Bloomberg Technology Summit | Session 2

[Music] please take your seats the program will begin in five minutes please take your seats the program will begin in five minutes [Music] thank you [Music] thank you [Music] laughs [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] thank you [Music] please take your seats the program is about to begin please take your seats the program is about to begin [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] please take your seats the program will begin now please welcome to the stage Bloomberg's Tom Giles greetings everybody welcome back for lunch hope you had a good one and I hope you had a chance to network with your colleagues and counterparts if you didn't you'll have another opportunity after the presentation I have a few housekeeping items for you for those of you who are attending virtually welcome back if you have any issues with the video or the audio quality and I hope you aren't I apologize and I have a really high tech Solution please refresh your browser failing that uh there's a there should be a chat box in the bottom right corner of your screen and you can use that for support for those of you here live by way of reminder there should be Wi-Fi information on your badges on the tabletops or right here on the screen from time to time uh if you want to ask questions during the sessions take out your phone scan the QR code and that's where you can write questions for our speakers now please join me in giving a warm welcome to Aisha Evans CEO of zooks welcome [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] so before I uh I want to kick off my conversation with Aisha by sharing a confession with you so so go back to 2017 when Intel bot mobile eye for 15 billion dollars at that moment I was convinced that I was so convinced that autonomous driving was going to take off and rule the world that I shared privately with people it was Private that I was convinced that neither of my kids would my youngest kid would never have to get a driver's license given the given the proliferation of uber and given the imminent revolution in uh in in autonomous driving well I was wrong my kid is off to college and has their driver's license so I got caught up in the hype I was naive I fully admit that um I would love to hear from you um you know what role do you believe the industry played and continues to play possibly in helping to generate that hype I shared mine privately but there are maybe counterparts of yours who've helped to publicly generate a sense of that this is inevitable and that it's coming soon does the industry share some of that responsibility this is the part where he gets to Do privately and I get to do it in public yeah I got it I just beared my soul publicly um I have a slightly different viewpoint on this um I think we we have a tendency to want to label things instead of looking at history and looking looking at how things happen you have to have irrational belief exuberance to go after something this worthy this transformative and this impactful on society so you want the people who are starting to be naive and I don't mean that as an insult I actually mean that as an intellectual compliment and to think it's going to happen tomorrow morning then you get all of the effort all of the energy and you get probably too many people even going after the problem or the opportunity then things settle down and we normalize and then a few companies are left and because it's worthy we do the work and eventually the normal rules around execution around points on the boards around building a business take hold and I think that's the phase we're in right now but the three things that are super important it's we know the demand is there it's being served today though differently we know that it will enable amazing things for society whether it's from a safety standpoint from a climate standpoint productivity and we know it's going to be to be happening so that's what's really important but the normal beginning exuberance is uh required do you need to change the way you talk about this the way you set expectations and how do you balance that with the need to continue to generate excitement around it it's important to generate excitement among the public and you have you have CEOs to serve at at Amazon as well I was wondering how long it would take before we got to Amazon anyways uh look I think we've been fairly balanced and I think uh uh I don't think we need to be uh we're a lot more realistic we've done enough testing enough seen enough Pilots to know what it's going to take to solve this problem and so I think we need to be optimistic I think we need to show progress there's a lot of progress specifically in this city you don't have to go far to see the progress and my fellow Travelers are doing actually a great job on that front so are we so I don't think we need to talk our way into things we just need to you know Show and Tell and uh keep scaling keep expanding and that's all it's going to take the rest will come I'm getting I want to come back to some of the technology technological questions in a minute but I also want to talk about some of the ways that we have thought traditionally about autonomous driving there is a perception that has been perpetrated by the industry I would say including possibly some of us in the media that machines are smarter or better at driving but when you think about and and that people are make dumb choices and let's face it a lot of them do but when you look at it on a miles driven basis people are actually a lot safer than that rhetoric would suggest and it's really hard and we you know we talk about how well robot drivers are actually better than than humans I'm not sure that that's fair when you look at it on a miles driven basis and and so do we kind of need to you know fess up to the idea that maybe humans aren't as bad and machines are maybe more flawed than we're giving them credit for or it's too early to make those compare those those comparisons again um I think uh first of all on this one I'll speak for myself not for the industry uh out of the gate I've been very clear uh 40 close to 45 000 fatalities in the United States due to car crashes and the majority of them are due to somebody making essentially doing something dumb that is not acceptable I hope we never live in a world where we think that losing 45 000 Americans when it's totally avoidable is okay computers are extremely good at following rules right and by computers I'm generalizing the sensors um all of the software by the way all of the functional safety too and given that those 45 000 fatalities come from human error a lot of them obviously computers will be great at that but I have been extremely clear you know when you come in from Corporate America and go into this kind of space everybody thinks she's going to be too conservative I'm like yeah whatever the reality is there's a metric we don't talk about enough which is what you're alluding to which is that in the United States collectively we drive a hundred million miles per fatality I mean what put it on good at driving and how do we do that first of all by not being dumb and doing stupid things like getting drunk and driving looking at our phones and all that stuff but we do that because we're extremely good humans as measured by the last 2000 years are dealing with certain things with things we haven't seen before at adapting and making quick decisions computers are not as good as that yet and it's going to take a while and you can't just do regression against that because it's about scenarios it's not about number of miles and that is why the problem is hard that's why we're making progress that's why we're being cautious and along the way it's really important for these Robo taxes to be super safe and this is why zukes from the from inception I don't take credit for this the two co-founders set that up they started with the robo taxi as a business and say if you take those two metrics the 45 000 and the 100 million how do you redesign and re-architect the vehicle and it is not a call let's not argue about that today it is a robo taxi how do you react what redundancy what safety what systems what sensors what compute how do you put points on the board to prove your testing how do you build a quantity safety model how do you look at getting stuck and how do you deal with that how do you look at Comfort metrics and that's why I think we have to be balanced how much of your testing is done in real world scenarios on roads versus running regressions running you know running these you know running the systems through a computer we have obviously do a lot of simulation you can't solve this problem without simulation when you're changing things uh you know you have a new release every two weeks obviously you have to have great simulation and also when you want to look at the variation around all the scenarios now we do a lot of testing on test tracks we have a private access to a private facility that behaves sort of like public roads and as we announced uh a few months ago we're testing on public roads in California and yeah it's a little route about you know kind of a mile um also each Direction but it's a mighty route because you've got four or five companies and towers of employees that are coming and going and driving they have no patience for waiting or what have you you have sort of a fire truck emergency vehicle Depot learn a lot through that lucky us there's also an active construction zone you have pedestrians trucks people on those uh uni thingies I don't know scooters right so yeah lots of scenarios so we absolutely test on on public roads in California in Foster City and we really focus on scenarios that's what matters to us when you look at miles driven miles testing miles um you know Cruise waymo pretty far ahead you're about nine percent if my math serves last year what do you need to do to change those those Dynamics I know love how he asks leading questions like first he makes a statement in the question I'm not conceding that I'm behind that's not happening no look uh lots of respect for my fellow Travelers it's a big market and uh three U.S companies making it or four is a good thing we have a different approach which we don't chase the number of miles it's also Capital intensive you have to be very careful with how much money you deploy because I know you know in Silicon Valley sometimes we forget but the money chickens they always come back to roost so you got to make up for them at some point and so no we go after the number of miles we need to hit the scenarios that we need and right now we've been scaling at a rate that we're very happy with and we're getting sort of very close to the optimal number of miles that we need per year for our approach what are the what are the problems that are most the thorniest problems that you need that you're losing sleepover the the ones that we still need to solve for in order to prove to the public that it's safe that I can put my aging parent in a robo taxi because I can't get in the car for whatever reason what do we still need to solve so I sleep pretty well um because basically I can't function if I don't sleep and nobody wants that uh but I get the essence of your question so we can't go too fast we we really have to be responsible and we look at these big inflection points right in transportation for example but also whether it's the virtual Transportation like the internet I was in Wireless for a long time it's not that long ago that we saw the first sort of GPRS texts go through on an LCD screen we're like wow but we wanted the world of today and we had to get our way there so we can't scale too fast we can we cannot compromise on safety any of us because that will hurt all of us now in terms of technology I will say it doesn't keep me up at night yet it will someday I think but we're starting to work on it snow is complicated uh the vehicle Dynamics um manageable I mean we're testing on snow as we uh like on a you know fairly well in a real world in the no not in the real world on test track but the vehicle Dynamics basically that's where you test them first the the issue with snow is that the way the stack is built today from a perception uh prediction and then uh planning and eventually control of the vehicle that really depends on the world around you that's why we're geofans and that that also depends on testing you've already done in either those scenarios or stimulus scenarios and when it snows depending on how things were snowplowed depending on what the city does with the snow and how it does it you're basically facing a world change and one that's very Dynamic and very unpredictable and uh back to the 100 million miles we don't like Dynamic and unpredictable uh teeing up that we took a survey if you could if you could call it up for one of my future questions um uh on that question of snow um where where should you be testing and where do you want to be testing in order to because you're not going to get that in Foster City anytime soon and Vegas right you're in Vegas too look first we have a lot of work to do I I um I talked to our team a lot about earning the opportunity for the next step on the next phase we certainly have a lot of work to do in um what I call the Sun Belt where the weather's nice uh where there's a business because there are dance cities San Francisco is one but there are many many other cities uh because we we just can't wait to solve snow to get out there so what this means is that uh cities that have a lot of snow as measured by number of days uh per year will come later from a deployment standpoint and as far as where we need to be testing for that I think you know the cities where it snows in the United States as well as I do where do you where would you like to be where would you I mean I mean the price is New York City okay that's the prize okay but uh buyer beware we have a lot of work so we can all drive there what needs to be done in order for you to be able to start testing some of your Robo taxis there we have that we have already declared we're going to be in like San Francisco and Las Vegas accumulate a lot of data in parallel do a lot of testing apply some of the latest techniques see what what we can do around snow to accelerate uh see a way of simulating and then we'll go there but one of the things this is this is a journey we'll just get there over time you've had some pretty big Milestones recently including in February getting the you know getting the permissions Etc um what is the what do you know what is the most important thing you've learned once you've been able to kind of get your your machines right in into the real world and two how has that brought you closer to how much closer to commercialization has that brought you uh we're getting quite close uh we would not have studied the journey on public roads unless we were I mean I don't have a special date or anything like that because that would be inappropriate but we're getting quite close uh the we're getting a lot of feedback uh nothing better than your employees writing you know they have a lot of opinions this is Silicon Valley Engineers right they think they're all ux designers so uh we're learning a lot uh we're learning a lot about the service I would say the most important thing is the operational aspect of it right we have a purpose-built vehicle that is built specifically and only for this so we're learning uh from that standpoint as far as the actual launch it will come when we meet all of the metrics that we have set for ourselves and they're making good progress um a show of hands you probably saw the survey they took it away but maybe the question wasn't asked the right way but maybe you could just if you've had a a uh if you've been a passenger in a self-driving car and know the Tesla self-driving that doesn't count raise your hand if you've if you've been a passenger in a cruise or a okay so it's still pretty it's still pretty it's still pretty small um in order for um in order for you to right now you're only uh your only passenger zukes employees in order to kind of widen that I'm not talking about commercialization but like just getting you know the general public what needs to happen for that so their stages the first have a a vehicle that's sweet legal right um uh fmvss applies to everyone uh then you have to have your state driver's license I call it right then at least in the state of California it starts to differ from there in the state of California then you have a series of permit from the cpuc one is for external folks without charging them and then the last stage is for external folks and charging them Affair and so we're in the middle of that of that stage of application we recently tallied up the number of projects that Andy jassy is eliminating that were begun under his predecessor what's his name um Jeff Bezos I I what uh can you tell me give me a sense of kind of what the conversation is like with Senior Management at Amazon about the kinds of things that they need to see in order to demonstrate the viability the commercial viability of your business because I'm clearly clearly they're taking a very a much closer look at expenses right now what does that conversation sound like right now look I mean we're super grateful uh for Amazon they've been a great parent it's nice not to be uh tin cupping uh every night uh for you know a lot of capital uh they asked really good questions we have a plan what they expect from us is that we execute to what we said we were going to execute to and we're putting points on the board and generally meeting our milestones and then getting to commercialization when we say we're going to do that will be a pilot and an entry and from their scale and iterate so I get asked this question a lot I promise you it's pretty normal boring conversations with good questions uh good word about this what about that how is it going and still using the six page the six page I love the six-pager yeah how often are you having to resubmit no well you don't write one and then it's uh forever that's not the way it works and for every meeting uh you write one and so every time we meet them we have one uh we started using it inside of zooks too not like mandatory but uh it's it's very sobering way first of all the meeting is very organized because that's kind of weird but you just come in and the first thing you do is you read the document so there's no I wasn't there I didn't hear it I didn't read it I didn't prepare I wasn't at the scene of the crime none of that happens because you read everybody reads the same doc you uh then you ask macro questions like sort of the overall overarching point of the dog and then you go Page by Page and everybody gets a turn and asks a question and then if there are decisions or action items um they are recorded and then you move on so we write one every time we have um we have a meeting and at zukes we we use them for you know big hairy complex topics where it's really important to look at all point of views and to look at all Upstream Downstream sideways to get discounting views and uh yeah I love the six pager what is Zeus's valuation right now and how does it compare with what it was when Amazon made the acquisition so uh well it's higher than when Amazon making me the acquisition thank God that's good news that's very good news I think so too how much higher well it's higher one of the things though that we we're not very uh we want to get to market look it's the business exists right uh customers want it we believe there's time expansion possible I still think about you know my daughter is 17 I'm like well I don't know about this mode of transportation versus that mode of transportation uh you have a lot of teenagers you have busy areas you have uh people who need meaning of an all more senior people so the market is there it's really about hush say what you're going to do do what you're going to say execute get to Market and if you provide value and you're safe and you're responsible the opportunities are boundless what is going to be most surprising to me when I have you on stage in five years I think when it comes to zooks how thoughtful we were in preparing to get to Market so that once we get to market the ability to iterate and the ability to gain and maintain customer Trust is really high you think you'll be to Market by then well five years come on now I don't have all night yeah thank you so much for being with us thank you Aisha Evans CEO of Zeus [Music] please welcome to the stage director of research at distributed AI Research Institute Dr Alex Hannah Credo AI founder and CEO navrina Singh and Signal Foundation president Meredith Whitaker with Bloomberg Sarah fryer [Music] thank you um so backstage one of the first things that happened is Alex tells me I have some lettuce in my teeth I feel like you need to be that kind of person to do what these women are doing which is telling us all like as much as we think about the promise of AI technology as much as we want to believe in the growth story here there's got to be a moment for a reality check um and actually have a conversation grounded in what's happening now um about what we can do so thank you and thank all of you for being here I'm really excited to talk about this um first I think we need to start with the definition of what we're talking about um are we talking about Humanity Extinction are we talking about sentience are we talking about what's happening today you can start with Meredith what do we yeah what do we mean when we say AI ethics well I doubt there's one single definition among most of the VCS here right AI is a floating signifier that has been applied to wildly Divergent technological methods over its over 70 year history and in the early 2010s some people realize that techniques dating from the late 1980s could do new things when they were accompanied by massive amounts of surveillance data and massive amounts of compute so AI is a derivative of the surveillance business model that was established and sort of entrenched by these large tech companies it is not a set of Novel technological innovations it cannot be conflated with scientific progress and in fact many of the products and techniques described as AI are heterogeneous they're not coming from the same technological methods so we're talking about a marketing term not a technological term of art that is working to cede incredible power to the handful of companies that have the infrastructures to develop and deploy these systems so the Privacy issue you've got the the Privacy issue there we've got the the concentration of power issue never know what would you add to that list oh there's a lot so I I agree with Meredith I think first we need to align on AI is not one thing and unfortunately he's being positioned as this one big massive thing but I think the way we see at Credo AI which is a AI governance software platform is that there is a spectrum of risk