cost benefit calculus for the Israelis so that the current status boils the majority or the bulk or the center I was really like I would only uh equivalent was the um the sun stuttering if you look at Confederation you have to see it as a a new tool set to to result in a situation that two states does not do so you don't have to get to two states to get to confederation so even though it's a it's a constitutional framework of two states that come together so I think there's there's a bit of dependency well what my students stand is they looked at three issue areas good for everyone good uh and so a water for example where there's ongoing cooperation functionally and that sort of creates mechanisms for power sharing which are clearly beneficial to both communities uh the capacity to disentangle uh citizenship from our Refugee status in terms of that one could be a residential Palestine uh you know under the Palestinian State um but settlers wouldn't necessarily have to be a victim because they could choose to vote in Israel and vice versa and that would lighten the burden on that and Jerusalem where there's no way to unscramble it so um I like the way you put it that you don't have to go through to a successful two-state mechanism to get to a confederal mechanism but without the political will I mean our enlistic in his book Paradigm lost was counting more on an upheaval intellectual politics in Israel part of which stood involved Palestinian citizens of Israel becoming integral a non-jewish Citizens available becoming entangled to coalitions in a way that liberals opening up the political system might welcome nothing looks very optimistic right now but you know some of us want to hold on to one other pleasure I can clarify my first question didn't get answered and that was about uh the gulf between non-zionists and zionists there's a lot of talk about building this Coalition among Arab citizens of Israel and you know the lab in order to overtake the right but is it possible is the goals between non-zionists and zionists wider as I see it than between Liberal zionists Liberal zionists and religious Natural Science and is that ever going to change did you ever bridge that gap between a non-zientist or anti-zionist community and the last because it seems like the other side is much influencer yeah just ultimately speaking despite their Dunes can you gave me a better sense of who you're talking about what are you say now on scientists 20 of the population that's Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel who are anti-zionists or non-zionist or however they're not zionists okay and the liberal zionists you know that that golf between them the differences between them seem much wider than between liberal zionists and the right wing within Israel so and so you know peeling the left off to build this correlation against the right seems much less likely than ever uh yeah I mean you know all when you when what what that ultimate means is again what you were saying earlier is is in the death of the Jewish States because you know if you're going to bring the non-zionist in then you're also like reading an equal state well as you know Palestinian Israelis have been split on this uh so you have people who treat yourself possible and they're calling for stateable Citizens not Jewish but the majority actually have better fine with finding space to to Barnard with with uh with all the fall including was I done there uh to to partner and the mainstream bodies have won a lot of seeds that have been prepared to oh work within the system still embrace the Tuesday so we should still do they haven't shifted their position uh while calling for you know obviously in the bed list for the Boston is I think the trust was uh uh the election uh when they just a couple of years ago when they won 15 seats as as a United joint list and they were counting on the liberal Zionism centers to bring him in uh to make that decision when guns they fought betrayed them and uh and that actually was the moment when I say it may have shifted the balance within most days really thinking about whether it is really durable now there are people like diamond Audi you know who's still optimistic about the possibility uh but I think the the bells may have shifted away from that uh of people who who are increasingly um you know uh pessimistic and not the possibility of such a coalition I happen to think that has to come from a liberal zionists because as I as I and arithmetic I just don't see their chance of prevailing at all unless they move to the land uh to to win them Alzheimer's and because it's just there's no way they can do that well can they make that ideological leap and what would it all I don't know what state itself I don't know but you know if you look if you are already let's assume I mean let's think this other than all you know I mean I think everybody has thought about this but if you're let me let me put myself in a position of a liberal Zionist brutality who started this startup that it was made 30 million dollars and it was better and and he's liberal and or she and she's making a lot of money in in the Israeli system and she wants to you know maybe avoid looking at though at the West bad and for sure but it is much more accepting now if that you come to the realization that there's no chance you're going to Prevail so your option is either to switch and move to toward the arms despite your Zionism or to to get a foreign that's the choice so well you know will enough people move in that direction I don't know but but there is no you know if you're looking at the arithmetic and you're looking at the trajectory and you're looking at nanographics uh that's the choice and now there's a lot of maturity I don't think that's necessarily the winning opportunity responsible just a couple things um first on Confederation I'll give you a slightly more optimistic's been on my earlier answer um because I'm writing a chapter for the same collection at least it is uh Amish um um in a sense no I don't think it's going to happen um for all the reasons we talked about discussions about it or it can still be important right for the same reason as the discussions that you and uh who took place took part in the early 90s they widened the concessions about what is possible so those kinds of out so please don't invite either those discussions because I'll I'll just kind of making everybody joke along uh but getting people created people coming over with new ideas and invading some good um and this second in terms of I mean I shouldn't even with it was truly I think he's probably right but I come a little bit closer to my elastic care so the interesting figure there to me is not I'm an outlet it's it's uh it's all right who could be in you know the garage the Israeli government collapses tomorrow Netanyahu to stay out of jail and mansouraba says do you need some such a Ministry and oh I meant yeah we'll pass your your your your your your judicial and all of a sudden you have suddenly a Muslim Brotherhood is a political party Indian Israeli Coalition you you couldn't have that and suddenly again it shakes things out I think again I'm a big believer when it comes now I assertive political action towards the solution they will not work but I didn't even the consequences and you know for for an awful lot of Palestinians wants to have as a traitor uh certainly for most West Bank Palestine I was out in a few years um but this would actually shake up just the way the Israeli political system is structured in ways we haven't really bothering so I think we have to pay attention not to how we're going to get to you know this kind of outcome or that kind of outcome but what kind of why the cards could make as Mark said some things happen sound that we didn't think were possible well I invite you to approach our speakers personally if you want to have more intimate conversations I thank them enormously we've learned so very very much and I really recommend the book I'm definitely assigning it my next one release the press and uh please uh take a look thank you very much

Channel: Columbia SIPA

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Id: Gn0D-Vg2s_M

Length: 98min 33sec (5913 seconds)

Published: Mon May 08 2023