TRUMP COULDN'T BE CONTROLLED OR CONSTRAINED IN ANY OTHER WAY. >> SO DONALD TRUMP'S FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR MADE THE TV ROUNDS AGAIN OVER THE WEEKEND, LARGELY DEFENDING THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. SAYING THE CHARGES AGAINST TRUMP ARE NOT A RESULT OF A WEAPONIZED DOJ. >> I DON'T LIKE, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE OVERKILL ATTACKS, THAT THIS WAS SOMEHOW REPREHENSIBLE TO BRING IT. WHAT WAS REPREHENSIBLE WAS THE CONDUCT AFTER THE ELECTION. IT'S PERFECTLY TO BE EXPECTED THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WOULD APPROACH IT THE WAY IT WOULD APPROACH SOMETHING LIKE THIS, WHICH IS UNDER THE LAWS AGAINST DEFRAUDING THE UNITED STATES AND OBSTRUCTING PROCEEDINGS. I THINK IT'S A LEGITIMATE CASE. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ATTACKS ON THE DEPARTMENT, SAYING IT'S ABUSIVE OR IT IS WEAPONIZATION FOR BRINGING THIS CASE. WHEN SOMEONE SAYS, YOU KNOW, THIS IS UNFAIR, THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME OTHER MOTIVE, THE FIRST QUESTION IS, OKAY, WAS THE CRIME DONE? WAS THERE SERIOUS WRONGDOING HERE, OR IS THIS A CASE OF GOING AFTER SOMEBODY WHO REALLY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING OR A TECHNICAL VIOLATION OR STRETCHING THE LAW WAY BEYOND WHERE IT SHOULD BE? NO. THERE WAS VERY GRAVE WRONGDOING HERE, AND I THINK IT IS REASONABLE TO SAY THAT IT FALLS WITHIN THE OBSTRUCTION OF A PROCEEDING. THAT'S NOT WEAPONIZATION. THAT'S ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW. I AM CONCERNED THAT IN A SECOND TERM, HE WILL BE OFF THE HOOK. THERE WILL BE NO WAY OF CONTROLLING HIM, AND HE WILL ALSO SURROUND HIMSELF WITH YES MEN. >> DAVID, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT BARR IS TALKING THIS WAY. I DON'T KNOW IF TRUMP SUPPORTERS COMPLETELY TUNE HIM OUT NOW, BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT MOST OF THE STUFF THAT'S ON FOX NEWS AND IT'S FALSE EQUIVALENCIES, FALSE MORAL EQUIVALENCIES AND FALSE LEGAL EQUIVALENCIES. "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" EDITORIAL PAGE WHICH HAD BEEN CRITICAL OF DONALD TRUMP TRYING TO STEAL THE ELECTION AND OF JANUARY 6th NOW BATHED IN FALSE EQUIVALENCIES. EVERYTHING HAS TO DO WITH HUNTER BIDEN. THEY CAN NEVER MENTION DONALD TRUMP TRYING TO STEAL AN ELECTION OR STEALING NUCLEAR SECRETS WITHOUT BRINGING UP DEMOCRATS OR HUNTER BIDEN OR A WEAPONIZED DOJ. IT'S GROTESQUE. YET, IT IS A GROTESQUE PLAY THAT AT LEAST 40% OF AMERICANS ARE BUYING. >> YEAH. IN A SENSE, THEIR GOAL IS TO PUT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ON TRIAL HERE. I THINK THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT TRIAL IN THE 150 YEAR HISTORY OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. IF YOU LOOK, THERE WAS A POLL RECENTLY BY MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL THAT SHOWED THAT ROUGHLY 80% OF REPUBLICANS, 80% HAVE LITTLE OR NO CONFIDENCE IN WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS DOING TODAY. ROUGHLY 80% OF DEMOCRATS HAVE SOME OR A GREAT DEAL OF CONFIDENCE IN WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS DOING TODAY. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE. I SPOKE WITH FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS, ONE OF WHOM AGREED, TALKED ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN. YOU KNOW, AGREED WITH THE TALKING POINTS YOU JUST MENTIONED, THAT THIS WAS AN UNFAIR PROSECUTION, THAT ALL THE PROSECUTIONS ARE BEING BROUGHT NOW THAT HE IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. OTHERS IN THE DEPARTMENT SUPPORT WHAT'S HAPPENED. IT'S JUST A CRITICAL MOMENT FOR THEM. >> BUT, DAVID. >> GO AHEAD, YES? >> HOW CAN THEY SAY THAT? YOU KNOW, IN 2019, WE SAID ON THIS SHOW, IF DONALD TRUMP LOSES IN 2020, HE WILL RUN AGAIN TO AVOID PROSECUTION. THIS IS WHAT MY TORTS PROFESSOR WOULD SAY WHEN HE WAS SETTING US UP, HE'D SAY, "AND THE NEXT THING YOU SHOULD SEE LIKE A FREIGHT TRAIN COMING OUT OF THE MIST." WE ALL SAW THIS COMING FOR FOUR YEARS. THAT HE WOULD RUN AGAIN SO HE COULD DELEGITIMIZE ALL THE PROSECUTIONS THAT WERE CLEARLY COMING AFTER HIM. MORE SO AFTER JANUARY 6th. HOW COULD ANYBODY IN THE DOJ, HOW COULD ANYBODY AT "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" EDITORIAL PAGE, HOW COULD ANYBODY ON FOX NEWS MAKE ANY OF THESE ARGUMENTS WITH A STRAIGHT FACE WHEN WE ALL SAW IT COMING YEARS AGO? >> I AGREE, IT WAS VERY CLEAR IT WAS COMING. ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF MERRICK GARLAND'S JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS WHY IT TOOK SO LONG TO BRING THIS INDICTMENT. IT WAS CLEAR FROM THE MOMENT GARLAND TOOK OFFICE THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE A CENTRAL QUESTION, THE MOST POWERFUL INVESTIGATION AGAINST DONALD TRUMP REGARDING JANUARY 6th WOULD BE CONDUCTED BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, NOT BY CONGRESS. THE POWER OF A GRAND JURY TO GET TO THE TRUTH. WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG IS ONE QUESTION. WHAT KATTY SAID EARLIER ABOUT OUR CALCIFIED POLITICS. I LOOKED AT THE POLLS LEADING UP TO WATERGATE AND THE RESIGNATION OF RICHARD NIXON. WITH EACH STEP ALONG THE WAY, THERE WAS A BIPARTISAN HEARING IN CONGRESS. THAT KNOCKED DOWN PRESIDENT NIXON'S NUMBERS. FEDERAL INDICTMENTS OF SOME OF NIXON'S AIDES BY THE DOJ. THAT KNOCKED DOWN HIS NUMBERS. THEN, FINALLY, IT WAS THE UNANIMOUS SUPREME COURT RULING THAT BROUGHT HIS DISAPPROVAL RATING TO 59%. IT WAS 59%, THEN RERESIGNED. WE DON'T HAVE THE BODY BLOWS FROM THE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT COMING TODAY, AND TRUMP WANTS THIS. HE'D BE HAPPY IF HE WAS JAILED, BLUNTLY, BY JUDGE CHUTKAN, BUT IT'D PLAY INTO HIS NARRATIVE THAT HE IS THE VICTIM OF SOME DEEP STATE PLOT. >> SAM? >> YEAH, TO FURTHER THAT POINT, IF YOU RECALL BACK TO THE END OF THE LAST CONGRESS, THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL OF TRUMP, ONE OF THE REASONS THAT REPUBLICANS VOTED AGAINST CONVICTION, INCLUDING MITCH McCONNELL, WAS PRECISELY THAT THEY WERE SAYING, LOOK, THE LEGAL SYSTEM CAN HANDLE THIS. HE IS NOT GOING TO BE PRESIDENT. WE ARE INAUGURATING JOE BIDEN. LET'S LET THE LEGAL SYSTEM WORK OUT WHAT IS CRIMINAL CONDUCT. NOW, A LOT OF REPUBLICANS ARE SAYING, NO, NO, NO, WE SHOULD WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT ELECTION. LET THE VOTERS DECIDE ON THIS. IT IS KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD. I HAD A SORT OF TECHNICAL QUESTION FOR JOYCE. I WAS NEITHER A LAWYER IN ALABAMA NOR IN L.A., BUT I AM KIND OF CURIOUS, HOW DOES -- LET'S SAY THE JUDGE GETS TO THIS POINT WHERE SHE SAYS, YOU KNOW, "I HAVE TO ISSUE A PROTECTIVE ORDER OR GAG ORDER." HOW DOES THAT WORK IN THIS CONTEXT? TRUMP IS STILL A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT. HE IS STILL RUNNING AGAINST MIKE PENCE, WHO WILL LIKELY BE A WITNESS IN THIS TRIAL. HOW DO YOU STOP HIM? WHERE IS THE -- HOW DO THEY DRAW A LINE THAT SAYS, "NO, YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT YOUR PROSECUTION, EVEN THOUGH IT IS A CENTRAL PART OF YOUR ELECTION STRATEGY, OR YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT MIKE PENCE, EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE RUNNING AGAINST HIM?" ? >> APPARENTLY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAD PRACTICE LAW IN LOWER ALABAMA TO APPRECIATE THE DIFFICULTY. >> THANK YOU, JOYCE. >> YOU'VE IDENTIFIED EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. TRUMP IS TALKING A LOT ABOUT HIS FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS AS A DEFENSE TO THIS LAWSUIT. FIRST AMENDMENT APPEARS IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT HERE. AS A CANDIDATE, HOW DO YOU GAG HIM WHILE HE IS RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE? THAT'S WHY JUDGE CHUTKAN, I THINK, WE'LL SEE HER TRY TO USE ALL OF THE TOOLS AT HER DISPOSAL SHORT OF A GAG ORDER. WORKING WITH THE LAWYERS, LAYING DOWN VERY CLEAR RULES FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT. THAT'S WHY THE EFFORT WAS MADE DURING HIS ARRAIGNMENT BY THE MAGISTRATE JUDGE TO ADVISE HIM NOT TO DO THIS. THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO ASK HIM TO CABIN HIS OWN BEHAVIOR RATHER THAN FORMALLY GAGGING HIM, BECAUSE OF THE IMPLICATIONS THAT THAT HAS IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS. AND THAT'S JUST A REALITY HERE. THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT TRUMP IS BEING TREATED DIFFERENTLY THAN OTHER CRIMINAL DEFENDANTS, BUT TRUMP IS ACTUALLY DIFFERENT THAN OTHER CRIMINAL DEFENDANTS IN THIS ONE REGARD. HE WILL HAVE TO HAVE A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. HE CAN CRITICIZE MIKE PENCE. BUT WHAT HE CAN'T DO AND WHERE THAT LINE EXISTS IS HE CAN'T INTIMIDATE HIM FROM TESTIFYING. ULTIMATELY, HE CAN'T TAINT THE JURY POOL. THAT LINE IS NOT A BLACK AND WHITE ONE. IT WILL BE MORE ART THAN SCIENCE DISTERNING IT. SO THIS IS A COMPLICATED PROBLEM. DON'T WANT TO PRETEND