right now I think there's a lot that we can be doing In fairness we can be doing a lot in robustness security of these systems rather than just focusing on what is you know sentience and Skynet scenarios so and I think that is a little bit of distraction that's happening in the market but right now there's already a lot of AI risk that the companies need to be solving right now right here yeah and building on that we've seen a few things it's been mentioned here at this conference the future of Life uh letter the 22 open tweet that many people not an open letter an open tweet that people sign on so it's time to write yeah I know right and so basically focusing on something um that is existential existential risk or um a super intelligence that's going to take over is really a distraction um as Navidad said that basically um we have so much to see right now there are people in the African diaspora who cannot see uh who are getting harassed or getting death threats um for what they're in on social media platforms right now there's massive amounts of disinformation being perpetuated on the platform preventing people from getting accurate information around disease and health right now there are disparities and the allocation of Health Care and so Social Services to communities of color we don't really need to look far in the future into Super intelligence to um uh to really um see the risks of AI when I hear super intelligence or existential risk what I really hear is this is going to be a future problem to white people and rich people and uh and what we have now are problems that are leveraged to people of color disabled people queer people and that's okay and we're gonna just roll with that in future on these things that don't exist yet how do you see AI exacerbating inequality and is there something we can do about it now in your mind yeah I mean we're already seeing this in multiple different places Yad obermeyer published a study multiple years ago showing that Healthcare allocation by a popular algorithm the one algorithm that they looked at found that they were training models on Healthcare expenditure and it was disproportionately uh not allocating care to Black Americans and they went ahead and published that report but that was only one algorithm used in multiple different Medical Systems we've seen it in the way that facial analysis and facial recognition systems by pioneering work by joy bolamwini to meet um don't work well on women of color we've seen it in terms of the way that welfare allocation is given in communities of color and poor in poor people and how these tools are being used to supercharge discrimination against communities of color and poor people as especially in the child welfare system so we need tools to enable us to see what's happening in these systems and that means looking at these very narrow uses of AI and the way they're discriminating against vulnerable populations how do you go about convincing people to Rally around these issues and and maybe you have different issues in mind than Alex but when you are talking to people who are so caught up in in the arms race honestly for for AI development like how do you get them to listen to like we need to keep this in mind like we need to make sure that we are built while we still have control of these tools that were inserting um you know some some control well I mean look there are a handful of companies that do have control over these tools there's no mystery about where that control comes from and there's no escape velocity in which these tools just populate like pollen into the ecosystem and you know act on their own full stop um I want to come back to sort of Alex's point because I think Alex gave a number of great examples of how these models themselves can perpetuate bias as a product of the way that they're built their Frameworks their training data and you know how they operate their internal Logics but that's obviously not the only way right these models can perpetuate you know histories of marginalization and inequality due to who gets to use them who gets to decide how they're used and who they're used on so you know when you ask kind of you know how do we rally people to this cause how do we get them to pay attention um I think we're you know in this room this is a very narrow context right this is sort of the tech World tech journalist VCS this is this is not the world right this is a very specific Community but you know look down to LA and you have people rallying around this you have the writer's Guild of America who are on strike right now saying Hell no we're not going to allow the studios to introduce GPT in a way that would undercut our standard of living you know justify their firing us then hiring us back as AI editors with oh wait it's an uberization so no no contract no benefits no security so people are rallying and they're rallying hard but we're not usually interpreting that as a rejection of these forces of inequality and consolidation of power so I think we need to you know when we talk to say sam about the future of work we need to be really specific right whose job which work you know are you in favor of Microsoft licensing the GPT technology to large Studios to undercut writers jobs or not let's be precise if I you know I I agree with Meredith and I think the context here is pretty narrow um I do want to talk a little bit about incentive misalignment um I don't think you can just bring someone to the table and expect them to listen I think you really have to sort of speak their language so as an example what we are seeing in the Enterprise World be it the big Tech or some of the fast rising AI startups I think their incentives are literally human incentives we are either motivated by ambition or we are driven by fear and so what we are seeing is even though there are these important consequences as Alex and Meredith mention uh there needs to be a translation to business objectives as well and so what we are seeing right now especially in the regulatory side is one fear-based motivations that is I need to be compliant to whatever regulations come up I need to make sure what does good look like for my company is well defined and we've heard that narratives today where there's been discussions around ethics is important but I don't know what that means for my organization which I think is a little bit of a cop-out because if you put in the intention you can actually figure out what does good look like for my company for my context for my applications and then the second side is the ambition and this is where we are seeing actually a lot of AI first ethics forward companies where you know there is a big focus on using trust using uh you know this narrative and and the problem sets we are seeing in the consumer space as a competitive Advantage what is the business reason to invest in ethics throughout an organization like how when you talk to to clients like how do you get them to understand you know it's not just about being sued or running afoul of laws like how how do you make them realize like this is something because there aren't a lot of regulations yet there aren't a lot of laws that take into account the current reality yeah great question so you know at Credo aiv our mission is to make sure AI is in service of humanity but it also needs to translate to business objectives so what we are seeing is companies who are very transparent around how they've built these systems where they will use these systems where they will not use these systems are actually seeing accelerated sales Cycles they're seeing more trust with the customers and consumers because there's a level of transparency being built and then we are seeing shorter procurement Cycles as well so you know I think ethics is such a critical component of making sure that the discrim Nations and the inequalities we are seeing in society and economy is not only tackled but there's a business incentive you know to really make sure it's good business and good governance aligned I want to go back to the concentration of power point that you that you made um we have these companies that are not only you know running these models but also they have the research that they're doing that maybe they're releasing maybe they're not um they're they have the Talon pool like how do you think that if you are you know working at a startup now or working in the industry now that you can reclaim some of that power from the larger companies I mean I don't I don't have a one weird trick right this power is concentrated infrastructure this power is concentrated data this power is Market reach to continually renew that cycle this power is you know it is a feedback loop that constitutes in economic terms and natural monopoly so when we're talking about the startup industry you know the AI startup scene I think most people in this room probably know more than others that these are like Barnacles on the whole of big Tech these are not competitors these are using the Frameworks created by these tech companies the pi torches the tensorflows which are basically kind of like Enterprise services that are like sprinkle some AI dust on it and get an AI out right but this is not a meaningful mechanism of competition and I do worry about the framing that like business incentives well aligned with social good we'll solve this because business incentives aren't always going to be aligned with social good and we have an article out and wired today by Gabriel Gill and Christian samvig that look at a whole new industry of repurposing military surveillance AI to track and detect labor organizing among workers right flip that on the head what is the business incentive for you know building AI that tracks wage theft by employers zero so like we're not going to solve this by sprinkling some Goodwill self-regulation and like compliance mechanisms we need to recognize that the core incentives are sort of built on a concentration of surveillance power that we actually have to check head-on and one thing one thing I want to add on to what mayor this is saying is that when we get into the areas of generative AI these the threat that these have the margins that are being made as as these things being a labor disciplining device the way that these are going to cut costs them later but we know from reporting recent reporting in The Verge that there is an army of workers who are doing annotation behind the scenes to even make this stuff work to any degree workers from uh who work with Amazon Mechanical Turk people who are worked with Samba annotators in in in in Venezuela Kenya and the US actually all over the world right now Amazon Mechanical Turk Works in 190 different countries that any kind of way they're doing the labeling they're actually doing the labeling whereas and Sam and Ahmed and all these other people who are going to say these things are magic no there's humans and I want to I want to have this term and I and I attributed this term to a dear fellow Nathan Kim who calls this autonomy fetishism so that we know that we know so this is Cherry taking maybe this is the first time we hear marks on stage all day but this is taking the marxian term of commodity fetishism bearing the labor deep deep deep so we know that exchange of Commodities is not labor this turns it on its head these things need to appear as autonomous and it has this veneer on this but there is so much human labor underneath it so where generative AI is flourishing or has this it is because there's the threats of them possibly displacing massive amounts of Labor as Meredith mentioned and being rehired to babysit these tools at a at a fraction of the rate this is an imagination this has happened that Google in terms of the voice assistant work uh it's happening and if it hasn't been reported yet um it will be so that's what I see and that's where I see generative AI the real threat happening if if I may respond to something Meredith you said that it's you know aligning business objectives to social good I I don't think we should all believe that's always going to happen but I think what's really critical and the discourse we are having here today is a testament to that that all of us have different perspectives and we are bringing that to this table to ensure that defining what good looks like for this industry is a collective effort not dictated by a bunch of powerful companies but at the same time not dictated by you know a set of activists so the question is how do you bring those parties together to make sure that we for Humanity are defining what good looks like is really important well I think there are some there are some business problems that are catching on as as major concerns right like if you're using if you're using um gen AI for your coding you may end up with a possible vulnerabilities in your code that are across many Industries and you could be more susceptible to hacks right like that's one really obvious um one really obvious example you also have issues with IP if you're using something that is is scraped from you know artists that didn't give their consent for their images to be used I mean there are some real like issues but then there's also the layer of societal consequences when you have police departments and you know welfare groups and local governments using AI to make decisions that affects people every day not saying that the the tax Etc don't but um yeah and I think one thing and I want to and these are great points I mean there is ways in which there is a business case to be made for some of these things IP is going to be possibly one thing but copyright goes so far copyright is you know has famously been a very contentious issue especially in the free software Community um and it is only going to get us so far copyright also has to go through multiple different tests uh met hubcon and I actually have an article called the subject and stages of data set development and the Ohio State Tech Law Journal Law Journal which it talks about the kind of ways in which copyright could be used to protect artists and could be a venue of legal liability but copyright law different kinds of security vulnerabilities are not going to protect for instance workers whose labor is going to be deeply casualized and uberified by the introduction of this copyright is not going to protect poor families from having children stashed away from them in in different places where social services are incredibly squeeze these are going to be consumer tools but at some point you need some intervention that is going to be on the axis of discrimination of um uh of measures that are effectively crimes of poverty and there needs to be intervention that's going to escape that domain well I think most people would say like obviously we don't want those things to happen but what can we do right now so you guys are are having those conversations all the time with people who were probably asking you like is there something I can change about my business or something I can change about you know how I'm spending my time how I'm using these tools like what would you tell um the people of this audience that they should they should keep in mind or adjust about the way they're using AI well I would say maybe some of the people in this audience are the users of AI but the majority of the population is the subject of AI they are not the people using AI this is not a matter of individual Choice most of the ways that AI interpolates our life makes determinations that shape our access to resources to opportunity are made behind the scenes in ways we probably don't even know so I walk into a bank I said get me a loan they say no can do I have no idea that there's a system in back probably powered by some Microsoft API that determined based on scraped social media I wasn't you know credit worthy right I'm never going to know that there's no you know mechanism for me to know this so you know I think there's a lot of ways we could change that but the way you change that is you look at who's controlling it who's benefiting it from it who's being harmed from it and then you amplify the demands of those who are being harmed so I'm not you know I've been at the table for like 15 years 20 years I've been at the table being at the table with no power is nothing like flip the table who are we going to listen to who's being harmed right now those are the writers those are you know the workers those are the people who are going to be sort of you know killed in an autonomous driving crash or you know an autonomous submarine or whatever it is right because these standards have been whittled down and because the interests of these large companies have been privileged over the interests of you know larger populations are you are you seeing within companies right now that as people who who you know as you say have a seat at the table as they speak up about their ethical concerns that the the AI rush to Market has been silencing them has made it harder for them to to speak out yes absolutely I mean that's what we've seen in our reporting as well there's been a there was a paper published by Santa Ali and a few people last week at the fact conference which is specifically on this on the organizational dynamics of Ethics owners within companies basically they found these people get ignored they get sidelined they are provisionally at a table but then get completely ignored Meredith and I both worked at Google and and don't work there anymore and both don't work there anymore for a reason um because there is a limited amount of power that can be given there and there's an easy way in which labor of really well-meaning people does get co-opted um to kind of give a veneer around it um does this transition to you know efficiency like cost cutting does that impact the the voice of people who are trying to I mean it does I mean at Google I know there was a I mean that in terms of thinking about in large language models some reporting I forgot exactly it might have been from y'all but there was a code read on large language models as barred was trying to come catch up with chat gbt any kind of standard ethics reviews which I will tell you were very low to start with we're completely sidelined in in favor of getting the stuff out the door so any kind of attention to be done and I want to underline what Meredith is saying needs to be thought of at the collective level individual actions from Individual ICS or even kind of low-level managers firms are going to be very difficult as a means to get there thinking about what Collective Act action can mean whether that means with collectives or workers or with collectives of consumers even something needs to change for these things to improve for the better and for the social good Sabrina when you're working with company I know we've talked about this but you feel like if there's not a person who's accountable for ethics then they're you know no one's accountable but that person might also not have trouble speaking up so how do you how do companies balance that how do people who want those jobs balance that where they want to be able to have an impact but they don't want to be like the person who comes into the very end when the product's about to launch and say hey you can't launch that and they're like okay yeah go away like we're launching this thing and I think a lot of that depends upon the leadership and the company values to be honest and I do agree with Alex that we've seen instance after instance in the past year of responsible AI teams being let go so a question that we ask of the organizations we work with isra you know does that mean that you're Distributing responsibility within your different teams but who is accountable right so one of the things that on the policy side as well as on the company side that we've been pushing for is disclosures around investment in AI safety and governance in terms of how many people do you actually have working on this problem because this can't be sideline this can't be like oh there's a responsible AI team but it's embedded within all the different parts of the organization so what we are seeing again unfortunately not enough but at least in the AI first ethics forward companies is creation of specific roles who are made accountable for AI governance as well as oversight of the applications but you know we need more action there yeah I I mean I do I do feel like there's it is tough like when we talk to those people who have those jobs like they they do have trouble um being heard in these organizations um any parting thoughts like that you can we we only have a few seconds left but you know as people come away from we've heard we've heard Sam Altman we've heard stability we've heard from all these leaders you know what can people also take away that they can change about what they're doing every day yeah um I mean I wanna I wanna make one point quickly and this is sort of to tie the issues of privacy and AI more tightly together um like why is the president of signal up here talking about AI beside the fact that I did a lot of scholarly work on it right because AI is a surveillance technology it requires surveillance in the form of these massive data sets that entrench and expand the need for more and more data more and more intimate collection the solution to everything is more data more knowledge pooled in the hands of these companies but then these systems are also deployed as surveillance devices and I think it's really important to recognize that it doesn't matter whether a an output from an AI system is developed through you know sort of produced through some probabilistic statistical guesstimate or whether it's you know data from a cell tower that's triangulating my location that data becomes data about me it doesn't need to be correct it doesn't need to be sort of reflective of who I am or where I am but it has power over my life that is significant and that power is being pulled in the hands of these companies so you know when I think about these like the the Venn diagram of AI concerns and privacy concerns is a circle and there is a world where you know signal and other legitimate privacy preserving Technologies persevere where that becomes an increasing Norm as people's discomfort with this concentration of power and surveillance increases and there's a world that where we continue on the hype-filled road toward AI where that power is entrenched and naturalized under the guise of intelligence and we are you know surveilled to the point where we have very very little agency over our individual and Collective lives so I think this this concern is existential and it's much bigger than the sort of AI framing that it's often given thank you yeah I think uh you know at for freedom and what we are focused on we hear all these complexities of solving different kinds of risks solving different kinds of risk especially in different AI contacts so as a solution focused company we are focused on really defining those guardrails for these AI systems which are Super complex with problem sets as have already been indicated uh here on this panel so uh you know our Focus right now is on making sure one we are taking in standards that are emerging codifying them as guardrails taking in regulations that are coming and codifying them as guardrails but also informing what is good regulation and policy look like because as was mentioned we need all voices on that table it can't be just either the most powerful companies or the most fastest growing companies it really needs a collective action and that's what we are focused on Alex we've heard a lot from the very powerful and and today itself this is a great example and I'd just end by saying listen to the people who are most affected by this listen to data workers data laborers to thousands of people who work on mechanical Turf for Sama um listen to people whose livelihoods are being decimated whether that's writers in Hollywood or artists who are having their Works sucked up by stability and by Dolly to take away their livelihoods conduct auctions that completely go ahead and infringe on the exact same markets that sellers are trying to enter listen to the staff of the national eating disorder Association whose entire staff was cut out by it and replaced by a chatbot who then told people to resume their disordered eating habits listen to these people who are at the front lines key them and those are the people that need to be at the table thank you all thank you for all your insights [Music] please welcome to the stage rocket lab a CEO Peter Beck with Bloomberg's Ashley Vance [Music] foreign thank you Peter for joining us this is sort of a victory of sorts for me already a few years ago I wrote a book about Elon Musk and he didn't talk to me for a long time after I wrote the book I've just written a book about you and here you are still talking to me yeah maybe I was it was too nice I like it that you spent so much time with me and never figured me out at the end of it I tried I tried maybe we will figure you out today um you know while I was doing this book I mean I I researched I I spent Five Years on it hanging out with you a number of space startups around the world uh dug into the history of the field as well you know if you look over the last 20 years there's been probably about 12 legitimate rocket startups of some kind SpaceX is launching about every three days you guys have launched dozens of rockets you're up to about twice a week if you want to after that the number tails off very quickly some people have done one or two and then and then really had fits and starts um I mean it's amazing because you know there's there's Veterans of space programs that these other companies what is it that you and SpaceX seem to have figured out that this entire rest of the industry can't can't seem to get uh this typical question I mean I think and it's in a simplest form it's execution um you know we're we don't we don't tend to make a big Fanfare we're kind of just fly under the radar and just just keep launching rockets and execute and I think the space industry the great thing about the space industry is also the curse of the space industry the great thing about a space industry is I can sit on a stage here and say Ashley uh I'm gonna go to Mars or pick an even a more absurd destination I'm going to go to Jupiter in 2030 and everybody go yep cool you're going to Jupiter in 2030. no other industry can you say such absurd things and have people get so excited and rally in behind you yeah and so that's the great thing about the space industry because it really promotes you know far Big Dreams and and big execution but the challenge with it is is that um the space industry has historically been pretty shy on execution so you can you can say these wonderful things and everybody doesn't laugh you out of the room but at the end of the day um after you say those things there's a kind of to your point there's a big gap between um those things being said and execution so yeah well yes and I just I just always keep feeling like you and SpaceX rocket lab and SpaceX have just have I mean you could say execution it's amazing to me to watch people who've done this before still struggle like on the one hand it's rocket science we know this is hard on the other hand um rocket lab you had a group of 20-somethings there really had never built a rocket before you did not go to college for this you were designing dishwashers at one point um you know that's totally similar though but I mean you guys have clearly figured something out that that just got all that right and it's still sort of a mystery to me yeah well I think I think it's um building the right team setting the right vision building the right business around it being being kind of very deliberate about how you build your company as well as building the rocket and I'm sure there's a little bit of luck thrown in there too but at the end of the day I've generally found if you say to somebody you know we have a motto at rocker lab do what you say you're going to do and everybody gets measured against that and generally if you say that I'm going to go and do something and then you actually go and do it that builds good trust and if you continue to to do that all the way through then you build a good company you you know since I've known you you you're an engineer at heart you're very Hands-On you build a lot of your current Workhorse the electron rocket which is a bit smaller in in New Zealand where the company was started you're now building this larger rocket called Neutron in the United States and will launch it from the United States you're really the only commercial rocket company that I can think of that's that's spread across two continents you were this very Hands-On guy I mean you know I'm just curious how you're adjusting and evolving as as now it seems like your attention is split um you're geographically split you probably don't get to actually wrench on things as much as you like to yeah it's it's it's a good challenge and you can throw into that you know we win in a quad four different companies so you know rocket lab Rising those four companies is a huge amount of work but I think um as long as as long as the the thesis and the roles are there and people follow the rules and when I say the rules I mean like the culture of the company um then uh you know you don't you don't necessarily need to be the guy that that screws that rocket engine to the back of the of the launch vehicle provided you know the guy who is actually screwing the rocket engine to the back of the launch vehicle understands the company thesis and understands you know all of the cultural aspects that make sure that that actually works so no it's definitely more challenging to spend more time in a plane than ever but it's it's pretty fun because you get to you know we talk a lot about Rockets but two-thirds of our businesses building spacecraft yeah so we get to touch some really really cool stuff so I think about this you could you know far more about this so please correct me if I'm wrong uh you know I I just think about commercial space right now we have we've got a lot of Rocket companies the cost of launch has come down we're launching more often we have Myriad more satellite companies putting up giant constellations it reminds me so much of like 1996 consumer internet companies laying fiber building data centers making this big gamble that's something incredible was going to happen on the internet I feel like some things were obvious that there would be businesses that would work on the internet most of them it was we didn't really know where this would go in Space the first big businesses so far have been Communications satellites and imaging satellites yep and this is like the entire premise so far of like what this is is hanging on to a large degree um you know I'm just so curious about is that do you see that as being enough for the next 10 15 years do you think something else has to come along and you know what might those things yeah yeah yeah yeah well I think about this a lot because um you know there's always the the promise of the industry and and all the market studies that predict you know depending on which Market study you can pick up between one and two trillion dollars is like a factor of area of 100 um of how large the market will be in 2030. but I think some of the the key factors for me that are that are more more confident than ever I you're seeing like real fundamental use cases from really large companies I mean obviously uh you know elon's got starlink and that's kind of proving its worth uh Amazon I've got Kuiper which is kind of the equivalent um you've seen now uh um you know apple with their e91 service uh Voyage into space and that there's there's enough kind of real use cases from real companies that um it's it's kind of a little bit obvious now that that is going to proliferate um but all that stuff is really Communications at its core I mean do you think so for people who don't know I mean there's you know we went from 2 500 satellites like three years ago in low low earth orbit to about 10 000 today we've been on this suddenly exponential curve after it had been like this for for 50 years huge chunk of that is communication satellites I just always sort of think I could see the near term but but like does that stuff make money and then what comes next otherwise the air starts to come out of the room pretty quick yeah and I think I think I think that's a fair call and and um in in the last I would say 10 years you've seen a tremendous amount of venture capital flow into various space business models and and some some have been pretty successful in others you know not so successful but I think with any new frontier there is a certain amount of throw in the mud at the wall and seeing what what sticks yeah and and you know we went through that process along for a long time and like I say now you've got like Amazon building a hugely large constellation to service their customers and yeah it you can kind of loosely characterize it as comms but I mean Amazon actually have a purpose it's not it's not just to sell internet to people it's like it drives their business model and actually improves their business business model that's why they're doing it so um in space often people develop cool stuff and then try and find a market for it and um I think with the version of that is happening where people actually have real business needs at scale that that drive um drive people putting infrastructure in orbit which is what we need and the US government is the same you know if you look at the SDA programs the the whole move away from one or two big geostationary assets into a totally proliferated low earth orbit um it just changes changes again do you think I mean some people Beyond Communications they talk about manufacturing you just did a really interesting thing where you partnered with this company called varda that's making a bioreactor a pharmaceutical Factory in orbit that went on a SpaceX rocket I mean it was this fascinating thing of like three commercial space companies um two which are kind of Quasi competitors still pushing this thing forward so that that's manufacturing this idea that you can make chemicals in molecules in space that are different from Earth um there's a talk about you know moving data centers up into orbits and and reducing pollution on Earth just having them be solar powered do any of these applications jump out to you as the most likely or yeah I mean I'm not so sure that um launching data centers into orbit is better for the environment than keeping them on the ground um but uh you know an invador sense um it's it's just physics right and chemistry there's a fundamental if you're in a zero-g environment you know Crystal proteins grow differently and in the search for for kind of new and more exotic things that's a unshackling you know that production process from gravity is pretty game changing um and you know at the moment it's really only been until now that you can do that as a startup at any kind of level of scale prior to you know even 10 years ago you just wouldn't do that 100 million dollars just to yeah yeah just to try like you know for some tens of millions of dollars and I know that sounds a lot of money in some senses but for some tens of millions of dollars you can have a crack at a really big thing um if we could just pull up a slide for a second we're we pulled the audience before this I found this fascinating I just I'm not trying to Hawk my book but I wrote a book that's kind of the opposite of the results of this this poll I mean to me the most interesting you know the most activity the most money is not tourism it's not Mars it's in low earth orbit where the number of satellites um is increasing exponentially yeah so I'm just kind of curious if if you uh I mean this is in our lifetime to make the most progress we do you well obviously I think you should send that to me particularly maybe I should get working on the neutron uh capsule yeah well clearly I'm missing a trick yeah um but you you've never been interested as far as I know in in really human space travel no I mean I I think that that is just it's a whole other level and I I admire astronauts incredibly because um you know I have all the knowledge but none of the courage to ever stand on foot of a rocket um and and you know to be able to to sit on a rocket and dislocate yourself yourself from all of that risk is just it's a it's a special superpower to be able to do that what do you Mega what do you make of that though that the public thinks tourism you know is where this is is heading I think as opposed to sort of industry and business it's it's a masterful piece of marketing from Virgin Galactic yeah uh but I know it's more seriously I think I think a lot of people kind of like the idea of going to space and human space flight is always been the draw card right I mean it is it is a totally different thing to watch a rocket going up to watch a rocket going up with a human on board as is orders of magnitude different and that's that's the kind of the romance of space and a lot of sense so it's not totally surprising that that everybody wants to have their trip so historically you in SpaceX have been quite different SpaceX makes large Rockets you you made a smaller rocket SpaceX does do humans you guys have not focused on that you know moving forward you're making this rocket called Neutron that is going to compete quite directly with spacex's falcon 9. at the same time SpaceX is making a even larger rocket called Starship um you know dealing with Elon competing with Elon is comes with his with its challenges yeah I'm just very curious if you see SpaceX moving forward now as your most direct competitor and and how you keep Pace with this company that seems to have somewhat of a head start yeah I mean look we in in some respects a lot a lot of people want want to kind of play their their card but I guess we we're on our own our own mission our own journey and and at the end of the day everybody focuses on the rocket like it's the exciting Red Stick roaring in the sky the reality is I'm trying to build a big like long-lasting durable space company and I think the space companies of the future are going to have their own rocket they're going to be able to build their own satellite and they'll have an application or a series of applications or infrastructure in orbit and I think that's that's the in-game here is that if you if you have your own rocket and you have you can build your own spacecraft then you can do things in orbit that nobody else can do so in in that sense you know um SpaceX is has kind of um you know focused in on internet and space and in you know a moving quickly to try and prove that business model is going to be successful or not but I think um you know ultimately there's going to be a number of those and the companies that can go to orbit at will um are the ones that are going to win so you and I know you get asked this question a lot I'm just curious now we've just seen virgin orbit go go bankrupt recently you bought some of their peace parts I mean you mentioned you think there'll be a number of these companies you're talking about like this you know historically we've only had rocket companies we've only had satellite companies you've been a software you're talking about something much bigger than that um you know how many players are there like that today will win the Future No in the future to support if if you buy into this massive increase of satellites to support all that um well I mean hopefully there'll be two um but do you think that's how do you think this is like a two two company race or it's more than that look I think I think it'll be more than that but I don't think it's going to be 10 I think it'll be relatively small because um the reality is that um launching a rocket and building a rocket and going to orbit is just an assault on physics and it's really difficult to do and it doesn't really matter um you know you can have better compute and you can have better you can have ai you can have all the rest of it at the end of the day it's it's 1.1 to 1.2 times safety factor or margin on every single thing in the vehicle and um you know materials if you look at a rocket engine the combustion efficiency of a rocket engine hasn't really changed since 1962. did we just we just you know increase the pressure but the actual combustion efficiency hasn't changed so we kind of maxed out on chemical propulsion and on physics and you know materials and a long time ago so most of the stuff you see is kind of tweaks around the edges or um you know in in kind of uh elon's scale is is you just build bigger and bigger Rockets um so you know I think there's there's it's fundamentally always going to be super super difficult to do yeah just keeping an eye we're just about out of time um what is your next launch and you know when is it and what will you guys be doing um you know what I don't know and I think that's a that's the definition of success that I don't know no but um your rate is a degree it used to be there's this all or nothing yeah or nothing right uh I'm probably in the next I mean we're launching you know every couple of weeks in general so yeah probably in the next couple of weeks there'll be another another launch vehicle that's uh that's ready to go I don't know if he's telling me the truth that he doesn't know or if this is this is an indication of how far this business has come um thank you thank you so much for your time cheers [Applause] [Music] please welcome to the stage and Doral Industries founder Palmer lucky with Bloomberg's Emily Chang foreign [Music] thank you Palmer for being here thanks for having me I should say aloha ah thank you I actually want the story because I'm from Hawaii originally and I've never had the full story about the Aloha shirt shorts and normally it's flip-flops thing oh yeah but I'm going to an Airfield after this I need real shoes um no the story is pretty simple my uh my clothes growing up or mostly my dad's hand-me-downs as soon as I was big enough to fit into them and I went through puberty early and that was pretty fast and uh most of his hand-me-downs were Hawaiian shirts he worked at a car dealership my dad's car salesman and so he basically had a lot of uh you know slacks and business business uh you know business business dress shirts yeah and then whenever he was not wearing those at home he liked to wear Hawaiian shirts and I got all the hand-me-downs and then by the time I started Oculus I just kept doing what I'm doing because I didn't really think about it very hard and then by the time I tried to buy other clothes people started giving me a hard time about it because it turns out that your job your job as a Founder is partly to to actually do real work but then the other is you you have to be a figurehead of sorts and I realized that I had inadvertently created uh brand value in inconsistently wearing the same thing and so to this day my closet is about 70 Hawaiian shirts and then a few other shirts for business purposes all right well you're not allowed to ever wear anything else okay well I wear suits for Washington DC funerals and weddings all right good to know um now behind the Aloha Vibe a lot of people think of you as the guy who's building the virtual border wall which either makes them love you or hate you um let's talk about enduro's main mission and the products that you're actually building to achieve that because it's bigger than that well it's way bigger than that and I will say I actually don't think that many people think of us that way I mean people like to focus on the border work because it's politically controversial the reality is that we've actually done way more on that in this Administration than the past one so people try to tie that to being a trump thing the reality is everyone agrees that we need to know what's coming across the U.S border there are people who disagree on immigration policy but immigration policy is separate from awareness of what's coming across the border and Andrew makes technology that we use to track drug trafficking human trafficking arms and cash smuggling in both directions going across the border even the people who want open immigration unlimited immigration you can walk into the United States and instantly become a citizen there's nobody outside of a really radical Fringe that thinks that the right way to accomplish that is to allow the cartels to operate unimpeded and so people say it's controversial I would say the people who say it's controversial are people who have an interest in making it appear controversial there's actually very few people who agree with them on that but the main thing that we do is we're a defense Product Company so anderol is trying to be the world's next major defense contractor our primary product is a piece of AI software called lattice it Powers all of our hardware systems it ties together hundreds of systems that are made by other companies taking data from every sensor so that it can be a sensor for every person and for every weapon and for every effector of every other kind and you know our goal is that you have the best information possible when you're in any type of situation where lives are on the line you want to know where all the good guys are you want to know where all the bad guys are and you want to be extremely certain as to which is which and what the best way to respond is and we've built a lot of Hardware products on top of lattice but we have a lot more people working on software than Hardware so despite the appearance of a hardware company and I'm a hardware guy at the end of the day at the end of the day most of what we do is driven by software so let's talk about uh you raised more money than almost any other startup last year there's been this flood of VC Capital into defense Tech and I know you've said we're making defense sexy again Founders fund was one of your earliest investors Andreessen now we've seen Sequoia getting into defense like why is this happening now did it take a war because everyone is finally opening their eyes when we started and roll we struggled to raise any money and this was you know a guy who's just sold his last company for billions of dollars so it wasn't it wasn't that wasn't the issue but the responses we were met were met with from investors where somewhere kind of a mix between indifference and Scorn so on the different side people saying well we live at the end of History there's not going to be any more conflict and are not economic entanglement precludes any kind of large-scale warfare in the future and so what you're doing is just a waste of time and so I don't care about it the other side is people saying any use of force is wrong and what you're doing is evil and so I won't be involved uh and I think that what the reason that you've seen things shift over the last few years has been a recognition that we don't live at the end of history there are still people in the world who want to use large-scale violence to achieve their aims there are unfortunately countries that have a reasonable position that that is the only way that they are going to be able to continue to expand and to grow per their games yeah there's there was a lot of belief years ago that China was going to westernize that they were going to adopt more of the principles of the West and that they were going to be a good partner going into the future and I think that was tied to so many tech companies making the bet that they would be allowed into China that they would be able to make that into a market for them today the equation has shifted I think a lot of the attitude shift has been driven Maybe by something a little more cynical than realizing that war is possible as Russia has shown it's driven by the fact that VCS realize they're not going to be able to make money in China and so they're getting out you have a lot of tech companies that are realizing that China is never going to be a big market for them they realize that they're locked out and not only are they locked out of China China's going to come and eat their lunch and so there's this new found wave of patriotism of dubious dubious Source but I'll take what I can get we're going to come back to China in a moment but first I do want to talk about the politics because so much has been made of you know Peter thiel's investment in Android Peter thiel's connection to Trump is this a partisan effort or are you trying to cross the aisle with this technology I mean the National Defense authorization Act is the only Bill that's passed every single year since it started being created it's about as bipartisan as gets there's very few people who think that it's better for China to have better weapons in the United States and it's better for Russia to have better weapons than than our European allies it's it's it is really a quite bipartisan issue and I will note you know I don't want to don't want to be be too mean but one of the reasons that people have tried to turn me into a partisan figure is because it's really good for clicks the reality is I spend maybe I don't know one percent of my time on politics I said 99 on Tech but that is not what people want to focus on and a lot of it's also not true I mean heck one of the moderators on your previous panels was on TV spreading all kinds of lies about majoring the election year she was saying that I was funding uh fake news and paying people to spread it she was on TV saying that I was fighting alt-right memes and teams of people to start on the internet and said the real reason I was fired from Oculus is because I wasn't even involved in the day-to-day in my business anymore I mean just just ideological hit squad on me spreading hang on let me finish you have to let her check that but I will let you finish nobody disagrees on these things it's not a matter of opinion it was just a fabricated story that Outlets including Bloomberg picked up ran with and performed a character assassination on me and have tried to turn me into a political figure because that's what they want to do to me people do who spend far more on Politics on the other side of the aisle would never even be asked the question you're asking me would you ever have Zuckerberg up here and say hey you you donated a lot of money to politics I mean you're a pretty political figure I mean isn't your company actually really partisan you wouldn't even dream of doing it the reality is it's because it's okay to attack one side for being political and not the other that the question is even being asked and uh you know I understand that you have to bring it up because that's unfortunately the hell I live in but it's something that I'm still going to get frustrated with I might ask Zuckerberg there's a lot of controversy about tech companies working with the US government you know we've seen employees protesting at Google sure for work with the Pentagon protesting at Microsoft for work with ice you have really strong opinions about this yep you think Silicon Valley should be working with the U.S government absolutely I mean I think that we live in a really dangerous time and I have thought this for years this is not a new opinion that I've developed in the wake of the Ukraine war all of a sudden I'd found a conscience I've been saying this consistently for a long time since before I even started Andrew we live in the first period in U.S history where our best most Innovative tech companies with the largest pools of talent in our country refused to work with the military we've never been in a situation like that before and people don't understand how dangerous that is when you think about the global competition not just militarily but economically and what that means imagine if during the World War II build up if our biggest Tech Powerhouse is like Westinghouse or RCA or General Electric had said you know what I'm not sure that we really should be taking sides I don't want my military my tech to be used for military purposes I think that Imperial Japan is a huge Revenue new opportunity for our shareholders and I really think we need to not take sides in this I mean that is the situation we're in today where Tech invest investors and tech companies are refusing to work with the dod not because of Any ethical qualms I think that's a smoke screen it's primarily been driven by a desire to work with our largest strategic adversary and make a lot of money doing it but these Google employees for example signing this open letter saying that they don't want Google to work the dod they made a great smoke screen you know they can't go out and say we're going to refuse to work with the military because we are sellouts to China but what they can say is oh we're just listening to our employees well I mean let's look at the numbers you had 3 000 people signing that open letter that represents I think just under two percent of the Google Workforce Now does that mean that 98 of Google employees want their Tech use for the military no not necessarily but it means that 98 didn't care enough to click a one-click survey but we're already logged in with their employee credentials on I mean like I think it's a tiny radical minority that was very loud about this and I think that if we are going to persist and if we are going to protect our allies we cannot afford to have our most Innovative companies divorced from the organizations that are responsible for keeping those companies viable do you do work with across the U.S no tons of warp into other countries we do a lot of work with the United Kingdom we've done a lot of work with Australia I mean at the end of the day and in case your follow-up question is you know which countries would you work with work and not work with at the end of the day that's determined by U.S policy and uh you know if the United States wants us to work with the UK which is a strong strategic partner then we're going to work with them if they tell us to work with an ally like Australia then we're going to work with them um and uh if I I get people sometimes ask me oh but but would you draw what's your Line in the Sand would you sell to North Korea would you sell to China and the answer is doesn't matter I'd go to prison if I did that I don't even have to think about it and I do actually have opinions on it but the right thing for me to do is a guy who is working really at the behest of democratically elected leaders is not for me to say that I'm the guy who decides who gets our technology or who or how it gets used that should be decided not by corporate Executives but by elected officials who are actually beholden to power we did do a poll about China from our audience where they think the biggest Tech threat in China is looks like Ai and Chip making pretty uh pretty tight up there companies like apple companies like Google companies like Tesla have deep chives deep ties to China are these ties appropriate I don't know if I would say appropriate so much as existentially crippling uh here's another way to say well look let's I mean let's let's talk about a really big problem that's an elephant in the room that doesn't get talked about nearly enough the analysts the financial weenies they look at these companies and they try to come up with what the risks are oh man are rising interest rates going to hurt their sales could it be that they're not able to capitalize this plant that's over here but people don't like to talk about the real risk the existential risk the risk where Taiwan is taken by China and they either fully deprive off deprive us of advanced capabilities that we would certainly deprive them of in any kind of wartime scenario or alternatively that they unilaterally act to our largest companies think how much trouble Apple would be in if China decided they wanted Apple to be in trouble almost all their manufacturing is there they cannot exist as a company without that you have a nearly three trillion dollar company the biggest Powerhouse of economic value in the entire United States totally behold into the whims of one person in China that's crazy that's unprecedented but people don't talk about it including Apple because the altern if it happens it it's it's too Unthinkable it's a risk you can't even talk about you can't even discuss this risk rationally because it's so extraordinarily bad of an outcome and so instead what do people do they say well I think that we do actually need to stay coupled to China collaboration is really important and shouldn't we all just get along they don't have a choice they made their choice years or decades ago and now they have to pretend that they made the right one anyway yes I have strong I have strong opinions on this the the problem fundamentally is [Applause] the right time for us to realize this danger and this risk was when we allowed China to join the World Trade Organization we had this misguided idea that we were going to westernize them and that they were working for us it turns out that we're working for them and the second best time to solve that is now so let's talk about Tick Tock then for a second because something else you have strong opinions on I know Tick Tock is banned from Enduro employees phones why do you think Tick Tock is such a threat and what do you think that the US government should do about it well I mean there's a few sides here so the United States government recently passed a piece of legislation that prohibits the installation or use of tick tock on government devices and also on the devices of government contractors meaning if you build weapon systems you're not allowed to have the Chinese spyware app on your phone seems pretty reasonable right all right and people say oh but but they said really really nicely that they're never going to send their information to China well guess what Chinese law begs to differ the Chinese Communist party is literally on the board of directors of bite dance they literally have a financial stake in the company the laws of China are extremely clear them and their families are at risk if they dared to not do what the government said or to even if they were even to tell anybody about it now people can say Palmer that's unfair in the United States you can get a court order to get information too yes but you can't tell the company that they're not allowed to even talk about it and that they have to lie continuously about it that nor are they going to imprison you and your family if you do do something about it um you're probably just going to get a book deal so and that's the difference you know the the the the book deal versus prison dichotomy between China and the United States uh I actually think the United States should have gone slightly further on this one of the reasons that we didn't ban Tick Tock from uh from our employees personal devices earlier as a security risk is because it's actually a legal Minefield you can't really quite get away with that in um in in modern times for for good reason I think they should have gone further and said you know what we are going to formally declare that Tick Tock and bite dance applications and really any application that is controlled directly by the Chinese Communist party is a security risk we're not saying you have to not allow it but you you should be allowed to ban it if you want to in other words let's say that you're not a company that's directly covered like we are by uh by by this piece of legislation imagine if we're something that's adjacent like a company that does accounting for weapons companies they're technically not covered I wish our government would go and say you know what we're formally declaring that Tick Tock is a security risk and that any company that believes it is in the National interest to ban it from devices that have access to their data it is not at some kind of legal risk from Tick Tock or their employees saying hey that's not fair I really like funny videos on my lunch break you did sell your first company to Facebook I did you did what do you think about what's going on over there oh man well you look you know everybody can always speak everyone who sells their company always likes to come back later and say if I were there things would be better and things would be different um you know I I I think that there were I think that they're not they've not made the best moves that they could have made over the last two years you're being remarkably diplomatic when you weren't so much but here but but here but here's why it's because I'm not a journalist so I'm not by the way I actually was I was I was a journalism major at Cal State Long Beach I was the online editor the daily 49er which is one of the largest student papers in the country yeah did it get to know little yeah who knew um that's why I'm so butt hurt about bad journalism but the problem is that uh there are what was I even saying were you talking about Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg and what he's doing right and wrong and what they're doing right now I mean the reason I'm so diplomatic is because at the end of the day I'm still a VR guy I want VR to succeed and me going out there and lighting everyone on fire for every mistake they make in trying to make VR happen is not going to make virtual reality more successful and that's what I'm saying I'm I'm not unbiased I'm allowed to be a VR partisan I'm allowed to only say things that I think will cause virtual reality to become a mainstream technology faster and in my estimation uh going out and lighting the people who took my company stabbed me in the back and threw me out the back door it's not going to be good for VR so I'm not going to do it and look for whatever differences I might have with them they are one of the companies that has put more into VR than anybody in the world and I don't want them to stop doing that they are one of the one of the few companies in the world that truly believes in VR still you seem to be a fan of thirty five hundred dollars I mean I would say that that kind of isn't the point so for for many years I've said that virtually it's going to be a thing anyway at some point but not at 3 500 I mean I've said for many years that the virtual reality has to become something that everybody wants before it can become something that everyone can afford you can't reverse those two steps and expect mainstream acceptance I wrote a blog post on my blog homerlucky.com the number one Parma lucky blog on the internet uh called called free isn't cheap enough and in it I argued that current VR technology as it existed a couple years ago when I wrote it was so limited that even if you gave it away for free to every American most people would not continue to use it due to the technological limitations ergonomic limitations content limitations and if that's the case if they wouldn't use it even if it was free then clearly cost is not the problem and reducing cost is not what gets you to mainstream acceptance apple is taking the other approach they are spending an enormous amount of money to drag what should exist a few years in the future and drag it into the present and it's very expensive to do engineering that way what they are doing is seeing if they can make it something everybody wants if they can make it something everybody wants then it will certainly be something that everybody will buy once it's a thousand dollars and there's nothing that they're doing that is fundamentally expensive they everything they're doing can easily be costed down using conventional manufacturing techniques in the future and I think that that's where that's going all right we have a question from the audience all right not a journalist from the audience so I'm going to let you take a swing at it how do you reconcile the idea of having a full-blown surveillance regime and individual liberty well I am I am a Libertarian and I'm not a fan of full-blown surveillance regime I would say that's also not what we're building I mean you'll know we're not building tools that are used to surveil masses of American civilians we're not hoovering up their personal data we're not hoovering up stuff and marketing to them like I don't fall into that people say oh but you're a surveillance company you make these sensors that detect Vehicles animals drones Etc to which I say you know what there are certain places where you do need surveillance if you have a military base that is constantly under threat of attack you need surveillance and I don't feel bad about that if you have a border where there are people who are coming into the United States and selling us massive quantities of uh of of fentanyl contaminated marijuana if they're coming in here and selling people into sex slavery I don't really mind watching that one little strip and saying you know what uh people who go from that side to this side or this side to that side and they're doing it illegally that's something that we should be aware of I I even as a Libertarian I think I'm fine with that there's no part of libertarian ideals it says that people are not allowed to voluntarily come together and protect themselves from True existential threat and nobody's gonna say oh man but you know a real libertarian would just leave the gates open on their military base uh I'm I'm I'm I'm a compromised libertarian as as most practical Libertarians are one more from our audience would you oppose withholding technology to an authoritarian regime um um I would oppose it I think I kind of tried to cover this a little bit earlier it isn't up to me and it shouldn't be up to me uh it should be up to the United States government I'll I'll give I'll give an example that is not me just to make this point there were a lot of people who were really upset about the United States selling certain security systems to Turkey which remember is a NATO Ally on paper also an authoritarian regime and people were very upset about they said why are we selling these security systems why would we do that that doesn't make any sense and is does this mean the United States is supporting authoritarianism and what came out later is the reason that we were doing this is because the United States was temporarily basing a bunch of nuclear-armed aircraft at their Airfield secretly now you could say that there's some moral High Ground in not putting better security on the base where we're going to be having our own nuclear weapons or perhaps you could say we shouldn't even have aircraft there in the first place but that decision shouldn't be up to me I shouldn't sit here unaware of those aircraft unaware of those weapons unaware of the bigger picture and also divorced from all the politicians who have been at the end they elected to make those decisions I should not sit here as a corporate executive and say I will de facto be the unit unilateral controller of U.S foreign policy I the corporate executive get to decide who we are allowed to work with and who we are not because that is a very dangerous path that puts power in the hands of people that should not have that power that should be in the hands of people that you can uh that you can elect a new leader to replace all right as much as I could sit here forever and listen to this I'm getting the flashing please stop it's time for a networking break uh last question from me you sold a company once what's your plan for Enduro would you sell it again do you want to go public where do you want to take the business the most likely outcome is that we become a publicly traded company there's a lot of reasons for that the government really likes to work with public companies where they don't have to worry if they're cooking their books you've got all the Wall Street breathing down your neck trying to find out if you're lying to them and if they should short sell you after of course uh going on TV and telling everybody that uh that you're a terrible company uh and I I think that that's a reasonable a reasonable thing it's also not really likely that we would be a good fit for any of the other defense contracts I mean we're defense Product Company we use our own money to decide what to build how to build it when it's done and then we sell it to the government we're building the tools that we think are maybe not the best way to make money but they're the best way to equip Partners like Ukraine like Taiwan with tools that they can use on day one day 10 day 100 day one thousand of a potential conflict with the expansionist dictatorships that threaten them and we get to make that decision because we're our own we're our own company and we're not a Cost Plus contractor that has to go after certain structures of contracts because it's the only way that they can make money and so I I I think it's really unlikely that I'm gonna I'm gonna sell out to somebody again I I did it before I've generally made a policy of trying to not make the same mistake twice all right Palmer lucky everyone [Applause] okay take a deep breath after that one we do have a networking break go get a glass of water and be back at 3 15 Sharp thank you [Music] hi I'm Emily Chang and on my new show the circuit I'll be talking with the big names in Tech culture and Innovation think of the growth of your company you have to grow faster there's a lot of little tricks here this show is a conversation about success about failure about passion We are following the biggest stories of the day and the people shaping tomorrow and asking what's next this is a way to change culture tune into the circuit only on Bloom of Originals let's go [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] foreign [Music] thank you [Music] don't do anything [Music] thank you [Music] hahaha [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] please take your seats the program will begin in five minutes please take your seats the program will begin in five minutes [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] take your seats the program is about to begin the program is about to begin [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] foreign [Music] will begin now thank you [Music] please welcome to the stage autonomous CEO Joseph Bradley [Music] are you it's a great opportunity to talk to you today when you think about what has been said a lot has been talked about how do we deal with uncertainty and on a personal level I can tell you this is a challenge three months ago I was diagnosed with stage three colon cancer and as I'm going through chemotherapy you're looking for certainty uncertainty has been found in many worlds in many areas through technology technology has been that Source we look for certainty and you think about covid what you saw is it pushed us to this notion that the world we can't touch we can't feel so therefore must be digital and then covet goes away and that pendulum swing to the other side and it was about well no no now we got to go back to being the physical world and we talked about and debated this notion of the metaverse maybe it's a gaming platform no no no it's much more of a social platform or it's more of a digital twin environment well I'm here to tell you that is the wrong question it's a false dilemma I call it the singular reality you see it's not about living in the digital world it's not about living in the physical world it's just simply about living and when we think about technologists and what we're doing and how we appraise this topic much of the day has been around the technology itself well I'm here to tell you that we need to change that conversation that conversation is about you as technologists you as Leaders coming up and embracing the transformational challenge that you have to achieve today we fundamentally live in a different world and that world requires us as Leaders to embrace three basic core fundamental truths that ultimately will change how we shape how we View and how we interact with generative Ai and the various Technologies so in this notion of genitive AI and you talk about the ability to gather data one of the things that it's so important for you to embrace is the notion between diversity on the one hand and inclusion on the other are they the same no they're not you see diversity is the potential to create value inclusion is the realization of value by driving full participation and that full participation that that is the secret weapon of genitalia AI that is what you need to power and make this go you need full participation so if you believe in that then therefore here comes the Mind shift you see the physical world by definition is limited it's limited to how many people can fit in a city it's limited to how many people can fit in the room you will never achieve the level of inclusion that you need to if you simply talk about the physical world so you have to change your mindset the physical world becomes an add-on to the digital the physical world becomes an add-on to the digital okay let's talk about the second paradigm shift you see algorithms are great they're awesome but they optimize for efficiency is that life if I ask you what's your purpose in life you say to make money and breathe that's a problem well that's algorithms right they optimize for efficiency you have to have the Mind shift change and say no we are here to optimize and solve for the happiness paradigm happiness Paradigm says it is about life it is about you it's about people great story happened in the Dutch supermarket basically they use all these great algorithms and they said you know what we can make this Supermarket far more efficient you guys have seen those checkout lines we go in self-checkout right no problem but they uncovered that when you talk to their senior citizen Workforce they said you know what it's abnormally depressed why is that because they were losing connection with people and where do they go to find that connection with people when they go to the supermarket but what do we do as technologists get you in and get you out so to allow them to connect with people they created a slow checkout line a line where they can get an opportunity to engage with people to learn what's happening how you doing what's going on in your life to connect with one another that is solving for the happiness paradigm think about that as you think about how you want to use generative Ai and how you want to use all the various Technologies Machine Vision Quantum Computing it's not solely about efficiency okay this is probably the most disruptive of all the things we're going to talk about today you see we live in a world right now where all the answers are known therefore value is in understanding what question to ask rise of the humanities man you know all those kids you told stem was the only way you told them no no stop studying English stop studying sociology you told them learn to code that's what you told them get out of here learn the code learn the code learn the code uh oh what you got to do now it's not about learning the code learn to think learn to think because now what you have is you have an ability where a young woman or a young man in any part of the world with a cell phone in their hand is now on the same Level Playing Field as one of the many Tech Giants in other words if you can think it you can create it if you can think it you can create it understand what that means that means everyone who went to NBA school you know the rules id8 build operate 20 of time you spend on 88 build and operate is 80 of the value not anymore building operate man that's gonna be done the human Centric side is on the 88 side that's where you get human centricity and this is extremely disruptive I love the debates is art art if it's created by a computer hmm you are talking about the wrong topic you are worried about the output of the process you should be talking about the input let me put you this way a young girl who has lost the use of her arms but in her heart and in her mind she believes she is an artist so she goes to that computer and she begins to talk she begins to speak and she creates art who says that's not art Oh you mean the guy you mean the person with the paintbrush needs to sell that painting that's not art no that's what they say right wrong question it's not about the output it is fundamentally about the input process that is the value that is human centricity that is where we can find the sources where we ultimately need to be and how we will ultimately Drive value as we move forward I will leave you um with this many many times in many many areas we talk about so many social issues around the world we talk about the need for equality we talk about the need to give every person a voice we talk about how similar the world can be in terms of Crisis and many many great leaders where we find ourselves right now in this moment in a position where many of these leaders would have never dreamed we would be where the ability to type in a few words into a search bar will be the greatest equalizer in modern day history thank you so much guys have a great evening thank you [Applause] [Music] when you think about the building blocks of the cogno city data is really core you get to decide which applications you want to use and what data you want to provide it is built fundamentally around you you smart City focuses on real-time information and cognitive City already knows that real time is too late it's about how do we take friction out of your life if we can find a place in the world where you can be the best of you that's what fuels me foreign conviction founder Sarah Goa and Runway co-founder and CEO crystal ball Valenzuela with Bloomberg's Luca Shaw [Music] hey everybody thanks for sticking around and thanks to both of you for for being here thanks for having us um I think I counted this as one of seven AI themed panels on the day this one we'll be talking about about media a subject of a lot of uh consternation at least in Los Angeles where I live um but I wanted to start because I feel like so much of the discussion around around AI is looking into the future and what will be and I wanted to kind of level set with where we are now so how is artificial intelligence being used in media today um and and what are some of the most interesting applications that you've already seen yeah I mean I I think we already interact with uh media that's AI driven every single day right I think the most popular example is going to be um recommendation Vengeance right everybody uses social media um that's entirely AI driven I think something else people probably don't realize is in your phone like helping you take a quality picture light adjustment color balance all of that is algorithm driven and so I there's a huge number of ways from visual effects uh to social media to your tooling that is already enhanced what I think is really exciting is like what is just coming online now but I'm sure we'll talk about it yeah I know just like emphasize that I think a lot of the media you consume now has been made or power or enabled but some sort of algorithm behind the scenes and so it's happening already and it'll continue to happen more as as the research continues to like improve um but again it's it's it's very early on on the journey mostly on the on the journey side of things yeah and when you say what's most exciting is what's what's about to happen what do you mean by that yeah well Chris should definitely talk about what's happening with Runway um maybe to use a like a uh a slightly narrower example than just generate any video um one thing that we're really excited about at conviction is what AI can do for creators in terms of modality and reach right you had how many people were like video creators or photographers before Instagram and Tick Tock right magnitudes fewer um and you can you know you can Define like artistic skill in all these things but um the tools definitely are democratizing when I think about what's going to happen from modality and reach perspectives like if you can take any text and make it human voice with companies like 11 or element or you can take that video and dub it in any language and extend your reach globally like I think there are a lot of things for creators to be really excited about where it's completely feasible in research as of this year I think for me I've been thinking a lot about how to understand what's going to happen next and um a great analogy of found is to think about really these models and the the capacity that we'll start to enable very soon as a new kind of camera right this is a device it's a system that will allow us to do things that were very hard to do or almost impossible to even imagine before right so imagine 150 years ago when when the camera was first invented and this firmness made possible are changed forever um stories we told each other change forever the Statics change media change industry changed and I think we're entering a phase where like we're starting to use and create a new kind of camera right but they come around its own doesn't do anything right you're not a photographer just because you're on a camera you're not a filmmaker just because you have a camera right and so if you think it from that perspective it's a tool and it's a tool that allows you to be very expressive and allows you to express and find new ways of of telling stories like the camera did um and so when I think about their work early we're early in understanding that it's going to happen there's a revolution that happened in the early 1900s when that camera became festival and I think we're entering in the kind of like a similar moment in time where something radically change something radically will change about the way we tell stories with the news with this new camera also what you know the movies that get put out three or five years from now how does that differ yeah um I think like the best movies are yet to be told are yet to be made right um and if you think about the history of like film it's a very linear story right you make a film you render the film today the domains and you distribute the film right we're gonna go from like render pixels which is what we do today to generated pixels right and the moment you can generate pixels then you don't have a specific linear narrative you can have multiple narratives and you can be in a movie and I can be in a movie and we all can be in a show right we can tell stories that are much more personalized and specific right the one thing that's hard to predict is we're in the I would say in the 1910s of the new camera right it's a silent camera it's very clunky doesn't work really that well so it's understanding how far and how much it will change it's still like very hard to predict um and so I don't know I don't have all the answers yet I'm trying to like work on it once once every time wouldn't you say I'm curious if you say any of us can be in in our own film I mean that's sort of what what YouTube has done in a lot of ways already right it is democratized uh and the creation of videos such that along with you know people are with smartphones and and cheap cameras pretty much anybody can shoot anything and they can upload it for everyone to see what is what is different in what you're talking about I think what's different now is that you don't still making films is expensive right and creating like high quality content it's it's requires understanding of The Craft of that camera in particular that's gotten to be not necessarily a cc as an algorithm that can allow you to render and create content in ways that perhaps are very prohibited before so for example there's this director film director who's been working with traditional film like tools for the last 10 15 years right and CGI as you can imagine is very expensive it's regards a lot of hard work right and shooting live action is also expensive right um and we gave him access to our new model it's a model that does video generation addition to different mechanisms of either input or attacks or images or video and he was able to render and synthesize a story a very surreal story it's a beautiful story I recommend you watching it that involves people in a room the room full of water then the same person in like the desert right and it works works really well critics like saw it and like praise it right it's really good now making that movie before Gen 2 which is the algorithm we created we have taken him like months on a large budget it took him a day and so that's from is the the change one of the ways I like to think about it is things like YouTube or Tick Tock they created distribution platforms and they sort of proved how compelling like your own Niche was like what Chris or Lucas or Sarah finds funny is very different right and so you can have production quality and scope go down dramatically as long as it's exactly what you as a person find entertaining or interesting or funny um and I think what we're going to see with this next generation of tools is like what if everybody can produce at you know approximately like today's Hollywood quality what if like real you know professional Studios can do that but at you know personalization scale for every person I think that is you know a really bright future for media I'll give you one more um really small example that's easy to picture um there's this expression that like everyone's born an artist until they forget how to be um I think every child every person is born a Storyteller and one of the ways that I really see this is I have young kids and we do story time every night and now we do Story Time with um image generation right and you know I think of Story Time as a kid as uh you know like maybe my favorite book was Matilda or Harry Potter or whatever the character was the way my kids do story time is like we're they're going to tell me the stories and the stories are about them in their movie with a three-headed unicorn that's a recurring character doing very specific things where they want to shape the narrative and the visuals and they'll tell me like no you need to impaint that and like change exactly how it's placed and so I think that this idea that people are going to want to direct more of their own media is actually very natural right the idea that you don't need to rely on Sony to make the next Spider-Man you can make your own at home in your own way well they'll want both right especially if the quality goes up do you think uh you know does the the potential democratization of a lot of these Technologies allowing people to you know make studio quality projects at home what risk does that pose to sort of professionals already in the industry today I um I'm not sure that there's a uh ceiling to how like the level of quality that people want in their entertainment if that makes sense right like I'm pretty sure the studios are going to figure out interesting things to do with their budget levels and a new set of tools right so I'm I'm expecting that you raise the floor and like everybody can create many uh different things but you know a Hollywood 10 years from now is just much better than Hollywood is today right yeah and also argue that it's it's going to be different and it's different right so you can have continue to have like Hollywood quality content at a scale that's different from what one single person like you can create in your house with your kids right and those both can live right it's like painting for years for one type of Storytelling the camera for leather another one but you still have both right it's not the replacement of the other right um that doesn't I'm just curious given that given how you both feel on this are you following the the labor Strife in in Hollywood at all because it feels like writers for example are very freaked out about the idea that Studios will just kind of train some kind of AI model to replace them and get their ideas there instead of them writing it themselves it sounds like you're you don't share that fear I mean first of all I have deep empathy for that I've started Runway while I was in art school and so if I want to build tools for artists right and I've always thought about it from from the perspective of building expressive controllable tools for making art right um yeah the one thing I think I've noticed is there's a lot of thoughts around AI that come from a place of not ever using a system right of generally video model or an image model um and I think the the reduction is view of thinking about AI as a language model I think we see that a lot of like Ai llms and like language models is doesn't like really allow us to understand the nuances of how the systems work in particular domains that are very different right so for a VFX artists for a visual artist or for a video editor helping them reduce 70 of their time their spending on something they don't want to do which is time consuming and expensive it's great it's phenomenal right it's super uberating and I think we're going to start to see more of that and sometimes perhaps it might be hard to understand those things I was talking to a friend of mine who is a producer for hit show and uh I asked him like what do you think is going to happen to the writers room The Writer's room is only 10 people right now and he's like well I think what's going to happen is it goes down to like the the two people that are show Runners today and we do four more shows right um and I I think that's more likely his rationale just being someone who's actually thinking through like the labor equation here is um you still want to set Direction even given these tools and in in any industry I don't know if this is a popular view or not but there is some part of what is knowledge and creative work that is um more of the toil of it right so if you're like the you know um writer that is working for the showrunner just filling in the script for whatever they've described to you like maybe part of that workflow does get replaced um but I think the opportunity is that like you actually like who do they want making the final jokes and like putting in the nuances of how these characters relate to each other never mind all of the limitations of language models today where they don't have like memory and consistency and controllability the way you'd want like there's a human element that I think people will always want and I think we'll just see repopulation to um more forms of efficient creation right and just went to that one thing that happens is this has happened multiple times in this history of media like films used to be silent and used to have an orchestra right and so when audio was possible in movies a big question was what's going to happen with the orchestra in movies right someone needs to pay for that and the truth is that sure that disappeared but a lot of more value and opportunities were created with audio inside movies got it so there are a lot of people who are members of the orchestra today that it's going to change the only thing that scares me most about that prediction is if people feel I think most people probably feel overwhelmed by the amount of video audio that they have to keep up with today if we're going to be quadrupling or quintupling that I don't really look forward to it um but uh but I'm sure it will lead to many great things yeah it's a little bit adjacent to the exact topic but I do think that um you know the idea of information media entertainment overload is a very common one I feel this too like nobody wants to be Doom scrolling and being like I didn't cover this corner of Pop Culture all my friends know about yeah especially a news editor right yeah but um I think one thing that I I hope to see that a lot of people are working on are um agents that like services that are intelligent that work on behalf of individuals to go sort that out right if so if if there's AI that learns your preferences learns what you're interested in and then parses what you need to know um from all of your different sources and what you're going to find most funny most interesting most willing to share I feel like that solves some of the problem right um yeah I mean we're actually at a at a dinner last night we were talking about sort of hyper uh personalization with AI and that being a big part of the future that we don't yet have um you know historically you you brought up the transition from sort of silent movies to talkies as they were known you know you look in the last kind of 20 30 years at how new technologies have shaped or reshaped media it's usually text and music that get hit first because video is more complex so I guess I have one selfish question and then a quick follow-up selfish one is should I be worried that my job will be rendered obsolete in the next five years and then the the second is what do you feel or um do you feel that that we'll follow a similar trajectory with how AIS or reshapes media in terms of sort of the stages at which the different businesses can be impacted um I think AI will change everything and AI will change nothing right you're going to change a lot of the processes and the work that you try to do but over time it's still a work that you do right it's it's the human that's in the loop and the human is sort of saying that curates and defines the stories of your talent so if you're a reporter of your Storyteller you're still will be in control in the same way they're in control with the camera right and so um the nature of work of every work will might will change but I also I think it's important to be nuanced and specific around how it will change because not everyone will be using these models in the same way the same like an editor is not going to use a language model in the same way that a VFX supervisor will use it for another kind of like thing and and we're still there in understanding those kind of changes um so let's get yet to be seen I would say what are the hardest parts of being an editor uh well the hardest part of being uh well there's the reporting and then there's the editing I'd say with the reporting it's you know developing sources and finding information that nobody else has right that's what makes someone good or bad yeah that's the part that I think AI would have a very hard time replacing yeah um editing is a mix of managing people and also managing copy and that um you know managing people is probably more tricky yeah I mean as somebody who's like started an AI fund is quite bullish on the capabilities here I think we're pretty far away from replacement of those couple capabilities you mentioned is there are there some any companies that that you've seen in the last six months that most excite you like what are what are one or two that stand out within media uh yeah within with some connectivity to Media yeah um well I mean genuinely I think like Runway is a really amazing cup amazing tools and really interesting work um I mentioned briefly this company Element before elementy and um I don't think it's like considered a big industry the way um uh like software generation of imagery may not have been considered a big imagery before mid-journey became a popular tool um but the ability to take any media and I think this is especially relevant to like text first Publications but the ability to take any media and turn it into um the forms that your uh readership or your listenership or your audience wants is a pretty powerful thing and I think the ability to be immediately local is a pretty powerful thing and so um I think the the use cases we've seen for synthetic voice generation are like a lot experimental today or like pretty obvious right oh I wrote an essay like can we make it a podcast or um uh I want to go use it somewhere we already have robotic voices like call centers or like videos for HR compliance or something I don't think that's the interesting stuff at all I think it's coming down the line where any media you create as simply as like writing a note is going to be expressible in many different ways globally um and so I just think that's really powerful what did you I only somewhat related to it but I'm curious what did you make of the the Drake weekend song that freaked everyone out about where music is going I think it's pretty good so I'd start with that um and I I think it's a pretty complicated question um from a rights perspective right but I I do think it's something that we want to like grapple thoughtfully with as an industry because on the one hand there's a huge opportunity for artists to allow their audiences or create themselves much more because I mean if you ever listen to your favorite artist on repeat for you know a six hour drive or something like what does that tell you that's a demand signal that you like wish there was more Rihanna out there right but if you can produce it I think that's a really interesting opportunity I don't know what the answer is um except that we're going to get better predicting what people want and we can generate it and it's really like a like an Ethics question of um who gets to control that well do you find it do you guys think it's inevitable that people with lar that are developing llms will will license essentially from Studios music rights holders news organizations I um I don't have a good answer on this I think the uh it would be hard to imagine um producing things that were exactly in the voice and style of a known artist without their permission and that that's what their audiences would want because if people want more Rihanna probably need to go to Rihanna to make that happen right um okay I think we've we've just about hit time but is there anything uh anything we didn't cover no I think it's a very exciting time this this camera is just being put out and so I'm very excited to see what what people and filmmakers and new storytellers are going to use and make with the camera so excited what's going to happen cool thank you Bev thank you thanks [Applause] [Music] please welcome to the stage Breck's co-founder and co-ceo Enrique du bragra and pierremont Bank founder and CEO Wendy Kai Lee with Bloomberg's Tom Giles [Music] right Wendy Enrique thanks for joining me today we're here to talk about a few things that changed between startups and financial services firms a couple of months ago I want you all to hearken back to where you were in early March second week of March if you were a startup you were probably wondering how you were going to make payroll if you were a venture capital firm you were probably advising your startups to Take the Money and Run um we uh we actually I'm going to start with You Enrique we had a conversation with you that weekend about the impact on companies like yours um some of the things that you told us at the time um brex had received more than a billion in payroll loan requests just on that Thursday that critical Thursday when people started vacating uh Silicon Valley Bank you saw record inflows of money being deposited um talk a little bit more about that weekend and can you kind of quantify a little bit more from us now that the dust has settled um what kind of impact the problems in the regional Banks had and what kind of impact that had for you at brex yeah absolutely so first thank you so much for having me I definitely remember that weekend it's probably one of the craziest experiences of my professional career and we first originally um heard something was happening around Thursday uh and you know we had a little bit of our own money there so we decided to take it out and we started just seeing the inflow of deposits like we have never seen before but at that time you know it's still just a lot of fear on Friday you know then it was announced what was happening and we saw a huge rush of people opening accounts of us and I think one of the reasons uh we were so popular people opening accounts because we could actually open accounts the same day because a lot of our systems are automated in account opening versus most of the banks would take a few days or a week and if people needed to make payroll on the Monday it was Friday weekends everything it would be hard right so we saw um almost 5 000 account openings that that weekend uh you know and uh uh I think around 3 billion of deposits uh came over the next the next week or so and we didn't know exactly if we're going to stick we're not going to stick you know if people were going to stay or not stay actually most of them actually did stay which was uh obviously surprising for us and I think that it definitely changed the landscape and I think that the biggest way it changed the landscape is that most customers now don't want to concentrate their relationship in one partner they actually want to have multiple partners and I think that's here to stay Wendy your uh you have started a digital only Commercial Bank you target specifically fintech companies can you talk about how the how and to what extent did the events of mar early March 2023 change the way the ways startups new companies think about their relationship with banks yeah and I think before March 10th um Banks regulate a bank institution Fest was being viewed as a partner mostly it's really a service provider I think that after March 10th most of our at least Tech customers realize that wait a second the banking relationship is critical critical and the regulatory environment I should say The Regulators has immediate and critical impact to their business it's no longer a couple of steps removed and outside of the banking industry it's difficult for people I shouldn't say difficult I think it's underappreciated that the banking Regulators they're the rules that are they're the enforcer they're judge and jury so it's not like there are rooms for negotiation for discussion so if they view they deem and an institution has weakness they can come in and they did what they did right I'm not here to discuss in terms of what's warranted what's not Etc I think that's been covered relentlessly but I think it's the relationship that we're at one time being very indirect very remote becomes very real and very critical to them for both of you when you look back on that and when you think about the things that were happening at the banks that that ended up in receivership do you look at that and did you read their takeaways what were some of the lessons and were there things that those Banks were doing that you have decided we won't do that or we will scale back how much we do that um you want to go so well puremon is a regulator bank and we could talk about it as a non-regulated institution um for us the lesson learned I think is a couple of things one is the the definition of institution that has systemic importance I think we all know that right now any banks can create systemic issue and weakness I think that's a lesson learned for all parties especially for The Regulators that came as a surprise second is really the speed of your deposit that can run out the door I've said I think during our call that if this was 1965 people are lining up outside of every svb branch and three o'clock comes around branch close or that we run out of the cash and they're waiting for the trucks to deliver next day they would have never had 25 cash go out the door within four to six hours so we're looking at a con entirely different landscape and that also caught everyone by surprise not sure why myself included we all know that payments money runs moves around a lot faster but I don't think anybody really thought of this from a bank run standpoint so that's second so no deposit is safe and lastly I would just say that it's the potential regulatory environment swaying to the extreme end so post OA crisis we saw that and we are fully anticipating that we're already seeing that even in the last two weeks the FDIC have issue interagency guidance on how Banks should really work with fintech partners and how Banks need to treat the end users of a fintech so all that is going to create more fiction right versus taking frictions away that's going to create adding more cost to doing business with a bank and it's actually going to hinder I think the speed of product Innovation when bank for those banks that are actively supporting the fintech ecosystem so the list is actually not sure hate to say that yeah so for us um you know we are not a bank and uh I would say that before svb we had to explain that a lot and it was a detractor it's like why would I leave a money with a non-bank um and after that actually became a good thing um and the reason is Banks fundamentally the businesses you deposit your money with a bank and they're going to lend out your money right and um and the the concept of a bank run is well they lent out your money and then everyone try to get the money all at the same time and the money was lent out or was bought in different assets so there's no money right and um we we as a non-bank we don't do that because we can't at regulatory wise and obviously we lose some money by not doing it but at the same time uh you know if everyone were to take their money out today all the money would come out because we can't do anything of the money and I think a lot more customers just got a lot more aware of those dynamics of the difference between a bank and a non-bank where their money is going and I think that the increased scrutiny from the customer perspective actually uh was I think it's good for the industry because it does allow customers to understand what risks they're actually taking and so I think that I I agree that it will probably add regulation and friction to the system but I do think the Silver Lining is that customer increased customer education of where their money is going is probably a positive for for the for us Enrique I want to stay with you for just a second right before Martin I think it was in February you raised around a funding round um how much runway does that give you and right now what are your priorities in terms of how you're allocating resources both in terms of like your your Target customers the kinds of products that you're offering yeah absolutely so um the last time we we raised uh Equity money was around May or June 2022. um I think in in aggregate brex history raised a little bit over a billion and a half in equity uh and you know what we do disclose is that all the money we raise is enough to get us to cash flow positive and profitability without having to raise uh any more money the pace of those Investments obviously is a little bit dependent on on a lot of factors but you know we don't expect to raise any more money anytime soon a lot of our investments have been going into uh our new software platform in power which is uh spin management solution let's say replacing concur for businesses so now we can replace concur American Express and do kind of like uh you know a lot of banking services as well and uh another big part is on global expansion we announced recently that we can support customers and over 36 countries and you know that number has been growing so uh those are probably two big areas of investment for us uh Wendy um you when you talk about Piermont you use the phrase our mission is to grow as quickly and relevantly as our as our customers again a lot of them fintechs obviously not exclusively um you've raised 90 million so far how far are you from needing to raise again and what are your spending priorities your investment priorities sure sure and regular Banks so we actually don't need to raise as much as probably our fintech counterparts so we have already turned a profit um the banks raise capital is too really for asset growth standpoint it's a leverage point but we're sitting on a ton of capital as well as cash so um yeah I mean it's nice not to have to worry about the barn yep yep Enrique you talked about that path to profitability not needing to raise again um timeline wise what are you thinking about in terms of how long it's going to take to reach that Milestone that you set um and secondly how are you balancing the kind of advantages of being a publicly traded company against what a lot of the startups tell us or you know some of the detractors some of the downsides yeah absolutely so uh we absolutely want to be a publicly Trader company we're definitely not in the category of like oh we could stay private forever if we could I think there's a lot of advantages for business like ours being publicly traded that being said um I do want to be a low volatility publicly traded company um because I do don't believe that massive stock swings are good to operate I think it's very distracting for everyone involved so I would say that being profitable is probably one of the few things that do reduce volatility as being a public stock so I would say those things are pretty pretty correlated uh that being said we're still even though raised a lot of money have a high valuation we're still six years old so I would expect us to you know wait until at least you're nine or ten to do something Wendy um you said you turned a profit seven months ahead of time what are the Milestones that you need to see before you can start having the conversation about going becoming a publicly traded company sure so thanks go public or I think perhaps a slightly different reason is really for having another currency to do m a more than anything else so I think in the last given the events of the last few months I think that has changed the mind of frankly my own investors in terms of not being a publicly listed bank because someone can just short your stock and create a ton of volatility to your operations and to your survival actually so um normally in the past for banks is that you want to get to at about a billion and a half in total assets to have a meaningful listing so that's normal but for us it's about being the most profitable Commercial Bank rather than chasing the asset size at the moment I want to stay with you Wendy for a moment um and this and this ties back to the svb question um you are female founded female-led you have a female board chair more than half of your loans if I if my math is right or to low and modern income communities women and minority owned businesses um you've talked about the importance of diversity but right now we're we're at a time when it's become quite fashionable to be a detractor on Deni to say that this is a distraction to write op-eds for the Wall Street Journal and say maybe that's what got Banks such and such Bank into trouble can you talk about like why you do you still think diversity is important and why why is that why is it important as a business case and this is the kind of thing that you're going to have to have conversations with eventual investors in the public yeah so for us diversity and supporting minority-owned woman run whether it's funds or you know startups it wasn't a it's not an initiative it's very inherently part of our DNA so it's not something that we said okay let's strip out this part of the balance sheet and park this amount of money to support that I think that's really where it becomes a potentially a distraction in an environment like this so for us has always been built as part of the DNA so that that's for one thing second is that for us that's where a there's a large market share that has not been paid attention by the larger Banks that's the truth right and part of that is how do you be relevant it is very difficult actually for legacy Banks to move fast and to stay relevant because the processing the so-call commitment back office they just can't even if they want to and they recognize the needs they just cannot move that fast so then if you make that an initiative that it becomes a real distraction to your operation but for us we're naturally built that way straight right so we opening 2019 today we're still the only truly full-scope Commercial Bank Charter since the financial crisis which is 2008 right so when we build this we spend over nine months reverse engineer the entire how the commercial Banks is run because people often associate Innovation with technology only but in banking it's not not only technology right I always say Jamie Diamond can outspend anyone in technology right it's about innovation in process it's sustainable Innovation right so being very deliberate to change your product services and how you deliver that and I think that's really what this is about I know I'm you know sort of coming going off your topic a little bit but it comes back to that it's as long as you build something and you have a process that's relevant then supporting a particular demographic is not a distraction does that make sense so it's built I think fundamentally when you don't have Legacy process Legacy issues it becomes less of a burden when you singularly try to help a particular Marketplace Enrique is thinking about just having conversations about diversity is that something that is a priority for you and you have conversations with your board how do you how do you avert the likelihood of it becoming a distraction or somehow a somehow a problem or part of the rhetoric yeah no absolutely so for us since the beginning of Rex um we uh as you know Pedro my co-founder and I were both Brazilian or both immigrants who came here for college and one of the first problems we were trying to solve was people who couldn't get credit cards and you went into trouble you found a way to raise millions of dollars in Venture capitalists and then you got to a bank and they wouldn't give you a card and that made no sense in our head like how is it that I already fought all the challenges up to get millions of dollars in my corporate bank account they still won't give me a credit card and you know we created a super objective metric to assess risk that was actually how much money you've raised right so uh in that way um it was extremely objective and I think that you know every time we're looking and now we're expanding globally similarly right like a lot of times uh the international employees of a company they have less uh it's much harder to be an international employee they don't get access to corporate cars they have take weeks to get their uh expenses reimburse if they have to travel they have a debit card needs to be out of pocket so we try to like facilitate all of that of all of our products and make the world you know a little bit more Global in that respect you are both both your companies have a lot in common including leveraging technology to disrupt traditional providers of the services that you that you are are out there uh working on but we're not we're starting to see new insurance startups like ramp big Tech players like Apple how are they how are you what are you doing Wendy both of you to both of you what are you doing to ensure that you stay credible at a time when the barriers to entry seem all need to be falling well I think again as a regulated institution it is a little different because the barrier tree entry is very very high going through the approval getting FDIC insurance and getting the bank Charter with that said from the existing Bank population more and more of them recognize the need to um you know support this new Innovative ecosystem and they see the deposits opportunity they see that the income opportunity but the issue is that again it's regulation right and with the banks the Legacy processes the Legacy technology is often what holds them back so for me for Piermont Bank to answer your question is continue to be able to stay relevant which requires the ability to Pivot accordingly not be you know not not build technology not build processes that one day I become just one of them right and keeping it clean and keeping it simple so yeah so I think one thing in uh fintech or banking is that it is not a winner take salt Market I think it's a pre-coveted stop but before kova there was 44 Banks just in the United States that were worth more than 10 billion dollars in market cap so think about it 44 companies that kind of do the same thing um that are worth more than 10 billion dollars and I think it's because there's so much Nuance in different sectors different sizes different product sets that I think there's there's a lot of space for Innovation you know and disrupting the traditional players Wendy Enrique thanks a lot for joining us thank you [Applause] [Music] please welcome to the stage Cowboy Ventures founder and managing partner Aileen Lee and Sequoia Capital Partner Alfred Lin with Bloomberg's Emily Chang [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you both for joining us thank you thanks for having us you guys have known each other for a long time yeah we have and you've been in the industry for a long time that's right and we're not going to like belabor the point but you're just old yeah you're three Cycles so you've been in Tech through the through the.com bust through the recession and through whatever this thing is the downturn where are we what is this where are we in the cycle let's start no you can start I I mean I think we're in a downturn and we're still going down um so I think we've got a while to go it's going to be pretty bumpy for a while longer Alfred how bad does it get and how long does it last I don't know if it's I'm not a macro Economist but most of the people here aren't I'm not going to predict how long or how bad but it's always a good time to start a company if you have a great idea so yeah I wouldn't just just focus on the negatives I focus on all the Innovation that's happening there's always a tug of war in Silicon Valley between creative Innovation and some constraints that is happening right now the constraint is much higher interest rates and much higher cost of capital but there's a ton of innovation happening absolutely and so I would focus on that so in 2008 Sequoia said R.I.P Good Times 2020 was Black Swan 2022 is adapting to endure a little fancier adapting to endure that is fancy what would you say today what's 2023 I would say it's a tug of war between creative Innovation and and the constraints that uh that we face and I think Founders don't start companies because of the any cycle it whether it's a downturn or upturn you start a company because you have a great idea and so there's a tug of war going on and your job is to figure out how to creatively find solutions to both cost of capital being higher is yeah that could be you can think of it as a problem or you can think of it as an opportunity and the things that worked fifth for the last 15 years because interest rates was close to zero that's out the window you have to find a new set of playbooks that's right if you had a slogan what would it be if I was I was thinking about this because I had a feeling you were going to ask about it and so I was thinking okay um it could be the age of death Accords this is coming from the Unicorn alien coined the term unicorn maybe we'll talk about this a little bit but I think obviously there are a lot of companies that raised a lot of money at very high valuations that will probably not stay there if and when they have to re-price um and then I was like oh this is too sad a little too morbid and then I was thinking it's maybe the age of ozembic right which is like companies have to kind of put themselves on a diet right like whatever you if you don't know what exemptic is it's this diet drug that helps you eat less right and so it kind of reduces your appetite and so I think we've been living in this age we lived in this age of chasing growth where Capital was free so you could spend a lot of money speed and growth is more important than Focus or discipline uh and now everyone has to focus they have to probably do less Chase less focus more and the constraints will create a lot of creativity and it's like people kind of I guess like people who who have taken Olympics say like I was really surprised that I don't need to eat as much as I was to be healthy I think a lot of companies will do let like do more with less and become healthier um but I didn't I think actually the thing I thought of last was maybe it's a return to Ramen oh we're getting really creative yeah yeah exactly and that's what I brought you each a little present you do yeah exactly and if you haven't heard this so I think Paul Graham popularized this uh term Raman profitability right which is like get your company to a place where you're making enough that you can actually like kind of pay the living pay for the living expenses of the founders um pay attention to margins pay attention to team quality customer Obsession and how much money you're spending and I think that's probably what we're getting back to I want to talk a little bit about the term unicorn because I've heard some people say we shouldn't even be trying to be unicorns and that messed everything up how do you respond to that like all these people I don't trying to be all these companies trying to be a billion dollar company and really you're Twisted per version of the idea right the whole original idea was like it's hard to build a billion dollar company because you know five or ten years ago to build a billion dollar company you had to generate 200 million dollars in revenue or 300 million dollars in Revenue right so that means you have to be really smart about what you're building about your Revenue quality about your team execution um and it was just about also just how hard it is and how rare it is so I think we're probably going back to that as well it's a special thing I actually pitch book says roughly one-third of VC backed unicorns and there are more than 400 of them haven't raised money since 2021 what's in store for them I think a lot of companies raise a lot of money in 2021 and so they're going on their diet they're they're trying to figure out how to have as much of a Runway as possible and they're trying to build and grow into their evaluation I think the issue with the term unicorn is not the term it's the fact that people were chasing a vanity metric which is valuation as opposed to just core fundamental Financial metrics like going back to basics as Aileen was talking about um we had Brian chesky at our first base camp and he told the audience at Sequoia of Sequoia Founders you know we people used to call us a unicorn but it really now feels like a unicorn when we have a billion dollars in Revenue and then he we had him back in this this past year uh at our recent base camp and he's generating a billion dollars a quarter in cash flow so that's that's called a real unicorn yeah in my opinion that's a real business that's a real business how is the volatility changing the way Sequoia is investing volatility what volatility the foreign [Laughter] we don't measure things on it the best part about the private business it doesn't affect volatility we don't watch the public markets day to day and see how whether it swings up or down and the best part about investing for the long run is your focus on enduring companies you look you focus on category defining companies that can last for a long long period of time and I go back to what you know we're going to probably talk about AI but think about what Jensen did when he started Nvidia it wasn't even about AI it was about graphic you know graph a gpus about Graphics it was a processing and calculating things in a different way you're solving a very hard problem because floating Point Computing was what the CPU did really well and he wanted to multiply something called matrices and now we're using that for AI but accelerated Computing took a long time to develop he's been at it for 30 years and that started with a scene investment from Sequoia of a million dollars we over time invested about four million less than four million dollars into this company when it went public and we distributed it when it was a 20x imagine if we have the Sequoia Capital fund back then because I think the current Holdings if we held it to today it would be worth 58 billion not bad that's a unicorn yeah that's a unicorn what about cowboy I mean I I think um it's funny before I went into Venture I worked in the fashion business I worked at Gap and they seem like they're very different businesses but you and I both know this right like we both work in fashion yeah we both worked in fashion businesses right it's like things trends like they come and go and you know we site there are cycles and economies there are Cycles in business we're in a tech cycle where I think we've people bought a lot of best of breed there was an app for everything in the past five years we are kind of moving into back into a consolidation cycle where CFOs cios csos are saying hey we have too many SAS vendors we need to kind of Whittle the number of vendors that we have not everyone can bring their app and expense it um so the bar at least because we invest in a lot of enterprise software um I think the bar is a lot higher right now to be able to sell a new Enterprise software package to the Enterprise but I think the reason why people will buy new software in the future is AI um it's going to drive a whole new generation of applications that are going to be AI native and it's going to deliver completely different benefits uh than older software so that's pretty exciting and I think it's going to be like valuations are lower teams are going to be more disciplined so I do think just like after the Great Recession some really incredible companies are going to be built in the next couple years there was quite a big unicorn that recently became a death Accord Alfred you were a big investor in FTX Sequoia was a big investor in FTX so much has been made of the cult of personality of Sam and how many smart people were duped I don't know how you would describe it but Lessons Learned there it's only yesteryear no no no no no no no no no no I think you know some key learnings I think I learned a really hard lesson but I learned that I have really great Partners we talk about Sequoia that's a sequoia investment it's not my investment or someone else's investment and I really felt supported during that time from all my partners I also just looked at the we looked at the work that we did 15 different ways we probably would have made the investment again so the lesson learned there is one that's really hard to take which is we're in the Venture business and they're going to be losses and while it stings to lose 150 million dollars from our Global growth fund it's two to three percent of that fund and our our LPS pay us to take calculated risk and we're going to lose sometimes there are companies that are going to surprise us to the upside like Airbnb and doordash and Nvidia and Google and then they're going to be companies that are not going to do very well and we have to be comfortable with that and that is actually the most uncomfortable where you look at the data you would have done it again and yet at the same time you have to be okay with it alien what's your take on I mean the the the sort of the culture founder Alfred and his his colleagues are incredible investors I mean they're really the best in the business so um it's almost it's almost reassuring that they're not like they don't bat a thousand because it seems like they're about a thousand we don't the reality is nobody bats a thousand in this position you know if you're lucky you're batting 300 or 400 right it's about slugging percentage and a lot of like it's not really about like small you know a little more about softball but um it happens you know and these very like a very high integrity person so it happens the thing that um I would even say it's even worse than batting 300 it's you're going to lose money 10 to 50 at a time depending on the scale of the business and the Venture business you're likely to lose money 30 to 50 percent of the time in the growth business 10 to 20 of the time it is painful to realize those losses but we are in the we are in a sense a trust business we have to trust the founders and what they tell us because if we don't trust them then we're not going to invest in the company and sometimes our trust will be misplaced our is Sequoia is still committed to crypto yeah we're still very excited about the concepts of crypto because the idea of creating trust where trust in exists before is very appealing now are we fans of certain things that happen during the boom no but it this is a sort of area where it happens you go from place to place to place and there's a reason why things are inflated because this is something interesting in that space you have to separate the noise from the signal and you have to find the interesting companies going back to you know calling us three cycle investors the internet index dropped by 90 yeah between 1999 and 2001. that doesn't mean that they weren't great companies that came out of the internet and in fact the internet is bigger today than it was in 2001 but you had to be aware that you're going to take some lumps and losses and you hopefully pick some good ones yeah I think the thing that's hard is obviously obviously during downhurns people lose their job their job are forced to move out of tech people's money like are lost not just institutional investors and I think that's really hard and something we would love to avoid so a topic that's not so yesteryear is sequoia's restructuring you are parting ways with Sequoia China India Southeast Asia untangle this for us and the motivations parting ways so it's actually five business units this is the US Europe business that is Sequoia Capital the private business there's the what we call the Heritage business that is for our um for our Founders and our partners and also some select endowments there's our hedge fund business which is sdge there's our India South East Asia business and then there's also our China business and we've those five businesses have always been independently owned and operated I don't actually have any influence on the decision making in any of the other four business lines that's always been the case the only difference now is where we don't share the back office anymore and that's partly because there was a fair amount of brand confusion and we think that it would be better of all five of these businesses were seen as separate entities and our LPS we have um and our customers our LPS and our Founders couldn't be happier alien what's your take on this you know seeing you know obviously there's no firms have changed so far Cowboy India and cowboy China are all staying I'm just kidding I mean it's it's I don't know it's not what to say about that well I do want to have one more question about the China thing because um you know a lot has been made about sequoia's lobbying in BC and what it has come to be called your China problem did what did the geopolitics have to do with it geopolix ticks was not the primary driver it was one it's a factor um but it wasn't the primary driver because if it was just China then we would just do that with China we had five separate businesses now and so I don't I don't think the that was ever going to be a primary reason because the primary reason is how we best serve our our limited partners and our founders so let's talk about then where you are doubling down and focusing I don't know if it's necessarily more on the early stage right but that was sort of my interpretation of what was said about where your part of the firm's focus is going to be now we're still focused as always on idea to IPO and Beyond helping Founders daring Founders do start at the seed and invest in them from idea to IPO and Beyond that's always been the mission yeah someone who's been you mean you've been in seed since the beginning right I started out doing yeah at Cowboy yes right I mean I think and I don't want to say going back to your roots but you know we are seeing this trend of of firms changing and especially in the economy making different decisions yeah is that what is is this going to define the next decade of venture investing so uh I mean we were debating this a little bit before because I think I think it's Bill Gurley who said that your fund size is your strategy so uh you know I think large multi-stage firms it doesn't really make sense and it doesn't serve Founders the best for them to to do much seed investing or they should be really clear with the founders like look we're partially doing seed investing because we want to make sure we have a shot at the a or a shot at the beer the shot at the sea but we're we're really big fund we have to deliver giant returns and we kind of have to titrate our time on the companies that are that are more that are kind of more de-risked to be able to deliver us the return so we are happy to co-invest with multi-stage firms at seed but I do I'm a fan of like kind of stage focus at seed companies are very raw we often invest pre-product and so our team is kind of built to be able to take on that kind of a risk and assess those folks and and like kind of do all the heavy lifting and then hopefully graduate them to Great series A and B investors but I think a lot of multi maybe not you all um you all are kind of unicorns in your own right but a lot of multi-stage firms are going to pull back from the seed business because I don't think it makes sense for them all right so let's talk about AI we've been talking about it all day long tam Altman obviously was here this morning is AI the next big thing or the next big bubble the next bubble is that what you said it was both how much is hype how much is reality are we in the new spin cycle or is this gonna be real truly defining technology I think I I don't like the term I would say this I don't like the term artificial intelligence I like the term AI to mean augmented intelligence we've been investing in augmenting our intelligence for a long time and so if you look at the trend of that and how technology is augmented our productivity that has happened for much longer than either of us have been investors so let's take that perspective I think what people are talking about right now is an innovation in AI called large language models and Is that real or not I think that's real I think we talk about companies before large language models and what they need to do after large language models and we see companies that are adopting large language models from the seed stage to a growth stage to public companies Brian chesky was here with you talking about their problems that they're trying to solve with large language models and they want to do a matching they want to do better matching not better search um and the the there are just many many problems and ideas I can be uh solved for small companies for large companies and for innovators are going to create companies in the space so I think it's a real trend uh now that doesn't really answer your question or whether it's a bubble or not it could be both as Eileen just said which is you know there's going to be a lot of hype around some of these things but back to the internet bubble you can have a situation where the index loses 90 percent and yet there are great companies that come out of it yeah are at the seeds day our our startups going to survive or succeed in the age of AI you know there's a lot of talk that like Inc comments already have so much power they do have a lot of I mean it takes a lot of compute resources and that's why we're seeing it's kind of A Tale of Two Cities right now I think not just at seed but probably every stage that a lot of the companies that are AI native and also have teams that are pedigreed my joke is like you know three guys who who interned at open AI last summer raised to 50 million dollars year round like people who have some credibility in the space are raising very large rounds at pretty high valuations a lot of other software companies are struggling to raise I think there's going to be a lot of great companies built both that are not kind of with these pedigreed AI Founders and um without but yeah there's definitely that's space is commanding pretty premium valuations right now now obviously alien you have personally been such a champion of of diversity in the industry or the co-founders of of all rays and I'm curious if in the midst of all of this volatility or the great economic Ally Ally Ally partner yep hi thank you um restructuring are you worried that some of the progress that we've made on diversity is going to take a back seat or that we are going to regress well we definitely have to be wary when you look at past downturns I think our industry is doing a really good job of building more sensitivity trying to take bias out of out of processes starting to track and measure the diversity and the composition of their cultures and teams and so they've made changes in the past couple years and so we cannot go back to the way it was I think more Founders realize that they have a lot of influence on who they hire and a lot of VC is on who's on the board who's on the management team who's on the cap table as long as we continue to push for that and be committed to it I think we can continue to make progress in our industry but we cannot let up there was a un study that just came out this week that showed that like 9 out of 10 people in the world are biased against women it's like that's pretty bad um I think a quarter of the people surveyed said it's okay to beat your wife like there's a lot of stuff we can fix and the tech industry is so influential um and so consequential that I think we have an incredible role to play all right so we've heard your taglines tug of war take ozempic last quick question how far out is the next Era of Good Times oh far out it's good times now this is fun guys you get to solve hard problems yes let me just tell you that if you don't want to solve hard problems you should get out of business in general and that's just true because if you want to build an enduring company you will face hard times at some point in your career if you want a long career in business if you want to build an enduring company just focus on solving hard valuable problems and be patient let's keep the good times rolling that's a great ending all right Aileen Lee Alfred Lynn thank you both so much thanks for having us [Music] and thank you for my prop okay [Music] um all right now um we are going to be closing the day with two women that I'm really excited to speak with um the CEO and founder of pendulum Therapeutics which is actually a sequoia back company Dr Colleen cutliff and the woman who needs no introduction Halle Berry who is the chief Communications officer at pendulum and my colleague Brad Stone let's welcome them to the stage [Music] all right what a wonderful way to end our day thank you guys for joining us thank you thank you for having me you made a Herculean effort to get here on time from Kansas Lions I did it's a long flight and I lost my luggage so oh no I planned on wearing something that looked more like what Colleen has well if that's what you look like on a plane I think you're doing pretty good yeah and frankly in San Francisco you fit right in good okay thank you when you said you lost your luggage though I was imagining what I travel and I was like so she's going to be in sweatpants and a tank top but you travel much nicer than well today I did thank you well I I was telling you backstage for me probiotics the the IL in my local Whole Foods is immensely confusing the products are all almost indistinguishable a slight sense that digestive chaos might result from any one of them but here you guys are closing a Tech conference so what is different about pendulum yeah I think if you've ever been in a grocery store and stood in the aisle and been confused by all the different probiotics you're not alone and also you're right they are all more or less the same if you start reading labels you'll see that it's the same kind of lactobacillus and bifidobacterium strains there hasn't been a new ingredient introduced in over 50 years in the probiotics industry and so it's ripe for disruption and the gut microbiome which is premised in DNA sequencing and biochemical assays to understand how do you metabolically map the microbiome and then understand what impact that has on human health becomes a sequencing and a tech problem and an engineering problem applied into a field of probiotics where there hasn't been a new ingredient and so really for us has been awesome to be able to innovate in the field and to bring products that have true efficacy that's measurable to the world and from my point of view they have this one um uh probiotic acromancia and what impressed me most about Pendulum In the Beginning is they're the only company Colleen has been able to figure out how to grow this one probiotic and it's really important it's one that as we age we lose right and so for women smack dab in the middle of menopause it's a really good thing and I think that is one very important factor that sets pendulum out from all of the other and the other companies have tried and tried and tried and Colleen has been the only one to be able to do that Hallie talk to us a little bit about your own health journey and what led you to pendulum in particular when as Brad said like the aisle is overwhelming well first of all I got diagnosed with diabetes when I was 19 years old and so I was on 36 units of insulin and I was young and I was trying to understand you know what that meant for my life and being young in the film industry and trying to take insulin shots all day long and eat the right Foods when I had to eat the right Foods really was a problem so I ended up meeting this um uh Eastern medicine doctor and he took me down this ayurvedic path and so he would send me roots and herbs and vitamins to boil up and make all these potions right so I eventually without the help of my Western medicine doctor weaned myself off insulin so I have always been a believer in helping my body jump start itself to work properly and putting you know the proper nutrients through food in my body realizing that I could force it to work in a more optimal way so I had a friend I'm from Cleveland Ohio and a friend of mine from Cleveland called me up and said you have to try this new probiotic pendulum is backed by the Mayo and the Cleveland Clinic so she said you should try this I know you're always looking for ways to keep your A1C down and to stay healthy you should give it a try and I did and I saw results pretty quickly my A1C went down my energy levels went up it helped with brain fog being in menopause that was really good for me I got better sleep you know I started to see real tangible results and I had tried other probiotics since I was 19 20 years old and nothing really moved my needle like this product moved my needle and that's when I reached out to the company and I said I want to understand more about this who who is this Colleen I want to know how this came about and she was so you know graciously she entertained all my questions at all my calls and finally no I said how can I be a part of this how can I be a part of helping everybody else learn what I learned it was like a Eureka moment for me when I really found a product that actually worked almost coincidentally the weight loss drugozymic was coming up in your previous panel almost as a metaphor for startups slimming down but I I made me curious like are there chemical similarities in the in the products at pendulum is selling and how do you guys feel about these weight loss drugs that are suddenly very fashionable in Silicon Valley I I would presume in Hollywood as well yes that's pervasive I've always been you know I'm not going to say what's right or wrong or you know everybody has to make this choice for themselves but I've always been sort of the natural holistic route I do it with diet diet control as a lifestyle and exercise I think that's been really helpful in my life in managing my diabetes so that's how I go about it Colleen you're a biochemist you know I think a lot of people look at these supplements probiotics and think of it as this like woo-woo thing even Western doctors won't prescribe it or some doctors have told me like don't take that stuff talk to us about the real science behind it yeah I mean I think that I actually tend to agree with that I think most I don't take any other probiotics and I think there's a fair amount of it that you don't actually know what's in the bottle there's been a lot of studies to come out showing that what's on the label is not the same as what's in the bottle it's not regulated the way drugs are and so it enables a lot of people to just kind of come in be a flash in the pan and and take market share so the science underlying it and you know I can bring it back to the glp ones is that um actually pendulum glucose control our Flagship product was intended to help the body naturally produce glp-1 that's actually what it does and so your body when you eat food that has sugar in it which is basically everything um first gets digested in your gut microbiome and your gut microbiome responds to that food by stimulating glp-1 the glp-1 is produced by the gut microbiome and so what these drugs are trying to do is to mimic that glp-1 and pendulum glucose control was trying to give you back these microbes that help you metabolize food to naturally stimulate glp-1 and we had all these reports of people saying well I've been losing weight my appetite's been going down 70 percent of our customers take the product because they don't have sugar cravings and food cravings and this is all really the product of glp-1 and so they're all all these things are tied together and you know whether it's a pharmaceutical drug versus a natural product I think it is a super important pathway I think about metabolism and and tell us where you're taking this so you know not only what's in the pipeline but what is the scope of the ambition and now that you have Hallie on board and maybe are distinguishing yourself from from uh from the the crowded probiotics aisle what is the ambition of the company well I think the microbiome um we're now learning is linked to all kinds of different systems in the body and I'll just say this about meeting Hallie because as you might imagine it can be intimidating to meet somebody like Hallie and we I feel like we hit it off from the first time that we talked and eventually got comfortable enough where she said Colleen you've really created a product that works um but nobody knows who you are and nobody's ever heard of pendulum I know how to change the packaging and you've got to change the packaging this just looks like a bottle of medicine how do we create a package that the Innovation on the outside matches the inside but really you know how can I help you create a brand and create awareness and I think that's that's kind of the power Duo that we've got here and so when we think about going out and really capitalizing on the gut microbiome it goes Way Beyond what you think about today which is GI distress into metabolic Health which is what our first products are on we know that the gut is uh the gut brain axis is really important acromancia actually produces is Gaba which is known to reduce stress and anxiety and we know that there are kind of your typical neurodegenerative diseases that you can start to go after with the gut and so we're super excited to keep learning and exploring the science Hallie you are of course Halle Berry you know how did you decide you wanted a second act and how much will this be your second act well this will very much be my second act you know I feel like Colleen said I feel it's incumbent upon me to use any you know um influence that I have over Everyday People for good and because I you know I use this product for over a year before I really asked her to really get involved well I saw a signs pretty early I thought no let me ride this out let me see what the effects will be and so I really took it very seriously and I wouldn't be sitting here um wanting to help her and you know align with her if I really didn't feel like this was something that really actually worked for me in in a big way and my job now is to just let all of you know and since I'm at a summit I'm gonna say this if there's anybody out here who wants to get involved let us know because I do think that this is a revolutionary product very soon this is going to be the the leader it's going to emerge as the leader of the pack and probiotic you've also dropped the m word a couple times which is menopause and I you know there are these tabs there are these Women's Health topics that are taboo that people don't talk about so I appreciate that you are talking about these things but should we be lifting the veil on more of these issues yes that's also a lane I'm going down um also in this active life because we did is we have to sort of you know we have to get rid of these taboos you know women have been suffering since the beginning of time a million women a year go into menopause 1.8 billion dollars is lost in wages when women because women can't go to work so it's like this is a real issue you know and I'll say this too I love every man in this room but if if men suffered from menopause this would have been figured out a long time ago and you know it's true so I just asked my my my brothers to like you know uh support us as we go through this process and as women become more comfortable and we take the shame out of it you know we are blessed to make it to the menopausal years right and we are our best selves as women we're stronger we're smarter we know we've lived life we've raised our children we now have money to spend like we're feeling good like you know it's it's our time to really put some energy and some resources behind this issue and help us figure out ways that we can actually not just survive this time but thrive in pendulum is a really good product to start you on that Journey another taboo you've been vocal about in the past is mental health is there a link between taking care of yourself in this kind of product and mental health you know when your gut is well you know then everything about you as well so it all starts here uh in your gut for sure Colleen it's not often we talk to a Therapeutics company that's backed by Sequoia and so I'm in Alfred actually told me he's a huge fan he takes a lot of supplements I know Roloff both uh who's on your board does as well what does sequoia bring to the table that another investor might not given the Silicon Valley connection um well I think when we first started we were all about the technology and I something that's really cool is that before I started this company I worked at Pacific biosciences which is a DNA sequencing company and DNA sequencing Technologies really were born you know in Silicon Valley and so that's the technology that creates all the massive amount of data that we use to identify what are the next targets to go after and so when we first started working with Sequoia it really was how do you bring the latest Technologies and Big Data together with science and try to crack that nut how do you bring these two things together and then I would say there are a lot of venture capital firms that say that they're founder friendly but Sequoia is incredibly founder friendly they create all of the tools and the infrastructure and the learning lessons to help all of us succeed and they they kind of have this phrase the tribal knowledge all the things that they've learned and many startups go through sort of the same trials and relations and how can they help us avoid the potholes as we're going down these you know New Roads and it's been an amazing partnership um and and just their belief and how many of them are even on the products and sharing back their stories I couldn't imagine better Partners in building this this is not a regulated space right the FDA treats this as a nutritional supplement or even a food ingredient should it be regulated do both of you have conviction about that and can you change the government's view on probiotics well actually pendulum glucose control is not a supplement it's on a different path which is called medical food which is a kind of between drug and supplements so the reason we can say this is for people with type 2 diabetes and helps lower A1C and blood glucose spikes is because it is in a slightly different regulated space than the completely unregulated does it have FDA approval it's not a drug so it's not an FDA approved drug but I think that we'd all love to have more regulation in the space and especially as this grows I do think it's the responsibility of you know the industry to make sure that people aren't being fooled yeah because I always My slogan is all probiotics are not created equal and I've tried most of them it's the are Regulators receptive to these messages have you can you use your influence to go and make a difference in how Regulators look at this and maybe clean up the industry a little bit they're already making movements towards that and it starts with standardizing how things are reported on the label and so they there have already been new laws put into place around you know how do you measure what's on what you're putting on the label and how do you make sure that there's kind of Truth in the bottle and so I think um I don't know are you up for taking on the US government I'm always good for for a good fight but you said you've tried everything right there there's a lot I've tried many yes chaos and yes misinformation in this yes so yeah at the answer to yes I'm up for a good fight always um what is the next Frontier in metabolic Health like I feel like we're kind of at a moment where we're having a breakthrough where do you see this going what kind of research are you doing in terms of new products to help blow the doors open I think metabolic health is going to continue to grow in our our knowledge and and and products that that surround it because essentially our ability to metabolize sugar is the number one signal for how well we're aging how healthy we are and so when you can actually metabolize your sugars better it's not just that your A1C goes down it's that you have better energy reduce brain fog better workouts uh some of these symptoms of menopause will start to be diminished and so it's actually a fundamental core function of your body to metabolize sugar and as we age we lose things in our gut that help us metabolize these foods and so as we start to figure out how do you improve metabolic Health we are all going to get back some of those functions that right now I think a lot of people sort of shrug and say well that's just part of aging we just have to deal with it but we don't I kind of want to hear your routines like your dietary slash supplement slash exercise slash be in Better Health routines Ally let's start with you mine well oh I don't start with her all right all right donuts and bourbon seriously right I mean you guys are thinking about this every day so I'm I'm curious I want to learn well I have always managed my diabetes with my food and you know uh and exercise so that's a big part of what I do I'm probably the most boring eater on the planet I'm really just for a good protein and some you know low carb veggies that if I have that sounds really boring but I'm somebody that actually you know eats to live I don't live to eat so it's not that important to me I'm not a foodie so it's eating that way it's having you know my exercise routine which is always really important what's your exercise routine well it depends on because of what I do sometimes I'm playing a role where I have to lose weight I just did a movie where I had to look emaciated like I was starving so that's one way to sort of stay healthy while I do that before that I played an MMA fighter so I had to beef up so it all depends on what I'm doing in my work life as to what my workouts sort of look like but the food always stays the same my pendulum always stays the same and I take you know a few other supplements you know I make sure I have my my you know vitamin D I take you know fish oils and like other things like that to sort of supplement my my pain but it's always my pendulum is with me what about you know the meditation slash yoga slash Tech routine I mean are you are you a like take Tech out of my day kind of person or um I am but it's not to take it out of my day that's not really my thought my thought is more to connect to myself because I'm also a big believer that we manifest you know our realities and so sometimes I have to go deep in you know just connecting with myself and putting out in the universe that which you know what I'm wanting I'm a big believer in that too all right Colleen your turn I mean he says Bourbon and donuts I know you didn't have to bulk up to my domain fighter but I don't eat to live I live to eat I love to eat that's why we created a product personally I was like how do we help this metabolism problem so um no I eat terribly and then I take my glucose control I also take my glucose control religiously but for a different reason to enable all the bad behaviors I do exercise uh pretty religiously because I think that that's an important part for me that's really a mental health thing um but no I'm a terrible I grew up in the South I love fried foods and sweet things and suburban and bourbon yeah go ahead Hallie now that you're keynoting at Tech conferences and Advising a venture capital backed startup is this the beginning of something do you are you looking for other similar opportunities related to things that you're passionate about no [Laughter] no she'll be available for pitches after the conference what's going on Brad no she'll kill me no no but I will say this yeah this is the second half of my I mean I you know at 56 years old I've I've really realized I'm kind of done being the dancing bear so I really want to have a a second act that's um as meaningful as my First Act I hope and actually I think in your career you've had to be incredibly entrepreneurial there's a lot of skills you've had to develop that apply directly to being in a startup yeah and you know that's a really I won't say many jobs are stressful but as a movie actor after every movie you're unemployed again so you're constantly you know starting a new Venture if if you will or finding work or finding a way to also build your career so that after 30 years you can still you know be relevant in your career so that takes you know entrepreneurial all right so we'll end with this I think you know some people in the audience might be hearing this for the first time if they're one if they're intrigued you know what should they do first you know how do they go out there and start this journey well I think good gut health sort of starts with getting educated first so um we have a lot of educational materials on our website um pendulumlife.com but there's also it's becoming mainstream enough that you can go to the Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic websites and you can learn about gut health and I think I think what's really important is that people not take a product because they think it's doing something for them we always tell people you will have a measurable you will feel a difference and if you don't feel a difference don't just do the thing so I think that's an important thing what do you try to solve what are you expecting to see and then you go into this journey figuring out you're optimizing for those metrics but I would say if you're struggling at all with type 2 diabetes in any way your A1C is too high glucose control is the product for you if you are just not really having a problem with sugar but you just want to have better metabolism weight control sleep better than I would say metabolic daily would be I think the way to start Halle Berry Dr Colleen cutliff thank you both so much thank you [Music] all right we're gonna say goodbye to everyone all right we're done thank you all for joining us at the Bloomberg Tech Summit and thanks to all the speakers and the moderators for a great day um there's some light bites on the rooftop I believe but wait let me thank our presented sponsors Chrome Enterprise autonomous and our marketing sponsors SF City and the national Venture Capital Association who made this event possible and we do have a dinner program moving from defense to offense keeping your organization safe on the web proudly sponsored by Chrome Enterprise that starts at six o'clock and the room is right off the um main Stairway To the Left I don't know which it's out there and re-watch any part of today's Summit because you missed it or just want to watch it again or you just want to see Palmer lucky all over again bloomberglive.com and click on the Bloomberg Tech Summit icon to view it on demand yes thank you and thank you thank you so much for being here we really appreciate it thank you the bar is open [Music] foreign [Music] thank you [Applause] [Music] thank you [Music]

Channel: Bloomberg Live

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Keywords: bloomberg, bloomberg live, technology, superbowl

Id: N32TPwpynCE

Length: 212min 8sec (12728 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 23 2023